Why is There Death and Suffering if God is all Loving

[total relism]

But who are "all"? Is there some stash of unborn souls somehwere that he needs to deplete before he can bring about the end? What if we were to nuke the entire planet before that happens? Would he prevent that from happening? If so, would that be a way to irrefutably prove his existence, by trying to nuke all of humanity? Didn't Paul expect judgment day to come during his lifetime anyway?

Great questions. I think the "all" is all those who will eventually come to Christ. So i hope, my yet to be born grandchildren and great grandchildren. If you look at the world i dont think it will be very many generations before Christianity becomes a small sect and a little minority. At least true Christianity. If someone nuked the whole world and killed everyone, yes that would disprove the bible as it says it ends in a very different way in the battle of Armageddon. It is divided on the issue if some of the apoltes thought jesus would return in their lifetime [they were not perfect and got allot wrong] i asked this same question here is a response i was given if your interested.



thank you for contacting Answers in Genesis. There is a division among theologians on whether this is the case or not. Some theologians believe that most of the Apostles expected Jesus to return in their lifetime, but many theologians believe that the Apostles believed in an imminent return of the Lord, but not necessarily an immediate return. The words of the Apostle Paul seem to verify this in 2 Thess. 2 (text below).

2 Thess. 2:1-5 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?

Peter seems to teach the same thing; imminence yet also the longsuffering of God, which may result in a delay for His return so that more will come to repentance.

2 Pet. 3:9-15 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you.

However, even if all the Apostles thought Jesus was going to return in their lifetime, that doesn't mean that they weren't mistaken in their humanity, yet Scripture is still vindicated. The Disciples often failed to grasp the importance of what Jesus said, or misconstrued it. But concerning when Jesus would return (and establish the kingdom), He Himself told them in Acts 1:7 And He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority.

Additionally Jesus specifically said that His return would be delayed in parable form; that is the whole emphasis in Matthew 25, that the bridegroom and master will delay His return, but when He does come, He will come unexpectedly and suddenly. So either way, the Apostles were teaching imminence and hoping for a soon return, but not necessarily an immediate one; or some of them were mistaken and didn't catch the thrust of Jesus' parables in Matt. 25. However the text of passages such as outlined above, plus 2 Tim. 3:1, 1 Pet. 1:5, 2 Pet. 3:3 and Jude 18 seems to indicate that even if the Disciples thought this way initially (Acts 1:7) they had through further revelation come to understand that Christ would delay his return until all his sheep were gathered (John 10:16) and the times of the Gentiles would be fulfilled (Luke 21:24).

[Gilrandir]

I do believe animals sin as they have spirts or souls i forget witch. P

We here are not concerned with what one BELIEVES. We are talking quotations. Please, cite anything in Bible which says that animals have souls similar to humans and that they can sin.

Here is definition of sin (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sin)
1 a : an offense against religious or moral law
b : an action that is or is felt to be highly reprehensible it's a sin to waste food
c : an often serious shortcoming : fault
2 a : transgression of the law of God
b : a vitiated state of human nature in which the self is estranged from God

Do tell me which explanations of sin are applicable to animals.

In fact the opposite, he assures us we will suffer.

So we will suffer, he will not interfere in it, and we must love him for that?

"Drinking beer is easy. Trashing your hotel room is easy. But being a Christian, that's a tough call. That's rebellion."
-Alice Cooper

Alice Cooper
"Steal That Car"

It just ain't fair I was put in that position
Somebody left their keys in the ignition
I saw the unlocked door and made my decision
I just can't help myself

Everybody knows
I'm gonna steal that car
My reputation shows
I'm gonna steal that car
I did some time in '99
I'll do some time again
Everybody knows
I'm gonna steal that car

You somehow should sort out those whose opinions you rely on. Some of them aren't any authority outside their narrow circle, others have a dubious reputation (like Alice Cooper - I love him, by the way. One of my favorite singers. Grew up on his "Trash" and "Hey stoopid" albums).

Agreed god is a jealous god as the bible clearly says.

One more proof that Bible is full of contradictions. Or perhaps God is so versatile.

And in what way is god jealous? what kind of jealousy is it? is it in a manner inconstant with a loving god? or is it because of his love? the context can help us understand that. Otherwise some might use it and create a false context and try and make his jealousy the way that some humans become jealous over things they should not.

From what I quoted, his jealousy was aroused when someone prayed to other gods.

Once more I would suggest it is because you have ignored the context and your claim of children being punished for the fathers sin is a great example of this.

It is a great example that God can be needlessly cruel.

?

Humans try to explain what God says or means using their human logics (in their defense - they don't have any other). So we interpret his messages as we understand them. Which doesn't mean it is the correct interpretation of the divine will. Perhaps this is one of the reasons Bible is so contradictory.

So you are saying you wish jesus was always around to heal the sick etc. He always told people this was not his mission as they just wanted to get well, he wanted their eternity with him, far more important.

At least it would make more sense if one claims to be a merciful God. Otherwise it again looks like a politician's promise - you adhere to me and some time in future I'll try to do something about your current problems.

[Gilrandir]

That is to bad. Their are some good ones if your interested.

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/index.php
http://newboards.theonering.net/foru...erl/gforum.cgi
http://forum.barrowdowns.com/index.php?

Both judas and adam were guilty and rebelled against god. Adam was never meant to sin, he was meant to live eternally in relationship with god. His proper function was to follow god and be a steward of earth, eat good food and have sex. His own free will caused the fall. God chose a world with free will and thus accepted the future fall of man. Judas worked on his own choice as well. God uses the bad choices of mankind to do his work yes, but they disobey on their own. A great example is jospeh in egypt. His brothers did evil and sold him into slavery, but god used that for good. But god does not approve of what they did.

As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people[a] should be kept alive, as they are today.
-Gen 50.20

You may be right about Adam. But not about Judas. If it hadn't been for him there would never have been God's son sacrificing himself, nor resurrection, nor Easter and other things which are the foundations of Christianity.

[rory_20_uk]

This kind of posts just reassure me that large portions of the population accept things they are told and cannot support them other than repete the same stuff they were told to believe. It seems I think some think the da vinci code was actually history. This thread more than any needs a translation of the bible thread to be done. Please allow me the time to address each issue one at a time.

Yes... they are broadly called those who follow religions.

You appear to be missing the point - translating an unreliable source doesn't make it more reliable.

[total relism]

You may be right about Adam. But not about Judas. If it hadn't been for him there would never have been God's son sacrificing himself, nor resurrection, nor Easter and other things which are the foundations of Christianity.

I think god would have accomplished his plan using whoever he could. I dont think judas is central. their was enough people that wanted jesus dead, judas just gets to much credit imo.

[total relism]

We here are not concerned with what one BELIEVES. We are talking quotations. Please, cite anything in Bible which says that animals have souls similar to humans and that they can sin.

Here is definition of sin (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sin)
1 a : an offense against religious or moral law
b : an action that is or is felt to be highly reprehensible it's a sin to waste food
c : an often serious shortcoming : fault
2 a : transgression of the law of God
b : a vitiated state of human nature in which the self is estranged from God

Do tell me which explanations of sin are applicable to animals.

You are testing my expertise that is for sure. I am open to animals not being able to sin though i thought they were and if i come by why, i will post. But i will at least say they are effected by adams sin, they now do things against gods desire for them even if it is not counted as "sin" by god because of their perhaps lack of awareness.

For what happens to the sons of men also happens to animals; one thing befalls them: as one dies, so dies the other. Surely, they all have one breath; man has no advantage over animals, for all is vanity. All go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to dust. Who knows the spirit of the sons of men, which goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, which goes down to the earth?
Ecclesiastes 3:19–21

The Hebrew word nephesh is translated soul dozens of times in the Old Testament, but it is also used to describe animals.

The Bible makes a clear distinction between the status of plants and animals. People and animals are described in Genesis as having, or being, nephesh (Hebrew)—see Genesis 1:20, 21, 24, where nephesh chayyah is translated ‘living creatures’, and Genesis 2:7, where
Adam became a ‘living soul’ (nephesh chayyah). Nephesh conveys the basic idea of a ‘breathing creature’. It is also used widely in the
Old Testament, in combination with other words, to convey ideas of emotions, feelings, etc. Perhaps nephesh refers to life with a certain
level of consciousness.
https://creation.com/images/pdfs/cabook/chapter6.pdf

So we will suffer, he will not interfere in it, and we must love him for that?

No you dont have to like it, the christian life is not fun and enjoyment. its because we love him we endure it. Just like because he loved us he endured the cross.

Alice Cooper
"Steal That Car"

It just ain't fair I was put in that position
Somebody left their keys in the ignition
I saw the unlocked door and made my decision
I just can't help myself

Everybody knows
I'm gonna steal that car
My reputation shows
I'm gonna steal that car
I did some time in '99
I'll do some time again
Everybody knows
I'm gonna steal that car

You somehow should sort out those whose opinions you rely on. Some of them aren't any authority outside their narrow circle, others have a dubious reputation (like Alice Cooper - I love him, by the way. One of my favorite singers. Grew up on his "Trash" and "Hey stoopid" albums).

Yes all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of god, still its a great quote. he is a christian now, not when he wrote those lyrics. Look at Paul in the NT, he use to hunt down and kill Christians. Moses, david, many of the most well known names in the bible were murders. My past is full of stealing, drugs, selfishness, adultery, lying and just about anything else you could add to it. That is before i became a crazy ass christian

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
-Ezekiel 36 26

One more proof that Bible is full of contradictions. Or perhaps God is so versatile.

when does it say he is not jealous? what contradiction do you see? as sated, his jealousy is driven by love. It is not a desire for what others [people? other gods?] have, but a desire to be in a loving relationship with his people in this case isreal. His bride who cheated on him by following other gods. if you see a contradiction please let me know.

From what I quoted, his jealousy was aroused when someone prayed to other gods.

more than prayed but agreed, see above.

It is a great example that God can be needlessly cruel.

if what you are saying devoid of context is true, than i agree, and so does the bible.

Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin.
Deut. 24:16

The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.
Ezekiel 18:20

Humans try to explain what God says or means using their human logics (in their defense - they don't have any other). So we interpret his messages as we understand them. Which doesn't mean it is the correct interpretation of the divine will. Perhaps this is one of the reasons Bible is so contradictory.

or, perhaps its the reason you see contradictions where non exists. I can show you suing human logic and resolve any supposed contradiction you think exists. I have done so hundreds of times on many forums. I will do a thread on it and i will pm you if your interested.

At least it would make more sense if one claims to be a merciful God. Otherwise it again looks like a politician's promise - you adhere to me and some time in future I'll try to do something about your current problems.

He never said he would do anything of our current problems. He said they will become worse in fact. Jesus had a different opinion. First he had to die and rise to pay the penalty for sin, than he if he had stayed in human form, could only help people within isreal so that would not help, instead he helps all believers and attempts all people, through the holy spirit.

But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
john 16.7


6 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[a] in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”...26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29 I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. 30 I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me, 31 but he comes so that the world may learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me.
John 14

[Gilrandir]

when does it say he is not jealous? what contradiction do you see? as sated, his jealousy is driven by love. It is not a desire for what others [people? other gods?] have, but a desire to be in a loving relationship with his people in this case isreal. His bride who cheated on him by following other gods. if you see a contradiction please let me know.

Under contradictions I mean statements that have completely opposite meaning, but are both one person (if God is a person). In linguistics they are called antinomies. Like God is forgiving and God is jealous. Or another example is

Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin.
Deut. 24:16

vs what was said about children being punished to the seventh degree.

He never said he would do anything of our current problems.

You quoted another source (not Bible) which had this idea. If you remember I likened it to a political slogan.

[Gilrandir]

I think god would have accomplished his plan using whoever he could. I dont think judas is central. their was enough people that wanted jesus dead, judas just gets to much credit imo.

Yet it was Judas who was chosen. So there is np use denouncing him for what he was appointed.

[total relism]

Under contradictions I mean statements that have completely opposite meaning, but are both one person (if God is a person). In linguistics they are called antinomies. Like God is forgiving and God is jealous. Or another example is

But than how is god being forgiving and jealous a contradiction?

vs what was said about children being punished to the seventh degree.

when they continue in their fathers sins and refuse to repent.

You quoted another source (not Bible) which had this idea. If you remember I likened it to a political slogan.

[/QUOTE]

hmmm, not sure which you are referring to. If so i apologize.

[Gilrandir]

But than how is god being forgiving and jealous a contradiction?

If you forgive everyone for everything you can't feel jealous.

hmmm, not sure which you are referring to.

Taken from your post:

In fact, God has done a lot already to solve the problem of evil, and He has promised to do more in the future.

And my remark:

Sounds too much like an election agenda.

[total relism]

If you forgive everyone for everything you can't feel jealous.



Taken from your post:


And my remark:

Sounds too much like an election agenda.

God does not just forgive everything. He offers forgiveness to those who accept jesus sacrifice on the cross and repent. God is even jealous of people who are his own such as the case with ancient isreal who than went astray because his love for them did not stop. Just as a husband would be jealous of an adulterous wife, even if he was willing to forgive if she stopped, his love still drives the jealousy. There is difference between condoning an act and forgiving a moral violation out of love and gods nature.


Perhaps it is. God did so much for us vote for him, accept his son and have the gift of eternal life. He alone is the rightful king.

Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...edience-to-God

We love him, because he first loved us.
-1 John 4.19

But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
-Romans 5.8



But I was speaking more to what he did do in the past, such as die on the cross.

[Fragony]

You should stop using the bible as a source, the people you adress (including me) do not see it as a source. The question is interesting enough without it, what do you think yourself

[total relism]

You should stop using the bible as a source, the people you adress (including me) do not see it as a source. The question is interesting enough without it, what do you think yourself

I think you have misunderstood the nature of my op. It has nothing to do with showing the bible true. It responds to a common objection people have [such as i had when i was agnostic/atheist] that how come their is death and suffering if god is all loving. This seemed an inconstancy with a god of love. How could i worship a god who created an imperfect world? isent this an imperfect god than? wouldent this disprove the bible? to this thread is on an internal inconstancy with the bible not a proof of the bible as gods word. Now if someone such as yourself thought for yourself and read the op, I would assume they would have figured that out. As someone who if a former atheist but than learned to think for myself, i have concluded


“Its been said that when human beings stop believing in god they believe in nothing. The truth is much worse, they believe in anything.” Malcolm maggeridge


if you want to start a thread on why some vague unknowable deist god of the universe allows for evil, than go ahead and start one. Asking why is their death and suffering and avoiding what the creators word [the bible] says on the subject is irrational and so i could not start such a thread, my apologies.

[total relism]

Old Testament Death Penalty Laws

“Whoever sheds man’s blood, By man his blood shall be shed; For in the image of God He made man.
-Genesis 9.6

“Early I will destroy all the wicked of the land,
That I may cut off all the evildoers from the city of the Lord.”
-Psalm 101.8

“proclaiming, "The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, 7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished”
-Exodus 34 6-7

The death penalty had been an accepted practice almost universally through history and cultures. It has been society's most effective preventive to crime. Benjamin Franklin said a public execution once and awhile is good for a society as it would show the community the punishments for the sins they might commit. The death penalty prevents killers from committing the same crimes saving future innocents and family members from the horrors of murder. When criminals go unpunished and the innocent suffer, people complain about god saying "were is the god of justice?" Malachi 2.17. It gives justice to family members of the victims. And ultimately upholds the biblical view of man being created in the image of God.

“some men ,probable obtain from murder because they fear that they committed murder they would be hanged. Hundreds or thousands abstain from it because they regard it with horror”
-James Stevens A General View of the criminal law in England 1863

In today's society we see crime running wild, in part because we have softened on our punishments and we have hidden our capital punishments from the public, instead of the old American, and biblical way, of public displays. When they are done in private, they lose their purpose to prevent further criminals from acting in ways that would receive the punishment. God does not see the death penalty as a good thing, but as a necessary evil to prevent further evil done to the innocent witch comes from the very nature of a holy and just God.

“Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked?,' says the Lord God, 'And not rather that he should turn from his way and live? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone,' says the Lord God. 'So turn and live! Say to them, "As I live," says the Lord God, "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways. For why will you die?"'
-Ezekiel 18.23,32; 33.11

It is not vengeance but seeking justice. People should be angry with horrific acts and want to restore justice as does God.

“We execute murders in order to make a communal proclamation that murder is intolerable”
-David Gelernter What do Murders Deserve

“we cannot help but regard it as fitting when things go well for good people and badly for bad people, and as unfair when the revers occurs”
-Edward Fesser and Joseph Bessette By Man Shall his Blood be Shed a catholic defense of capital punishment Ignatius press San Francisco 2017

“It is indeed praiseworthy for victims of crime to forgive their debtors, but such personal pardon does not absolve offenders from their obligations to justice...“The relationship of the state to the criminal is not the same as that of a victim to an assailant. Governors and judges are responsible for maintain a just public order.””
-Cardinal Avery Bulls

The OT laws are not Gods perfect plan, but for a specific time and people coming from a ancient near eastern culture [Matt 19.8] we cannot apply today's western standards to OT near eastern Jews. Israel joined a covenant and they were free to leave at any time. God never made anyone follow him, they could always leave the camp if they did not want to follow the rules. Courts were to rule rightly with Jew or gentile [Deuteronomy 1 16-17] and the law is full of chances for mercy forgiveness. The bible says that God would prefer the guilty to make restitution outside of court with the victim, and that the victim has the choice of forgiveness or justice. Luke 12 58-59 says it is better to settle out of court than to face penalty in court. In 2 kings 4 1-7 God does a miracle to prevent a person from reviving the death penalty under the law. David, Moses, Cain are examples were the death penalty was not given by God to premeditated murders. When a woman who was caught in adultery was brought to Jesus he said the first with no sin through the first stone, he then forgave her and told her to sin no more. In Nehemiah 13 15-22 the leaders of Jerusalem are in violation of the law with capital punishment as a crime, yet Nehemiah simply threatened to arrest them. In the NT when the disciples are said to be guilty of working on the Sabbath, and the Jews wished to stone them to death, Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. But in the case of unrepentant law breakers punishment would come. If people were to follow the rules of love your god with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself there would be no punishments.

8 Then the word of the LORD came to Zechariah, saying, 9 “Thus says the LORD of hosts: Execute true justice,
Show mercy and compassion Everyone to his brother. 10 Do not oppress the widow or the fatherless, The alien or the poor. Let none of you plan evil in his heart Against his brother.’
-Zechariah 7 8-10

“He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly[a] with your God.”
-Micah 6.8

To be found guilty in court of a crime that carries capital punishment, there had to be two or more witnesses to the act. So it had to be more of a public display witch would spread sin to the community and if left unpunished, would encourage other to do the same. Before any punishments the guilty had to be brought to court and convicted by judges and forewarned of the punishment for the crime.

“In rabbinic law, capital punishment may only be inflicted by the verdict of a regularly constituted court of three-and-twenty qualified members. There must be the most trustworthy and convincing testimony of at least two qualified eye-witnesses to the crime, who must also depose that the culprit had been forewarned of the criminality and the consequences of his project”
-Jewish Encyclopedia/ Capital punishment
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/ar...tal-punishment

“The Talmud limits the use of the death penalty to Jewish criminals who:
(A) while about to do the crime were warned not to commit the crime while in the presence of two witnesses (and only individuals who meet a strict list of standards are considered acceptable witnesses); and
(B) having been warned, committed the crime in front of the same two witnesses
http://judaism.about.com/od/orthodox...ery_punish.htm

There are 16 crimes that call for death penalty in OT, only in the case of premeditated murder does it say officials in Israel were forbidden to take "ransom" or "substitute" for punishment [numbers 35 30-31 genesis 9.6] The death penalty did not have to be carried out in all cases.

“we should also keep in mind that a common feature of ANE law codes was to describe the maximum possible punishment while allowing for less severe sentences. Notice, for example, that when Joseph discovered that Mary, his betrothed, was pregnant, he was called "just" for planning to "divorce her quietly" rather than "put her to shame" (Matthew 1:9)
-Keaton Halley ‘Awful’ rules in the Bible Is the Good Book really good?


At any time a witness or one of the Sanhedrin could call of the exacusion, even after the trial found them guilty. As a pointer to Jesus covering our death penalty for sin, the sinner could be forgiven by a blood sacrifice by the priests.

“(H)e must bring as his offering for the sin he committed a female goat without defect. He is to lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and slaughter it at the place of the burnt offering. Then the priest is to take some of the blood with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering and pour out the rest of the blood at the base of the altar. He shall remove all the fat, just as the fat is removed from the fellowship offering, and the priest shall burn it on the altar as an aroma pleasing to the LORD. In this way the priest will make atonement for him, and he will be forgiven.”
-Leviticus 4:28-31

“For the life of a creature is in the blood , and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life.”
-Leviticus 17:11

The death penalty was also to show the seriousness of crime. I talked with Tovia Singer of outreach Judaism who told me the death penalty was used very rare in ancient Israel. If there were more than 1 in 70 years they were called “a killer court.”

“A Sanhedrin that puts a man to death once in seven years is called destructive. Rabbi Eliezer ben Azariah says that this extends to a Sanhedrin that puts a man to death even once in seventy years.”
-makkot 1:10

Tovia also told me the purpose of death penalty was to atone for the sin of the person and show the gravity of the sin. Many of the capital punishment laws were to stamp out certain sins and to stop them from spreading. The punishments do not effect the individuals salvation. The punishments are to cause the sinner to repent.

“Depend on it sir, when a man knows he is to be hanged in a fortnight, it concentrates his mind wonderfully”
-Samuel Johnson

Repentance is common in modern death row cases. For example in 2010 Before receiving the death penalty

“this is the only way God could save me, Mom.”
-Kevin Varga 2010

Also it was used to stop sins from happening with other people. God loves his people to much to allow sin to destroy them, so he attempts to prevent sin from destroying us. The laws were there to stop sin in the first place [Numbers 35 33-34].

My son, do not despise the LORD’s discipline,
and do not resent his rebuke,
12 because the LORD disciplines those he loves,
as a father the son he delights in.
-proverbs 3. 11-12

While the death of anyone is not a good thing and is certainly not nice. But“ nice” is not always good, being nice with no judgment can have very bad results. For example

“crime was decreasing in the decades to the 1960s, when we punished criminals more. E.g. in America, the absolute number of murders committed in the U.S. in 1960 was less than in 1930, 1940 or 1950, even though the population was larger (murder is a particularly clear indicator of lower crime, since no one can simply dismiss this with “there was just less reported crime back then”). But then evolution-based ideas infected the justice system: this ‘root causes’ nonsense, proclaiming that the criminals were ‘victims of society’ such as poverty and racism. Yet these factors were much higher in the 1950s when there was lower crime. But the results were predictable: lower the ‘cost’ of crime, and there will be more of it. This has been thoroughly documented in Dr Thomas Sowell’s fine book”

Also we need to consider that crimes of that time such as adultery had much bigger impacts and were considered greater crimes than today. Even 50 years ago divorce was very rare and seen as a very bad thing that would have negative effects on the family and culture. So some things such as adultery would be like what we consider maybe child molesters or similar. We as people over time get more sinful and accept certain crimes we originally would not have, or see them as not so bad because we have normalized them and made them common. For example, when I was young I said I would never smoke a cigarette, than I started smoking. I than said well I would never smoke pot, than I started. ill never smoke as much as them, than I did. well ill never do drugs then I did etc. So you can see we all do this in many ways towards things we do wrong. But God does not sin, he does not grow in sinfulness as we do. He is a just judge not a sinful human. if law is rejected than

“lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.”
-Matthew 24:12

Abolishing capital punishment would lead to vigilantly justice. In secular thought death is the ultimate evil rather than a step on the road to eternal life. It would not be moral progress but a evaporation of a sense of sin, guilt and justice.

Stoning children?

“The stoning of rebellious sons is one such Scripture that makes some Christians uncomfortable. Many people imagine this to be too harsh because they have ignored the qualifications that the Bible itself gives. They imagine a little child mouthing off to his parents, and then being killed for it. But this isn’t at all what the Bible teaches. First of all, the law applied to sons, not children. It appears to refer to young adults who were still living with their parents. From context (Deuteronomy 21:18) we can see that this penalty of stoning was not for a single action, but was for someone who had been punished many times (“when they chastise him”) and yet still continued in disobedience (“he will not even listen to them”). It was for someone who was constantly drunk and disobedient (Deuteronomy 21:20), someone who was continually cursing (Exodus 21:17) and even physically attacking (Exodus 21:15) his own parents. For such an evil individual, God instructed him to be delivered to the city authorities for public execution.Such an action is very serious, and it was meant to be. The public execution of such an individual was supposed to act as a deterrent to others (Deuteronomy 21:21—“and all Israel will hear of it and fear.”) How many such executions would people have to see before they got the point? Interestingly, I cannot find any Scriptural references to this punishment ever having been actually implemented. Perhaps it was, but my point is that it seems to have been uncommon. Just the threat of this penalty apparently acted as an effective deterrent. It was an extreme penalty for the most extreme, continuous rebellion of the most evil and violent young men. And it was only to be used as a last resort to protect society from unrestrained violence. Proverbs 19:18 states “Discipline your son while there is hope, And do not desire his death.”
-Jason Lisle Gods was to Harsh? And Answers in Genesis Killing rebellious son

It also needs to be said that Gods law were meant for prevention, to prevent an evil in the first place and in this case it seemed to have worked for ancient Israel. For example v 21 says

21 Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death; so you shall remove the evil from your midst, and all Israel will hear of it and fear.

There is no record in the bible or Israelite history where a child was stoned to death for rebellious behavior. Thus gods sever punishment worked as a prevention. Also if we look at the opposite today's society where youth are allowed and encouraged to rebel towards parents with little punishment. Thousands die from drunk driving, drug use, violence etc because of this.


What was Stoning?

The goal was for a quick painless death, they did not have lethal injection in that day.

“the Talmudic method of how stoning is to be carried out differs from mob stoning. According to the Jewish Oral Law, after the Jewish criminal has been determined as guilty before the Great Sanhedrin, the two valid witnesses and the sentenced criminal go to the edge of a two story building. From there the two witnesses are to push the criminal off the roof of a two story building. The two-story height is chosen as this height is estimated by the Talmud to effect a quick and painless demise but is not so high that the body will become dismembered. After the criminal has fallen, the two witnesses are to drop a large boulder onto the criminal – requiring both of the witnesses to lift the boulder together..“Any Biblical death penalty procedure had to be accomplished in one instantaneous stroke,” he explained. “For while the death penalty may have been administered, it was not done in a way to prolong agony or suffering, nor in a manner of public humiliation that degraded the human being created in the image of God.”
-Fact Check: Does the Bible Really Condone Stoning? Rabbi Aryeh Spero, author of “Push Back: Reclaiming Our American Judeo-Christian Spirit,”

Are Gods laws to harsh?

“Yes I understand that law. But it still seems wrong to me. Some Old Testament laws are just too harsh.” For this person, I have only one question: “too harsh by what standard?” The person who finds God’s law to be off the mark (too harsh or too lenient) must have some way of knowing what the mark is. As one example, what is the right penalty for a given crime? And how do you know? Many people appeal to their own subjective feelings of what they think to be right. But that is completely arbitrary; it’s a mere opinion without any rational foundation. What if two people disagree on what is morally right? How would they decide who is correct? Clearly, they must appeal to some greater standard that ultimately determines what is morally right. What is that standard?.... We need an objective standard if we are to have objective morality and not just conflicting subjective opinions. Some people believe that morality is determined by majority vote. But that criterion leads to absurd results. After all, if the majority of people could be convinced that it’s okay to murder people, would that really make it morally acceptable? History is full of examples of the majority of people doing what is morally wrong. But that couldn’t be if the majority determined what is right. Appealing to the majority simply shifts an arbitrary opinion from one person to a group of people. It does not make the opinion any less arbitrary. After all, why should I do what the majority says?.....None of the above opinions can make the leap from what is to what should be. Only God’s law can do this. God is our Creator and will hold us accountable for our behavior. Therefore, we all have a very good objective reason to behave as God has commanded in His law. Any standard for morality apart from God’s Word is arbitrary, and therefore irrational. “Good” is that which corresponds to the will of God (Romans 12:2, Hebrews 13:16, 3 John 1:11). God’s law is good because it corresponds perfectly to His will. When a person thinks that a law of God is not good (e.g. too harsh), this does not indicate a problem with the law of God. Rather, it indicates a problem with the person. It shows that the individual does not truly understand what morality is. Such a person is trying to appeal to his own subjective feelings of right and wrong rather than the supreme and unchanging Word of God....God’s law reveals what is right; it shows us God’s standards. When a person disagrees with God’s standards, He is trying to judge the law by some greater standard. But there is no greater standard.
-Jason Lisle Gods laws to harsh? By what standard


Sins of the fathers punish the children?

Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin.
Deut. 24:16

The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.
Ezekiel 18:20

if they continue in fathers sins, they will be punished. When they continue in fathers sins will cause judgment, otherwise god would relent, example 1 sam 15 3 and 5 god says he will punish amalakites for what happened in Egypt long before [fathers]. Yet they continued in fathers sin judges 3.12 6 3-5,33 7.12 10.12 etc 1 sam 30 1 sam 15.18 show they are presently wicked. A key to understanding this business is a concept called vicarious punishment that is found in the law codes of the ANE. Greenberg [Chr.SPPS, 295] offers these examples:

A creditor who has maltreated the distrained sin of his debtor that he dies, must lose his own son. If a man struck the pregnant daughter of another so that she miscarried and died, his own daughter must be put to death. A seducer must deliver his wife to the seduced girl's father for prostitution. In another class are penalties which involve the substitution of a dependent for the offerer -- the Hittite laws compelling a slayer to deliver so many persons to the kinsmen of the slain, or prescribing that a man who has pushed another into a fire must give over his son...Now it is precisely this kind of punishment, which was prescribed in every law code in the Near East, that Deut. 24:16 is intended to forbid. The verse is not a universal motto, but a time-specific law intended as a direct counter to the practices listed above. "The proper understanding of this requires...that it be recognized as a judicial provision, not a theological dictum." [Chr.SPPS, 296, 298]
http://www.tektonics.org/lp/paydaddy.html

many today support abortion because of rape, that is punishing the child for the sins of the father.


Did god create evil? Isiah 45

"Thou art not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness; no evil dwells with Thee (Psalm 5:4)

"The Lord is righteous in all His ways, and kind in all His deeds." (Psalm 145:17)


"calamity." Contextually, this verse is dealing with natural disasters and human comfort issues. It is not speaking of moral evil; rather, it is dealing with calamity, distress, etc. Also, take note that Isaiah is presenting contrasts. He speaks of "light" and "darkness," "well being" and "calamity." The word "well-being" in the Hebrew is the word for 'peace,' "Shalome." So, in the context, we are seeing two sets of opposites: Light and dark, peace and non-peace, or well being and calamity. The "evil" that is spoken of is not ontological evil, but the evil experienced by people in the form of calamity."
http://carm.org/does-god-create-evil

The context ofIsaiah 45:7 makes it clear that something other than “bringing moral evil into existence” is in mind. The context of Isaiah 45:7 is God rewarding Israel for obedience and punishing Israel for disobedience. God pours out salvation and blessings on those whom He favors. God brings judgment on those who continue to rebel against Him. “Woe to him who quarrels with his Master” (Isaiah 45:9). That is the person to whom God brings “evil” and “disaster.” So, rather than saying that God created “moral evil,”Isaiah 45:7is presenting a common theme of Scripture – that God brings disaster on those who continue in hard-hearted rebellion against Him.
http://www.gotquestions.org/Isaiah-45-7.html

calamity, mistranslation,with flow of chapter,calamity 7 ways to translate original word.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...45&version=NIV

The word ra' is used throughout the Old Testament with several meanings. It is used many times to mean something morally evil or hurtful (Job 35:12, 1 Sam 30:22, etc.) but it is also used to mean an unpleasant experience (Gen 47:9 and Prov. 15:10). It is used to describe fierce beasts (Lev. 26:6), and even spoiled or inferior fruit (Jer 24:3). Certainly, the figs that Jeremiah was looking at were not evil in the sense of morally reprobate!
In Isaiah 45, the word evil is used in a contrast to the peace and well-being discussed before it. I quote John Haley:
http://www.comereason.org/phil_qstn/phi025.asp


Woman in Bible

The first person to see the resurrected Christ was a woman (John 20:15-18). The first European convert was a woman (Acts 16:14). The only followers of Jesus to stand with Him in his crucifixion were women. There were woman in the upper room and anointed with the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost (Acts 1:14, 2:1-4). Jesus was born to an earthly mother, but not an earthly father(Matt. 1:18,etc.). Only a woman understood Christ's upcoming death (Mark 14:8). These actions show that women played a part as crucial to Christ's ministry as the men In Galatians 3:28 the scriptures explicitly state that women hold a position of equal value and importance to men: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus." The Bible does not say that a woman cannot teach a man about Christ. Priscilla, along with her husband, taught Apollos the way of God more accurately (Acts 18:26). It does not say women cannot exercise spiritual gifts. The four daughters of Phillip had the gift of prophecy (Acts 21:9). 1 Corinthians 14:3 tells us "But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation." Thus prophesy and other gifts can be used between women and men. It does not say that women cannot evangelize. Lydia, after being converted, had regular fellowships in her home and evangelized others(Acts 16:14,40). This does not make the man superior, only placed in a different role than the woman. The best example of this I can think of is the tribes of ancient Israel. The Levites were chosen out of the twelve tribes to be the priests and to run the house of God, but this didn't mean they were superior to any of the other tribes. That is just the position in which God placed them. In the same way, men are to be the authority in the church. Women are allowed to teach other women, and instruct men. Even Timothy, the recipient of this epistle, was tutored by his mother and grandmother (2 Tim 1:5; 3:15). God also commanded Abraham to listen to the council of his wife in Genesis 21:12. However, since the authority falls to the man, it is he who will be held accountable for improper decisions, such as also happened to Abraham when he followed bad advice from Sarah in Genesis 16. So, God is not against women at all. Because each sex has a different role to play, doesn't make one role more important than the other. And God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.gen 1.27


Eve

Was created in the image and likeness of god gen 1 26-28 child birth was not a punishment but a gift. Pain in childbirth was punishment just as adam was punished. That eve was created second means nothing to importance, what is more important NT or OT?. When eve is called a helper, that word is only ever used of god in the OT, this in no way means inferior to man, but godlike. God is not inferior to man neither is woman. Sutible helper means "like opposite him" a mirror image.

christian woman pastors from early second century, woman in church had bigger and more roles in church in first century than second, than died off as a response to Gnostic.
-Justo L. González in The Story of Christianity: Volume 1


ccc 370 In no way is God in man's image. He is neither man nor woman. God is pure spirit in which there is no place for the difference between the sexes. But the respective "perfections" of man and woman reflect something of the infinite perfection of God: those of a mother and those of a father and husband.


men the head of woman/above in charge
mark 10 42-44

read here for pauls letters
http://enrichmentjournal.ag.org/200102/082_paul.cfm

1 Corinthians 7
38 So then he who gives her[c] in marriage does well, but he who does not give her in marriage does better.

39 A wife is bound by law as long as her husband lives; but if her husband dies, she is at liberty to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord.

Numbers 35.31 woman married who they wanted.

[total relism]

How Could a Loving God Send Plagues Against People?- The 10 Plagues of Egypt

A movie i think that would accurately depict gods motives and use of the 10 plagues in bible would be The Reaping.
https://www.amazon.com/Reaping-Hilar.../dp/B000U7169M

How is it, if God is loving, he could send plagues against people that resulted in their deaths? The most well known example in the bible comes from the Israelite exodus from Egypt. This also provides another difficulty for the christian among various plagues God has sent because children were among those who lost their lives.

“The men of Normandy had faith that what they were doing was right, faith that they fought for all humanity, faith that a just God would grant them mercy on this beachhead or on the next. It was the deep knowledge -- and pray God we have not lost it -- that there is a profound, moral difference between the use of force for liberation and the use of force for conquest. You were here to liberate, not to conquer, and so you and those others did not doubt your cause. And you were right not to doubt.” -President Ronald Reagan - June 6, 1984 POINTE DU HOC

Gods use of the 10 plagues was an act of Judgment Exodus 6 6-7 not an arbitrary event. Pharaoh was holding the Israelites in a brutal form of slavery and he was afraid of a large scale slave uprising, so he had all Hebrew boys born to be drowned in the Nile.

“So Pharaoh commanded all his people, saying, “Every son who is born you shall cast into the river.”
-Exodus 1.22

“They worked the Israelites ruthlessly 14 and made their lives bitter with difficult labor in brick and mortar and in all kinds of fieldwork. They ruthlessly imposed all this work on them.”
-Exodus 1 13-14

“When you serve as midwife to the Hebrew women and see them on the birthstool, if it is a son, you shall kill him, but if it is a daughter, she shall live
-Exodus 1.16

Israel was in slavery for hundreds of years in Egypt. How may prayers of Gods people went unanswered while under slavery in Egypt? Gods people lived under the tyrant pharaoh and many Israelites were killed by Egyptians included by starvation. Egypt was guilty of a terrible form of slavery and mass murder of innocent children.

“proclaiming, "The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, 7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished.”
-Exodus 34 6-7

The ten plagues were also used to show the Egyptians, and the world, [many foreigners in Egypt the most advanced nation of its time] that there is only one god and they were worshiping false gods Exodus 7.5 9.14 9.29 10 16-19. Every plague was aimed at showing the Egyptian gods are false. The plagues showed that pharaoh was not a god, and following him would lead to death.

“Context is everything in biblical interpretation. The ancient Egyptians served many false gods. The Plagues that were set upon the people of Egypt were relative to the gods of the land demonstrating that God was the true God and that their gods were weak, ineffective, and false. Plague of Turning the Nile to blood, Exodus 7:14-25. Isis was the Egyptian god of the Nile. Khnum was the guardian of the Nile. Plague of Frogs, Exodus 8:1-5. Heget was the goddess of birth and had the head of a frog. Plague of Gnats, Exodus 8:16-19. Set was the god of the desert. Flies, Exodus 8:20-32. Re was the sun god. Uatchit was a god possibly represented by the fly. Death of Livestock, Exodus 9:1-7. Hathor, goddess with a cow's head. Apis was the bull god. Boils, Exodus 9:8-12. Sekmet goddess that had power over disease. Sunu, the god of pestilence. Hail, Exodus 9:13-35. Nut, the goddess of the sky. Set god of storms. Locusts, Exodus 10:1-20. Osiris, god of crops. Darkness, Exodus 10:21-29. Re, the sun god. Horus, a sun god. Hathor, sky goddess. Death of firstborn, Exodus 11:1 - 12:30. Min, god of reproduction. Isis, goddess who protected children. Pharaoh, considered a god.1
-“The Plagues and the Gods and Goddesses of Egypt,” as found in Walvoord, John F., and Zuck, Roy B., The Bible Knowledge Commentary, (Wheaton, Illinois: Scripture Press Publications, Inc.) 1983, 1985. Matthew Slick (carm.org)

“Moreover, the battle that waged throughout the days of Moses’ audiences with pharaoh was not between Yahweh and pharaoh, but between Yahweh and the gods of Egypt, who—during God’s invoking of the ten plagues—were proven to be powerless. The God of Israel himself said, “And against all the gods of Egypt, I will execute judgments—I am Yahweh” (Exod 12:12b). This conclusion is supported by the statement of Jethro, Moses’ father-in-law, who had just heard a first-hand account of all the events: “Now I know that the Lord is greater than all the gods; because in the very thing in which they were proud, he proved to beabove them” (Exod 18:11). Jethro understood the point: Yahweh resoundingly won “the Battle of the Gods,” proving both to Israel, to Egypt, and to the rest of the Ancient Near East (hereinafter, “ANE”) that he alone is divine.
- Doug Petrovich ThM MA Amenhotep II and the Historicity of the Exodus Pharaoh Associates for Biblical Research

Yahweh Alone is God

It worked!!! Egyptians started believing in God after the 6th plague Ex 9.20 and were spared from the rest of the plagues. Belief in God, not nationality was the deciding factor of who suffered the last four plagues. Some Egyptians even started asking pharaoh to let Israel go Ex 10.7. Many Egyptians would join Israel and went out of Egypt with the Israelites.

The Last Plague- Death of The Firstborn

“However the plagues were not sent because of babies. God did not kill them but pharaohs sin against god and the Egyptians. Had the babies kids of Egypt grown up in Egypt worshiping pharaoh they may have missed out on eternity,look at numbers 14 28-33 for this with isreal,kids indirectly suffer for the sins of the parents.When an abusive father kills his child in a fit of rage, the child dies BECAUSE of the SINS of the FATHER, but the child is not being PUNISHED by being killed. When a child dies of an illness caused by neglect of a parent, they die BECAUSE (somewhat, at least) of the SINS of the parent, but their death would not be considered as a PUNISHMENT on the child for the neglect of the parent. It would be a CONSEQUENCE of the sin, but not a ‘punishment’ per se.The Exodus story involves a corporate or national punishment”
- Was God being evil when He killed all the firstborn in Egypt? Christian Think Tank

Any Egyptian who put the blood of the lamb [picture of Jesus] on the doorpost was passed-over and was spared. The blood of the lamb is what distinguished believers from non believers. They had no reason to reject god after the first 9 plagues so they willingly disobeyed him on the tenth and received judgment, showing there was nothing special about pharaoh or any firstborn individual. Pharaoh allowed this to happen, he could have let Israel go the 9 times before. God was willing and wanting to relent from sending the plagues at any time Ex 10 13-14,19 10 16-19. When pharaoh asked, God stopped the plagues 8.15 8.29-32.

"'Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked?,' says the Lord God, 'And not rather that he should turn from his way and live? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone,' says the Lord God. 'So turn and live! Say to them, "As I live," says the Lord God, "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways. For why will you die?"'"
-Ez. 18.23,32; 33.11

“ If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, 8 and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it. 9 And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, 10 and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it.”
-Jeremiah 18 7-10

Anyone who tried to stop Israel and Gods plan of salvation through messiah will receive judgment, this is throwout the bible. It is a Jewish principle to pick the better of two evils, death of messianic line and all go to hell, or death of pharaoh and the firstborns to convince pharaoh to let them go while converting large numbers to god. God was relenting from more severe punishments but not until the death of the firstborn, was pharaoh going to let the Israelites go. The firstborn who did not place the blood of the lamb on the doorpost would go straight to haven after death. They would also avoid growing up in a pagan system under pharaoh.

“The righteous perishes, And no man takes it to heart; Merciful men are taken away, While no one considers That the righteous is taken away from evil.”
-Isa. 57:1

Did God Harden Pharaohs Heart?

“But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said.”
-Exodus 8.15

“And the Lord did what Moses asked. The flies left Pharaoh and his officials and his people; not a fly remained. 32 But this time also Pharaoh hardened his heart and would not let the people go.”
-Exodus 8.31

Pharaoh investigated and found that not even one of the animals of the Israelites had died. Yet his heart was unyielding and he would not let the people go
-Exodus 9.7

“Why do you harden your hearts as the Egyptians and Pharaoh did? When Israel’s god dealt harshly with them,did they not send the Israelites out so they could go on their way?”
-1 Samuel 6.6

“And the magicians could not stand before Moses because of the boils, for the boils were on the magicians and on all the Egyptians. But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh; and he did not heed them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses”
-Ex 9:11-12


וַיְחַזֵּ֤ק, a Piel tense of the verb “to make stronger”. It is key to note that this is the Pi’el form of the verb, which means God strengthen Pharaoh heart. So God only reinforce what was already in Pharaoh’s heart.

God hardened Pharaoh’s heart and we are also told that Pharaoh hardened his own heart (4 times). Both statements are true and do not contradict each other. There was no hope of convincing or converting Pharaoh so his heart would be hardened by God (6 times, 10 times in all). God did not allow him to change his mind and was given no room to do anything else but what his own sinful heart dictated. Notice that in a very real sense, all four of the following statements are true: (1) God hardened Pharaoh’s heart; (2) Moses hardened Pharaoh’s heart; (3) the words that Moses spoke hardened Pharaoh’s heart; (4) Pharaoh hardened his own heart. All four of these observations are accurate, depicting the same truth from different perspectives. In this sense, God is responsible for everything in the Universe, i.e., He has provided the occasion, the circumstances, and the environment in which all things (including people) operate. But He is not guilty of wrong in so doing. From a quick look at a simple Hebrew idiom, it is clear that God did not unjustly or directly harden Pharaoh’s heart. God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34), He does not act unjustly (Psalms 33:5), and He has always allowed humans to exercise their free moral agency Deuteronomy 30:19. God, however, does use the wrong, stubborn decisions committed by rebellious sinners to further His causes Isaiah 10:5-11. In the case of Pharaoh’s hardened heart, God can be charged with no injustice, and the Bible can be charged with no contradiction. Humans were created with free moral agency and are culpable for their own actions.
-Who Hardened Pharaoh's Heart? Dave Miller PH.D Kyle Butt M.Div apologetic press

Was God Justified in his Judgment?

“Judgment is not opposed to Gods love and compassion, but rather springs from the character of a loving, caring god”
-Matthew Flannagan and paul Copan Did God really Command genocide

Man cannot judge the actions of a perfect holy god, it goes the other way around. According to that holy all knowing god, the answer is yes. For mankind to try and turn the sinners into the victims, and turn the judge of the world into a sinner, is an act of an evil heart.

“Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;
Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness;
Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!”
-Isiah 5.20

Even in the liberal west, Brutal forms of slavery and mass murder of children would not be tolerated in a society. Gods actions during the plagues were a result of love for the victims, and his nature as being a perfect sinless judge. For there to be a truly loving god who hates evil and sin, he must also be a judge of sin.

“I used to think that wrath was unworthy of God. Isn't God love? Shouldn't divine love be beyond wrath? ?God is love,and God loves every person and every creature. That's exactly why God is wrathful against some of them. My last resistance to the idea of God's wrath was a casualty of the war in the former Yugoslavia, a region from which I come. According to some estimates, 200,000 people were killed, and over 3,000,000 were displaced. My villages and cities were destroyed, my people shelled day in and day out, some of them brutalize beyond imagination, and I could not imagine God not being angry. Or think of Rwanda in the last decade of the past century, where 800,000 people were hacked to death in one hundred days! How did God react to the carnage? By doting on the perpetrators in a grandfatherly fashion? By refusing to condemn the bloodbath but instead affirming the perpetrators' basic goodness? Wasn't God fiercely angry with them? Though I used to complain about the indecency of the idea of God's wrath, I cam to think that I would have to rebel against a God who wasn't wrathful at the sight of the world' evil. God isn't wrathful in spite of being love. God is wrathful because God is love”
-Miroslav Volf Harvard Theologian quoted in Is God a Moral Monster? by Paul Copan, 192

Israel stayed in slavery for over 200 years and Gods love forced him into action. The opposite of love is not anger, but hate. God is angry at things that destroy his creation and his love for us. On sep 11 the president gave orders to shoot down planes to save lives that the terrorist could have used to kill more innocent lives. Sometimes judges give the death penalty to certain murders, but we dont call them murders, we call them good, just, judges.

“God fights in compassion to defend the oppressed, and in anger against the oppressor”
-Holy War in the Bible: Christian Morality and an Old Testament Problem Heath A Thomas Jermey Evans Paul Copan

So while the death of anyone is bad and death itself is bad. Given the circumstances it was better than the alternative. God punishing does not make the punishment good, but only the outcome. In 1 chronicles 28.3 king David is not allowed to build the temple because he has to much blood on his hands [ he killed to many people] even though they were often God ordered killings. Death is still a bad thing and not normal or natural part of life. If the Bible is true, is God not able to take life he is given? God is the only perfect judge. God judges by what is deserved, God is the judge of man, he does not order killing out of malice or lawlessness [Deuteronomy 32.4]. God does not judge willingly [Lamentations 3 32-33]. God personally suffers with human sin/judgment [Jeremiah 9.9 12.7-9 15 5-9 48 29-53 9.10 17-18 31.20 48 30-36 Ezekiel 27 3-11 26-36 Isiah 15.5 16 9-11] God suffers for humanity [Isiah 15 42 23-24 48.9 57.11 63.9 Jeremiah 15.6 Ezekiel 20 21-11 24.12 Malachi 2.17] The bible teaches peace first, not war.

Think of the Victims

Your eyes are too pure to look on evil;
you cannot tolerate wrongdoing.
Why then do you tolerate the treacherous?
Why are you silent while the wicked
swallow up those more righteous than themselves?
-Habakkuk 1:13

“All who do evil are good in the eyes of the Lord, and he is pleased with them” or “Where is the God of justice?”
-Malachi 2.17

“They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”
-Revelations 6.10

If we were in the same situation as the victims we might say I dont believe in God or a loving God, otherwise he would not allow these horrible things to happen. A major objection to the bible is were is God when bad things happen? How can a loving God allow such things like babies being drowned in the nile? So why is it when God does act in judgment against sin, than all sudden he is called harsh and evil? The problem is not with Gods perfect judgment of people hearts, but with the unrepentant sinners heart, that will reject God no matter what.
“Would you discredit my justice?
Would you condemn me to justify yourself?
-Job 40.8

One christian wrote

“I like a point a friend of mine made about this. One Skeptic asked why God simply did not kill Hitler as a baby. Yet if "baby Hitler" had died, the Skeptic would ask why God did not prevent the death of this innocent baby.”
-Sam Shamoun

Or

“As I read and re-read all the non-Christian or anti-Christian accounts of the faith … a slow and awful impression grew gradually but graphically upon my mind—the impression that Christianity must be a most extraordinary thing. For not only (as I understood) had Christianity the most flaming vices, but it had apparently a mystical talent for combining vices which seemed inconsistent with each other. It was attacked on all sides and for all contradictory reasons. No sooner had one rationalist demonstrated that it was too far to the east than another demonstrated with equal clearness that it was much too far to the west.” On the one hand, they ‘proved’ Christianity was “a thing of inhuman gloom”, but then they proved that Christianity “was a great deal too optimistic.” Christianity supposedly caused overpopulation by “Go forth and multiply” (Genesis 1:28), but then it was supposedly anti-sex.“Or, again, certain phrases in the Epistles or the marriage service, were said by the anti-Christians to show contempt for woman’s intellect. But I found that the anti-Christians themselves had a contempt for woman’s intellect; for it was their great sneer at the Church on the Continent that ‘only women’ went to it.”
-G.K. Chesterton



Korah Rebellion Numbers 16 Were Children killed?

.The word Sheol appears 65 times in the O.T. 31 times it means "the grave"; 31 times it means the "abode of the dead, both wicked and righteous) and 3 times it means simply a "dug out pit". There are also four other Hebrew words besides Sheol that are translated as "the pit" and none of those mean "hell". So there are two ways to look at these verses in Numbers 16.

The first is that they are refering to physical death only. This makes sense in light of the even split between Sheol referring to the grave as much as hell in the O.T. It also makes sense in light of the phrase at the end of verse 33 (they perished from the assembly). and from Moses' own statement in verses 28-29 28-29 "And Moses said: "By this you shall know that the LORD has sent me to do all these works, for I have not done them of my own will. "If these men die naturally like all men, or if they are visited by the common fate of all men, then the LORD has not sent me". Both of these statements refer to physical death (muwth and abad in the Hebrew meaning perish, die, be exterminated or executed). Plus, it is said in Scripture that the wicked dead will not have a body until the Great White Throne judgment in Rev. 20:5-14. These families would be exceptions to this statement if they were taken alive into Sheol/Hades the place of judgment. This is by far the stronger view, textually, linguistically and in accordance with other teachings of Scripture.

The second position would be that these families were taken to Sheol/Hades alive. If this were the case, it would have to be an exception to the rule stated in Rev. 20. If this did occur, then your question about children needs to be addressed to some extent, but the answer is plain from Scripture and from Hebrew word study of Scripture. God is holy and just and will always do right (Gen. 18:25, Deut. 32:4,Ps. 99:5-9, Isa. 6:3). Plus as I will make the point below (in the last paragraph) it appears that the children didn't die at all (more on that later).
Therefore whether we understand or not is moot, we can rest assured that God would not eternally destroy the righteous or the innocent with the wicked. We must also study the term used in Num. 16:27 for little children. The Hebrew word is "taph" and does not refer to infants, and doesn't seem to mean toddlers either. Most of the time it means daughters as opposed to sons, or boys younger than 13 but older than just walking age. Young male children (and toddlers in ggeneral) are often mentioned with the Hebrew word "yeled". It seems from usage then that this passage is probably referring to daughters and boys between 6 and 12. They probably had some knowledge of what was going on and so could have easily been "guilty" or at least non-innocent. Finally, even if this view is accepted, and they went alive into Sheol, it is quite possible that any "innocent" children could have gone to the righteous Sheol, while Korah and the other rebellious men and women went to the place of punishment Sheol/Hades (see Psalm 16 and Isa 38 verses and note below). Also keep in mind the following passage in Isaiah. Not all the times that a righteous person dies is it a judgment, more often it is as a mercy, so he doesn't become more wicked, or stays around to be vexed by it.Isa. 57:1 The righteous perishes, And no man takes it to heart; Merciful men are taken away, While no one considers That the righteous is taken away from evil.


Num. 16:33 So they and all those with them went down alive into the pit [Sheol]; the earth closed over them, and they perished from among the assembly.

Example of Sheol as also being for the righteous dead in the O.T.
Ps 16:10 For You will not leave my soul in Sheol, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
Isa. 38:9-10 This is the writing of Hezekiah king of Judah, when he had been sick and had recovered from his sickness: I said, "In the prime of my life I shall go to the gates of Sheol; I am deprived of the remainder of my years."

All the passages below are translated "the grave", but the Hebrew word is Sheol, the same as in Num. 16

Gen. 37:35 And all his sons and all his daughters arose to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted, and he said, "For I shall go down into the grave to my son in mourning." Thus his father wept for him.
1 Sam. 2:6 "The LORD kills and makes alive; He brings down to the grave and brings up.
1 Kings 2:9 "Now therefore, do not hold him guiltless, for you are a wise man and know what you ought to do to him; but bring his gray hair down to the grave with blood."
Job 21:13 They spend their days in wealth, And in a moment go down to the grave.
Ps 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of You; In the grave who will give You thanks?
Ps 30:3 O LORD, You brought my soul up from the grave; You have kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit {Hebrew is bowr-meaning cistern}.
Ps 49:14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave; Death shall feed on them; The upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; And their beauty shall be consumed in the grave, far from their dwelling.
Ps 49:15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave, For He shall receive me. Selah
Ps 88:3 For my soul is full of troubles, And my life draws near to the grave.
Ecc. 9:10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going.
Hos. 13:14 "I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death. O Death, I will be your plagues! O Grave, I will be your destruction! Pity is hidden from My eyes."

But before I close, I want to make one more very important point. The children did not die. If you read the text carefully, you will see that it mentions the men and the households. So it is "assumed" that the children died too. In point of fact, they didn't.
Read Number 26:9-11 The sons of Eliab were Nemuel, Dathan, and Abiram. These are the Dathan and Abiram, representatives of the congregation, who contended against Moses and Aaron in the company of Korah, when they contended against the LORD; and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up together with Korah when that company died, when the fire devoured two hundred and fifty men; and they became a sign. Nevertheless the children of Korah did not die. It appears from Scripture that any children younger than 13 (and possibly even older) did not die. Only the men and their wives did. Apparently sometime between while Moses was talking in Num. 16:29-30 and the ground opened up, other family members had come and pulled the children away from the tents and men involved in the rebellion.

Sons of korah wrote psalm 42-49 still alive.

[Gilrandir]

It worked!!! Egyptians started believing in God after the 6th plague Ex 9.20 and were spared from the rest of the plagues.

This is the surefire recipe to increase the number of the faithful. No need to send preachers everywhere and propagate the Scripture. Just murder half of the population and the other half will agree that Yahweh Alone is God.

[Gilrandir]

The OT laws are not Gods perfect plan, but for a specific time and people coming from a ancient near eastern culture [Matt 19.8]

You are basically saying that:
1. God's plans are sometimes not perfect.
2. God is liable to change his laws depending on the time of application.

we cannot apply today's western standards to OT near eastern Jews.

It is not about US applying standards, it is about GOD using double standards. At certain time killing was OK, at others - not that much.

if they continue in fathers sins, they will be punished. When they continue in fathers sins will cause judgment, otherwise god would relent

Here's what Bible says:

Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me

Do show me where "continuing fathers sins" is mentioned. One doesn't have to continue anything. If your great-grandfather hated God, the latter will visit his anger upon you no matter what you think.

Just don't start the context thing.

Eve Was created in the image and likeness of god gen 1 26-28


ccc 370 In no way is God in man's image. He is neither man nor woman. God is pure spirit in which there is no place for the difference between the sexes.

A contradiction. How can a spirit have an image? Image of an object or a person is always something visible. Being in visible form a human must by default have an image of a man or a woman.

[total relism]

This is the surefire recipe to increase the number of the faithful. No need to send preachers everywhere and propagate the Scripture. Just murder half of the population and the other half will agree that Yahweh Alone is God.

lol not a usual tactic is it. No but nobody had died by the sixth plague. And a preacher was sent, his name is Moses. Nobody ever had to die was the point. If they chose to openly defy the one true god than the firstborn would be killed, not half the country.

[total relism]

Thanks for reading my posts and giving feedback.

You are basically saying that:
1. God's plans are sometimes not perfect.
2. God is liable to change his laws depending on the time of application.

No to the first, yes to the second. He works from the situation people are in. So before the fall he made only two laws for man, have sex and eat, one negative, dont eat of a single tree. With noah and the survivors, another, with Moses and Israelite in the land of Canaan surrounded by Canaanites, another etc

It is not about US applying standards, it is about GOD using double standards. At certain time killing was OK, at others - not that much.

All the time murder is wrong, killing is sometimes. If we make that distinction, than the supposed contradiction disapers.
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...s-to-the-Bible

Here's what Bible says:

Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me

Do show me where "continuing fathers sins" is mentioned. One doesn't have to continue anything. If your great-grandfather hated God, the latter will visit his anger upon you no matter what you think.

Just don't start the context thing.

Before we get to the passage I think you could not make the case from the bible. Think of Abraham, he was a pagan worshiping Canaanite, jethro his father in law, same thing, accepted that day he converted. The egyptians were pagans who converted and follow god. Rahab and her family at jericho, Ruth and naomi, among others. Over and over from the books of moses we have examples of people who converted to god and he did not punish them for their fathers sins. As the same book [also see Ezekiel 18:20] Deuteronomy says

Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin.
Deut. 24:16

I used the example from 1 Samuel 15 with the amalakites. They were punished for the sins of their fathers. yet they were the ones doing and continuing the sins their fathers committed, the very same sins of their fathers.


The mistake is to try and take any one passage from the bible and than create a theology from it instead of the bible as a whole. God never had DT 5.9 [the verse you quote] in his bible. Chapters and verses are man made thousands of years later. That is why the whole bible must be considered. This is why i think Christians have so many denominations. They try and build theology from man made verses or chapters alone. Calvinism is a great example imo.

A contradiction. How can a spirit have an image? Image of an object or a person is always something visible. Being in visible form a human must by default have an image of a man or a woman.

Its a good question I will look it up from a study i did on hebrews and Jesus being the image of god. But from the greek/hebrew the word does not mean physical, or at least does not have to. But relationship. I did a quick google search on your question from christian sources

https://answersingenesis.org/genesis...-image-of-god/
https://creation.com/made-in-the-image-of-god

God does appear in human form many times in the ot and nt of course as well.

[Gilrandir]

No to the first, yes to the second. He works from the situation people are in. So before the fall he made only two laws for man, have sex and eat , one negative, dont eat of a single tree. With noah and the survivors, another, with Moses and Israelite in the land of Canaan surrounded by Canaanites, another etc

The bold is wrong. He told them to produce offspring.

God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number;

So he never mentioned eating, and having sex WITHOUT conception. Moreover, he never called it a law or commandment or by any other binding word.

And as for liability to change laws, why, a time might come when adultory or theft will stop being a sin (a violation of god's law), like it is the case with homosexuality now. Or is it still a sin?

All the time murder is wrong, killing is sometimes. If we make that distinction, than the supposed contradiction disapers.

You contradict yourself. Murder was never forbidden to Adam and Eve (as you have said, there were only two laws at that time, murder wasn't mentioned in either). So techinically, if Adam had murdered Eve - or vice versa - they wouldn't have done anything against God's will.

Later murder WAS wrong. But, as you have noted, God is liable to overlook his treaties.

As the same book [also see Ezekiel 18:20] Deuteronomy says

Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin.
Deut. 24:16

So one and the same book of Bible contains two mutually exclusive quotes. That's what I have been saying on the consistancy of Bible as a source.

Chapters and verses are man made thousands of years later.

Do you realize that this admission turns Bible from the ultimte authority bearing the word of God into a hearsay?

That is why the whole bible must be considered.

Since it contains mutually excluding statements (see above) it is useless.

This is why i think Christians have so many denominations. They try and build theology from man made verses or chapters alone. Calvinism is a great example imo.

The existence of denominations has many reasons (like political, economic, etc.) among which theological ones are among many but in no way dominant.

Its a good question I will look it up from a study i did on hebrews and Jesus being the image of god. But from the greek/hebrew the word does not mean physical, or at least does not have to. But relationship. I did a quick google search on your question from christian sources

So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

This quote shows that god had at least two anthropomorphic images.

God does appear in human form many times in the ot and nt of course as well.

As a male or a female?

[HopAlongBunny]

Just a note.
Since we are talking about strictly OT, we cannot be talking about Christians. You do not have Christians until you have the NT.
To square anything in the OT with the teachings of Christ, it would have to meet (at minimum) the test of the Good Samaritan; perhaps that could be done with a few passages.
IMO keeping the OT around is to provide an excuse for vengeance and desire that Christ leaves little or no recourse to.

[Fragony]

Some people realy deserve it, we do not deserve having to keep them alive, it is not death penalty it is enforced euthanesia. Only when you are really reallly sure

[Gilrandir]

Just a note.
Since we are talking about strictly OT, we cannot be talking about Christians. You do not have Christians until you have the NT.
To square anything in the OT with the teachings of Christ, it would have to meet (at minimum) the test of the Good Samaritan; perhaps that could be done with a few passages.
IMO keeping the OT around is to provide an excuse for vengeance and desire that Christ leaves little or no recourse to.

IMO, since writing of OT and NT is separated by a couple of thousands years, the original language and protagonists those volumes have less right to be considered one book than, say, The Silmarillion, LOTR and The Hobbit.

[Gilrandir]

lol not a usual tactic is it.

No lol. It WAS a usual tactic by those in Middle Ages who ostensibly served God and purported to implement his will.

If they chose to openly defy the one true god than the firstborn would be killed, not half the country.

Only the firstborn? How unusually kind and merciful! Sounds much like Communists. Or Nazis.

[Fragony]

IMO, since writing of OT and NT is separated by a couple of thousands years, the original language and protagonists those volumes have less right to be considered one book than, say, The Silmarillion, LOTR and The Hobbit.

Total Realism is a really religious guy and that is ok with me, a moral discussion should be have about death penalty. It is not anything new, the cruelist death=penalty we used to have here was having your arms and legs broken, the 9th smash on the heart was mercy. Does not have to be like it is torture, but I sure like an open discussion on this, I already know how I look at things, and I absolutily think some people should just be put down. Religion should never be a factor, itś as irrevant as the hair on ass, but not everone deserves to be alive

[total relism]

No lol. It WAS a usual tactic by those in Middle Ages who ostensibly served God and purported to implement his will.



Only the firstborn? How unusually kind and merciful! Sounds much like Communists. Or Nazis.

I would assume you are referring to the crusades. You have to understand you wont get a fair historical perspective from the secular education system that has replaced Christianity nor the liberal media. Here is a thread I did on the historical crusades.

Thank God for the Crusades
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...r-the-Crusades


Nah they kill the whole bunch. I would also add the situation is much different.

[total relism]

Just a note.
Since we are talking about strictly OT, we cannot be talking about Christians. You do not have Christians until you have the NT.
To square anything in the OT with the teachings of Christ, it would have to meet (at minimum) the test of the Good Samaritan; perhaps that could be done with a few passages.
IMO keeping the OT around is to provide an excuse for vengeance and desire that Christ leaves little or no recourse to.

I would disagree for many reasons but a separate topic for another thread. But still, this is more on objections towards the OT as it is still viwed as gods word is it not by Christians?

[total relism]

The bold is wrong. He told them to produce offspring.

God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number;

So he never mentioned eating, and having sex WITHOUT conception. Moreover, he never called it a law or commandment or by any other binding word.

And as for liability to change laws, why, a time might come when adultory or theft will stop being a sin (a violation of god's law), like it is the case with homosexuality now. Or is it still a sin?

last i checked you had to have sex to produce offspring. But yes you are correct, sex and kids and it was not so much a law as go and do. Adultery, stealing etc moral wrongs are based on the nature of god and are always wrong. After the fall with death know in the world and the world changed, man could than start to eat meat is an example of a change in circumstances leading to a change in law.

Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything
Gen 9.3

You contradict yourself. Murder was never forbidden to Adam and Eve (as you have said, there were only two laws at that time, murder wasn't mentioned in either). So techinically, if Adam had murdered Eve - or vice versa - they wouldn't have done anything against God's will.

Later murder WAS wrong. But, as you have noted, God is liable to overlook his treaties.

Think you caught me, i like you. I was referring to today, murder is wrong [and always has been to god and always will be]. In your hypothetical situation it would still have been wrong but Adam simply would not have been guilty for it in front of god.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...Heard-of-Jesus

Adam was only given the command of not eating the tree so that is the only way he could have been guilty before god. Unless of course, gods law was given to adam and has been around since the beginning but just not recorded as some believe such as messianic Christians.

So one and the same book of Bible contains two mutually exclusive quotes. That's what I have been saying on the consistancy of Bible as a source.

and i have been saying dont look at verses but the bible as a whole and than it becomes a constant source. You want to ignore section that would clarify your seemingly wanted contradictions.

Do you realize that this admission turns Bible from the ultimte authority bearing the word of God into a hearsay?

no, it turns gods word into a sectional divided book for quick easy references [not my doing but i do enjoy it]. you by making those numbers elevated to gods word create false theologies and create contradictions [as do Christians].

Since it contains mutually excluding statements (see above) it is useless.

only so long as we elevate a verse number above gods word [the bible] and create a theology from the man made verse number instead of gods word. I am not here to defend mans numbers but gods word.

The existence of denominations has many reasons (like political, economic, etc.) among which theological ones are among many but in no way dominant.

Agreed. Good point. But I think the chapter/numbers contribute. Go attend a church and you will likely see pastors trying to create theology from one verse or chapter.

So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

This quote shows that god had at least two anthropomorphic images.



As a male or a female?

Or both were made in his image and being in his image is not material but spiritual.


male, as far as i am aware. of course not always as male or human form. He takes many forms.

[Gilrandir]

I would assume you are referring to the crusades. You have to understand you wont get a fair historical perspective from the secular education system that has replaced Christianity nor the liberal media.

Not only the crusades. Inquisition, St. Bartholomew's Night, Mallēus Maleficārum and other iniquitous things done in the name of God. I doubt non-secular educational system will find those a righteous thing to have been done.

As for the crusades, one whose favorite book in the History of Crusades by Steve Runciman doesn't need any threads to try to sway him this way or that in that matter. The thing that impressed me most was that Arabs were most liberal to pilgrims (with singular exceptions when a religious fanatic ruled the Fatimids) and Outremer Christians were allowed to pray their Gods. Moreover, most of the latter were Orthodox, and they openly resented taking their temples by Latin church warriors. Eventually, local Christians ended up being much worse off when ruled by Christian monarchs of Outremer than they had been by the infidel. So the initial premise of Crusades as liberation movement was fallacious from the outset - and ended in a failure.

[Crandar]

IMO, since writing of OT and NT is separated by a couple of thousands years, the original language and protagonists those volumes have less right to be considered one book than, say, The Silmarillion, LOTR and The Hobbit.

A couple of thousands of years is a gross exaggeration. At that time, writing wasn't even introduced to the Jewish communities. Even if we take the oldest texts into consideration, it was less than a millennium. In what concerns the newest ones, it was a couple of centuries.