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[seireikhaan]

So you two are masons? Or is this instinct? Because your instinct about me isn't right either.

Masons? Us? No, I just know how GH operates. We share a bond, you see. WE ARE BROTHERS, BOUND BY AN OATH SEALED WITH THE BLOOD SACRIFICE AS OF THE OLD TIMES.

[GeneralHankerchief]

A mafioso would act exactly the same way. I'm not a fan of this defense at all.

So anytime somebody does anything that a mafioso might do, it merits a lynch? I made a post this day phase. If a mafioso makes a post this day phase too, then since I did a thing the mafia did, I should be lynched?

[landlubber]

You know what I meant. Trying to save himself to the eventual detriment of the town isn't striking me as townie, sorry, and your insistent defense of him isn't exactly warming me up to you either.

[GeneralHankerchief]

I thought this argument had been discredited in 2009, evidently not.

OPERATING UNDER THE PRINCIPLES THAT YOU ARE TOWN:

You have 100% knowledge and certainty that you are town and therefore, innocent. You are the only person that you have 100% certainty on. You may have various certainty levels, which obviously define and shape your votes, but only you yourself have that full 100%.

Because of this rare and wonderful certainty, from your personal POV, literally any lynch target is more appealing than yourself. So, between khaan and Monty last night, khaan knew that his own lynch, ahead of time, had a 100% chance of being incorrect for the town.

As for khaan's certainty levels about Monty? Who knows? It might have been 50%. It might have been 75%. It might have been 1%. But even if khaan was 99% certain that Monty was innocent, that's still a better play, for him, as town, to lynch Monty.

It's not "saving himself to the eventual detriment of the town" (what does that even mean? some people are instinctively better to leave alive?). It's playing the percentages and acting with limited information as best you see fit.

[landlubber]

My vote on Khaan stays. His vote was self-centered, bottom line, and I don't trust that. I've been nothing but helpful. If that gets me lynched, so be it. I've done as much as I can by this point.

[GeneralHankerchief]

"I can't think of a response that adequately addresses the above points and I've already committed to this lynch and I have no desire to change it because as mafia I'm looking for the easy target and not the accurate one"

[landlubber]

Not quite. I got beat this game. I was wrong on Visor, wrong on BSmith, and too late to lynch Khaan when I had the chance yesterday. If you two really are the last townies, it's over. My only hope is that both JHT and Ishmael are town, which I doubt. I take responsibility for my bad moves this game, and if we lose because two townies are unwaveringly convinced of my guilt, I hope you will too.

[Montmorency]

"I can't think of a response that adequately addresses the above points

It's not a good argument unless you're talking about chess pieces rather than actual players. Last-minute self-rescue rarely plays out well for the town, even if a townie is the one doing it.

[landlubber]

New theory: GH is mafia and is so assured of Khaan's innocence because he has perfect information. Khaan is going along with it because GH helped save him yesterday. Wouldn't that be something?

I'm still too sold on a Khaan lynch to want to switch, though.

[GeneralHankerchief]

It's not a good argument unless you're talking about chess pieces rather than actual players. Last-minute self-rescue rarely plays out well for the town, even if a townie is the one doing it.

Look, if you're in the position to save yourself, you're going to take it ten times out of ten. Doesn't matter if you're mafia, town, serial killer, cult leader, third-party, chief cook, or bottle washer. The only thing that this proved yesterday was that khaan was online.

At this point I'm actually getting a little weirded out from having to spend this much time in a critical phase defending a gameplay move that's been universally accepted for years.

[landlubber]

At this point I'm actually getting a little weirded out from having to spend this much time in a critical phase defending a gameplay move that's been universally accepted for years.

Well, considering that your accusation of me is too insubstantial to warrant any discussion, there isn't a lot else to talk about.

It's not a universal strategy to save yourself at any cost, it's really not. I never play that way as town. Making a desperate attempt to save myself would be nothing more than a counterproductive distraction, as it was when Khaan did it.

[landlubber]

Also, it's somewhat telling to me that you're willing to argue with Monty, someone who is confirmed town. If you won't take my advice, least you can do is take his.

[landlubber]

okay you know what

unvote, vote: GH.

Your actions these past two days are unfathomable to me from a townie perspective.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Just because Monty's confirmed town doesn't mean he's right. Death doesn't suddenly make you omniscient.

[GeneralHankerchief]

@johnhughthom @Ishmael

Get your butts in here, I need more people to drop truth bombs on.

(also it's statistically certain that at least one of you is mafia so kindly post so I can use them against you in the final round)

[GeneralHankerchief]

See, look, Csargo's been thanking my most recent posts. He's confirmed town too, does that counteract Monty's disagreement with me above? How does the death/argumentation/karma system work precisely?

[landlubber]

I wasn't saying he was automatically right about everything. I was saying that arguing with him accomplishes virtually nothing. The fact is that you've made a "case" on me in which you categorically refused to offer evidence, got Khaan to agree with you (presumably by defending him when it's very likely that no one else will), you've deflected any criticism against Khaan by claiming that his strategy is a settled argument (which it surely isn't if both Monty and myself dispute your logic), and complained about the direction of the conversation while offering no analysis of anyone's posts except the ones directly challenging you.

Going back further, you spent a lot of your energy in the early game trying to play up the whole "GH is rusty" shtick when it became clear that you made a critical error-- this was done to lower everyone's expectations, and it seems to have worked sublimely. You were also made severely uncomfortable by Winston's case on you, which was always valid. Finally, you played a critical role in lynching Monty (quoth GH, "CHAOS CHAOS CHAOS") for no discernible reason.

I've laid out a case for voting GH. If you're town, work with me. Argue with me. Present evidence that justifies your vote against me. Just please do something productive if you're on my side.

[seireikhaan]

I wasn't saying he was automatically right about everything. I was saying that arguing with him accomplishes virtually nothing. The fact is that you've made a "case" on me in which you categorically refused to offer evidence, got Khaan to agree with you (presumably by defending him when it's very likely that no one else will), you've deflected any criticism against Khaan by claiming that his strategy is a settled argument (which it surely isn't if both Monty and myself dispute your logic), and complained about the direction of the conversation while offering no analysis of anyone's posts except the ones directly challenging you.

Going back further, you spent a lot of your energy in the early game trying to play up the whole "GH is rusty" shtick when it became clear that you made a critical error-- this was done to lower everyone's expectations, and it seems to have worked sublimely. You were also made severely uncomfortable by Winston's case on you, which was always valid. Finally, you played a critical role in lynching Monty (quoth GH, "CHAOS CHAOS CHAOS") for no discernible reason.

I've laid out a case for voting GH. If you're town, work with me. Argue with me. Present evidence that justifies your vote against me. Just please do something productive if you're on my side.

Your logic is bad because we said so. Since that seems to be the requirement for actual analysis instead of, say, thinking about it, here, I'll justify my vote for you.

Well, here are my final bets given that I'm about to be officially dead:

Ishmael and landlubber or Khaan and GH. Winston will be NKed.

It's fine, I can vote for you because monty is innocent and he said you are one of the potential mafia pairs.

[landlubber]

Monty agreeing with me doesn't mean that your logic is automatically bad, and that's not what I said. It does mean that the argument is not settled, which is exactly what I said.
@GeneralHankerchief: I don't care if you do it publicly in thread, privately to me or someone else, or if you send a messenger pigeon to me; you need to give some evidence your vote for me.

[GeneralHankerchief]

No.

[landlubber]

And I'd like to reiterate-- nowhere do I say Monty is infallible. I said he's worth listening to.

[landlubber]

No.

I'm serious, we can use gchat or AOL or whatever people use for IM. I want a public case on me. I want robust, informed discussion.

[seireikhaan]

I'm serious, we can use gchat or AOL or whatever people use for IM. I want a public case on me. I want robust, informed discussion.

You want robust discussion, yet every time valid arguments have been brought to bear, you simply have said those are wrong. Can't have it both ways, pal.

[landlubber]

You want robust discussion, yet every time valid arguments have been brought to bear, you simply have said those are wrong. Can't have it both ways, pal.

I'm sorry, but that's simply not true. I laid out a case against GH, I'm practically begging for a real case against me, and I've done everything I can to try and figure out what's going on between the two of you. And, honestly, there haven't been arguments, I've only seen one argument, that anyone would have done as you did. I disagreed, I said that most townies in my experience are more willing for some self-sacrifice. I said that your unholy trinity of Monty-lynching seems coordinated, that there's something the town doesn't know. I've tried to spark discussion.

I'm absolutely flabbergasted if GH and Khaan are town, I really am. I take back what I said about being partly responsible for this loss. The game is in their hands at this point.

[El Barto]

GM note: Csargo and Montmorency are both dead, so they can neither be talked to nor voted for.

[landlubber]

By the way, if I seem on edge tonight, it's because I am, and it has a lot more to do with problems at home and moving back to college tomorrow than this game.

[seireikhaan]

I'm sorry, but that's simply not true. I laid out a case against GH, I'm practically begging for a real case against me, and I've done everything I can to try and figure out what's going on between the two of you. And, honestly, there haven't been arguments, I've only seen one argument, that anyone would have done as you did. I disagreed, I said that most townies in my experience are more willing for some self-sacrifice. I said that your unholy trinity of Monty-lynching seems coordinated, that there's something the town doesn't know. I've tried to spark discussion.

I'm absolutely flabbergasted if GH and Khaan are town, I really am. I take back what I said about being partly responsible for this loss. The game is in their hands at this point.

You wanna know what's "going on" between me and GH? Let's see. We were moderators-in-crime for a couple years and good friends outside of that. We've picked each other's brains on so many damn subjects there'd be no way to count, but needless to say, the subject of Mafia has been beaten to death. We've seen each other as scum plenty of times- hell, one time I *knew* he was mafia for an entire game and got to watch him as it unfolded(as I was the mastermind). That's why I don't think he's mafia. And for some reason I got scum roles all the damn time, so you can bet your rear end GH got his own feeling on me.

Stupid cases were made against GH earlier in the game based on him pm'ing someone(THE CRIME). So I defended him because the case was dumb. PM'ing people is not suspicious, especially not on day 1. In fact, it's borderline suicidal if anything goes wrong. Mafia don't want to put their ass on the line for a neutral role with nothing invested in them, especially when that role can't even help them. That's just idiotic. Mafia will let Visor die. Flat out. It is vastly more townie to reach out to someone who's going to get railroaded by a paranoid town.

Then you wanna know what happened with Monty? I'll freakin' tell ya. I mentioned to GH in private later on that people's minds had changed wind and they potentially rarin' to see me off. Me and GH were both previously voting for winston because we both agreed he was following a voting pattern we both have frequently used(and in fact, lapsed into) as mafia. There was a single random vote on Monty, which meant he was the only person to lynch to ensure I wasn't. I don't know how many times we both have to reiterate. If I know I'm town, why the hell would I let myself be lynched? That's not a noble sacrifice, that's damn dumb. So yeah, GH helped me out because he apparently thought there was less of a chance that I was mafia than Monty, and maybe because y'all have been harassing him the entire game over something THAT WASN'T SUSPICIOUS. You want someone to cooperate with you, maybe you shouldn't treat them like the damn bad guy the entire game.

[landlubber]

[...] y'all have been harassing him the entire game over something THAT WASN'T SUSPICIOUS. You want someone to cooperate with you, maybe you shouldn't treat them like the damn bad guy the entire game.

I've been cautious toward GH. I'm not positive, but I think this is my first vote on him the entire game. Yeah, I've said that he was suspicious, but so what? That's how the game goes. I was trying to get holistic reads on everyone.

This is what it sounds like to me: your friendship means more than this individual game (and I don't blame you for that). You trust each other. Fine. Great. But, if you two are both town, we've lost this game, because I'm the third. If Ishamel and JHT are the mafia, they'd happily lynch me. Game over. They win.

I don't have any cards left in my hand. Vote for whoever you want, I guess. I'm too far outside of your clique to be of any help to you, and that's very, very disheartening. I'm an optimistic person, but we've got no hope, because you've now condemned a townie for the sake of protecting each other. Nothing I say has changed your minds, so I may as well stop contributing. We've lost. No hard feelings. Let's try and keep cooperation in mind for the next go-round.

[seireikhaan]

I've been cautious toward GH. I'm not positive, but I think this is my first vote on him the entire game. Yeah, I've said that he was suspicious, but so what? That's how the game goes. I was trying to get holistic reads on everyone.

This is what it sounds like to me: your friendship means more than this individual game (and I don't blame you for that). You trust each other. Fine. Great. But, if you two are both town, we've lost this game, because I'm the third. If Ishamel and JHT are the mafia, they'd happily lynch me. Game over. They win.

I don't have any cards left in my hand. Vote for whoever you want, I guess. I'm too far outside of your clique to be of any help to you, and that's very, very disheartening. I'm an optimistic person, but we've got no hope, because you've now condemned a townie for the sake of protecting each other. Nothing I say has changed your minds, so I may as well stop contributing. We've lost. No hard feelings. Let's try and keep cooperation in mind for the next go-round.

A) Don't get a debbie downer, that's annoying. We're still waiting on the rest of the folks to show up. If you think me and GH have a hard vote set for you, don't. Knock that off.

B) I was not specifically referring to you, I was referring to the votes and mini-wagons that have occurred with regularity since GH first contacted Visor. Every time someone asks GH to defend himself. He did. Then I pointed out even more flaws with those accusations. Then that is promptly ignored. It has happened with regularity. If you think that's exasperating to me as someone who just *thinks* GH is innocent, imagine being him?

[seireikhaan]

And lastly, do you really think a mafioso just called in the last remaining players to try and make sure they voted? Let's say me and GH actually *are* the mafia team. We're sitting here lodging 2 votes on you, so just to make sure we get lynched nice and good, GH calls out everyone else so they can keep up their angry mob act that I had the gall to save myself.

Seriously, at this point the most suspicious thing about you is that you've been only half-engaged with us the whole time. You claimed you wanted robust discussion, but you only address half our points, at best. Give *us* something too.