The Midgard Saga II [Concluded]

**Gaius Scribonius Curio** · 08-13-2008, 03:20

Gah!!!

I hate my time-zone...

I have to say that I believe Tratorix's reveal, particularly due to the evidence from the write-up above. Motep I am not so sure of... further reading on my part is required.

@ Husar: You suspect due to the fact I'm analysing stuff, give me an example of a mafia game I've played where I haven't acted like this... Or if you want to prove yourself the bigger man I'll meet you on the battlefield (and rip your heart from your unfortunate body...).

Seriously no more challenges for today would be a good idea. I'd echo the calls for Thor to protect Motep (although I'm not sure he's is genuine), and his supposed champion.

**Seamus Fermanagh** · 08-13-2008, 03:36

Well, the write-up makes it clear that Tratorix was no Jotun. If he was faking his PM -- which now seems unlikely -- he was a champion faking for his ruler (and if so, kudos to you). This does lend credence to Motep's reveal as well. I love analysis, but it does sometimes lead to the wrong answer.

As to my assessment of holmgang scores, I refer you to the write-up by Sigurd at the end of Midgard I:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

This does NOT mean that Sigurd is using the exact same rubric this time, but my assessments were based upon this data.

**LittleGrizzly** · 08-13-2008, 04:00

Damn this is one confusing mess!!

So it seems tratorix was telling the truth ? unless seamus idea about him being a champion sacrificing for his ruler is right, makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside but unfortunatly the events seemed to happen to quickly and i think tratorix reveal was spot on, motep's i am not too sure about, it does seem like a good idea not to lynch him next round though, let us see if we can somehow confirm his role rather than lynch yet another pro town role, because as it is we have lynched a god and a lord, we have to get this back on track somehow...

GH does seem slightly suspicious as he was wrong about tratorix and well im unsure if he's right about motep or not, in fairness though there does seem to be a hell of a lot of confusion going round, so it could just as easily be a pro-town who is as confused as i am.... i have to apologise for not casting my vote but in the circumstances i don't really think i could have helped, the only thing i know now is that voting for tratorix was a bad idea...

Gah! my head is still spinning!

**Motep** · 08-13-2008, 04:10

Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly

Damn this is one confusing mess!!

So it seems tratorix was telling the truth ? unless seamus idea about him being a champion sacrificing for his ruler is right, makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside but unfortunatly the events seemed to happen to quickly and i think tratorix reveal was spot on, motep's i am not too sure about, it does seem like a good idea not to lynch him next round though, let us see if we can somehow confirm his role rather than lynch yet another pro town role, because as it is we have lynched a god and a lord, we have to get this back on track somehow...

GH does seem slightly suspicious as he was wrong about tratorix and well im unsure if he's right about motep or not, in fairness though there does seem to be a hell of a lot of confusion going round, so it could just as easily be a pro-town who is as confused as i am.... i have to apologise for not casting my vote but in the circumstances i don't really think i could have helped, the only thing i know now is that voting for tratorix was a bad idea...

Gah! my head is still spinning!

I dont blame you, and it would have been best would I have not voted in the first place.

To tell the truth, I harly understand what the hell is goin on, and I went through it while it happened! We will know in the end , however.

**KukriKhan** · 08-13-2008, 04:43

Cloying sympathy for the lowly townie = scum.

No 'Norse' = scum.

Even I, a lowly human, received

translation: "human"

Our host may have dropped the ball, but I sincerely doubt it.

Motep is our next target.

I regret that my votes have led to killing of town-friendly roles. But even if that is true (that they were town-friendly) the fact is: they didn't help us much so far, so have deserved their fate(s). If you have a power role, tell someone you trust... lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way - in my very humble peasant opinion. Don't just sit there polishing your crown and admiring your reflection, HELP the good guys.

Meanwhile: those who didn't vote = look out. My little 4 (now that the roll of the dice decided) Holmgang score is itching to either whack you, or reveal your scummyness.

**LittleGrizzly** · 08-13-2008, 05:10

Don't challenge today, im not sure what the thinking is but aslong as the right holmgang challenge is picked today some people seem to think it will reveal some information to us, it can't hurt to try as far as im concerned...

**KukriKhan** · 08-13-2008, 05:41

Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly

Don't challenge today, im not sure what the thinking is but aslong as the right holmgang challenge is picked today some people seem to think it will reveal some information to us, it can't hurt to try as far as im concerned...

Fine. Roger, wilco. I admit: having won a single Holmgang against another townie has emboldened me. It's probably better if I shut up and let the power-roles talk more.

**pevergreen** · 08-13-2008, 05:55

I can't let my #1 suspect keep going.

Originally Posted by KK

Even I, a lowly human, received

Well I didnt, unless Firefox is blocking it without telling me.

**Andres** · 08-13-2008, 08:26

Hmmmm...

The Jotun have to kill the lords, don't they?

So a Jotun taking the risk of exposing himself by pressing for the lynching of a Lord is a possibility.

Let's see, GeneralHankerchief wants us to lynch Lord A, but not Lord B. When Lord A dies, it becomes clear that GeneralHankerchief was wrong. If we therefore assume he is Jotun, we assume that Lord B is a fake and lynch him.

Could it be that GH is a Jotun with a masterplan, sacrifycing himself to take down two Lords?

I have a pretty decent Holmgang score. Do we really want Motep, a possible Lord, to fight GH? If not, I can challenge GH to narrow down the odds of Motep actually having to fight.

On the other hand, Motep's role pm looks far less genuine than the one Tratorix posted.

And in the worst case, we are losing our time by focusing on both GH and Motep...

Gah, gah, gah! Where's Kommodus when you need him?

**pevergreen** · 08-13-2008, 09:06

We all know its not a great idea to rely on Kommo.

I don't really suspect GH, not as much as KK and them Motep.

While im here, can I get a reply to that unrelated PM Andres?

**Kagemusha** · 08-13-2008, 09:23

Originally Posted by Andres

Hmmmm...

The Jotun have to kill the lords, don't they?

So a Jotun taking the risk of exposing himself by pressing for the lynching of a Lord is a possibility.

Let's see, GeneralHankerchief wants us to lynch Lord A, but not Lord B. When Lord A dies, it becomes clear that GeneralHankerchief was wrong. If we therefore assume he is Jotun, we assume that Lord B is a fake and lynch him.

Could it be that GH is a Jotun with a masterplan, sacrifycing himself to take down two Lords?

I have a pretty decent Holmgang score. Do we really want Motep, a possible Lord, to fight GH? If not, I can challenge GH to narrow down the odds of Motep actually having to fight.

On the other hand, Motep's role pm looks far less genuine than the one Tratorix posted.

And in the worst case, we are losing our time by focusing on both GH and Motep...

Gah, gah, gah! Where's Kommodus when you need him?

Calm down good man.

The beaty of the plan is that if Motep is indeed a king, he wont fight GH himself, but his champion will take on GH, also proving simultaneosly that Motep is indeed a king. If no Champion will emerge, we can judge that Motep is a fake and lynch him if he kills GH.

**Craterus** · 08-13-2008, 09:28

That's not strictly true though, is it Kage?

The PM clearly states that Sigurd will PM Motep to ask if he wishes his champion to take his place. Now that he has revealed, what would be the point in hiding behind his champion?

**Gaius Scribonius Curio** · 08-13-2008, 09:31

Furthermore as far as I understand it, kings are stronger than champions, seen as he has been revealed. There would be little point in switching in.

**Kagemusha** · 08-13-2008, 09:35

Originally Posted by Craterus

That's not strictly true though, is it Kage?

The PM clearly states that Sigurd will PM Motep to ask if he wishes his champion to take his place. Now that he has revealed, what would be the point in hiding behind his champion?

Well the point being that otherwise we will hang him high the next day. On the other hand if he comes through ok.Thor knows who to protect. By using his champion he can clear himself in the eyes of the town.Dont you guys see the forest from the trees?

**Gaius Scribonius Curio** · 08-13-2008, 09:42

Its quite possible, indeed likely, that the Jotun will have targeted Motep tonight anyway, why would they not target him (unless he is Jotun), when he has revealed a PM, even at the risk it is fake? In other words Thor should protect Motep tonight anyway, just in case.

**Kagemusha** · 08-13-2008, 09:45

Originally Posted by Gaius Scribonius Curio

Its quite possible, indeed likely, that the Jotun will have targeted Motep tonight anyway, why would they not target him (unless he is Jotun), when he has revealed a PM, even at the risk it is fake? In other words Thor should protect Motep tonight anyway, just in case.

agreed.

**Sarathos** · 08-13-2008, 09:55

Originally Posted by GSC

Its quite possible, indeed likely, that the Jotun will have targeted Motep tonight anyway, why would they not target him (unless he is Jotun), when he has revealed a PM, even at the risk it is fake? In other words Thor should protect Motep tonight anyway, just in case.

But what if Motep's reveal is fake? Then you are protecting a Jotun with a God whilst giving them the freedom to kill, do know absurd that is....

**pevergreen** · 08-13-2008, 09:58

Originally Posted by Sarathos

do know absurd that is....

No, I dont.

Motep selected for Holmgang:

He either fights himself, possibly killing GH, and giving clues as to both their strengths. This could result in Motep being lynched.
He gets his champion, if he has one, to fight for him. This quite possibly reveals another decent townsperson to the mafia.
Or he doesnt get selected for Holmgang at all.

**Kagemusha** · 08-13-2008, 09:58

Originally Posted by Sarathos

But what if Motep's reveal is fake? Then you are protecting a Jotun with a God whilst giving them the freedom to kill, do know absurd that is....

And if you are wrong, another King would be dead. I think protecting a Jotuin for one round is lot smaller mistake then getting another king killed.

**Craterus** · 08-13-2008, 10:04

Originally Posted by Kagemusha

And if you are wrong, another King would be dead. I think protecting a Jotuin for one round is lot smaller mistake then getting another king killed.

Then why are you calling for his lynch tomorrow? At least try and be consistent.

**naut** · 08-13-2008, 10:05

pever's PM reveal looks fake.

**Andres** · 08-13-2008, 10:13

Originally Posted by Kagemusha

Calm down good man.

The beaty of the plan is that if Motep is indeed a king, he wont fight GH himself, but his champion will take on GH, also proving simultaneosly that Motep is indeed a king. If no Champion will emerge, we can judge that Motep is a fake and lynch him if he kills GH.

Well, it's still early in the game isn't it?

We already managed to lynch one King, do we really want to lose a second one in Holmgang?

His Champion will have to pm Sigurd to take his place. What if his champion isn't online? Also, what's the point in having the Champion reveal as well, since his King has already been exposed?

If we assume that GeneralHankerchief is a clever player and Jotun, than he has wonderfully manipulated us to take down two Kings + reveal another Champion + surviving himself.

Don't you think there's something fishy going on?

Tratorix' reveal mentioned a confirmed innocent as his champion. Why did GH insist on lynching Tratorix while we could have easily checked the validity of his claim? GH is more than clever enough to have realised that himself.

Why did GH vigorously defend Motep, who posted almost the exact same role pm, without mentioning the Champion, ergo no confirmed innocent to vouch for him?

The claim by Motep is most likely genuine as well, but it seemed far less genuine than Tratorix' claim, which could have been easily counterclaimed once TB got online, yet GH decided to go after Tratorix and to believe Motep.

Why was lynching Tratorix so urgent? You were all yelling for Sigurd to extend the round, while you could have easily waited for another turn before lynching Tratorix.

I'm pointing fingers at all those who were yelling "there's not enough time, please extend the round", while you could have easily argued: "unvote Motep and Tratorix, we can't risk to lynch a possible Lord this early in the game, so we'll wait for another round."

Anyway, GeneralHankerchief, imo used bad logic to lynch a Lord and to raise suspicion towards another King.

I have pretty high stats and I'm willing to test my luck against that Jotun scumbag who already gave me bad vibes in the previous round:

Challenge : GeneralHankerchief

**Andres** · 08-13-2008, 10:15

Originally Posted by Craterus

Then why are you calling for his lynch tomorrow? At least try and be consistent.

Good point.

**Craterus** · 08-13-2008, 10:18

Why is GH so eager to be in a Holmgang? Surely he's running the risk of being revealed as a Jotun by doing so?

No, it doesn't make sense to me.

**Andres** · 08-13-2008, 10:32

Originally Posted by Craterus

Why is GH so eager to be in a Holmgang? Surely he's running the risk of being revealed as a Jotun by doing so?

No, it doesn't make sense to me.

He won't be revealed as Jotun during the Holmgang. In Midgard I, all assumptions based on the write-ups of the Holmgang mislead the town.

Ignore Holmgang write-ups, they were misleading in Midgard I and I don't think Sigurd will make it easier for the town in this game.

Look at how I, a townie with a score of 2 easily defeated sapi, who was a King with a score of 5 or 6 in Midgard I. This was used against me and when I got lynched, I didn't go to valhalla and everybody assumed I was Jotun.

Use the Holmgang to try to kill suspects. Don't expect more from it.

**pevergreen** · 08-13-2008, 10:33

Originally Posted by Rythmic

pever's PM reveal looks fake.

How so, not only did I have no reason to reveal, it's going against everyone elses claims. I have no runes, I stick by that. I deleted only one line off my PM, because I want to be able to verify if anyone claims that PM as well later.

I havent seen a townie pm claimed, so I presume its the right one...

**Craterus** · 08-13-2008, 10:38

Originally Posted by Andres

Use the Holmgang to try to kill suspects. Don't expect more from it.

I feel you may already be expecting too much.

If the Jotun have the best Holmgang ratings in the game, then what use is giving them the opportunity to (probably) kill you? Surely just helps them along?

Especially if they're not going to be revealed by it.

Where did pever reveal? Privately?

**Kagemusha** · 08-13-2008, 10:42

Originally Posted by Craterus

Then why are you calling for his lynch tomorrow? At least try and be consistent.

I have explained the simple and effective plan for bunch of times now. But i will spell it out again.

1.Thor should protect Motep this night
2. Motep should use his champion in homgang, to show that he is what he says he is.
3. If Motep comes clean and uses his Champion, we know that he is a king and should be protected./If not he should be lynched as he has been lying and is propably a Jotun.
4. If GH and Moteps Holmgang does not happen, we should put him against someone as alone Holmgang the next round.

The idea is to actually find out for certain what Motep is. I cant understand how you call that inconsistent, when otherwise we are left guessing. Moteps champion is expendable, if he is a king, because then he can defend himself in Holmgang while Thor can protect him during nights. What part in this is inconsistent or hard to understand?

**Andres** · 08-13-2008, 10:43

Originally Posted by Craterus

I feel you may already be expecting too much.

If the Jotun have the best Holmgang ratings in the game, then what use is giving them the opportunity to (probably) kill you? Surely just helps them along?

Especially if they're not going to be revealed by it.

Where did pever reveal? Privately?

Ha!

What are the options?

a) wait until the Jotun kills me at night;
b) fight the Jotun with a high probability of dieing during the attempt, but with a real chance of actually killing one of them. If a peasant was able to kill a King in Midgard I, then surely I must now be able to kill a Jotun.

I prefer to die while trying to kill a Jotun like a real warrior, than dieing in my sleep!

**Craterus** · 08-13-2008, 10:44

Why he should risk his (innocent) champion just to prove something to you? That's what I'm not understanding.

I believe the reveal, clearly you don't. Either that, or you're Jotun and you're not satisfied that the town has already lynched 2 key figures and you have the laughable audacity to ask for one more.

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