Gaza again

[Hooahguy]

So, Hamas actually violates the cease-fire and fires two rockets and more than half the respondents in this thread are okay with that.

Israel threatens a response, and that's enough to evoke condemnation from the same crowd.

And yet you all insist that you don't take sides. Fascinating case study in self-delusion and the affects of rancor.

well said, don.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Well lets see Seamus , how best to stop the rockets ?
Thats a hard one isn't it , lets think for a moment .
Didn't some people say they wouldn't fire rockets if the border crossings were opened ?
So I suppose a really crazy idea would be to open the border crossings and see if the rockets stopped .

And If they Don't, what then Tribes? Leave them open right? Because we can't block them in, god forbid! We must open the borders so weapons can be smuggled in! Great Idea!

[Crazed Rabbit]

How about something really mind blowing and radical. Something like having a viable nation that isn't blockaded, doesn't have it's infrastructure repeatedly destroyed, and who's citizens are free to travel and meet family members? I realise this is pure pie in the sky stuff

Yeah, because Hamas would still be trying to kill Israelis, and there'd still be chumps defending them.

And iIsrael claims they actually achieved something with all the violence

What has Hamas achieved with any of the violence they began? The people they rule over like dictators - are they better off?

CR

[Husar]

So, Hamas actually violates the cease-fire and fires two rockets and more than half the respondents in this thread are okay with that.

Israel threatens a response, and that's enough to evoke condemnation from the same crowd.

And yet you all insist that you don't take sides. Fascinating case study in self-delusion and the affects of rancor.

So your position is that Israel has all the right to bomb Palestine because they broke the ceasefuire?
Does that mean when a Mexican kills an American in the USA that the USA should bomb Mexico or is that kind of retaliation only valid in the Middle East?
I'm also not okay with firing rockets into Israel which is why I wish Israel would finally do something that actually stops those attacks instead of just bombing a lot of places because obviously that hasn't stopped the firing of rockets because some idiots just fired two rockets into Israel. Weird, isn't it?

[Don Corleone]

So your position is that Israel has all the right to bomb Palestine because they broke the ceasefuire?
Does that mean when a Mexican kills an American in the USA that the USA should bomb Mexico or is that kind of retaliation only valid in the Middle East?
I'm also not okay with firing rockets into Israel which is why I wish Israel would finally do something that actually stops those attacks instead of just bombing a lot of places because obviously that hasn't stopped the firing of rockets because some idiots just fired two rockets into Israel. Weird, isn't it?

You came close, Husar, this || close, to actually denouncing Hamas for firing rockets into Israel, but you just couldn't do it my friend, could you? Nope, you started heading that way, and reverted to it must be Israel's fault for not giving Hamas a good reason NOT to fire them.

Tribesman went so far as to enumerate Hamas' demands... opening the checkpoints, so that they can smuggle more suicide bombers into Israel. Imagine that! Let's just do whatever the antagonists want, and maybe if we ask nicely, they'll stop with the terrorism. Let me know how that works out for you, Neville.

Of course I don't want Israel restarting their part of hostilities. I just find it amazing how people talk about a cease fire that only one side choses to honor, and actually blame the side that IS honoring it for not doing enough to kowtow to the side that is not.

To follow your example, if the recognized government of Mexico was responsible for killing that American, or refusing to act on actionable intelligence with regards to what they were calling renegade actors, you can bet the US would take unilateral action to see it end.

Again everyone, please, try really hard. Look at who fired rockets, and ask yourself who is responsible. If you keep coming back to Israel, I submit you're nowhere near as unbiased as you believe yourself to be.

[Banquo's Ghost]

So, Hamas actually violates the cease-fire and fires two rockets and more than half the respondents in this thread are okay with that.

Israel threatens a response, and that's enough to evoke condemnation from the same crowd.

And yet you all insist that you don't take sides. Fascinating case study in self-delusion and the affects of rancor.

As ever in the Middle East, it's not that simple.

Hamas has not claimed the rocket strikes (as of writing). However, several tiny factions have. Israel of course, maintains that Hamas - as the governing party in Gaza - is completely responsible for all violent activities. Which is a valid point, save that they have just killed 80% of the police force and destroyed all of the institutions of government by which Hamas might (in the unlikely event of them being willing, but see below) control the inevitable nutters.

Meanwhile, Ehud Barak says he's within touching distance of an Egyptian brokered ceasefire that Hamas has all but signed up to, which he passionately believes will bring peace for at least a year. Unfortunately Tzipi Livni is telling anyone that will listen that this is rubbish, Israel must never negotiate with Hamas as that would lend them legitimacy and that strength and retaliation is the only option. By the way, these are the two government coalition partners vying for the premiership after 10 Feb. Chuckling at the polls that reveal an electorate convinced that both "moderate" parties are utter losers, Binyamin Netanyahu is planning his return to power at the head of Likud propped up by the seriously barking right wing Yisreal Beiteinu amongst other weirdos that would make even the most ardent pro-Israel backer blush in embarrassment.

So against the background of a recent poll that shows 41% of Israelis think the Gaza conflict worthwhile, as opposed to the 41% that think it was a busted flush, the choice is just about endless as to who to back or condemn.

So everyone returns the power to the utter extremists to destroy, at whim, any chance of progress to peace by over-reacting to any little provocation rather than trying for a solution despite rockets, airstrikes and endless circular death.

[Don Corleone]

As ever in the Middle East, it's not that simple.

Hamas has not claimed the rocket strikes (as of writing). However, several tiny factions have. Israel of course, maintains that Hamas - as the governing party in Gaza - is completely responsible for all violent activities. Which is a valid point, save that they have just killed 80% of the police force and destroyed all of the institutions of government by which Hamas might (in the unlikely event of them being willing, but see below) control the inevitable nutters.

Meanwhile, Ehud Barak says he's within touching distance of an Egyptian brokered ceasefire that Hamas has all but signed up to, which he passionately believes will bring peace for at least a year. Unfortunately Tzipi Livni is telling anyone that will listen that this is rubbish, Israel must never negotiate with Hamas as that would lend them legitimacy and that strength and retaliation is the only option. By the way, these are the two government coalition partners vying for the premiership after 10 Feb. Chuckling at the polls that reveal an electorate convinced that both "moderate" parties are utter losers, Binyamin Netanyahu is planning his return to power at the head of Likud propped up by the seriously barking right wing Yisreal Beiteinu amongst other weirdos that would make even the most ardent pro-Israel backer blush in embarrassment.

So against the background of a recent poll that shows 41% of Israelis think the Gaza conflict worthwhile, as opposed to the 41% that think it was a busted flush, the choice is just about endless as to who to back or condemn.

So everyone returns the power to the utter extremists to destroy, at whim, any chance of progress to peace by over-reacting to any little provocation rather than trying for a solution despite rockets, airstrikes and endless circular death.

Come on, B.Q. straight answer here... in the midst of the troubles, the IRA would have ended the existence of any splinter group within hours, let alone days, unless they wanted them around to throw blame on. Do you really think Hamas, as the ruling body of the Palestinian territories, is somehow LESS effective at asserting their will?

If somebody in Gaza is firing rockets on day one and still breathing on day two, it's because Hamas wants them doing both on day 3.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Come on, B.Q. straight answer here... in the midst of the troubles, the IRA would have ended the existence of any splinter group within hours, let alone days, unless they wanted them around to throw blame on. Do you really think Hamas, as the ruling body of the Palestinian territories, is somehow LESS effective at asserting their will?

If somebody in Gaza is firing rockets on day one and still breathing on day two, it's because Hamas wants them doing both on day 3.

You may have heard of the Real IRA, the Continuity IRA, INLA. If not perhaps you'll recall the Omagh bombing and when it took place. Interestingly, if you read the Troubles thread, you will also discover how much the British government was also involved in facilitating the activities of some of these groups in addition to the PIRA. Oh, and let's not get into the various Unionist nutters and how they ran rings around each other (and still do).

As I said, these things are never simple. There are not many lessons to be drawn from the Northern Ireland experience in relation to the Levant, but pragmatism, making peace despite extremist attempts to derail, and letting go of the need to have "condemnation" and tit-for-tat reprisals are just some of the more important.

And finally, that the bitterest of enemies, once dedicated to the other's utter destruction, can end up running the country together. Oddly, terrorists can make great leaders and advance peace - ask Menachem Begin.

[Don Corleone]

Guess we're going to have to agree to disagree, BQ. For starters, I contend that the Real IRA did nothing without tacit approval from the IRA. The IRA had too much control for a splinter group to act with impunity for long. Say what you will, I will never swallow as plausible that the IRA didn't know and approve what the so-called splinter groups were up to, any more than I will accept as plausible that the rockets coming out of Gaza in the past few days weren't ordered directly by Hamas leadership.

Guess I'm just not all that bright. You see, to me, when Hamas fires rockets at Israel, that would mean Hamas is culpable. But I respect the posters who've spoken in this thread. They're intelligent, wise and considerate. And they claim to be objective and unbiased on this matter. And they declare that its Israel's fault that Hamas is violating the cease-fire, so I am certain it must be so.

Although, I do have to thank you all for a new level of euphemism with your self-description as objective and unbiased.

[Lemur]

Although, I do have to thank you all for a new level of euphemism with your self-description as objective and unbiased.

Don, I was curious when I read this, so I ran a text search on the entire thread, looking for "objective," "bias" and "unbiased." The only place those words were used was in your post. Could you clarify what you're referencing, please?

[HoreTore]

Guess I'm just not all that bright. You see, to me, when Hamas fires rockets at Israel, that would mean Hamas is culpable. But I respect the posters who've spoken in this thread. They're intelligent, wise and considerate. And they claim to be objective and unbiased on this matter. And they declare that its Israel's fault that Hamas is violating the cease-fire, so I am certain it must be so.

As long as the settlers still remain on Palestinian land, any cease-fire from Israel is meaningless. Remove them, then we can talk.

[Idaho]

So, Hamas actually violates the cease-fire and fires two rockets and more than half the respondents in this thread are okay with that.

Israel threatens a response, and that's enough to evoke condemnation from the same crowd.

And yet you all insist that you don't take sides. Fascinating case study in self-delusion and the affects of rancor.

Of course I'm not ok with it. But I am far more concerned about state of the art fighter jets killing hundreds than I am about a few rockets killing no-one.

The Israelis are threatening illegal, immoral and expressly disproportionate collective punishment in response to a small scale illegal and immoral rocket attack.

[Idaho]

Yeah, because Hamas would still be trying to kill Israelis, and there'd still be chumps defending them.

Israel and the US say:

"The Palestinians are natural terrorists who will kill us all, don't talk to them or negotiate"

The rest of the world says:

"No they aren't, stop bombing, blockading and stealing their land, and talk"

[HoreTore]

Israel and the US say:

"The Palestinians are natural terrorists who will kill us all, don't talk to them or negotiate"

The rest of the world says:

"No they aren't, stop bombing, blockading and stealing their land, and talk"

"If you want to make peace with your enemy, you have to work with your enemy. Then he becomes your partner. " - Nelson Mandela

[Banquo's Ghost]

Guess we're going to have to agree to disagree, BQ. For starters, I contend that the Real IRA did nothing without tacit approval from the IRA. The IRA had too much control for a splinter group to act with impunity for long. Say what you will, I will never swallow as plausible that the IRA didn't know and approve what the so-called splinter groups were up to, any more than I will accept as plausible that the rockets coming out of Gaza in the past few days weren't ordered directly by Hamas leadership.

As you will, Don.

[Strike For The South]

Israel and the US say:

"The Palestinians are natural terrorists who will kill us all, don't talk to them or negotiate"

The rest of the world says:

"No they aren't, stop bombing, blockading and stealing their land, and talk"

The rest of the world doesn't say that. I'm sure we still have some sway in Latin America or Africa.

Hamas has stated there goal many times. The populace is indoctrinated by imams who demand the killing of the jew.

I do not agree with everything Israel does. But the Palestinians need to be more pragmatic about this whole thing. Sure playing god fearing martyr is cute and makes good press for the bleeding hearts but it doesn't get jack dandy done.

There are arabs who live peacefully in Israel. It doesn't work the other way around thats the most telling thing.

[Don Corleone]

Of course I'm not ok with it. But I am far more concerned about state of the art fighter jets killing hundreds than I am about a few rockets killing no-one.

The Israelis are threatening illegal, immoral and expressly disproportionate collective punishment in response to a small scale illegal and immoral rocket attack.

They are threatening a hypothetical response to a very real attack. You and others are willing to shriek and decry a threat, but you won't speak up about a very real action (well, actually Idaho, to your credit, you just did, but you're the first).

Put another way, I can show you where the latest round of rocket attacks occurred. Show me where the IDF has launched another airstrike.

[Don Corleone]

Don, I was curious when I read this, so I ran a text search on the entire thread, looking for "objective," "bias" and "unbiased." The only place those words were used was in your post. Could you clarify what you're referencing, please?

I opened a thread about a week ago, asking people why we dance this dance, and simultaneously asking people which side of the dance hall they stand on.

A whole bunch of people responded they had no partiality on the matter, but yet somehow, in their posts, Hamas is always right, the IDF is always wrong.

I admit to being partial to one side. Laugh at me for admitting if you care to, ridicule me for asking you your admitted stance, but don't insult my intelligence by claiming you don't have one. (Not you personally, speaking to the group as a whole).

[Hooahguy]

"If you want to make peace with your enemy, you have to work with your enemy. Then he becomes your partner. " - Nelson Mandela

but it has to be done peacefully. if the palestinians REALLY wanted peace, they would stop launching rockets.
no point in trying to befriend your enemy if they will just stab you in the back a bit down the road.

[Lemur]

I get it, Don, thanks for the assist. I didn't read the earlier Gaza thread, so I was in the dark.

Personally, my feelings about the Israelis and the Palestinians could be best summed up by Lt. Ellen Ripley: "I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure."

If we're not allowed to nuke the holy land, I say we forcibly move all of the Israelis and Palestinians to North and South Dakota, respectively, and we give Greater Israel to the Navajo. That would work, too.

[Tribesman]

So, Hamas actually violates the cease-fire and fires two rockets and more than half the respondents in this thread are okay with that.

How have they violated the ceasefire Don ?

Tribesman went so far as to enumerate Hamas' demands... opening the checkpoints, so that they can smuggle more suicide bombers into Israel.

Don its the "moderates" of Fatah that does that , are you getting confused?

[Hooahguy]

How have they violated the ceasefire Don ?

people in gaza fired rockets. though it was fatah who did it, hamas has jurisdiction over the area. they are expected to get control over the populace.

[Tribesman]

people in gaza fired rockets.

How does that violate the ceasefire ?

[Hooahguy]

they promised not to.

[Tribesman]

they promised not to.

No they didn't .

[Husar]

A whole bunch of people responded they had no partiality on the matter, but yet somehow, in their posts, Hamas is always right, the IDF is always wrong.

Hamas isn't right and I do not have much sympathy for them, those rocket attacks are despicable and I said so before, maybe while you were away, I'm not supporting Hamas and their rocket attacks but like Banquo I do not believe they have a lot of control over their region, those rockets are home-made and they don't come from some conveyor belt from Hamas Rockets Inc. The way it looks some random nutter could set up one of those and fire them into the general direction of city xyz. That doesn't mean Hamas didn't do it but then even through a ceasefire the Palestinians are in a state of occupation, which gives their nutters an excuse to kill innocent people and that gives the israeli nutters an excuse to kill even more innocent people, that gives the palestinian nutters an excuse to kill more innocent people which...yes, obviously retaliation will lead us...somewhere like to even-more-retaliation-land.
That I want Israel to stop the violence first may be because I hope that they might be the slightly more reasonable nutters or even have more moderates due to their relative wealth and prosperity(poor people are more likely to be desperate and violent) and could actually start such a peace process. I do however refuse to say I side with Israel because right now they still behave like nutters who keep participating in this circle of violence, just like whoever fired those rockets.

My hopes that it will ever end are relatively low because in that region saying "ok, we take this and will give you a bit more freedom to make you happy" is seen as weakness by almost everybody which IMO is just retarded and causes this whole mess in the first place, but hey, gotta be a real man etc. blablabla.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

If I am to believe those of the pro-Hamas (or, rather, anti-Israel) bent, I would believe that these attacks made Hamas stronger - and yet weakened them so much that they have no control over who fires rockets, and that they certainly aren't responsible for the rockets.

In the words of one of my least favourite modern politicians, you must now choose between those two lies.

[CountArach]

So they have to use their war-chest that is filled with the money that was meant for aid to actually at least appear to give a crap, and you call that backfiring at Israel?

Think about it:
1) Your house is destroyed
2) Your family is killed
3) Hamas comes up to and says "Here's 4000 Euroes, no strings attached"
4) Israel invades again

Who do you support?

[Strike For The South]

Well if a Euroes is anything like an Oreo than them!

[Hooahguy]

Five mortar shells fired from northern Gaza landed in Sha'ar Hanegev Regional Council limits. Two people suffered mild injuries.