How could a loving god send people to Hell?

[Idaho]

TR - You keep talking about a 1v1 debate being some ultimate contest. I said before that I was happy to debate with you but that we need some arbiter and rules about not allowing cut and paste oddessys.

Also we need to recognise that we won't change anyone's mind.

[total relism]

So God's judgment is perfect? Any evidence for this, or is this just one of the many taken-to-be-true-without-question "facts" purported in holy texts? If you do have evidence for God's perfect judgment, I'd love to hear them.

And please don't refer me to the OP. That seems to be the focal point of your argument.

Theologically speaking, gods perfect justice as in he cant allow sin to go unpunished. The evidence is based on the bible and what it says about sin etc That is the evidence for the character of god when we discuss the bible. I would think that would be rather clear on this thread my bad.

I read the above and first you say they are both true... I think that they are mutually exclusive. You need to choose either.
The second highlight favours complete free will... nothing is set in stone, no predestination is committed. Which is more sound.


Let's agree that predestination IS the doctrine proposed by Calvinism and nothing else... you should move away from the word and use something else if you want to incorporate free will and the foreknowledge of God.



This is more in line with free will... Man is free to choose evil and God will not intervene in those choices... but will hand out the consequences, either temporal (Sodom and Gomorrah, Lot's wife) and/or eternal (damnation). Man's destiny is not set in stone and he/she will be able to choose salvation in this lifetime by repentance.

I gave you a handle in my second post --- I would like to hear your opinion of it.
You could finish this sentence: Opposition in all things exists because ...

They are both true with a lower case letter as they say. I exspalined how they are both true many times, let me try again. I explained how they both are not exclusive.


Predestination/free will
Both are true,God knows peoples heart before they are born, he predestines them to be saved. Those that live by faith god foreknow them by faith, he predestined them to be saved.
If predestination is true than no need to evangelize.
Gen 2.19 Ezekiel 18.2-32 luke 13.34 matt 18.14 mark 8.34 Deuteronomy 5.29


The bolded part refers to what many think of as predestination, with a capital letter.As in god chose some people randomly and predestined them to be saved regardless of there will etc.




I agree I think we have mix up of meanings. By free will i mean people have 100% choice in there salvation.



I have affirmed free will since the beginning.


I dont know how you feel I have not responded, know that you know I have affirmed free will from beginning.

TR - You keep talking about a 1v1 debate being some ultimate contest. I said before that I was happy to debate with you but that we need some arbiter and rules about not allowing cut and paste oddessys.

Also we need to recognise that we won't change anyone's mind.

proving one of the topic i asked to debate you on that evidence does not matter but your worldview. I am 100% ok with rules for a 1v1 debate.

[Sigurd]

I dont know how you feel I have not responded, know that you know I have affirmed free will from beginning.

It is the mixing of predestination and free will that I make a complaint towards. Predestination with or without the capital letter has a very specific meaning and contradicts free will.
That's all.
You should use preordained as a synonym for your version of free will.

Now to my question of why does God create/allow evil? Why does he need evil in his creation?
It is missing in your discussion.

[Idaho]

Theologically speaking, gods perfect justice as in he cant allow sin to go unpunished. The evidence is based on the bible and what it says about sin etc That is the evidence for the character of god when we discuss the bible. I would think that would be rather clear on this thread my bad.




They are both true with a lower case letter as they say. I exspalined how they are both true many times, let me try again. I explained how they both are not exclusive.


Predestination/free will
Both are true,God knows peoples heart before they are born, he predestines them to be saved. Those that live by faith god foreknow them by faith, he predestined them to be saved.
If predestination is true than no need to evangelize.
Gen 2.19 Ezekiel 18.2-32 luke 13.34 matt 18.14 mark 8.34 Deuteronomy 5.29


The bolded part refers to what many think of as predestination, with a capital letter.As in god chose some people randomly and predestined them to be saved regardless of there will etc.




I agree I think we have mix up of meanings. By free will i mean people have 100% choice in there salvation.



I have affirmed free will since the beginning.


I dont know how you feel I have not responded, know that you know I have affirmed free will from beginning.




proving one of the topic i asked to debate you on that evidence does not matter but your worldview. I am 100% ok with rules for a 1v1 debate.

Ok. Find an arbiter, a location and a panel of jurors who we can do a before and after poll with.

[total relism]

It is the mixing of predestination and free will that I make a complaint towards. Predestination with or without the capital letter has a very specific meaning and contradicts free will.
That's all.
You should use preordained as a synonym for your version of free will.

Now to my question of why does God create/allow evil? Why does he need evil in his creation?
It is missing in your discussion.

First thanks for the good discussions.

I disagree that they contradict, only when they are thought of as they normally are. I think the bible says diffident on both subjects. I will try to exspalin better what i mean.

free will- The bible teaches 100% that people have free will. This does not in anyway contradict,that god predestined those that would live by faith, to be saved.

Ok. Find an arbiter, a location and a panel of jurors who we can do a before and after poll with.

I will take that as back down.

[Sigurd]

I don't think you will find the word predestined or predestination in the Bible. Predestination as per definition belongs to the Calvinistic doctrine on this subject.

Will you deal with my question as posted previously?

[total relism]

I don't think you will find the word predestined or predestination in the Bible. Predestination as per definition belongs to the Calvinistic doctrine on this subject.

Will you deal with my question as posted previously?

could you please tell me what it is? I dont know what your referring to, I thought I had responded to all. I think it comes down to how to understand what is meant by predestination vs free will, so I will refer you to post 54 that seems as easily said as possible on why they dont contradict.

[Sigurd]

could you please tell me what it is? I dont know what your referring to, I thought I had responded to all. I think it comes down to how to understand what is meant by predestination vs free will, so I will refer you to post 54 that seems as easily said as possible on why they dont contradict.

let me quote myself:

Now to my question of why does God create/allow evil? Why does he need evil in his creation?
It is missing in your discussion.

[Idaho]

I will take that as back down.

It's not meant to be. Did anyone else read it as a back down?

[spankythehippo]

Theologically speaking, gods perfect justice as in he cant allow sin to go unpunished. The evidence is based on the bible and what it says about sin etc That is the evidence for the character of god when we discuss the bible. I would think that would be rather clear on this thread my bad.

The evidence is in the Bible? Has anyone confirmed this with first-hand experience? Without confirmation, or at least a valid theory, it becomes difficult to accept as truth.

[a completely inoffensive name]

The evidence is in the Bible? Has anyone confirmed this with first-hand experience?

Confirmation is impossible right now, every person who has claimed to have read the Bible has been accused of not reading it correctly.

[HoreTore]

The need to punish sins would be something I would regard as evil though, so the god TR speaks about is imperfect and evil IMO.

[jirisys]

C.S. Lewis is a hack, stop quoting him. He made two horrible movies about people coming out of the closet. There wasn't even any homosexuality involved at all!

Unless you're into incest.

~Jirisys ()

[Sigurd]

The need to punish sins would be something I would regard as evil though...

Hippie!!

[spankythehippo]

Confirmation is impossible right now, every person who has claimed to have read the Bible has been accused of not reading it correctly.

That's exactly my point. If confirmation is impossible, I don't believe it.