Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Yes CR, but they can't have been REAL Christians, because real Christians don't murder children.

Well - if a Christian is one who keeps faith with Christ, then someone who kills children isn't keeping faith. Is he?

This goes back to what I wrote about the Bible though.... The problem isn't that there isn't good stuff in it, there is. The problem is that you need quite some mental wriggling to skip by the less pleasant episodes of the Bible. And when writing a holy book, you should bear in mind that it WILL in the end be interpreted by some guy, living in a basement, eating road kills, having the Bible and Guns & Ammo as only literature around.

You must have been reading my posts - I've been saying basically this for years.

PVC, afraid of heights or was it something else? How about mountainbiking?

I have quite bad balance, I favour my left side very strongly - I'm actually diagnosed with "Minimal Cerebral Palsy" - I even have the dent in the right side of my skull. Anyway - bike riding doesn't work well, I managed to get to grips with it a bit, but it's not remotely fun, I think I could ride a bike if I needed to, but I'd always rather walk.

The climbing thing - absolute terror, it's the urge to jump, or in this case undo the straps and plummet. It's difficult to explain, it's not a rational fear you can master - it's like when you're a small child and you're utterly terrified. That's not something you want to go through in a public climbing hall, especially since it only kicks in at about 8-10 feet up, then I'm frozen.

[total relism]

Rhyf,


TR, can you respect a world view where morals are not absolute?

Can you also respect a world view looking at the Christian writings, thinking they are horribly amoral?

On rape:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

“So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. “This is what you are to do,” they said. “Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin.” Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.
“The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, “How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God’s curse.”
Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, “Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, ‘Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn’t find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.’” So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.” – Judges 21:10-24
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“They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.
Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. “Why have you let all the women live?” he demanded. “These are the very ones who followed Balaam’s advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD’s people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.” – Numbers 31:7-18
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“As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.” - Deuteronomy 20:10-14
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“If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.” - Deuteronomy 22:28-29
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“If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.” - Deuteronomy 22:23-24
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“Thus says the Lord: ‘I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.’
“Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” Nathan answered David: “The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die.” - 2 Samuel 12:11-14
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“When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive’s garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion.”- Deuteronomy 21:10-14
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“They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera’s spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil.” Judges 5:30
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“When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.” - Exodus 21:7-11
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“Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city. - Zechariah 14:1-2

On slavery:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

“However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.” - Leviticus 25:44-46
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“If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.’ If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever.” - Exodus 21:2-6
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“When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. - Exodus 21:7-11
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“When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.” - Exodus 21:20-21
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“Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ.” - Ephesians 6:5
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“Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them.” - 1 Timothy 6:1-2
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“The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. “But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given.” - Luke 12:47-48
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“Let as many slaves as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.” – 1 Timothy 6:1
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“Exhort slaves to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again; Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in all things.” – Titus 2:9-10
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“Slaves, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.” – 1 Peter 2:18

I took the examples from a webpage that also held this wonderful little tidbit of thinking:

"Here’s a clue that should be obvious to anyone with an IQ over 70: If you have to spend any time explaining why the horrible stuff stated in plain and clear terms in your holy book is wrong by re-explaining it in complicated and enigmatic ways before you can get to the ‘good stuff,’ your holy book needs to be scrapped because, in the wrong hands, it can be lethal. It often is."

I can respect a worldview that has morals that cant base them on anything. People are inconstant with there beliefs all the time.

Now I bolded the most important stuff, before I respond I have to ask, why would rape slavery be wrong? it makes no sense in your own worldview. As I have pointed out many times. I want you to anwser, if evolution is true and atheim than

You cannot give any reason that caging up woman to reproduce and pass on my genes is "wrong", in fact it is survival of the fittest. As hitler and darwin point out,
why not? as men are stronger, lock them up and force them to have sex with us as we please?.

this would be both rape and slavery, yet you cannot give a logical answer assuming evolution is true that these are "wrong".


I was saying that the belief or feeling that atheist get [if atheism is true] that murder,rape,sexism etc are wrong, is nothing more than random chemical reactions in there brain. They have no right to tell another person [random chemical reactions] That thinks murder,rape,sexism are good [hitler]. That that person is wrong to do so. there is no way to now if you, and not the other person have the right chemical reactions. In fact there is no "right" reactions, or good or bad.

As I pointed out before with darwin quotes, my point was why not be racist sexist if evolution is true? You cannot give any reason that caging up woman to reproduce and pass on my genes is "wrong", in fact it is survival of the fittest. As hitler and darwin point out, you would be doing the opposite of evolution and what got us here to follow christian morals and to act like people have unalienable rights, and value.These are biblical ideas that people were created in the image of god.,

But as atheist why would you allow woman to have rights? what makes you think they deserve them? they are just random matter, why not as men are stronger lock them up and force them to have sex with us as we please?. You act like they have value and right etc but this only comes if they are given these right or have unalienable right, such as if they were created in the image of god.



So in the bolded part, it said if you have to do exspling than the bible is dangerous. Besides me seeing hitlers/darwins worldview as dangerous, as rape slavery are not "bad" in that view. Well what if I was to say you have to read the whole bible to understand. Or exspalin it in context, atheist also falsely assume that if something is in bible that means god approves of it. This is 100% false assumption,made clear by bible. That one of the passages comes from judges proves my point of this. the whole book is what happens when there is no rule, government lae,king,god etc. For exsample, look here in a 1v1 debate I have going
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=527050
he brings up much of what you do, probably same site. He and his site are very clever, to say the bible support rape, they record were kidnapped rape has happend in judges 24, yet leave out context and very last verse of chapter. As I had to point out to him.

amazing, look at your very first verse judges 24 leaves out last verse.

Let me say now, all these are taken out of context and falsely applied by your website. I would love to go through any of them with you rape/slavery. both are punishable by death in OT.so lets say you chose your top 2 from each I will respond. . One thing about the atheist he is predictable, you guys all use same passages etc that have been responded to in books like.

Is God a Moral Monster?: Making Sense of the Old Testament God
http://www.amazon.com/Is-God-Moral-M.../dp/0801072751
God Behaving Badly: Is the God of the Old Testament Angry, Sexist and Racist?
http://www.amazon.com/God-Behaving-B.../dp/0830838260





So slavery first
What many fail to understand is that slavery in biblical times was very different from the slavery that was practiced in the past few centuries in many parts of the world. The slavery in the Bible was not based exclusively on race. People were not enslaved because of their nationality or the color of their skin. In Bible times, slavery was more a matter of social status. People sold themselves as slaves when they could not pay their debts or provide for their families. In New Testament times, sometimes doctors, lawyers, and even politicians were slaves of someone else. Some people actually chose to be slaves so as to have all their needs provided for by their masters.

In addition, both the Old and New Testaments condemn the practice of “man-stealing” which is what happened in Africa in the 19th century. Africans were rounded up by slave-hunters, who sold them to slave-traders, who brought them to the New World to work on plantations and farms. This practice is abhorrent to God. In fact, the penalty for such a crime in the Mosaic Law was death: “Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death” (Exodus 21:16). Similarly, in the New Testament, slave-traders are listed among those who are “ungodly and sinful” and are in the same category as those who kill their fathers or mothers, murderers, adulterers and perverts, and liars and perjurers (1 Timothy 1:8-10

If the Those people who were very financially irresponsible, and had accumulated so much debt that they could not possibly pay it off, could request to become the slave of a wealthy individual (Leviticus 25:39; Genesis 47:19).if the wealthy individual agreed, he would pay off all the person’s debts and provide for him, and then the servant would work for the individual for some period of time apparently proportional to the amount of debt (Leviticus 25:50) but not to exceed seven years (Exodus 21:2; Deuteronomy 15:12). When the period of time had expired, the servant was set free, and the wealthy person was required to give him enough start up supplies so that he could begin his own business (Deuteronomy 15:13-14). The Israelite slave was to be treated respectfully (Leviticus 25:43) and was immediately granted freedom if mistreated (Exodus 21:26–27).
It’s really a very generous system. Help a financially irresponsible person to become responsible by (1) paying off his debts and providing for him, (2) training him by having him work for a period of time, (3) giving him sufficient startup capital to start his own business. It’s not quite what most people think, is it? I would suggest that the biblical system is far superior to our modern welfare system.
http://jasonlisle.com/2012/01/23/gods-law-too-harsh/


exodus 21. 5-6 says “But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,’ 6 then his master must take him before the judges.[a] He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.

This is not at all what we think of in America as slavery, Jesus is refereed to as a slave as is the apostle paul, if anyone has a job they work under someone else and for them and can be considered a slave.

A great book in the bible of what OT slavery/servanthood was like read the book of ruth. How servant were treated etc. For example, boaz marries his slave/ ruth who asked him to marry.


Contrary to the claims of many skeptics, the New Testament proclaims that all people are equal in the eyes of God - even slaves:
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:28)
knowing that whatever good thing each one does, this he will receive back from the Lord, whether slave or free. (Ephesians 6:8)
And masters, do the same things to them, and give up threatening, knowing that both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him. (Ephesians 6:9)
a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all. (Colossians 3:11)
The servitude of a Hebrew debt-slave was limited to six years (Ex. 21:2; Deut. 15:12).
When a slave was freed, he was to receive gifts that enabled him to survive economically (Deut. 15:14).

The bible tells owners to take care of “slaves” so they will be as sons, sounds like adoption almost.
21 He who pampers his servant from childhood
######Will have him as a son in the end.
Proverbs 29.21

slaves were to be treated as being hired from year to year,and were not to be ruled over ruthlessly lev 25 53-54

many laws existed to prevent this from happening,many laws to help the poor in lev ex Deuteronomy
Deuteronomy 15 1-18 shows slavery and poverty were to be battled against and not preferred institutions.
all slaves were to be realsed after 6 years and could be bought back at any time if they had the money
people chose to enter into slavery
The OT laws are not gods perfect plan,but for a specific time and people coming from a ancient near eastern culture.Matt 19.8
we cannot apply todays western standards to OT near eastern jews. ot law is not the way god wants, its a way for ancient Israel to live by in a fallen world.
many of the laws are case laws, such as if a man sells his daughter in slavery if two man quarrel etc these are working with infierer conditions in ancient near east.
In dueternomy 15 13-14 it says when a slave is realesed, the more money and wealth the former owner gives to the slave, the more god will bless them dueternomy 15.18.

job 31 13-15 shows servants and masters are no different from each other.
Courts were to rule rightly with jew or gentile Deuteronomy 1 16-17
no physical harm was to be done to a slave or they would be let go ex 21 26-27
if a master kills a slave he is to be put to death ex 21.20
1 chronicles 2 34-35 sheshan gave his daughter in marriage to his Egyptian servant jarha.
Israel was commanded to offer safe havens for foreigners run away slaves
Deuteronomy 23 15-16

1/2 to 2/3 of white immigrants to America in colonial times served as indentured servants or biblical slavery.


Rape

Rape was punsiable by death
Ex 22 10-17 Deuteronomy 22 23-29 2013-14 21 10-14 and page 118-121 is god a moral mosnter paul copan.
rape was punishable by death Deuteronomy 22 25-27

[total relism]

I just love how "atheism" is given a set of attributes, and the notion that one "has to do x" because of "atheist beliefs"(now that's a contradicting term!).

never said that, in fact my whole argument show atheist being inconsistent with atheism..

TR, if you spent as much time taking in what people answer you, as you do surfing christian webpages, I think you would reach much further mentally.


You seem to repeat your own line of thinking no matter what arguments you are met by, that is what I meant when I wrote that I see no chance for progress here.

There are two sides of a debate. You are supposed to make your case, you do a great job at that BTW mate. However, you are also supposed to really try and understand what the people around you say and why.

I am afraid that your way of arguing comes off as rather childish at this point. Kind of like a child with a megaphone, putting his hands to his ears going "lalala" while catching his breath between his tirades.

I love first part, as it fits you great, stop using atheist websites that lie to you. Read my op that you still seem not to be able to grasp.


I agree, as me and others have said, you still dont get the argument I am making. So that is why I must try to repeat, as your responses dont answer what I am saying.


I do fully understand what your saying in all things, I dont disagree with what you say. The only point I care to make is my OP argument.

I can see why you would think that, but it is just I care not to argue the points you make, just my original OP.

[Kadagar_AV]

TR,

You cannot give any reason that caging up woman to reproduce and pass on my genes is "wrong", in fact it is survival of the fittest. As hitler and darwin point out,
why not? as men are stronger, lock them up and force them to have sex with us as we please?.

this would be both rape and slavery, yet you cannot give a logical answer assuming evolution is true that these are "wrong".

Please bear in mind, that just because you havent bothered to look, or havent understood it, it doesnt mean I havent answered it.

So here we go again: Atheist morals in the case of slavery is easy. If everyone tried to enslave everyone else it would be a horrible world.

Rape is wrong because if everyone went around and tried to rape it would be a horrible world.

Remember when I said the basis of atheist morals are: "What would happen if everyone did it?" Well, there you go. Maybe THIS time that message sinks in... Will I be met with a wall of quotes again? Or will you do some thinking on your own?


EDIT: That was directed to your first post. You are aware you can multi-quote, so you don't have to make a new post for each reply?

I understand your OP, I just dont agree on the fundaments your line of reasoning is based on.

[HoreTore]

never said that, in fact my whole argument show atheist being inconsistent with atheism..

And that's the funny part, since you can't be "inconsistent with atheism"... Atheism is nothing, you can't be "inconsistent with nothing".

[Ronin]

Please prove, read this very post hitler says he was atheist, no one said atheist must be like hitler, just they cant say what he did was "wrong".

Hitler talks in Mein Kampf about his religious faith.
he also signed a concordat with the Catholic Church that included the provisioning that his birthday should be celebrated by decree in the German churches every year......his SS troops had religious saying in their equipment...etc..etc....these are not the acts of an atheist.

[HoreTore]

Hitler talks in Mein Kampf about his religious faith.
he also signed a concordat with the Catholic Church that included the provisioning that his birthday should be celebrated by decree in the German churches every year......his SS troops had religious saying in their equipment...etc..etc....these are not the acts of an atheist.

No, but they are the acts of a pragmatic dictator living in a christian cuntry who feels that all means are justified by the end...

[Kadagar_AV]

No, but they are the acts of a pragmatic dictator living in a christian cuntry who feels that all means are justified by the end...

The Nazis IMHO tried to build up a mythology of their own. The Christian influence in this can be argued back and forth forever, and is generally seen as a time sink.

Can the christian church swear itself free completely of Nazi Germany? No, of course not! Plenty of evidence in the other direction.

Can the christian church be accused of the doings of Nazi Germany? No, of course not! Plenty of evidence in the other direction.

So the discussion will always boil down to where on the slippery grey scale you want to place Christianity in Nazi Germany, and that always have more to do with prior political and religious adherence than anything else.

[Kralizec]

"Thou shalt not murder" is not a (uniquely) biblical concept, every society throughout history has had this rule. I would have thought that would be obvious. The Babylonians had written laws against it before the jews even existed. Maybe there were societies that didn't have it, but they would have crumbled so quickly that there wouldn't be historical record of them.

I do not understand why you're bothering with slavery at all in your argument. Yes, slavery in ancient times was different from the kind practiced by Europeans and Americans in early modern times. I don't think anybody here said otherwise, in fact I think that it's more or less common knowledge on this forum. It's still slavery regardless.
As for the "atheists don't have any basis on which they can condemn slavery" argument - I'll get to that later, but now I'll just point out that christians have used their religion to both justify and later on condemn it. Of course you might respond by saying that the christians who held African slaves were bad christians who didn't follow God's will or whatever. Which sort of makes an objective moral standard like "Will of God" kind of useless, because evidently the content is a matter of subjective opinion.

Various European philosophers have put forward their ideas of the "social contract" which gives a plausible explanation as to why people have rules and bother following them. Hobbes is my personal favourite, but there's also Locke, Rousseau etc.

And there's the evolutionary aspect - like you said, atheists generally see thoughts and emotions as nothing more than complicated electrochemical reactions. Even in the total absence of religion people would still follow social rules and their "conscience" because humans are built like that. Some christians, like you, think that atheists can turn into killers overnight because they have no rational reason to follow the dictates of their consicence. But it doesn't work like that - knowing that empathy and conscience are biological functions doesn't make them any less potent. Sure, there are sociopaths, but that's a condition not caused by voluntary choice.

[HoreTore]

The Nazis IMHO tried to build up a mythology of their own. The Christian influence in this can be argued back and forth forever, and is generally seen as a time sink.

There was the völkisch movement, with the Thule Society closest to the nazi party, but that was way back in the early days of Hitler and it probably had zero real influence. Then you had Himmlers attempt to build an Odin-cult, which Hitler strongly opposed, denounced and ridiculed.

[Kadagar_AV]

There was the völkisch movement, with the Thule Society closest to the nazi party, but that was way back in the early days of Hitler and it probably had zero real influence. Then you had Himmlers attempt to build an Odin-cult, which Hitler strongly opposed, denounced and ridiculed.

I think the Odin cult was frikkin awesome!! Historical comedy value extraordinaire....

[HoreTore]

I think the Odin cult was frikkin awesome!! Historical comedy value extraordinaire....

Then you should definitely read up on the völkisch movement. It has everything, really: jewhate, racial superiority, aliens, master races living beneath Himalaya, magical monks, the list goes on!

Terje Emberland is a norwegian academic who has written a few books on the subject(and related subjects). He has also contributed to a few anthologies and such, I'm sure you can find some with either him or related authors in Sweden too..

[Ronin]

No, but they are the acts of a pragmatic dictator living in a christian cuntry who feels that all means are justified by the end...

if your point is that he was only using Christianity as a way to attain and maintain power........that's kinda like saying water is wet........that's what religions do.

[Kadagar_AV]

I think I prefer to live in an atheistic moral world, than a Christian moral world.

First of all, as other posters also have pointed out, the "absolute" morals of Christianity are absolute, but what absolutes these consist of change from person to person, church to church, time to time.

However, someone having an ABSOLUTE morale to rely on can more easily be duped into really horrible actions against other humans, as the "others", by not adhering to the same morals, by definition are ABSOLUTEly wrong / corrupt. Just makes demonizing other human categories that much easier.



I prefer to live in a world where morals are not set. I believe it's wrong to kill, but it doesn't mean I have never killed, or will never kill. Absolutely NONE of my morals are absolute.

Sure, some things I would have to draw up absolutely ridiculous-over-the-top-Hollywood-scenarious to justify.... rape as an example...

I see it very hard imagining a situation where I would deem it morally OK to rape another person... Buuuuut... Say a sinister disease killed all of humanity except me and two girls. One of these girls have terrible mental issues from all that has happened, and absolutely refuses giving birth...

Would I rape her and force a birth to try and save the human race? Hard to say as I haven't been in that situation, and I don't see the need to speculate about it as I probably wont ever get there either.

However, it goes to show that my morals on rape or anything else aren't absolute by any means.

[rvg]

Don't have much to add to this thread other than to say that the Ignore list is a great feature.

[HoreTore]

if your point is that he was only using Christianity as a way to attain and maintain power........that's kinda like saying water is wet........that's what religions do.

No, that's not quite what I'm saying.

What I was saying is more along the lines of "Germany contained a bunch of christians, mass converting them away from christianity would be impossible within the timeframe, so he had to make do".

[Kadagar_AV]

No, that's not quite what I'm saying.

What I was saying is more along the lines of "Germany contained a bunch of christians, mass converting them away from christianity would be impossible within the timeframe, so he had to make do".

Sums it up quite nicely.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Don't have much to add to this thread other than to say that the Ignore list is a great feature.

But then you would miss out on all the fun.

Has anybody actually checked the link TR gave of himself in another debate.

I've only glanced at it but it appears to be discussion of whether radical Christians or radical environmentalists are more likely to attept to genocide humanity.

Who is the biggest danger in this very serious and relevant topic? I don't know, but I can't wait to find out...

[HoreTore]

But then you would miss out on all the fun.

Has anybody actually checked the link TR gave of himself in another debate.

I've only glanced at it but it appears to be discussion of whether radical Christians or radical environmentalists are more likely to attept to genocide humanity.

Who is the biggest danger in this very serious and relevant topic? I don't know, but I can't wait to find out...

I have always been extremely fascinated by the right-wing christian islamophobia, it's way more fun than the hooligan islamophobia of edl, for example.

The only problem is that such sites tend to be riddled with bible verses, of which I have neither knowledge nor any intent of reading. They may be more fun for you than me, Rhy. I have seen some non-bible heavy sites though, and they've been a blast.

Edit: dang it, I misread you Rhy, I thought you were referring to the links he gave in his OP...

Edit2: checked out the twc-link. Stopped reading after seeing the second posters nick was "Justicar". That's just soooo July 2011....

[total relism]

And that's the funny part, since you can't be "inconsistent with atheism"... Atheism is nothing, you can't be "inconsistent with nothing".

really, so say if a atheist were to believe in god? or that human have value, things like right to life, killing is bad etc etc, as hitler and darwin point out, these things are inconstant with evolution/atheism. I have shown over and over on this thread.

Hitler talks in Mein Kampf about his religious faith.
he also signed a concordat with the Catholic Church that included the provisioning that his birthday should be celebrated by decree in the German churches every year......his SS troops had religious saying in their equipment...etc..etc....these are not the acts of an atheist.

Here is hitler in mein kampf

“ He who does not wish to fight in this world, where permanent struggle is the law of life, has not the right to exist”.
Hitler A Mein Kampf, english translation by James Murphy, 1939 Fredonia Classics, New York, p266 2003

“The stronger must dominate and not mate with the weaker, which would signify the sacrafice of its own higher nature. Only the born weakling can look upon this principle as cruel,and if he does so it is mearly because he is of a feebler nature and narrower mind for if such a law did not direct the process of evolution
then the higher development of organic life would not be conceivable at all”.
Hitler A Mein Kampf, english translation by James Murphy, 1939 Fredonia Classics, New York, p262 2003

“if nature does not wish that weaker individuals should mate with the stronger, she wishes even less that a superior race should intermingle with an inferior one. Because in such a case all her efforts, throughout hundreds of thousands of years, to establish an evolutionary higher stage of being may thus be rendered futile.”
Hitler A Mein Kampf, english translation by James Murphy, 1939 Fredonia Classics, New York, p263 2003

Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:

National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)


14th October, 1941, midday:

The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)


hitler and the church were opposed to each other. His words, and common sense.

Please provide evidence of the ss using christian sayings etc.

I do not doubt,that hitler forced his b-day to be celebrated in churches,what does this have to do with christianity or the bible?.

Hitler had to convice germany of his beliefs he did so throgh propaganda, the leading opnents of his beliefs was the church in germany so he changed the bible and took over the church to fit his beliefs.

Heschel, S., The Aryan Jesus: Christian Theologians and the Bible in Nazi Germany, Princeton University press, USA, 2008


Liberal German theologians had taught since the early 1900s that Galilee was supposedly populated by racially Aryan Gentiles in the 8th century BC following the Assyrian conquest of Israel, thereby opposing Jesus’ identity as a Jew (p. 57).
In his own book, Jesus the Galilean, Grundmann advocated that Mary was not a Jew, and Jesus had an illegitimate father: a Roman soldier named Panther (or Panthera) (p. 155). Ironically, this is an ancient libel from Celsus and anti-Christian Jews attacking Jesus’ legitimacy (“ben Panthera/Pandera”). However, the Gospel was clearly presented in Jesus’ discussion with Nicodemus, especially in John 3:16.
By the end of 1941, 200,000 copies of Die Botschaft Gottes had been sold or distributed to members of the German Christians movement, including soldiers (p. 111). Some pastors and scholars in the Confessing Church wrote pamphlets or spoke against it. After the War, most copies were destroyed, with only two or three still known to exist.
A catechism for the times

In 1941, the Institute was involved in producing Germans with God: a German Catechism.5 “It omitted traditional doctrinal positions regarding miracles, virgin birth, incarnation, resurrection, and so forth, in favor of positioning Jesus as a human being who struggled on behalf of God and died not only as a martyr, but also a ‘victor’ on the cross, despite being a victim of the Jews” (pp. 126–27).

It (not the ‘Nazi Bible’, as has been reported) contained 12 revised Commandments in place of the OT ten:
1. Honor God and believe in him wholeheartedly.
2. Seek out the peace of God.
3. Avoid all hypocrisy.
4. Holy is your health and life.
5. Holy is your well-being and honor.
6. Holy is your truth and fidelity.
7. Honor your father and mother—your children are your aid and your example.
8. Keep the blood pure and the marriage holy.
9. Maintain and multiply the heritage of your forefathers.
10. Be ready to help and forgive.
11. Honor your Führer and master.
12. Joyously serve the people with work and sacrifice.
The Institute’s perverse attempt to marry Christianity to Nazism was not reciprocated by the Nazis.

Perhaps divine prohibitions of murder, theft, and covetousness were deemed inappropriate for a ‘survival-of-the-fittest’ ideology that was instrumental in the then ongoing pillage of Europe.

The Nazis IMHO tried to build up a mythology of their own. The Christian influence in this can be argued back and forth forever, and is generally seen as a time sink.

Can the christian church swear itself free completely of Nazi Germany? No, of course not! Plenty of evidence in the other direction.

Can the christian church be accused of the doings of Nazi Germany? No, of course not! Plenty of evidence in the other direction.

So the discussion will always boil down to where on the slippery grey scale you want to place Christianity in Nazi Germany, and that always have more to do with prior political and religious adherence than anything else.

I want to respond to bolded, please read all my post and the above. Hitler was against the church/ the church was against hitler.

before the jews even existed. Maybe there were societies that didn't have it, but they would have crumbled so quickly that there wouldn't be historical record of them.

I do not understand why you're bothering with slavery at all in your argument. Yes, slavery in ancient times was different from the kind practiced by Europeans and Americans in early modern times. I don't think anybody here said otherwise, in fact I think that it's more or less common knowledge on this forum. It's still slavery regardless.


christians have used their religion to both justify and later on condemn it. Of course you might respond by saying that the christians who held African slaves were bad christians who didn't follow God's will or whatever. Which sort of makes an objective moral standard like "Will of God" kind of useless, because evidently the content is a matter of subjective opinion.


And there's the evolutionary aspect - like you said, atheists generally see thoughts and emotions as nothing more than complicated electrochemical reactions. Even in the total absence of religion people would still follow social rules and their "conscience" because humans are built like that. Some christians, like you, think that atheists can turn into killers overnight because they have no rational reason to follow the dictates of their consicence. But it doesn't work like that - knowing that empathy and conscience are biological functions doesn't make them any less potent. Sure, there are sociopaths, but that's a condition not caused by voluntary choice.

if your point is that he was only using Christianity as a way to attain and maintain power........that's kinda like saying water is wet........that's what religions do.

I never said any society never had morals, we were all created by a moral god as moral beings, I said atheist are being inconstant saying there is such a thing as absolute morals. Few societies have been based on atheism, all recent. Hitler,stalin,pol pot etc all murdered millions.


In fact a atheist brought it up as if the bible condoned slavery. I showed very diffident.


Not at all, christian doing what bible says, is constant with bible. Bible never says anything about justifying what americans/europeans/and all other races who enslave people. By the way, first real slave in america, guess who, a black man enslaving another black man.


Thank you for recanizing the delima of atheist morality. You in the end call some
"Sure, there are sociopaths, but that's a condition not caused by voluntary choice"

but what makes them "sociopaths"? how do you now your not the "sociopaths".

In fact you only feel ,murder,rape etc are wrong because the random chemical reactions in your brain make you feel that way. Not because it truly is right or wrong. I may be like hitler and think murdering is good, what makes your random chemical reactions correct and mine wrong?.They have no right to tell another person [random chemical reactions] That thinks murder,rape,sexism are good [hitler]. That that person is wrong to do so. there is no way to now if you, and not the other person have the right chemical reactions. In fact there is no "right" reactions, or good or bad.


You cannot give any reason that caging up woman to reproduce and pass on my genes is "wrong", in fact it is survival of the fittest. As hitler and darwin point out, you would be doing the opposite of evolution and what got us here to follow christian morals and to act like people have unalienable rights, and value.These are biblical ideas that people were created in the image of god.,

[Kadagar_AV]

Wrote stuff

I think you are more interested in a monologue than a dialogue... You are very good at copying and pasting, you have already showed us that.

Could you now show us you have the mental ability to understand those things you copied and pasted? We have yet to see you write much / anything of your own, you always run away and hide behind a wall of text.

Stand up for what you believe in, and express it mate. You wont get any respect parroting others. In fact, you will only be met with ridicule.

If on top of it you would show that you have understood some of OUR arguments as well, it would be absolutely golden.



EDIT: The opening statement of your last post though:

really, so say if a atheist were to believe in god?

... kind of makes me go
... and out

[total relism]

if your point is that he was only using Christianity as a way to attain and maintain power........that's kinda like saying water is wet........that's what religions do.

I thought that was the governments position, in fact they like to control religion, keep it in the church walls.

I think I prefer to live in an atheistic moral world, than a Christian moral world.

First of all, as other posters also have pointed out, the "absolute" morals of Christianity are absolute, but what absolutes these consist of change from person to person, church to church, time to time.

However, someone having an ABSOLUTE morale to rely on can more easily be duped into really horrible actions against other humans, as the "others", by not adhering to the same morals, by definition are ABSOLUTEly wrong / corrupt. Just makes demonizing other human categories that much easier.



I prefer to live in a world where morals are not set. I believe it's wrong to kill, but it doesn't mean I have never killed, or will never kill. Absolutely NONE of my morals are absolute.

Sure, some things I would have to draw up absolutely ridiculous-over-the-top-Hollywood-scenarious to justify.... rape as an example...

I see it very hard imagining a situation where I would deem it morally OK to rape another person... Buuuuut... Say a sinister disease killed all of humanity except me and two girls. One of these girls have terrible mental issues from all that has happened, and absolutely refuses giving birth...

Would I rape her and force a birth to try and save the human race? Hard to say as I haven't been in that situation, and I don't see the need to speculate about it as I probably wont ever get there either.

However, it goes to show that my morals on rape or anything else aren't absolute by any means.

I agree in alot of parts, party all the time sex whenever you want, multiple partners etc who wants to be "good". That look at a woman lustfully is same as adultery just does not work for me well. But than again its not a dream world it is reality. Course if I was a jew in a oven i might want a moral society based on morals to live in.



I would say what is absolute is bible, not what someone says, or what some church says.


How contradictory, you say first, that Christians could do horrible things because of absolute morals like thou shall not kill. Than say as a atheist without absolute morals "really horrible actions against other humans". This demands that "bad" actions murder rape etc are absolutely wrong.. Meanwhile, if there are no absolute morals as hitler/darwin point out, than there is no reason to commit such crimes in the first place.

I have always been extremely fascinated by the right-wing christian islamophobia, it's way more fun than the hooligan islamophobia of edl, for example.

The only problem is that such sites tend to be riddled with bible verses, of which I have neither knowledge nor any intent of reading. They may be more fun for you than me, Rhy. I have seen some non-bible heavy sites though, and they've been a blast.

Edit: dang it, I misread you Rhy, I thought you were referring to the links he gave in his OP...

Edit2: checked out the twc-link. Stopped reading after seeing the second posters nick was "Justicar". That's just soooo July 2011....

I am always fascinated by liberal anti christian, politically correct, anti conservatives. They all seem to be on total war forums lol. I fully am concerned with islam spreading, fully admit to it. Would you car to join we in a thread, should westerners be concerned with the spread of islam.? I would love to hear your point of view on why we should not fear that.

Who is the bias one? scared of bible verse?.

18 “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.#
john 15 18-19

18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
1 Corinthians 1.18

But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him
1 Corinthians 2 .14

[total relism]

I think you are more interested in a monologue than a dialogue... You are very good at copying and pasting, you have already showed us that.

Could you now show us you have the mental ability to understand those things you copied and pasted? We have yet to see you write much / anything of your own, you always run away and hide behind a wall of text.

Stand up for what you believe in, and express it mate. You wont get any respect parroting others. In fact, you will only be met with ridicule.

If on top of it you would show that you have understood some of OUR arguments as well, it would be absolutely golden.

As shown, you have not understood my argument for many pages. When I quote hitler to back up hitlers beliefs. I care not you see that as copy paste.It to me is better than what all others are doing, making claims with no support. i have written everything on my own, besides quotes or facts or references.Do you care to back up any claim you make with anything besides what you believe to be true.? So when people claim hitler was christian, I dont exspalin why I think he wasn't I let him, meanwhile those that claim he was, give no support for it. As far as my other point, I have typed about a dozen diffident ways. Are you not also the one who copied a wall of text of a atheist website.

[HoreTore]

really, so say if a atheist were to believe in god? or that human have value, things like right to life, killing is bad etc etc, as hitler and darwin point out, these things are inconstant with evolution/atheism. I have shown over and over on this thread.

"Atheism" simply means the denial of the existence of a divine being. There is absolutely nothing more to it. There's no way to base anything at all on atheism, since it doesn't contain anything.

There are, however, an abundance of philosophies one can be, and will be, influenced by, from both religious and non-religious philosophers. Social darwinism is one such philosophy, but it is not one I subscribe to, obviously. And I believe you are confusing "darwinism", which is simply an explanation of what has happened in nature during the past few million years, and "social darwinism", which is the idea that the former is a good model for society to follow(most famously used by the nazis of course).

You have "shown" a grand total of absolutely nothing in this thread, I might add. All you have done is post long, ranting and quite frankly utterly boring copy/pasted text. Are you seriously expecting anyone to read posts that repeats rubbish text like "The Jeffrey Dahmer DVD Documentary" over and over?

Put your thoughts in proper form, then someone might be interested in reading them. Heck, someone might even bother engaging you in a discussion!

Who is the bias one? scared of bible verse?

Scared of bible verses...? That makes no sense whatsoever. I am unfamiliar with the bible, and I'm generally completely uninterested in what it says. It also does not hold any water as an argument to me, given that I am an non-believer.

I guess it would be comparable to a market-liberal reading a wall of text full of quotes from The Capital.

But in no way do I attempt to downplay the fact that I believe the right-wing christian resistance to Islam to be utter garbage, completely devoid of logic and generally unintelligent. That, however, also means that it has a great potential for being humerous to people like me!

[Kadagar_AV]

As shown, you have not understood my argument for many pages. When I quote hitler to back up hitlers beliefs. I care not you see that as copy paste.It to me is better than what all others are doing, making claims with no support. i have written everything on my own, besides quotes or facts or references.Do you care to back up any claim you make with anything besides what you believe to be true.? So when people claim hitler was christian, I dont exspalin why I think he wasn't I let him, meanwhile those that claim he was, give no support for it. As far as my other point, I have typed about a dozen diffident ways. Are you not also the one who copied a wall of text of a atheist website.

I have read your cherry picked quotes on Hitler, yes.

I have also based a university C-thesis on him when I read history. All in all I have read maybe 10 or so books solely about him, and another 100 or so books about Nazi Germany at large. Aside from that I subscribe to not one but two historical magazines, and tend to watch historical documentaries more than anything else. This aside, I am Austrian, and have had a vested interest in Museums, so I think I have been to most of the bigger ones in Europe.

So no, your cherry picked quotes just aren't very impressive. Actually, some of the ones you use to "strenghten" your case makes me wonder about your reading comprehension. Or maybe you are just lazy and throw them in from a ready list of: "Debate atheists for dummies".

[Strike For The South]

All these Hitler quotes are so much more applicable to the cause celebre of the time, Eugenics

It's not some type of atheism bible

Dhamer is a severely mentally ill person. EMPHASIS ON ILL

[ajaxfetish]

As shown, you have not understood my argument for many pages.

As claimed. Claiming is not the same thing as showing.

really, so say if a atheist were to believe in god? or that human have value, things like right to life, killing is bad etc etc, as hitler and darwin point out, these things are inconstant with evolution/atheism. I have shown over and over on this thread.

HoreTore overstated his position. Atheism is not 'nothing.' There is one definite element to it, which is not believing in God. So the first point (an atheist believing in God) is indeed inconsistent with atheism. Thinking humans have value, or a right to life, or that killing is bad, etc. are not inconsistent with atheism, however, as atheism per se has nothing to say about them.

Ajax

[total relism]

"Atheism" simply means the denial of the existence of a divine being. There is absolutely nothing more to it. There's no way to base anything at all on atheism, since it doesn't contain anything.

There are, however, an abundance of philosophies one can be, and will be, influenced by, from both religious and non-religious philosophers. Social darwinism is one such philosophy, but it is not one I subscribe to, obviously. And I believe you are confusing "darwinism", which is simply an explanation of what has happened in nature during the past few million years, and "social darwinism", which is the idea that the former is a good model for society to follow(most famously used by the nazis of course).

You have "shown" a grand total of absolutely nothing in this thread, I might add. All you have done is post long, ranting and quite frankly utterly boring copy/pasted text. Are you seriously expecting anyone to read posts that repeats rubbish text like "The Jeffrey Dahmer DVD Documentary" over and over?

Put your thoughts in proper form, then someone might be interested in reading them. Heck, someone might even bother engaging you in a discussion!


Scared of bible verses...? That makes no sense whatsoever. I am unfamiliar with the bible, and I'm generally completely uninterested in what it says. It also does not hold any water as an argument to me, given that I am an non-believer.

I guess it would be comparable to a market-liberal reading a wall of text full of quotes from The Capital.

But in no way do I attempt to downplay the fact that I believe the right-wing christian resistance to Islam to be utter garbage, completely devoid of logic and generally unintelligent. That, however, also means that it has a great potential for being humerous to people like me!

It contains belief in no god, so no absolute right and wrong, no absolute moral right and wrongs. It does say we are random chemicals in our brain, evolved from dirt. I dont care to engage with someone who wont take time to read what i wrote. Please read OP that is not that long, than we can talk deal.


As far as the highlighted part, is there a fight club in the org? or are you on twc? I would love a 1v1 with you on this subject. Maybe titled, should non Muslims fear the spread of Islam. If not to either, I do have a back up plan, I feel political correctness has led you astray. As I am sure you believe "right wing" christians have led me astray. Would you agree to a 1v1 with me? If you are not on twc, you should, they have great debate section.

I have read your cherry picked quotes on Hitler, yes.

I have also based a university C-thesis on him when I read history. All in all I have read maybe 10 or so books solely about him, and another 100 or so books about Nazi Germany at large. Aside from that I subscribe to not one but two historical magazines, and tend to watch historical documentaries more than anything else. This aside, I am Austrian, and have had a vested interest in Museums, so I think I have been to most of the bigger ones in Europe.

So no, your cherry picked quotes just aren't very impressive. Actually, some of the ones you use to "strenghten" your case makes me wonder about your reading comprehension. Or maybe you are just lazy and throw them in from a ready list of: "Debate atheists for dummies".

So I will take that as what I said all along, noone will be able to support the claim hitler was a christian.

This is a logical fallacie your trying here. Argument from authority I believe it is.

As claimed. Claiming is not the same thing as showing.

HoreTore overstated his position. Atheism is not 'nothing.' There is one definite element to it, which is not believing in God. So the first point (an atheist believing in God) is indeed inconsistent with atheism. Thinking humans have value, or a right to life, or that killing is bad, etc. are not inconsistent with atheism, however, as atheism per se has nothing to say about them.

Ajax

You misunderstanding and replying to something I say on first post, that I am not trying to argue, counts as misunderstanding.

Second part, ok but as far as morals for atheist go it very much disregards moral absolutes. As I said, you cant say what hitler did is morally wrong, you may feel that way, but you have no grounds or authority to base it on.

[HoreTore]

It contains belief in no god,

I'm stopping you here, because this is the only part of post which is somewhat correct.

Atheism "contains"(a better word would be "describes") a belief in no god for some. For others, it "contains"(describes) a simple lack of belief in anything. Those two sentences may seem similar, but one is active and one is passive, which is quite a big difference.

so no absolute right and wrong, no absolute moral right and wrongs. It does say we are random chemicals in our brain, evolved from dirt. I dont care to engage with someone who wont take time to read what i wrote. Please read OP that is not that long, than we can talk deal.

....and this part of your post is just nonsense.

[total relism]

read OP than we can talk.