Is Islam true?.

[The Lurker Below]

Would an athiest bookstore keep a copy of the bible on their fantasy shelves?

[Beskar]

Would an athiest bookstore keep a copy of the bible on their fantasy shelves?

A secular book store keeps the bible under the "Religions" section.

[total relism]

"You have to understand, you could find hundreds on "contradictions" on atheist websites etc." You have to understand that there is no an atheist "doctrine" or Religion. By definition, you can't have a difference or contradiction in a non belief. There is no "holly" text in atheism. You might a different opinion on why you don't believe, but no body tell you what are the good reasons for not believing.
As soon you will understand this, your life will become more complex.

And the topic was: Contradiction OT/NT. Not if Muslim pray the same god or not.
For this, there is various interpretation, but the Muslim faith recognises the Religions from the Book (AKA the Bible) but kill all other tenants of others faiths, especially polytheist ones.

sorry thought you were Papewaio

[Hax]

Nice to know. Do you happen to have some kind of source about which kind of religions were "protected" and which ones hunted?

There wasn't a standard or anything, things like these fluctuated. For example, the Jewish minority in Andalusia were treated differently in the 11th century (the Massacre of Granada comes to mind) than their counterparts in the 15th century Ottoman Empire.

I have to catch a train now and I can't give you a source on the top of my head.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

EDIT: From the Encyclopedia of the Qur‘an:

The use of this term was later extended to the Sabeans ( al-Ṣābiʾa [q.v.])—both the genuine Sabeans, mentioned in the Ḳurʾān alongside the Jews and the Christians (= Mandeans), and the spurious Sabeans (star-worshippers of Ḥarrān)—to the Zoroastrians (Mad̲j̲iūs [q.v.]), and, in India, even to idolaters.

On benzin archives there is an interesting bit about contacts between Islam and Buddhism (an interesting subject which needs more research).

[total relism]

Not saying I believe/agree with it, but worth watching.

In "Islam: The Untold Story," historian Tom Holland presents what we might call the "Skeptical Thesis." He rejects almost all of the standard Islamic account of Muhammad's life, concluding that stories about Islam's prophet were manufactured for a purpose other than accurate history.
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2012...ing+Muslims%29

[Hax]

Been there, done that. I read his recent book; "In the Shadow of the Sword".

He's stating nothing new. The interpretation of early Islamic history that he proposes has already been put forward by Patricia Crone and Michael Cook. He's a good storyteller, but his historical work is nothing spectacular. My professor of Islamic history actually gave an interview about that book.

[HoreTore]

Not saying I believe/agree with it, but worth watching.

In "Islam: The Untold Story," historian Tom Holland presents what we might call the "Skeptical Thesis." He rejects almost all of the standard Islamic account of Muhammad's life, concluding that stories about Islam's prophet were manufactured for a purpose other than accurate history.
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2012...ing+Muslims%29

If you want a debate, how about writing down your own thoughts instead of copypasting what others have written?

[total relism]

I was giving the description of the video, notice in bold what I did say.

Not saying I believe/agree with it, but worth watching.

In "Islam: The Untold Story," historian Tom Holland presents what we might call the "Skeptical Thesis." He rejects almost all of the standard Islamic account of Muhammad's life, concluding that stories about Islam's prophet were manufactured for a purpose other than accurate history.
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2012...ing+Muslims%29

[HoreTore]

I was giving the description of the video, notice in bold what I did say.

Not saying I believe/agree with it, but worth watching.

In "Islam: The Untold Story," historian Tom Holland presents what we might call the "Skeptical Thesis." He rejects almost all of the standard Islamic account of Muhammad's life, concluding that stories about Islam's prophet were manufactured for a purpose other than accurate history.
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2012...ing+Muslims%29

....and the point being that you said nothing at all....

[Major Robert Dump]

you misspelled Relism.

Mom??

[Strike For The South]

If you were half this critical of Christianity, you'd be a Jew

[Lemur]

you misspelled Relism.

He meant Raëlism, the UFO religion founded in 1974. This whole thing about him being a Christian? Lies.

[total relism]

Muhammad
is he found in bible as claimed by Muslims? me thinks not.

"Muhammad in the Bible?" Shabir Ally vs. James White
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=He87MiAWq90


who is Muhammad? was he a great man, great religious leader?
David Wood vs. Ali Ataie: "Who Was Muhammad?"
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2008...e-who-was.html
Osama Abdallah vs. David Wood: "Was Muhammad a True Prophet?"
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2008...-wood-was.html
Seymour vs. Wood:Was Muhammad a True Prophet?
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2009...mmad-true.html
Omar Bakri & Shah Jalal Hussain vs. Sam Shamoun & David Wood: "Who Was Muhammad?"
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2011...in-vs-sam.html


He was born in mecca,arabia born 570 ad lived 62 years
at age 40 in 610 he received his first revelation, koran written over 22 years
arab christian and jews rejected Muhammad in mecca and drove him out in 622 ad, islam moved from mecca to medina 280 miles north in 622 AD. Year 0 for Muslims
Very early Muhammad was seeking acceptance from jews Christians and was very peaceful, he said things like be tolerant over other religions etc.Than he shifted after they would not accept him, and he moved to medina ,built first mosque in medina. He first perched on friday becoming islamic holy day .He received revaluations to drive out jews in medina,he led 66 battles in medina had 2,000 jews beheaded and there bodies burned in medina . 629 AD with 10,000 men he returned and conquered mecca and slaughtered thousands and forced conversions. following Muhammad death islam was spread by the sword in the “war of apostasy”witch lasted 100 years. Began first by caliph [leader] abu bakr, when many in Arabia wanted to leave Islam, after Muhammad death, killing tens of thousands,while caring out Muhammad orders of killing anyone who leaves Islam

many versus from in Koran that came from mecca sound peaceful tolerant,than when he gained power in median he starts to turn violent towards the end of his career
2.256 written in 614 ad 9.5 in 627 ad, chapter 9 is last chapter written and 2.108 does away with previous scripture so chapter 9 should be of most authority.

“I have been ordered to fight with the people until they say none has the right to be worshiped but allah” vol 4 book 52 hadith 196 Muhammad
he chopped off heads of jews and dug there graves first, 600-900 people also he ordered many assassinations of political opponents
in hadiths it said Muhammad tortured jews for information burned out there eyes
book of life of Muhammad p464
he wiped out 3 tribes of jews in arabia
Muhammad said on his death bed,whoever relinquishes his faith kill him
in hadiths Muhammad claimed god told him to fight people until they became Muslim.
those who do mischief cut there hands and feet from opposite sides and crucify them sura 5.33 Muhammad himself did so to jews vol 8 book 82 hadith 795
Muhammad ordered people to lie in order to kill other people
p307 the life of Muhammad

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 271:
Narrated Jabir:
The Prophet said, "Who is ready to kill Ka'b bin Ashraf (i.e. a Jew)." Muhammad bin Maslama replied, "Do you like me to kill him?" The Prophet replied in the affirmative. Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say what I like." The Prophet replied, "I do (i.e. allow you)."


Muhammad had 12 wives the youngest was 6 years old vol 7 book 62 hadith 88
Sahih al-Bukhari 5134—Narrated Aishah that the Prophet wrote the marriage contract with her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: “I have been informed that Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death).”
Sahih al-Bukhari 5158—Narrated Urwa: The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).


Muhammad has fought within many large armies
believers cannot bother Muhammad with familiar talk or he will be annoyed anoyed
no speaking ill of Muhammad 33.53-54
Muhammad kept spoils from attacking a unarmed caravan to mecca from syria he led the battle in 624 AD 8.1
led battle in 630 ad vs meccans
Muhammad was called to rose believers to fight 8.62-66
Muhammad told believers to fight them till they convert paradise for anyone who dies in war vol 4 book 53 hadith 586
considered perfect man to try to replicate him

instead of starting a peaceful religion in medina when he was no longer oppressed, but instead waged war until his death many years later.
In the hadiths Muhammad said fighting is worth more than all the world

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 50:
Narrated Anas bin Malik:
The Prophet said, "A single endeavor (of fighting) in Allah's Cause in the forenoon or in the afternoon is better than the world and whatever is in it."
blessed a follower for driving a bow through someones eye and out the back

Al-Tabari, Volume 39, p. 185—Ibn ‘Umar [al-Waqidi] – Kathir b. Zayd – al-Walid b. Rabah – Abu Hurayrah: While the Prophet was lying with Safiyyah Abu Ayyub stayed the night at his door. When he saw the Prophet in the morning he said "God is the Greatest." He had a sword with him; he said to the Prophet, "O Messenger of God, this young woman had just been married, and you killed her father, her brother and her husband, so I did not trust her (not to harm) you." The Prophet laughed and said "Good."
Sunan Abu Dawud 2150—Abu Said al-Khudri said: "The apostle of Allah sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the apostle of Allah were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Quranic verse, "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess" [Qur’an 4:24]. That is to say, they are lawful for them when they complete their waiting period."
Al-Tabari, Volume 39, p. 194—The Prophet admired Umm Ibrahaim [Mary the Copt], who was fair-skinned and beautiful. He lodged her in al-Aliyah, at the property nowadays called the mashrabah of Umm Ibrahim. He used to visit her there and ordered her to veil herself, [but] he had intercourse with her by virtue of her being his property.


comparing Muhammad and Jesus

Jesus Christ v. Muhammed
http://www.jashow.org/Articles/_PDFA...s-Muhammed.pdf



Murdered by Muhammad:
The Brutal Deaths of Islam’s Earliest Enemies#
http://www.acts17.net/articles/murderedbymuhammad.htm
Muhammad is to make war with nonbelivers and deal sternly with them 66.9


the koran says Mohammad is to be blameless for all he does
jesus took on blame of all.


Muhammad alone has right to dowries slave-girls for boty,daughters of his maternal and paternal uncles and aunts and any believing woman 33.50 Muhammad can change and equire new slave girls 33.51-51
Jesus was given no special rights, and played the role of a servant [and slave] to mankind Philippians 2:5-8.


those that wrong Muhammad will be sternly punished -9.61
Jesus was wronged by us, and yet wishfully dies for us on the cross -Romans 5.8


Muhammad was brought a woman in adultery and stoned her to death vol 2 book 23 hadith 413
Jesus was brought a woman caught in adultery and forgave her. -John 7:53-8:11


Mohammad's body like all “religious” leaders is buried in the ground [Medina]
Were is jesus's body?


Muhammad killed many enemies and political rivals, led many battles, beheaded prisoners of war, ordered assassinations, tortured people,had 12 wives,one 9years old when he was 54, said things like he was sent by god to kill unbelievers [and much more] and commanded his followers to do the same.
Jesus lived a sinless life,even his enemies could not point to fault in him, his greatest commandment to his followers was to love god with all your heart and love your neighbors as yourself.


Muhammad said “I have been ordered to fight with the people until they say none has the right to be worshiped but allah” vol 4 book 52 hadith 196
Jesus said Blessed are the peacemakers, For they shall be called sons of God. And 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven
from the sermon on the mount

[Hax]

Good job, tr, a great response to all those posts mentioning Muhammad! Well-done!

[total relism]

Is posting about Muhammad off topic? people talk about pizza on thread your ok with that, but I talk about Muhammad and i should not?. I believe bringing in his history and things he did, has bearing on islam and if it is true.

[a completely inoffensive name]

My favorite pizza is with bacon bits sprinkled on top, but I also like the kind with ham and pineapple slices as long as the pineapple is fresh.

What kind of pizzas do you like @Hax?

[total relism]

My favorite pizza is with bacon bits sprinkled on top, but I also like the kind with ham and pineapple slices as long as the pineapple is fresh.

What kind of pizzas do you like @Hax?

you cant be muslim than because

He has only forbidden to you dead animals, blood, the flesh of swine, and that which has been dedicated to other than Allah . But whoever is forced [by necessity], neither desiring [it] nor transgressing [its limit], there is no sin upon him. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
2.173


lol, there we can talk about pizza and be on topic.

[Jolt]

I shall follow the thread's title question with a few questions of my own:



What makes Christianity more true than Islam?

What makes Hellenic religion more true than Christianity?

What makes Zoroastriasnism more true than Hellenism?

What makes Norse mythology more true than Zoroastrianism?

What makes Hinduism more true than Norse mythology?

What makes Judaism more true than Hinduism?

What makes Celtic religion more true than Judaism?

What makes Joltaism (Whereby you worship me as a God and believe that I am all powerful) more true than Celtic religion?

What makes Islam more true than Joltaism?

Is it number of followers?
Is it the geographical spread of the religion?
Is it number of wrong predictions?
Is it the militancy/anger of its followers?
Is it the peacefulness of its followers?
Is it whoever has more coverage on newspapers/TV/Internet?
Is it who can shout louder?
Is it the degree of subjectivity in its sacred book which allows for various interpretations of the same phrase or the same word?
Is it the number of languages it is translated to, thereby losing its ultimate true meaning and idioms and significance, written in the original version?
Is it the lack of translated versions and therefore its authenticity?
Is it actually the lack of a sacred book?
Is it ultimately up to each person to decide what they make most sense and that becomes true in their own minds?
Is it ultimately up to me, Jolt, to decide what is actually the true religion, as you are all imaginary constructs and creations of my own brilliant mind?

I'd like the OP to answer to these questions of mine. Fortunately, I doubt they can be answered with a simple copy-paste.

[a completely inoffensive name]

you cant be muslim than because

He has only forbidden to you dead animals, blood, the flesh of swine, and that which has been dedicated to other than Allah . But whoever is forced [by necessity], neither desiring [it] nor transgressing [its limit], there is no sin upon him. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
2.173


lol, there we can talk about pizza and be on topic.

My interpretation of swine is fat people. I still love and follow Allah and I still love my bacon.

[Vlixes]

You cannot characterize religions as being true or false. Religions are far away from truth or falsity. Truth and falsity are a property of judgments about experience. The possibility to have experience of what we state in our judgments is called evidence. Religion has no evidence, for its judgments are beyond experience. Science, on the other hand, studies the world we experience. Religion, on its side, states ideas about a supernatural invisible world, a world of pure faith. As we cannot verify nor have scientific evidence of this world, therefore all religions, i.e., Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc., are valid systems of faith and not scientific hypothesis or statements. To believe or not in a religion is part of our free will.
Peace to all.

[total relism]

I shall follow the thread's title question with a few questions of my own:



What makes Christianity more true than Islam?

What makes Hellenic religion more true than Christianity?

What makes Zoroastriasnism more true than Hellenism?

What makes Norse mythology more true than Zoroastrianism?

What makes Hinduism more true than Norse mythology?

What makes Judaism more true than Hinduism?

What makes Celtic religion more true than Judaism?

What makes Joltaism (Whereby you worship me as a God and believe that I am all powerful) more true than Celtic religion?

What makes Islam more true than Joltaism?

Is it number of followers?
Is it the geographical spread of the religion?
Is it number of wrong predictions?
Is it the militancy/anger of its followers?
Is it the peacefulness of its followers?
Is it whoever has more coverage on newspapers/TV/Internet?
Is it who can shout louder?
Is it the degree of subjectivity in its sacred book which allows for various interpretations of the same phrase or the same word?
Is it the number of languages it is translated to, thereby losing its ultimate true meaning and idioms and significance, written in the original version?
Is it the lack of translated versions and therefore its authenticity?
Is it actually the lack of a sacred book?
Is it ultimately up to each person to decide what they make most sense and that becomes true in their own minds?
Is it ultimately up to me, Jolt, to decide what is actually the true religion, as you are all imaginary constructs and creations of my own brilliant mind?

I'd like the OP to answer to these questions of mine. Fortunately, I doubt they can be answered with a simple copy-paste.

I shall ask in return,what makes 2 contradictory set of beliefs both true or false? I am christian, either the bible is 100% true, and gods word. Or it is false. Islam, either it is 100 true and gods word in the koran, or it is false. This applies to all those belief systems, atheism, Norse mythology,Hinduism,islam etc etc. This thread is on the question is Islam true. If you wish to debate me 1v1 on any religion vs christianity, I accept. The negative evidence against islam given in debates and post I have made,make me not think it is true.

As far as your questions go, I would say most none of them should be determining factors, but this
"Is it number of wrong predictions?" The bible says if even one is made,than you know it is false religion.
and this one
"Is it ultimately up to each person to decide what they make most sense and that becomes true in their own minds?"
if we are to trust in our own ability/mind, than yes it is up to us to decide. My thread is to hopefully help others decide on islam, give info many may not now.

You cannot characterize religions as being true or false. Religions are far away from truth or falsity. Truth and falsity are a property of judgments about experience. The possibility to have experience of what we state in our judgments is called evidence. Religion has no evidence, for its judgments are beyond experience. Science, on the other hand, studies the world we experience. Religion, on its side, states ideas about a supernatural invisible world, a world of pure faith. As we cannot verify nor have scientific evidence of this world, therefore all religions, i.e., Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc., are valid systems of faith and not scientific hypothesis or statements. To believe or not in a religion is part of our free will.
Peace to all.

This is a exstermely politically correct view, . I believe islam can be shown false very easily [read OP and my other posts]. It is also clear you have no idea or have not read bible/koran. Speaking of science,the koran makes many blunders regarding science. But it makes many other blunders as well. You seem to think only scientifically we can gain knowledge, could you scientifically show me that? I truly hope you do not think atheist dont have faith or believe in the unseen as they certainly do,as well as believing things contradictory to science. But yes science is a great tool to test hypothesis to see if they are valid. But overall,talking with you will get nowhere, as you have no clue of the belief systems you claim are all the same, and talk of a different world lol.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

You cannot characterize religions as being true or false. Religions are far away from truth or falsity. Truth and falsity are a property of judgments about experience. The possibility to have experience of what we state in our judgments is called evidence. Religion has no evidence, for its judgments are beyond experience. Science, on the other hand, studies the world we experience. Religion, on its side, states ideas about a supernatural invisible world, a world of pure faith. As we cannot verify nor have scientific evidence of this world, therefore all religions, i.e., Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc., are valid systems of faith and not scientific hypothesis or statements. To believe or not in a religion is part of our free will.
Peace to all.

Fundamentally wrong.

Religion is not "beyond experience" - it is beyond quantifiable measurement, which is completely different.


Further, "Truth" is a philosophical and not a scientific concept - nothing in Science is true, it is merely more or less likely to be an accurate aproximation of reality.

[Fragony]

Fundamentally wrong.

Religion is not "beyond experience" - it is beyond quantifiable measurement, which is completely different.


Further, "Truth" is a philosophical and not a scientific concept - nothing in Science is true, it is merely more or less likely to be an accurate aproximation of reality.

Truth is not faith. Science doesn't pretend to be an absolute, it is well aware that it's an aproximation.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Truth is not faith. Science doesn't pretend to be an absolute, it is well aware that it's an aproximation.

But the point is that Science does not deal with "Truth", "truth" is a useless concept for Science, and a potentially dangerous one.

As soon as a scientist makes a truth-claim he has stepped outside the Scientific method.

[Fragony]

But the point is that Science does not deal with "Truth", "truth" is a useless concept for Science, and a potentially dangerous one.

As soon as a scientist makes a truth-claim he has stepped outside the Scientific method.

Of course, hard to disagree with that

[Jolt]

I shall ask in return,what makes 2 contradictory set of beliefs both true or false?

If you're asking something in return, you are objectively, answering nothing. You're the one purporting to know that one religion is false and another true, so you are supposed to know that. I want specific answers on what makes one religion more true than all others.

As far as your questions go, I would say most none of them should be determining factors, but this
"Is it number of wrong predictions?" The bible says if even one is made,than you know it is false religion.
and this one

Bible has quite a few of them, unless you obviously start saying they are not literal, in which case, I guess the factor of how true a religion is, is how subjective its sacred book is.

"Is it ultimately up to each person to decide what they make most sense and that becomes true in their own minds?"
if we are to trust in our own ability/mind, than yes it is up to us to decide. My thread is to hopefully help others decide on islam, give info many may not now.

Then if it is up to each person to decide, it seems quite absurd and hilarious for one religious person to claim other religions are false and on his God is the real deal.

[Brenus]

“I truly hope you do not think atheist dont have faith or believe in the unseen as they certainly do, as well as believing things contradictory to science.” Do you really believe that to repeat lies make them true? Atheism is not based on science. Atheism is not a belief system. I am atheist but I have my own certitudes in some values. They are intellectual values, as resistance to oppression, help in danger and hardship, saving lives, respecting ecological balance etc… Science asks a phenomenon to be repeated and to give always the same result (you drop an object, it falls, always, depending set physical conditions).
Protect the World where rationality based on science would lead. It is not rational to risk a 20 years old life to save a 3 years old baby. But we do.

“I am christian, either the bible is 100% true, and gods word” Gods? So you are not a Christian as the 3 Gods are allegedly one. So the Bible is wrong as there are too many discrepancies and contradictions in all these stories… So it is not God words, so there is no God. You finally get it.

[total relism]

If you're asking something in return, you are objectively, answering nothing. You're the one purporting to know that one religion is false and another true, so you are supposed to know that. I want specific answers on what makes one religion more true than all others.



Bible has quite a few of them, unless you obviously start saying they are not literal, in which case, I guess the factor of how true a religion is, is how subjective its sacred book is.



Then if it is up to each person to decide, it seems quite absurd and hilarious for one religious person to claim other religions are false and on his God is the real deal.

I said one religion is false on this thread Islam, I was simply stating they cannot be all true. Why my belief I feel is correct over islam will be for another thread. I believe islam is false for the many reasons i have posted, plus on the debates on OP.


Please show me one, no two, your two very best please.


how so? it is up to us to decide if something is true or not. I fail to see why that is hard to understand, I have decided atheism is false as well. I was just saying this thread should be for info to help people decide about islam.

“I truly hope you do not think atheist dont have faith or believe in the unseen as they certainly do, as well as believing things contradictory to science.” Do you really believe that to repeat lies make them true? Atheism is not based on science. Atheism is not a belief system. I am atheist but I have my own certitudes in some values. They are intellectual values, as resistance to oppression, help in danger and hardship, saving lives, respecting ecological balance etc… Science asks a phenomenon to be repeated and to give always the same result (you drop an object, it falls, always, depending set physical conditions).
Protect the World where rationality based on science would lead. It is not rational to risk a 20 years old life to save a 3 years old baby. But we do.

“I am christian, either the bible is 100% true, and gods word” Gods? So you are not a Christian as the 3 Gods are allegedly one. So the Bible is wrong as there are too many discrepancies and contradictions in all these stories… So it is not God words, so there is no God. You finally get it.

First part, I have no idea what your saying, I was just saying to be atheist you must have faith,and must believe things contradictory to science [upcoming thread]


god's own word, not multiple gods. There is one god, if the bible is true as I said. It is either 100% true, or all false. are you not the one that already tried contradictions? that I responded to? You think you have any pick your very best one, I will respond.

[Fragony]

Atheism is no faith, we don't believe god doesn't exist we just can't be bothered

[Hax]

First part, I have no idea what your saying, I was just saying to be atheist you must have faith,and must believe things contradictory to science [upcoming thread]

Finally, we're getting on the same page here.