Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default
Ah...Internet is a bad place for info about the EU, Pape.Originally Posted by Papewaio
The EU would love love love to have directly elected EU politicians. The EU would love nothing more than to be directly accountable to the voters. It is the electorates which have always rejected it.
Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default
Id rather have you to go and buy a gyros from your local Greek restaurant, as they are propably sending lot of their earnings back home any way.
Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.
Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default
you keep missing the point; identity!
no-one gives a hoot about european elections, or their european identity.
Nor. Is. Necessary. To. Invent. One.
What is wrong with a return to a europe built on the principle of intergovernmental rule whereby sovereign nations beholden to their electorates via legitimate ties founded in representation and accountability?
I really fail to understand this continual push to ever deeper union when it is:
1. not needed
2. not wanted
3. positively antagonistic to the continued good relations between european nations?
why? tell me why? please make me understand............... WHY?
Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar
Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default
If you don't take this of my back I'm going to order the most expensive menu at the local Greek and leave without paying. Think of the children
Our local Greek doesn't quite need it by the way http://www.pallasathene.nl/fotoboek....nderwerp=20096
Last edited by Fragony; 08-24-2011 at 15:18.
Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default
It has been realized from the beginning, allthough some seem to have forgotten meanwhile, that a common currency required certain norms regarding government debts and deficit spending. The Stability & Growth pact, as flawed as it was, could have been enough if the Council had ever acted on it to punish the worst offenders.
More realistic criteria is required, as well as the will to act upon them - by a supranational body if necessary, because an intergovernmental body like the Council has so far proven to be useless in this capacity. Sadly I don't expect anything of the sort will happen, and I don't think that the French-German proposal to enshrine debt limits in national constitutions will be uniformly applied either (Spain has apparently agreed, but I fear that Italian and Greek politicians won't have the courage to defend austerity to their electorates)
If there's to be a plebscite, it would have to be between:
A) a EU budget authority, or some other mechanism to effectively name&shame or fine the drunken spenders.
B) leaving the monetary union for that respective country.
"Fiscal sovereignty", as the fetishists call it, isn't completely lost under option A. Member states are still largely free in how they tax and how they spend; they're just not free to accumulate debt until a point where it threatens the larger EMU economy.
Despite the increased euroscepticism these past years, I would be surprised if option B would prevail in multiple countries. Bashing the Euro was very popular in Italy a couple of years back; now they crave the stability that it provides.
Last edited by Seamus Fermanagh; 08-25-2011 at 21:57. Reason: minimizing vulgarity
Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default
My friend, have you been to Greece recently? Have you any idea of the level of austerity that has already been imposed by its government? It seems to me that you are disconnected from reality, living in a cocoon of illusions and bureaucratic language that has no relation to facts of any sort.
Greek leaders should finally have the nerve to call it a day, leave the eurozone and restructure their debt to a sustainable level in view of the fact that that their economy is shrinking this year. That is the only reasonable course for Greece.
Last edited by Seamus Fermanagh; 08-25-2011 at 21:59.
The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott
Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default
This.
And I wish german and french leaders had the fortitude to tell them that instead of sinking even more money or guarantees(also money in the end) into the mess...
Last edited by Seamus Fermanagh; 08-25-2011 at 22:00.
"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default
Never been to Greece. Maybe what you say is inevitable for Greece, but don't expect me to be impressed by their "austerity".
So they stopped the practice of letting droves of people retire in their early 50'ies. They froze public service salaries, after they'd already risen by over 30% since 2006. I could go on, but you get the idea.
If the Greek government decides to leave the EMU, fine by me, but it won't be because of their testicular fortitude- something that Greek politicians have consistently lacked. Greece prides itself on having invented "democracy", yet is incapable of electing goverments that will do the right thing. Till now, instead of having leaders that take tough decisions and defend these measures in front of their voters, they had politicians that live in perpetual fear of riots and civil disobedience- and I'm not talking about the last 2 years alone.
Last edited by Kralizec; 08-24-2011 at 18:46. Reason: removed some snide reference
Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default
Greece is pretty backwards compared to Western standards and they have a big distrust of banks. This was evident when they went to change currency into the Euro and millions of people came into the banks with suitcases full of money to get it changed. They pay for everything in case so they can evade taxes and they were happy in their own little world doing whatever.
When the Euro came, it changed everything for the Greeks. They were no longer some random small corner and felt the need to improve themselves and they were brought dragging and kicking into the 20th Century from like the 18th overnight and they need lots of work doing still today.
Last edited by Beskar; 08-24-2011 at 17:36.
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Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default
Exactly. Severe austerity measures in Greece are five workdays in Germany.
Leaving the eurozone is not the solution. Being in EMU is what keeps Greek economy together at the moment. I'm really fascinated with the idea of Greece leaving euro and defaulting. It's basically saying, hey, have your economy crush and burn, let your GDP drop three times, have growth after ten years and proclaim victory but don't tell anyone that you need another 30 years of that growth to reach 2010 level of GDP. Brilliant indeed. In the meantime, enjoy being kicked out from just about any international financial institution and good luck with lawsuits.
Meanwhile, in the north, Germans are still angry because they still have to cover that loss. Even more French understand them completely.
Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default
So essentially you are saying that these are not even protective measures towards Greek economy, but the rest of the EU is somehow entitled to essentially providing for Greece. Why next to Spain and then for Italy. I am starting to feel like that the Central and Northern Europe is somehow a slot machine for Southern Europe. The difference being that you get a prize each time from this one.
Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.
Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default
^ all he said was that the greeks measures of austerity are pathetic because in functioning nations like germany they are the same way. All of greece's changes brought them from the ridiculous level they were at and put them at a responsible level. And that if a nations economy starts collapsing and their gdp is shrinking them kick them out.
Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default
If this is true then why was the Lisbon Treaty enacted after its first incarnation, the Constitution, was voted down by referenda, and why did the Irish vote twice?
The voting down of the Constitution was an opertunity for the European architechts to take a step back, look at their direction and adjust accordingly, instead they ducked and carried on in the same direction as they were already going.
If the EU is going to work then it HAS to make itself directly accountable, and that means a referendum in each country every time the Commission changed a treaty, if those changes keep getting voted down then that simply demonstrates that the EU lacks popular backing, and is therefore not going anywhere.
"If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."
[IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]
Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default
Greek economy started collapsing long a go before the changes.The changes were forced on them in order for the first support pack to go through.Greek ridiculous public spending, utter disrespect of EMU guidelines and irresponsible debt taking collapsed their economy. Now because of the Global economical situation , the massive amounts fellow EMU countries have supported the Greek economy is not providing a result it was aimed for. And still others should continue throwing money away at that direction?
Sorry, but no.Not atleast without clear guarantees for it.
Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.
Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default
Okay now you are just pissing me off. Why don't you read instead of knee jerking.
Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default
Whoa. Easy there dude.
Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
Ik hou van ferme grieten en dikke pinten
Down with dried flowers!
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default
and now we enter the real end-game:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/f...opes-bows.html
I give you the German President Christian Wulff:
remember me wittering on about that "shared familial sentiment", yes, yes, a trifling irrelevance against the importance of dry technocratic governance, i see that now.““I regard the huge buy-up of bonds of individual states by the ECB as legally and politically questionable. Solidarity is the core of the European Idea, but it is a misunderstanding to measure solidarity in terms of willingness to act as guarantor or to incur shared debts. With whom would you be willing to take out a joint loan, or stand as guarantor? For your own children? Hopefully yes. For more distant relations it gets a bit more difficult,”
lol!
Last edited by Furunculus; 08-24-2011 at 21:18.
Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar
Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default
hmm
I assume the German President is a largely ceremonial position just like the Irish President or the Queen in the UK???
The fact he commented on a current political situation is news enough really, usually ceremonial heads of state stay out of the mudpit.
They slew him with poison afaid to meet him with the steel
a gallant son of eireann was Owen Roe o'Neill.
Internet is a bad place for info Gaelic Cowboy
Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default
The president commonly stays out of the mudpit, therefore his words carry not inconsiderable moral weight when he does express a political concern.
There is obviously great unease in Germany, a sense of being robbed, 'why should we pay for the mess of others, we're not Europe's ATM'.
Not that I blame them. But gah! In the old days all you had to do at this point was a little improvised sketch, a John Cleesesque 'don't mention the war...oops likes like I just did'. Doesn't work anymore. Ever since the reconquista of Eastern Germany the Teutons have been restless in their oak forests.
ARE THEY CALLING THpsE NEW BUNDESLANDS MIDDLE GERMANY YET?
Personally, I wouldn't mind paying...if it meant helping the Greek poor, or safeguarding the purchasing power of Portuguese and Irish pensions. But who are we bailing out, exactly, French and German and Dutch banks, and an unworkable political project?
Louis - life was so much more fun back when there was just a grand European project and sceptics were just spiteful little fascists on the worng side of history
Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default
Life is rich and full of novel experience, just waiting to inhaled!
Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar
Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default
Yes and as I've stated if Europe wants to evolve to another level of statehood and get past the small scale nation state into a federation of nations then it either:
a) Wipes out most different people until they are 90% the same ethnic group (apparently it has been tried but was rather unsuccessful).
b) Go the Norman way and intergrate and become multicultural and hence be able to grow beyond the current borders.
I understand familial tendences are there, I just see it as an immense cultural failing when nations can't get beyond that point. The same failing that is responsible for 2 world wars.
Type (a) China, India and a lesser extent Indonesia... mind you not many people think they are a huge success per citizen... so maybe type (a) states aren't the best solution
Type (b) USA has already proved it is possible to create a larger state of diverse people.
Australia is much smaller but its economy and stability also prove this. Brazil is an up and coming world economy.
Singapore stradles a few crossroads... it is far more multicultural then its neighbours Malaysia and Indonesia but it is a very benign dictatorship. It is however very successful. Malaysia is probably less racist then Indonesia and as such Malaysia is more successful.
So to go from hunter gatherers, to tribes, to city states, to nations all require increasing ability in handling numbers (social network size), recipriocal arrangements (longer time, further distance, and enhanced by inventions such as money, banks, stocks etc) and the ability to handle change (diverse work, home and culutural environments) as modern economies rely on more and more diversity (specialisation) to succeed.
This is of course iff the people want to form an EU. And if that is the case the first step should have been representation... particularly if their taxes are being spent. Form the political core first, including voting on EU senators/commissioners/referees or whatever name people what to use. Factor in several things: votes by nation, by population and somewhat by GDP
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
If they don't want a political union then unwind the economic parts that require the people to act as fundraisers for foreign entities. Ultimately a modern nation should have representation by voting by the people... every rule has an exception, Singapore already has dibs on that, so either become a modern democratically elected EU are devolve... either way let the people decide.
Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
Pape for global overlord!!
Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default
Huh? Did i not address your points or did i?
Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.
Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default
agreed with the thrust of what you're saying, merely noting that continental europe is getting the worst of both worlds here; federal europe without the consent of the people, therefore percieved to be unaccountable and unrepresentative.
i think we can admit that life is a little more complex than that bland statement, and that europe has got on just fine as a collection of cooperating and collaborating sovereign nation states as the EEC and EC.I understand familial tendences are there, I just see it as an immense cultural failing when nations can't get beyond that point. The same failing that is responsible for 2 world wars.
i could equally point out that poorly integrated federal states, where the population don't feel they own the identity and cannot relate to government acts supposedly taken in their name, can lead to brutal civil war such as occurred in the former Yugoslavia.
and that point about world wars completely ignores the fact that political governance is always most appropriate at the smallest level efficiency can allow, because variations in societal expectations will always lead to tension. the nation states of europe are already a very effective form of governance, and no-one has ever demonstrated to me that a federal europe will give a better result.
Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar
Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default
I know a lot of my post are barbed tongue in cheek... I just find it annoying when states fail at things that they should be good at and that others have managed to get their head around.
I think variations in social expectations does create tension, but not always bad. If society allows social mobility and the tension is not too great it can energise a nation and allow it to grow.
Both China and Japan tried to cut themselves off from the rest of the world only to have their nations fall backwards compared with the hustle and bustle of the trading European and American nations.
One wants to maintain a gentle simmer however and minimise the boil overs.
=][=
One of the reasons touted in getting rid of the Euro is the ability of nations to manage their debt by inflation... just remember it might be currency speculators doing the managing and the damaging instead.
I think governments need to look into more ways to cool off or warm up an economy instead of very broad measures like currency devaluation or increasing interest rates... what those tools could be well I'm not an economist... but it would be nicer to see some scapel instruments used rather then sledgehammers... I'm also against the manner in which interest rates are changed based on changes in the CPI due to increases in non-discretionary parts of the economy... raise petrol, CPI goes up therefore interest goes up because CPI rose... that and banks at least here raise and lower there interest rates based on the world economy not the local one.
Last edited by Papewaio; 08-25-2011 at 11:32.
Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
Pape for global overlord!!
Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default
you're conflating not wanting to be part of a federal entity with being insular and isolationist.
that is rather absurd, as we are one of the most open economies in the world, and already have free movement of people and goods within the european common market. britain isn't going to join the federal party, but many of the eurozone might if the currency is to survive, so it's about time that their governments sought mandate from their peoples don't you think?
and to set an interest rate appropriate to that economies stage in its economic cycle. interests rates in the eurozone have been set to german preferences, i.e. too low for the rest, hence rampant borrowing from the olive nations that realised they'd never had it so good!
Last edited by Furunculus; 08-25-2011 at 12:23.
Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar
Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default
No what I'm worried about is too much "me-ism" and a potential backlash/over correction caused by over eager politicians who aren't the most subtle at times particularly when trying to read the murky crystal ball of opinion polls. The federated version I was thinking of was soverign nations check, with the EU politicans elected directly by the people. Allow a lot of autonomy for defence, eductation and hospitals, just try and unite the economy (but allow the people who are deciding this to be directly voted upon).
I think a mandate from their peoples should have been sought first and foremost before they let other countries meddle with their economic policies... which obviously effect their quality of life... not sure if I would be a fan of diminished soverignty for soverigns.
Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
Pape for global overlord!!
Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default
Small problem; no-one wants it.*
* other than beskar and six other people.
Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar
Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default
I'm writing that one down.olive nations
Your Telegraph article is pretty selective in translating bits of Wullf's words. His full speech:
http://www.bundespraesident.de/Share...istraeger.html
Was wird da eigentlich verlangt? Mit wem würden Sie persönlich einen gemeinsamen Kredit aufnehmen? Auf wen soll Ihre Bonität zu Ihren Lasten ausgedehnt werden? Für wen würden Sie persönlich bürgen? Und warum? Für die eigenen Kinder – hoffentlich ja! Für die Verwandtschaft – da wird es schon schwieriger. Vielleicht würden wir bürgen, wenn nur so der andere die Chance bekommt, wieder auf die eigenen Füße zu kommen. Sonst doch nur dann, wenn wir wüssten, dass wir uns nicht übernehmen und die Bürgschaft in unserem, dessen und dem gemeinsamen Interesse ist. Auch der Bürge kann sich unmoralisch verhalten, wenn er die Insolvenz nur hinauszögert.
Paraphrased:
Would you put forward garantues for your children? Hopefully yes! For other relatives this question is more difficult. Perhaps we will lend garantues, when this is the only way to help the other get back on his feet. But only if it's in ours, theirs and the common interest. Even the garantuer can act unethically, when all he does is postpone insolvency.
Erst recht, wenn die obersten Währungshüter dafür auch noch weit über ihr Mandat hinausgehen und massiv Staatsanleihen - derzeit im Volumen von über 110 Milliarden Euro - aufkaufen. Dies kann auf Dauer nicht gut gehen und kann allenfalls übergangsweise toleriert werden. Auch die Währungshüter müssen schnell zu den vereinbarten Grundsätzen zurückkehren.
...the "currency guardian" (ECB) goes far beyond it's mandate by buying massive amounts of government bonds - exceeding 110 billion EURo. This can't go well in the long run and can only be tolerated as a transitional measure. The [ECB], too, must soon return to the agreed/established principles.
Und einen weiteren Befund finde ich bemerkenswert: Für die europäischen Länder ist ein enger Zusammenhang zwischen der Lebenszufriedenheit und dem Vertrauen in die Mitmenschen gemessen worden. Einander Vertrauen zu schenken, ehrlich miteinander zu sein, ist die Grundlage für menschliches Wohlbefinden, für Kooperation und Zusammenhalt. Gerade hier schließt sich der Kreis zur monetären Wirtschaft. Einander Kredit gewähren ist die Grundlage für eine funktionierende Marktwirtschaft und solides Wachstum. Auf Vertrauen kommt es an. Wir müssen ehrlich miteinander und mit uns selbst sein.
One other conclusion I find worth mentioning: for the European countries there is a narrow correlation between satisfaction in life and trust in the fellow man. To trust one another, to be honest with eachother, is the foundation of human welfare, for cooperation and cohesion. This is the exact point where the economic circle closes. To give eachother credit is the foundation of a functioning market economy and a solid growth rate. It depends on trust. We must be honest with eachother and ourselves.
....
That's just a few bits, of course. I've read the entire speech, and while it does contain criticism, it seems to me that the Telegraph has misrepresented it.
Last edited by Kralizec; 08-25-2011 at 13:22.
Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default
This has been the British gripe for about 20 years, it's not EU integration per se Brits don't like, it's the fact that no one asked us.
"If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."
[IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]
Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default
I can guarantee you that no one wants that here at all.
1921 for dominion status and 1948 for the declaration of the republic, it not long enough ago to be complacent about it, people are still very twitchy about having our own government. (hence all the NO votes and the crises that went with them)
No will be NO the next time just wait and see.
Last edited by gaelic cowboy; 08-25-2011 at 13:21.
They slew him with poison afaid to meet him with the steel
a gallant son of eireann was Owen Roe o'Neill.
Internet is a bad place for info Gaelic Cowboy
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