Org Promotion

[edyzmedieval]

Lets not.... Because.... Without a serious index for all TW-games in place, not much else suggested here will actually matter or have much effect anyhow. This is especially true long term. Its not about some damn short-term fix but to actually make this place relevant and active again. The site needs an index that actually allows and enables that. Again, it all starts with the index... So, lets start where it matters the most - the beginning. You don't start in the middle and worry about the foundation later, now do you? Same thing applies here.

- A

Ax, I'm referring to the fact that the index problem, the mods know about it and you have explained it in depth already. What I wanted to say is that, apart from the index problem, which will be needed to be solved, let's think of other ideas ON TOP of the index problem.

The index doesn't alone solve the membership problems if we do not have the members.

[Axalon]

i heartily agree. if you'd like to improve the site then lets focus on bringing what people we already have together.

Its a fine sentiment in general and all, but have a quote...

...thinking in terms of “Org-community” as one supposed homogenous “team”/group - its not. Or even views the TW-community as a homogenous group of people - its not. These notions are just inadequate, obsolete and lazy oversimplifications that we could do without. As it is, both are highly heterogeneous, and get increasingly so, for each and every new game-release and year. The very idea of a TW-community might have functioned - well enough - back in 2000-2005, but it does not in 2016. Same thing applies to the “Org-community”…

There are so many and different TW-games these days that they no longer can seriously serve as a common enough ground to build a sense of actual community around, its merely a poor and lazy catch-phrase to cover it all. That role has been effectively transferred to each individual game or activity (of choice). The games are different, and so are the people that play them. Some folks prefer TW-X while others are totally into TW-Y yet both are dubbed TW-games. Management has completely failed to consider, let alone act on this. And TW-X will always serve as a much stronger force of generating a sense community because it provides much more common ground between its players then the umbrella-concept of TW ever will.

The reality here is that we have micro-communities, clustered around a single game or activity (of choice) - and that we will continue get more and more of these, as more games are released. Its also possible that individual might select to be active in more then one micro-community at a time, but we can not, and should not force it. Regardless, management has failed to grasp any of this, and as result done nothing as to adjust this site to this reality. And I can guarantee that recognizing and adapting fully to the concept of micro-communities will somehow be required element in order to secure that “win” for this place. Most visitors come here for the games, specific games and/or activities. If this place can not attractively enough cater too and offer sexy enough stomping grounds for that, it will lose that visitor. ...As is exactly what has happened here.

Now… If a micro-community is sacrificed or forced somehow as to serve a sites general “super-community” at large - for whatever end - I will always be against it. To me, its plain wrong, and it will eventually kill this (or any) sites chances to seriously compete and grow, long term for sure. Rather, think in terms of what serves each micro-communities the best and first, and a sites general super-community second. If you manage to do that, you will have won a great victory right there and then for this site, long term. Working with the micro-communities is the way forward, working against or forcing them somehow to conform to externally motivated or serving goals (regardless the kind), is not. Every game obviously have a micro-community somehow, think rather in terms of what serves every such specific micro-community the best and individually, and this place will probably prosper somehow (in general). Thinking only and typically in terms of a general site super-community and it probably won't... That's my analysis. And so far, I have seen little that would suggest otherwise. (And this is not me saying that all super-community efforts should be abandoned on principle - just be cautious and careful with that stuff.)

- A

[Axalon]

On one interesting note, Axalon's fix is undoing edyzmedieval's fix for Warhammer: Total War. Instead of having empty/quiet forums within a game section, Avalon is suggesting they be on the main index, bloating it with sub-forums that receive next to no use.

Maybe I’m reading you all wrong, but you look at this “Axalon-fix” with a short-term-only perspective - expand your perspective. The suggestions on that was devised with a long-term perspective and general competitiveness in mind, not short-term fixes and cosiness. A section that might be empty to today, need not necessarily stay that way forever, or be true for tomorrow. That is - IF - we can bother too offer/build up attractive enough settings for each game, ready for instant use - whenever the chance comes. My drafted model enables such instant use, it enables the possibility for people to start building up a section and micro-community there - whenever they like too - simply by the generous infrastructure offered there - generous enough to be seriously hard to pass on. Which is basically the whole point. Generating activity and interest by advantageous, attractive, and overtly dedicated settings - effectively competing. This regardless the game. That in turn drastically increases the sites overall chances of hitting home for every visitor that comes here, regardless of her preferences. If we got all games covered with equal measure, we will hit home be sheer default… The overall chance for him/her staying here increases big time - "this place have all I need, are interested in and more... The other sites don't have all that, like this, or as visible..." And you basically hooked yourself another interested member, willing to stick around some more, possibly posting here as well. That’s the general idea with my draft…

The "Edyz-fix" (on warhammer) does hardly afford any of that. It does not even consider such things as it its only focuses on short term cosiness and goals. While long term, its actually crippling/damaging a section to serve some short-term-only supposed cosy feeling. Why? It disables the sections chances to grow and compete with other sites counterparts - simply because it does not afford or allow attractive enough settings for people interested in that game (Warhammer in this case). It bunches up things, it decreases index-visibility and overview on what’s happening in that area. The very stuff that makes it less competitive with other sites, structurally speaking. As people will and can get better settings and infrastructure elsewhere, they will naturally will go there, instead of here. As long as this place can offer generous settings for TW-game1, it got a chance to grow and compete. Failing that, this place end up with no chance in that particular game. That's the difference here between the two “fixes”. A chance (somehow) for growth, or no (or disabled) chance for growth.

And yes, this do come at the price that the index will be larger, this is true - if implemented. Then again, a larger index is a small and easy price to pay as to increase this sites chances for survival - I think anyways. Bunching stuff together (especially things that do not naturally belong together) to make short term gains in "cosy", typically means slow death in general.

Speaking of popular forums which use a similar layout, there is Paradoxplaza which the structure of that was originally inspired from, as it provided an area for people to contribute in general, then specific sub-forums for dedicated space.

I can only speak for myself, and… That (Paradoxplaza) layout just suck, even for such games, hell for any games. Personally, I would eagerly go elsewhere if I was presented a choice. In terms of TW, as long as the TWC exists, that's probably the place where I would go, as most folk already have. Much for the same reasons I would imagine. I'll take that superior TWC-index any day over that poor Paradox-index layout.

This kept the game community more unified opposed to more spread out.

I don’t buy that a sites general super-community is a healthy or viable way of approaching things or a much useful perspective anywhere actually - or how to successfully construct a strong and flexible index for that matter. That Paradox-layout essentially serve as a warning example of what we should NOT do. Its riddled with flaws, failures and short-comings. And as long as the TWC exists, this place have little choice but to compete on those terms (thank god for the TWC!), as it simply kills any such layout all over. It outshines and outdoes it in every turn, making it plain irrelevant. As is essentially what have happened to this site.

Just read post:65 again… And think over what I am trying to say there about micro-communities…

The other suggestion was simply reversing the order the games were presented in, so older games at the top and newer games at the bottom. If this 'fix' was really so clear-cut, I would have done it already. But honesty, that change will have no impact on anything.

Not entirely true… What I actually did do in that draft, was to use a chronological order in my forwarded index-draft as I had only two rational options to go with - chronological or reversed chronological order. I selected the former as that is the one most rarely used in various TW-forums thus far. A chronological order would (at least in a small way help) set this place apart more then just doing what everyone else already does (using a reversed chronological order) - while still remaining perfectly easy to understand and follow all the same. In truth it makes little difference to me personally which order is used of the two, but I think I prefer the chronological one, myself.

Regardless, it will have impact on the site somehow, and there is zero doubt about it. So declaring that it “will have no impact on anything.” - is simply untrue (or BS, whatever you prefer). Obviously it will set this place apart from the rest – as already mentioned. It would also make the short-term supposed "Warhammer-problem" with inactive/unused sub-sections/forums disappear all the way down to the bottom of the index - short term anyways. Long term that should not matter much, if all things are properly set up (for Warhammer that is). Thirdly, and this is the most significant part (I think), as it is, short term, the MTW1-section and the RTW1-section are both probably among the top3 strongest/most active micro-(TW-)communities on this site at this point - why should these folks have their games placed near the bottom of a site, when that very site is clearly screaming for activity? These sections are more active then essentially everything else TW-wise, especially if we include mods in that. Makes little sense right? A chronological order would actually handle that more effectively then a reversed order would, as the latter places (almost) all and (currently) less active TW-games ahead of these two.

So... It certainly can have an impact on something for this site - that is - if we bother to examine things seriously enough. The "no impact on anything"-notion is without substance and its untrue. It will clearly have an impact on something, if applied on this site, there is little doubt about that. It would be very good news for RTW1 and MTW1, if implemented, that much is clear... It would also be bad news for Attila and RTW2, that much is also clear. So, it will have impact, alright...

I have made minor changes to the index, and elsewhere based on posts in here already, it is part of the practice of adapting and reacting to feedback.

Again, it’s the big changes that this place really needs, the sooner you get on that, the better.
I have already helped you with a basic draft. I will try to help you some more - if you let me.

- A

[Axalon]

Ax, I'm referring to the fact that the index problem, the mods know about it and you have explained it in depth already. What I wanted to say is that, apart from the index problem, which will be needed to be solved, let's think of other ideas ON TOP of the index problem.

The index doesn't alone solve the membership problems if we do not have the members.

Naturally, and for the time being, I’ll leave all that to you, as I am hardly opposed to any of that… Hopefully, I will get to that point as well, once I can see that the index is actually happening in a satisfactory and sensible fashion. And, once the STW1 and MTW1-sections are decent and presentable enough too (my fave games) - I’ll join you (and others) on that note - but I am simply not there yet. As for all the other TW-games, I’ll generally and gladly leave that to the folks that know that stuff and such details better then I do. I’m sure there are folk ready to step up for their fave game here – whatever that may be…

Edyz, if you want/prefer to call for a thread-
split or something, I will not fight you for it.

- A

[Axalon]

What do we want to talk about? If there is something we want discuss, we need to start a thread. Or we need to find a new thread and join in the discussion - especially if it was started by an new patron and definitely if they are new to the TW games. We need to engage them and draw upon our experiences to help them. Their excitement with discovering a new game might just re-ignite our passion for it as well. We all want to talk TW like in the good old days, but we seem to have stopped making the effort to do so. Discussions just don't happen. We have to contribute, because in the beginning, that is why the Org was so good. We had exceptional, in-depth and lively discussions.

This part, I like…

The Org didn't write articles, have contests (or not many), or other such manufactured content. The Org's content was from us, the patrons. Be it inter-clan banter, strategy and tactical discussions, game mechanics analysis, AARs, guides and mods, we the patrons did it for the love of the games.

This part not so much… And I would definitely say that these notions are, and certainly was, part of the overall problem. Manufactured content, will generate interest somehow, somewhere. Fleeting chatter that do not lend itself for any kind of third party use later on – not so much…

Of course, back then, things were simple in that there were only a couple of TW games and we were intensely focused on those games. Today we have about 10 TW games covering a variety to eras that may or may not be our personal cup of tea. Add to that an evolution/revolution of the TW game systems which not all of us have been fond of. This leaves us with a huge index (had to mention that) and a shrinking patron-base that is further diluted by such a broad spectrum of games. Such is our current predicament.

All this is true, and I think you should take it to the next level – recognize, accept and respect the micro-communities as that is part of what needs to be done here. After all, that is the kind of future we can expect, regardless if we may like it or not. I will also comment on your index-remark – of course. That huge index you talk about is a rather small necessity as to ensure that this place can compete and thus survive. Its virtual space, it’s a small price to pay for keeping this site (alive)…. I would think… There, I had to mention that… :)

The Org staff can do some things with tools at our disposal. However, the Org staff did not make the Org great. The patrons made the Org great. So, are we up for the challenge to begin the climb back to our former glory? Um, that is, after the index gets fixed, of course.

Even if that is supposedly true back in 2000-2005, you can be very sure that you guys in staff/management will have too be great in your own right in 2016 - in order for this site to get another chance at “glory”. Like it or not, you are a part of the solution, an active part, not passive. I suggest you consider increasing your manpower as to deal with that reality (if at all possible, double up on moderators or something). And the sooner you realize this, the better… My take on this...

Um, that is, after the index gets fixed, of course.

Of course… Lets make it happen then, shall we? :)

- A

[Axalon]

I wonder how much of the Org's failure to attract new members in more recent years has to do with the rise of Reddit. Because Reddit has such a big user base and hundreds of different subreddits I wouldn't be surprised if people go straight to Reddit when they're looking for an online community instead of trying to find a dedicated fan site.

I think the "internetz" has room for both... And it probably serves different kind of needs (I would imagine). Personally, I have not even bother with or explored Reddit at all... That's just me...

I think traditional forums like this one are better for long winded, in-depth discussions...

Quite possibly... Still there is room for both, I would think... We can be certain that the near monopoly this site had TW-wise around 2000 will never come back, and therefore it needs adjust and act accordingly. Adapt and overcome essentially. Besides, I love them "long winded, in-depth discussions"... Especially so on my fave games - that's basically what I am in business for! (More or less anyways.) The Whole "TLDR"-routine, is just a poor excuse for not making an real effort, or lacking the talent for it to begin with - this on general terms, of course. I have never really seen the supposed value of that thing. Sorry all you "TLDR"-believers - you are just a bunch of lazy, untalented and worthless bums or some such along those lines... :) A bit more seriously, this is a text-based forum, if "you" can't bother yourself to read and write more then a few words - what the hell are you doing here?!? ...Out of all places? ...You know?

The Org is like a small business getting out-competed by Wal-Mart.

True up to a point... That is if this site fails to adapt and specialize... Obviously it will be essentially futile to even try to compete on "Wal-Marts" own strong points... Another lesson that the staff here needs to recognize and deal with (if not done already).

- A

[Tuuvi]

I think the "internetz" has room for both... And it probably serves different kind of needs (I would imagine). Personally, I have not even bother with or explored Reddit at all... That's just me...



Quite possibly... Still there is room for both, I would think... We can be certain that the near monopoly this site had TW-wise around 2000 will never come back, and therefore it needs adjust and act accordingly. Adapt and overcome essentially. Besides, I love them "long winded, in-depth discussions"... Especially so on my fave games - that's basically what I am in business for! (More or less anyways.) The Whole "TLDR"-routine, is just a poor excuse for not making an real effort, or lacking the talent for it to begin with - this on general terms, of course. I have never really seen the supposed value of that thing. Sorry all you "TLDR"-believers - you are just a bunch of lazy, untalented and worthless bums or some such along those lines... :) A bit more seriously, this is a text-based forum, if "you" can't bother yourself to read and write more then a few words - what the hell are you doing here?!? ...Out of all places? ...You know?



True up to a point... That is if this site fails to adapt and specialize... Obviously it will be essentially futile to even try to compete on "Wal-Marts" own strong points... Another lesson that the staff here needs to recognize and deal with (if not done already).

- A

I agree with your points, personally I dislike reddit's nested comment system and karma scoring and I like the way conversation flows on old fashioned forums like this one much better. I don't think reddit is superior to the Org in every way, I just speculate that when newcomers to Total War are looking for an online community they're going to reddit instead of here, which is a factor in this site's decline.