Christianity Offially on the UP in England and Wales

[Brenus]

“Yeah we stop people from violating babies' right to life, what will we do next...” In which category is the “we”?

“People dare accuse that atheism and secularism is aggressive when non-believers had to constantly put up with this nonsense for years”.
Yeap, because you have to be respectful of their belief… No others kind of belief deserves this impunity…
When I was in University, a teacher had to answer politely to a religious extremist interruption denying historical facts on the ground it was not in the Bible… And this was in University…
Secularism can be challenged but not Belief…

“I think he was poking the Hornet's Nest, and the reaction has been a scream after some of the things said in the Liberal press recently:”
Except of course that there were no Atheist Dictatorship as there are (were) Religious one.
Some dictators happened to be atheist (and even this is not proved) but they use to fight the political side of the Churches (thanks to R. Dawkins for the highlight). Or exploiting it in some cases (without the fundamental anti-Semitism spread by the 2 major monotheistic Religions, anti-Semitism wouldn’t exist.

“I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.” H. Hitler. My Kampf

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

“Yeah we stop people from violating babies' right to life, what will we do next...” In which category is the “we”?

“People dare accuse that atheism and secularism is aggressive when non-believers had to constantly put up with this nonsense for years”.
Yeap, because you have to be respectful of their belief… No others kind of belief deserves this impunity…
When I was in University, a teacher had to answer politely to a religious extremist interruption denying historical facts on the ground it was not in the Bible… And this was in University…
Secularism can be challenged but not Belief…

“I think he was poking the Hornet's Nest, and the reaction has been a scream after some of the things said in the Liberal press recently:”
Except of course that there were no Atheist Dictatorship as there are (were) Religious one.
Some dictators happened to be atheist (and even this is not proved) but they use to fight the political side of the Churches (thanks to R. Dawkins for the highlight). Or exploiting it in some cases (without the fundamental anti-Semitism spread by the 2 major monotheistic Religions, anti-Semitism wouldn’t exist.

“I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.” H. Hitler. My Kampf

Your double standard is extraordinary.

[Brenus]

Your double standard is extraordinary:
Explain... Because I see none.
There are Religious Dictatureships. No Atheist one.
Hitler nor Stalin built their on no-religion State. The Vatican is Religious basis State. Iran is a Religious Dictatorship. And I am not comparing them.

You are free to challenge any idea or myth, except the religious ones because "you have to respect Religions". Religions can openly criticise fashions, habits, food, behaviour and domains of human activities but oops if you do the same…you have to respect them.
Double standard, yes, but not on my side…

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Your double standard is extraordinary:
Explain... Because I see none.
There are Religious Dictatureships. No Atheist one.
Hitler nor Stalin built their on no-religion State. The Vatican is Religious basis State. Iran is a Religious Dictatorship. And I am not comparing them.

You are free to challenge any idea or myth, except the religious ones because "you have to respect Religions". Religions can openly criticise fashions, habits, food, behaviour and domains of human activities but oops if you do the same…you have to respect them.
Double standard, yes, but not on my side…

Hitler, Stalin and Mao deliberately rejected religious belief, especially the latter two. While the state was not "atheistic" it was anti-religious.

as to criticism, You, Loius, Beskar, et al. criticise it all the time and get away with it, but atheists screamed bloody murder when the Pope made the connection between sidelining beliefs contrary to the State and the totalitarian regimes of the 20th Century; this despite atheists being quite happy to call him a Nazi, child molester, hate monger....

don't dish it out if you can't take it.

[Shibumi]

If one man believe he is delusional. If several believe it is a religion.

I also strongly question the idea that religion "must be respected". I have read the bible, I have read the qur'an. Reading it, I mainly pended between laughter at the ludicrousness of the texts and shaking my head at the horrors described.

I know some people do take these texts seriously, but I struggle trying to understand them.

So no, religions at large should not be respected, not by any means. They should be the laughingstock of a enlighted society. Anyone trying to spread faith should be held up against the wall and questioned, be forced to defend his beliefs under the light of science and education.

Now that would be progress.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Atheism has become more militant in recent years.

My explanation is that until a decade or so ago, atheism felt confident about its growing influence. Historic tide was with atheism. As education spread, one day, the whole world would be enlightened and rise above private obscurantism.

However, in the last decade, religion has made a remarkable comeback outside of Western Europe.

Europe became aware of a restless Islam, both within and outside Europe's borders. Fundamentalist, irreconcilably hostile to liberal Western values.

In Eastern Europe, Catholicism and Orthodoxy filled the voids of communism. Massive new churches have been erected in Poland and Russia. Their politicians pictured with men with beards standing right behind them, their language filled with the imagery of fundamentalism. In Southeast Europe, for the first time in lord-knows-how-long-ago, the 1990's saw wars with a clear religious dimension.

America became ever more Christian fundamentalist. And through modern communication Europe simply became more aware of the very much thriving Christianity of America. The onslaught, indeed the very existence of, Intelligent Design shocked educated Europeans. What was considered an obscure, fundamentalist minority belief in Europe turned out to be pretty mainstream in America - a developed Western Society. So, 'it could happen here too...'

Atheism hadn't won at all. It was not 'the end of history', for neither liberal democracy nor a-religiousness. The 'enemies of reason' were alive and kicking...


European atheism was not long ago a secure, confident, self-explanatory. It was not even a movement. Few Europeans were atheist as part of their identity, simply because religion was so absent from their lives that one does not believe in a monotheistic god anymore than one does not believe in the force or in ancestral thought lines.

This changed. The perspective is now one of being under siege. Europe and East Asia stand alone in a world that has reverted to religious fundamentalism, to madness, to violence. The atheist feels he lives on a tiny island, in danger of being swept away.


Peculiarly, for the West European Christian, the perspective is the same. He too feels alone, insecure, in a majority environment hostile to him and his convictions.


There is a sadness to it all. Ten years ago, the European Christian was respected more than today. His religion considered a mostly innocent, perhaps backwards but nevertheless respectable opinion. Some atheists even felt a certain sadness that the Christianity of Europe was on the verge of dissapearing, felt it's last remnants needed active protection.

Nowadays, positions have harshened. European atheism militantly guards its position. Unfortunately, it does so - often by necessity - against people who themselves have very little direct ambition to overthrow it.

So, in orther words, slow growth or negligable decline probably indicates much larger growth which will only show in the numbers in another 5-10 years.

Sorry, I'm going back a few pages.
Most of the numbers are estimates, with a wide margin of error. So they could show either a small decline or a small increase.
I guess we can both agree that we can establish with some accuracy that the decline in church attendance of previous decades seems to have halted somewhere in the middle of the noughties. Future developments remain to be seen.

[Strike For The South]

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

If one man believe he is delusional. If several believe it is a religion.

I also strongly question the idea that religion "must be respected". I have read the bible, I have read the qur'an. Reading it, I mainly pended between laughter at the ludicrousness of the texts and shaking my head at the horrors described.

I know some people do take these texts seriously, but I struggle trying to understand them.

So no, religions at large should not be respected, not by any means. They should be the laughingstock of a enlighted society. Anyone trying to spread faith should be held up against the wall and questioned, be forced to defend his beliefs under the light of science and education.

Now that would be progress.

Truly, all of us should be enlightened by you.

Sorry, I'm going back a few pages.
Most of the numbers are estimates, with a wide margin of error. So they could show either a small decline or a small increase.
I guess we can both agree that we can establish with some accuracy that the decline in church attendance of previous decades seems to have halted somewhere in the middle of the noughties. Future developments remain to be seen.

This is a fair point, but the survey doesn't take account of the evangelical Denominations and independant Churches, who are thriving in England, so much so that any "losses" from the mainstream are no doubt made good there. This is not something about which I have unambiguous feelings.

To come back on your general points (I don't feel I need to quote them here) I mostly agree with you, except for two things.

1. It was never clear that the "tide of history" was with atheism, and certainly not with genuine rationality - because not all atheism is rational. What was clear was that the priests and Bishops had lost a large portion of their credability; they have only just started to gain some of it back.

2. Prior to the First World War Europe was as relgious as anywhere else, atheism was confined to the fashionable intellectual elite and Communists. It was, I submit, the horrendous social shock of two wars that fractured society and caused religion to enter decline. the two generations that experienced that shock, the War and Post-war generations, are now passing on and their children find atheism and pure "Reason" not to their liking.

They want something more, and hence the rise of religion in general, where Christianity has a head start and has been quietly shoring up it's defences while bleeding away.

So - religion in general is due a comeback, and this is no bad thing when one considers the brilliant artists, politicians and Scientists driven by religious faith to better mankind.

After all, people didn't turn out to see the Pope just because they were bored.

[naut]

their children find atheism and pure "Reason" not to their liking.

They want something more, and hence the rise of religion in general, where Christianity has a head start and has been quietly shoring up it's defences while bleeding away.

So - religion in general is due a comeback, and this is no bad thing when one considers the brilliant artists, politicians and Scientists driven by religious faith to better mankind.

????

Um. Not round these parts. Most people here in that age bracket are either atheist, agnostic or part of un-organised religion/spirituality.

[Louis VI the Fat]

people didn't turn out to see the Pope just because they were bored.

Well I can't speak for everybody, but as for me I went out to see the pope to get myself the official limited edition popemobile.

I've build in a radio-controlled engine, and drive it around my little cousins. When they don't run fast enough, the 'pope's gonna get them'. Scares the hell out of 'em.

[Brenus]

“While the state was not "atheistic" it was anti-religious.” It was anti-democratic, so against all movements that could fight against it. Nothing specifically against religions…

“atheists screamed bloody murder when the Pope made the connection between sidelining beliefs contrary to the State and the totalitarian regimes of the 20th Century; this despite atheists being quite happy to call him a Nazi, child molester, hate monger....”
Hate monger, well, to link atheism and totalitarian is what, exactly? Ok. The Pope artificially creates a link between atheism and Totalitarian Regimes and he shouldn't be challenged?
Nazi: The Catholic Church supported the Ante Pavlovic’s Ustase Regime in Croatia and even recently made Cardinal Stepinac, once supporter of this Regime, a Saint.
Which organisation helped the escape of Nazi to South America?
So here we don’t speak of something in the past, but anchored in the very present.
Nobody would call his a Nazi if he hadn’t rehabilitated Holocaust deniers, or as I mentioned above a pure Nazi supporter…
As protector of child molester, you just have to read the press…


I dished out; can you eat and digest it?

[Rhyfelwyr]

Atheism is a social movement, if it really was just a case of people 'seeing the light' and embracing 'reason', then it wouldn't be based largely in certain societies, at a certain period in time, and clearly based along class/occupational/generational etc lines.

As with any religion or social movement, a few atheist intellectuals lead the charge and the masses blindly follow...

[Louis VI the Fat]

The Pope artificially creates a link between atheism and Totalitarian Regimes and he shouldn't be challenged?

we don’t speak of something in the past, but anchored in the very present.
Nobody would call his a Nazi if he hadn’t rehabilitated Holocaust deniers, or as I mentioned above a pure Nazi supporter…

This pope beatified 300 Spanish fascists of the Spanish Civil War.

So apparantly, the depravity of nazism is the result of atheism, but its close cousin, Spanish fascism, is not.


The hypocricy would be breathtaking. Were it not, that the depravity of nazism to this pope is not a depravity as understood by liberal democracy. The depravity of nazism to Ratzinger is the 'a-religiousness' of it. Devout Catholic Spanish fascists are beatified, 'a-religious' German fascists are condemned.

The pope remains an enemy to the free society.

[gaelic cowboy]

Atheism has become more militant in recent years.

My explanation is that until a decade or so ago, atheism felt confident about its growing influence. Historic tide was with atheism. As education spread, one day, the whole world would be enlightened and rise above private obscurantism.

I have an even simpler explanation I bet a lot of people were Daylight Atehists or maybe more properly Lazyiests.

It is the nature of ever generation to reject the previous one maybe this is there idea of rebellion in a world where people can do what they like.


Ole Benny has hit the nail on the head with one thing for me the Evils of Relativism it has to stop I just hope it is atheists that stop it and not religon.

[Beskar]

Hitler, Stalin and Mao deliberately rejected religious belief, especially the latter two. While the state was not "atheistic" it was anti-religious.

Hilter was against atheism and spoke in favour of the catholic church and even Islam. He was a mythologist, believing all sorts of Esoterics and religious beliefs.

Stalin was Russian Orthodox and re-instituted the Orthodox church after Lenin got rid of it.

Neither of them are "atheists".

as to criticism, You, Loius, Beskar, et al. criticise it all the time and get away with it, but atheists screamed bloody murder when the Pope made the connection between sidelining beliefs contrary to the State and the totalitarian regimes of the 20th Century; this despite atheists being quite happy to call him a Nazi, child molester, hate monger....

don't dish it out if you can't take it.

, it is the Pope and his kind which are upset about it. If he deems that secularism is a threat and should be attacked, then it just proves and enforces anything I ever said. Religion in past and present want to enslave peoples minds to their indoctrination. Which funnily enough, since the religious lot first declared war on reason in the interests of their organized religions and means of control...

[a completely inoffensive name]

2. Prior to the First World War Europe was as relgious as anywhere else, atheism was confined to the fashionable intellectual elite and Communists. It was, I submit, the horrendous social shock of two wars that fractured society and caused religion to enter decline. the two generations that experienced that shock, the War and Post-war generations, are now passing on and their children find atheism and pure "Reason" not to their liking.

They want something more, and hence the rise of religion in general, where Christianity has a head start and has been quietly shoring up it's defences while bleeding away.

So - religion in general is due a comeback, and this is no bad thing when one considers the brilliant artists, politicians and Scientists driven by religious faith to better mankind.

After all, people didn't turn out to see the Pope just because they were bored.

The war and post war generations saw with their own eyes that total destruction can be brought upon them by other men and that in the late 1940s to the early 1950s Western and Central Europe had to basically rebuild their cities and society almost from the ground up. God may be all powerful, but now humanity can bring the apocalypse as well and praying won't be influencing them. When Western Europe rebuilt, there was no "heavenly intervention" coming to help them, they rebuilt with their own hands and made their own future again. So yeah, they saw first hand that God either isn't there or doesn't care.

Now you have generations that were brought up in the rebuilt countries with no idea of how much effort the generations before them put in to built it all back up and the history books were just too boring for most to care about. Now without any knowledge of where the world around them came from their ignorance naturally breeds more ignorance and they feel that there a higher purpose or deity looking down to give them their purpose. Everything is handed to them so they don't realize they need to make their own purpose and instead naturally gravitate towards religion which hands them their purpose.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The war and post war generations saw with their own eyes that total destruction can be brought upon them by other men and that in the late 1940s to the early 1950s Western and Central Europe had to basically rebuild their cities and society almost from the ground up. God may be all powerful, but now humanity can bring the apocalypse as well and praying won't be influencing them. When Western Europe rebuilt, there was no "heavenly intervention" coming to help them, they rebuilt with their own hands and made their own future again. So yeah, they saw first hand that God either isn't there or doesn't care.

It was never that bad.

Now you have generations that were brought up in the rebuilt countries with no idea of how much effort the generations before them put in to built it all back up and the history books were just too boring for most to care about. Now without any knowledge of where the world around them came from their ignorance naturally breeds more ignorance and they feel that there a higher purpose or deity looking down to give them their purpose. Everything is handed to them so they don't realize they need to make their own purpose and instead naturally gravitate towards religion which hands them their purpose.

This was hardly the first time this happened, by a long way - Medieval Europe was one long rebuilding from 400 AD to 1400 AD, yet it was all to the Glory of God.

So your analysis is obviously incomplete.

[Shibumi]

It was never that bad.



This was hardly the first time this happened, by a long way - Medieval Europe was one long rebuilding from 400 AD to 1400 AD, yet it was all to the Glory of God.

So your analysis is obviously incomplete.

Interesting how you manage to shrink a thousand years of history into half a sentence, and then claim someones else's analysis is incomplete.

Want to further your point a bit mate?

Truly, all of us should be enlightened by you

Thanks! I am glad You noticed this fast, sometimes I have to spend way more time before people reach this obvious conclussion.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Interesting how you manage to shrink a thousand years of history into half a sentence, and then claim someones else's analysis is incomplete.

Want to further your point a bit mate?

No, I want you to read some history.


[/quote]Thanks! I am glad You noticed this fast, sometimes I have to spend way more time before people reach this obvious conclussion.[/QUOTE]

Immune to irony as well, is there no end to your talents?

[HoreTore]

Immune to irony as well, is there no end to your talents?

Humour on the internetz = fail.

but being someone of supreme power, I of course got both jokes...

[Rhyfelwyr]

Swedish atheists are scary...

[Beskar]

I have to admit, I can't help thinking of the Warhammer 40k universe with some of the arguments used for or by religion. I think it was earlier some one already mentioned Slaanesh.

It is interesting seeing how religion is constructed there.

[Tellos Athenaios]

It was never that bad.

Not in the UK it wasn't. But I would submit that things like Hiroshima, Dresden, Berlin, Killing Fields, Vietnam etc. etc. did a lot to invalidate societal conventions and following a Faith is merely collateral damage.

[drone]

I have to admit, I can't help thinking of the Warhammer 40k universe with some of the arguments used for or by religion. I think it was earlier some one already mentioned Slaanesh.

Different thread.

Blessed is the mind too small for doubt.
Educate men without faith and you but make them clever devils.
To Question is to doubt.
An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.
All souls call out for salvation.
Purge the unclean. Burn the heretic. Kill the mutant.

[Shibumi]

Different thread.

Blessed is the mind too small for doubt.
Educate men without faith and you but make them clever devils.
To Question is to doubt.
An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.
All souls call out for salvation.
Purge the unclean. Burn the heretic. Kill the mutant.

Must have missed that part of the bible, seems more like some later preaching, surely anglo-saxon of origin [/jest].

Was it England or Ireland who just got their blasphemy laws back?

[Vladimir]

Must have missed that part of the bible, seems more like some later preaching, surely anglo-saxon of origin [/jest].

Was it England or Ireland who just got their blasphemy laws back?

Ireland. But I think it had something to do with worshiping the porcelain god after the Guinness anniversary celebration.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Not in the UK it wasn't. But I would submit that things like Hiroshima, Dresden, Berlin, Killing Fields, Vietnam etc. etc. did a lot to invalidate societal conventions and following a Faith is merely collateral damage.

Coventry was horrific, but Exeter was bombed just to break English pride (the Cathedral was one buttress from going down here).

Even so, the Continent did not exactly burn

Must have missed that part of the bible, seems more like some later preaching, surely anglo-saxon of origin [/jest].

Was it England or Ireland who just got their blasphemy laws back?

Those quotes are from Warhammar 40K, not Christianity.

So you lose theology and geek points.

[Shibumi]

Coventry was horrific, but Exeter was bombed just to break English pride (the Cathedral was one buttress from going down here).

Even so, the Continent did not exactly burn



Those quotes are from Warhammar 40K, not Christianity.

So you lose theology and geek points.

You REALLY are not an avid fan of sarcasm, are you?

GW is a English company, hence my reference to anglo-saxons... And you must have missed the [/jest] part.

So You, dear sir, lose sarcasm and geek points. O maj gawd, yaou laust da internetz!

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

You REALLY are not an avid fan of sarcasm, are you?

GW is a English company, hence my reference to anglo-saxons... And you must have missed the [/jest] part.

So You, dear sir, lose sarcasm and geek points. O maj gawd, yaou laust da internetz!

Why would I be a fan or Sarcasm? It's lazy.

[Louis VI the Fat]

A soul-searcher for all you evil atheists!


You have an 18 year old daughter. Pretty little thing, slightly naive, really just a little girl still. She went out for a drink, and takes the bus home, alone, at 2AM. She's had too much too drink, and keeps somewhat passing out. Other people will have to get her home. Whom would you rather wish shared this bus with her, was she dependent on:

A) four young Christian, Churchgoing men
B) four random blokes
C) a horde of Swedish atheists, led by ringleader Kadagar
D) Louis VI, Vladimir, HoreTore, Beskar, all four suddenly sporting identical Beatles clothes and hair, singing 'Twist and Shout', while obviously under the influence of ungodly amounts of alcohol.