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The UN even has an opinion on our Sinterklaas festivities. Absolutily racist naturally, no matter that black people also celebrate it, finger->forehead. http://www.scribd.com/mobile/doc/177303852
They also celebrate it in our former colonies http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LJeUye3...%3DLJeUye3zZnU
See them being hurt by it
UN, stfu, you must
Edit: Link
It's good to know that we are tackling the important issues in the world...
"During the celebration, numerous people playing the Black Petefigure blacken their faces, wear bright red lipstick as well as afro wigs"
Wait... you guys still do the whole blackface thing?
Anyway Frag just read this thing carefully. Or at least read the bottom questions - they are requesting more information. They want to know if people have complained (Question 2), if the African community has been involved (Question 3 and 4) and then what has been done to ensure that those who have expressed that they are offended by this have their offense nullified (Question 5). Can you explain what is so objectionable about these questions?
And because Frag's instant rage demanded that he post up his link without googling first, here is an English link:
http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archive...st_stereot.php
Note this part of the link:
The letter also hints that the character of Black Pete may undermine the Netherlands’ efforts to have the Sinterklaas celebrations recognised as part of official Unesco’s immaterial cultural heritage listings.
This makes complete sense to me in that context. Hell, it makes sense to me in any context, but particularly that.
Black people celebrate it themselve it is totally harmless. In our tradition they are black because they are going down chimneys to deliver the presents. They are really the ravens of Wodan though, hijacked pagan stuff.
Edit I forgot, screw their list and screw them, catch somethin for me please.
Then that will be calmly related to the UN and they will let you go.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
You just want to be angry at the One World Government for putting white people like you down. This is nothing.
Bein extremily annoyed is just as bad as slightly angry. Same thing. The same day they as for 400 troops among some are special forces and apaches. Same UN, same dayQuote:
Originally Posted by CountArach
In Mali by the way. I haven't heard of it either.
This is just the racism inherent in Drutch culture and the chimneys and ravens are just excuses to appease those who criticize it.
I think it's time to talk about reparations. You got away in the other thread because the English were more numerous but this time you will have to pay for mocking the slaves you created. The only mitigating factor are your colonial wares like Kokosbrood, I'm willing to negotiate if I get some.
The association doesn't exist outside a few (payed) organisations. It's totally harmless it has nothing to do with slavery whatsoever. Would they still celebrate in our former colonies if it was?
Black crows = Pagan origin.
Sinterklaus = blackened by chimney soot.
? = blackened, big red lips, and "fuzzy wuzzy" hair.
I get it Frags, that you and your fellow Niederlunders may view it as nothing but a harmless frolic, but I don't see how anybody can think that the current iteration isn't, at the least, playing off a racist stereotype.
A Caucasian child showing up, dressed in that same getup you describe, at the front door of most homes in the USA this Halloween would not be getting as much candy and might be asked to leave and go ask their parents why they were not getting anything this year.
Watch the vid, they also celebrate it in our former colonies http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LJeUye3...%3DLJeUye3zZnU
A few professional activists have a problem, they start wining evey year
It used to be similar elsewhere, but they changed it to 'Elves' because they saw the inherent issue.
ive tried to stay out of this discussion, online and offline, but meh... wth.
http://pauwenwitteman.vara.nl/media/301522
this video pretty much sums up the problems of this "discussion" and makes it clear why it isnt really a "discussion" but more a monologue of 2 sides venting their emotional frustration at each other. It must be said that atleast Quinsy remained calm and tried to talk... That cant be said for everyone at the table.
The discussion is petty imo, the issue doesnt really concern me, but that doesnt mean that some of the objections raised are valid. The "chimney sweeper" excuse is just plain bullshit. The depiction of "Zwarte Piet" is a racist stereotype, this does not mean however that the celebration is racist or that they are celebrating a racist event. Neither does it mean that the people who celebrate it, do so with racist intentions. As mentioned in the video, many people arent even aware of this racist dimension and arent aware that some people are offended or hurt by this.
That ignorance is part of the problem, and it is exactly this ignorance that Quinsy is adressing. He says at the start that he would prefer to have "Zwarte Piet" (depicted the way he is now) out of the celebration (he doesnt want to abolish the entire festivity) but if that is not a possibility he wants people to be made aware atleast about the way other people experience this festivity, including the colonial roots and the racial stereotype. This seems like a fair request to me.
But I dont agree with the way he puts this request out there. The chair reminds him that the people who celebrate Sinterklaas dont do so with racist intentions. Quincy then states that hes not concerned about the intentions, just about the impact of their actions upon the people that are offended by it. This is a big mistake imo, because that means also, using the same criteria, that he is calling the people who are celebrating Sinterklaas racist people. This may not be his intention, but that is the impact of his actions on the people he is offending. Hence that the most common reaction to saying that "Zwarte Piet" is racist is the reaction u see by the big man in the video.
The result is that we have 2 sides who feel offended, and this will not ever go anywhere...
Other than Quinsy I dont really care about the impact of the actions, I care more about the intentions, and since the intentions (overall) arent racist Im not offended by it. That being said, I do agree with his point that people should be made aware of how this celebration affects other people who are sometimes their neighbours and their friends, but atleast their fellow countrymen. I dont think anything should be forced upon anyone. Just make the case and show why its kinda weird that when a white guy goes through a chimney he comes out black, with thick red lips, big earrings and black curly hair, and then let it to the people who celebrate it whether they want this aspect to remain a part of their tradition, or not.
Why does blacking up your face make you a racist?
If it is, those coal miners have a lot to answer for.
Does working in coal mines give you big red lips and an afro?Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneApache
Only if you get a thick lip from not doing as your told, oh and washing your hair in wash-and-go.
The thing is this is silly. I could tell you real stories of racism that my step-mum related to me. Horrific.
That's always the fun. Do people purposely misconstrue something obviously racist as not or are their heads so far up their own butts they honestly can't see it?
I like this "Oh no no no, it has nothing to do with blacks.... it's just soot. But as further proof, our former colonies of black people still celebrate the holiday that has nothing to do with black people and they love it so it's fine."
I could say something similar about your step-mums stories probably. that her grief is silly because someone has worse issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneApache
there is always someone with a more horrible story, this is not an argument not to listen to these people... imagine shrinks turning people down, saying you got daddy issues? well, i know people whos entire family got murdered, so stop whining and go WORK...
it would be nice if we could objectively make a list of which world problems to solve first, and we can both agree that this one would probably not even come in the top1000, but hey, if only the world worked that way.
but i guess ridicule is easier.
Please don't try to make sense of the "mythology" or indeed the whole thing. That would be like attempting to rationalise Thanksgiving or Christmas as anything else but a ritualistic offer on the altar of commerce in the form of wholesale turkey slaughter, terrible jokes, family arguments and mandatory conspicuous spending. Besides, what's up with the whole faux Dutch/German spelling thing?Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
I'm not sure that the whole thing is now suitably sanitised for all concerned, but if you want to try bringing in the "traditional version" as damning evidence of its inherently racist nature, well, please explain at least the following two phenomena as well: "hulp-Sinterklaas" and the various job titles of the Zwarte Pieten (plural). Why? Because they're at odds with tradition and any attempt at reconciling that would make for some highly entertaining reading, that's why.
Not really, local versions simply died out. The Christmas thing is just an American export, carefully scrubbed clean of anything that might give cause for offense. Tradition has even less to do with that one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiaexz
Coincidentally, Sinterklaas has been in steady decline since the introduction of American Christmas.
Bingo, there's people who want it because tradition (nevermind that in the 18th and 19th century local by-laws banned it for being too Catholic) and there's people who want to project the arguably racist overtones in it to the point you have to wonder whether or not they have even seen a modern Sinterklaas celebration in their life. And of course, as Fragony notes correctly, it is also celebrated in places which ostensibly have a lot more reason to be sensitive about racial inequality or sensibilities.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Stranger
I expect the letter to be much ado about nothing. Especially since as far as government is concerned the whole thing is a privately organised and run event.
There's a lot of people getting all righteous and offended on other peoples' behalf on this thread.
So in that spirit.
I get offended by the BBC childrens' tv program Blue Peter. Because it's racist against orange people. You know like Terry Venebles, Dale Winton and Peter Hain.
See how silly your posturing is yet?
Sussed.Quote:
but i guess ridicule is easier.
Hey, don't think that I meant any more than what I said. I am not getting offended for anybody, neither do I think that people are being purposefully racist by keeping this tradition.Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneApache
My point is that that this tradition is clearly rooted in racism, even if it no longer holds such meaning today. Surely you would not argue that the combination of blackface, big red lips and fuzzy hair is coincidental?
I think we can acknowledge the rather morally dodgy roots of one aspect of this particular tradition, while still keeping it alive and in good spirit today. While households should obviously celebrate in whatever way they wish, I think public celebrations should take into consideration the feelings of Dutch society as a whole. If it is going to seriously offend minorities, then you have to bear that in mind. From what CA said, the purpose of this UN investigation is to find out whether blacks are offended by it. If they are not offended, then yes I absolutely agree you should keep it alive and if indeed a few white do-gooders want to be offended on black peoples' behalf, then we can ignore them.
I think IA is still angry from the other thread and just wants to take away my colonial goodies which I expect to arrive any minute.
The difference is that the Dutch, while this is horribly racist, are really nice people as a whole. And I always saw Dutchistan as a country where black citizens are just a normal thing and noone really makes a difference. I mean apart from the Royal Dutch Marine Corps there is nothing harmful or dangerous in the entire country. It's completely unfeasible to think that Dutchies want to harm someone, they're the kitten of countries. I still want my Kokosbrood though.
The produced Fragony didn't they? That's a crime against humanity in and of itself.
the only one getting offended on other peoples behalf is you. no one in this thread said that painting your face black makes you racist in every circumstance. and instead of seeing the merit of the point that in some case it can mean it is racist (which doesnt even mean that much in itself, whats more stupid are the arguments put forth to deny this. you can tell a racist joke without being a racist yourself, you can even tell a racist joke without having the intention to be racist. this doesnt make the joke less racist though.) you go ahead and a) trivialise the point by saying that there is worse stuff in the world. b) ridicule it by making some stupid comparison.Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneApache
your behaviour in this thread, and that of frag's as well, is examplatory of how people in the netherlands respond to this, and frankly thats what pisses these "activists" off. because no normal and rational debate can be had. You dont have to agree with them, you don't have to give in to their demands just because they are offended. But atleast... you can take them serious. And then after hearing them out you can rebuke their points with fair arguments (and not these strawmen you put forth) or you can just say that you do not care and dont mind that this is part of your cultural heritage. so be it.
but ye, as i said in my first post, this wont ever go anywhere since the basis for a rational discussion isnt there (and both "sides" are to blame for this), and i guess its the same online as offline.
Ok. I'm open to discussion.
So can someone please explain to me me in plain English why 'blacking up' is racist?
this is racial stereotyping (broad nose, big lips, curly black hair, big bling jewelry):Attachment 11096. If you want to defend it by saying its simply a chimney sweeper, then please explain to me how someone who looks like this Attachment 11097 come out of a chimney looking like the first picture.
I guess this is a nice depiction of a family of chimney sweepers: Attachment 11099
For comparison, this is also racial stereotyping: http://resist.com/CARTOON%20GALLERY/...ws_image24.jpg
Just putting some black paint on your face doesnt make you a racist, it wont make you look like the first pic however, it will make you look like this: Attachment 11098
That being said, the celebration doesnt have racist roots, most of the people celebrating dont have racist intentions, the problem is that they feel they are being made out to be racist (and in some cases they are, imo wrongly) because they are being reminded of the fact that the way "Zwarte Piet" is being depicted now is racist and is offensive to some people. Some people respond to this by looking for different ways to depict Zwarte Piet, some others respond to this by getting very defensive and denying that it is racist.
Deeper at root imo is the problem that some people simply "dont want to give in" to "newcomers" telling them what to do. And they have the right to take that attitude.
(imo you can diagnose something as racist without immediately bringing the ethical or moral dimension into it. As I said, you can make a racist joke without being a racist, you can write a book about racism without writing a racist book. You can make a racist charicature like the ones about islam that stirred so much commotion a while back without being a racist. if you believe that the points in favor weigh heavier than the points against it, then by all means proceed.)
Because it mocks the way that black people look, and comes from a culture of stereotyping black people in negative ways to justify things like slavery and segregation.Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneApache
IF it has become significantly divorced from these roots that it has lost these meanings, and/or people are no longer offended by it, then great, let it continue. But if the Dutch black community does take issue with it, then I think all Dutch people should at least take that into consideration.
They don't, they celebrate it themselve. There are only a few whiners that aren't worth discussing, yet here we are. It's a beloved tradition that is perfectly harmless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr
Apparently there is a dutch news website that covers news from Dutchistan in English. May be useful for @Fragony in the future.
http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archive...rstands_zw.php
http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archive..._and_so_ca.php
http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archive...st_stereot.php
The articles mention for example that there are Surinamese and Antilles protesters, which sounds like not all the colonials like it.
And both the politicians and the organizers of the festivities seem willing to let go of the racial stereotypes involved (which seem like a more recent thing given the origin of zwarte piet). As I said, there is really not a dutch person who would want to harm anyone, even Fragony is just a fluffy bunny with a loud mouth. ~:pat:
Thankyou for your replys guys.
Now how many of you are black?
Serious question.
I am. Though I don't see what your question has to do with anything I said really. Would the content of my post have less merit if i wasnt black? Because you havent responded to a word i said actually.
Some parts/dots of me are black, I have been told they're my unhealthy parts though.
The Stranger is right though in that your last post seems like you just ignore all the arguments you asked for IA.
Do you personally feel offended by this tradition?
A beer or two might be responsible. ;)
you either havent read a word i said. or your earlier comment that you were up for a discussion was a lie. in any case, im out of here, because this isnt going anywhere but your problems arent as good as mine...
I don't like these foreigners who try change one of our defining traditions. If this is such a big issue(which it isn't), then ask yourself, why was this never an issue before 2011?
In my opinion, the renaming of the 'Negerzoenen' was already a step too far. Perhaps I should feel offended by 'Blanke vla'. Everyone knows the name is a black invention to insult dutch nationals.
What's funny is I think there are a lot of the people like me in this thread. I have nothing to do with this holiday, and I'm not black (but I "have black friends" Whoo Baltimore!).
So some in this thread are saying "Well you're not black, and the we can't find many, if any blacks that are offended. So what's the deal?"
Well, this thread pretty much came to us and asked what we thought..... right? I would think someone who hasn't taken part in the holiday and isn't the race being discussed would be able to give a more objective view. Do I care one way or the other? No. It will never affect me. But I can still look at and think it's pretty borderline racist.
I really don't care what people do with the holiday. I'm not black and whatever crazy country that is over there doing it.....Amestris? That may be from FullMetal Alchemist I don't remember.
I'm not sure that white people dressing up as black people implies racism, but I don't really know enough about this to make a judgement.
Anyway, my all time favorite black face performance:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wfg1c8dyZYM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jnw6ZpHGjNQ
I'm offended by that tradition.
It doesn't depict the All Blacks accurately.
Kinda funny, when a reporter asked a (black) comedian if zwarte piet is a negroe he replied 'of course not zwarte piet brings presents, if a real negroe slided down your chimney your tv would be gone'. (Losely translated)
Humour will get you anywhere.
It's not often that I agree with Fragony, this is one of those times.
its obviously racist. but that doesnt mean its "bad" but this distinction seems to be lost on many people (on both sides of the argument). the problem is more that the people who are complaining feel like they arent being listened to, they feel like they do not have the right to complain about this (one of the activists got arrested for wearing a tshirt that said Zwarte piet is Racisme, while someone was making a picture), and they feel as if their side of the story is less valuable than the tradition.Quote:
Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger
as i said, you dont have to agree, you dont have to give in, but imo its only decent to listen to their arguments. and if you dont even want to do that, for whatever reason, then do not take away their democratic right to talk to the wall... (not saying this is actually the case because i dont think it is.)
I thought Sinterklaas was a Turk. So, Sinterklaas and Zwarte Piet are actually a Turkish boss with a white employee who is forced to climb up and down chimneys. I'd say Sinterklaas and Zwarte Piet are a good example of what succesful integration of muslim immigrants could accomplish: the muslim becomes boss of a succesful and lucrative business and employs whites to do the dirty chimney climbing work.
Sinterklaas is the example of the perfectly integrated and succesful muslim (he became a Catholic Bishop and runs his own business and he's famous!).
:tongue:
kinda fail andres :P even for a joke
while from modern day turkey, turkey didnt exist and the turks hadnt migrated there, islam hadnt stretched there either. he was a greek most like.
Let me remind you that Turkey wasn't conquered by the Turks at the time. At least do it good ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Andres
So, he was Greek. Even better. A perfect example that not all Greeks are lazy and can become succesful entrepeneurs.
As such, he is a symbol in the fight against generalisation and stereotyping of our Greek friends.
Didn't the whole "negerzoenen" thing turn out to be one big publicity stunt, organised by the company?Quote:
Originally Posted by rickinator9
Also; it's been an issue for quite some time now. It's been repeatedly brought up during the last few years in the months september till november; perhaps even during the last few decades.
And to be fair; I'd hesitate to call the critics "foreigners" except when we're talking about the UN investigation. In the Neth's there might be a few bleeding-heart white people who are fighting the good fight, but I assume that most of the people who actually feel offended themselves are Dutch nationals of Surinam or Antillian descent.
To bring you foreigners up to speed, our celebration of Sinterklaas amounts to the following.
A boat arrives at a dock, where a lot of spectators are present - mostly children and their parents. An old guy disembarks. He's wearing a fake beard, red robes and one of those Pope hats. He's accompanied by several "black" guys who pass out candy to children as they pass through the crowd. For some miraculous reason, this event happens at multiple locations throughout the country at exactly the same time.
Later, on the evening of 5 December, children who are young enough to believe in this fantasy leave behind one of their shoes in the living room (near the fireplace, if there is one) and will find a present in (or near) the shoe the next morning, accompanied by a poem signed by "Saint Nick and Black Peter". The parents act as if they're surprised.
That's pretty much it.
As for the mostly white volunteers who usually play the role of Black Peter(s), the dress consists only of black facepaint, a wig of black hair and poofy clothes that were supposedly popular during the Renaissance era. Their role is to interact with the kids joyfully and hand out candy. Acting foolishly is not part of the role - contrary to what the letter to the UN is suggesting, they're not portrayed as submissive retards.
OTOH, Saint Nick is a stern fellow who keeps track of the behaviour of children (writing them down in his "great book") and gives prestents on the night of 5-6 december, but only to the nice kids.
On that point, our government said: (paraphrased)Quote:
Originally Posted by Some bloke that CountArach quoted
"Contrary to what's being suggested here, we have not filed any request whatsoever to have Sinterklaas added to UNESCO's list of cultural heritage and have no plans to do so."
:laugh:
After survey, only in (dr)Amsterdam they have a problem, the epicentre of patronising, how surprising. I would like to know the black/white ratio but it isn't in the survey, but because it's Amsterdam I am pretty sure that most are gutmensch. In the other towns like Rotterdam or Den Helder or The Hague which have large black populations they just laugh it off.
is ther something 'lesser' about having big red lips and an afro?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr
Is there something wrong with liking watermelon and fried chicken?
There is if it is being coupled with a position of servilitude.Quote:
Originally Posted by Furunculus
Long time ago, I was with a friend and we heard these stereotypes from Americans and we didn't know the answer, specifically, Watermelon. Watermelon just seemed so alien of a stereotype, so we put our googlefu to good use. We came across a bunch of answers such as 'Easier to Steal' and other nonsense, then there was an article saying that Watermelon was a very cheap fruit (chicken is cheap too) back in the ol' times which was popular with the poorer segments of society who could not afford the more expensive food but both provided good nourishment. Another one talked about it being slavery propaganda summed up as "Simple minded folk who are happy with Watermelon and a little rest".Quote:
Originally Posted by AntiDamascus
Very old stereotype that some how lasted over hundred years, even though that 'black' people only account for 11% of Watermelon consumption in the United States.
Isn't it just that watermelon and fried chicken were more common in the South than the North and during the black migrations to the Northern cities of the first half of the 20th c. the Northerners came to associate these things with blacks instead of Southerners generally?
stereotypes are often wrong. such as that all black people like bananas (because theyre basically monkeys, if another thread may be believed) And you dont want to know how often i hear that one or a variation of it ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiaexz
anyway the issue at stake here is imo, when does one have "the right" to be offended, or when is it valid. This whole discussion is often rebuked with "well, you can take offense to everything" and while i dont think when it puts like that its an argument, but there is still merit to the statement.
How do we determine when something is offensive, what happens when someone is offended but no offense was intented? etc
Possible UN resolution? The same UN that wants our special forces on the frontline in Mali? Which isn't really a frontline of course, which means a whole lot of innocent civilians will get killed. Unlike zwarte piet they don't hand out candy, very good at killing though. As if this couldn't get any more absurd.
The more crescendo the hysteria goes, the less likely this will end well.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Stranger
I think the main issue is that most people have their viewpoint, stand their ground and don't even listen to each other.
One the one side, you have people who take offense. On the other side, you have people who deem it ridiculous and who say that they are overreacting.
But it's not very difficult to take the offense away.
For children, it won't matter if "Zwarte Piet" is an asian or white guy or woman. They won't care if Sinterklaas is suddenly a black guy. Sinterklaas usually has more than one servant. It's perfectly possible to keep the fairy tale intact and have 4 Pieten of different skin coulour and/or why not a black or an asian Sinterklaas.
Even if you find it a bit silly that people are offended, one must admit that it is very easy to keep the tradition, but in a less offensive package.
A small compromise and everybody is happy again.
Ridiculous or overreaction or not, it's not that hard to find a decent solution that satisfies everybody.
People often are way too busy with their own rightheousness instead of just proposing a satisfying compromise.
Instead of looking for arguments to prove one is right, one should better use his creative juices to find a solution for the issue. And in this case, a solution is very easily found.
:shrug:
yea thats definitely part of the problem. as i said in my first post, you can hardly call this a debate or a discussion. its just 2 sides venting their frustration at each other, none of them really listening or talking to each other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andres
Which raises the question: do we have a problem that people want to fix or is all this hysteria just people looking for an excuse to vent and to channel frustrations? Do they want to solve the problem or do they prefer to just yell at each other as loud as they can?Quote:
Originally Posted by The Stranger
I think the best way to deal with this is to have somebody neutral ask both parties to sit around the table, have the neutral person offer a simple solution and when both sides keep yelling hysterically, ask the above questions. Then leave the studio and immediately start a program in which you make good fun of the hysterical people with a few hilarious sketches. End with the comment "ok, now that they channeled their frustrations with each other and we had a few good laughs at their hysterical expense, we can now carry on with the order of the day". Broadcast it in prime time. .
Ever considered that the offence taken is offensive. Nothing needs to be changed. Nobody but a few boohoohoo-piets and 100% white self rigtious rebels without a cause complain. For the rest of us it's just a beloved tradition that has absolutily nothing to do with racism (or slavery fu UN you are perfectly fine with us going to kill hundreds of negroes in Mali, wtf do you think how it will be if you send our special forces, use the Dutch as mercenaries but rain hell on a kids party screw you). Some people just need racism to exist because they don't have anything else to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Stranger
Perhaps somebody from the Dutch Jewish or Muslim communities who have not attachment to this pagan/Christian ritual?Quote:
Originally Posted by Andres
not only did i consider it, i mentioned it in one of my previous posts. please do keep up fragony.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
your post however perfectly examplifies what andres was talking about. and its imo a very arrogant attitude. Just because they are perhaps a minority doesnt mean their feelings shouldnt be respected or their arguments heard. Just because the "Almighty Frag" thinks it is bullshit, doesnt neccesarily make it so. The fact that some black/brown/whatever colour of people think its is not a problem (of which I myself am one of them) is no argument in favor of it not being a problem, in the same fashion that the fact that there are white/yellow/whatever color of people who think that it is a racist and a problem is no argument in favor of it actually being a problem...
The 'allmighty Frag' is a very polite guy, and he says ffsstfu. Feel free to take offence. At anything. But just don't spoil our party.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Stranger
That is a whole different attitude. Feel free to ignore them, but if you do enter the discussion then do so fairly. As i said, feel free to celebrate it in whatever way you like. If you dont care about their feelings, or if you think that for whatever reason the "good" effects outweigh the "bad", than by all means continue. It is your tradition, and it is you who decides how it will be shaped and what you want to be part of your heritage. No one should force such a decision upon you, that much we agree to.
I've seen/read/heard a few people making a good case for changing the character. Generally their point is similar to Andres' post.
An interesting factoid is that Sinterklaas is also celebrated among the black population of the Netherlands Antilles. But apparently they've begun to question the character of Zwarte Piet, too, with the exception that the black people who celebrate it aren't accused of being flaming racists.
Meanwhile, the chairwoman of the UN group that is investigating the case has decided to vent her personal opinion prematurely:
- She can't understand why the Dutch don't see this for what it is: a return to slavery (hint: the character has never been depicted as a slave, not even the 19th century)
- Black people don't disguise themselves as whiteys and say "this is how all white people look like!" (a red herring)
- The Dutch shouldn't make changes to the tradition, they must abolish it entirely.
I don't know, maybe this chairwoman should adress the people of the Netherlands Antilles as well? I would certainly expect her to use the same tone. Maybe call them a bunch of Uncle Toms or even race traitors. Yep, that will go down well.
This is a surprisingly good article on the subject (sort of):
Quote:
1. You Can't Talk Someone Out of Being Offended
[...]
2. You Can't Force Someone to Be Offended (And You Shouldn't Try)
[...]
3. It's Pretty Rude to Get Offended for Someone Else
[...]
4. Being Offended Doesn't Always Matter
[...]
5. [Discussion Is] Good for Us
Good, as some people need to be offended just as badly as a drugwhore needs heroin. Sinterklaas isn't going to change, the complainers can shove it up their behinds in all directions. We can put up with a lot, but there is a point where it is hands off. As if the Netherlands is a racist society, sure it exists some people are racist, but ffs a possible UN resolution. They are perfectly fine with our special forces who are going to kill a whole lot of people in Mali though, oh no problem thereQuote:
Originally Posted by The Stranger
Admittedly, more mundane examples have been forced to change. There was an old nursery rhyme called 'Baa baa Black Sheep' and it was a little story about a sheep and wool. However now it is 'baa baa green sheep'.
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Though, the beloved British Golliwog is on par with Zwarte Piet. Apparently popular in the colonies too.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
It was a toy all the kids used to tug up at night with. All the rage as parents used to get the Golliwog collectables. Even served us his delicious marmalade, everyone was happy and free. There were stories, songs, poems... everyone loved and cherished their golliwogg. They were as intrinsically British as the teddybear.
This is the fate of the Golliwog.
:stare:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiaexz
You mean hug. Right?
New survey, 85% of the black Dutchies have absolutily no problem with zwarte piet, they see no racism in it. That's a whopper of a majority. Not sure if the remaining 15% find it questionable or offensive it doesn't say that. Can we go back to nothingtoseeheremovealong-mode please?
UN, get of our back we are perfectly harmless.
Turns out to be a whole lot of nothing. The women who threatened with a UN resolution has no serious function in the UN and has as much influence there as I have. She can use the paper. One down. Now let's bomb amsterdam, the capital of patronising selfcongratulating morally superior gutmenschen and everything is fine again and me and my black-friends are going to have a fun celebration.
Tug/Tuck-up, which is where you hug/snuggle-up to something, yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by johnhughthom
https://i.imgur.com/l461g4n.pngQuote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Heh. Got to thank the UN though, their outrage 'return to slavery' only got them a big middle finger from the black community, general consensus being 'it's our party as well'. So thx UN for threatining with a resolution, and gutmensch for being clueless of how people should think, you made it an even better place to live, and you look like even bigger idiots.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiaexz
X frags