Tarot Mafia

My d1 voting streak is over :(

f7 btw so we need to vote correctly and all together

what are people thinking right now?

Maplechora cannot possibly be the only one posting full lists here

I shot sunbae btw with maples card. I don't even wanna claim it ngl but I probs should rofl. I suppose I can explain it altho I don't really like explaining why I thought a villager was a wolf cuz it was evidently wrong but anyway. I already read had re-read d1-d2 and umm, I basically got reminded of why I was so sus of them early on and thought that was still valid.

He was also was pretty sure(?) about saying Wisdom looked good off benneh the day before so it kinda made sense to me to shoot him, but it's probably stupid reasoning. And I also just kinda believed when knights said Sunbae should be seeing him as town. I don't know how well these players know each other unfortunately but in general I believe these kinda takes.

And also to be honest. I really hoped if I shot wrong that the game would immediately end so I would be saved of the embarassment. alas.

Monte is probably my highest TR. Yesterdays EOD felt towny, todays SOD also feels towny (seems genuinely uninformed that the vig was not done by wolf). After seeing Gemma died, I am not sure if I was totally clowning on copreading bop, I might have been. I have more reads but mostly they come down to everyone else feels like a wolf to me.

I am a VT btw. I have been mulling over why insomnia actually did v-read vanta, as Gemma squinted at that read, and after I reading I kinda get it felt fake lmao, he said Vanta looks to have a genuine flow or something (i would need to read again just speaking out of memory now), and then I looked at Vantas wolf game over on MU and it also sounded "fine" to me so I didn't get it.

and i will make no secret of it, the fact that insomnia virtually dodged like 3 EoDs in a row in varying degrees and no prior warning has been bothering me. is it wolfy? no clue. but it's certainly not helping keeping up trust. so at this point I have been mostly clinging to Arctic and ladd saying he was a villager.

https://i.imgur.com/DZOn8ne.png

let me consult the chart......

Maple has looked super wolfy to me socially despite having giving me a card and I'm just kinda "sheeping" whatever (i suppose the inventor mech IS kinda >rand v? Like I genuinely have no fucking clue. I did however also not forget what bopolis said about the PGO being a wolf tech, no one talked about that ever again and thats how it goes) but I'll actually be surprised if he flips town. So the bottom line is everyone but Monte is a wolf in my eyes. (inb4 monte is a wolf then just whatever tbh).

Ig we have no hammer so

Vote: Wisdom If wrong GGs it wasnt meant to be. If right we probably still also lose idk what to do.

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Originally Posted by Maple

https://i.imgur.com/DZOn8ne.png

let me consult the chart......

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this is hilarious tell me when you found out.

im actually stunlocked right now

i have never been so frozen in a game of werewolf

this is what i get for pushing knights and dolby i dont even think im allowed to complain

why *not* shoot wisdom last night?

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Originally Posted by Sunbae

So here's the issue:

Am I willing to bet the game on this Wisdom/Maple v/v read I have?

Ugh idk. Watching all the dead villagers roll in after losing to Wisdom or Maple would make me feel like I failed. They've been adamant that those two need to die and it would be incredibly selfish to just say nah to that.

But also, that's just ... what I believe? and I have more information now than they did when they died. So maybe I am supposed to roll with it. Trust myself and my ability to read players. I've never been afraid of looking silly (side note: me saying things that are wild or silly is a good way to town read me because I'm way more hesitant to say things like that as a wolf when as a villager I just believe it and go) but I'm also washed and rusty you know so bleh. Also, I don't even know if I have the threadpull to convince anyone anyways if I want to shield.

I wish I did it for Ladd. Is it just overcorrecting to do it now? It's tough spot for me.

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I'm not gunna dig all up the posts but one of the main reason is sunbae was pushing to get out of the Wisdom/Maple PoE earlier so if wisdom flipped wolf I was always gonna hard wolfread him anyway.

Bruh it's 2am and I'm sitting in my kittycat PJs, staring at my phone, wondering where it all went so wrong

Early childhood, most likely.

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Originally Posted by grr

I'm not gunna dig all up the posts but one of the main reason is sunbae was pushing to get out of the Wisdom/Maple PoE earlier so if wisdom flipped wolf I was always gonna hard wolfread him anyway.

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Then like why go into today voting wisdom then?

If you shot sunbae based on a reads based same check, why not either clear out the poe slot or protect the second half of the difference check?

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Originally Posted by Maple

Then like why go into today voting wisdom then?

If you shot sunbae based on a reads based same check, why not either clear out the poe slot or protect the second half of the difference check?

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so u think after a failed shot the first thing i do is ignore what everyone else has been saying was correct. idk i dont really care you solving me cuz honestly it just convinced me more that you are a wolf because you know i am a pretty obvious read without having to inspect my deeper logic or actions.

Bro are you kidding me?

Your actions have 0 logical consistency here.

You see that, right?

I gave you a fucking gun how am I EVER a wolf?

Why not have this reconsideration after knights died?

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Originally Posted by Maple

Bro are you kidding me?

Your actions have 0 logical consistency here.

You see that, right?

I gave you a fucking gun how am I EVER a wolf?

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idk? i hoped OTHERS would tell me but I have given up on that like, n2 or something.

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Originally Posted by Maple

Why not have this reconsideration after knights died?

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wdym?

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Originally Posted by Vanta Black

I mean, I WISH I could claim a vig shot, but no.

Okay, I asked for a card, and I got TWO. I think it's late enough in the game to say that one was a protective and the other, which by the sound of it shoulda been a vig or something, was not, but is merely a modifier to another action, and I couldn't use them both at the same time. I used the protective on someone who is still alive, but I don't know if it did anything. In light of two kills I'm wondering again about this evasive arsonist, which I'd pretty much written off as either never here or dead.

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If Ender is wolf, venta must always be a partner

Doesn't go both ways sadly so it isn't exactly a same check I don't think

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Originally Posted by grr

wdym?

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We killed knights over wisdom in a tied vote. We killed a villager over wisdom. Why not have that be the moment where you say "perhaps I should resolve this centuries old wagon"?

I see no difference between killing knights and killing sunbae wrt "make me reconsider on wisdom"

I cant really do world building here. if ur town insonmia/venta/wisdom maybe makes sense based on the little i remember but its like insomnia snowed everyone then and im not even sure if im buying that myself and im still trying to wrap my head around how the he just disappears from the scene several EoDs.

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Originally Posted by Maple

We killed knights over wisdom in a tied vote. We killed a villager over wisdom. Why not have that be the moment where you say "perhaps I should resolve this centuries old wagon"?

I see no difference between killing knights and killing sunbae wrt "make me reconsider on wisdom"

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honestly the genuine response is throwing my hands in the air and saying "idk man". lol

Yeah that's probably the best answer you can reasonably give here

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Originally Posted by Maple

f7 btw so we need to vote correctly and all together

what are people thinking right now?

Maplechora cannot possibly be the only one posting full lists here

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vote wisdom and if it's wrong, wasn't meant to be

Grr if you're v and your mont read is correct the possible teams are

Ender venta insom

Or

Venta wisdom insom

Right?

I cant really see ender vanta wisdom since that's sort of an insane bus esp when it goes to a rand

i really do think it's just 2 alive but maybe im intoxicated

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Originally Posted by insomnia

i really do think it's just 2 alive but maybe im intoxicated

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I was thinking about this

And uh

If rask was full nk and it's a team of 5, one of the wolves is highly likely lost

If rask was some other form of neutral, then it's a full wolf team

And if it's a team of 4, a miss today doesn't end the game

I'm willing to just lose to Ben being lost, quite frankly

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Originally Posted by Maple

Grr if you're v and your mont read is correct the possible teams are

Ender venta insom

Or

Venta wisdom insom

Right?

I cant really see ender vanta wisdom since that's sort of an insane bus esp when it goes to a rand

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ngl I dont know why I would exclude a wisdom bus if wisdom is a wolf.

I think rask was SK

the flavor can make him arso but idk why he would ever be claiming a kill d2 unless it wasn't his in a closed setup that 99% has a villa vig. his syn read was genuine, he wasn't a wolf, so he can just keep posting / solving and change the course without instantly claiming, but i think he did that cuz it was the easier / shorter route

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Originally Posted by insomnia

i really do think it's just 2 alive but maybe im intoxicated

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why do u think this i almost never play large setups. i need references i feel like only 2 alive means we got a lot more leeway than we should have?

I mean, a Gemma NK here really makes vanta look terrible, im not sure whether that is intended

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Originally Posted by grr

why do u think this i almost never play large setups. i need references i feel like only 2 alive means we got a lot more leeway than we should have?

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for the life of me i have no clue what this wolfteam is doing if it's 3 alive

i guess a team of 3 just doesn't seem possible to me after PoEing and all that

grr / maple (he wins if wolf, i don't have the patience to solo this against everyone who defended him so you can blame them if he's wolf)

it would mean 3 in wisdom / ender / vanta / monte

Im kinda aware now that i must be wrong on one of ender or vanta, not sure if on both. The thinking is that in a 2 man team, mont was bussing wisdom hardcore yesterday when there are plenty other avenues for not bussing, so that team doesn't make sense to me

Hopefully in a 3 man, the team is bussing wisdom and knowing today is the last day she lives

The most dangerous world is vanta / ender

like idk, for any 3 of those people i struggle to see wtf their gameplan is

The most common theme in there is that they would all be bussing wisdom. I feel like if wisdom was villa, the opinions would differ a lot more and at least someone would express a v read

I just can't think of a 3 man team and wth they must be doing if wisdom is not a wolf

It'd mean vanta / ender / mont and that's the only option offered by PoE fmpov and legit the only one

And it just feels so wrong for whatever reason

Like what, they're all just bandwagonning wisdom and not even splitting their views apart? I think they were all voting wisdom yesterday, no?

I'm going to be called so many obscenities in dvc if I level myself into killing vanta if the team is like

Insom/mont/wisdom

Ye manti, a pretty big potentially bad problem for you is that you gave vanta 1 card and ender apparently another

So we need to decide what to do with them today cuz if they are a wolf and got a vig, it's gg even in a 2 man team

Can we all agree that there is no viable 3 man team without wisdom in it?

Just so I know where we are all standing

Indeed that is a problem, yes.

I swapped off sunbae thinking he was gonna die in the night

Fuckin monkey's paw ass night phase I swear

The non-wisdom world is

Vanta+ender+1 (but fypov this appears unlikely unless it's the funniest world of all time)

Or

grr+insom+1, but apparently I have notes pushing against this world who knows

grr / myself world is just not possible

everyone with meta on both of us had us villa pretty comfortably, you just tip your hat and congratulate us, for we would have brought winter during the summer brav

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Originally Posted by insomnia

for the life of me i have no clue what this wolfteam is doing if it's 3 alive

i guess a team of 3 just doesn't seem possible to me after PoEing and all that

grr / maple (he wins if wolf, i don't have the patience to solo this against everyone who defended him so you can blame them if he's wolf)

it would mean 3 in wisdom / ender / vanta / monte

Im kinda aware now that i must be wrong on one of ender or vanta, not sure if on both. The thinking is that in a 2 man team, mont was bussing wisdom hardcore yesterday when there are plenty other avenues for not bussing, so that team doesn't make sense to me

Hopefully in a 3 man, the team is bussing wisdom and knowing today is the last day she lives

The most dangerous world is vanta / ender

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ok but. you are excluding maple for pragmatic purposes which is fine and all. i just dont get how your head goes internally to "3 wolf team doesnt seem possible" i suppose its not how i think about these things. when i clear someone to make the game simpler for me i still dont rule them out when i think about how many wolves there can be so the thought "only 2 wolves" wouldnt cross my mind.

i suppose i generally just find it pingy when people talk the number of wolves down rather than up, cause its generally a red flag in mashes but, but maybe its just different strokes for different folks idk.

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Originally Posted by insomnia

grr / myself world is just not possible

everyone with meta on both of us had us villa pretty comfortably, you just tip your hat and congratulate us, for we would have brought winter during the summer brav

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I like this world I choose to live in it now. I would finally get my award or recognition for something...

and the reason vanta / ender / +1 fmpov due to poe can only be mont, which is why im saying it's extremely unlikely cuz in that world

they're all just bandwagonning on a villager instead of splitting their solves to be in better positions

in addition to how funny that team would be

so yeah, im at the conclusion no living 3 man team can exist without wisdom (this is by going with grr villa read and maple hoping he's v due to the insane wolfsiding if he is not that i just can't go against unless im 100% sure on him being a wolf, which simply is never gonna be a thing this dayphase, maybe if we get to f3 and he's alive then i'd consider it)

well im taking maple as a villa due to the 2 prs who decided to go against consensus all game for thin reasons imo

we have to follow their judgement cuz if we lunch and we are wrong, then it would have all been for nothing

and like i said, i just can't lunch maple today over wisdom even with that.

im still set on lunching wisdom, mechanically speaking i think it's the correct lunch in a closed setup

however, the biggest issue remains vanta. because if they are a wolf, chances are the game ends if they got a good card, so we need to be sure we all v read them

and ender gave them a card so that could be pairing as well

btw monte specifically asked to not receive a card yesterday for a p. genuine reason imo.

call it a dumb micro ping but i dont think he does that w/w with maple (somewhat unlikely) but he defo doesnt do it if maple v and monte w.

Vote: Wisdom

For once I think I actually was in the right side of an EOD. Wild times. I reckon Wisdom has been KP that wolves have been dragging through the game.

Benneh was either lost or that was a setup with the spew. Either way idc I just think Wisdom has to contain a wolf.

think we'd benefit from everyone posting a list and any important thoughts to go along with it
@Wisdom @EnderWiggin @Montmorency @grr @Maple
@VantaBlack

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maple

sorry knights, HUGE punt

that's on me, i am not beating the washed allegations at this rate
@Vanta Black @EnderWiggin

actions?

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Gave a card to Vanta.

Further thoughts pending what else is said in catchup.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by insomnia

think we'd benefit from everyone posting a list and any important thoughts to go along with it
@Wisdom @EnderWiggin @Montmorency @grr @Maple
@VantaBlack

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Like a sus list?

I'm still pending catchup but my overnight list that I reached was like:

Wisdom > Probably Maple > One of Grr/Insom?

But given Maple gave a card to Vanta I'm wondering if it's more like Wisdom > Maple > Vanta

Monty I think gets a lot of town cred if Wisdom does flip wolf given they've tried to fight the tide for days to get them voted out when no one else stuck out the tide like em.

Also I still think Monty's play is towny kinda.

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Originally Posted by grr

I shot sunbae btw with maples card. I don't even wanna claim it ngl but I probs should rofl. I suppose I can explain it altho I don't really like explaining why I thought a villager was a wolf cuz it was evidently wrong but anyway. I already read had re-read d1-d2 and umm, I basically got reminded of why I was so sus of them early on and thought that was still valid.

He was also was pretty sure(?) about saying Wisdom looked good off benneh the day before so it kinda made sense to me to shoot him, but it's probably stupid reasoning. And I also just kinda believed when knights said Sunbae should be seeing him as town. I don't know how well these players know each other unfortunately but in general I believe these kinda takes.

And also to be honest. I really hoped if I shot wrong that the game would immediately end so I would be saved of the embarassment. alas.

Monte is probably my highest TR. Yesterdays EOD felt towny, todays SOD also feels towny (seems genuinely uninformed that the vig was not done by wolf). After seeing Gemma died, I am not sure if I was totally clowning on copreading bop, I might have been. I have more reads but mostly they come down to everyone else feels like a wolf to me.

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Why did you wait through til last night to shoot? Given I assume you could've shot the night you received the card?

Ngl I would've holstered a shot last night purely because if wolves have 3 people left and 2 kp (Which it seems they've had in previous nights) you can lose the game if you for example shoot a town.

But shooting the previous night would've been fine.

Nyeh maybe this is nitpicky and confbias-y.

https://i.imgflip.com/90xzjr.jpg

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Originally Posted by insomnia

i really do think it's just 2 alive but maybe im intoxicated

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I did think about this last night.

It's like the one world where Wisdom is town probably.

But I'd rather play as if we're at lylo than consider non-lylo worlds and lose lmao.

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Originally Posted by insomnia

like idk, for any 3 of those people i struggle to see wtf their gameplan is

The most common theme in there is that they would all be bussing wisdom. I feel like if wisdom was villa, the opinions would differ a lot more and at least someone would express a v read

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I feel like there were a lot of people expressing v reads in between the wagons?

Like I was repping a V spew read on Wisdom for a few days before I decided it was a bad read.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maple

I'm going to be called so many obscenities in dvc if I level myself into killing vanta if the team is like

Insom/mont/wisdom

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If Mont/Wis is w/w that is a hell bus and a half.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by insomnia

Ye manti, a pretty big potentially bad problem for you is that you gave vanta 1 card and ender apparently another

So we need to decide what to do with them today cuz if they are a wolf and got a vig, it's gg even in a 2 man team

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I didn't get a card.

Grr and Vanta were the last two cards according to Maple.

Huh. I'm up to date and I don't feel drained from the process. Wild.

I'm gonna grab some food then I'll bring up some of the stuff I saw that made me think of the whole Maple/Wisdom idea.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EnderWiggin

Why did you wait through til last night to shoot? Given I assume you could've shot the night you received the card?

Ngl I would've holstered a shot last night purely because if wolves have 3 people left and 2 kp (Which it seems they've had in previous nights) you can lose the game if you for example shoot a town.

But shooting the previous night would've been fine.

Nyeh maybe this is nitpicky and confbias-y.

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I'm not rly here rn but.

The card was backup on a dead player hence it took another phase for me to shoot. I backed up Arctic (I REALLY didnt want to i wanted to back up a cop so i didnt have to shoot anyone but Arctic was the only one that kind of hard hinted at having a role in the first place and I wasnt sure about sheep who was speculated to be a PR and bop who just seemed like "probably" cop to me, and I didn't wanna whiff it on a VT so I took Arctic.)

There was just a lot of stuff going on through my head in how to handle that becuz due to the nature of the card wolves wouldnt know exactly what power i got (Arctic was a tracker with like a secondary comeback vigilante ability which i used last night, Arctic never shot anyone as he didnt have the power available at that point, don't ask me who he tracked I skimmed and wasn't sure).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grr

I'm not rly here rn but.

The card was backup on a dead player hence it took another phase for me to shoot. I backed up Arctic (I REALLY didnt want to i wanted to back up a cop so i didnt have to shoot anyone but Arctic was the only one that kind of hard hinted at having a role in the first place and I wasnt sure about sheep who was speculated to be a PR and bop who just seemed like "probably" cop to me, and I didn't wanna whiff it on a VT so I took Arctic.)

There was just a lot of stuff going on through my head in how to handle that becuz due to the nature of the card wolves wouldnt know exactly what power i got (Arctic was a tracker with like a secondary comeback vigilante ability which i used last night, Arctic never shot anyone as he didnt have the power available at that point, don't ask me who he tracked I skimmed and wasn't sure).

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That...

Makes a lot more sense. Hm.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grr

dunno what you mean.

if benneh is wolfing it would be very unlikely to be with either sunbae or dya imo. ymmv. kind of a recycled read i used in a hydra game ages ago but its probs accurate.

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While I'm sorting things and for whenever you are around:

@grr

Could you explain this D1 thought a bit?

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Originally Posted by Wisdom

Vote: Gemma

I was thinking about voting in Maple/Bop as well but it sure is about time wagons go wheeee!

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So this is the only real mention of each other D1, and then early D2:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maple

>rand village action targeting my slot, depending what this means.

Gonna laugh if this ends up being a loud douse.

Syn slipping me into top village for no reason is nagl, I'm sure ??

In any case, slotting stet and knights into v for the moment. I'm not feeling the need to go back on any of my prior v leans at this moment.

Interested in ender and wisdom to start with, thinking about some other peeps too.

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Lumps Wisdom in there at the end.

Then not much until:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wisdom

I don't have much to say except my earlier post on this page. His tunnel on me was likely coming from a town!PoV. I don't think he's w/w with Maple. That's pretty much all I got on him.

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Just throwing a w/w read out there.

Then Grr asks:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grr

@Wisdom you said you vote Vanta because everyone had something towny, which is fine.

Can you explain ummm... I hope 4 names are not too much but benneh, sunbae, maple and montecery for me then?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wisdom

I forgot about both Mont existing when I wrote that. Ben too, really, but it wouldn't have changed my point.

While it's not worth much, I thought that Benneh in a few bursts of posts (214 to 376 in his iso) varied shitposting with solving in a way that I associate with town PoV, but it's not worth much and doubt it's towny for him specifically.

Maple is mostly a bs read. I liked his talk about getting reversed but when Jan started talking about it I kinda changed my mind, doing mech stuff to mislead is exactly what I expect from w!Maple.

Sunbae just sounds pure.

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And I just have to insert:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sunbae

i hope the wolves arent something like benneh/maple/wisdom cause id be playing very bad if it was

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(Sorry Sunbae but this is amusing in context of what I'm arguing in this post.)

At this point a wagon is floating on Maple. Wisdom ignores it. Instead votes Gemma and pushes hard for Gemma being sus.

Then Benneh dismisses the sus on the "cred grabby" vote by Maple:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nebjiamn

maple looks worst but i dont really know how much we glean anyway since syn popped up pretty quickly from what i can tell. i doubt wolves were capable of responding to that in any kind of strategic way regardless of rask's alignment

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The wagon on Maple starts growing after Jan's PR claim, Benneh's reaction:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nebjiamn

Vote: Raskolnikov


fine giving ender some space, would rather go rask than jan but could also vote maple ig

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Maple then makes a comment about FF/Arso "if they're real", never really addresses a read on Wisdom.

Finally mentions a read on Wisdom:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maple

vote: dolby

Just going to reiterate, for the people in the back, that my role is confirmable and therefore selfresolving.

If I call bop Arctic knights sunbae stett v
And I call wisdom Jan v

That leaves me with 11 leftover. So I'm basically halfway there. Granted, I feel like there's a very real chance that I'm pocketed as fuck.

Continuing to yolo shit out

So sorting names into two categories

Ben grr ender gemma Mont venti

Ladd rask dolby dya

I'm missing one person. But we can call those rough unordered tiers. With the top tier being "I have any conceivable reason to call this person a villager but I don't personally buy it" and "I have no real reason to call this person a villager" respectively

So I suppose this mysterious 11th person belongs in the second group

Yall I got bad news. My solve this game is dogshit.

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Throwaway townread. Still no further read on Maple from Wisdom despite calling them wolfy a few times.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nebjiamn

Hmmm

Well, I was thinking rask but he also claimed

I’d lean maple rn but I kinda wanna see what happens over the. Text few hours

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More of Benneh being unsubstantially interested in pushing Maple but sussing them. Benneh DOES then jump on Maple when Maple claims self-resolvable.

I'm not sure how to parse that just yet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wisdom

Saw the claim summary above. Maple's posting is pinging me. What's the current vote count?

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Wisdom, who had stated an earlier sus on Maple, states this again when the wagon runs away on D2. This is before Rask saves the day for Maple.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wisdom

Yeah makes sense. If there's something who'd fake claim to live another day it'd be Maple. What was the context before he claimed, was he pushed or was it from a safe position in threadstate?

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Very cautiously said for someone who has tentatively sussed Maple literally every mention so far.

Rask then blows up with Dya and Benneh follows on, but this isn't really indicative of anything I think.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nebjiamn

Vote: maple


so much for feedback at EOD lol

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This does give me a little pause, but Benneh was also after Wisdom at this point. I think he intended to bus them at best if they are wolves.

We are now D3 though, and Wisdom and Maple still haven't really done much about each other except a static one-line repeat basically.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maple

Lol

Gave Arctic the card cause I figured he wouldn't die in the night.

Oopsiepoopsie

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And I still think this is fucking wolfy on reread.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wisdom

I'm starting to suspect ladd is a wolf who's pocketing/whiteknighting me tbh, but it's hard to explain why

But when I think that there's 3-4 wolves in 14 players (right?) and that he's alive it's easy to think he's a wolf.

Like, the easiest world is it's like Gemma/Vanta/Dolby/Monte but it's never that easy. Ladd's easy to tinfoil, and then we have Knights and Benneh who I've got no clue on, and Ender who I can't remember a single d2 post from but I read he claimed pr.

Dya's town. Grr's probably town. I still want to think Jan is my D1 Town Clear and won't re-evaluate unless alive end game, if he's town pr he'll just die eventually anyway. And Maple who I don't know what his deal is.

My goal for today is finding 8 villagers, I have 3 right now +2 potential pr's. I'm soon done with work so can put some more work in when I get home.

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And then Wisdom's first mention on D3 is above.

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Summary

Basically Wisdom and Maple have like sideways mentioned or sussed each other, but when wagons or pushes went to either, neither did much about it. (Note: Maple has only mentioned Wisdom in a towny light up to half-way through D3?)

About my only unsurety is Benneh did push super hard for Maple EOD2 and D3 early. I'm tossing up the chances that Maple started D3 lolcatting but then realised there was a chance to actually come out alive and Benneh's was a planned bus.

As it stands, though, Vanta/Grr cannot be BOTH teammates to a wolf!Maple.

So the question is:

Would w!Maple give cards to Non-Wolves to grab cred more?

I'm not entirely as sold as I thought I'd be with this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grr

The interesting part is that maple has called me a wolf in the last 3 v/v games we played and or something and at some point doing literally 0 course correction starts feeling in bad faith. Like normally you'd think a person would go like "ok i misread that person every game maybe ill just kinda not try this time" but this guy really keeps doing it forever it seems.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by nebjiamn

w/w interaction iyam

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maple

imagine?

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This sequence is hilarious if w/w.

But ngl that grr/Maple back and forth kinda feels unpairing.

Yes I got distracted shush.

Also Benneh + Maple were the two most-notable "Why has Syn put these so high" people that were pointed out.

Maple ignores the Syn wagon almost entirely. Votes at the end but basically hasn't mentioned it before that.

If Wisdom/Benneh were wolf with Syn/Maple then Maple was about the only one really active at EOD. Which vibes with Benneh trying to dismiss the sus on the cred-grabby vote.

Benneh also did a 180 on Maple after the self-resolving comment, as if that was a flag in front of a bull.

(And yes Maple has the most cred-grabby vote of D1.)

Anyway I'm rambly at this point and I'm very much living in the Maple/Wisdom world rn.

Will try to think of other worlds tomorrow in case I'm levelling myself, but need sleep.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grr

btw monte specifically asked to not receive a card yesterday for a p. genuine reason imo.

call it a dumb micro ping but i dont think he does that w/w with maple (somewhat unlikely) but he defo doesnt do it if maple v and monte w.

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You sure you're not trying to pocket? Not that I want you to SR me, but last EOD I did request a card, while giving fair warning that I might use a vig for a hero shot rather than a difference check.

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

Best to give it to me, as long as it's not a vig, because I know exactly who to vig and it's not consensus*. Otherwise, I don't know, 69 with Ender, who cares anymore.

*Alternatively I just vig the thunderdome survivor

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To elaborate, I was mostly expecting Wisdom to go over that phase. So if t-Wisdom, I probably shoot knights, but if m-Wisdom, I probably shoot Sunbae.

If that sounds suboptimal, well, it seems to be the same calculation you applied more or less, and I think I've only ever been vig ~twice if you count SK. One of those times I wasted a slot-limited vig that was limited to the exact guy I pushed D1 and was planning to push D2, because I thought I could kill two birds with one stone (but didn't).

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Originally Posted by EnderWiggin

Like a sus list?

I'm still pending catchup but my overnight list that I reached was like:

Wisdom > Probably Maple > One of Grr/Insom?

But given Maple gave a card to Vanta I'm wondering if it's more like Wisdom > Maple > Vanta

Monty I think gets a lot of town cred if Wisdom does flip wolf given they've tried to fight the tide for days to get them voted out when no one else stuck out the tide like em.

Also I still think Monty's play is towny kinda.

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Fypov if I am a wolf, grr should more or less literally always be a wolf, given I gave them a gun. An absolutely nuts thing to do in w/v worlds, especially given how tight the game is. Not to mention, the shot on sunbae floats between the "batshit" and "goldilocks" zones for a wolf vigi. So in that hypothetical ghe team would be wisdom maple grr or maple grr mont

I'm also annoyed, I *really* should have gotten dya to confirm my eod meta before they died because it I'd ostensibly a bad look if you don't view it through the lens of eod mechanics.

To repeat what I said prior:

You go into the eod. The wagons are 1 person you're v reading and a few wagons you don't really care about. The other two major wagons, rask + syn, each have pretty nice looking wagons. In order to promote a more active EoD, vote the cw to bring the wagons closer together and increase the probability of movement. When the day ends you either chill *or* you swap over to the major wagon to lock it in and remove the possibility of a chaotic cfd.

The vote positions of specifically newcomb and bop pretty significantly contributed to me more or less shrugging and calling it a coinflip.

I think an important note is that once mewcomb selects a slot for death that early into the game, it's more or less always going to die. Either newcomb dies in the night and the legacy is followed, or newcomb lives and just kills them the next day. I think my actions that eod are going to do very little in the gran scheme of things when viewed through that lens.



*anyway*

I see where insom is coming from with thinking we're in a world of 2. The world building is *incredibly* tight right now. I'm between splitting the difference or looking at the compromise at the moment. The lack of info is mildly rough and frankly idk if anyone alive can reasonably post themselves clear to me at this point (based on raw words today alone, I just don't see it). So I'm currently hedging a bit.

I'm continuing my rereading at a pace far worse than I'd like.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

You sure you're not trying to pocket? Not that I want you to SR me, but last EOD I did request a card, while giving fair warning that I might use a vig for a hero shot rather than a difference check.



To elaborate, I was mostly expecting Wisdom to go over that phase. So if t-Wisdom, I probably shoot knights, but if m-Wisdom, I probably shoot Sunbae.

If that sounds suboptimal, well, it seems to be the same calculation you applied more or less, and I think I've only ever been vig ~twice if you count SK. One of those times I wasted a slot-limited vig that was limited to the exact guy I pushed D1 and was planning to push D2, because I thought I could kill two birds with one stone (but didn't).

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Okay only this moment do I get what you mean by 69 with ender

Yes, that perhaps would have been decent, but us stacking isn't literally the worst I suppose.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EnderWiggin

Also Benneh + Maple were the two most-notable "Why has Syn put these so high" people that were pointed out.

Maple ignores the Syn wagon almost entirely. Votes at the end but basically hasn't mentioned it before that.

If Wisdom/Benneh were wolf with Syn/Maple then Maple was about the only one really active at EOD. Which vibes with Benneh trying to dismiss the sus on the cred-grabby vote.

Benneh also did a 180 on Maple after the self-resolving comment, as if that was a flag in front of a bull.

(And yes Maple has the most cred-grabby vote of D1.)

Anyway I'm rambly at this point and I'm very much living in the Maple/Wisdom world rn.

Will try to think of other worlds tomorrow in case I'm levelling myself, but need sleep.

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What I think is, with both of you being PRs and ruling out the m-m world out of policy, one of you just about has to die tonight, right? If Maple is scum, you will certainly die, though it doesn't prove anything about Maple in itself if you die.

Story so far:

So Maple and Ender both gave Vanta cards last night, and Vanta can't say exactly what they were. Huh.

And Maple gave grr a card the night before - a vig - but grr didn't use it or report it until last night.

I can swallow a lot, but what the hell is going on here.
@Maple , why gift Vanta and not me if both of us have been in your POE since D3/4? Why not gift Sunbae N3/4, since you had a solid town read on him?
@EnderWiggin , why gift Vanta anything after posting the following last EOD?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EnderWiggin

I feel bad for the fact that I'm POEing Vanta harder as time goes on. But also yeah they're definitely slipping into priority solving slot for me.

Especially if I stick to my gut on Spew Reads.

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You gave the most LHF/UTR player left, who was also in your POE, a card.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLLfXtq_Uog
@grr , I can in theory understand targeting Sunbae. You POEd him, and he's a more difficult ouster than Wisdom. It was a bad choice with Wisdom still in play, but it's conceivable. But then, why not use your shot N4?

[I read your "the card was backup" post but my brain can't conceive of what that means mechanically. Like, it wasn't a vig but a chance to absorb a dead player's power, and you absorbed Arctic's, who had an unused vig? Could you paraphrase the instructions?]

Everyone's claims today are sending me. What are the odds of Vanta getting stacked gifts and grr holstering a vig. I want us to either have a perfect game from now on (or we lose), or just lose outright this round.

Arctic shot stett, right?

Like, that's the only thing that makes sense.

Thought stett defending rask om a 3p flip was tmi.

Idk does that like matter?

Killed bop for having the best solve and as the player most likely to catch Ben the next day, something like that.

Ben was meant to go deep, then?

The kill on ladd was so opportunistic but I can see it as ~safe enough I suppose, if you're making the snap choice and plan on shoving the blame onto dya

There's definitely something here idk

grr, Insomnia, my feeling on Insomnia is that unless it's some kind of sheer power scum team like Maple-Ender-Insom, he has of the living players the best voting record, good engagement with the thread, good tone, and no bad associatives with neb that I can remember. Wisdom preflip ordains well for him.

My feeling on Maple/Ender is that if Wisdom is town, Ender was the deepscum. We have pretty much 100% confirmation that Maple is indeed an inventor, whether or not he's anything else, and pretty good confidence that Ender did copy his power to become an inventor himself (originally being an upgrader). If they're both scum, this is true fancy play, having very odd Mafia PRs in an inventer and an upgrader (VERY odd role spread for mafs) both hardclaim on D2 and coopt the town leaders and just never die. Legendary audacity if they're both scum, and legendary play even if Maple alone is scum. ggwp Mafia victory. So I think Ender alone being scum is the most plausible, after both just being town. Ender is mostly cleared by Wisdom flipping red, so with that preflip in mind I can't waste time suspecting him.

Even if the recent claims are skibidi toilet gibberish.

So as I said, all that strictly limits my POE, notwithstanding that I have reasons not to POE anyone other than Wisdom. If Wisdom is a hit, I may just lock Ender and Insom through F3, and if not, it doesn't matter.

As to the game structure, 17-1-4 seems unusually anti-Mafia for a modern setup. I don't recall that Visor gives LYLO alerts as a rule, so it's best to assume 5 maf, lost or not. If one's lost, I might be fated to endgame with t-Ender and get MLed.

I can't keep all the antipair worlds being presented straight. But for now I guess I can jive with the following (antipairs) in descending order:

Wisdom-Insomnia
Wisdom-Ender
Ender-Maple
Wisdom-Vanta
Insomnia-grr


Of course, that would leave exclusively grr-Maple, which sounds absurd enough that I'd want to throw the game. Maple-Ender and Maple-grr are so bogus to me that if Maple is scum I choose to lose.

I find Ender-Vanta-Wisdom hard to integrate with how both slots have related to Wisdom. Is there anything linking Vanta and Ender together besides last night's gift?

Once more returning to Wisdom-Vanta-grr, which :shrug:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maple

Arctic shot stett, right?

Like, that's the only thing that makes sense.

Thought stett defending rask om a 3p flip was tmi.

Idk does that like matter?

Killed bop for having the best solve and as the player most likely to catch Ben the next day, something like that.

Ben was meant to go deep, then?

The kill on ladd was so opportunistic but I can see it as ~safe enough I suppose, if you're making the snap choice and plan on shoving the blame onto dya

There's definitely something here idk

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What is this in reference to, my post above?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EnderWiggin

Would w!Maple give cards to Non-Wolves to grab cred more?

I'm not entirely as sold as I thought I'd be with this.

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Maple's history is:

Self
Arctic
Jan
grr
Vanta

I guess a Maple-grr team could just be working a narrative. Y'know, Maple gifted something to a partner, it was no good or grr quietly used it N4, N5 was just killing townies, they need a story for what happened with the gift, so they make up some convoluted excuse.

In that case Arctic gift would be a lie and the only confirmed instance of Maple gifting a townie would be Jan, which while still a very intense gesture, could be part of Maple gambiting to buy time.

Alternatively, maybe the scum PR gains unlocks from using its power, but then the same could apply to you.

But then again again, Sunbae's last leans were:

Quote:

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Maple town
Ender town
Grr town
Insomnia town

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So why the hell wouldn't Mafia kill an actual PR? Which is a then again again again. Sunbae wasn't so strong that SPK could justify skipping one of Maple-Ender, and I've lost track of what conclusion any of that could lead to.

Maybe that Sunbae is plausibly not a Mafia kill, because there's no advantage to killing someone just for POEing Wisdom-Vanta, which most of the list was doing at the time.

Quote:

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Maybe that Sunbae is plausibly not a Mafia kill, because there's no advantage to killing someone just for POEing Wisdom-Vanta, which most of the list was doing at the time.

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I mean in the exact case that it's Wisdom-Vanta, at that. If they're not the team, or just Wisdom, there's nothing gained at all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

Story so far:

(1.) So Maple and Ender both gave Vanta cards last night, and Vanta can't say exactly what they were. Huh.

And Maple gave grr a card the night before - a vig - but grr didn't use it or report it until last night.

I can swallow a lot, but what the hell is going on here.
@Maple , why gift Vanta and not me if both of us have been in your POE since D3/4? Why not gift Sunbae N3/4, since you had a solid town read on him?
@EnderWiggin , why gift Vanta anything after posting the following last EOD?



You gave the most LHF/UTR player left, who was also in your POE, a card.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLLfXtq_Uog
@grr , I can in theory understand targeting Sunbae. You POEd him, and he's a more difficult ouster than Wisdom. It was a bad choice with Wisdom still in play, but it's conceivable. But then, why not use your shot N4?

[I read your "the card was backup" post but my brain can't conceive of what that means mechanically. Like, it wasn't a vig but a chance to absorb a dead player's power, and you absorbed Arctic's, who had an unused vig? Could you paraphrase the instructions?]

Everyone's claims today are sending me. What are the odds of Vanta getting stacked gifts and grr holstering a vig. I want us to either have a perfect game from now on (or we lose), or just lose outright this round.

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My claim is pretty straight forward, even when arctics role is a bit weird.

I don't have time right now to check what Vanta said about what he received, but I knew exactly what my card was when i received it.

I was able to copy the ability of a dead player due to the card Maple gave to me.

The dead player I targetted in the night i received the card was Arctic. His ability is tracker, and if two town players get eliminated back to back, he would lose that ability and become a 1-shot vigilante. That has not occured yet when he died, but when I copied it, it did. So I ended up getting a vigshot, yes.

Don't know what you are talking about holstering, I didn't holster anything. (I never holstered anything in my life btw. I am a notorious buttonclicker lol, ok i didnt click a button here, but you know what i mean).

@EnderWiggins you asked what i thought d1 about benneh and sunbae. Well I thought benneh would have had a more joyful entry if he was wolfing with his friends d1, that was it basically.

So to make this simple. n4 i used the card. n5 i used the new ability i gained from using the card before. there was no holstering. It just took 2 phases.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maple

Arctic shot stett, right?

Like, that's the only thing that makes sense.

Thought stett defending rask om a 3p flip was tmi.

Idk does that like matter?

Killed bop for having the best solve and as the player most likely to catch Ben the next day, something like that.

Ben was meant to go deep, then?

The kill on ladd was so opportunistic but I can see it as ~safe enough I suppose, if you're making the snap choice and plan on shoving the blame onto dya

There's definitely something here idk

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there is no way arctic made any of those shots out of his volition

at best you can argue he was redirected imo, but someone made a post at some point saying arctic was essentially a tracker with a weird kp that wasn't activated at the time of his death, and that I tend to believe since i'm 99% sure he's done none of those kills (i'd say 100% but that would be mech i guess. which i don't have)

i will be teaching the art of useless / unfortunate posting after this game

hit me up if in need of guidance


anyway, im kinda stuck. mont is making some decent points

i think i explained where my head was at in the posting i've done earlier pretty clearly. the most now would be to re-eval, but as im a selfish lazy washed up player uhhhhhhh

idk i don't see this phase as anything else than just lunching wisdom. Then again that ladd flashwagon happened so i guess being more informed in case we wanna swap should be good. but would i do it even it i know it's good? hmmmm

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EnderWiggin

I feel like there were a lot of people expressing v reads in between the wagons?

Like I was repping a V spew read on Wisdom for a few days before I decided it was a bad read.

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You kept swapping votes between her and knights tho /shrug

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Originally Posted by EnderWiggin

1. I'm not inverter like Monty was claiming and Knights is now following up.

Also I think inverter is town just from how their actions have played out.

2. Fine I'll claim,

I was enhancer. Tried to hit Stett N1. That didn't work for some reason I'm still not sure of.

I was inverted N3.

I now can copy a power. I copied Maple's power (I know how it reads now which is part of why today opened with me townreading them.) and realised after doing so that this could have been a good way to check Wisdom and/or fish in the unclaimed for people.

But one of my villa reads will have a card tonight in addition to the card Maple's giving out.

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@EnderWiggin

Lets go over this. Do you have any info or indication of what your role actually *did*?

N1, you targeted stett, attempting to enhance her action. Why target stett?

N2, you holstered?

N3, you holstered? Your role changed from "Enhancer" to "Copier" overnight, as you'd be informed at SoD4.

N4, you targeted me to copy?

D5, you targeted Venta with a card, which presumably gave a protective effect. Which one?

N5, you holstered?

And today is D6.

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Okay, so can you *very specifically* claim every aspect of your role? All restrictions, stipulations, etc. And a quick thought process on why you did what you did.

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And just so I don't get no u'd

D1 - self, pgo - was looking for KP
N1 - inverted, role changed from "blind joat" into "inventor"
D2 - Arctic, unknown - was looking for a hide/commute/etc in order to get arctic alive through the night and be able to back up my claim
D3 - Jan, medic - was looking for a protection/vest/etc in order to hopefully get Jan to live the night
D4 - grr, role backup (vigi) - was looking for something like a hood, or an investigate, or something to get more info
D5 - venta, ability modifier - was looking specifically for a cop action.
D6 - Today

My restriction, in essence, is that i can choose a card but do not know what it does.

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@Vanta Black

What were the 2 cards you received, and what specifically did each of them do?

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@Wisdom

just want to confirm that you are NOT inverted?

Does anyone else wanna claim inverted?

me n1, jan n2, ender n3

We don't seem to have a n4 or n5 inversion. There's an ISO i need to check for info wrt this and will report back later. (busy atm)

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I think we can very safely believe in three worlds:

The inverter was V
The inverter was disloyal
The inverter did not exist as a player, and is purely mechanical
(the more sinister fourth option is that it's a wolf, and the wolves used it *very* weird)

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Originally Posted by grr

So to make this simple. n4 i used the card. n5 i used the new ability i gained from using the card before. there was no holstering. It just took 2 phases.

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I get it now. The claim is specific enough that, as with Maple and Ender, you would need a lot of creativity and guts to fake it. You+Maple if coordinating these claims deserve to win I guess. But then it would have to be Wisdom-Vanta at a minimum, outing themselves EOD3 alongside neb for no rational reason.

Shocking number of killing roles in this game tbh, unless there were full docs that just died early (e.g. Newcomb). Also, is this the first role that we know of that transforms conditionally on its own? Because that's similar Maple's suggestion with the inverter, that there is none and inversion was happening on a mechanical schedule rather than to PR action.

But Maple. I still don't understand - why Vanta at all? Why gift someone in your POE?

I had him much higher before reevaluating after EoD yesterday.