The Death of Respect

[rory_20_uk]

Very good point.

It should be based on Fraiser Competance - once one has the ability to understand cause and effect and is cogniscent about one's actions, one should be treated as an adult (not sure what happens to those who never appear to grasp this though...)

Some would be treated as an adult far earlier than others. The concept of "teenagers" and child employment laws was to reduce the supply of employment to the labour market rather than based on the length of time in education that would benefit the individual.

It's hardly surprising that some teenagers or even children forced to avt as as an adult due to parental invapacity often can do so with little difficulty, as we've now got to the point where people don't have to be independent until they're well over the age of 20.

10 year olds in the mines isn't great, but neither is 25 year olds who are barely on solids.

[Vladimir]

So that means it's ok for my boss to hit me if I'm out of line, right?

And it's perfectly alright to slap my gf if she's out of line too?

I'd slap you AND your girlfriend when you two get out of line.

[Vladimir]

Very good point.

It should be based on Fraiser Competance - once one has the ability to understand cause and effect and is cogniscent about one's actions, one should be treated as an adult (not sure what happens to those who never appear to grasp this though...)

It's been proven that the part of the brain responsible for this reaches maturity at around age 25. The same age car insurance rates go down.

[HoreTore]

I'd slap you AND your girlfriend when you two get out of line.

Well the girlfriend thing was kinda hypothetical, I'm single now...

But I think I'll be getting out of line very soon, Vladimir.....

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

So that means it's ok for my boss to hit me if I'm out of line, right?

And it's perfectly alright to slap my gf if she's out of line too?

I would say there is a difference between disciplining a child and another adult. For example, if your boss is out of line, he can fire you. If your girlfriend is out of line, you can break up with her. If a child is somewhere he doesn't want to be, you can't send him home - so what are you going to do? Children, and indeed people in general, don't care about receiving punishment if it isn't effective. If there are effective ways of disciplining a student without violence, those are obviously to be preferred, but there are some cases where a cane may well be necessary.

That being said, this raises the important question of whether the teacher should have the right to cane the student, which I have mixed feelings on since discipline should be primarily the responsibility of the family and not the state.

[HoreTore]

I would say there is a difference between disciplining a child and another adult. For example, if your boss is out of line, he can fire you. If your girlfriend is out of line, you can break up with her. If a child is somewhere he doesn't want to be, you can't send him home - so what are you going to do? Children, and indeed people in general, don't care about receiving punishment if it isn't effective. If there are effective ways of disciplining a student without violence, those are obviously to be preferred, but there are some cases where a cane may well be necessary.

That being said, this raises the important question of whether the teacher should have the right to cane the student, which I have mixed feelings on since discipline should be primarily the responsibility of the family and not the state.

Violence is violence.

I'll never compromise on that.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I've never understood why physical violence is seen any differently from other ways of harming people.

[Vladimir]

Well the girlfriend thing was kinda hypothetical, I'm single now...

But I think I'll be getting out of line very soon, Vladimir.....

*mumbles something about needing a ball-gag smiley*

[Meneldil]

Violence is violence.

I'll never compromise on that.

Are you one of those 'children shall not be spanked/slaped' hippies?

As for the topic, I doubt there's such a thing as a death of respect. There probably was more violence, street crimes, rapes so on going on in the early 20th than nowadays (at least in your average place in Europe). Thing is, petty crime gets much more media coverage than it used to back then. When gangs used to fight with guns in the poors neighbourhoods of Paris in 1905, nobody cared basically. Now, when two gangs fight in a suburb near Paris, it makes the headline in any decent newspaper. People claim this is the downfall of civilization, the end of our nation and what not.

Sure, happy slapping is disgusting, and I think people who commit such acts should be shot immediatly when caught. Sure, hearing about a 15 year old kid stabbing his teacher is revolting. But meh, is it something new? I seriously doubt it, though I may be wrong.
What I might agree with is that violence is much more tolerated nowadays, maybe because we all turned into cowards/hippies/people who don't give a damn.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Violence is violence.

I'll never compromise on that.

So you never think it is justifiable in any scenario?

[HoreTore]

So you never think it is justifiable in any scenario?

Nope.

[FactionHeir]

So you'd be all nice to a terrorist and not even touch him if he threatens to blow up the building your family is in?

[rory_20_uk]

It's been proven that the part of the brain responsible for this reaches maturity at around age 25. The same age car insurance rates go down.

That is finishes developing. That is not the same as increasing over a threshold that is viewed as acting at an adult level.

[HoreTore]

So you'd be all nice to a terrorist and not even touch him if he threatens to blow up the building your family is in?

Who cares about terrorists? Since when did they become a threat to me?

[Husar]

Who cares about terrorists? Since when did they become a threat to me?

Typical HoreTore "argument", if I run out of arguments, I'll just say the argument from the other side is irrelevant.
How about antibiotics? Did you know taking antibiotics is violence towards bacteria?
And not taking them means your body will kill even more itself, most likely.
Are you a vegetarian? Or is that violence not violence? Or do you make a compromise there?

[HoreTore]

Typical HoreTore "argument", if I run out of arguments, I'll just say the argument from the other side is irrelevant.
How about antibiotics? Did you know taking antibiotics is violence towards bacteria?
And not taking them means your body will kill even more itself, most likely.
Are you a vegetarian? Or is that violence not violence? Or do you make a compromise there?

Since when did I care about other species? I'm a farmers son, remember

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Who cares about terrorists? Since when did they become a threat to me?

Ok, man breaks into your house, goes for a knife to kill your mother.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Ok, man breaks into your house, goes for a knife to kill your mother.

You could set yourself on fire as a means of peaceful protest... then if you managed to run at him it might even scare him away...

[HoreTore]

Ok, man breaks into your house, goes for a knife to kill your mother.

That won't ever happen either.

You see, the best solution to any such situation, is to make sure they never happen. As my officers told me in the army, if we come under attack, then there's no point trying to defend ourselves, we might as well lie down and die, it's our own bloody fault for being dumb enough to come under fire.

[Reverend Joe]

That won't ever happen either.

You see, the best solution to any such situation, is to make sure they never happen. As my officers told me in the army, if we come under attack, then there's no point trying to defend ourselves, we might as well lie down and die, it's our own bloody fault for being dumb enough to come under fire.

wow.

[Rhyfelwyr]

That won't ever happen either.

You see, the best solution to any such situation, is to make sure they never happen. As my officers told me in the army, if we come under attack, then there's no point trying to defend ourselves, we might as well lie down and die, it's our own bloody fault for being dumb enough to come under fire.

How on earth can you know for sure that you're house won't get burgled? It happens all the time to people, no matter how careful they are, unless you live in a fortress a burglar could always find a way in.

Don't dodge the question... if someone is about to stab your mother, and you could stop them through violence, then what would you do? Tell your mother she should have been more careful and that it's her fault she's getting stabbed?

[Crazed Rabbit]

That won't ever happen either.

You see, the best solution to any such situation, is to make sure they never happen.

And, apparently, vehemently deny reality when they do.

And really, your army officers said that?

CR

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

That won't ever happen either.

You see, the best solution to any such situation, is to make sure they never happen. As my officers told me in the army, if we come under attack, then there's no point trying to defend ourselves, we might as well lie down and die, it's our own bloody fault for being dumb enough to come under fire.

You can't make sure it will never happen. So buck up and answer the question, or just admit you have chosen an indefensible position.

As to your officers, either they were incompetant, you are misrepresenting what they said or you failed to learn the lesson. If any officer were to say such a thing in the British army his meaning would be, "you are [blank] useless", at which point he would still expect his men to slaughter the enemy.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

You could set yourself on fire as a means of peaceful protest... then if you managed to run at him it might even scare him away...

Nah, I'd just put my hands together and he would be struck by lightening.

[Banquo's Ghost]

As my officers told me in the army, if we come under attack, then there's no point trying to defend ourselves, we might as well lie down and die, it's our own bloody fault for being dumb enough to come under fire.

I wish I had tried that one on my battery!

What did they issue you with guns for, do you think? Decoration?

[HoreTore]

How on earth can you know for sure that you're house won't get burgled? It happens all the time to people, no matter how careful they are, unless you live in a fortress a burglar could always find a way in.

Don't dodge the question... if someone is about to stab your mother, and you could stop them through violence, then what would you do? Tell your mother she should have been more careful and that it's her fault she's getting stabbed?

As there are some 30 murders a year in this country, on a population of 4,8 million, the odds of something like that happening are far, far less than me winning the lottery. And I ain't a millionaire yet.

But the question is flawed; the original statement wasn't about what someone would do, but whether or not such an action is just. And I still do not think it's a just action, I consider any use of violence as a failure.

I wish I had tried that one on my battery!

What did they issue you with guns for, do you think? Decoration?

Mostly yeah. Thing is, in my unit, we were three guys alone on a mountaintop. If we were attacked, it would be by the special forces. If they attacked, we were basically dead already. The instructions were clear; do not, under any circumstances, get attacked. Accomplish that by hiding well enough. If that failed, delete the data, then die. Resistance is useless, won't do a thing.

[Husar]

You see, the best solution to any such situation, is to make sure they never happen. As my officers told me in the army, if we come under attack, then there's no point trying to defend ourselves, we might as well lie down and die, it's our own bloody fault for being dumb enough to come under fire.

Going by that one story you told me about a certain exercise, I might have told you the same thing.

[HoreTore]

Going by that one story you told me about a certain exercise, I might have told you the same thing.

I have so many stories about army screwups I have no idea which one you're referring to

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

But the question is flawed; the original statement wasn't about what someone would do, but whether or not such an action is just. And I still do not think it's a just action, I consider any use of violence as a failure.

That is the point, theoretically I agree with you. I practice, I'm quite willing to kill anyone who comes against those I love and deal with the consequences later.

[HoreTore]

That is the point, theoretically I agree with you. I practice, I'm quite willing to kill anyone who comes against those I love and deal with the consequences later.

True enough. But is that an ideal situation, is that the situation we should strive for? I think the answer to that is quite obvious. If it comes to that, it should be considered a failure.