Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition

[vartan]

Only foot battles are the best. Why? Well you actually have a chance of losing.

Unless you both have cav and you have the cav disadvantage.

[Moros]

Cool. Finally a realistic saba. :)
EBII looks sooo promising to deliver a game as close as reality as it can get for a game.
On the other hand I cant imagine fighting only foot battles with the germanics. gauls or sabeans most of the game. ^^

Th germanics and especially the gauls have acces to quite a few cavalry units. Of course the focus for both will be foot soldiers, just as Rome and most western civilizations. The Sabaeans will have to rely on mercenaries and regionals for cavalry though.

[athanaric]

I don't really understand why they are considered crappy. They are perhaps no match one on one for hellenistic heavy infantry, but one should expect that. They only wear leather padded jackets and a helmet so one can't expect them to go toe to toe with much more armoured troops. They however give you the ability to last longer against other units than you're lighter ones, so that you have more time and an easier time trying to use your superior tactics to win a battle. As with the Sabaeans it'll be your tactics that should get you to victory, not superior forces. It's the bodyguard unit you need to use to secure your gaps with or to use as an attacking force on the enemies weak spots. That's probably the problem with Saba', that they don't have much attacking/flanking/... units except for their bodyguards. In EB II however there'll be one such unit as there was a historically attested unit that played this role.

Actually, the Noble Infantry are probably my favourite Sabaean unit, and they are not crappy at all. Perhaps the only noble footsoldier unit that can chase down other infantry. All in all, they're quite similar to the Germanic Pikemen, with a weaker attack but higher versatility.

[gamegeek2]

AtB also promises to make Saba more realistic, and more competitive as well. The Nabatu will probably be the more capable faction unit-wise, in the end, but the Sabaeans look to have some good ones as well.

[athanaric]

Iabarannta
Surprisingly nasty. The AI always deploys them in loose formation, making them cover the whole map, and cheerfully exploits all skirmisher related bugs of the RTW engine - the cavalry charge bug, the loose formation killer combat bug, the melee fire bug (actually an oversight), to name but a few. And unlike the default Lusotannan skirmishers (Iovamann), these guys are actually fierce in melee. Meaning the best counter is a disproportionate number of Kretan Archers, who should be focusing on other tasks. Almost identical and just as effective: Gaesamica.


Milites Ilergetum
Very useful for factions campaigning in Iberia, especially the Romans. A reliable unit with medium armour, lethal long swords, and soliferra. What more could you ask for?

[FlyingPig]

Hoplitai Haploi (sorry I'm new I don't know how to do pictures!)
Definitely the core to most armies for several reasons:

1. Upkeep - 200 per turn is an absolute bargain especially in the early game.

2. Arrow/Slinger Fodder - whilst their defence isnt amazing it is better than most other cheap melee units (lugoae, Caucasian spearman etc.) which makes them great at absorbing/wasting opponents arrows.

3. Recruitability - Hoplitai Haploi can be recruited in so many regions within the first level of barracks it is easy to replenish their numbers in the city you have just taken with them

[seienchin]

Dont forget, that they can hold any line.
Hoplitai Haploi or the parthian spearmen plus some light cavallery and the human player can beat nearly any AI Enemy. They are incredible.

[Captain Trek]

People in this thread have been complaining about elite units such as Spartans losing men to shitty units such as Akontistai, but I, for one, merely accept this as being the way the game (and real life) is...

I mean, shit, I once had a 36-man unit of single gold-chevron Mak bodyguards with Teir 1 armour and weapon upgrades lose about a third of their number to two untis of triple bronze chevron and Teir 1 armour upgrade KH FREED SLAVES! You see, I charged onto the slaves (which were defending a town square), then thought it'd be a good idea to have the bodyguards switch to their swords, at which point they proceeded to lose a ridiculous number of men. It just so happened that the game CTDed after that battle, so I had to fight it again... Once again, I found myself in a position where I could attack the two freed slave units with my general and did so, only this time I left them using their lances, just to see what would happen... This time, they blew through both units losing only one or two men...

The point? Elite units lose men to crappy units all the time in EB and if you can't learn to live with it, maybe EB (and TW games in general) are not for you... Indeed, I for one would be pleased as punch to have a unit of Spartans blow through Akonkistai losing only one guy, as I've lost far too many elite men to skirmishers (mostly Peltasti, which is more understandable, but also Akons as well) in my time playing EB (and TW games in general)...

For me, though, I agree that Hoplitai Hapoli are definitely a surpisingly good unit, but for me personally the untis that have impressed me the most have been Rorari, Hippies Thessalikoi and any and every low tier slinger unit.

For the slingers, I've found that Sphendonetai, Laosatae and Accensi all seem to do remarkably well on the battlefield, well able to rack up just as many if not more kills than even elite archers such as the Kretikoi and that their tendency to hit friendlies in the back has been a minor problem at best...

Then there are the Rorari... Call me crazy, but I love those little bastards... They make for a relatively cheap but none-the-less combat effective garrisons (perfect for brigands), are absolute masters at bogging down enemy cavalry and make wonderfully good flankers... Indeed, units similar to the Rorari, such as Thureophoroi, have impressed me overall, but it's definitely the Rorari that stand out...

Finally, I know the Thessalikoi might seem like an odd choice for a "surpisingly good" unit, given that they are elite cavalry and thus are expected to be good, but over the course of my Makedonia campaign, I've generally had a hard time finding effective "hammer" unit for hammer-and-anvil warfare... Most cavalry, I've found, just don't seem to have sufficient "punch" when on the charge, I was having a hard time teching up to the Hetairoi and I had specifically made a point of not stacking the army with FMs, because that's just not something I do... But then I was able hire a couple of units of merc Thessalikoi and ho...lee...shit...! Seriously, these guys are complete and utter monsters! In their first engagement, I charged the two units into the back of a Spartan bodyguard (upwards of 70 men IIRC, with the Thessos being 50 men each) that was being held in place by a unit of Phalangitai Deuteroi (which were, naturally, going to end up on the losing end fairly shortly if they didn't get some help) and I was absolutely aghast when not only was about about a third to a half of the bodyguard instantly slain upon impact, but an instant later the Spartans routed and were cut down by the Thessos! Since then, the Thessos (along with my general, of course, but prior to purchasing the Thessos his effectiveness had been somewhat limited by his small unit size) have reigned supreme on open battlefields, smashing enemy units against my phalanxes (frequently causing them to insta-rout just as those spartans did) and also being surprisingly effective anti-general units (particularly when the general has charged onto my phalanxes and they are able to quickly ride around and encircle him)... I've quickly grown to love them and certainly do personally consider them to be "surprisingly effective" simply because I honestly didn't expect them to be as utterly monstrous as they've turned out to be... :)

[Olaf The Great]

A suprisingly bad unit(in my experience) is the Massilian hoplites, they just get torn to shreds.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

A suprisingly bad unit(in my experience) is the Massilian hoplites, they just get torn to shreds.

Seconded.

[TancredTheNorman]

This of course depends entirely on what your campaign is.

For the non Phalangite factions a bad unit at the end of the campaign is anything, all that will be faced is phalanx spam with a little bit of (family member) cavalry and the occassional archer/skirmisher/slinger, so all that is required is something to attack a Phalanx from the back while it is killing it's designated target, and because anything could do that there are really no bad units, even the Phalanxes that could stand up to Suldoros and Post Marian Cohorts are going to lose about half their men from a chargeto the back while they are commiting a massacre.

Although for one bad unit I would say Ligurian Infantry, they could only be recruited in one place, are not superior to Gaeros, are expensive, and die as quickly as most other lower level spears.

[Cute Wolf]

now, look at this:


- non lethal weapon (crappy swords)
- die like flies (unlike their proper armenian or pontos counterparts with metal armour)
- expensive
- limited recruitment
- small numbers compared with their performance

[Valion]

Noobish Question! where do you guys get the Unit Pictures? :)

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

From this site: http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.net/

[Ludens]

From this site: http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.net/

Or from the official EB site.

[Lazy O]

Why do the Illergetes have the Qarthhadast symbol 0.o?

[NoHelmet]

and their kind (kleruchoi agema, chaeonian agema). Why even using them when for half of the price pezhetairoi do the same job?
edit: typos

[Olaf The Great]

The only time when an elite phalanx really makes a difference is when your opponent has a phalanx army too, otherwise you can defeat the whole world with levy phalanxes, or if you're Carthage and only have access to an elite phalanx.

[NoHelmet]

Yes, but even then, it is not the phalanx that will kill the opposing one, it just the anchor. And for that, hell, i used Deuteroi to hold Argyraspides, while someone else comes from behind and does the job. Killing, that is. Therefore, my conclusion: When it comes to price&upkeep / effectiveness ratio, ultimate "bad" unit: Elite phalanxes, or any ultra-expensive line holders. Keep the line cheap, make flanks expensive and elite, like thraikioi rhomphaiophoroi, or elite liby-phoenicians. And for the good, well... Any horse archer with an AP charge is worth the money, but you gotta love these:

[seienchin]

Elite phalangitai can withstand cataphract atacks, are good on walls and can be used without phalanx mode and still beat a marian cohort!
They are great multitaskers and have more men than normal units!

[NoHelmet]

Upkeep of 1000mnai? I don't really consider that cost-effective. For that upkeep, i would rather use 3 units of pantodapoi phalangitai, with AP secondary attack. By the way, why even use them outside phalanx mode on open field? And for siege, i would assault with some other type of infantry, not my elite phalanx, even though i rarely assault, i wait for their reinforcements or use multiple spies to open gates. All i wanted to say, when fielding a large army, i would use cheaper phalanx to provide for effective flankers and cavalry. For 2 squads of Elite phalanxes, you get 6 cheapos. Who, PROPERLY used, do the same job. Just my opinion...

[antisocialmunky]

They can potentially do the job better.

[Cute Wolf]

elite phalangitai are priced because their flexibility, and their numbers per unit, who could be a big deal in a fullstack when you have grown yourself into gigantic empire, they are perfect troops for boosting autoresove.

[athanaric]

Why do the Illergetes have the Qarthhadast symbol 0.o?

Because only this version was uploaded. There are also variants for the Romani, Lusotannan, and both Gallic factions, each with appropriate shield and colouring.
I've created a "picture" with all of them for comparison. I can upload this in two weeks or so.


Lusotannan version:

[Ca Putt]

elite phalanxes CAN be quite usefull when fighting scary stuff as no matter how many panda phalanxes you have they have quite low moral which can be the end of every line. personally I don't think Elite phalanxes are cost efficient aswell but what the heck, times come when you have to decide what units to put into your royal fullstack and money is only causing your FMs to become "wealthy" themselves. also remember that the player can only control 20 units whereas the AI could theoretically control 7? armies without behaving like friendly AI reinforcements(the AI isn't smart to start with but these guys were better seved if they were controlled by a calculator) and if my slots are limited I probably would prefer Elite phalanxes over AI reinforcement pandas.

they are a bit like spartans - just twice as much.

personally I prefer having cheap line holders and expensive flankers for the same price, or some Lancing HAs but elite phalanxes do hae some things that speak for them

[NoHelmet]

When i said reinforcements, i meant enemy reinforcements, because then you get the entire army out of the city without having to free-climb the walls... And yes, Elites do have their qualities, but i'm a blitzer, so when i get the Mics for them, i'm far from my homelands and too lazy to drag them to te frontlines. And another classic goodie:



Low range, true, but superb secondary weapon, 8/AP/leth. 0.26

[Olaf The Great]

The one thing I don't understand is that the Indian Bowmen are advertised as HA killers, and their range doesn't permit that...but yes, they're a very solid unit regardless, and are absolute killers on walls.

Another suprisingly good unit, the Luso and Celtiberian skirmishers(not Iovamann), but the Ligurian spearmen.

Suprisingly bad, is the Rhaetic axemen.

[NoHelmet]

Suprisingly bad, is the Rhaetic axemen.

On the contrary, i find them to be good. AP primary and secondary, large unit, decent armor, shield... Why do you consider them bad?

[Olaf The Great]

I've had bad experiences wit h them, though admittedly it was against the romans-spamming-extraordinarii and I didn't really have a "hammer" on that battlefield, but I do remember them being chopped up mercilessly and barely killing anything

Plus they have a ridiculous shield.

[NoHelmet]

Well, they have high morale, shield is only slightly worse than roman (did you mean the look of the shield?), but don't expect them to frontaly hack infantry. I use them extensively, and have one silver chevron and one golden that fought all the way through italy, and now in greece in my Aedui campaign (happily destroying hoplites). All i say, they are not thraikioi rhomphaiophoroi, but do the job which they are supposed to do, and that is to grind the flanks. BTW, don't sacrifice expensive infantry to those god damn tanks extraordinarii, put some cheapos to the front, then go with, e.g., rhaetians from the flanks...