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  1. #1
    Know the dark side Member Askthepizzaguy's Avatar
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    Default The closing arguments of Askthepizzaguy's defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galain_Ironhide View Post
    If you read it, the OP was referring to Player vs Player and in single player mode. In P v P he is absolutely right. There is no point turtling against a human player because he will just gobble you up quicker than you can say - BUT I HAVENT RECRUITED ARMOURED SWORDSMEN YET!. (Looks at Askthepizzaguys hotseat 1v1 record - what is it 8-nil or something?!)

    However in the single player game I can not and will not bring myself to blitz the map, there is just no fun in it for me (but I do admire reading up on those who have done it). If I were to do that, I think my interest in the TW series would have perished some time ago. I confess to being a "single player" Turtler, I am one of those players who loves micromanagement and waiting around for the good units to become available. It can take me months (my work has a lot to do with it as well) to finish a good camaign. Thats just how I love to play the game.

    Different strokes for different folks.

    It's 8-0, and thats not even counting those who abandoned their campaigns. Those should count as losses as well.

    If so, that would be another loss for Ichigo, Monk, and losses for Ignoramus, Elite Ferret, and some others as well.

    More like 12-0, plus a draw because I couldn't get the epic pizzaguy versus Grog (blitzmaster v blitzmaster) duel to the death working, and maybe another draw because Chaotix didn't drop on me, my computer died, and now I cant get any save files to work that werent generated by my own computer for some odd reason.

    As for your points about blitzing...

    I can get armoured swordsmen and stuff. When I blitz, my bank account is insane. All that pillaging, sacking, selling of useless crap. (No need for an armourer, ballista range, or stables in England, when I'm the HRE conquering everything else already)

    What I do is, unless I'm doing the UBER blitzes where I'm trying for a record, I occupy the largest cities and fortresses on the map and I spend all my money there. After a crusade, I have like 8-15 generals who have 5 chivalry or better, and I ship them off to my core cities to boost them up. Especially ones who already have a significant boost from the local farming and a good population. HINT: NOT DURAZZO.

    Take Rome, Take Constantinople, Take Bran, Take Palermo... turn Bologna into a fortress. Then, sack everyone and sell their stuff, and pour the profits into these areas. And send the uber chivalrous generals to govern them.

    In 20 turns, I'll have the most advanced facilities the game has to offer, (still slower than an uber blitz, but wayyyy faster than a turtle or moderate speed) and I will have a vast stretch of territory as well.

    Here's my issue.

    I honestly cannot turtle anymore. I used to... I tried to do it again. But what's stopping me?

    1. The AI will eventually betray you, so unless you share no border and are not in range of their military, the AI will invade you in pathetic fashion.

    2. Unless you disband all your forces, you typically can get a pretty awesome invasion force by turn 2 or 3, and an unstoppable one by turn 10. Then you're paying all that money for a huge stack... which is magnetically attracted to every single large, bloated, underdefended idiot AI province. You cannot resist the awesome power of the laws of physics.

    Here's a quote for everyone's signature line:

    My armies are attracted to all stupidity in the universe, with a force equal to the product of the mass of my army multiplied by the stupidity of the population, and inversely proportional to the distance between them.
    3. Because the game gives me huge armies and allows me to control them, and any human player can defeat any AI opponent even with 2:1 or 3:1 odds against you, and the AI is too stupid to rally all their forces towards my empire, I simply allow the stupidational force to attract my armies towards the fat bloated cities the AI has created by the order of highest stupidity and smallest distance.

    4. Once my armies come in contact with the enemy, they are instantly destroyed. I am not sure how. Sometimes I black out and when I wake up, I am covered in blood and I have skulls all around me, and I'm always holding a plastic picnic spoon for some reason.

    5. When the enemy army is obliterated, their undefended provinces become involuntarily occupied by my very large, victorious forces, who sack the province before I even consciously click the button. They seem to know my wishes.

    6. I must destroy their armour and troop making facilities and ransom or exterminate their prisoners. My brain will not allow me to continue the game until I do.

    7. As soon as another province is taken, the stupid people in the province are all killed or given a thorough education in warfare, and the stupidity coefficient becomes zero, and then my armies are attracted once again to the irresistable forces of stupidity around me.

    So, you see, I'm not really a blitzmaster, or a bloodthirsty conqueror, or a mass murderer. It's nature itself which compels my armies forward and, through no fault of my own, they destroy everything stupid in thier path. One might say I am completely and totally innocent in all of this. I'm being painted as some insane death god, but really, I'm just issuing orders for my troops to cleanse the world of dumbness. If there are a few million casualties along the way, what's the harm in that?

    And when I tell my troops to turtle, they don't listen. They report back to me how weak and vulnerable my enemy is, and how they are a mere one to two turn march away from my forces, and how few casualties I will take, and how those casualties are most likely militia, mercenary, or peasants, and they have taken a poll, and those people actually like dying. (!)

    So, you see folks, I've tried very hard to be a patient, moral leader. But nature itself makes me do evil things to stupid people. I'm totally blameless in all this. Would you put a kitten on trial for chasing a yarn ball? No, of course not.

    In closing, I'd just like to say how much I like kittens. The End.
    #Winstontoostrong
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  2. #2
    Relentless Bughunter Senior Member FactionHeir's Avatar
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    Default Re: The closing arguments of Askthepizzaguy's defense.

    Play using a mod that has some AI improvements.
    Want gunpowder, mongols, and timurids to appear when YOU do?
    Playing on a different timescale and never get to see the new world or just wanting to change your timescale?
    Click here to read the solution
    Annoyed at laggy battles? Check this thread out for your performance needs
    Got low fps during siege battles in particular? This tutorial is for you
    Want to play M2TW as a Vanilla experience minus many annoying bugs? Get VanillaMod Visit the forum Readme
    Need improved and faster 2H animations? Download this! (included in VanillaMod 0.93)

  3. #3
    Know the dark side Member Askthepizzaguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Turtle

    Someday, somehow, I will make you laugh, Factionheir.
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  4. #4
    Relentless Bughunter Senior Member FactionHeir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Turtle

    I think you did during MPC1 diplomacy
    Want gunpowder, mongols, and timurids to appear when YOU do?
    Playing on a different timescale and never get to see the new world or just wanting to change your timescale?
    Click here to read the solution
    Annoyed at laggy battles? Check this thread out for your performance needs
    Got low fps during siege battles in particular? This tutorial is for you
    Want to play M2TW as a Vanilla experience minus many annoying bugs? Get VanillaMod Visit the forum Readme
    Need improved and faster 2H animations? Download this! (included in VanillaMod 0.93)

  5. #5
    Know the dark side Member Askthepizzaguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Turtle

    What? The taunting from tiny Denmark didn't strike cold fear into your heart? Even when I threatened to obliterate the Sicilian Empire?

    You've got nerves of steel, my friend. Few trifle with me and live to tell the tale.


    EDIT: Forgot to add the death vikings.

    viking

    THERE! Now fear me, foolish mortal. I mean, assistant moderator, sir.





    Have a daisy.
    Last edited by Askthepizzaguy; 08-20-2008 at 15:39.
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  6. #6

    Default Re: Why Turtle

    How much you can blitz certainly depends on the MOD you play (if any).
    Personally, it's a few simple house rules that stop me from blitzing that I use out of personal preference for a more immersive game experience. My main "rule" is to roleplay the faction leader's overall direction of his forces and management of the empire and I roleplay it as a nice guy on a mission to make his people succesfull.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Why Turtle

    The simple answer is that both turtling and blitzing are different game styles. Chalk and cheese.

    I have never really played a turtle game, but have played long campaigns before with max rep/max chivalry objectives and had a lot of fun in doing so (ie: taking down the hordes with HRE infantry based armies after diplomaticly relocating the pope to Asia minor was fun)

    I can see why people turtle(or moderately expand) as it does have a more historical aspect to the game than the 'take 45 provinces + city x/y' of the vanilla long campaign. ie: you can micro-manage an empire for a few hundred years and nurture alliances, all good fun.

    However, uberschnelling blitzkrieg provides you with the greatest opponent known to man...TIME! Far more devastating than any AI*

    (* - I realise that by posting this, I may attract the attention of an AI-driven hegemonising swarm in a far off galaxy, who will subsequently abandon their galactic blitzing and proceed to Sol at 233 kilolights to teach the dumb apes a lesson; in which case it's all ATPG's fault )

    Also, for record speed blitzing it's not a simple matter of overwhelming the PLAI with outrageous stacks of unwashed peasants and militia, as this is a sign of using too many troops in too few places at once.

    The reality is you have to fight a lot of offensive battles with threadbare armies against tough odds, as opposed to the Turtle defending castles/cities/terrain against the AI with a well armoured and upgraded garrison of elite troops, and generally advance warning of enemy incursions via spies/watchtowers etc so giving time to train extra men and recruit mercs/reinforce areas before the AI siege stack trundles into view.

    So in all, two very different playstyles for different objectives.

  8. #8
    Scottish exile Member Proserpine's Avatar
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    Default Re: The closing arguments of Askthepizzaguy's defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy View Post
    4. Once my armies come in contact with the enemy, they are instantly destroyed. I am not sure how. Sometimes I black out and when I wake up, I am covered in blood and I have skulls all around me, and I'm always holding a plastic picnic spoon for some reason.

    . . .

    In closing, I'd just like to say how much I like kittens. The End.
    Har-de har-har Well ATPG you made me laugh, but also scared the bejasus out of me I hope I never meet you in multiplayer, your "Armoured Spearmen" would no doubt clean my clock toot-de-sweet.

    Here's a question though for you ATPG, have you used VanillaMod or do you only use Vanilla MTW2?
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  9. #9
    Know the dark side Member Askthepizzaguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Turtle

    I'm actually engaged in a Sicilian campaign where the goal is both to blitz effectively, and also to create fairly decent armies, all the while following the Total Independence house rules.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Total Independence rules:

    1. Objective is to make the rebels win the game, and obliterate all other factions.

    2. You can only have soldiers in 10 settlements at any given time. (your core 10 provinces)

    3. You cannot recruit priests or imams, or build religious buildings of any kind.

    4. You cannot execute prisoners, sack, or exterminate.

    5. You may not crusade or jihad.

    6. You can change which 10 provinces you wish to hold at any given time, but never have soldiers in more than 10 provinces.

    7. You must defeat the Mongols, Timurids, and Aztecs. This is a long campaign.

    8. See Ramses II CP's signature line for the End of Tyranny campaign, this is similar.

    9. I will be blitzing as hard as I can, but I will be severely hampered by the house rules. Good luck to me!

    And no, I don't use vanillamod. I should give it a try.
    #Winstontoostrong
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  10. #10
    Scottish exile Member Proserpine's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Turtle

    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy View Post
    I'm actually engaged in a Sicilian campaign where the goal is both to blitz effectively, and also to create fairly decent armies, all the while following the Total Independence house rules.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Total Independence rules:

    1. Objective is to make the rebels win the game, and obliterate all other factions.

    2. You can only have soldiers in 10 settlements at any given time. (your core 10 provinces)

    3. You cannot recruit priests or imams, or build religious buildings of any kind.

    4. You cannot execute prisoners, sack, or exterminate.

    5. You may not crusade or jihad.

    6. You can change which 10 provinces you wish to hold at any given time, but never have soldiers in more than 10 provinces.

    7. You must defeat the Mongols, Timurids, and Aztecs. This is a long campaign.

    8. See Ramses II CP's signature line for the End of Tyranny campaign, this is similar.

    9. I will be blitzing as hard as I can, but I will be severely hampered by the house rules. Good luck to me!

    And no, I don't use vanillamod. I should give it a try.
    Already I'm looking forward to your AAR on that one. Good luck!
    O wad god the giftie gie us
    To see oorselves as ithers see us - Robert Burns

    I'll let you be in my dream if I can be in yours - Bob Dylan

  11. #11
    Member Member Ferret's Avatar
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    Default Re: The closing arguments of Askthepizzaguy's defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy View Post
    It's 8-0, and thats not even counting those who abandoned their campaigns. Those should count as losses as well.

    If so, that would be another loss for Ichigo, Monk, and losses for Ignoramus, Elite Ferret, and some others as well.

    More like 12-0, plus a draw because I couldn't get the epic pizzaguy versus Grog (blitzmaster v blitzmaster) duel to the death working, and maybe another draw because Chaotix didn't drop on me, my computer died, and now I cant get any save files to work that werent generated by my own computer for some odd reason.
    What so when the other person can no longer play you win but if you can no longer play it's a draw? That sounds fair...

    I'm guessing you knew you couldn't beat Grog and so pretended the save broke and then thought you would lose the rest and the hotseats and so claimed that BC doesn't work on your new computer. I've got you sussed out...

    Besides I am willing to continue our duel now that I have more time, but you haven't been able to play for months now.

  12. #12
    Know the dark side Member Askthepizzaguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: The closing arguments of Askthepizzaguy's defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elite Ferret View Post
    What so when the other person can no longer play you win but if you can no longer play it's a draw? That sounds fair...

    I'm guessing you knew you couldn't beat Grog and so pretended the save broke and then thought you would lose the rest and the hotseats and so claimed that BC doesn't work on your new computer. I've got you sussed out...

    Besides I am willing to continue our duel now that I have more time, but you haven't been able to play for months now.

    I thought you were simply unwilling to play?

    You didn't mention any reason. Just put it off.

    And yes, none of my hotseats work, and I havent been able to get duels to work either. And since the rest of y'all never conceded defeat, I couldn't add those to my total. not that it matters anyway, since I don't really get anything for winning.

    I'd be delighted to duel again, if I could figure out how. I'm guessing I'd have to start a new save file using my current version and settings. My own save files should be compatible, I can't imagine why they wouldn't be. I can't imagine why I can't play the old saves either, but I'm no computer expert.

    Apologies however, if I worded it in such a way to suggest the rest of you conceded if you didn't, but I haven't gotten the save from you in months, so I just assumed you didn't want to play anymore.



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  13. #13
    Member Member Ferret's Avatar
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    Default Re: The closing arguments of Askthepizzaguy's defense.

    I'm just lazy

  14. #14
    Senior Member Senior Member Quintus.JC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Turtle

    Waiting for the two important events; Discovery of Gunpowder and that world is round (Copernicus thingy)

  15. #15

    Default Re: Why Turtle

    Turtling and Blitzing are related to personality types. Some people eat fast while others take an hour to eat a hot dog. Some micromanage every aspect of the game whilst others automanage everything. Some go to DisneyWorld or on cruises whereas the sane go skiing and backpacking or kayaking or bowling.

  16. #16
    Merciless Mauler Member TheLastPrivate's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Turtle

    I personally enjoy both, altho naturally a turtle I've had great fun adopting ATPG's guides to my playstyle.

    It's about what YOU enjoy, nothing more.

    Given the EZmode of the singleplayer game even on VH/VH, argueing over which is "superior" or "efficient" is hardly worth the debate.

    It's like debating on why you shoul eat a pizza with your hands or forks. Maybe we should ask ATPG


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