IMMIGRATION thread

[Snowhobbit]

A state of emergency usually requires some kind of emergency. Since they hardly charged anyone after a lot of raids, why the state of emergency? And noone has to believe their emergency rules are fair.



That doesn't change that plenty of people around the globe complain about HOW they do it and TO WHOM they do it at times. Are they all wrong?



What does that have to do with this issue or are we back to "two wrongs make a right"?

I guess the November and January events were just regular things happening on a daily basis. I was unaware that you had access to the French intelligence services and have assessed that there is no real threat, most impressive. Fair or not, those are the rules.

Plenty of people complain here when we arrest rapists and murders, should we listen to them also? People complain about everything and anything, complaints alone do not make for a valid argument.

It has something to do with you believing that there is no reason for a state of emergency, that there is nothing going on in France and everything is just business as usual.

[Greyblades]

I don't know what phase of dismissal you're in but we tend to have laws and judges for a reason. These searches were warrantless and apparently mostly random if there were hardly any arrests. We have an entire police brutality thread in the Backroom where similar cases are frowned upon and yet here it is all fine because "terrorism and they're all brown", which is not a direct quote in case it makes you angry otherwise.

And if you were paying attention you would realize that my post was in no way an endorsement or even a condonement of their actions.

Were you not so eager to misiniterpret any post not in perfect agreement with your point of view and attempt to portray the person as irrational racists you would have seen that.

[Montmorency]

German and Arabic should therefore be obligatory for all students until graduation

Yeah, that's pretty silly. If you're going to have mandatory language instruction, have it for English and German, while leaving aside parallel language classes (also mandatory) in which students choose to study an available language, e.g. French, Spanish, Russian - and all the way through Latin, Arabic, and Mandarin Chinese, depending on staff availability in given schools or districts. That is, both English and German would be a part of all general curriculum, while 'Selective Language Study' would be language education classes, with each student choosing to study a language of their preference (again, based on available choices, but at least for European languages that shouldn't be a problem).

[Husar]

I guess the November and January events were just regular things happening on a daily basis. I was unaware that you had access to the French intelligence services and have assessed that there is no real threat, most impressive. Fair or not, those are the rules.

Plenty of people complain here when we arrest rapists and murders, should we listen to them also? People complain about everything and anything, complaints alone do not make for a valid argument.

It has something to do with you believing that there is no reason for a state of emergency, that there is nothing going on in France and everything is just business as usual.

IIRC the article mentions some 3200 raids with about 5 arrests. Please explain how that hints towards them having concrete evidence.
As for that's the rules, insert Godwin here...

And if you were paying attention you would realize that my post was in no way an endorsement or even a condonement of their actions.

Were you not so eager to misiniterpret any post not in perfect agreement with your point of view and attempt to portray the person as irrational racists you would have seen that.

I see, your post was essentially not saying anything. Well done then, go on.

[Montmorency]

I guess the November and January events were just regular things happening on a daily basis. I was unaware that you had access to the French intelligence services and have assessed that there is no real threat, most impressive. Fair or not, those are the rules.

Plenty of people complain here when we arrest rapists and murders, should we listen to them also? People complain about everything and anything, complaints alone do not make for a valid argument.

It has something to do with you believing that there is no reason for a state of emergency, that there is nothing going on in France and everything is just business as usual.

THat's all orthogonal to the point though. To turn in around: what do you know of the details of France's state-of-emergency policy, its current implementation, and the general conditions that permit it to be invoked? On the other hand, what in the abstract is the use of a state-of-emergency policy and how should it be formulated or regulated? These are the relevant questions here.

[Snowhobbit]

THat's all orthogonal to the point though. To turn in around: what do you know of the details of France's state-of-emergency policy, its current implementation, and the general conditions that permit it to be invoked? On the other hand, what in the abstract is the use of a state-of-emergency policy and how should it be formulated or regulated? These are the relevant questions here.

I know that it was implemented after one of the worst terror attacks in recent times on European soil. I know that there is not widespread complaint about abuse, and I know that the kill count has fallen dramatically after the steps were implemented. But sure, we can keep crying about Qurans on the floor, how many lives is that worth?

IIRC the article mentions some 3200 raids with about 5 arrests. Please explain how that hints towards them having concrete evidence.
As for that's the rules, insert Godwin here...

Yep, concentration camps next up. I dunno, I would have thought that you would become better at forming an argument after more than a decade on the forum, but you only seem to devolve. Sad to see.

[Montmorency]

I know that it was implemented after one of the worst terror attacks in recent times on European soil. I know that there is not widespread complaint about abuse, and I know that the kill count has fallen dramatically after the steps were implemented. But sure, we can keep crying about Qurans on the floor, how many lives is that worth?

A common rhetorical formula, but not an interesting argument with pertinent details or sound judgements. The basic question is the same as was asked in 2001 America regarding civil liberties vis-a-vis government emergency powers, whether the focus is on the efficacy, the legitimacy, the ethical stakes, or what-have-you. Your comment would be simplistic even by the standards of the 2001-contemporary discussion, but I'll break it down:

I know that it was implemented after one of the worst terror attacks in recent times on European soil.

What does that have to do with the specific conditions, obligations, and policies involved with such decisions?

I know that there is not widespread complaint about abuse

Do you? And whether or not there has been widespread complaint, or what even constitutes "widespread" is still tangential to the fundamental issue of specific powers and conditions involved, which is ultimately what we care about.

and I know that the kill count has fallen dramatically after the steps were implemented

The kill count? Well, if there is violence at a sporting event, and 12 hours later there is no longer violence, is it that the immediate police or security response to the disturbance is to be pointed at - and so there should henceforth be a strong security presence at sporting events - or is it that 12 hours after the event, everyone had already gone home?

But sure, we can keep crying about Qurans on the floor, how many lives is that worth?

That's not the question at hand.

[Fragony]

Just to be fair to @Fragony, I found one of these rare, crazy arabophile dhimmis you keep mentioning:

http://www.focus.de/politik/deutschl...?fbc=fb-shares

There is this german "education expert" who seriously suggested we should introduce Arabic as a second language in school that is a valid school language in general next to German (i.e. maths for example could be taught in German and Arabic even varying within a lesson as everyone should understand both). He justifies that by saying that we should prepare for the important transofrmations that will happen in the arabic world within the next decades and that will make it an important economic, cultural and political partner to whom we can then advertise ourselves better.

I have to say I laughed because this really does sound crazy and I can think of half a dozen languages I would rather give this position to, most importantly English (which Arabs can/should and do also learn...).
So yeah, it's almost like finding a yeti for me, but crazy multicultists do apparently exist.

Not so rare, but a good example

[Husar]

I know that it was implemented after one of the worst terror attacks in recent times on European soil. I know that there is not widespread complaint about abuse, and I know that the kill count has fallen dramatically after the steps were implemented. But sure, we can keep crying about Qurans on the floor, how many lives is that worth?

Montmorency has already adressed this really well, especially to the point about "widespread complaint about abuse" I would like to add two things:
1. The raids targeted a community that has raised "widespread complaint about abuse" for a long time now, so maybe you were just not aware of it.
2. It was also known for a while that a lot of French citizens of all colors think of their police as comparatively brutal, you can also count that as "widespread complaint about abuse" as far as I'm concerned.

Yep, concentration camps next up. I dunno, I would have thought that you would become better at forming an argument after more than a decade on the forum, but you only seem to devolve. Sad to see.

That's a nice personal attack that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
Regardless, my point was not so much about concentration camps but a general critique of your point that "these are the rules", which is easy to say as long as you agree with them but does not make the rules just or fair or morally supportable. I could have also mentioned pretty much every dictator or the Russian law that makes being homosexual in public a crime. What about North Korea? Do you have no qualms with their rules? Yes, I know, we are talking about France and it's certainly not North Korea, but a country does not have to be that for its rules to be inadequate, wrong or morally reprehensible. Not to forget that some big changes come in baby steps and people only realize it when it is too late.
I may have asked this before, can you explain how having warrantless searches of thousands of people, their entire homes etc. is within the spirit of western democratic culture?
Things like everybody is equal before the law, due process etc. all these pillars of justice seem to be out the window during this state of emergency, so yes, we should ask whether thie is warranted, both the state of emergency itself and the powers it gives to the government and police.

Can you, for example, show any attacks or plans for attacks that lasted for five months and would warrant having a state of emergency for that long? And if there is ample evidence, why have a state of emergency if you could easily get warrants with your evidence even without the state of emergency?

[Husar]

Here's an article in English: http://dailycaller.com/2016/02/03/ge...imary-schools/

“We would appreciate being a country of immigration and multiple languages,” Strothotte said. “Refugee children need to learn German and German children Arabic.”

Strothotte believes increased understanding of Arabic will have positive effects on Germany culturally, economically and politically.

[...]

“We must finally acknowledge that Arabic is a world language,” he said. “We have to stay on pace.”

[Pannonian]

Just to be fair to @Fragony, I found one of these rare, crazy arabophile dhimmis you keep mentioning:

http://www.focus.de/politik/deutschl...?fbc=fb-shares

There is this german "education expert" who seriously suggested we should introduce Arabic as a second language in school that is a valid school language in general next to German (i.e. maths for example could be taught in German and Arabic even varying within a lesson as everyone should understand both). He justifies that by saying that we should prepare for the important transofrmations that will happen in the arabic world within the next decades and that will make it an important economic, cultural and political partner to whom we can then advertise ourselves better.

I have to say I laughed because this really does sound crazy and I can think of half a dozen languages I would rather give this position to, most importantly English (which Arabs can/should and do also learn...).
So yeah, it's almost like finding a yeti for me, but crazy multicultists do apparently exist.

In the UK, what's not so rare is the professional ethnic offence finder. People who take up causes to take offence of one ethnic group or another on the basis of very little. And by professional ethnic offence finder, I mean every bit of the description, literally; someone in a paid position to represent all ethnic minorities, who will use their initiative to denounce each and every government action and inaction as racially biased and insensitive. What's bad about these twats is: firstly, their initiative in denouncing everything means things that actually matter are devalued; secondly, they are racist as well, denouncing others freely as bounty bars, bananas, and similar pejoratives. In some ways, they're even worse than neo-Nazis. Very, very few people, and no one in government, takes notice of neo-Nazis. But professional offence finders find a sizeable niche of sympathisers within the left, with their voice making governments of the left both less likely and less credible. They're scum like the neo-Nazis, but unlike neo-Nazis, they're supported by a sizeable cadre of idiots.

[Beskar]

I thought everyone was learning English so there was no need for other languages? Got Turks, Germans, Dutch, Serbs, Russians, Japanese, Swedes... All speaking English. Let's disband other languages! People are thinking too small with learning multiple.

Down with political correctness.

[Snowhobbit]

A common rhetorical formula, but not an interesting argument with pertinent details or sound judgements. The basic question is the same as was asked in 2001 America regarding civil liberties vis-a-vis government emergency powers, whether the focus is on the efficacy, the legitimacy, the ethical stakes, or what-have-you. Your comment would be simplistic even by the standards of the 2001-contemporary discussion, but I'll break it down:



What does that have to do with the specific conditions, obligations, and policies involved with such decisions?



Do you? And whether or not there has been widespread complaint, or what even constitutes "widespread" is still tangential to the fundamental issue of specific powers and conditions involved, which is ultimately what we care about.



The kill count? Well, if there is violence at a sporting event, and 12 hours later there is no longer violence, is it that the immediate police or security response to the disturbance is to be pointed at - and so there should henceforth be a strong security presence at sporting events - or is it that 12 hours after the event, everyone had already gone home?



That's not the question at hand.

Do they not have the right to a fair trial? Have there been extra-judicial executions or imprisonments, of citizens and foreign nationals? Unless you count the bombing of ISIS there has not, and it is thus not comparable to the 2001 American situation.

If there had not been terror attacks, would the measures have been implemented? That is why it is relevant.

Other than an Amnesty report about police using words and handcuffs while investigating, I have not seen any widespread complaining. You are of course welcome to prove otherwise.

Are you saying the events in November are comparable to a soccer game?

Husar was crying about the Quran, hence the question of how many people died a single Quran on a floor is worth.

Montmorency has already adressed this really well, especially to the point about "widespread complaint about abuse" I would like to add two things:
1. The raids targeted a community that has raised "widespread complaint about abuse" for a long time now, so maybe you were just not aware of it.
2. It was also known for a while that a lot of French citizens of all colors think of their police as comparatively brutal, you can also count that as "widespread complaint about abuse" as far as I'm concerned.



That's a nice personal attack that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
Regardless, my point was not so much about concentration camps but a general critique of your point that "these are the rules", which is easy to say as long as you agree with them but does not make the rules just or fair or morally supportable. I could have also mentioned pretty much every dictator or the Russian law that makes being homosexual in public a crime. What about North Korea? Do you have no qualms with their rules? Yes, I know, we are talking about France and it's certainly not North Korea, but a country does not have to be that for its rules to be inadequate, wrong or morally reprehensible. Not to forget that some big changes come in baby steps and people only realize it when it is too late.
I may have asked this before, can you explain how having warrantless searches of thousands of people, their entire homes etc. is within the spirit of western democratic culture?
Things like everybody is equal before the law, due process etc. all these pillars of justice seem to be out the window during this state of emergency, so yes, we should ask whether thie is warranted, both the state of emergency itself and the powers it gives to the government and police.

Can you, for example, show any attacks or plans for attacks that lasted for five months and would warrant having a state of emergency for that long? And if there is ample evidence, why have a state of emergency if you could easily get warrants with your evidence even without the state of emergency?

Yes, insinuations of being a Nazi are way more classy than critiquing your "style of arguing".

There is always complaint about abuse among those who choose to clash with law enforcement agencies. I am unaware of protesters being shot at in the streets or the government planting bombs to kill civilians however.

Well, this might be news to you, but we live with what is known as "Rule of law", and have additionally signed a whole bunch of treaties that even ban the death penalty, let alone concentration camps. But sure, keep making the argument that locking up people who break the law, and conducting police actions within the constraints of the law is somehow akin to the Third Reich, it really makes you look cool.

It is perfectly simple, everyone is equal before the law and the French law allows, certain conditions being fulfilled for a state of emergency. That state of emergency suspends or alters certain rights. But I forget, all Muslims in France are now locked up in Vichy death camps or being worked to the bone in the factories as slaves.

Now do excuse me while I go and call my friend the head of the French intelligence services to provide you with the details of prevented attacks.

[HopAlongBunny]

Maybe we need more clowns?

[Husar]

Husar was crying about the Quran

Please come back when you want to have a serious discussion, thankyouverymuch.

[Snowhobbit]

Please come back when you want to have a serious discussion, thankyouverymuch.

Please return once you have mastered the ability to argue without going "Holocause in 3.2.1." :)

[Greyblades]

In the UK, what's not so rare is the professional ethnic offence finder. People who take up causes to take offence of one ethnic group or another on the basis of very little. And by professional ethnic offence finder, I mean every bit of the description, literally; someone in a paid position to represent all ethnic minorities, who will use their initiative to denounce each and every government action and inaction as racially biased and insensitive. What's bad about these twats is: firstly, their initiative in denouncing everything means things that actually matter are devalued; secondly, they are racist as well, denouncing others freely as bounty bars, bananas, and similar pejoratives. In some ways, they're even worse than neo-Nazis. Very, very few people, and no one in government, takes notice of neo-Nazis. But professional offence finders find a sizeable niche of sympathisers within the left, with their voice making governments of the left both less likely and less credible. They're scum like the neo-Nazis, but unlike neo-Nazis, they're supported by a sizeable cadre of idiots.

Fortunately they are mostly only found in the opinion section of the guardian and thus are largely ignorable.

[Greyblades]

Please come back when you want to have a serious discussion, thankyouverymuch.

Because two wrongs make a right? If an Englishman stabbed someone with a knife in London should they raid your house and lead you naked outside in the middle of the night because you're an Englishman, too? Seems right in the spirit of the Magna Carta, no?

And this is why we need lynch mobs and trials by ordeal back!

[Pannonian]

Fortunately they are mostly only found in the opinion section of the guardian and thus are largely ignorable.

They help perpetuate right wing governments by discrediting the left.

[Greyblades]

Hey man, I said they were ignorable, I didnt say noone listens to them.

[Husar]

https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...f1&oe=577076ED

[Sarmatian]

https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...f1&oe=577076ED

Very true, but, to be fair, it is only true here. In India, they are individuals we represent the whites. Rest of the world is just as racist as the west is.

They just have less money and influence.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Oh no, he is serious.

He can trace back his linage to some 600 hundred minor Jarl who lived near Västervik on his fathers side, he however has a decidedly Roman name and English upbringing so does not conform to his own definition of Swedish, but proudly says about his heritage.

Close, it was around 900-1,000 AD his name was Tord - he built the first Church in the region.

The joke was that I do have a Swedish name - Wallinder - and my father is Swedish by nationality and I'm roughly 25% Swedish by blood.

However, I would not claim to be Swedish.

[Greyblades]

https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...f1&oe=577076ED

I wasnt expecting you to actually improve, but I at least expected you to be interesting.

[Fragony]

Lesson learned, from Russia with love http://dailycaller.com/2016/02/04/re...-next-morning/

go team Russia, if even Norway expells you for bad behaviour...

[Brenus]

"For example, many Soviet atheists were good at killing priests and destroying buildings of great architectural and historic value (aka churches)" They probably were. Do I side with them? What a curious question indeed: so, no. I mean for the part of "great architectural and historic value". Do you have clear example of atheists (Soviet) killing priest in kind of auto-da-fé (meaning not during war times)or it is just part of the rhetoric?
And as destruction of "holly" buildings, the faithful and believers are way ahead in the contest, when it is about to destroy buildings of faith from the others faiths, from the Christians destroying the Pagan sites in Europe then South America (well, around the world), or Christians killing priests of the slightly different Christians and their temples on the top of them, or will the destruction of Mosques within the Muslim religion do? And of course the burning of synagogues by all the others. Don't worry, I do include in this list (not exhaustive one) the Pagans and Polytheists in the description.
The Cathedral of Lyon (The Primatiale des Gaules (Fourvieres), not the other one (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyon_Cathedral) was built on the top of a Roman temple, itself build on a Gaulish Temple, itself built on a first inhabitants holly grove of the site...
And I supposed we all aware of what happen the Cathedral of Constantinople when the town became Istanbul...

[Snowhobbit]

I wasnt expecting you to actually improve, but I at least expected you to be interesting.

I think it would be better for you if you only expect him to become worse. At least then you can't be disappointed :)

Close, it was around 900-1,000 AD his name was Tord - he built the first Church in the region.

The joke was that I do have a Swedish name - Wallinder - and my father is Swedish by nationality and I'm roughly 25% Swedish by blood.

However, I would not claim to be Swedish.

And would this be because you were actually born and raised in UK with UK values? Or because the blood quota isn't high enough? :P

[Husar]

I wasnt expecting you to actually improve, but I at least expected you to be interesting.

If you're trying to condition me, I suggest you get a dog.

[Beskar]

Hey look, it is my avatar.

[Gilrandir]

In another case recorded by Amnesty, police forced open the door of an elderly man with heart problems, causing him to faint. He was later taken to hospital in an ambulance, while his daughters - one of whom is disabled - were handcuffed and screamed at by officers.

A possible perspective:
If a woman sees something like that happen to her family member she is likely to get hysteric, and this hysterics is as often as not stopped by slapping her face. The police equivalent to face slapping is hadcuffing and sceaming at her.