Imperial Diet IV

[FactionHeir]

I congratulate Matthias on his victory for the honorable position of chancellor and wish to thank all members of the diet who have supported versions of edicts and charter amendments considering the investigation and possible ...solution to Imperial matters.

I have also cast my votes, and thus, the dice.

[Ituralde]

I would also like to congratulate Matthias Steffen, he will make a fine Chancellor and surely follow the fine tradition of Bavarian Chancellors before him.

It saddens me though to see, that the late Emperor Jobsts dealings with his succession have led this body to pass a law which will put every future Emperor under suspicion. I had hope we could deal with my own ascension seperately, but it seems as though the Dukes have not been idle to grab a little bit more power for themselves. And this, after not a single piece of evidence has been presented against my claims, while I have defended myself numerous times.

Why the matter of the succession of the King of Outremere, even appears in this piece of legislation is beyond me though. There is not even the slimmest possibility of the matter being unclear. But it seems that fear and insecurity have spread within this body, and everybody tries to assure himself by unwieldy legislation whose long time consequences can not be fully grasped yet.

Either way, with the passing of CA 11.1 it is now the time to cast the vote, to see whether 1/4 of the assembled Electors here still hold doubts regarding my ascension. I repeat again, that it was Emperor Jobsts express wish that I should follow him on the throne and so far no one has bothered to give proof that Emperor Jobst, Dieter, and me were lying.

I will wait with my judgement on the rest of the legislation until all votes have been counted and my status has been resolved.

[econ21]

Diet Speaker: Very well, my Kaiser, I will organise a poll to see if a quarter of this Diet wish to see our Kaiser chosen by the Dukes and the King of Outremer.

[econ21]

Elberhard:

Well, the election results are in.

The people have spoken ...

...the @#$%^&!!!s!

I mean, congratulations and all to Chancellor Matthias, but what were you lot smoking when you voted for CA 11.1?

I don't @#$%^&!!!ing believe it, we require a 2/3 majority to impeach the Chancellor but a mere 1/4 to get the Kaiser chosen by five men!

With CA 11.1 and 11.4, this Diet has seen a marked shift in the balance of power towards the Dukes - the majority of whom voted for Hummel in the last Diet!

We all remember how decisively they dealt with that crisis - they acted with all the vigour of a drunken sloth falling off a tree.

I hope the lackeys who subserviently followed their bidding in the last set of votes are suitably rewarded.

[AussieGiant]

Arnold

Jesus wept Elberhard it's only in the event we have a dispute!!

If this whole bloody thing had been done like it had been for the last few hundred years then there would have been no need.

Now we have some dying wish whispered between two men while one of them was having his arse fried to his plate mail. Good knows what he was thinking under those conditions.

Hell if my @#$!s were being panned fried I would have probably being asking Siegfried for some balm, not telling him I want him to be the next Kaiser.

Who knows, and that the #$%@!ing point. It's normally stated HERE in this building for all to hear and with no degree of doubt.

Plus this is all conveniently confirmed by a person that is not even a Noble of this Reich. A layman you could say.

PLUS, I noticed you were the only man here not to vote for my next wife...I mean first wife...I mean my future and ONLY wife...

Arnold leans down to whisper into the ex Count of Venice's ear for some moment, standing up rather abruptly the tail end of the discussion can be heard.


...exactly, so they didn't count...ok great.

Exactly Elberhard, my future wife. Do you have something against me being able to get my rocks off in wed lock!!??

Good, god, man, the last time you were here I was hanging off the chandeliers drunk as a pirate, lobbing bread rolls between the girl's legs you were between!!

Poor form old chap...

...poor form I must say!!

Just get it over with before your hand falls off like mine's about too so we can go out and get all messy.

Where's that lunatic Lothar!!

Turning and bellowing to the servants

Page boy!!! Find Lord Lothar, drag him out from which ever boudoir he's in and get him here pronto!! Yes I said pronto, I do speak Italian, where in Rome for christ sake!!!

[TevashSzat]

I do congrajulate Matthias for his win for the chancellorship. Pleased too am I about the passing of CA 11.1, but there is one error in it I believe. In the last sentence, it shoud be "power" not "period".

I must also inform everyone that I have urgent matters to attend to in Swabia, but will return in a week or so.

Friederich rushes out of the Diet

[TinCow]

*Lothar storms in, looking very upset.*

This Diet is absolutely insane! You voted in both Charter Amendments 11.3 and 11.4?! Do you have any idea what you have done? You have now given Outremer FAR more voting power than any Ducal House! The entire point of including the voting clause in 11.4 was so to address the inequality without having to implement the ridiculously biased 11.3! Congratulations, gentlemen, you have just given Outremer as much legislative power as two Ducal Houses.

*Lothar takes his seat, muttering to himself and scowling at the room.*

Goddamned bloody ignorant gits...

[AussieGiant]

Looking rather shocked Arnold grabs a large pewter of Ale and downs it in one gulp!!

See!!

I $#%^$#ing said there was too much legislation!!

No one even know's their head from the #$^#hole anymore, and I'm as guilty as any of you!!

For christ sake, call the lawyers and have someone sort this debacle out...I'm going to have a drink...

...where a laughing stock gentlemen. We've voted for the same thing without ever realising.

He are my concerns at a glance:

-----------

Now don't CA 11.3 and the part of CA 11.4 that deals with edicts and CA's in an overlap manner for Outremer

CA's 11.1 and CA 11.7. Plus now that I look closer then Edict 11.9 also deals with succession.

This deals with the poll the speaker has past under our noses.

There seems to be an overlap of how this is to be done.

And finally doesn't CA 11.6 and part of CA 11.4 (CA 9.1 point 4) also need to be worked out as they both speak about Outremer succession

-----------

We must reduce the total amount of possible legislation for future diet sessions or we risk having this realm become entirely ungovernable.

[Stig]

Seriously, stop with your lawyers. You southerners really call on them too often, I've never needed one, and I'm happy about that. Filty bastards they are.

The first problem you produced when making Edicts and CA's was the overlapping of CA 11.3 and CA 11.4.
This is no problem, they both mention 3 extra Edicts for the King of the Outremer, I see no problem in that.

Secondly CA 11.1 and CA 11.7. 11.1 deals with succession, 11.7 doesn't. That's those two sorted out.


Most importantly we have CA 11.1 and Edict 11.9.
11.9 says that the Dukes need to agree on the fact wether Siegfried is Kaiser or not. If they don't (ie. 3 Dukes don't agree with Siegfrieds arguments) there will be a public vote, if not everyone will vote.
CA 11.1 says that there should be a large dispute, to see if there's a large dispute we need to vote, as is done in the running poll.

These overlap, in this was the mistake of the people who made them, we should go by one. And we are going by CA 11.1 as it seems.

[AussieGiant]

Ok then. I'm voting.

[Privateerkev]

Jan walks in baring the markings on his armor of being a Crusader

Good morning gentlemen! I have only a short amount of time before I join Count Zirn in retaking Jerusalem from those dirty Saracens.

First off, I wish to publicly congratulate Chancellor Matthias and pray that his reign is a prosperous one.

Second, I am happy to point out that I am one of the few people who did not vote for both CA 11.3 and CA 11.4. While there are those that disagreed with that position, I have at least remained ideologically consistent.

Third, Does CA 11.3 and CA 11.4 truly overlap? One gives the King some edicts. One gives the King some more edicts. No contradiction here. All because people do not like how the two CA's combine, doesn't mean that the CA's contradict. And before people claim that I am only saying this because it benefits Outremer, I am not the one that voted for both CA's.

[Stig]

No, both give the King 3 edicts, so they overlap, and that's nice.
And believe me, the King is appointed by the Kaiser, and people in the Outremer can easely be called back by the Dukes if they get too much influence.

[Privateerkev]

Ansehelm, I must respectfully disagree.

One gives 3 personal edicts. One gives 3 house edicts. These do not overlap. And the Crusader Counts have actually lost influence, not gained any. They have just gained edicts.

[Ituralde]

I am sure all theses irregualirities will be settled by the Emperor. However this may take some time, because first there are several things that need to be worked out concerning my status. The first voting is currently in progress, but I fear the Diet has given the Dukes enough power to call for a second run. As I have predicted the Reich is without Kaiser, and may continue to do so for quite some time. Alas, it was the wish of this Diet, so we must follow it through.

[Stig]

The King of Outremer is allowed to propose three Edicts

The King of Outremer may propose up to 3 personal Edicts during each Diet session

Now is that the same or not Jan?
Would it be the same as Ducal it would have said:

The Kingdom of Outremer is allowed to propose three Edicts

Next to that concerning the Kaiser, this Diet has made many mistakes. First of all the will of Kaiser Jobst, any man loyal to the Reich would follow that. They who vote against Kaiser Siegfried are not loyal to the Reich.
People who are not loyal to their country should be hung, banned atleast.

[Privateerkev]

My dear Ansehelm,

While I have clearly stated my loyalty to Kaiser Siegfried from the very beginning, I would balk at calling those who think differently, traitors. While Duke Arnold and I have had our differences, the man is a patriot. The Diet passed CA's and edicts regarding succession, some proposed by the Kaiser himself. I suggest we let them play out.

As for CA's 11.3 and 11.4, you are not reading out the whole legislation. If you read the whole of both bills, it becomes clear that CA 11.3 provides for 3 house edicts and CA 11.4 provides for 3 personal edicts.

[Cecil XIX]

Count von Hamburg, the word 'house' does not appear anywhere in CA 11.3. Perhaps they were intended to be like House Edicts, but since the bill does not explicitly say so, that is not what they are.

[Privateerkev]

Count Sigismund,

I have had my lawyer look at these CA's and I agree with his interpretation. Since 11.3 says that the three edicts need pre-approval by Crusaders, they are the equivalent of Ducal House edicts. 11.4 gives the King three personal edicts because he has no access to Bavarian house edicts. Now, I am not saying I like this situation. I am not the one that voted for both CA's. But, they are both law of the land now and must be followed. Come the next Diet session, people can propose a CA that nulls one of the others.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Conrad Salier:

If Chancellor Steffin does his work well, I doubt that seven edicts will be needed to steer Outremer in the right direction.

[Privateerkev]

Actually my King,

We have access to a potential of 24 edicts. 6 personal edicts plus 12 house edicts plus 3 Outremer edicts plus 3 King edicts. Now, the actual number will end up being far less but that is the potential.

[Stig]

The Outremer is no House, it can have no such thing as House edicts, and that's the end of it.

And I suggest you stop calling me "your dear Ansehelm" Jan, or I might even kill some Polish prisoners, there are still some left.

[Privateerkev]

Ansehelm,

The Outremer is not a house but it has been granted house powers by legislation. CA 11.3 gives Outremer edicts that function exactly like Ducal House edicts. So, they are in fact, house edicts even if they are not named that. It doesn't matter what we name them. If you did not want Outremer to have the functional equivalent of house edicts, then you should not have voted for CA 11.3.

[flyd]

The Outremer has become more like a house over time. Certainly, a special temporary status was necessary as the Kingdom was initially built up, but currently it acts just like a House, and is only not so in name. Perhaps these sorts of disputes would be best resolved if the Charter was ammended at the next session to make the House status for the Outremer official, the Counts removed from their Duchies, and the King given equal rank to the Dukes.

[Privateerkev]

My father has a good point.

The King already dispenses counties like a Duke. He already commands the army like a Duke does. Now he gets edicts that function equivalent to Ducal House edicts. And, with the passage of CA 11.4, it has become easier for an elector to pull away from his house and become more committed to Outremer. We already release the King from being bound to his former house. Instead of making Crusaders straddle between house loyalties and Outremer loyalties, they can be allowed to pick which policy they wish to be loyal to. It does us no good to pretend Outremer is not a house when we keep enacting legislation that makes it more and more like one.

[econ21]

Diet Speaker: The scribes have now integrated the Charter Amendments into our Charter. [OOC: influence in the playlist has also been updated].

There has been some debate both inside this Diet and outside about possible contradictions in the Charter Amendments and Edicts passed. One concerns the succession; the other, the voting powers of the King of Outremer.

On the succession, Electors are doubtless aware of the poll currently underway as required by Charter Amendment 11.1. If one quarter of the total vote of the Diet agrees that a Council should be formed to decide the succession, then it will be formed and will select the next Chancellor.

Once that process as laid out under CA 11.1 has been resolved - with or without the establishment of a Council - we must follow Edict 11.9. This requires that all the Dukes unaminously agree that the outcome - whatever it is - is satisfactory. If they do not, then there will be a public vote to determine succession.

On the voting powers of the King of Outremer, Charter Amendments 11.3 and 11.4 have introduced an ambiguity in the Charter capable of various interpretations. At the next Diet, it will fall to the Kaiser to adjudicate whether the King of Outremer has three votes or six.

[AussieGiant]

Looking at the Diet Speaker with clear admiration and pointing to him while speaking

Love your work Mr Speaker...Love your work!!!

You should come and work for me. You could replace the 12 or 13 lawyers I have in one swoop!!

[AussieGiant]

Arnold

Not wanting to "jump the gun" as it were...and by the way has anyone seen these new "pistols", amazing things...

...anyway back to business.

The vote seems clear, we have secured 1/4 of the vote to call for a Ducal review.

Edict 11.9 now say that if the result of the Diet is not satisfactory ascension must be agreed on by all Duke then we open it up to another Reich wide vote...

...therefore Dear Dukes we need to have small talk together.

CA 11.7 says if there is a "dispute", which I believe the current succession issues qualifies for, then the dukes or representative must conduct a simple vote with the Kaiser breaking any ties.

Either way the Dukes need to get together as soon as possible to make their voices known.

For the good of the Reich I recommend we do that is fast as possible.

And Ansehelm, can you cease calling for those voting against the Kaiser to be hung!! You have three Dukes and a Prinz using that line of reasoning. And we are not voting against the Kaiser in my view.

PLUS you maniac CA 11.7 implicate you in this process as you are technically a representative!!

I know you are getting ready for your Crusade, but I'd request you turn your aggression towards the Russians.

[Stig]

I'm sorry for that Arnold, but aggression is building up ... hence why I didn't kill all the Poles at once, that means the fun will be gone at once.
And yes I know that officially I'm still Steward of Franconia and thus am Franconias representative.

Next to that we need a unanimous outcome, and I doubt we'll get that.


(OOC: as said in the OOC thread it might be better to make a thread, otherwise we'll have a full PM box in no time.)

[FactionHeir]

As Duke Scherer is currently absent, it falls to me to be presiding for Swabia in the council.
I will also bring forth evidence at said meeting.

[AussieGiant]

As Duke Scherer is currently absent, it falls to me to be presiding for Swabia in the council.
I will also bring forth evidence at said meeting.

Raising an eyebrow

When did that happen Hans? When where you named Steward?

And how do you think you can preside in a Council which is about you?