The Europa Barbarorum Quotes Project

**Teleklos Archelaou** · 07-08-2009, 02:21

Originally Posted by Elmetiacos

I read the original Latin just to make sure it was really there, but it didn't strike me before that it doesn't actually mean "all things are the property of the brave" or "To the brave belong all things": Omnia fortium uirorum (esse) is "all (be) to the strong men" literally. If you'll indulge me, this sounds quite poetic in reconstructed Gaulish: *Papon uirobo peprobo buet

Bah.

It very literally and clearly does mean "all things are the property of the brave". Genitives in Latin have the nasty habit of indicating possession, even in Livy. This example follows that general rule and shows possession.

**Elmetiacos** · 07-08-2009, 20:29

Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou

Bah.

It very literally and clearly does mean "all things are the property of the brave". Genitives in Latin have the nasty habit of indicating possession, even in Livy. This example follows that general rule and shows possession.

and esse is what form of the verb?

**Urg** · 07-08-2009, 23:27

Originally Posted by Elmetiacos

and esse is what form of the verb?

Esse is the present infinitive.

The complete sentence from Livy is very long, but to make sense of the latin here is a chunk of the sentence which puts the quote in its context:

"cum illi se in armis ius ferre et omnia fortium uirorum esse ferociter dicerent"

which translates as:

"...and on their fiercely replying, that they carried their right in their swords, that all things were the property of the brave..."

That translation is from the 1850s and is a bit dated. In my view a better modern translation would give the verb "esse" a present tense (ie. "all things are the property..."). Not only is this a better translation for modern english, but it also more accurately reflects the fact that esse is present (infinitive) tense.

The reason it is infinitive is quite simple. It follows the verb dicerent, ie. "They said that all things are the property of the brave..."

**Elmetiacos** · 07-08-2009, 23:44

Originally Posted by Urg

Esse is the present infinitive...

...The reason it is infinitive is quite simple. It follows the verb dicerent, ie. "They said that all things are the property of the brave..."

Latin isn't my strong point: am I wrong is associating this esse with Cato's Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam ('furthermore, I think Carthage must be destroyed') so that it has an imperative or subjunctive function ''all things should belong to the brave"?

**A Terribly Harmful Name** · 07-08-2009, 23:51

"Furthermore, (I) think Carthage (must) be destroyed"

You are right.

**Urg** · 07-09-2009, 02:08

Originally Posted by Elmetiacos

Latin isn't my strong point: am I wrong is associating this esse with Cato's Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam ('furthermore, I think Carthage must be destroyed') so that it has an imperative or subjunctive function ''all things should belong to the brave"?

Mine's pretty rusty too.

The ordinary meaning of esse is "to be". In linguistic speak it is the "infinitive" (eg. to run, to bite, etc) of the verb sum ("I am"). In english the same verb has many forms even in its present tense (eg. I am, he is, they are).

In latin the verb esse also has a special role to play alongside other verbs. In the example you give the verb is delendam esse which is a conjugation of the verb deleo (I destroy), delere (to destroy).

The form delendam esse is what is called the "gerundive" (we do not have it in english) and implies a requirement to do, or not to do, something. Delendam esse literally means "it is required to be destroyed".

Esse is also used with latin verbs to form other tenses and forms.

Does that make sense?

So the answer to your question is: esse is the same word on each occasion, but it has a wholly different meaning in each case.

**option** · 07-09-2009, 04:14

Not sure if this has been mentioned before, but I was just reading History of the Peloponnesian War when I came across this beautiful quote:

This day will be the beginning of great misfortune for the Hellenes. - Melesippus, the final Spartan herald to Athens, on being rebuffed by the Athenians, 431 BC

Thucydides (edited by Robert B. Strassler, trans. by Richard Crawley), History of the Peloponnesian War (as presented within Strassler's The Landmark Thucydides), Book Two, 2.12.3

**Teleklos Archelaou** · 07-09-2009, 04:18

Originally Posted by Elmetiacos

and esse is what form of the verb?

Nothing to do with passive periphrastics (though they can be in indirect speech too as Cato's comment was related), but subordinate to a verb of thinking/knowing/saying/etc. (here dicerent) the infinitive is indeed translated as a finite verb in indirect discourse. Thanks for trying to prove other people are wrong twice within three (or four) words in something you're admittedly unsure of though; that takes some balls.

**Urg** · 07-09-2009, 07:28

Hey I didn't mind him asking a question about the quote I found. It gave me the chance to review my understanding of latin.

Latin is, admittedly, a bit confusing at times.

**Elmetiacos** · 07-09-2009, 15:18

Ah well, in that case buet isn't the correct form in Gaulish, or probably isn't, because the consensus is that it's the 3rd person subjunctive of the verb meaning "to be". So it's literally "(that) all is of the brave/strong men"? *Papon uiron pepron biet - assuming *papon < Proto-Celtic *kwakwo- is neuter. Don't know why I assumed that, really.

**Alsatia** · 07-09-2009, 22:09

Here's two from the bible,

"So be strong and courageous! Do not be afrais and panic before them for the lord your god will personally go ahead of you."
- The Bible (Deuteronomy 31:6)

"Just as death and destruction are never satisfied, so human desire is never satisfied."
- The Bible (Proverbs 27:20)

I cannot get a hebrew translation because I don't trust online translators and I don't have an extensive knowledge on hebrew.

(The verses are from the NLT[New Living Translation])

**Horatius** · 11-26-2009, 05:05

I haven't read all the quotes yet so I may post something already stated

I noticed the thread asked for usually overlooked quotes so here is what I came up with.

I am putting these up from memory, so feel free to correct me I won't be offended.

"They make a desert and call it peace"-Calgachus

"Why should we share the penalty when we do not share the guilt? Why should we pay taxes when we have no part in the honours, the commands, the policy making?"-Hortensia

"Qui Bono (Who benefits)"-Cicero, trial of Sextus Roscius

"I can not stop for even as I do this I fear one day the order may be given for Rome"-Scipio Aemelianus

""Writing a poem you can read to no one is like dancing in
the dark."-Ovid