International board, or something, and the mods, and ciao

[Shibumi]

I just recently noticed that I was banned from the backroom, which is fair enough. This is a private forum, so of course you can set whatever rules you guys want.

I was somewhat surprised though.

The thing is, I joined up here because I had heard that aside from the TW content, this forum also offered political discussions of international standards, with some interesting characters, and dedicated moderators. For me, that was the selling point as to why I would sign up here instead of more popular TW forums.

I have noticed since I signed on that there has been quite some discussions as to how to keep the forum alive, and from what I have seen, this forum does not do as well as some others.

After having spent some time here, I have more understanding as to why this is. And I can't say I am much surprised. To be quite frank, I will just "bow out of here". Well, I was actually banned, so maybe I should just say I was kicked out.

The message I got regarding the ban:

Dear Shibumi,

You have received an infraction at The Org.

Reason: Major Infraction
-------
Couldn't resist, could you? Your Backroom access has been suspended pending staff review of your continued participation.
-------

This infraction is worth 2 point(s).

Original Post:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=2053374337

I remember I was at home, a friend messaged me on ICQ (it still existed back then).

I watched the news fuss about it, had a beer, and thought: "cheers to whoever it was that slammed them"

Of course I am just joking, the third world should by then of course have learnt that it is unfair not to mention unseemly to fight back.

Someone replied to the post I made, and I at once stated that I was not joking about the joking..

The rage against my post would thus towards the part "the third world should by then of course have learnt that it is unfair not to mention unseemly to fight back"

Enough to warrant a ban on a board that claim to be international, maybe.

I did however see very very very very very worse comments in the OBL death thread. Didn't notice the ban stick being used much though.

Sure I said the 9/11 attack was "unseemly" and "unfair" instead of "a crime against humanity at large", but then, again, I am not from the US.

However, what actually made me decide that this was not really worth my time was the moderators reply when I asked what was wrong with the post.

I messaged you yesterday regarding this incident, maybe you missed it.

Regardless, my question was: what in my post was seen as offensive?

Hello Shibumi

No, I didn't miss your PM, I just had better things to do.

May I suggest you look at your post and the context it was made, and work it out for yourself. Let me know when the light goes on, and maybe your understanding will persuade us to lift your suspension.

Regards

BG

I have been in some contact with the moderators on other parts of the forum, and have been quite impressed. However, answers like this does not exactly impress me.

So, well, -1 member.

May I suggest you change the selling point of this board? "Org. - where americans can feel secure, and moderators grow their E-*****"

I am sure you can find a market

Ciao

[drone]

You did read post #1, written in green to denote the moderator's official rules for the thread, correct? Everyone was warned ahead of time to be on their best behavior. I'm not really sure what else you expected.

[Hamata]

go take your aurguian to twc they have a hole fourm reserved for debating

[Shibumi]

You did read post #1, written in green to denote the moderator's official rules for the thread, correct? Everyone was warned ahead of time to be on their best behavior. I'm not really sure what else you expected.

Not really, as in reading the OP. I think I just pressed read last (option from the main page, you know), and then the new posts. Are we expected to read OPs? However, what was written in green, is it somewhat related to what is said about posting about dead people?

My point is, that there seem to be some double standards on this international forum.

Joking about slams and claiming it is rude when people fight back = AN OFFENSE!

Joking about sand******* and talking about chopping the balls off of less educated = quite ok.

I think my point is, it is a private forum, you can set whatever rules you want. But just be open about it. Make it clear what is ok, and what is not. Otherwise it is hard for people to adapt, and equally, people of certain political views might (read: will) get frustrated when what is their local mainstream thinking all of a sudden is some sort of horrendeous error.

edit: Pharoah - I have, since some months ago. Thanks for the advice though, no matter how you meant it, it was good advice.

[drone]

Not really, as in reading the OP. I think I just pressed read last (option from the main page, you know), and then the new posts. Are we expected to read OPs? However, what was written in green, is it somewhat related to what is said about posting about dead people?

How are you supposed to know what the topic is if you don't read the OP?

Joking about slams and claiming it is rude when people fight back = AN OFFENSE!

Joking about sand******* and talking about chopping the balls off of less educated = quite ok.

Warnings and infractions are not made public unless the member makes it so, only perma-bans are posted.

I think my point is, it is a private forum, you can set whatever rules you want. But just be open about it. Make it clear what is ok, and what is not. Otherwise it is hard for people to adapt, and equally, people of certain political views might (read: will) get frustrated when what is their local mainstream thinking all of a sudden is some sort of horrendeous error.

Again, the rules were stated, quite clearly, in the OP of the thread.

[PanzerJaeger]

If a similar thread were made about, say, the recent Norwegian terrorist attack, and a member had made a similar "cheers to whoever slammed them" post, do you believe the moderator's response would be any different? The issue is the lack of respect (probably with the intent to troll) in your post, not the nationalities involved. BQ is Irish, Countarch is Australian, and Ser Clegane is German, and I think it is fair to say each leans towards your own critical point of view on recent American foreign policy. Only Seamus is American, and you don't seem to have had any issues with him. That backroom reputation you mentioned in your OP is based on a foundation of common decency and mutual respect, not any deference towards a particular country or countries.

I hope that you will reconsider your decision to leave. You are obviously a smart guy with strong opinions, which makes for an excellent backroom contributor. I was removed from the backroom for similar behavior for a little over a year in the past, and in that time I came to appreciate what that particular subforum represents and why the moderators are so proactive in maintaining decorum. It may have fewer members and it may get less traffic, but the quality of discussion on a bad day is tenfold better than what you can find on most other current events forums.

I know how entertaining it can be to play the game (and engage in all the drama that is associated with it such as this thread), but it is so much more rewarding to work within the established framework to bounce actual ideas off of those of other contributors without all the acrimony, personal insults, and flame wars that can be found on a million and one other forums. Trolling is ultimately a waste of time, but contributing with honest intentions will often yield a better understanding of opposing views, and sometimes even your own.

[Tuuvi]

It's possible to be anti-american without being a jerk and a troll.

[a completely inoffensive name]

I'm gonna be the lone ranger here and say he shouldn't have been banned from the backroom. Punished, yeah. But the backroom has a tendency to have disgusting opinions tolerated as long as they are "dressed up" nicely. I can find a few from the past couple months that I was surprised to see go unpunished.

[Beskar]

Banquo's Ghost is a pretty cool guy.

He might spank you now and then, but then you end up to the point where you tend to enjoy it and that is when you and him become good friends and chums.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Banquo's Ghost is a pretty cool guy.

He might spank you now and then, but then you end up to the point where you tend to enjoy it and that is when you and him become good friends and chums.

So does that make me and BG good friends now ??

I love reading these threads.

Dude, take my advice. Going ahead with Mods in public can be fun and stress reveling, it is, trust me, but you never win. Just cuss them out or whatever in your head and just stay good and don't cause anymore problems and you be ok.

[Hosakawa Tito]

I think my point is, it is a private forum, you can set whatever rules you want. But just be open about it. Make it clear what is ok, and what is not. Otherwise it is hard for people to adapt, and equally, people of certain political views might (read: will) get frustrated when what is their local mainstream thinking all of a sudden is some sort of horrendeous error.

Wow.

Rarely have I taken the advice of someone who detest me (even if they might be somewhat late reaching the conclussion, and frankly put - stating the very obvious). I guess that just shows the brilliance of the mods around here.

Flying jetliners into buildings and slaughtering thousands is flippantly justified and considered "mainstream thinking"? That's quite a crowd you think with. I don't detest you, but I do pity you.

[Samurai Waki]

The backroom may be open to serious discussions and strong opinions; but even if it was a joke, it was in very poor taste and totally insensitive, if you were in my bar.. I'd kick you out too.

[phantom]

My point is, that there seem to be some double standards on this international forum.

what was your first clue??? your not part of the 'in crowd', either deal with it or go elsewhere. there is one law for you and me and another law for them and their favorites, the people that rise to be 'senior members', and eventually moderators. of course they will deny it and probably call me a troll, but as an observer ive seen it a lot here.

Flying jetliners into buildings and slaughtering thousands is flippantly justified and considered "mainstream thinking"? That's quite a crowd you think with. I don't detest you, but I do pity you.

so debating something like 9/11 has to be done in such a way that it does not offend your sensibilities? its a controversial issue and divides much of the world so your not going to like some of the opinions you hear, if a debate forum does not allow freedom of expression, especially politically: just close it down as its not worth a and has pretty much become an exclusive 'old boys club'. if your going to 'moderate' people as soon as they post something which does not conform to your particular set of morals, then any 'debate' is without worth and it is also probably one of the main reasons this place has lost so many members.

[Husar]

what was your first clue??? your not part of the 'in crowd', either deal with it or go elsewhere. there is one law for you and me and another law for them and their favorites, the people that rise to be 'senior members', and eventually moderators. of course they will deny it and probably call me a troll, but as an observer ive seen it a lot here.

You're not a troll. But not a good observer either. I'm a relatively new moderator and didn't ask for it and so far I have never really found this in-club you're talking about, not as a member and not as a moderator with a bit more insight. Except if you mean that long-standing members know eachother relatively well, but that kinda comes with hanging out for a while, no?

so debating something like 9/11 has to be done in such a way that it does not offend your sensibilities? its a controversial issue and divides much of the world so your not going to like some of the opinions you hear, if a debate forum does not allow freedom of expression, especially politically: just close it down as its not worth a and has pretty much become an exclusive 'old boys club'. if your going to 'moderate' people as soon as they post something which does not conform to your particular set of morals, then any 'debate' is without worth and it is also probably one of the main reasons this place has lost so many members.

This is mostly correct, except that the policy here has always been that you should state your opinion with some respect towards other members and in a non-inflammatory way, which is quite possible and has nothing to do with demanding that everybody agrees with anyone's opinion, it's about not starting flamewars. I've seen a forum where this wasn't enforced and the conclusion they came to was to close down the politics section completely because they saw how it affected relations between members who could otherwise be good friends.

In the last months I've often seen Shibumi make very short posts that only seemed to serve the purpose of ridiculing America or other behaviour that could be seen as trolling, so even if he was joking, it's entirely plausible that some would think he only claimed that so his troll post would not be deleted and he wouldn't be infracted. I remember a time where he would make lengthier posts and explain his opinions etc. and IIRC he didn't have a lot of trouble with Backroom moderators then. If he came here to debate, then he should do so and not post a few lines that make him look like he hates the USA and wants nothing but to troll Americans.

I've also taken the liberty to edit your quote a bit since your use of language does not comply with forum rules either, maybe you should read them and note that the forum aims to be PG-13, which means if you look for an adult forum, you may well be wrong here, which I hope isn't our fault.

[Drunk Clown]

what was your first clue??? your not part of the 'in crowd', either deal with it or go elsewhere. there is one law for you and me and another law for them and their favorites, the people that rise to be 'senior members', and eventually moderators. of course they will deny it and probably call me a troll, but as an observer ive seen it a lot here.

The main reason why I visit this forum a lot less.
As said there are 2 camps: moderators + friends (upper class) and the new members + the members with another mindset (lower class). They treat both classes different. But who can blame them? Would you punish one of your friends? Or colleagues? (Yes even moderators cross the line. Although it's the line of the other camp. The line of Moderators+friends lies father away and is harder to cross.) You need to cooperate as a team and you can't have tension.

This is all false of course according to the upper class of this forum.
I think I'm 1 centimeter off of this line with this post. Sure this is our line not the upper class his line. LOL I would still have a mile to travel for that line.

[InsaneApache]

I'll tell you what. There is no clique. I have over the years received several warnings from mods and even one time, from admin. I've been on these boards nearly ten years so a lot of posters know my style and scintillating, rapier sharp wit. I have friends who joined after me and are now senior members or mods. As several of my friends have become mods, I tend to self police. Because they're friends and I wouldn't want to put them in an awkward position. Just as in RL.

It seems to me that someone hasn't bothered to read the forum rules.

That is all.

As an after thought.

I've come across this phenomenon on message boards several times over the years. Sometimes it's true. Sometimes it isn't. The .Org falls into the latter. It's all about perception IMHO.

[Ja'chyra]

Can I be in the in-crowd, probably not as a certain German mod wouldn't allow it :P

[drone]

I think I'm 1 centimeter off of this line with this post. Sure this is our line not the upper class his line. LOL I would still have a mile to travel for that line.

Why would you think your post is close to this "line"? There is no bad language, no personal attacks, no flaming, no pr0n, no spam, no piracy talk. It's a good post that expresses your feelings and opinions in a clear manner. More please.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Even if it's wrong.

[Husar]

Would you punish one of your friends? Or colleagues?

Depending on what they did, yes.

[Drunk Clown]

Depending on what they did, yes.

Thread: Gender
Post: #2

There is no option. You shall have to just pick it up.


Here's a quick list of people you've already encountered in the Backroom:


Girls:
Secura - I think, could be a guy.
Louise VI the Fat (I worry a lot about my weight! Hence the name!)
Furunculus - British lass. Usually drunk. Which gets her horny, that little slut.
TinCow - she named herself after TinBull, her husband who also visits this forum.

Boys:
Frogbeast - won't stop talking about his visits to the gym. Bit of a macho, but alright.
Proletariat - 'beer and burps' kinda guy.
Sir Clegane - Collects WWI memorabilia. Smokes cigars. Sportscar.
AdrianII - the Backroom's bitter old man. He's 73 years old. Used to play strategy games in the 1980s, which he still thinks this website is all about.

Unclear:
PanzerJaeger - effeminate gay. Will instantly recognise sixties haircuts and talk about Polynesian interior design.
Lemur - loves men too, but more of a moustache and chesthair type. He's in love with Faggony, the Backroom's resident Muslim fag.
Banquo's Ghost - dunno! I think its a woman but I'm not sure!


Hope that helps! Maybe we can expand on it here!

Please explain this. Where's the censorship?
After all, I get a warning for something simple like this:

Dear Drunk Clown,

You have received a warning at The Org.

Reason:
-------
Warning

Drunk Clown,

Insulting other members by calling them pathetic and their arguments rubbish is not acceptable.

Please refrain from these sorts of aggressive posts. Disagreements must be expressed politely.

Thanks,
CR
-------

Original Post:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...p?p=2053365580
If I see one thing here, it's that people over idolize Morrowind. Just wake up.

Most of your arguments are rubbish anyway. Fast travel is a choice, you're not forced to do it. More options is better according to you, so why not fast travel.

This whole point of you missing places around Cyrodiil caused by fast travel isn't a flaw of the game, it's a flaw of you, you used fast travel right?
It's just pathetic, you want to convince others so much that Oblivion sucks that you look for non existent problems.

All the best,
The Org

Above there's a post about: "shoo fly"
How I interpret this is: Get out bothersome boy.
In my book, that's insulting and derogatory. And I call it an aggressive post.

I quoted bad words of a member, this is punishable, but it's the only way to make my point here. (do note that I have more)

[Rhyfelwyr]

The topic of an "in crowd" came up here before and I think we realised the only thing that could be said about the in crowd was that nobody thought they were in it.

Sometimes there can be a lot of in-jokes or what not but that doesn't really go beyond the bromance between Strike and Louis.

[Centurion1]

i get banned and get warnings and infractions all the time. If there is an in group i most certainly not among its members.

[Strike For The South]

what was your first clue??? your not part of the 'in crowd', either deal with it or go elsewhere. there is one law for you and me and another law for them and their favorites, the people that rise to be 'senior members', and eventually moderators. of course they will deny it and probably call me a troll, but as an observer ive seen it a lot here.
.

Finally, someone GETS it

I have never been warned, banned, or reprimanded. And on the first of every month I get a cut of the ad revenue

BOW PLEBAINS BOW

[Samurai Waki]

The reason why a lot of us aren't Senior Members despite being around for a long time is that we've contributed rather little in the day-to-day running of the website. Some people have acquired it simply because they are a force in personality (Devastatin' Dave); but I've never really used the .org for it's intended purpose after about the first year of being around-- besides, it's a Senior Membership for a minor gaming website, so if it doesn't happen it's not that big of a deal.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Thread: Gender
Post: #2

Girls:
Secura - I think, could be a guy.
Louise VI the Fat (I worry a lot about my weight! Hence the name!)
Furunculus - British lass. Usually drunk. Which gets her horny, that little slut.
TinCow - she named herself after TinBull, her husband who also visits this forum.

Please explain this. Where's the censorship?
After all, I get a warning for something simple like this:

Most of your arguments are rubbish anyway. Fast travel is a choice, you're not forced to do it. More options is better according to you, so why not fast travel.

This whole point of you missing places around Cyrodiil caused by fast travel isn't a flaw of the game, it's a flaw of you, you used fast travel right?
It's just pathetic, you want to convince others so much that Oblivion sucks that you look for non existent problems.

Let me explain the difference. In the bolded bit of your post, below, do you make an insulting and derogatory remark?

Above there's a post about: "shoo fly"
How I interpret this is: Get out bothersome boy.
In my book, that's insulting and derogatory. And I call it an aggressive post.

No, of course not. Words take their meaning in a context. Your quoted 'Shoo, fly' means something entirely different in your post than in the one you quoted. It is pointless to bold two words and take them outside of their context.

This thread lacks Godwin, so here is proof Hitler loved Jews and wanted to kill Germans:

Hitler at rally, 1936: 'Nuremberg is the German mind carved in stone! I love [...] the Jews! Die by the millions will [...] the German people!

It should be obvious what I did there.

I think it should also be perfectly obvious that the 'Louise worries about her weight' post is light-hearted banter. Not at all prone to cause offense. Besides, that fat French cow has since got her weight back under control and looks great in her old dresses again.

Not that this means she goes out pubbing and slutting. Like Furunculus does. That drunk wanton wench. I tell you, this summer during her Labour Party Summer Camp she did all the guys there. Some lascivious little lass, she is.

[a completely inoffensive name]

As long as the two people are buddies, they can call each other sluts and faggots because we all know it is just playful banter.

[phantom]

From the watch tower forum description

'A forum to discuss Org policy, organization, and features.'


The description does not say

'A forum to pelt those who do not conform with rotten fruits and buckets of piss'


The forum member made a complaint or raised an issue, whatever you think of his complaint it is clear that he has not been treated with respect, instead the same people are here again trolling and spamming this thread with trashy posts which are obviously only funny to the 'in crowd' (no wait they do not exist!), sadly moderators included. they can do this freely as they seem to have a free licence.

Yet the funny thing is that one moderator refers only to my use of bad language. he does not dare challenge his established circle of friends or the other staff.

'shoo fly' posted by a moderator - equivalent to 'don't let the door hit your ass on the way out', but that's ok here but his posts in the back room or his daring to make this thread is not?

Members following the same trend, copycatting the same behaviour. shameful.

[Andres]

From the watch tower forum description

'A forum to discuss Org policy, organization, and features.'


The description does not say

'A forum to pelt those who do not conform with rotten fruits and buckets of piss'


The forum member made a complaint or raised an issue, whatever you think of his complaint it is clear that he has not been treated with respect, instead the same people are here again trolling and spamming this thread with trashy posts which are obviously only funny to the 'in crowd' (no wait they do not exist!), sadly moderators included. they can do this freely as they seem to have a free licence.

Yet the funny thing is that one moderator refers only to my use of bad language. he does not dare challenge his established circle of friends or the other staff.

'shoo fly' posted by a moderator - equivalent to 'don't let the door hit your ass on the way out', but that's ok here but his posts in the back room or his daring to make this thread is not?

Members following the same trend, copycatting the same behaviour. shameful.

Allthough it saddens me deeply, I have to say I agree entirely with this post.

[Andres]

Hello Shibumi

No, I didn't miss your PM, I just had better things to do.

May I suggest you look at your post and the context it was made, and work it out for yourself. Let me know when the light goes on, and maybe your understanding will persuade us to lift your suspension.

Regards

BG

I don't know if there's a long history or not between Shibumi and staff, but frankly, that's irrelevant and not the point here. Those who thought that that was the point, completely misunderstood the OP.

I can perfectly understand that moderating is sometimes a frustrating job and requires endless patience. That said, addressing a member in that way in the capacity of moderator is simply not done.

"I just had better things to do", "work it out for yourself" and "Let me know when the light goes on" are not only completely unnecessary additions, they are also condescending and insulting.

I don't know all the details of Shibumi's history with staff, but, as I said, that's completely irrelevant. Such a pm is a "no".

Let me explain the difference. In the bolded bit of your post, below, do you make an insulting and derogatory remark?

Above there's a post about: "shoo fly"
How I interpret this is: Get out bothersome boy.
In my book, that's insulting and derogatory. And I call it an aggressive post.

No, of course not. Words take their meaning in a context. Your quoted 'Shoo, fly' means something entirely different in your post than in the one you quoted. It is pointless to bold two words and take them outside of their context.

This thread lacks Godwin, so here is proof Hitler loved Jews and wanted to kill Germans:

Hitler at rally, 1936: 'Nuremberg is the German mind carved in stone! I love [...] the Jews! Die by the millions will [...] the German people!

It should be obvious what I did there.

I think it should also be perfectly obvious that the 'Louise worries about her weight' post is light-hearted banter. Not at all prone to cause offense. Besides, that fat French cow has since got her weight back under control and looks great in her old dresses again.

Not that this means she goes out pubbing and slutting. Like Furunculus does. That drunk wanton wench. I tell you, this summer during her Labour Party Summer Camp she did all the guys there. Some lascivious little lass, she is.

A whole lot of blahblahblah.

The point remains that calling somebody a "fag" is not allowed here at the .Org. The mere use of the word "fag" in itself constitutes a rule violation, imo. The word is a derogatory term for homosexuals and is in itself insulting, regardless of context.

Saying you danced naked with Fragony at the local gay parade would've been funny in a certain context. Calling another patron "a Muslim fag" isn't. The latter also violates the rules, no matter how much disclaimers and "it's a joke!" you put around it. It's not allowed here; period.

***

A member posted a complaint in the Watchtower. Regardless of the past history of that member, such a complaint needs to be addressed in the respectful, friendly, helpful and civilised way we at the .Org claim ourselves to be known for.

The most important point of the complaint, namely a moderator sending a pm to a member which crosses the line, has been completely ignored. To make it worse, injury was added to injury. Then another member, Drunk Clown, raises another valid point and then we see a moderator trying his best to internet lawyer himself out of it.

Last time I checked, nobody ever died of admitting a mistake and apologising for it.

This thread makes me feel sad.

It also pisses me off.

[phantom]

I looked at shibumi's warning in the first post and agree that it is both condescending, dismissive and unnecessary. if this moderator does not have the time he should do the right thing and resign. it reminds me of a school teacher telling off school kid, which is not pleasant and should not happen in an internet forum. there is no excuse for a member to be addressed like that by forum staff in what is supposed to be an 'official' communication. it is simply a breach of trust and abuse of power.

It is clear the member was given the warnings for posting that 'joke' about the 9/11 attack, not because a rule was broken, but because the moderator felt personal offence or annoyance. yet as andres posted above, the moderators and their friends are allowed to make similarly tasteless and sexist 'jokes' about 'fags', 'slutting' and 'whores'. if i am to go to the front room now and start a worthless thread about 'fags' and 'whores' what will happen to me and the thread? this is what the real world calls double standards.

unfortunately there are a lot of normal people around the world who did welcome the events of 9/11 and accepting that instead of silencing and censoring those people is the first step towards challenging those thoughts, but both sides need to meet in the middle for any progress to be made. also 'forum lawyering' is a very good term for what is happening here.

if its ok to have threads which say for example that bombing iraq was necessary, carpet bombing berlin was ok and nuking japan was ok, then someone who thinks hitting those two towers with planes also needs to have the same freedom of speech, especially in a forum which is presumably closed to the public for these very reasons?

andres is clearly a 'senior member', but unlike some others I don't need to see his user title to come to that conclusion. thank you andres.