The Palestine Papers

[aimlesswanderer]

I can't but think that when this whole mess is studied in future centuries, those studying it will just come away thinking that it was a complete botch up, all around.

The Israelis have huge military, economic and (fading) diplomatic advantages, due to a large part in the US's unstinting, largely unequivocal support. The Israelis have been taking advantage of that by basically absconding with Palestinian land from the occupied territories. Not surprisingly, the Palestinians have taken a very dim view of this. These settlements, along with their access roads, have cut, as shown by the map posted earlier, the West Bank into many small pieces. Added to this is what seems like a concerted campaign to move out Palestinians from East Jerusalem. Maybe we only hear about the Palestinians being evicted - "legally", but how come it just happens that the vast majority who get evicted are Palestinians, who have been living there for many decades? Seems like a logical parallel effort to settlement building.

Then there are the heavy restrictions on what they let in to Palestinian areas (as discussed in the Gaza blockade running thread), which have led to economic strangulation, with resulting serious poverty and unemployment - with corresponding despair for the future. The numerous "checkpoints" don't help either. This leads to more extreme, previously unpalatable ideas seeming like excellent ideas. Thanks to Israeli heavy handedness and above mentioned land grabs, Iran was able to build up Hamas and Hezbollah into large, powerful organisations with considerable public support, which are a general pain to the entire world.

And now that the Israelis rejected what Fatah/PLO may not even have been able to sell to its own people (abandoning just about ever major demand), it remains to be seen if the relatively moderate Fatah will be able to remain in power. They might well get replaced by a more radical group, or at least have to take a much harder line to remain in power.

And will that be good for either Israel or the world? Israel will get to say that the Palestinians are a bunch of crazies after the likely increase in violence, and meanwhile they'll grab more land, evict more people, and just make the whole situation worse. Hamas will only get stronger, and might even take over the West Bank, and won't that be just fun for all?

I don't even want to think about what might happen if, for example, Mubarak gets booted out of Egypt, and a group like the Muslim Brotherhood takes over...

All in all, a complete and utter mess.

[Hax]

Iran was able to build up Hamas

Make no mistakes, the Iranian regime doesn't really like Hamas. They're nothing more than the enemy of their enemy, but on philosophical and political terms they'd rather be enemies than friends. Hezbollah is another thing, seeing how they're Shi'ite.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Governments are highly efficient when it counts. They have the guns, the money, the law, the information gathering assets, and retain a monopoly on the use of force. They also have, when required - usually to maintain their own interest - a highly concentrated sense of purpose.

Self interest, especially to stay in power, is certainly something that can clarify government. I don't think that appertained, particularly at the outset.

You think it was done on a whim?

A whim, no. Too quickly and influenced by guilt and a sense of high-handedness, yes. The original UN effort sort of pre-supposed that the then-locals would be okay with the idea and/or that their opinion was pretty secondary. It also pre-supposed that, having been granted a homeland, the new Israelis would be perfectly content with what they'd been handed. I'd call that incoherent planning.

Of course, the whole re-drawing of the AH empire at Versailles had a lot of that thinking going on too. Israel's formation was another in a long series of just too-cavalier efforts.

[Beirut]

Self interest, especially to stay in power, is certainly something that can clarify government. I don't think that appertained, particularly at the outset.

I think it was relevant at the outset. The government, say the UK and the US governments for example, obviously saw it as being in their own best interest that Palestine be carved up or else they would not have assisted in it.

A whim, no. Too quickly and influenced by guilt and a sense of high-handedness, yes. The original UN effort sort of pre-supposed that the then-locals would be okay with the idea and/or that their opinion was pretty secondary. It also pre-supposed that, having been granted a homeland, the new Israelis would be perfectly content with what they'd been handed. I'd call that incoherent planning.

I don't think anyone anywhere was under the illusion that you allude to. Recent history in that area made it so clear as to be beyond any shadow of a doubt that there would be armed conflict. George Marshall told Truman that carving up Palestrine to make room for Isreal would ruin the US repuation in that region for generations. He was right.

Of course, the whole re-drawing of the AH empire at Versailles had a lot of that thinking going on too. Israel's formation was another in a long series of just too-cavalier efforts.

Yes, but unlike other "just too cavalier efforts", this one took an extra step into the land of the stupid by not only redrawing borders, but by importing an entire culture and people from another part of the world and plopping it right smack dab in the middle of a place that already had an indigeous population and that 100% guaranteed war would follow. It was not only criminal and stupid, but criminally stupid.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I don't think anyone anywhere was under the illusion that you allude to. Recent history in that area made it so clear as to be beyond any shadow of a doubt that there would be armed conflict. George Marshall told Truman that carving up Palestrine to make room for Isreal would ruin the US repuation in that region for generations. He was right.

Turns out to have been, yes. But then and now, most politicos have a much shorter decision horizon -- long term problems can be dumped on a successor. Please note, that is a comment on what I believe influenced decision-making at the time. Heeding Marshall's advice would have been smarter.

Yes, but unlike other "just too cavalier efforts", this one took an extra step into the land of the stupid by not only redrawing borders, but by importing an entire culture and people from another part of the world and plopping it right smack dab in the middle of a place that already had an indigeous population and that 100% guaranteed war would follow. It was not only criminal and stupid, but criminally stupid.

Turns out to have been a world champion dumb-bunny move, eh? We could parse nuances about criminality and international law, but I will set that aside. The decision at the time was ill-thought, ran counter to the "best route forward" assessments of many of the then-experts available, and was probably made to appease a sense of guilt as much as any rational reaction. Oh, and it basically handed the Zionist terrorists a win for their freedom fighter/terrorist efforts. Stupidity on parade.

[Beirut]

Interesting post.

[aimlesswanderer]

Make no mistakes, the Iranian regime doesn't really like Hamas. They're nothing more than the enemy of their enemy, but on philosophical and political terms they'd rather be enemies than friends. Hezbollah is another thing, seeing how they're Shi'ite.

They may not like them, but they still built them up to the stage where they are a real rival to the PLO.

Hezbollah are now possibly the most powerful political and military force in Lebanon. Lovely.

[Hax]

They may not like them, but they still built them up to the stage where they are a real rival to the PLO.

People often assume that Iran supports Hamas and the Iranian regime, too, have stated that they support Hamas, but it's a fickle alliance at best, and I don't think that it will last very long.

[Idaho]

They may not like them, but they still built them up to the stage where they are a real rival to the PLO.

Hezbollah are now possibly the most powerful political and military force in Lebanon. Lovely.

That's what you get for thinking that political maturity will come from external powers forcing their choices on a population.

[aimlesswanderer]

People often assume that Iran supports Hamas and the Iranian regime, too, have stated that they support Hamas, but it's a fickle alliance at best, and I don't think that it will last very long.

I think from Iran's POV, Hamas is great for causing Israel (and the Evil Imperialistic US, Decadent West, and rest of the world) problems galore. They are a useful proxy at the moment, but I have no doubt that if the strategic or political dynamic changes, they will be unceremoniously jettisoned.

[Fragony]

kthxbye, both the Palestinian and the Israeli authorities deny it's real, was a bit much no. People who have always condemned violence on both sides but never do naturally jumped on it like a pack of starved hyena's. Pallywood #quazillion. Ah well, at least the wardrums stopped and antise- Israel-critics are united in absolute silence again. At least until the next episode

[Husar]

kthxbye, both the Palestinian and the Israeli authorities deny it's real, was a bit much no. People who have always condemned violence on both sides but never do naturally jumped on it like a pack of starved hyena's. Pallywood #quazillion. Ah well, at least the wardrums stopped and antise- Israel-critics are united in absolute silence again. At least until the next episode

Huh? Some officials deny it's real and you immediately believe them?

[Fragony]

Huh? Some officials deny it's real and you immediately believe them?

It's pretty obvious that someone is discrediting Fatah. You'll see. Yeah I believe them the Palestinians would never use the Hebrew name of Jeruzalem.

[Crazed Rabbit]

A question for Beirut:
I recall from previous threads about Israel that you blame the Israelis and their dehumanizing treatment of Palestinians for the Palestinian's terrorism directed at Israel. I recall a different discussion about the Hells Angels in Canada and how you would want very violent things to happen to the Hells Angels as punishment for their crimes.

I asked if you could not see how the Israelis felt the same way about the Palestinians that you do about the Hells Angels.

You replied that you and Canada have never done to the Hells Angels what the Israelis have done to the Palestinians - occupation, war, etc.

That made me think; how would you react if the Native Americans in Canada had responded to their poor treatment in the same way Palestinians had; with terrorism?

If you view Palestinians as justified, then certainly the Indians of North America would be justified in using terrorism against the Canadian (or US for that matter) governments.

CR

[Beirut]

A question for Beirut:
I recall from previous threads about Israel that you blame the Israelis and their dehumanizing treatment of Palestinians for the Palestinian's terrorism directed at Israel. I recall a different discussion about the Hells Angels in Canada and how you would want very violent things to happen to the Hells Angels as punishment for their crimes.

I asked if you could not see how the Israelis felt the same way about the Palestinians that you do about the Hells Angels.

The Hells Angels are a criminal organization. The Palestinians are a people.

You replied that you and Canada have never done to the Hells Angels what the Israelis have done to the Palestinians - occupation, war, etc.

That made me think; how would you react if the Native Americans in Canada had responded to their poor treatment in the same way Palestinians had; with terrorism?

I would support the native people taking any actions required to protect themselves as long as those actions did not involve targeting innocent civilians. And besides, who says the Palestinian response is always terrorism? Sometimes it is, yes. But just as often, and more, and with far worse results, the Israelis indulge in acts of terrorism. Those Israeli acts of terrorism kill far, far more Palestinians than Palestinans terrorist have killed Israelis.

For our part, Canada has been responsible for the brutal and inhuman mistreatement of native peoples, and slowly, too slowly, we are coming to terms with it. Part of that redemption process, if you want to call it that, is that Canada gives jurisdictional rights to its native people that I think few countries in the world do.

If you view Palestinians as justified, then certainly the Indians of North America would be justified in using terrorism against the Canadian (or US for that matter) governments.

You are assuming and implying by the construction of your statement that I support terrorism. I do not. I support the right of the Palestinians to defend themselves. It is not the same thing.

[Fragony]

The right to defend themselves, who are the ones shooting rockets, who are brainwashing kids, who are using human shields for max boohoohoo. Palestinians are like the annoying kid who keeps pinching you, can ask him to stop but he won't, and when you finally hit him in the face he runs of crying to the teacher. And you get detention. Pinching doesn't hurt as much as a hit in the face, it's true.

As Golda Meir brilliantly put it, there will be peace if they love their children more than they hate the jews.

[LittleGrizzly]

The right to defend themselves, who are the ones shooting rockets, who are brainwashing kids, who are using human shields for max boohoohoo.

Aside from that last one... both sides

Palestinians are like the annoying kid who keeps pinching you, can ask him to stop but he won't, and when you finally hit him in the face he runs of crying to the teacher. And you get detention. Pinching doesn't hurt as much as a hit in the face, it's true.

In fairness you took his lunch money (teacher said you could) he can't get it back.

As I see it the Israeli's decided long ago, Land > Israeli's. Until that changes or there's some kind of dramatic power shift nothing will change

[Fragony]

I would do him a favour stealing his lunch money. They already are the second fattest people in the universe and surroundings, any more food could jam their arteries, no wonder with the billions of foreign aid they get. Meh to Palestinians if I go on holiday the drinks food and water-paradises aren't free. They should just shut the hell up.

[Crazed Rabbit]

I would support the native people taking any actions required to protect themselves as long as those actions did not involve targeting innocent civilians. And besides, who says the Palestinian response is always terrorism? Sometimes it is, yes. But just as often, and more, and with far worse results, the Israelis indulge in acts of terrorism. Those Israeli acts of terrorism kill far, far more Palestinians than Palestinans terrorist have killed Israelis.

You are assuming and implying by the construction of your statement that I support terrorism. I do not. I support the right of the Palestinians to defend themselves. It is not the same thing.

And what percentage of Palestinian 'defensive actions' aren't terrorism - that is, what do they do besides sending suicide bombers after civilians and firing rockets into cities? It seems like the only time they shoot at the IDF is when they provoke Israel so much with rocket attacks that the IDF roll in the tanks.

CR

[Fragony]

And what percentage of Palestinian 'defensive actions' aren't terrorism - that is, what do they do besides sending suicide bombers after civilians and firing rockets into cities? It seems like the only time they shoot at the IDF is when they provoke Israel so much with rocket attacks that the IDF roll in the tanks.

CR

Ya, screw them.

[Beirut]

The right to defend themselves, who are the ones shooting rockets, who are brainwashing kids, who are using human shields for max boohoohoo.

Who are the ones stealing land, imprisoning thousands without trial, using torture, killing men. woman, and children with every weapon imaginable, denying the very basics of human life, and keeping a million people in a brutal open air concentration camp decade after decade after decade?

As Golda Meir brilliantly put it, there will be peace if they love their children more than they hate the jews.

The Israelis keep killing Palestinian children so sometimes all the Palestinians parents have left is hate.

[Beirut]

And what percentage of Palestinian 'defensive actions' aren't terrorism - that is, what do they do besides sending suicide bombers after civilians and firing rockets into cities? It seems like the only time they shoot at the IDF is when they provoke Israel so much with rocket attacks that the IDF roll in the tanks.

CR

I don't support anyone killing civilians. I do, however, support the Palestinians doing as much damage to the IDF as possible, no matter where or when that action is taken. And I support the Palestinans enagaging in every level of civil disobediance that does not harm civilians.

[Fragony]

The Israelis keep killing Palestinian children so sometimes all the Palestinians parents have left is hate.

That is why Golda Meir is right, these kids are raised as soldiers, look at the schoolbooks, schoolplays, they are being skull****ed from day one.

[Beskar]

The Israelis keep killing Palestinian children so sometimes all the Palestinians parents have left is hate.

Nothing to do with the Palestinian kidnapping Israeli's, holding them to random, and firing rockets into Israel. In Israel the separating wall between Israel and Palestine is to keep Jewish Israeli's out of Palestine, because as soon as they cross, Palestinians would kidnap them, and since Israel doesn't want to supply 10 man armed body guards to protect their citizens, they are not allowed in Palestinian territories.

The Muslims in Israel are treated very well, so are the Drews, Jews, Catholics, Orthodox and Protestants and others. There is a lot of religious harmony and respect between people.

Only reason Osol accords and why peace-settlement is popular with the Israeli citizens is because they want peace and security. The Israeli's are not the bad guys, contrary to your belief. They are the guys who have to watch their backs for daggers and when people don't realise that, they just attack Israel on it's "aggressive" behaviour when they are very limited in what they can do to try to protect themselves.

I have been to Israel and Palestine, I have spoken to the people there, I was also constantly targeted by Israeli security either because I am on some Israeli watch-list, or they think i was the second coming of Goliath. But other that nuisance, I got to hear both sides of the story from the people there. From that, i have concluded if the whole area just went under direct Israeli administration with Palestinians becoming Israeli's and dropping their Palestinian identity card, then it would simply resolve this issue and everyone would live happily ever after.

[Crazed Rabbit]

I don't support anyone killing civilians. I do, however, support the Palestinians doing as much damage to the IDF as possible, no matter where or when that action is taken. And I support the Palestinans enagaging in every level of civil disobediance that does not harm civilians.

You didn't answer my question:
What percentage of Palestinian 'defensive actions' aren't terrorism?

The Israelis keep killing Palestinian children so sometimes all the Palestinians parents have left is hate.

Maybe if the one's who still had children didn't support the rocket firings and suicide bombings Israel wouldn't be provoked into retaliating once again.

CR

[Beirut]

That is why Golda Meir is right, these kids are raised as soldiers, look at the schoolbooks, schoolplays, they are being skullf*cked from day one.

That is happening on both sides.

[Beirut]

You didn't answer my question:
What percentage of Palestinian 'defensive actions' aren't terrorism?

What percentage? If I was to say 10% or 34% or 51%, how would you counter that number?

Maybe if the one's who still had children didn't support the rocket firings and suicide bombings Israel wouldn't be provoked into retaliating once again.
CR

Maybe if the ones who stole the land and imprisoned, brutalized, tortured, dehumanized, and killed the people who lived there didn't do those things, the other people wouldn't support those who fire rockets.

[Beirut]

Nothing to do with the Palestinian kidnapping Israeli's, holding them to random, and firing rockets into Israel. In Israel the separating wall between Israel and Palestine is to keep Jewish Israeli's out of Palestine, because as soon as they cross, Palestinians would kidnap them, and since Israel doesn't want to supply 10 man armed body guards to protect their citizens, they are not allowed in Palestinian territories.

The Zionists stole Palestinian land, and they continue to steal more land, and they keep well over a million people locked up under conditions that even a supporter of South African apartheid would agree were brutal. If there is antagosim, that is why.

Only reason Osol accords and why peace-settlement is popular with the Israeli citizens is because they want peace and security. The Israeli's are not the bad guys, contrary to your belief. They are the guys who have to watch their backs for daggers and when people don't realise that, they just attack Israel on it's "aggressive" behaviour when they are very limited in what they can do to try to protect themselves.

The Israelis are the bad guys. They are the ones who continue to steal land. They are the ones who kill far more innocent people than those they acuse of being murderes. They are the ones who run concentration camps and keep whole generations locked up under brutal and inhuman conditions. They are the ones who will kill you for attemtpting to bring food to the starving or medicine to the sick or building supplies to the homeless.

I have been to Israel and Palestine, I have spoken to the people there, I was also constantly targeted by Israeli security either because I am on some Israeli watch-list, or they think i was the second coming of Goliath. But other that nuisance, I got to hear both sides of the story from the people there. From that, i have concluded if the whole area just went under direct Israeli administration with Palestinians becoming Israeli's and dropping their Palestinian identity card, then it would simply resolve this issue and everyone would live happily ever after.

So the invaded should assume the identity of the invader to facilitate the invasion process?

That's a bit too Vichy for my blood. (And the Palestinians as well, thank God.)

[rory_20_uk]

Be careful saying "concentration camps". Anything that might be linked to the Holocaust is verboten - including drawing parallels.

[Beskar]

The Israelis are the bad guys. They are the ones who continue to steal land. They are the ones who kill far more innocent people than those they acuse of being murderes. They are the ones who run concentration camps and keep whole generations locked up under brutal and inhuman conditions. They are the ones who will kill you for attemtpting to bring food to the starving or medicine to the sick or building supplies to the homeless.

Actually, Israel legally own the Palestinian land. Israel and Palestine were separate until Jordan annex'd Palestine, and in the Israeli-Jordan war, Israel legally took those Palestinian territories from Jordan. So if you want some one to blame, blame Jordan and the Palestinians who handed over their sovereignty. Even then, before that, the area was controlled by the Ottoman Empire, then later in the British Mandate of Palestine. There hasn't been a Palestinian 'nation' there. Also, the "Israeli's" / "Jews" were always there as well oppressed under various rulers and controllers of the territory, but just expanded greatly in number after the creation of Israel. Also there is the fact the Jewish populace were the natives of that area anyway...

Also, trust me, Palestinians are not starving, they were trying to sell me bottles of Coca-cola and I visited a Jewelry shop which also has an office in New York, where everything was expensive heading into the thousands of dollars range. From high value diamonds, gold, deep sea salts, etc. Far from the perceived universal poverty you are sowing, they even have a Mc Donalds.

The only serious area is the Gaza strip where Muslim funded terrorists operate (ie: Hamas). There are no "concentration camps", and "kill you for attempting to bring food to the starving or medicine to the sick or building supplies to the homeless" is utter nonsense. I have been there and seen it for myself. I am not impressed by some of the ways Israel has handled things, but that shouldn't be a barrier to solving the issues in the area.

So the invaded should assume the identity of the invader to facilitate the invasion process?

I don't care for national borders, so fighting for some national identity is pointless and this talk is just rhetoric, I don't see you saying about Post-war Germany and Japan not facilitating to the Western allies after the second world war. I mean, look at Germany and Japan now, they are both great places. So yeah, Israel would be a great place too without the nutjobs.