The Midgard Saga II [Concluded]

[Andres]

Just remember what you guys did last time.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

CountArach: 6 (Andres, glyphz, Husar, Kukrikhaan, Privateerkev, Warmaster H )

Your point being...?

CA was a typical random round 1 lynch. You are comparing apples with oranges. It's not like CA revealed or so, he was just unlucky enough to be the victim of a first round bandwagon...

[LittleGrizzly]

Seeing as you seem to be dead in the water already, maybe you could explain your reasoning to some of our slower participants like Grizzy who really really doesnt get it ?

EDIT: for clarity i was talking to GH in reference to his comment about you really don't get it, maybe you will after im dead...

[GeneralHankerchief]

Seeing as you seem to be dead in the water already, maybe you could explain your reasoning to some of our slower participants like Grizzy who really really doesnt get it ?

Was that directed at me?

[Privateerkev]

I thought he was guilty.

why?

The bolded stuff says "Hankar 'The Chieftain'", my role (war veteran), and 4 (my Holmgang score).

That information could have easily been gleaned from Midgard 1 which I know you played in. Your "reveal" proves nothing.

That wasn't yelling, that was an offhand dismissal. When I yell online I use italics and/or exclamation points.

It was harsh. Maybe in the spirit of mafia games but obviously not in the spirit of the .org since a Mod asked you to tone it down.

Wrong.

Then explain how it helps the town more than it hurts it?

I'm sorry if you consider one offhand dismissal of a situation you clearly don't have a grasp of "harsh language."

Strawman and insincere apology. Do you have anything more constructive to add?

[GeneralHankerchief]

why?

I didn't like the fact that he had Norse at the top and didn't want to reveal it.

That information could have easily been gleaned from Midgard 1 which I know you played in. Your "reveal" proves nothing.

I didn't aim to prove anything, I just answered woad's question.

Then explain how it helps the town more than it hurts it?

Because I'm not utilizing the Holmgang system to kill anybody. I'm using it to die. (Grizzy, there's your explanation)

Strawman and insincere apology.

It wasn't an apology at all.

[LittleGrizzly]

Was that directed at me?

Yes, sorry i got my edit in a bit slow and have a bad habit of being too vague...

i was talking to you (gh) in reference to your comment about PK really not getting it, maybe you will after im dead...

Edit: damn i am too slow !!!

Thanks for the clarification GH, i wasn't sure if it was linked to some part of the game or not...

[Privateerkev]

I didn't like the fact that he had Norse at the top and didn't want to reveal it.

Why should he reveal it in public? It would just give the Jotun one more tool for making fake role PM's. He revealed it to me in private without knowing what it meant. I translated it and it confirmed he is who he said he was.

I didn't aim to prove anything, I just answered woad's question.

So you "revealed" without really meaning to "reveal"? It was just a casual "reveal"? Accidental perhaps?

Because I'm not utilizing the Holmgang system to kill anybody. I'm using it to die. (Grizzy, there's your explanation)

But you might kill someone. And it might be a townie. Which is bad for the town. If you truly wanted to die you would just suicide. That is far less hurtful to the town.

It wasn't an apology at all.

Well, at least you admit it. But erecting strawmans against me will do nothing to further this discussion. In the future, refute my actual points. Don't just get frustrated at me for ruining your attempt to allieviate your own boredom.

[Csargo]

CA acted wierd. He bounced his vote around a whole lot for weak reasons. On D1, with so little evidence, he seemed like the best lynch choice. This ended up being a major error on our part but at the time it seemed like the best thing to do.

People with power-town roles need to keep in mind that we don't know who they are. So if they act suspicious, they are going to be voted on.

So did everyone else. Now you're doing the exact same thing to GH. Keep that in mind. You've already hurt the town far more than GH could, unless he's Jotun, but I doubt that.

Your point being...?

CA was a typical random round 1 lynch. You are comparing apples with oranges. It's not like CA revealed or so, he was just unlucky enough to be the victim of a first round bandwagon...

You're doing the exact same thing here...again

I'll agree that GH's Holmganging is probably not the best idea, but really it isn't going to hurt the town that much in the long run.

[Husar]

My rating is 4. I'm not going to be winning any title belts. Just let me fight.

What's your role exactly then, please?

A Jotun probably has crazy high Holmgang stats. So, they will probably whoop anyone in Holmgang except a God.

Uhm, no, their Holmgang stats are probably high, but they might not whoop just anyone, sigurd explained his system to me after the last game and IIRC there was quite some randomness involved, the stats are a hint but they do by no means mean that the better fighter is very likely to win, unless the system changed.

A Jotun probably doesn't have to worry about accidently Holmganging a God since Gods are less likely to challenge. Unlike Jotun, Gods don't want to kill townies.

If the Jotun are challenging then it doesn't matter whether the gods are likely to challenge or not.

So if a Jotun can keep their identity hidden, and usually win in Holmgangs, then it is in their interest to challege every turn.

No, bollox.
There are a lot of drawbacks for them in challenging often:
1. the more often you challenge, the more attention you get, attention is bad for them unless they have some very convincing things to say.
2. the randomness, they might just lose a jotun or two, in other words a third or two of their forces
3. one idea of Holmgang is indeed that townies can try to challenge Jotun and actually win, even if their chances are not the better chances but they can win.

and then there are lynches, if we lynch one jotun and another jotun dies in holmgang, they will have only one left, I think that's a big risk for them and watching townies kill eachother is a lot safer for them and the result is the same, a townie dies.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Why should he reveal it in public? It would just give the Jotun one more tool for making fake role PM's. He revealed it to me in private without knowing what it meant. I translated it and it confirmed he is who he said he was.

I thought there was a better chance of it saying something like "Jotun" and he didn't want to publicly reveal it for fear of it being translated.

So you "revealed" without really meaning to "reveal"? It was just a casual "reveal"? Accidental perhaps?

I revealed because I no longer care one way or the other. I'm just letting you guys know what I was.

But you might kill someone. And it might be a townie. Which is bad for the town. If you truly wanted to die you would just suicide. That is far less hurtful to the town.

Pfft. No proper Norseman kills himself. It is the epitome of dishonor and shame.

Well, at least you admit it. But erecting strawmans against me will do nothing to further this discussion. In the future, refute my actual points. Don't just get frustrated at me for ruining your attempt to allieviate your own boredom.

I wasn't aware that you had any points to be refuted.

[Privateerkev]

So did everyone else. Now you're doing the exact same thing to GH. Keep that in mind. You've already hurt the town far more than GH could, unless he's Jotun, but I doubt that.

No, no one else bounced their votes around like CA did. I'm sorry he ended up being a God. But I did what I thought was the best thing with what little information I had.

As for hurting the town, don't put all of it on me. People need to take responsibility for their own suspicious behavior. If CA was not a God, or Tratorix not a King, no one would have blamed me for trying to lynch them. CA was an erratic vote changer and Tratorix was absent from the board when the Jotun were missing night actions.

Both of their behavior was suspicious and would have raised eyebrows in any other mafia game. Their roles make their deaths regrettable but do not eliminate the fact that both of these players behaved suspiciously.

If a player has a powertown role, he needs to think carefully about how his actions are perceived by the other players. That is his responsibility.

I can only act on what I know. If a powertown wants to avoid my gaze, and maintain his hidden status, he better not act "scummy." Because in the meantime I have Jotun to lynch and I will ferret them out using the ways I know.

[Andres]

I'll agree that GH's Holmganging is probably not the best idea, but really it isn't going to hurt the town that much in the long run.

It's not GH's Holmganging that bothers me, it's his insisting on lynching Tratorix.

[Privateerkev]

Uhm, no, their Holmgang stats are probably high, but they might not whoop just anyone, sigurd explained his system to me after the last game and IIRC there was quite some randomness involved, the stats are a hint but they do by no means mean that the better fighter is very likely to win, unless the system changed.

In Midgard 1, with a few exceptions, the person with the higher stat won.

If the Jotun are challenging then it doesn't matter whether the gods are likely to challenge or not.

No but the Gods are more likely statistically to survive the Holmgang. They wouldn't be a "easy Holmgang." The townies however would be easy for a Jotun to kill. It wouldn't be guarenteed but the probability of a Jotun beating a townie in Holmgang is very high.

No, bollox.
There are a lot of drawbacks for them in challenging often:
1. the more often you challenge, the more attention you get, attention is bad for them unless they have some very convincing things to say.
2. the randomness, they might just lose a jotun or two, in other words a third or two of their forces
3. one idea of Holmgang is indeed that townies can try to challenge Jotun and actually win, even if their chances are not the better chances but they can win.

Good points. But "Holmganging for the hell of it" is still bad for the town and will help the Jotun.

[Csargo]

No, no one else bounced their votes around like CA did. I'm sorry he ended up being a God. But I did what I thought was the best thing with what little information I had.

As for hurting the town, don't put all of it on me. People need to take responsibility for their own suspicious behavior. If CA was not a God, or Tratorix not a King, no one would have blamed me for trying to lynch them. CA was an erratic vote changer and Tratorix was absent from the board when the Jotun were missing night actions.

Both of their behavior was suspicious and would have raised eyebrows in any other mafia game. Their roles make their deaths regrettable but do not eliminate the fact that both of these players behaved suspiciously.

If a player has a powertown role, he needs to think carefully about how his actions are perceived by the other players. That is his responsibility.

I can only act on what I know. If a powertown wants to avoid my gaze, and maintain his hidden status, he better not act "scummy." Because in the meantime I have Jotun to lynch and I will ferret them out using the ways I know.

Everyone changes votes throughout the game, just because CA did it more, how did that make him more suspicious? It was the first round so there's not much to go on, and so you'd expect people to make multiple vote changes.

That's just funny. It's their fault that you voted for them. You make me laugh Everyone has different things they think make someone suspicious. It's all your own judgment, not their fault your judgment was bad.

Like I said before what you think may be scummy, may not be to them.

[Csargo]

It's not GH's Holmganging that bothers me, it's his insisting on lynching Tratorix.

My mistake then. For some reason I thought you were arguing the same thing as PK

[Privateerkev]

Everyone changes votes throughout the game, just because CA did it more, how did that make him more suspicious? It was the first round so there's not much to go on, and so you'd expect people to make multiple vote changes.

That's just funny. It's their fault that you voted for them. You make me laugh Everyone has different things they think make someone suspicious. It's all your own judgment, not their fault your judgment was bad.

Like I said before what you think may be scummy, may not be to them.

Yes, people are responsible for their actions in the thread. (or lack of actions as the case may be.)

With so little real evidence to go on, I vote for people based on their actions. I don't like abstaining or meatballing so I try to find real reasons to vote. Even on D1. In my opinion, this is more helpful than just abstaining. So the person I voted for ended up being powertown. I did not know that at the time and their actions were incrementally more suspcious than other actions.

I admit the matter of what is "suspicious" is highly subjective but what else are we supposed to do?

As for GH, he seems less Jotun the more he argues. I am more convinced he is a bored townie. But that does not negate the fact that Holmgangs seem to do more harm to the town than good.

If it is true that a Holmgang will not reveal a Jotun, then we can't even use it for that reason. The only thing we can use it for is to have the tiny chance of killing a Jotun. But that is only if one chooses to fight. It seems that we are far more likely to slaughter each other using the Holmgang. And I am sure the Jotun are sitting back and laughing their heads off as we do it. Because every townie that dies in Holmgang makes their job easier. Just like every townie that dies by WoG makes their job easier.

[Sigurd]

Challenges do far:

1. GeneralHankerchief vs. FactionHeir
2. Motep vs. GeneralHankerchief
3. Andres vs. GeneralHankerchief
4. Eliit Tuhkur vs. GeneralHankerchief

[seireikhaan]

I can only act on what I know. If a powertown wants to avoid my gaze, and maintain his hidden status, he better not act "scummy." Because in the meantime I have Jotun to lynch and I will ferret them out using the ways I know.

PK, there's a very good reason a pro-town role would want lynch attention. If a power role can ensure he's getting a few votes, perhaps getting very close to being lynched, then the mafia will usually leave him quite alone, giving him plenty of night phases to use their ability.

Good points. But "Holmganging for the hell of it" is still bad for the town and will help the Jotun.

Not particularly. What's bad for the town is when other townies start mercilessly attacking their own just because that one happens to be bored of being a townie and is acting out a bit. All this last 4 or so pages has been is an extremely lovely distraction for the Jotun to hide behind. Congratulations.

[TinCow]

All this last 4 or so pages has been is an extremely lovely distraction for the Jotun to hide behind.

I would personally love to move this discussion to something else useful, but it has so dominated this thread for the last several pages that I have honestly forgotten a lot of stuff that I might have been considering before. The challenges have been made and a Holmgang will occur. Let's leave it at that.

Until then, it would be far more useful if people could start looking for further evidence and irregularities in places we haven't examined in much detail yet.

[Privateerkev]

PK, there's a very good reason a pro-town role would want lynch attention. If a power role can ensure he's getting a few votes, perhaps getting very close to being lynched, then the mafia will usually leave him quite alone, giving him plenty of night phases to use their ability.

I didn't think of that.

But how am I to know the difference? If I see suspicious behavior, how do I know it is scumminess or powertown hiding in scumminess? And if I ignore suspicious behavior, what else should I use to base my lynch choice off of?

Not particularly. What's bad for the town is when other townies start mercilessly attacking their own just because that one happens to be bored of being a townie and is acting out a bit. All this last 4 or so pages has been is an extremely lovely distraction for the Jotun to hide behind. Congratulations.

At least we're not approaching anything close to the Reenk/Ichigo argument in Midgard 1 but your point is well taken.

[Csargo]

At least we're not approaching anything close to the Reenk/Ichigo argument in Midgard 1 but your point is well taken.

[Warmaster Horus]

Of course, there's always the possibility PK, GH and Andres are Jotun, or only one or two of them are. Fuelling their discussion would have been perfect for them.

Holy cow though! 680 posts, 23 pages and the third night hasn't even gone by...

[LittleGrizzly]

I think we can pretty much rule out both Andres and GH being Jotun, otherwise Andres challenge of GH would be suicidal, or a calculated risk they wouldn't get picked, im doubting it though...

I think theres a good point there though, we should be careful of people leading the discussions, often in mafia games the ones leading everyone in the thread are simply the mafia leading everyone to thier deaths

[Privateerkev]

I think theres a good point there though, we should be careful of people leading the discussions, often in mafia games the ones leading everyone in the thread are simply the mafia leading everyone to thier deaths

Which unfortunately leads to everyone being quiet. Which does not help the town...

[LittleGrizzly]

Which unfortunately leads to everyone being quiet. Which does not help the town...

Of course sometimes the mafia sit back quietly and pick everyone off, maybe theres a happy medium to be found... or maybe you can't judge too much on posting levels...

[TinCow]

Of course sometimes the mafia sit back quietly and pick everyone off, maybe theres a happy medium to be found... or maybe you can't judge too much on posting levels...

Posting levels are perfectly legitimate methods of judging people. The key is not how much someone is contributing, but whether their contributions are abnormal in comparison to their behavior in previous games. Unfortunately, this does not help the current situation very much, because all of the 'discussion leaders' in this particular 'debate' are... verbose... individuals. The only exception to this, as I understand it, is Motep, but he may only be unusually chatty because he's had his neck on the line for a good while now.

[Privateerkev]

Unfortunately, this does not help the current situation very much, because all of the 'discussion leaders' in this particular 'debate' are... verbose... individuals.

[Quintus.JC]

Mmm... a bit bored. I declare challenge on whomever the next poster is.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Challenges do far:

1. GeneralHankerchief vs. FactionHeir
2. Motep vs. GeneralHankerchief
3. Andres vs. GeneralHankerchief
4. Eliit Tuhkur vs. GeneralHankerchief

Setting aside the "does holmgang work as a townie tactic" discussion, the above list of potential fights has wonderful narrative possibilities. I hope Sigurd revels in it.



Edit: That's what I get for replying to a page 17 post without reading page 18. I won't hold you to it, QIC, but if you must let us at least use axes...or just fists.

[Quintus.JC]

Challenge: Seamus Fermanagh

edit: Am I allowed to do this for no reason?