Heavy Fighting in South Ossetia

[Banquo's Ghost]

Originally Posted by HoreTore: "Northern Ireland?"


he isn't really right at all.

it was never a shooting war between state actors.

we broke their will to continue fighting by utterly infiltrating them via every human and technical means available, to the point where if they planned an assassination there were SAS waiting to slot them, if they went to pick up an arms cache it was possibly booby-trapped, if they went looking for moles we served them up one of their own to execute whilst leaving our spies ever further up in the ranks of the IRA.

they came to the peace table on their knees!

I don't wish to derail the thread, but that's bollox. (If you want to explore it further, please start a new thread and I will discuss with you, subject to the constraints of the Official Secrets Act).

[Banquo's Ghost]

And what he had got the Ossetians into, it appears. The stories of the Ossetian refugees who fled into Russia are pretty harrowing. It is hard to say how much of all that is true, but the fact that they fled their homes and cities during last weeks' Georgian attack, and the many concurring stories about Georgian troops firing artillety shells and sniping at the refugee columns, point to some serious issues.

Mr Saakashvili may have been elected democratically on a very chauvinist platform, but it does not give him the right to act so heavy-handedly against minorities, and doing so under the eyes of the Russian troops in the province was not constructive, to put it diplomatically.

It would be helpful though if Nato started flying in (token) forces into the Turkish border area with Georgia, in order to prepare the ground (and public opinion) for possible larger deployments to that area, provided of course that Turkey would allow it - just in case the Russians decide that taking Tbilisi would be a good idea after all, which I am sure they realize would cause a major international crisis.

That is a good post. However, the British Channel 4 news has just broadcast some film of Russian "peacekeepers" attacking Georgian forces in South Ossetia a week before this conflict started. There is also little doubt that the Georgians behaved extremely badly towards the Ossetians in their attacks - trying to follow Putin's Chechen example perhaps?

Saakashvili has behaved in a cretinous manner, but that still doesn't give the Russians the right to violate international borders. Given the nationalism that is fuelling Russian dreams of regaining superpower status, I seriously doubt they will take any notice of NATO troops other than as a red rag. Putin knows they would be merely for show.

Unless... President Bush is sounding more and more like our own TuffStuff. His statements would normally be dismissed as posturing except that - it's President Bush.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

(you know, the one's who got the citizenship from the Russians)?

That's how you'd normally get Russian citizenship, from the Russians.

You know, I'm surprised you still won't admit that Russia is doing this for no one but themselves. I'm glad Georgia is trying to push the Russians out of their land.

I have said that - Russia is protecting their interests in the region. Big surprise. Doesn't mean they're completely in the wrong.

That is a good post. However, the British Channel 4 news has just broadcast some film of Russian "peacekeepers" attacking Georgian forces in South Ossetia a week before this conflict started. There is also little doubt that the Georgians behaved extremely badly towards the Ossetians in their attacks - trying to follow Putin's Chechen example perhaps?

Russians, Ossetians, and Georgians, to my knowledge, were having some minor conflict before this round started. This round was started by the Georgians after they violated the ceasefire that halted the last round.

[KarlXII]

That's how you'd normally get Russian citizenship, from the Russians.



I have said that - Russia is protecting their interests in the region. Big surprise. Doesn't mean they're completely in the wrong.

Yes, Russia is protecting it's own interests....by invading Georgia......

[JR-]

That is a good post. However, the British Channel 4 news has just broadcast some film of Russian "peacekeepers" attacking Georgian forces in South Ossetia a week before this conflict started. There is also little doubt that the Georgians behaved extremely badly towards the Ossetians in their attacks - trying to follow Putin's Chechen example perhaps?

Saakashvili has behaved in a cretinous manner, but that still doesn't give the Russians the right to violate international borders. Given the nationalism that is fuelling Russian dreams of regaining superpower status, I seriously doubt they will take any notice of NATO troops other than as a red rag. Putin knows they would be merely for show.

Unless... President Bush is sounding more and more like our own TuffStuff. His statements would normally be dismissed as posturing except that - it's President Bush.

not to criticise the rest of the post, i agree with it, but another way of phrasing the final sentence might be; that GWB is sincere in his stated desire, and firm in his intention, to see an end to russia's overreaction to georgia's foolish offensive?

[Husar]

You still think the Russians are noble peacekeepers? Are they still trying to protect Russian citizens (you know, the one's who got the citizenship from the Russians)?

You know, I'm surprised you still won't admit that Russia is doing this for no one but themselves. I'm glad Georgia is trying to push the Russians out of their land.

You know, there is another country that invaded a country far away that had no citizens of the first country, saying this other country had weapons of mass destruction. Turned out that was a blatant lie but that country is still occupying the other country and now it thinks it can complain about Russia doing a counter attack after Georgia shelled (that means shot at and likely killed, just to make that clear) russian citizens in a disputed province, keep in mind those people accepted the russian citizenship, unless you can find me a source saying they were forced to take it at gunpoint.

I do not really care what alignment you have but if you break a ceasefire, you're just asking for trouble and Georgia gets that trouble now. It's just too bad that there may be georgians/ossetians who did not want any of this but get fired at anyway, though my usual advice for them is get the hell out of there and come back when it's over.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Yes, Russia is protecting it's own interests....by invading Georgia......

Protecting its own interests...by defending South Ossetia...

[KarlXII]

Protecting its own interests...by defending South Ossetia...

You honestly call what they're doing "defending South Ossetia"?

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

You honestly call what they're doing "defending South Ossetia"?

Well, yes, it's rather obvious that that is what's going on right now. You may remember the part where Georgia attacked South Ossetia, as Husar outlined in the excellent post above mine.

[Devastatin Dave]

Also, I'm not sure why people in this thread think that shelling a civilian population is a perfectly acceptable way of dealing with rebels.

Are you kidding? Several here get in this thread get a boner if anyone ever mentions what NATO did to the Serbs. We bombed civilian Serbs in that conflict like a bad Dresden reenactment. Personally, I'm just waiting for the strongly worded statement from the UN. That'll show 'em!!!

[rvg]

Protecting its own interests...by defending South Ossetia...

That is no longer the case. It is now an outright war of aggression against Georgia. Had the Russians stayed within the confines of South Ossetia, your argument would have been true, but that has now changed. One thing to remember is that this war will most certainly not go unnoticed by other neighbors of Russia, and *they* in turn will be far more receptive towards the idea of joining NATO ASAP. Ukraine is pretty much a done deal at this point. Others may follow, maybe even the central asian republics.

[Ice]

Well, yes, it's rather obvious that that is what's going on right now. You may remember the part where Georgia attacked South Ossetia, as Husar outlined in the excellent post above mine.

Yes, that's why they are attacking Georgian forces and installations outside said zone.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Yes, that's why they are attacking Georgian forces and installations outside said zone.

To destroy Georgia's military capacity, for whatever reason. That's what you do in a war.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Banquo - what have I been calling for? Some NATO response. I'm not calling for war or a NATO intervention on the side of Georgia. I'm calling for something similar to what Adrian has called for PLUS the eventual inclusion of Georgia into NATO.

This has been the agenda of most western states AND Georgia. The conflict has become more widespread through doing nothing and more lives have been affected. A NATO presence in Turkey with the intent on moving in as Peacekeepers may give the conflict a much needed ceasefire. Russia would realize that the stakes were increasing and might be more likely to fall back into Ossetia and Abkhazia - since they have already realized their objectives.

In the ceasefire, if NATO would be too difficult to deal with for the Russians in the short term, their mere presence would serve as a great bargaining chip for the U.N. to use to permanently draw down the conflict through negotiating a UN peacekeeping mission. In the end, all we would have done was put NATO troops in a participating member nation with possibilities.

Do I sound like an ultra-nationalist hothead here?

[Rhyfelwyr]

Noticed on the news tonight there was a video of Russian-backed rebels firing against Georgian positions one week before the main conflict arose. Although I'm not sure of its reliability, this would appear to show that Russia has agitated Georgia into reacting.

[Devastatin Dave]

.

Do I sound like an ultra-nationalist hothead here?

No, but in the "Stick your head in the sand and hope it goes away" land, you're a Nazi.

[Kagemusha]

No, but in the "Stick your head in the sand and hope it goes away" land, you're a Nazi.

Escalating the crisis with a nuclear power is sure a smart idea. Russia is no Serbia. Georgia gave Russia casus belli with its own actions, braking the ceasefire and how much as you might like it, Russia has muscle enough in its nuclear arsenal that will prevent anyone from beating it to submission and they know it. So negotiations are the only way, otherwise soon Georgia will have a puppet government planted by the Russia once they have over run Georgia.

[rvg]

No, but in the "Stick your head in the sand and hope it goes away" land, you're a Nazi.

The word "Nazi" should be replaced with "person with a different outlook" and all guns should be replaced with walkie-talkies.

[Ice]

To destroy Georgia's military capacity, for whatever reason. That's what you do in a war.

War? The Russian invasion of Georgia was said to protect the "Russian" (I still laugh at that because Russia pretty much gave citizenship to people living in Georgia and called them Russians), not to go to war with Georgia and topple the government although anyone can see this seems to be their goal.

Edit: Can you explain the massing of Russian troops at the border of Georgia months before the invasion?

I'm having a hard time why people refuse to see what Russia is really trying to do.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Here is Denis MacShane on the situation with Russia.

Link

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Georgia: We must unite to resist Russian aggression

By Denis MacShane
Last Updated: 12:01am BST 11/08/2008


At least when Russian tanks rolled into Czechoslovakia exactly 40 years ago they did not shoot to kill. Nor did Russian planes bomb civilians or fly low over European cities to terrify inhabitants. And the Russian invasion of a nominally sovereign republic was covered by finding some local Czech communists who signed a Kremlin-drafted agreement in captivity.

Czechoslovakia was once described by a Conservative prime minister as "a faraway country of which we know nothing". Many may feel similarly about Georgia. But the frontiers of today's Europe now stretch to the Black Sea. Britain's energy supplies depend on a narrow pipeline stretching from Azerbaijan, across Georgia, to Turkey.

The failure of foreign policy in the 1990s led to a million or more people from Balkan states flooding into northern Europe as asylum seekers, many heading for our shores. As jihadist Islamism seeks new terrorism bases further east, Britain's security now requires engagement in the troubled arc of instability from eastern Turkey to the states of the Caucasus and all the countries ending in "stan".

Into this stewpot, Vladimir Putin has dropped - literally - a bombshell. By ordering a full-scale military invasion of Georgia, he has revealed the true face of his autocratic rule. By flying in person to the scene as if he was field commander-in-chief, he is showing the world that Russia will revert to being a military power willing to bully and threaten its neighbours.
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Two months ago, I asked Russia's EU ambassador who was in charge of Russia's foreign and defence policy. After a moment's hesitation, he replied: "The constitutional position is clear. It is the president of Russia." One can only feel sorry for the hapless Dimitri Medvedev, the placeman installed as president by Putin, who stepped down to the theoretically inferior position of prime minister. Like Stalin, who never had a grander title than general secretary of the Communist party, we now see a Russian voshd - chief - totally in charge. Poor Medvedev promised Russian support at the G8 for strong UN language on Zimbabwe, only to be disowned on his return to Moscow. Again today, Putin shows who is running Russia.

To be sure, the efforts of the democratically elected government in Tbilisi to establish its control over all of its territory was clumsy. South Ossetia has been promised full autonomy with respect for its Russian culture and languages - the same as, say, a Catalonia in Spain, or the French-speaking cantons of Switzerland. But this was not acceptable to the Kremlin, which has a group of corrupt cronies in place in South Ossetia.

Nor will this crisis remain on Russia's south-eastern flank. Putin does not fully accept the sovereignty of the Baltic states, with sizeable Russian minorities who arrived there after Stalin snuffed out the independence of Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania in 1939. Russia has already launched a cyber-war that shut down Estonia's government and economic life for 24 hours. Putin has also demanded a Russian corridor across Lithuanian territory to the ex-Soviet enclave of Königsberg, where Kant wrote his theory of perpetual peace.

Now called Kaliningrad, the former Prussian city was host to an infamous meeting of Putin, Chirac and Schröder at which they mocked Tony Blair's support for overthrowing Saddam Hussein. It was in Kaliningrad that Putin offered a job to Schröder as boss of the company building an oil pipeline in the Baltic to bypass the cheaper land route over Poland. Swedish diplomats worry that, once it is built, the Russians will exercise security oversight over the pipeline and turn the Baltic Sea into a zone of naval confrontation.

Russia has never accepted the loss of the old Soviet empire. Like British Right-wingers who dream of the days when the Union flag fluttered over parts of the world where English was spoken, the Russians still feel the loss of status when the end of communism forced the Kremlin to disgorge the Baltic states, Ukraine and Georgia.

Russia under Putin has energy wealth and thus the money to spend on arms and aggressive foreign policy. Moscow continues to bluster and threaten the Baltic states, has cut off energy supplies to countries it wants to lean on and, as Britain knows, has bullied the British Council, interfered in BP and Shell's commercial operations, and even harassed the British ambassador when he went out to buy food for the embassy cat. And then there is the Litvinenko murder, where the response of Putin was to put the man Scotland Yard wanted to question into the Duma with the immunity of an MP.

At the UN, Russia sabotages efforts to solve the Kosovo problem and lined up with Mugabe. In other international bodies, the Russians refuse to co-operate except on their own terms. The most bizarre example is the Council of Europe, which admitted Russia as a member even though Russia refuses to accept the authority of the European Court of Human Rights. In the Council of Europe, Conservative MPs sit in the same group as Putin's stooges, and Tory MPs even tried to install a Kremlin placeman as president last year.

In contrast to Conservatives cuddling up to the bear, Britain's Foreign Secretary, David Miliband, has been commendably firm in the Commons on Russia, showing a steel hand behind his smile. But Britain alone cannot face down the new Russian aggression. This requires a united response from Europe. Unfortunately, too many Right-wing leaders in today's EU, notably Angela Merkel in Berlin and Silvio Berlusconi in Rome, appear to want to give Putin the benefit of the doubt.

This allows Moscow to divide and play. The idea of a common foreign policy and the means to implement it in the Lisbon Treaty are anathema to Eurosceptics; but a disunited EU will be easy meat for Russia and leave America without a partner of weight to face down Russian bullying.

The dispute in Georgia will find some temporary brokered settlement. But the bloody assault unleashed by Putin adds new dangers and difficulties to Europe. Once again, Russia threatens peace, stability, the rule of law and the rights of sovereign democracies on its border.

Denis MacShane is Labour MP for Rotherham and was minister for Europe under Tony Blair

Here is another article on how crazy Russia has become. It also rips on Chuck Schumer.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

McCOTTER: Russia's invasion of Georgia
Thaddeus G. McCotter

OP-ED:

The invasion of Georgia by Russia last Friday confirms that a new generation of Lenin's "useful idiots" are alive and well. Senator Charles Schumer, apparently now a lead negotiator for Russia, recently opined that Russia could be persuaded to support stronger sanctions against Iran if, in return, the United States refused to share its anti-ballistic missile shield with our allies in Central and Eastern Europe (CEE).

In support of his deal to feed CEE to the revanchist Russian bear, Senator Schumer claimed our missile shield "mocks Mr. Putin's dream of eventually restoring Russian hegemony over Eastern Europe."

It should. Mr. Schumer noted: "[Former KGB Lt. Colonel and current Russian strong man Vladimir Putin] seeks to regain the power and greatness Russia had before the fall of the Soviet Union." The Senior Senator from New York says this like it's a good thing, failing to note that this brand of "power and greatness" was premised on the Soviet Union's authoritarian grip over CEE nations' peoples; the poignant savagery of the gulags; and the unpardonable sin of tens of millions slaughtered in the name of Mother Motherland.

The Russian tanks and planes rolling into the sovereign country of Georgia (eerily reminiscent of Afghanistan in 1979) save as a reminder that Russia continues to exert economic and military pressure to strong-arm her former prisoners into a less formal, but no less real, subservience. This week Russia cut the Czech Republic's crude-oil supplies by 40 percent in retaliation for agreeing to allow radar associated with the missile shield to be installed there.

This comes two weeks after threatening military action against both the Czech Republic and the United States in an effort to prevent that agreement. Three weeks ago, after Lithuania banned the display of communist and Soviet symbols, Russian-based hackers attacked 300 Lithuanian government and private Web sites. In defiant contravention of its own promises, Russia still maintains a military presence in Moldova, and Russian military aircraft routinely violate Georgian airspace.

This isn't new behavior, either. Russia's thuggish instincts have been on display for years. And if that weren't enough, Russia's saber-rattling isn't limited to his nearby neighbors. In the past year, Comrade Putin has made a spectacle of building relations with Venezuelan dictator Hugo Chavez, and just this week, Putin opined that perhaps it was time for Russia to re-engage with Cuba.

Mr. Putin's Bolshevik nostalgia trip notwithstanding, the West won the Cold War and freed CEE's peoples from the Soviet Union. It is, therefore, both strategically injurious and morally repugnant to propose a puerile and cynical return to by rewarding Russia's "bad neighbor" policy with the free peoples of CEE in exchange for Russia abiding its own and the world's interest in preventing the terrorist state of Iran from developing a nuclear weapon.

But simply undercutting American foreign and defense policy isn't enough for Mr. Schumer. Again, acting as Russia's agent in place, he proposes that American taxpayers make annual payments to Russia for its losses incurred from trade sanctions against Iran. By Mr. Schumer's own reckoning, this system of fealty payments would cost American taxpayers approximately $2 billion to $3 billion per year.

Of course, tightening international economic sanctions against Iran is a noble and necessary goal, but appeasement will not attain it. Ultimately, by infringing the sovereignty and endangering the liberty of our Central and Eastern European allies and by prostrating America before Russia, the senator's modest proposal will embolden every international bad actor to extort the United States and the free world for concessions, both economic and strategic. In sum, rewarding bad behavior only begets more bad behavior.

That simply isn't acceptable. Regain power and greatness, indeed. If only Mr. Schumer showed this kind of dedication in ensuring his own country's strength and security.

Thaddeus G. McCotter is a Republican congressman from Michigan and chairman of the House Republican Policy Committee.

[JR-]

i already commented in that article that it is a complete load of cack.

denis is a muppet.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

War? The Russian invasion of Georgia was said to protect the "Russian" not to go to war with Georgia and topple the government although anyone can see this seems to be their goal.

We don't have evidence yet that Russia is trying to topple the Georgian government, but Russia has been, de facto (and I am aware I am using those two words a lot) at war with Georgia ever since Georgia crossed the border, broke a ceasefire, shelled civilians, and fired on Russian peacekeepers (who were originally told to seek cover rather than respond). Russia is breaking the military capacity of the Georgians, who were the aggressors in this round of the fighting.

(I still laugh at that because Russia pretty much gave citizenship to people living in Georgia and called them Russians)

They gave citizenship to Ossetians, and the Ossetians wanted the citizenship and took the citizenship. Like someone else has said in this thread, unless you find evidence that they were forced to take citizenship at gunpoint, this is an invalid point.

Edit: Can you explain the massing of Russian troops at the border of Georgia months before the invasion?

Because it's good to be prepared for a situation that can occur? Can I have a link about this "massing of forces" as well?

[rvg]

So, how do you then justify Russian subjugation of Chechnya while at the same time portraying Georgian attempts to regain what is clearly *their* land as aggression?

[ICantSpellDawg]

I'm sure we'd all love to hear it. I supported Russia there because it was a very similar border dispute. That was back when they weren't completely insane.

[Adrian II]

Where are you reading about the Ossetian refugee experience? I haven't found much on that.

Many papers carry such reports. Here is one from The Independent, bearng out reports about Georgian bombing of hospitals and such in Tskhinvali:

Eyewitness accounts from those sheltering in the makeshift camps set up by the Russian Emergency Ministry match the official claims of the Russian government and the South Ossetian rebel leadership.

Most people described scenes of horror, chaos and destruction. Few buildings are left standing in Tskhinvali, refugees said. Aerial and artillery bombardment had destroyed the hospital, maternity ward and cemetery, while most of the city's housing lies in ruins.

Linky

[ICantSpellDawg]

Thanks.

[JR-]

They gave citizenship to Ossetians, and the Ossetians wanted the citizenship and took the citizenship. Like someone else has said in this thread, unless you find evidence that they were forced to take citizenship at gunpoint, this is an invalid point.

they took citizenship because they claim to come from a nation that no-one recognises, therefore they could not travel. try getting into the UK with a south ossettian passport and see what happens.

so the russians offered and the rebels-without-a-holiday accepted. after all, how are all the russian controlled criminal gangs supposed to go about their 'business' if they can't do dodgy dealings in foreign parts?

[ICantSpellDawg]

President Bush is about to speak on major news networks. Lets hear what the official line is, eh?

[Mailman653]

An interesting analysis on the BBC

Early lessons from S Ossetia conflict

[KarlXII]

Because it's good to be prepared for a situation that can occur?

How about I punch you in the face? I mean, it's good to be prepared for a situation to occur, right?