Is Indigenous Military Outposts bugged?

[QuintusSertorius]

As Epeiros I installed the Phrourion Laon (Indigenous Military Outposts) building in Massalia, and it seems to be making the Hellenistic Polities culture go down (from 29% to 27%, having originally risen from 25% to 29%), and the Eastern Imperial culture go up (from 9% to 11%). Which makes no sense at all.

Is the "Cultural Conversion Bonus" associated with this building going wrong? Like applying in the wrong direction? Shouldn't it be making my culture (Hellenistic Polities) go up?

And where is the Eastern Imperial culture coming from in the first place? Massalia starts out 0% Eastern Imperial, something is going funny here.

[Arjos]

That building was designed for military settlers in Asia. Either that is a result of your porting of Epeiros there, or most likely an unintended consequence, because I think that buildings can only convert to a single culture...

If the last is not true, we will edit it accordingly, if it is they probably will be removed from western provinces...

[QuintusSertorius]

That building was designed for military settlers in Asia. Either that is a result of your porting of Epeiros there, or most likely an unintended consequence, because I think that buildings can only convert to a single culture...

If the last is not true, we will edit it accordingly, if it is they probably will be removed from western provinces...

It would really help if the description said what culture it converts to; I thought it was a bit strange being there, but faster conversion sounded too good to be true. Turned out it was, since it was converting to a foreign cultures!

I'll destroy it and see if it starts going down again. Is it possible to edit culture with the console? I'd like to remove that Eastern Imperial, since it should never have been there.

[Arjos]

I cannot answer that, but will see if we can set a more detailed description for the effects...

[QuintusSertorius]

I cannot answer that, but will see if we can set a more detailed description for the effects...

Right, looking at the Building Browser, higher tiers of the Indigenous Military Outpost require 20% then 40% Eastern Imperial culture, so it seems a good bet that's the source of the issue.

Has it been mistakenly inserted in the building roster in place of Metoikia Katoikon (Foreign Military Settlers)? I can't build that in Massalia, but it's a requirement to upgrade to Supervised Hellenic Administration.

In fact I can't build those anywhere; I wonder if Epeiros has the wrong kind of settlers/outposts?

EDIT: And as a quick addendum, since destroying that Hellenistic Polities is climbing again - though Eastern Imperial isn't falling (yet, at least).

[Arjos]

The inability to not being able to build every government everywhere is definitely not a bug or mistake...
Each province for each faction can reach a max level or establish certain forms of government depening on socio-political historical grounds...

The Metoikia Katoikon is a complex for provinces with Hellenes and Hellenised locals already in place, so yes Massalia's region should fit in that category...

Keep in mind that certain buildings, like this one, initially were designed in another manner, which proved to be a poor representation...
Being later modified to the current system, it could've been overlooked there. Thanks for the heads up ^^

[QuintusSertorius]

Oh, absolutely; I agree there are limits on what can be built where. As you say, there are pre-requisites for some buildings representing the underlying cultures/peoples.

In this specific instance, it seems like the Phourion Laon is available in Massalia when it should be the Metoikia Katoikon instead. Incidentally this is also the case with Syrakousai and Emporion - I wonder if its throughout the west?

I should add I'm not complaining, mind; this is a brilliant, but also complex system, so things like this are about to happen at first.

[clone]

The inability to not being able to build every government everywhere is definitely not a bug or mistake...
Each province for each faction can reach a max level or establish certain forms of government depening on socio-political historical grounds...

The Metoikia Katoikon is a complex for provinces with Hellenes and Hellenised locals already in place, so yes Massalia's region should fit in that category...

Keep in mind that certain buildings, like this one, initially were designed in another manner, which proved to be a poor representation...
Being later modified to the current system, it could've been overlooked there. Thanks for the heads up ^^

That building was designed for military settlers in Asia. Either that is a result of your porting of Epeiros there, or most likely an unintended consequence, because I think that buildings can only convert to a single culture...

If the last is not true, we will edit it accordingly, if it is they probably will be removed from western provinces...

why use it only for asia when this buildings can be used for everyone. when i first saw that building i thought that it represents what ptolemies have done with the egyptians . capture a foreign city,bring greek settles,after you have enough garrison start recruiting the local population .a city where greeks and local are living together like in alexandria. a mix of eb 1 3 and 2 goverment
i liked in eb1 that as macedonia i could conquer rome and build a level 2 goverment (satrapy) and then i could build half greek-half roman units(if i had build thew native baracks).now when you capture a foreign city the only options are only to hellenize them or allied goverment not the satrapal goverment (between those two options) that existed in eb

[aapjes]

The indigenous outposts are supposed to be military settlements of native peoples.

I think someone said though that they are only supposed to be buildable in the east as they represent the Ptolemaioi and Seleukids recruiting natives when no Hellenic settlers are available and are used for other factions such as Hayasdan and Saba to eventually convert to eastern imperial from tribal culture.

As for the other military settlers building line, those are Hellenic settlers and will boost Hellenic culture, but they require colony points which you can currently only get from controlling a metropolis.

e: Also if you don't currently have colony points buildings which require such will not show up in the building browser.

[QuintusSertorius]

why use it only for asia when this buildings can be used for everyone. when i first saw that building i thought that it represents what ptolemies have done with the egyptians . capture a foreign city,bring greek settles,after you have enough garrison start recruiting the local population .a city where greeks and local are living together like in alexandria. a mix of eb 1 3 and 2 goverment

I think it was intended only for Asia (which in the Greek definition includes Egypt), because there are other military settler/colonist buildings for other regions/factions. But in this instance, it appears to be in the wrong place.

The indigenous outposts are supposed to be military settlements of native peoples.

I think someone said though that they are only supposed to be buildable in the east as they represent the Ptolemaioi and Seleukids recruiting natives when no Hellenic settlers are available and are used for other factions such as Hayasdan and Saba to eventually convert to eastern imperial from tribal culture.

As for the other military settlers building line, those are Hellenic settlers and will boost Hellenic culture, but they require colony points which you can currently only get from controlling a metropolis.

e: Also if you don't currently have colony points buildings which require such will not show up in the building browser.

It says in the description that by employing natives you speed Hellenisation.

But either way, they shouldn't be in the (far) western Mediterranean.

I've only got Small Hellenistic Poleis buildings at the moment (one in Massalia, another in Emporion) so no colony points. Waiting for those to go Greek enough to be able to upgrade it.

[Arjos]

Sorry, I meant everything east of Hellas, where the Hellenistic polities expanded...

[clone]

I think it was intended only for Asia (which in the Greek definition includes Egypt), because there are other military settler/colonist buildings for other regions/factions. But in this instance, it appears to be in the wrong place.

maybe. i am suggesting to use it different (as i suggested). if makedonians captured rome for example i thing they would do more or less what the ptolemies did.this building to represent locals that are recruited into service
the reasons i like macedonia in eb1 was
1 could build native baracks but on the same time could build level 2 goverment in a large area of land (nearly everywhere)
2 had neutral level two goverment not only fit everywhere but was also accurate (satrapia makedonike)
and so with 1+2 i could role play creating a greek empire
now there in only choise to either helenize the city or make allied

[Arjos]

That approach is very simplistic, as was EBI's, in Asia and Africa the Makedonian Dynastai were able to set developed forms of government, because there already existed complex multi-secular practices, which the Hellenistic polities preserved and adapted to them...

The idea that the Romani and Latini would accept an Hellenised Persian form of government in a matter of few years is completely fictional...
Also we cannot invent forms of government that did not exist (as the Hellenes never captured the west and formed anything more than colonies there)...

Thus you will have to hellenise the locals or allow them to keep their forms of government in the west, much like what was the common practice among Hellenistic polities...

Not that this prevents you to gain access to better troops in the west, quite the contrary...

[aapjes]

It says in the description that by employing natives you speed Hellenisation.

But either way, they shouldn't be in the (far) western Mediterranean.

I've only got Small Hellenistic Poleis buildings at the moment (one in Massalia, another in Emporion) so no colony points. Waiting for those to go Greek enough to be able to upgrade it.

If Hayasdan et al. do indeed use this same building line though and it's actually intended to help Hellenic culture a new building will be needed either way.

[Arjos]

If Hayasdan et al. do indeed use this same building line though and it's actually intended to help Hellenic culture a new building will be needed either way.

Why would it? The spreading of Hellenic culture in Massalia's region would be the intended goal...

[aapjes]

I'm not entirely sure because I haven't seen what goverments Hayasdan has access to after reforms but it seems this building is the only way for them to spread eastern imperial culture?

This of course isn't a problem if you can change which culture is spread based on location/faction/main culture of faction but I don't know if that's possible.

[Arjos]

Yes, the Phrourion Laon spreads eastern imperial culture...

But I was speaking about the Metoikia Katoikon, which thanks to QuintusSertorius post should be featured in Massalia and the western provinces :)

[QuintusSertorius]

Yes, the Phrourion Laon spreads eastern imperial culture...

But I was speaking about the Metoikia Katoikon, which thanks to QuintusSertorius post will be featured in Massalia :)

Do any of the other Greek-founded colonies in the west qualify? I'm thinking of Emporion, Syrakousai, Messana, Rhegion, Taras.

[Arjos]

You ninja'd my edit, but probably most of the western mediterranean will be able to ^^

[clone]

That approach is very simplistic, as was EBI's, in Asia and Africa the Makedonian Dynastai were able to set developed forms of government, because there already existed complex multi-secular practices, which the Hellenistic polities preserved and adapted to them...

The idea that the Romani and Latini would accept an Hellenised Persian form of government in a matter of few years is completely fictional...
Also we cannot invent forms of government that did not exist (as the Hellenes never captured the west and formed anything more than colonies there)...

Thus you will have to hellenise the locals or allow them to keep their forms of government in the west, much like what was the common practice among Hellenistic polities...

1 why egyptians accepted the greeks or the persians and the romans wouldnt accept the greeks. everything can be accepted if behind you happens to be a pointy spear
2this game i thing is about creating your own version of history plus satrapia was an accurate form of goverment.satrapia both from history and eb1 info was an decentralized city where it was rulled by a strategos so this goverment can be created everywhere

3 the reason i dislike the currect model is that either you have to hellenize a city or make it allied
a)the problem with 1 option is that campaign get boring by recruiting only greek troops,cities are lifeless and the most importand thing you dont feel that you have an empire or at least rulling other people(in eb1 i was conquering citieso only to see what different troops you could build
b)the problem with secont option is that creating in all non greek cities allied goverment is unrealistic(not only having only allied goverment is unrealist by it self ,establising democrasy in nomads is not the most accurate),you cant build all buildings and most importantly an empire is created by having subjects not allies
what i am suggesting is keeping the current system but add one third(what the ptolemis did in allexandria)
please concider something like this but if you dont could you direct me what is the name of the file that i need to change in order to change the following ( name of building,what can be recruited in the building).only the name of thew file)

[aapjes]

It's fine if the Phrourion Laon is intended to spread eastern imperial culture (I myself assumed this was the case without really reading the description) but as Quintus noted it's description states it was sometimes used to hasten Hellenisation which could cause some confusion.

[Arjos]

1 why egyptians accepted the greeks or the persians and the romans wouldnt accept the greeks. everything can be accepted if behind you happens to be a pointy spear

Countless rebellions in Aigyptos and everywhere else beg to differ...

campaign get boring by recruiting only greek troops

With the military colonies like Metoikia Katoikon and Phrourion Laon, you will be able to do just what you are after and recruit local non-hellenic troops...

creating in all non greek cities allied goverment is unrealistic(not only having only allied goverment is unrealist by it self ,establising democrasy in nomads is not the most accurate)

It is exactly what happened, olygarchy and democracy are just broad terms for the lack of more than two options that fit every single corner of the world...
The allied governments keeps intact how the locals governed themselves, the only difference is whether it is a closer of more open political system...

As for the nomadic world you'd be surprised to find out that almost the whole population, male and female, was free and held the same rights as everybody else. Only wealth distinguished social groups and power only applied to military matters and foreign affairs, mostly because the people with whom they interacted expected/needed single figures to deal with...
At a community level in each camp elders took decisions...

most importantly an empire is created by having subjects not allies

That is completely wrong not only for Hellenistic polities, but also for pretty much every other culture...
Hellenistic epigraphy throughout the period is almost entirely a matter of Basileis establishing alliances with local governments...

What happened really was not coercion, but either the local elite was eliminated and the newcomers substituted themselves or a defeated people was integrated into another...
The former however requires willingness from the defeated to do so, either because feeling unable to resist or because its own upper social echelons opted for collaboration...

That a single man or body of people would rule over a multitude of others was the undiscussed way of things in the whole ancient world...
Really still is :P

[QuintusSertorius]

Any ideas how I can reduce the 11% Eastern Imperial culture the building created during its tenure? Will it just subside with time?

[Arjos]

I don't think that via console is even possible, but then I'm no modder :P

Eventually the other cultures will take over, provided you have destroyed the cause for its initial spreading (which I think you did)...
The engine works at a % level, so the smaller the number, the smaller is the change. That 11% will take more time to decrease...

[clone]

1Countless rebellions in Aigyptos and everywhere else beg to differ...



2With the military colonies like Metoikia Katoikon and Phrourion Laon, you will be able to do just what you are after and recruit local non-hellenic troops...



It is exactly what happened, olygarchy and democracy are just broad terms for the lack of more than two options that fit every single corner of the world...
The allied governments keeps intact how the locals governed themselves, the only difference is whether it is a closer of more open political system...

3As for the nomadic world you'd be surprised to find out that almost the whole population, male and female, was free and held the same rights as everybody else. Only wealth distinguished social groups and power only applied to military matters and foreign affairs, mostly because the people with whom they interacted expected/needed single figures to deal with...



That is completely wrong not only for Hellenistic polities, but also for pretty much every other culture...
Hellenistic epigraphy throughout the period is almost entirely a matter of Basileis establishing alliances with local governments...

What happened really was not coercion, but either the local elite was eliminated and the newcomers substituted themselves or a defeated people was integrated into another...
The former however requires willingness from the defeated to do so, either because feeling unable to resist or because its own upper social echelons opted for collaboration...

That a single man or body of people would rule over a multitude of others was the undiscussed way of things in the whole ancient world...
Really still is :P

1 exactly that means that egyptians even in the end didnt accept it. if you could try to impose it to romans they would rebel too just like the egyptians but at least i will have the option to do the same in a what if scenarion
2 you said that phrourion laon can be build only in asia or at least it represents asian settlers in asia. i want a collony that will be able to recruit light to medium troops from all cultures and in all cities in rome ,carthage,nomad cities) just like in eb
3 maybe but when someone hears democrasy specially in this time athenian or roman example come to his mind
4 i am not saying what you say is wrong or ahistorical about goverments at least but i would like to have a what if scenario.what if the greeks tried to do an empire like the alexandros one(using greek but also local troops). th
5 in order not to bother you any more i tried to chane the name of some goverment buildings in expo desc buildings but it doesnt change

[Arjos]

you said that phrourion laon can be build only in asia or at least it represents asian settlers in asia. i want a collony that will be able to recruit light to medium troops from all cultures and in all cities in rome ,carthage,nomad cities)

And you can do that:

Metoikia Katoikon (hellenised locals) and Phrourion Laon (foreign natives). At the present moment, it still works, the only issue is that the Phrourion Laon converts to eastern imperial culture (but you can still recruit the units you are currently after in all provinces), which will be fixed...

What I highlighted in my posts will be the probable solution, because we have only two possible choices for conversion (unless another colony building tree will be set in place, which converts to european tribalism, but this would open the issue for forest and indian one for example. Taking way too many buildings slots in my view.)

[clone]

And you can do that:

Metoikia Katoikon (hellenised locals) and Phrourion Laon (foreign natives). At the present moment, it still works, the only issue is that the Phrourion Laon converts to eastern imperial culture (but you can still recruit the units you are currently after in all provinces), which will be fixed...

What I highlighted in my posts will be the probable solution, because we have only two possible choices for conversion (unless another colony building tree will be set in place, which converts to european tribalism, but this would open the issue for forest and indian one for example. Taking way too many buildings slots in my view.)

so you are saying that if i conquer rome(and every city) in the future i will be able to build phrourion laon(whichi means having already build laarchia) and recruit light to medium roman or italian unit(or simple native units)?
i have tested this building and right now you cant build it in italy(I have tried with epiros in both arpi and rome) while in some thrakian cities you can and to some you cant (i thing tylis)
.about conoly adding culture cant you make the same building give multiple religion depending on a hidden resourse
another reason i prefered the eb1 makedonian goverment buildings is because both their name and info signified what was the goverment(satrapia,symachos emphrouros,royal satrapie) while in eb2 some they dont . epistatia epi ellines doesnt signify the goverment simple who is governed.
thanks your the explanation by the way

[Malagriculus]

Regarding the Phrourioi Laon building:

I'm currently trying a campaign as Epeiros and after about 45 turns i was able to build one of these in Epidamnos. Since it allowed the recruiting of Illyrian units, it appears to be quite right there - if it wasn't for its Eastern Imperial culture bonus...

Now i'm thinking: maybe if i can match the conversion into Eastern culture with the same (or an even higher) amount of Western Hellenic (or Hellenic Poleis? I'm not sure what Epeiros home culture is called) conversion (through the appropriate buildings), could it end in a more or less stable situation?
But what buildings would match out? Obviously the Hellenistic Polis, but i'm not quite sure about it - i would find it rather helpful, if the building descriptions would contain exact information about the respective conversion boni in the finalized version.

Another thing is: does the Phrourioi Laon prevent the later establishment of an Native Hellenic Colonization building (i mean the katoikon ones... or how they are called... the ones that you get to build every 16 turns via hellenic metropolises - since it seems that i can't build one of those in Epidamnos, but that may be because the amount of hellenic culture is still to low... which is odd, because Epidamnos has the lowest level Hellenic Polis building from start on, but there was no change in it's culture values up to now... maybe 1%, since now it's 31%. Soooo maybe the cultural change happens rather slow, but then again the Phrourioi Laon brought a one percent change in only one turn.)

I played MTW2 and it's Stainless Steel mod for a long time, but EB2's cultural system seems to be a little bit more complicated and detailed - which, in my humble opinion - is quite interesting and fun to explore. Even if i don't seem to understand the in-game mechanics so far

[Arjos]

Afaik you cannot build native colonies and hellenic colonies in the same settlement. It is a choice between two options within the same building tree :)

[clone]

Afaik you cannot build native colonies and hellenic colonies in the same settlement. It is a choice between two options within the same building tree :)

why?ptolemies could recruit both local troops and helenic.why not make it that the like the eb system https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...post2053615035.