17er Saints and Martyrs

[Raskolnikov]

U know I am not sure I am buying Wisdom posts rn, like ok they wanna test Visor, but a villa who knows they have to dip would park on a real sus and not some momemtum push.

[Raskolnikov]

Also I agree Vantas been pure today which arggll gives me pause there too.

[Raskolnikov]

Fool on me tbh. Letsgo

Vote: Wisdom

[nebjiamn]

Vote: Wisdom

this is 4/L-1

@arctic maj if you want

[Raskolnikov]

Well tbh I just reread stuff D2, D3 I think I am not moving my vote anymore. Wis has been constantly trying to claim cred for jinks and they just feel like a wolf to me. Plus I wanna believe I just voted woofs each day this game (lolololme)

[Arctic]

I'm not maj'ing I'm still reading I'm about 3/4 through the game (looking at wisdom posts)

and Tbh I'm not actually any more confident than I was before

But I want to post my thoughts either way

[nebjiamn]

Well tbh I just reread stuff D2, D3 I think I am not moving my vote anymore. Wis has been constantly trying to claim cred for jinks and they just feel like a wolf to me. Plus I wanna believe I just voted woofs each day this game (lolololme)

ya im goin back and forth all day but i think vanta has been kinda villagery on tone today and i just ... dont think / dont want it to be dya so idt im gona go there

if its ender im blaming all of you but theres enough traction v reading him there that im fine to drop it

[nebjiamn]

I'm not maj'ing I'm still reading I'm about 3/4 through the game (looking at wisdom posts)

and Tbh I'm not actually any more confident than I was before

But I want to post my thoughts either way

can you at least do it before bedtime

[Arctic]

I’ll try to think a bit now, at least, and pray Gemma doesn’t just nk me

what did she mean by this
@Wisdom

[Raskolnikov]

God I wanted a flip before sleeping but Arctic is prolly writing an essay that will make Hally's posts look like oneliners and Wis' prolly partying so I think I am gonna have a rum.

Barbancourt from Haïti, highly recommanded (kids, not for u, moderation etc etc)

[Arctic]

i'm gonna try to explain why i suspect wisdom is the wolf in more detail than i have previously but also in some kind of digestible format

i'll start with the way she's spoken about ther other wolves and why it's relevant. wisdom does struggle with TMI as a wolf and imo of everyone here, i'd consider her the most player to be the townsiding wolf that we know exists among our current playerlists (excepting ender, however I do think he's most likely clear from gemma). the game I brought up showed her townreading zero mafia and scumreading two of them as well as voting one early. this is not to say that she is a wolf for wolfreading wolves, just that if you consider her body of work on the surface it appears townsidey / only coming from a wolf struggling with TMI, but thinking about the pivotal moments in the game when things actually mattered, she wasn't advancing the town wincon

her reads on syn and visor easily fall into the w/w range because they focus on the way the slot is handling them (ladd w/warticle moment)

GH wolf reading me right off the bat is probably towny? I mean, it’s generally towny to wolf read me, especially if that's not a known habit (which Visor's read is).

Syn town reading me is also nai, I wrongly tunneled him for it last time and before that I correctly town read him for it. Again, when it's a habit it’s easier to fake, I have no read there.

Rask going hard on Syn looks good, town point for Rask.

Ladd seeming a bit lost is honestly a good look for him, another town point there. Not really sure why I initially got pinged by him.

GH wolf reading me right off the bat is probably towny? I mean, it’s generally towny to wolf read me, especially if that's not a known habit (which Visor's read is).

Syn town reading me is also nai, I wrongly tunneled him for it last time and before that I correctly town read him for it. Again, when it's a habit it’s easier to fake, I have no read there.

Rask going hard on Syn looks good, town point for Rask.

Ladd seeming a bit lost is honestly a good look for him, another town point there. Not really sure why I initially got pinged by him.

in the first post there's also the issue of townreading syn for hardpushing rask which reads as TMI to me (pushing wolves = good, which doesn't really track of wisdom's read on syn being null) but she has explained that she simply townread the aggression from rask so you can consider this null if you want but it still exists

and dya has already pointed out that the way visor spoke about syn - deferring reads on them to ladd/rask or asking someone else to read them - is similar to how he handled wisdom:

Ladd, raskol, talk to me about syn sil vous plait per favour

I have had the same thought process about wisdoms posts.... And misread them like 3 games in a row lol

Someone else can figure them out lol

tbh i am getting some kind of doubts because she has posted town lists where if she's the wolf they were 100% pure and this was like on day 2 but i've seen her do this as wolf so weh.. and when push came to shove she was trying to kill benneh over visor at eod2

also.. this

Gemma/Visor are two nice wagons imo.

I'm sad that I missed the party where it was fun to meme about GH being a wolf! I spent my morning reading that wall for nothing!

but then this next one just feels like TMI again:

If Visor is a wolf here then pushing Gemma is really the best course of action.

If Gemma is wolf then Visor is confident that he will go over her anyway so it's great distancing. If Gemma is town it pretty much forces her to hard claim which mostly just benefits wolves.

and so does this:

If Gemma is a wolf here then it makes sense for wolves to save the Murska kill until later, else it's going to look weird if Gemma is alive.
But yeah Jan being rolecopped feels more likely at this point.

like.. is this why wolves weren't killing murska lmao?


uhh there's the whole fiasco with how wisdom voted benneh over visor at eod and this has been talked about like thirty times so i don't think i'm gonna bother but i will briefly state that her claim of "testing visor" does not correlate with what she was actually doing at the time, which was deciding that visor was town and giving him a chance by killing benneh, before disappearing at eod

anyway moving on, there's the way gemma spoke about wisdom too - gemma felt a need to interact with her partners for some reason, she did this both with syn and visor, and her only mentions of wisdom are in a similar vein/equally superficial

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

sup wisdom

i pinged you in wolfchat pls respond

wisdom i think u should be v reading benneh more than u are

this is somewhat dependent on logic's flip but benneh was pushing visor/logic worlds throughout the game and day 2 never meaningfully entertained a logic yeet over visor.
a) this is a good look because visor was a wolf
b) this is a good look because visor is imo last preference bus on most wolf teams + you can shove onto logic there p easily to win time for visor to come back and pocket everyone
c) pushing that way without really hedging towards logic or anyone else (correct me if my memory of d2 is wrong here) or leaving yourself outs only ever makes sense in a world where benneh planned to take it all the way to f3 which is an insane thing to do on day 2 when you could just not bus the wolf, yes visor's thread position was terrible but again, its visor, everyone w read logic u just yeet logic
c part 2) if logic v then ig you bus more often because the shoving on logic to buy time angle makes you look bad (but then benneh just looks good for pushing wolf instead of villager)
d) now that i'm bringing this up i dont' understand why visor wouldnt have bussed logic for cred eod2 this is unrelated to benneh, wasnt he a viable wagon at that point
e) great now i've confused myself

i guess the next issue is how wisdom handled days 3 and 4, she was repping townreads on both logic and GH, the GH read was a little more nebulous and people were requesting to hammer so idc about this as much, but i feel like the natural progression there for a villager who was right on one of the consensus wolf slots flipping v to have a little more paranoia or concern on the next day, but wisdom was still perfectly happy to let logic die on day 4 instead of looking elsewhere despite giving actual decent reasons to townread him on day 2 (i think). i don't want to lamist but i could contrast this with how i was trying to kill wisdom on day 4 because i really didn't think logic was flipping wolf after his latest posts especially, but it felt like wisdom let the flips happen while being on the right side of history if you will, such that she could make a point of her townreading them

the way she handled gemma yesterday doesn't make much sense at all (pending her response to what i asked - if that post implied she was lock on gemma being a wolf then things are a bit more reasonable but then i question why she would have been so sure on it in the first place)

but she pretty much went from having no thoughts about her in her entry wallpost (noting gemma as a "still left to case" and then said this:

Gemma wolf?
Nice, seems plausible!
Could be worth looking into who pushed her first after the soft claim, that would very unlikely be a wolf mate.

Gemma first ofc

as though gemma was confirmed to be mafia, following the discussion in the thread at the time which seemed like everyone was gonna be piling on gemma because her claim wasn't believable at that point. she spends the rest of the day preflipping me and vanta with gemma and that's pretty much it

which kinda segues into my next issue with wisdom which is the way she's been handling my slot - particularly over the last two days, she quoted one or two things at a micro level to say i was towny but only took me out of her poe at the start of today after people were saying i clearly wasn't with gemma, and then all of a sudden after agreeing with hally's case on dya i'm apparently back in her poe again (after she previously held the stance of "if it's not vanta then idk who it is so gl"

Yeah Arctic's likely towning here.
Ender lock v.
Rask and dya and Benneh are probably also v.
I still don't have anything conclusive on Hally, if she wanna town case them that'd be great!

this was her worldview at the start of sod and it seems to have been flipped because of the post hally made which had nothing to do with me pretty much lol

i guess the main thing going for her here is that she'd probably want to elim vanta over dya because dya was townreading her and vanta wants her dead. but i guess it's a question of whether she'd want to keep around the easier elim or the one that makes her get less votes the next day

i dunno i'm not actually confident on all of this but the general impression i get is of a wolf TMI'ing the entire lobby. if she's actually v this kind of sucks because she's had really great reads but just handled them in a pro-wolf way and did nothing to save her townreads

there's not really something specific i can point to about this but i also want to nte that i have had no idea why she's been so confidently townreading the ender this entire game, i think it might have been for his eod posts or meta or osmething but it also feels strange

[Arctic]

dya fypov does hally need you out of the game to win?

i don't really know if she bothers to write that huge post about you as a wolf today ?

but maybe theres something to it fypov

I think it makes sense for hally to want to get dya out here first if she's mafia because dya is the most openly critical person of hally, vanta is the consensus yeet slot, and i'm kinda tunneled on wisdom

they might not go that hard but it's definitely the preferable elim for w!hally

[Raskolnikov]

Good post Arctic, it sums up pretty much what have been through my head the last 2 hours smh. gj

[Wisdom]

Here's where my head is: Hally's WP was very good, and left me believing Hally reallu believes it.

Wisdom's response to Hallly's WP was to immediately vote and I read into that vote "oh good a better suspect than Vanta."

I mean, yeah, I did town case you D5. I just think you've been *less* towny than everyone else, save Dya. I liked Hally's case, if they're right why shouldn't I listen to them?

[Vanta Black]

I think it makes sense for hally to want to get dya out here first if she's mafia because dya is the most openly critical person of hally, vanta is the consensus yeet slot, and i'm kinda tunneled on wisdom

they might not go that hard but it's definitely the preferable elim for w!hally

I think if Hally is wolfing she'd go for the one who already had 3 votes. Which I think I had at the time. I dunno, she said it took her five hours so maybe I didn't have 3 votes but I believe her conviction.

[Wisdom]

Sorry, I'm going to bed now but if you hammer me at least read through my reasoning behind why Ender is town and not w/w with Gemma!

[Arctic]

I mean, yeah, I did town case you D5. I just think you've been *less* towny than everyone else, save Dya. I liked Hally's case, if they're right why shouldn't I listen to them?

can you please explain every thought you have on my slot and also respond to my ping

[Wisdom]

Kinda tempting to self hammer and not have the responsibility of this game's outcome x) I feel bad enough from not defending gh/logic harder.

[Wisdom]

what did she mean by this
@Wisdom

If Gemma was the actual vig she probably should have shot me that night, considering I was accused of all sorts of stuff d4

[Wisdom]

can you please explain every thought you have on my slot and also respond to my ping

I'm in bed and on phone, so no, I won't wall (or read your wall, sorry for making you waste your time tho).

I thought you were sus d1, I thought EoD2 looked good for you, I later tinfoiled that I read that wrongly since it's not how I usually see your meta. I've come to realize that this silly tunnel of you most likely is clearing you but that's a bit late and everyone is already town reading you anyway.

[Wisdom]

I mean, if the main argument for me dying today is that my reads have been to good (despite all the flip flops lol)

I can live with that

[Wisdom]

Ender lock v
Rask lock v
Arctic likely v
Hally likely v
Benneh likely v

Leaves Dya/Vanta. I cased why Vanta/Gemma was likely w/w before Gemma even flipped. Hally cased Dya. Hopefully at least one of us is right.

[Wisdom]

It's sad that this bronana tunnel from rask is identical as the time where he mizzled me d1 (last game?), sad that his stubbornness makes him townier. No hard feelings though <3

[nebjiamn]

God I wanted a flip before sleeping but Arctic is prolly writing an essay that will make Hally's posts look like oneliners and Wis' prolly partying so I think I am gonna have a rum.

Barbancourt from Haïti, highly recommanded (kids, not for u, moderation etc etc)

idl rum

tequila for me

[Wisdom]

Ladd and Jan are screaming from dvc, I can hear it :3

[Raskolnikov]

It's sad that this bronana tunnel from rask is identical as the time where he mizzled me d1 (last game?), sad that his stubbornness makes him townier. No hard feelings though <3

stfu, I feel bad enough already lol (I think there was another game in-between but I am getting tired too, memory may be failing me. <3 Wis)

[Wisdom]

Vote: Vanta

Her approach to me today has been really stiff, in addition that she and Gemma pretty much ignored each other before eyes turned to them. And if I'm going to die anyway I'd rather end up where my own process took me, even though Hally's case was good. I suppose I can have a bit of pride even if I get mizzled!

[Wisdom]

stfu, I feel bad enough already lol (I think there was another game in-between but I am getting tired too, memory may be failing me. <3 Wis)

I'm not forcing you to vote me you know ^^' I could probably make use of the remaining 16 hours, even if I still die in the end.

[Raskolnikov]

idl rum

tequila for me

U didn't test quality ones I am not talking about the s!%? you mix with softs. I fancy a good tequila too though cheers

[Wisdom]

U didn't test quality ones I am not talking about the s!%? you mix with softs. I fancy a good tequila too though cheers

Both is good!
~Most spirits are good!