Ukraine Thread

[Gilrandir]

Why doesn't Kiev sacrifice a little pride, recognize election results and give eastern Ukraine a greater autonomy?

Once again: Lugandon denied any other option but complete independence. But even if it hadn't there is no way to make any kind of agreement with peple who don't control all of the territory they hold since they don't control all the hitmen there. For example, Minsk agreements were not recognized by Don cossacks in Lugansk region, Bezler's group in Horlivka, Chechens here and there and Motorola's group around Donetsk airport. There is no unified Eastern Ukraine, nor Novorossia, nor DPR, nor LPR. The area is divided between 12-17 gangs some of which obey no one (not even Putin).

I was pointing out that you can't place the blame for conflict on a side that's resisting what they perceive to be an outside threat coming into their area.

Once again: a side that's resisting now (and started resisting back in spring) is Russia. That is the side I place the blame on for the stalemate we are having now.

Not only Kiev refused, they physically isolated them from the rest of the country, thus alienating even the most moderate people there.

How do you know the bold? The source, please.

the Ukrainian army is still reluctant to do anything major, forcing Kiev to rely on ultranationalist paramilitary groups.

How do you know the bold? The source, please.
You seem to be rooted in what you claimed half a year ago and base your judgements on your own assumptions and wishful thinkings.
Reluctance of the Ukrainian army spotted in spring was explained by the fact that its propulsion was resisted by unarmed people (mainly women). The reluctance vanished since the nature of the resistance changed. And the minister of defense is the ex-head of the National Guard who you seem to include into "ultranationalist paramilitary groups". So, following your logics, that cutthroat can have no scruples whatever giving ordres to kill civilian Russian-speakers in heaps. Wait, I heard something like that before... Ah, yes. Russian TV showed a speaker who claimed that at one Ukrainian checkpoint near Kramatorsk Ukrainians don't let anyone pass through without taking money from them, one grandfather didn't have it so they took by force ten eggs he had with him. Another time they raped a 50+ woman who had an epileptic fit during the rape, but it didn't stop the perpetrators so they kept on doing their business while the whole bus (out of which they had pulled her) were watching them. Another "witness" said that Ukrainian soldiers fight in the East because they had been promised a piece of land and two slaves to till it.
Any more tales of horror you can add?

At this point, I'd support Kiev if they could pull a clean and efficient military operation to regain control with minimal civilian casualties

Like what Croatia did to Kraina?

What's Kiev strategy? To physically isolate that part of the country? To starve and freeze them to compliance? Despicable. And I'm truly amazed that some people's fear or hatred of Russia stop them from seeing that. They only need to start catapulting bodies with plague to go fully medieval at this point.

You should sell the last idea of yours to RT. They will be mighty glad and you will make some easy money.
And I'm truly amazed that some people's hatred of Ukraine stops them from seeing that what Ukraine is doing is not a punishment nor a way of forcing the recalcitrant part of it into something. For once, it is not the people of Donbas who are putting up the armed resistance now and the current armed authorities of Donbas will suffer no harm, it is the ordinary people who will, and Kiev is aware of that.
You seem to know so much of the current economic and financial situation in Ukraine to realize that Ukraine can't keep financing the territories that don't pay taxes into its budget. Even when they did they were heavily donated from the said budget, so the expenditures were not covered by the taxes. Now it is a forced measure applied to the areas where Ukraine can't control anything. Do you think the USSR should have paid pensions and salaries on the territories occupied by Germany in 1941-44?
Btw, if a person comes to the "Ukrainian part of Ukraine" he can receive his payments (if those are financed from the central budget).

as far as I know there's no English version of the text.

Russian:
http://www.osce.org/ru/home/123807?download=true
English:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025499736
Pay attention that Russia (via Zurabov) signed it (though it is not mentioned in Russian media), so it has some responsibilities too, no?

Russia could almost certainly have kept the separatists from holding "elections" if it wanted to. But far from that, they immediately recognised the results and called on the rest of the world to do the same.

Correction: Russia said that it respected the choice of the Donbas people. A day later Lavrov (iirc) said that "to recognize" and "to respect" are two different notions.