Chess - Game Thread [Concluded]

[Kagemusha]

I hate posting with phone. Having five thumbs on each hand does not help..

[Slaan]

I think Logig is far better lynch then Chox at this point. Lurk for a ehile and wait to get out eith evetual counter wagon. Cheess!

Hm, I'm torn tbh. Logic could've had real rl issues and if he can start being more active starting next day that would be good... Chox on the other hand seems to have displayed his commitment to this game and it doesnt look like it'll get better.... Then again my read on Logic is a bit stronger and his lynch would give us max infos after he was talked about so much so I'll stay on Logic me thinks

[Dp101]

Zack I'm kicking you out of my town until further notice. I think Monty is right about you.

Well I think this is the towniest he’s ever been in any game I’ve played with him. I haven’t gone through and checked in what ways it is different, but just because someone’s different doesn’t make them scum.

[Slaan]

Oh he is going to be among the most difficult reads you ever get.

I can show you some of his scum games if it helps, thing is, he's also got a town game that's slowly evolving towards what you're seeing in this game, and it used to look a lot more like his scum game, which is why I gave up on reading him for a long time.

I think his town game is actually getting separation now.

Hm k. Then we could just lynch him today and save us the trouble going forward? ;) (j/k in case it's requried)

I've also decided to not read up on older games of you guys, just don't have the time/WIM... mostly WIM ^^. I also feel its often better to gain meta by playing ppl than reading up on past games where you already know their alignment going in... not sure on that point though. If I make it to endgame I'll reconsider for the then still living players maybe but certainly not D1 :).

[Askthepizzaguy]

I don't particularly feel like this thread turning into another exercise of someone screaming over and over about a single read, drowning everything else out, and it having a ~rand chance of actually being correct in the meantime.

At least Pizza's more cooperative about it than Kami.

Thanks for looking at Logic, but I think you missed one of my biggest points and didn't look for it.

You saw his posts in another game as town, when he accused people, does he not consistently just say this post is scummy this person is a wolf I think this makes you more townie, his questions if any are more direct and mean what they appear to mean on the surface?

That's a highly highly consistent quality of his town game. He doesn't ask rhetorical questions or questions that undermine people in that manner, he doesn't do passive aggression. He's not highly aggressive but when he does it, it's pointed, and in fact, he does far more aggression (despite how mild it feels) in games than defending himself or anyone else.

And all of that solving is pointed and direct, not passive aggression.

I get how you're arriving at the conclusion that I'm just tunneling because I am, but if I'm tunneling on the right person and you're missing the biggest reason why it's right, I feel like we missed the chance for our minds to arrive at the same place.

I won't ask you to look again, but it was a massive part of what I wanted you to look for and I don't think you were looking for it. You found other stuff and I believe you're town, but I still think you missed the damning stark difference.

[Askthepizzaguy]

this post feels like a wolf prepping for a wolf flip

Disagree.

I think Zack is realizing I'm getting that wolf flip despite the fact that he argued against it and is now looking for more scapegoats to push tomorrow.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I think thats towny from Fred. Same thing happened in the wild west game that he started to feel sorry for the guy under immense pressure and fred was town there. Not that its not fakeable etc etc but it's in line with his prev town play so thats :top:

Agreed, plus Logic is just the kind of guy I'd feel really bad about badgering any further than I have. He's really sympathetic regardless of his alignment.

I like him a lot. Fred's reaction to his push feels really good.

[Dp101]

Disagree.

I think Zack is realizing I'm getting that wolf flip despite the fact that he argued against it and is now looking for more scapegoats to push tomorrow.

I feel that this statement comes from a tunneled perspective. You see it as coming from a wolf because you are already so certain of your push.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I'm still comfortable with my vote, but GH is giving me a scummy vibe too.

I don't care for this either.

Yeah, despite my misgivings about EB, I think he shouldn't be lynched here today.

He's the low hanging fruit, seriously.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Zack
pizza
Monty
Fredwood
Dp101

Townpile.

What Zack has been doing with the early towncred looks worse and worse. I think he's trying to manipulate the town from his lofty perch in most people's town piles, and push bad lynches and defend the correct lynchees, since he won't get punished for it.

GH
Logic
El Barto
Manasi
choxorn

scumpile

Not GH at all, I don't think. Not Barto this early. I feel like he's just vulnerable and a possible get for the scums.

Otherwise we're really in close agreement.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Slaan
Csargo
Kage
Cuth
reinoe
Xiahou

remainder

Slaan easily town, reinoe still easily town too imo.

No bad vibes from Kage or Cuth at all.

Not much from Xiahou but given the lack of pressure on him, and the attention so focused elsewhere, the thread is a field of dreams for a scum to plop themselves in and get a bunch of posts out there so they are not even being considered. It's such a level 1 move.

I don't think Xiahou's lack of posting is something that should be held against him. He's gonna come out and my prediction is he'll end up town when he does. His couple of posts were also nice. Not enough to town read but they were good.

[Askthepizzaguy]

You're making me feel you should be even higher.

Very nice work if you're scum.

+1 Monty's good.

By post 919 he's made seriously impressive and game-winning posts if he's scum. He's good but the vibe I should be getting from him is neutral /vaguely townie / vaguely scummish if he's scum. I shouldn't get a strong read off of what he's doing, because in the middle is the best place for him when he's scumming, and it's where he almost invariably ends up, too.

No, Monty's a strong town read here by now. I'm not just impressed by his work, because he's a mega hard worker as scum. The kind of content that he's specifically giving always makes him town, and I've probably never ever said that before about Monty.

[Winston Hughes]

Vote: Logic

[Askthepizzaguy]

If Logic flips wolf I'm going to start looking realy hard at GH btw... in the wild west game he also tried to save a mafia buddy by going after Fredwood.

That being said I don't mind his attitude rn, doesnt hurt to look further than the 'easy' lynches so that's fine

After the bold, look at Zack.

[Askthepizzaguy]

If you lay out your problems with me concisely ATPG I'll try to respond to them to the best of my current ability.

I am sorry I didn't get to this quickly. I might have answered it already, but if not, nudge me.

If I lynch some of your suspects and they turn out to be a wolf, I might still call for you to be lynched. Some of those interactions look bad.

Knowing that, would you still help me lynch them if you think they are a wolf?

Let's say I gave it two shots. Logic being the first to go, choxorn second, or vice-versa. Let's say both flip wolf.

I think that's what is gonna happen. If I list your name in the POE after that, are you still gonna help me lynch them?

I'll give you one more chance to not be lynched if you help me lynch a deep wolf after that, but otherwise I might come knocking on your door.

Also I'll be dead by then if I'm right so someone else is gonna have to hold you to this.

[Sooh]

Vote count:

Pizza (1): Manasi

Zack (1): Xiahou

Logic (6): Pizza, Dp101, Slaan, Choxorn, Kagemusha, Winston Hughes

Reinoe (1): Fredwood

El Barto (1): Csargo

Choxorn (5): Montmorency, Zack, GH, Reinoe, Logic

Xiahou (1): El Barto


Not voting (1): Cuthillius,

With 17 players there are 9 to hammer.


EOD1:

[Askthepizzaguy]

Well I think this is the towniest he’s ever been in any game I’ve played with him. I haven’t gone through and checked in what ways it is different, but just because someone’s different doesn’t make them scum.

You and I often disagree on who is being townie or not.

I get why you and most other people have him as town, I did too. That being said, ever since I put him at the top of my town he's been doing his best to capitalize on his town cred and get people to not listen to me and to take control of the thread. I expect that he'll do this, but specifically what he's been doing and how and who, all looks extremely bad if my reads outside of him were correct.

He's deep wolfing extremely well right now, more than he's towning, imo. If I had a vig shot I'd shoot him tonight since he's never gonna be lynched because only me and Monty can even see it.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I feel that this statement comes from a tunneled perspective. You see it as coming from a wolf because you are already so certain of your push.

50/50

Yeah, you're probably right. But I think this is equally likely as of now. Since he won't die by town lynch I'd have to vig him, that's the only way to tell if I'm right.

If he flips wolf, the wolf team is utterly destroyed. His plan of action is just obvious. It can only be to his benefit if he never dies.

[Dp101]

You and I often disagree on who is being townie or not.

I get why you and most other people have him as town, I did too. That being said, ever since I put him at the top of my town he's been doing his best to capitalize on his town cred and get people to not listen to me and to take control of the thread. I expect that he'll do this, but specifically what he's been doing and how and who, all looks extremely bad if my reads outside of him were correct.

He's deep wolfing extremely well right now, more than he's towning, imo. If I had a vig shot I'd shoot him tonight since he's never gonna be lynched because only me and Monty can even see it.

Look, if it’s me and him in F3, I’ll vote him, because he should not be alive at that stage, but before then, I don’t think it’s a good option.

[Askthepizzaguy]

This is why I try not to go too hard in the paint on D1 as a wolf. If you ever die early when you do, the spew is insane. Gives town a lot of free townies and damns some partners too perhaps.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Look, if it’s me and him in F3, I’ll vote him, because he should not be alive at that stage, but before then, I don’t think it’s a good option.

That's why I won't vote him. You won't be convinced until you see his card.

When you do and it is a wolf, the game is basically solved. He did too much today.

[Askthepizzaguy]

So now you're trying to direct what my response should have been? Saying that I have sympathy, something that I stated within the meat of the post, so it wasn't that much of an inference that the unfortunately meant that despite my humanity I'm likely to vote him. The wording is only misleading because you're actively altering the meaning.

Either way, I posted it because I felt like it and wanted people to know where I was at.

Couple that with your inference that I should not vote Logic because he's consensus and lolconensusisneverrightyouguyslol, then calling me lazy for not "voting" my top scumread (when Logic is a relatively top scum read)...tis strange.

My gut says this post is great for Fredwood. Not saying GH is bad, in fact I don't think he is. Just think this is in line with what I've seen from him before. GH began with an attack on his process, so Fredwood is responding on that level. I also am feeling the same frustration with the lolconsensus argument. It's not an argument, it's an omen, and I don't believe in omens. Oh no, people are all voting someone, that must mean something. It doesn't. And it's been like 5 people or 6 people at a time. It's not an enormouswagon. It even got eclipsed by the choxorn voters. No such complaints that everyone thinks it it must be false have occurred. Attacking these arguments without necessarily drawing an alignment conclusion from it feels extremely natural, I don't feel it is passive aggression even if it has a similar-looking shape. It's questioning GH's process and methods in response to GH questioning his.

I feel like this kind of friction is going to happen on a day 1 where everyone has their own methods and ideas and all are struggling to win the debate and get their way. Even when people agree on suspects they begin to bicker on process.

It's like when town is chasing two scums in a mash but they still blow up at each other when the "wrong" one is getting pushed because everyone has to lead and get their way.

A perfect day is rare this early with this many opinions and personalities in the thread. When we see someone getting pushed, and we don't fully agree with the suspect or the methods, we push back. When we can't get our preferred person pushed, we have a lot of pent up energy and we start to look for enemies among those who seem to agree but won't cooperate.

I think there's underlying tension in the thread that is erupting in this post between Fred and GH and I don't think either person is mafia.

Maybe I'm not precisely describing what's happening here, and it might be coupled with other things on my mind, but here it is. My reaction is I think this is town/town and that some of the disputes that will happen here are expected, natural, and even nitpicky.

[Csargo]

I am sorry I didn't get to this quickly. I might have answered it already, but if not, nudge me.

If I lynch some of your suspects and they turn out to be a wolf, I might still call for you to be lynched. Some of those interactions look bad.

Knowing that, would you still help me lynch them if you think they are a wolf?

Let's say I gave it two shots. Logic being the first to go, choxorn second, or vice-versa. Let's say both flip wolf.

I think that's what is gonna happen. If I list your name in the POE after that, are you still gonna help me lynch them?

I'll give you one more chance to not be lynched if you help me lynch a deep wolf after that, but otherwise I might come knocking on your door.

Also I'll be dead by then if I'm right so someone else is gonna have to hold you to this.

Vote:Logic

Also, this isn't what I asked for, but it'll do.

I'm not really concerned with where you put me in your POE, because if I'm lynched I've played the best town game I can under the circumstances. I mean I'm not just going to rollover and die, I'll definitely fight you on that front, but if you choose to lynch me after those two, then that's how it's going to go.

I'm not sure what you're referring to with the interactions bit. I've always responded to accusations btw, just with varying degrees of seriousness regardless of alignment imo. I'm pretty sure you talked somewhere about that.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I have residual doubt on Zack, too, might just be paranoia but might not be. And I still think it's weird that he'd call out Pizza for going after what he calls "low hanging fruit" in Logic and Csargo, and then Zack proceeds to, 2 pages later, start going hard after El Barto, the lowest possible hanging of low hanging fruit.

Distancing, bolded why. ^ He might be right but he's going about it wrong. I think it's more a pro wrestler's punch, designed to look like they're opposed but it doesn't actually leave a bruise.

[GeneralHankerchief]

I sense something between GH and Winston. I cant point my finger into it yet, but i hope others will oit it under scrutiny as well. Maybe its just one of them, but my gut is giving strange vibes. GH can you elaborate concerning Chox and also wgat you think about Winston?

I pretty much had my big post about Choxorn already, the long story short of it is I don't think he's within his town meta.

Here's the link

[GeneralHankerchief]

Oh right, the Winston part.

Town, probably, don't have a bigger read on him than that right now.

[Montmorency]

I don't think the case is totally without merit, but I think it's grasping at straws a bit- Town El Barto is also prone to complaining about how active the thread is and Town El Barto also loves to OMGUS people. And it's for sure a low-hanging fruit case, because El Barto is, by virtue of his unconventional play, always a low-hanging fruit case that scum love to go after at some point.

This is true. It's part of why I wanted pressure on you, that the sudden twist against Barto and Manasi seemed like scraping the floor.


But now it's time to wonder what the Choxorn vs Logic means about Manasi and Barto, and the Logic wagon, and everyone else.

Vote count:

Pizza (1): Manasi

Zack (1): Xiahou

Logic (7): Pizza, Dp101, Slaan, Choxorn, Kagemusha, Winston Hughes <<< Csargo

Reinoe (1): Fredwood

Choxorn (5): Montmorency, Zack, GH, Reinoe, Logic

Xiahou (1): El Barto


Not voting (1): Cuthillius,

With 17 players there are 9 to hammer.

I'm assuming Choxorn and Logic aren't both scum. Well, it's possible but with this spread I don't want to actually analyze the whole game. Clearly Choxorn scum makes the whole wagon atp look good (especially when ruling out m/m). On the Logic wagon, these are mostly committed and long-term votes, they came out early and stuck around.

If Choxorn town and Logic scum, that makes 1 or 2 scum certain on the Choxorn wagon, coming out toward EOD. Zack and Reinoe look worst, Reinoe because he inserts himself firmly when he appears, but overall there's not much substance. So it's a good time to latch on to a counterwagon, I suppose.

Winston has been town-lean overall and not afraid to move his vote from time to time, so he is better left until after the flip.
Csargo coming out agreeing to Pizza's schedule, the latest Logic vote.
Barto, Cuth, Xiahou, Manasi, Fredwood, so far off-wagon.


Now quickly, what if both Logic and Choxorn are town? 2 off-wagon scum makes sense in that case, and 1 on the major wagons to make a team of 3 or 4 would be the perfect spread. How people have been pushing each other becomes very important in this case, since scum are most likely well-distributed and lower-activity. Maybe in that case Zack or GH feinted at Barto and Manasi to leave a distancing mark. Leave this for night talk.


I think we should try to set up a tie between Choxorn and Logic and see who manipulates the tie, since scum often get caught this way. Pizza, in the best version of today your Logic case is like your novice case from the end of D1 XCOM, and Tdome around novice is how we got Manasi outed, and the Tdome around Manasi is how we got BSmith outed...

So let's get this tied up into the end stretch

[Askthepizzaguy]

Vote:Logic

Also, this isn't what I asked for, but it'll do.

I'm not really concerned with where you put me in your POE, because if I'm lynched I've played the best town game I can under the circumstances. I mean I'm not just going to rollover and die, I'll definitely fight you on that front, but if you choose to lynch me after those two, then that's how it's going to go.

I'm not sure what you're referring to with the interactions bit. I've always responded to accusations btw, just with varying degrees of seriousness regardless of alignment imo. I'm pretty sure you talked somewhere about that.

I can work with this.

I'm being up front with you and I hope if you're town that's helping you see the board better. You don't get town credits from me for either a logic or choxorn flip at this point, but I'd still want you to lynch there.

If you shot Zack and he flipped mafia, you can have infinity town credits tho.

[Sooh]

Vote count:

Pizza (1): Manasi

Zack (1): Xiahou

Logic (7): Pizza, Dp101, Slaan, Choxorn, Kagemusha, Winston Hughes, Csargo

Reinoe (1): Fredwood

Choxorn (5): Montmorency, Zack, GH, Reinoe, Logic

Xiahou (1): El Barto


Not voting (1): Cuthillius,

With 17 players there are 9 to hammer.


EOD1:

[Askthepizzaguy]

This is true. It's part of why I wanted pressure on you, that the sudden twist against Barto and Manasi seemed like scraping the floor.

I had a quick comment:

In the choxorn/Logic w/w universe, there is massive confusion benefit to defending one and pushing the other. Use that to bury Zack if he's not mechanically clear by late game and both of them flipped wolf.

If two wolves are under fire, but you hard defend one and push the other and get the other lynched, you steal all the momentum from town at the exact same cost of not winning that particular battle. And if you lose the battle, you still look good later or your partner you never eliminated does.

That's elite wolfing, never ever let anyone get away with it in the W/W universe. Anyone who hard defended one and pushed the other must be critically examined and not reach LYLO.