On the Path to the Streets of Gold: a Suebi AAR
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Hvil i fred HoreToreA man who casts no shadow has no soul.
Yeah, because Hamas would still be trying to kill Israelis, and there'd still be chumps defending them.
What has Hamas achieved with any of the violence they began? The people they rule over like dictators - are they better off?And iIsrael claims they actually achieved something with all the violence
CR
Ja Mata, Tosa.
The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder
So your position is that Israel has all the right to bomb Palestine because they broke the ceasefuire?
Does that mean when a Mexican kills an American in the USA that the USA should bomb Mexico or is that kind of retaliation only valid in the Middle East?
I'm also not okay with firing rockets into Israel which is why I wish Israel would finally do something that actually stops those attacks instead of just bombing a lot of places because obviously that hasn't stopped the firing of rockets because some idiots just fired two rockets into Israel. Weird, isn't it?
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"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
You came close, Husar, this || close, to actually denouncing Hamas for firing rockets into Israel, but you just couldn't do it my friend, could you?Nope, you started heading that way, and reverted to it must be Israel's fault for not giving Hamas a good reason NOT to fire them.
Tribesman went so far as to enumerate Hamas' demands... opening the checkpoints, so that they can smuggle more suicide bombers into Israel. Imagine that! Let's just do whatever the antagonists want, and maybe if we ask nicely, they'll stop with the terrorism. Let me know how that works out for you, Neville.
Of course I don't want Israel restarting their part of hostilities. I just find it amazing how people talk about a cease fire that only one side choses to honor, and actually blame the side that IS honoring it for not doing enough to kowtow to the side that is not.
To follow your example, if the recognized government of Mexico was responsible for killing that American, or refusing to act on actionable intelligence with regards to what they were calling renegade actors, you can bet the US would take unilateral action to see it end.
Again everyone, please, try really hard. Look at who fired rockets, and ask yourself who is responsible. If you keep coming back to Israel, I submit you're nowhere near as unbiased as you believe yourself to be.
Last edited by Don Corleone; 02-02-2009 at 19:23.
"A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.
"Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
Strike for the South
As ever in the Middle East, it's not that simple.
Hamas has not claimed the rocket strikes (as of writing). However, several tiny factions have. Israel of course, maintains that Hamas - as the governing party in Gaza - is completely responsible for all violent activities. Which is a valid point, save that they have just killed 80% of the police force and destroyed all of the institutions of government by which Hamas might (in the unlikely event of them being willing, but see below) control the inevitable nutters.
Meanwhile, Ehud Barak says he's within touching distance of an Egyptian brokered ceasefire that Hamas has all but signed up to, which he passionately believes will bring peace for at least a year. Unfortunately Tzipi Livni is telling anyone that will listen that this is rubbish, Israel must never negotiate with Hamas as that would lend them legitimacy and that strength and retaliation is the only option. By the way, these are the two government coalition partners vying for the premiership after 10 Feb. Chuckling at the polls that reveal an electorate convinced that both "moderate" parties are utter losers, Binyamin Netanyahu is planning his return to power at the head of Likud propped up by the seriously barking right wing Yisreal Beiteinu amongst other weirdos that would make even the most ardent pro-Israel backer blush in embarrassment.
So against the background of a recent poll that shows 41% of Israelis think the Gaza conflict worthwhile, as opposed to the 41% that think it was a busted flush, the choice is just about endless as to who to back or condemn.
So everyone returns the power to the utter extremists to destroy, at whim, any chance of progress to peace by over-reacting to any little provocation rather than trying for a solution despite rockets, airstrikes and endless circular death.
"If there is a sin against life, it consists not so much in despairing as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this one."
Albert Camus "Noces"
Come on, B.Q. straight answer here... in the midst of the troubles, the IRA would have ended the existence of any splinter group within hours, let alone days, unless they wanted them around to throw blame on. Do you really think Hamas, as the ruling body of the Palestinian territories, is somehow LESS effective at asserting their will?
If somebody in Gaza is firing rockets on day one and still breathing on day two, it's because Hamas wants them doing both on day 3.
"A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.
"Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
Strike for the South
You may have heard of the Real IRA, the Continuity IRA, INLA. If not perhaps you'll recall the Omagh bombing and when it took place. Interestingly, if you read the Troubles thread, you will also discover how much the British government was also involved in facilitating the activities of some of these groups in addition to the PIRA. Oh, and let's not get into the various Unionist nutters and how they ran rings around each other (and still do).
As I said, these things are never simple. There are not many lessons to be drawn from the Northern Ireland experience in relation to the Levant, but pragmatism, making peace despite extremist attempts to derail, and letting go of the need to have "condemnation" and tit-for-tat reprisals are just some of the more important.
And finally, that the bitterest of enemies, once dedicated to the other's utter destruction, can end up running the country together. Oddly, terrorists can make great leaders and advance peace - ask Menachem Begin.
"If there is a sin against life, it consists not so much in despairing as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this one."
Albert Camus "Noces"
Guess we're going to have to agree to disagree, BQ. For starters, I contend that the Real IRA did nothing without tacit approval from the IRA. The IRA had too much control for a splinter group to act with impunity for long. Say what you will, I will never swallow as plausible that the IRA didn't know and approve what the so-called splinter groups were up to, any more than I will accept as plausible that the rockets coming out of Gaza in the past few days weren't ordered directly by Hamas leadership.
Guess I'm just not all that bright. You see, to me, when Hamas fires rockets at Israel, that would mean Hamas is culpable. But I respect the posters who've spoken in this thread. They're intelligent, wise and considerate. And they claim to be objective and unbiased on this matter. And they declare that its Israel's fault that Hamas is violating the cease-fire, so I am certain it must be so.
Although, I do have to thank you all for a new level of euphemism with your self-description as objective and unbiased.![]()
Last edited by Don Corleone; 02-02-2009 at 20:33.
"A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.
"Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
Strike for the South
Last edited by Lemur; 02-02-2009 at 20:40.
Of course I'm not ok with it. But I am far more concerned about state of the art fighter jets killing hundreds than I am about a few rockets killing no-one.
The Israelis are threatening illegal, immoral and expressly disproportionate collective punishment in response to a small scale illegal and immoral rocket attack.
"The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney
"The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney
The rest of the world doesn't say that. I'm sure we still have some sway in Latin America or Africa.
Hamas has stated there goal many times. The populace is indoctrinated by imams who demand the killing of the jew.
I do not agree with everything Israel does. But the Palestinians need to be more pragmatic about this whole thing. Sure playing god fearing martyr is cute and makes good press for the bleeding hearts but it doesn't get jack dandy done.
There are arabs who live peacefully in Israel. It doesn't work the other way around thats the most telling thing.
There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford
My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.
I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.
They are threatening a hypothetical response to a very real attack. You and others are willing to shriek and decry a threat, but you won't speak up about a very real action (well, actually Idaho, to your credit, you just did, but you're the first).
Put another way, I can show you where the latest round of rocket attacks occurred. Show me where the IDF has launched another airstrike.
"A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.
"Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
Strike for the South
I opened a thread about a week ago, asking people why we dance this dance, and simultaneously asking people which side of the dance hall they stand on.
A whole bunch of people responded they had no partiality on the matter, but yet somehow, in their posts, Hamas is always right, the IDF is always wrong.
I admit to being partial to one side. Laugh at me for admitting if you care to, ridicule me for asking you your admitted stance, but don't insult my intelligence by claiming you don't have one. (Not you personally, speaking to the group as a whole).
"A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.
"Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
Strike for the South
Last edited by Hooahguy; 02-02-2009 at 21:42.
On the Path to the Streets of Gold: a Suebi AAR
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Hvil i fred HoreToreA man who casts no shadow has no soul.
I get it, Don, thanks for the assist. I didn't read the earlier Gaza thread, so I was in the dark.
Personally, my feelings about the Israelis and the Palestinians could be best summed up by Lt. Ellen Ripley: "I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure."
If we're not allowed to nuke the holy land, I say we forcibly move all of the Israelis and Palestinians to North and South Dakota, respectively, and we give Greater Israel to the Navajo. That would work, too.
Last edited by Lemur; 02-02-2009 at 21:15.
How have they violated the ceasefire Don ?So, Hamas actually violates the cease-fire and fires two rockets and more than half the respondents in this thread are okay with that.
Tribesman went so far as to enumerate Hamas' demands... opening the checkpoints, so that they can smuggle more suicide bombers into Israel.
Don its the "moderates" of Fatah that does that , are you getting confused?
On the Path to the Streets of Gold: a Suebi AAR
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Hvil i fred HoreToreA man who casts no shadow has no soul.
How does that violate the ceasefire ?people in gaza fired rockets.
they promised not to.![]()
On the Path to the Streets of Gold: a Suebi AAR
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Hvil i fred HoreToreA man who casts no shadow has no soul.
No they didn't .they promised not to.
Hamas isn't right and I do not have much sympathy for them, those rocket attacks are despicable and I said so before, maybe while you were away, I'm not supporting Hamas and their rocket attacks but like Banquo I do not believe they have a lot of control over their region, those rockets are home-made and they don't come from some conveyor belt from Hamas Rockets Inc. The way it looks some random nutter could set up one of those and fire them into the general direction of city xyz. That doesn't mean Hamas didn't do it but then even through a ceasefire the Palestinians are in a state of occupation, which gives their nutters an excuse to kill innocent people and that gives the israeli nutters an excuse to kill even more innocent people, that gives the palestinian nutters an excuse to kill more innocent people which...yes, obviously retaliation will lead us...somewhere like to even-more-retaliation-land.
That I want Israel to stop the violence first may be because I hope that they might be the slightly more reasonable nutters or even have more moderates due to their relative wealth and prosperity(poor people are more likely to be desperate and violent) and could actually start such a peace process. I do however refuse to say I side with Israel because right now they still behave like nutters who keep participating in this circle of violence, just like whoever fired those rockets.
My hopes that it will ever end are relatively low because in that region saying "ok, we take this and will give you a bit more freedom to make you happy" is seen as weakness by almost everybody which IMO is just retarded and causes this whole mess in the first place, but hey, gotta be a real man etc. blablabla.![]()
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"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
If I am to believe those of the pro-Hamas (or, rather, anti-Israel) bent, I would believe that these attacks made Hamas stronger - and yet weakened them so much that they have no control over who fires rockets, and that they certainly aren't responsible for the rockets.
In the words of one of my least favourite modern politicians, you must now choose between those two lies.
Rest in Peace TosaInu, the Org will be your legacy
Originally Posted by Leon Blum - For All Mankind
Well if a Euroes is anything like an Oreo than them!
There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford
My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.
I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.
Five mortar shells fired from northern Gaza landed in Sha'ar Hanegev Regional Council limits. Two people suffered mild injuries.
On the Path to the Streets of Gold: a Suebi AAR
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Hvil i fred HoreToreA man who casts no shadow has no soul.
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