The Eugenic Annihilation of Children with Down's Syndrome

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

and it´s not for me to say who should be getting pregnant or not...

No, but it's for someone to say. If you're going to have an abortion for any other reason than that baby is going to cause serious bodily harm, don't get pregnant. If the woman is raped, then I suppose I can understand. Otherwise, don't get pregnant if you don't want to have the kid.

[Devastatin Dave]

Since a young fetus is total dependent on its mother it is not an individual.

Isn't that the case for infants outside the womb as well?

[lars573]

A simple question for you then Lars .
These "some" that you refer to , at what stage of the pregnancy is it possible to accurately determine the full effects of any defects or disorders that may have been detected ?

Unfortunately accept for the DS guy in wheelchair who had to put on the toilet by his EPA, and the autisitc guy. I never had a laundry list of disorders, so I can't answer that.

So? There are people to take care of them. They can live, so let them live. Abortion for the sake of eugenics, especially, is a long and dirty path.

Always seems like waste to me. And yes eugenic abortions does lead to a not so great place. But we need to go there.

[Viking]

How dare you be so reasonable! For all the talk of Christian's and indeed any pro-lifers having only an idiological basis in their belief, it appears this is the case with just as many pro-choice supporters.

If someone does not see an unborn baby as a human being, then I will strongly disagree with them but I can understand their views.

But I cannot understand the whole "baby infringing on the mother's rights" line. So legal technicalities regarding human rights must overcome any sort of sense or compromise? In the end, the mother has to be pregnant for nine months. And for that, the baby (which didn't ask to be inside her in the first place) can live a happy, full life. I'm pretty sure it would prefer living in a foster home to dying before ever seeing the light of day.

I've seen a few people with Down's Syndrome, including one I used to see at the place I work a bit. I can't honestly say I know how much it affects people on average and the extent of variation between cases, but it seems to me that they are nonetheless pretty glad to be alive, and contribute a lot more to society that many more 'healthy' people do.

Nowhere does it state that being a biological 'parasite' on another human being is a right.

If you're going to have an abortion for any other reason than that baby is going to cause serious bodily harm, don't get pregnant.

Yes, they should be able to get an abortion whenever they like to.

Always seems like waste to me. And yes eugenic abortions does lead to a not so great place. But we need to go there.

Humanity does not need to go anywhere.

[Papewaio]

I think the eugenics argument should be dropped. Don't just look at what eugenic means (selectively breeding a better race ) look at what the end result is... a change in the frequency of the individuals... evolution by man not the environment.

Either choice abort or not will lead to a difference in the frequency of the individuals. Both choices are eugenic in the more general sense that we are choosing the gene frequency.

Let people choose. End of the day it is their genes they remove from the gene pool.

[Tribesman]

Unfortunately accept for the DS guy in wheelchair who had to put on the toilet by his EPA, and the autisitc guy. I never had a laundry list of disorders, so I can't answer that.

You can't answer that ?????
Yet you said that people should have been aborted based on what you had seen of them and in the same post said that you had read up on the disorder.....but you can't answer .
It was a simple question Lars , very simple .

But OK lets make it easier for you , or harder as the case may be when it comes to trying to defend your stated view .
If you saw someone that was paraplegic or tetraplegic and they had to be put onto the toilet should they have been aborted ?

[Ronin]

No, but it's for someone to say. If you're going to have an abortion for any other reason than that baby is going to cause serious bodily harm, don't get pregnant. If the woman is raped, then I suppose I can understand. Otherwise, don't get pregnant if you don't want to have the kid.

As to the bold part -> I don´t see why that should be.

I am not saying that I think abortion is a good idea, and I will agree that in some cases it can be done for base, selfish reasons.....I simply do not agree that we can push those views on someone and force a woman to go through a pregnancy if she doesn´t want to.

Isn't that the case for infants outside the womb as well?

It´s not the same thing.....yes once an infant is out of the womb it needs someone to cloth and feed him/her...but this is very different from the situation in the womb where the fetus life is biologically linked to it´s mother, basically the fetus is only alive because the mother is providing life support, it can´t breath by itself, it can´t digest food by itself, etc.

If the woman does not want to function as life support for this fetus it´s in her right to decide so, I´m not saying that this is a good decision or a bad one.....just that it´s her decision.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

As to the bold part -> I don´t see why that should be.

I am not saying that I think abortion is a good idea, and I will agree that in some cases it can be done for base, selfish reasons.....I simply do not agree that we can push those views on someone and force a woman to go through a pregnancy if she doesn´t want to.

If she doesn't want to, she shouldn't get pregnant. If it was a rape, then that's another matter entirely, but I do not believe that anyone has the right to terminate a life of an innocent member of the human species before it has even had a chance. In this case, the right to live trumps the right of convenience. If you still don't want the baby after all of this time, give it up for adoption. But pregnancy doesn't spontaneously occur - if you've had sex, you've accepted the risk.

[Idaho]

Huh... somehow I'm on the same page too... Idaho by god you could unite the world.

Oh yes... and by then it'll be too late! Mwahahahahahahahahaopps... did I say that out loud?

[yesdachi]

The “don’t want a baby, don’t get pregnant” stance is a lame one EMFM. It’s like saying if you don’t want to get in a car accident then don’t drive a car. Accidents happen.

You don’t like abortions; I get it, but don’t back it up with that piece of straw.

[Idaho]

Isn't that the case for infants outside the womb as well?

Quite so. I am fully in favour of abortion being available. But don't create bs justifications for it. If you make a tough decision - have the balls to make it honestly. I/We killed a unborn child because for whatever reason I/we couldn't/didn't want to keep it.

[Tribesman]

If it was a rape, then that's another matter entirely

Is it ?
What is rape Mars ?
Does it cover underage sex like statuatory rape ?
Does it cover non consensual sex where the woman was in a state where legaly any consideration of consent is null and void ?

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

The “don’t want a baby, don’t get pregnant” stance is a lame one EMFM. It’s like saying if you don’t want to get in a car accident then don’t drive a car. Accidents happen.

You don’t like abortions; I get it, but don’t back it up with that piece of straw.

Um, Car accidents happens, sometimes there nothing you can do about it. But Sex, usally there is. Don't Have Sex Dachi. If you a man, which a lot of us here are, I don't think we need to worry about being raped by a women .


Just don't have Sex. Just Keep it in your Pants, or if you a women, cut the thing off if he trys to stick it in, plan and simple.

[Ronin]

If you a man, which a lot of us here are, I don't think we need to worry about being raped by a women .

uhm....completely disparate from the discussion at hand...but I would say this is unlikely maybe but not impossible.

[Husar]

Abortion is an ugly topic, I'm generally not in favour of it, especially not when it's just for the convenience of some spoiled western brat but I can see how it might make sense now and then.
You know when I point a gun at a friend and pull the trigger just for fun and I happen to hit and kill her that's an accident as well.
The point of sex is to get kids(basically, I know it's also fun but biologically speaking that's not the whole point of it) so if you actually become pregnant from sex I wouldn't call that an accident, the point of cars however, is not to crash them into one another...

[Idaho]

Abortion is an ugly topic, I'm generally not in favour of it,

I don't think anyone is in favour of abortion. Never come across someone handing out leaflets encouraging people to abort pregnancies.

You know when I point a gun at a friend and pull the trigger just for fun and I happen to hit and kill her that's an accident as well.
The point of sex is to get kids(basically, I know it's also fun but biologically speaking that's not the whole point of it) so if you actually become pregnant from sex I wouldn't call that an accident, the point of cars however, is not to crash them into one another...

A simplistic and mixed up bunch of metaphors that isn't really moving the debate in any particular direction

[Devastatin Dave]

Idaho... abortion moderator.

[yesdachi]

Um, Car accidents happens, sometimes there nothing you can do about it. But Sex, usally there is. Don't Have Sex Dachi. If you a man, which a lot of us here are, I don't think we need to worry about being raped by a women .


Just don't have Sex. Just Keep it in your Pants, or if you a women, cut the thing off if he trys to stick it in, plan and simple.

No sex is not an option. I have a husbandly duty to fulfill.

If I had to go the rest of my days without sex just because I don’t want anymore kids I would seriously consider euthanizing myself.

[ICantSpellDawg]

I'm happy with the way that this discussion is going. People are beginning to view abortion as homicide - the killing of a human being - more often than they would in the past. More disturbingly, many of those same people are advocating that the specific type of homicide as just and acceptable.

case in point - the article that I've posted by Camille Paglia says this:

Hence I have always frankly admitted that abortion is murder, the extermination of the powerless by the powerful. Liberals for the most part have shrunk from facing the ethical consequences of their embrace of abortion, which results in the annihilation of concrete individuals and not just clumps of insensate tissue. The state in my view has no authority whatever to intervene in the biological processes of any woman's body, which nature has implanted there before birth and hence before that woman's entrance into society and citizenship.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/paglia/...in/index2.html

I believe that this is part of a more reasonable argument for people who defend abortion to have. She is using murder interchangeably with homicide, which is legally wrong to do, but I get the point. This is the discussion that I believe we can win as pro-lifers even though it is enticing to those who are more callous to the question of life. I see the abortion issue as very similar to the issue of slavery and there was a right side in that argument, even though the issue was heavily split. There were tough and convincing arguments in favor of slavery and against the governments intrusion into the rights of legally recognized people to own slaves, beings with few if any recognized rights.

Anyway, we need to have this discussion until people get it that abortion is homicide. To not understand this is akin to not understanding that a person dies when the state uses the death penalty. How absurd would it be if people started to argue that criminals are no longer human because of location and circumstance, therefore their termination was just that, not in fact state sanctioned homicide. We can continue arguing about whether it is ethical (as we do with the death penalty), but we need to understand when a human life is being taken and view the situation clearly.

No sex is not an option. I have a husbandly duty to fulfill.

If I had to go the rest of my days without sex just because I don’t want anymore kids I would seriously consider euthanizing myself.

Sex is alright, but wildly overrated to me. Sometimes I would welcome never thinking about it again and focusing on more interesting things, like video games and global affairs.

[Ronin]

Sex is alright, but wildly overrated to me. Sometimes I would welcome never thinking about it again and focusing on more interesting things, like video games and global affairs.

if you think sex is just 'alright' I would suggest the idea that you might be doing it wrong

[ICantSpellDawg]

if you think sex is just 'alright' I would suggest the idea that you might be doing it wrong

Bah - it's a waste of time. Wildly overrated. It's fun occasionally, but lately I just do it to stay close to my girlfriend. I have a schedule - no less than once a week, otherwise I feel distant. Even "late night with laura palmer" has been a waste of time lately. I immediately regret spending the time afterward.

Maybe it is because I'm sick and on tons of medications, but either way I would rather play video games or read geopolitical articles. Case in point- It isn't that bad to never want to do it again, just a bit frustrating because you will feel like something is wrong or that your relationship is in jeopardy. If everybody felt this way the world would be 10 times better.

[PBI]

Since this is the same old abortion topic making the rounds again (albeit in disguise) I will simply restate my same old views.

It is my view that the pro-lifers have only themselves to blame for the bizarre state of abortion law in America. Their unwillingness to compromise on their perverse insistence that a week-old embryo is somehow morally equivalent to a newborn infant is the only reason I can perceive for why the US has not arrived at a sensible compromise similar to what we have in Europe.

The question of abortion is to me a matter of balancing the rights of the mother against those of the unborn foetus. A one-week old embryo is not a human and does not have rights, any more so than an individual sperm or egg cell. A newborn infant clearly is a human complete with all the rights that brings. At some point we have to draw a dividing line; I personally feel the current limit of 24 weeks is about right although I have heard some convincing arguments that this might be slightly too high. But quibbling about exactly where to draw the line does not for me undermine the underlying principles:

• That the mother does have a right to decide what happens to her own body (all too often this seems to be denied completely).
• That at some point that right is superseded by the right to life of the unborn child.

My view is that before the cut off, the woman should be entitled to an abortion for whatever reason she wants, including if the child is found to be carrying a birth defect. After the cutoff abortion should only be legal in cases where the mother's life is in jeopardy. I realise that like all compromises and arbitrary divides, it is not a very satisfactory solution. However, I simply cannot accept the position that taking the life of a 1-week old foetus is murder, nor the position that taking the life of a baby close to term is not, and as such I cannot think of nor have I heard of a better answer.


Incidentally, yesdachi made an interesting point that I have yet to see adequately answered:

If someone feels so passionately about “life” then they should encourage people struggling with the decision by supporting them and offering to be there for them. It is too easy to arm-chair quarterback the decision while not taking any responsibility for the decision you have forced someone to make.

If YOU want someone to have their defect baby then YOU should offer to be there to help them raise that baby, if YOU are not going to be there then YOU don’t have any say in the decision.

If you are going to force a decision on someone it seems only fair to accept responsibility for that decision. Would people be so keen to outlaw abortion if the corollary to such a ban was a huge tax increase to make cash handouts to teenage mothers, or to pay carers to help those parents struggling to raise a child with Down's syndrome?

[Rhyfelwyr]

It is my view that the pro-lifers have only themselves to blame for the bizarre state of abortion law in America. Their unwillingness to compromise on their perverse insistence that a week-old embryo is somehow morally equivalent to a newborn infant is the only reason I can perceive for why the US has not arrived at a sensible compromise similar to what we have in Europe.

So killing a 5 year old isn't that bad then? After all, they won't be able to surive very well by themselves. They can't contribute to society like an adult would, they aren't really very useful at all. So why shouldn't parents be able to kill them if they get fed up with them?

How did you come up with the calculation that an unborn baby is not the moral equivallent to a born baby?

[PBI]

Sorry, I should clarify.

It is not the birth that is important, it is the physical differences between a newborn (or an unborn child close to term) and a newly fertilised embryo.

I apologise for my confusing choice of phrasing.

[Ironside]

It's not fixing it is eleminating. And if a child is born terminalliy ill it should be possible to skip the hard parts like we do here but that is something different, this isn't about pro-life it's about what deserves a chance, when we judge it by our standards it's projection and that is simply not fair.

Yes, it's elimination, but of what? Induviduals? Yes... and no.
Genes? Yes... but that's evolution in a nutshell and by the time we can change the genes on this level, we're already creating new evolutionary conditions.

Anyway, we need to have this discussion until people get it that abortion is homicide.

That's easy, homocide is the killing of an induvidual. Of course, then the following question is; What's an induvidual?
Ok, ok, legally it's the killing of a body, but that's also bizzare in the grey zones

I'm still waiting for an answer for the questions BTW...
But if you really can't answer it, then you can wait until we're old and gray and it's reality and not some forum speculation. But on the other hand you won't have thought through your own opinion on abortion until you atleast tried to answer them.

[yesdachi]

...abortion is homicide...

I think there are plenty of justifiable homicides that should be as legal as abortion.

Sex is alright, but wildly overrated to me. Sometimes I would welcome never thinking about it again and focusing on more interesting things, like video games and global affairs.

Different strokes for different folks.

[Fragony]

Yes, it's elimination, but of what? Induviduals? Yes... and no.
Genes? Yes... but that's evolution in a nutshell and by the time we can change the genes on this level, we're already creating new evolutionary conditions.

We can afford to have a little inconsistancy here and there, we got so many, why not make an exception here and there just to not be able to kill someone for having down-syndrome. This isnt like normal abortion for whatever reason, the people that do this have already decided they want a child, it's disgusting.

[rvg]

Never had a problem with people aborting foetii with down's syndrome. The condition is irreversible and incurable. The diagnosis is absolute (extra chromosome is something you just don't miss). Then again, I'm pro-choice in general.

[Tribesman]

The diagnosis is absolute (extra chromosome is something you just don't miss).

Bollox
The detection and diagnosis is not absolute .

However since Lars is unable (or unwilling) to answer the question I put I may has well say that the level to which the presense of the disorder will affect the individual is not determinable until after the birth , often several years afer the birth .

[Fragony]

Never had a problem with people aborting foetii with down's syndrome. The condition is irreversible and incurable.

Funny, that is how I think about the muslims in europe.