French special forces operation foiled by villagers

[Kadagar_AV]

I must correct an embarrassing mistake: the figure for Albania I fiund was old pre-financial crisis. I can't find a proper up-to-date number, but from what I gather the roma figure is higher than the general population today.

Still, small matter when the topic is Der Evige Juden Roma.

Goodwin. You lost.

[Sarmatian]

I must correct an embarrassing mistake: the figure for Albania I fiund was old pre-financial crisis. I can't find a proper up-to-date number, but from what I gather the roma figure is higher than the general population today.

Still, small matter when the topic is Der Evige Juden Roma.

And that's for those who are working.

What you're gonna do with the majority who doesn't have an address or ID, basically don't appear in the system and aren't taken into account?

Try harder, please.

[HoreTore]

Goodwin. You lost.

Goodwin implies something will happen, it's not about winning or loosing Nazi comparison are always fun. And I proved Goodwin true several posts ago, btw...

Anyway, back to Albania.

Albania is very relevant. You have population group A, which has employment figure F in country P, and employment figure G in country Q. If F is much higher than G, the conclusion you can draw is not that A is at fault(being the same), but rather that Q is run by monkeys.

I don't presuppose to know the inns and outs of Albania, but for one thing they haven't established blackshirt militias to hunt down and best up random romas. Like we see the monkeys running country Q has done.

[Sarmatian]

I don't presuppose to know the inns and outs of Albania, but for one thing they haven't established blackshirt militias to hunt down and best up random romas. Like we see the monkeys running country Q has done.

Que?

What are you smoking and why aren't you sharing?

[HoreTore]

Que?

What are you smoking and why aren't you sharing?

Hungary's Jobbik first and foremost, of course.

[Sarmatian]

Hungary's Jobbik first and foremost, of course.

Then divert your bashing and barbarism comparison from Balkans to Central Europe please.

From now on rule No.1 on Balkan bashing - it has to be in the Balkans for you to bash it, thank you.

[Myth]

Goodwin implies something will happen, it's not about winning or loosing Nazi comparison are always fun. And I proved Goodwin true several posts ago, btw...

Anyway, back to Albania.

Albania is very relevant. You have population group A, which has employment figure F in country P, and employment figure G in country Q. If F is much higher than G, the conclusion you can draw is not that A is at fault(being the same), but rather that Q is run by monkeys.

I don't presuppose to know the inns and outs of Albania, but for one thing they haven't established blackshirt militias to hunt down and best up random romas. Like we see the monkeys running country Q has done.

Let's talk facts and not turn this into theoretic physics. Albania is a Muslim country, one which is being used as a gateway for Muslim financial aid to furhter the cause of Islam in Europe. This is their foothold in the lands of the crusaders. I personally don't have anything against Islam, but if you don't know about Albania don't bring it up. They get financial injections from wealthy middle eastern countries, as well as other influences. The roma there are just as dirty and poor as in other countries, but they are not prosecuted because they are willing to convert to Islam so long as it provides benefits, we have the same thing here.

In the Balkans we don't have organized gangs that beat up gypsies this is bullshit. Either state your sources or stop making shit up, or worse - repeating what you herd on the news like a brainwashed parrot. Also, if you deem us so uncivilized perhaps you should look up the protests in Hungary from a couple of months ago or Sarkozy's speech and actions from the spring of this year.

[Myth]

Hungary's Jobbik first and foremost, of course.

I actually went to Hungary in August. Have you been there or is your information from reliable sources like BBC news and CNN?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Norway is notorious for being racist - that's how Breivic was able to wander around Oslo with an automatic weapon wearing body armour and no ID or uniform, because the police were looking for a darky.

[HoreTore]

Then divert your bashing and barbarism comparison from Balkans to Central Europe please.

From now on rule No.1 on Balkan bashing - it has to be in the Balkans for you to bash it, thank you.

Bah, I have my own World Map, thankyouverymuch. It goes something like this:

Everything below Fritzl, to the west of the russkiecommies and above the beach boys and couchland = Balkanistan.

And it should be rather obvious that the topic is "roma treatment". "Balkan government incompetence", while an interesting topic, isn't the main one...

Albania is a Muslim country, one which is being used as a gateway for Muslim financial aid to furhter the cause of Islam in Europe.

Ahahahahahahahahaaaa.....

[rvg]

Ahahahahahahahahaaaa.....

Well, technically it is muslim. Technically.

[Kralizec]

- Roma children in Bulgaria often end up in schools with near 100% Roma children (due to regional districting)
- these schools tend to be of inferior quality
- underperforming Roma children are very often sent to special schools for learning disabilities etc., ignoring that they underperform because of the crappy regular schools

I'm not saying that the Roma are blameless (I think the prejudices, sadly, have a firm basis in reality) but from the looks of it Bulgaria isn't trying very hard on fixing it, having decided beforehand that it's pointless and futile.

I agree, but for 300,000 Roma, that's one million policemen. In a country of 8 million people.

Not all of those 300,000 would be kids obviously. I imagine that it would only take extensive police/government action in the first years.

There aren't many Roma in the Netherlands (and no camps as far as I'm aware) but we do have an ethnic Dutch subculture which evolved from 19th century travelers and still lives in camps. The issues surrounding these people aren't nearly as serious as with the Roma, but comparable in some ways. For instance, for years our tax agency had a deal with many of these camps that the inhabitants would pay a lump sum to buy off their tax duties, which amounted to a significant writeoff. The reasoning was that collecting all due taxes would be met with so much resistance, requiring so much police assistance that this compromise was more cost-efficient.

In my view this was a bad move because
1) the law should be equal for all, even if it's not cost-efficient. They should have collected all taxes out of sheer principle even if it didn't return a positive net result
2) I think it's unwise in the long term. Making this compromise imprints the idea on these people the idea that defying the authorities will pay off. If the government would just collect the taxes they'd make a net loss for the first couple of years, but the inhabitants would realize that it's no use resisting so much and be more cooperative eventually.

There also was a public perception that the police was reluctant to go into these camps if the crime wasn't serious enough - allthough the last few years that seems to have changed somewhat.

I can show you a video documentary where anonymous cops are admitting that arrests are impossible in the Roma ghettoes. They come out in droves of 50-100 and threaten and shove the cops away.

And I think the same would apply here. Obedience to the law should not be negotiable and behaviour like this should be forced out of them through sheer attrition. If you need dozens of cops to arrest a single Roma suspect, then do so - deciding that it's not worth the hassle merely strenghtens them in their conviction that they can get away with anything as long as they threaten with enough trouble. I realize that this would require some heavy-handed tactics but it goes without saying that unprovoked police brutality against Roma won't do any good. Avoiding the confrontation is merely extending the status quo and means they'll never learn to respect the law.

[Myth]

Bah, I have my own World Map, thankyouverymuch. It goes something like this:

Everything below Fritzl, to the west of the russkiecommies and above the beach boys and couchland = Balkanistan.

And it should be rather obvious that the topic is "roma treatment". "Balkan government incompetence", while an interesting topic, isn't the main one...



Ahahahahahahahahaaaa.....

OK now after reading your insulting generalizations about half of Europe I officially brand you a troll who is incapable of partaking in a logical argument. I won't be replying to your posts in this thread any more.

[HoreTore]

When the police force thinks of roma as üntermenchen, one needs to use more caution when ordering "heavy handed" action.

[HoreTore]

OK now after reading your insulting generalizations about half of Europe I officially brand you a troll who is incapable of partaking in a logical argument. I won't be replying to your posts in this thread any more.

When statements like "Albania is a gateway to further Islam in Europe" is considered reasoned and logical, I start taking things less serious.

Oh, and come on: insulting generalizations? Cry me a river. Take a short look at your own filth, please.

[Kadagar_AV]

When the police force thinks of roma as üntermenchen, one needs to use more caution when ordering "heavy handed" action.

what's üntermenchen? Just because it's German you don't have to stick a ¨ on every u. Goodwin again btw. Just saying...

[Myth]

rvg Albania is a Muslim country, though there are still a number of orthodox citizens there. But the tide has swung so far as that the financing and decisions come from pro-Muslim or downright Muslim sources. I don't particularly mind it and it's not like we don't have another Muslim country in Europe, numbering in 90 million population... But facts are facts. So are the Roma converting to Islam and even changing their self-proclaimed ethnicity when it suits them.

A good number here in Bulgaria define themselves as Turks because there is a certain political party that gives them benefits if they do.

Regarding the lawlessness of the ghettos:
http://vbox7.com/play:ad1e3e1577&r=emb

This is an attempt to remove the illegal structures erected on municipal territory. The resident Roma population is only 300 people. The only guy that got hit went and attacked the cop first, and still nothing major happened. Compare it to the cops beating teenage football fans bloody, or to the fine law enforcement in Spain and Greece who maul their own countrymen like good little robots.

The Roma here do more than build housing without permits and without owning the land. They cut down century old forests to sell the timber, and go in numbers of 200 where the park rangers are two, maximum three people. Last year one park ranger got nearly killed with axes by poaching gypsies who wanted to cut timber in a national park.

When the cops go they are timid little girls because the governemnt tells them to leave the gypsies alone. A national policy of inaction and weak rule is the culprit, but again, pressure from foreign countries run by fops who like to babble about rights and integration certainly plays a role.

[Sarmatian]

- Roma children in Bulgaria often end up in schools with near 100% Roma children (due to regional districting)
- these schools tend to be of inferior quality
- underperforming Roma children are very often sent to special schools for learning disabilities etc., ignoring that they underperform because of the crappy regular schools

I'm not saying that the Roma are blameless (I think the prejudices, sadly, have a firm basis in reality) but from the looks of it Bulgaria isn't trying very hard on fixing it, having decided beforehand that it's pointless and futile.



Not all of those 300,000 would be kids obviously. I imagine that it would only take extensive police/government action in the first years.

There aren't many Roma in the Netherlands (and no camps as far as I'm aware) but we do have an ethnic Dutch subculture which evolved from 19th century travelers and still lives in camps. The issues surrounding these people aren't nearly as serious as with the Roma, but comparable in some ways. For instance, for years our tax agency had a deal with many of these camps that the inhabitants would pay a lump sum to buy off their tax duties, which amounted to a significant writeoff. The reasoning was that collecting all due taxes would be met with so much resistance, requiring so much police assistance that this compromise was more cost-efficient.

In my view this was a bad move because
1) the law should be equal for all, even if it's not cost-efficient. They should have collected all taxes out of sheer principle even if it didn't return a positive net result
2) I think it's unwise in the long term. Making this compromise imprints the idea on these people the idea that defying the authorities will pay off. If the government would just collect the taxes they'd make a net loss for the first couple of years, but the inhabitants would realize that it's no use resisting so much and be more cooperative eventually.

There also was a public perception that the police was reluctant to go into these camps if the crime wasn't serious enough - allthough the last few years that seems to have changed somewhat.



And I think the same would apply here. Obedience to the law should not be negotiable and behaviour like this should be forced out of them through sheer attrition. If you need dozens of cops to arrest a single Roma suspect, then do so - deciding that it's not worth the hassle merely strenghtens them in their conviction that they can get away with anything as long as they threaten with enough trouble. I realize that this would require some heavy-handed tactics but it goes without saying that unprovoked police brutality against Roma won't do any good. Avoiding the confrontation is merely extending the status quo and means they'll never learn to respect the law.

Unfortunately, this is common stance for someone who is unfamiliar with the situation - thinking that applying usual methods will work. Those methods have already been tried and they don't work. Actually, they do, but at a snail's pace. To make things move quicker, a gargantuan effort would be required and that would be hard even for much richer countries. Then, of course, there's a question of fairness - how do you justify spending a 100$ per child in one case and 1$ per child in other case?

Furthermore, even if you provide that, how do you keep them in one place for it to have effect? You can't build a new school every time they move and forcefully relocate teachers. What can you do? Build free houses for them? There simply isn't enough money, and even if it was, why should Roma get it? There are refugees from Bosnia and Croatia who still have housing issues and they have actually been paying taxes for the last few decades. There are other underpriviliged people and they would have just as much right to those houses as Romas.

When you enroll them in school with other kids, they tend to fall behind quickly simply because they are just noticeably less knowledgeable than other kids, even at such young age. You can't hold the rest of the class back for one child. Other issue is that they often don't speak the language well, or even at all sometimes, and you can't even provide teachers because every "charda" (rough translation camp) of few hundred people have their own dialect, and those dialects are mutually unintelligible. There's no Roma language, just thousands of dialects with no grammar or rules.

It's very hard to help someone who doesn't want to be helped.

[Tuuvi]

On the other hand - when you have 30 ethnic groups the group you belong to becomes less important, because it's smaller.

Anyway - you classify Spaniards as not white, that's segregation taken to an extreme and refined to a paranoid art.

A lot of Hispanic people have some Native American ancestry, generally they have dark brown or olive skin and they don't look "white". Like Strike said, Spaniard doesn't equal Hispanic/Latino.

[rvg]

rvg Albania is a Muslim country...

Technically yes it is. The thing is that Albania spent many decades under a brutal Stalinist dictatorship that would make Todor Zhivkov look like a western liberal. It was basically a European version of North Korea. One of the sideffects of a regime with this level of brutality is that it is EXTREMELY good at eliminating competition. Religion was that competition, and it was destroyed not only in terms of converting mosques into storehouses, but it was utterly burned out of people's minds. This isn't Bulgaria or Russia where the local Orthodox Church was tolerated. Religion in Albania was utterly crushed, especially among the majority population.
So yes, you can say that Albania is nominally muslim, but the word "muslim" needs a huge asterisk and a footnote next to it.

[Fisherking]

Technically yes it is. The thing is that Albania spent many decades under a brutal Stalinist dictatorship that would make Todor Zhivkov look like a western liberal. It was basically a European version of North Korea. One of the sideffects of a regime with this level of brutality is that it is EXTREMELY good at eliminating competition. Religion was that competition, and it was destroyed not only in terms of converting mosques into storehouses, but it was utterly burned out of people's minds. This isn't Bulgaria or Russia where the local Orthodox Church tolerated. Religion in Albania was utterly crushed, especially among the majority population.
So yes, you can say that Albania is nominally muslim, but the word "muslim" needs a huge asterisk and a footnote next to it.

But wouldn’t that make believers more fervent and dedicated to their principles once it returned?

[rvg]

But wouldn’t that make believers more fervent and dedicated to their principles once it returned?

That would be the case if religion was suppressed. In case of Albania it wasn't suppressed, it was exterminated.

[Kralizec]

Unfortunately, this is common stance for someone who is unfamiliar with the situation - thinking that applying usual methods will work. Those methods have already been tried and they don't work. Actually, they do, but at a snail's pace. To make things move quicker, a gargantuan effort would be required and that would be hard even for much richer countries. Then, of course, there's a question of fairness - how do you justify spending a 100$ per child in one case and 1$ per child in other case?

Furthermore, even if you provide that, how do you keep them in one place for it to have effect? You can't build a new school every time they move and forcefully relocate teachers. What can you do? Build free houses for them? There simply isn't enough money, and even if it was, why should Roma get it? There are refugees from Bosnia and Croatia who still have housing issues and they have actually been paying taxes for the last few decades. There are other underpriviliged people and they would have just as much right to those houses as Romas.

When you enroll them in school with other kids, they tend to fall behind quickly simply because they are just noticeably less knowledgeable than other kids, even at such young age. You can't hold the rest of the class back for one child. Other issue is that they often don't speak the language well, or even at all sometimes, and you can't even provide teachers because every "charda" (rough translation camp) of few hundred people have their own dialect, and those dialects are mutually unintelligible. There's no Roma language, just thousands of dialects with no grammar or rules.

It's very hard to help someone who doesn't want to be helped.

Maybe you're right.

I've had some hot discussions in real life with people about this (Roma kids). It's my firm opinion that a child's right to a good education trumps parents' rights in regards to their children any day of the week. If the parents are uncapable or unwilling to facilitate that, child protection services should come into play. Someone once called me a fascist for that.
As you say though, there's a point when you can no longer justify spending money on a relatively small number of people. But looking at the figures of Roma who actually obtain diplomas in eastern European country I can't help but wondering wether it's only the Roma's doing, or if maybe their educational needs are simply a very low priority for the governments.

[Strike For The South]

Send me the gypsies

In 2 generations they will be pumping out as many movies and peace prizes as those dirty jews

[HoreTore]

But wouldn’t that make believers more fervent and dedicated to their principles once it returned?

That would be the case if religion was suppressed. In case of Albania it wasn't suppressed, it was exterminated.

We have indeed seen fire, brimstone and jew-on-a-stake in orthodox ex-sovjets, with worrying fundamentalism on the rise. Ditto for the muslim republics.

Except Albania, of course. Compare Albania to Chechnya, and you get your "Hoxha-effect".

[Sarmatian]

Send me the gypsies

In 2 generations they will be pumping out as many movies and peace prizes as those dirty jews

We have indeed seen fire, brimstone and jew-on-a-stake in orthodox ex-sovjets, with worrying fundamentalism on the rise. Ditto for the muslim republics.

Except Albania, of course. Compare Albania to Chechnya, and you get your "Hoxha-effect".

It is funny how people can't think outside a framework.
Eastern europe, Balkans especially -> we don't understand -> therefore it's not like us -> therefore it's bad.

Get your hillbilly communities to produce movies and get nobel prizes, first instead of them living in trash in the Appalachians. And compared to the gypsies, those hillbillies look like they eat everyday with the Queen of England.

There are integrated gypsies, those who decided to take the opportunity to get schooling and get a job. The problem is what to do with those that don't want to.

Maybe you're right.

I've had some hot discussions in real life with people about this (Roma kids). It's my firm opinion that a child's right to a good education trumps parents' rights in regards to their children any day of the week. If the parents are uncapable or unwilling to facilitate that, child protection services should come into play. Someone once called me a fascist for that.

Personally, I agree with it. I'd take away most Roma children, any children, from their parents, if they don't provide for them properly. But, now imagine what would happen - Horetore would read in the papers how in Serbia, Roma children are taken away from their parents and would again start shouting barbarism and cruelty. He would probably spin it in such a way in his head that it would appear to him that children are taken from parents just because they're gypsies. There would be an international outrage at the treatment of Roma.

Then again, more than 3/4 of children in orphanages are Roma kids who had simply been abandoned by their parents or taken away.

[Kadagar_AV]

Let's remember that it is rather easy being socialistic and condemning of others, when you live in a more homogeneous and very rich country.

HoreTore is Norwegian, they have oil and lack 300.000 gypsies.

[HoreTore]

We're no bett - we have already done the "take gypsy kids from their parents and convert them to proper norwegians"-part. You Swedes did the same by the way, Kadagar.

One of the darkest parts of our history, and it was under 50 years ago. Guess what - all it did was ruin lives. Shocker. I wish the US had stepped in and stopped our barbarity, and I sincerely hope they will do it should any Balkan country repeat our barbarity.

Heck, we weren't satisfied with just one failure, we tried the same on at least 3 different ethnic groups to prove beyond doubt what an utterly idiotic idea it is.

I don't presume to have the answer to all questions in life, but here's a starter:

First and most important of all, cease the "gypsies are retards"-attitude. Yes, it's prevalent in the Balkans(heck, all of europe), and no positive change will occur before it's gone. Secondly, examine why those who succeed did it. Closely. Without the aforementioned prejudices. Then, do it.

Culture is a hoax, the world consists of various socio-economic classes. Roma problems are socio-economic problems.

[Kadagar_AV]

Let's remember that it is rather easy being socialistic and condemning of others, when you live in a more homogeneous and very rich country.

HoreTore is Norwegian, they have oil and lack 300.000 gypsies.

EDIT: Point remains exactly the same.
EDIT2: LOL@ "culture is a hoax"... Eeeeeh.... Yeah, there is NO such thing as culture. Nor are there any black people, we are ALL the same. Sorry, I should switch "Norway" for "Lala land".

[Tellos Athenaios]

Get your hillbilly communities to produce movies and get nobel prizes, first instead of them living in trash in the Appalachians. And compared to the gypsies, those hillbillies look like they eat everyday with the Queen of England.

There are integrated gypsies, those who decided to take the opportunity to get schooling and get a job. The problem is what to do with those that don't want to.

Pretty much, though admittedly the bit about the Queen might have something to do with inbreeding. The thing is for the Roma to be part of the host society they simply have to give up their way of life, and they understandably do not want to. But the consequence is that they are less integrated, successful and committed to their host society (as in: acknowledging and in keeping with the law) than your average drug addicted tramp.

It's not necessarily malice or ill-will on either side either. We are a settled society, but a large number of Roma would prefer a nomadic way of life. Nomadism is inherently incompatible as it implies a very destructive lifestyle which effectively destroys a patch of land before moving on to the next. Settled people who used to live on that patch of land would get upset at having it ruined. So having a fixed abode, and holding down a steady job is kind of important over here as is the rule of law (in promptu conflict resolution through acts of violence are frowned upon over here). Respect for individual property rights is important, which means you cannot just claim any patch of land that looks suitable. We also have a welfare society which is predicated on people putting in and not just taking out. This might seem strange over in the USA, but it means you have to pay taxes, too.

All those immigrants America is so proud of having assimilated at least could agree on that, if for no other reason than the fact that they had no other choice. So all there ever was to do is the gradual process of acculturation which yielded assimilation. Roma do, and they would beg to differ from the rest of Europe on these matters, which makes integration let alone assimilation so hard.

The alternative is for the host country to give up its own ways and join the Roma, which apart from everything else would promptly result in mass famine and pollution as it is hugely inefficient and unsustainable way of life, so that is not going to happen very soon either.