Twilight and Jonas Brothers: A rant

[rabcarl]

Topic: How have we regressed in our evolution as a species that we have been reduced to screaming and going crazy over such talentless trash while there are authors/musicians/what have you with REAL talent struggling to make a living while the sensationalized figureheads of stupidity rake in the dough?

Discuss.

[naut]

In regard to the popularity of Twilight/JB:

IDIOT, n. A member of a large and powerful tribe whose influence in human affairs has always been dominant and controlling. The Idiot's activity is not confined to any special field of thought or action, but "pervades and regulates the whole." He has the last word in everything; his decision is unappealable. He sets the fashions and opinion of taste, dictates the limitations of speech and circumscribes conduct with a dead-line.

----{+++++}----

On a separate note you know that complaining about them just gives them more coverage? Best to ignore that stuff.

[rabcarl]

Yeah I know it's just a catalyst for amusing conversation.

[naut]

Yeah I know it's just a catalyst for amusing conversation.

I don't feel we've regressed. Objectionable stuff always gets air-time. Most of the people who like both are 12 year old girls. And well, they're 12.

[AggonyDuck]

Topic: How have we regressed in our evolution as a species that we have been reduced to screaming and going crazy over such talentless trash while there are authors/musicians/what have you with REAL talent struggling to make a living while the sensationalized figureheads of stupidity rake in the dough?

Discuss.

Meh! That some people are raking in the dough by targetting teenage girls or younger isn't anything new. It's a massive market section, that's relatively easy to both manipulate and predict. As far as I think, we haven't really had any major degeneration of talent in the groups that are targetting the demographic group in question.

As to people with real talent not breaking through, sadly talent that isn't easy to market will remain outside the commercial meanstream.

[CountArach]

In regard to the popularity of Twilight/JB:

Another fan of The Devil's Dictionary

And yeah Twilight annoys me - but mostly because the idea of the vampire presented in it is so at odds with what my own notions of it are.

[miotas]

Well you have just improved their coverage because this is the first that I've heard of the Jonas Brothers(are you secretly their agent?) and the first I heard of the twilight novels was a few months ago when my little sister mentioned that she is reading them. Are they really that popular, and is it a bad thing that kids are getting into reading? Many criticised the Harry Potter books in the same way, and while I agree that they aren't as good as they were hyped up to be, I still quite enjoyed reading them and I think its good that so many kids have started reading because of them.

What I always say to those who complain about TV shows they don't like is; just treat it like big brother, ignore it and it will go away.
I think the same principle applies here.

[Beirut]

Topic: How have we regressed in our evolution as a species that we have been reduced to screaming and going crazy over such talentless trash while there are authors/musicians/what have you with REAL talent struggling to make a living while the sensationalized figureheads of stupidity rake in the dough?

Discuss.

Hey, my daughter loves Twillight. She's read the book and seen the movie twice each.

She hates the Jonas Brothers, though.

Most of us were the same at that age. We liked what we liked and that was that. But I never read books as thick as what my kids read when I was their age. I thank J.K. Rowling for their enthusiasm. She deserves every billion she makes for getting an entire planet's children reading.

[Viking]

The names ring a bell, but nothing else.

/meh

[Husar]

What is this Jonas Brothers?

[MerlinusCDXX]

I wouldn't worry too much about phenomena like these "Jonas Brothers". They will go the way of the "boy bands" of the late '80's and early '90's. When they get too old and start looking decidedly adult-like, their "careers" in the bubble-gum pop music industry will be over. One can only hope, for their sake, that their mentors, managers and what have you have given them the sound advice of translating their musical or acting ability into something that works in the adult world. We've seen this all before. What you are looking at here is basically some "good looking" children that have been exploited by the entertainment industry to gain ludicrous profits at the expense of the parents of "tweens". If this is anything like the boy bands I mentioned earlier, what you will see is kids who were told they could do "anything" being washed-up by the time they reach 25 years of age, unless they developed their skills to be able to compete in the adult job market.

[Hooahguy]

What is this Jonas Brothers?

demons out to corrupt the minds of girls and to make them not want to get laid with any guys that they actually know. rather, because these demons have corrupted the minds of these girls, the girls would much rather sleep with these demons than anyone else.

[Ramses II CP]

This isn't new, this is human nature. The pursuit of the fad is an unavoidable characteristic of social animals. See: The Beatles.

...although I do find it quite amusing how many MILFs I know moon over the Twilight books. Makes me wonder if I shouldn't have avoided getting a tan this summer.

[Lemur]

Having lost a bet, I am watching Twilight as I type this. I can see how this would be the coolest movie in the world if you were a twelve year old girl. For a grownup? Not so much. But I can't get too judgmental. I loved a lot of junk when I was a kid. Sherlock Holmes books don't hold up, neither do the Conan books, nor the Solomon Kane stories, nor Elric of Melniboné. There's a whole world of stories that you either encounter before puberty or you miss the ride.

That's normal.

Ye gods, though, this is a BAD movie.

[Samurai Waki]

When I was forced to the movie theater to watch Twilight with my wife, I think I fell in love with her all over again, when she gave a derisive snort thirty minutes in, and said "lets go get dinner."

[caravel]

What is this Jonas Brothers?

[Caius]

Those guys can't beat the 80's. Not worthy talking about them.

[Veho Nex]

I give my friends crap for being JB and TW crazy.




















Who the ever heard of a glittery Vampire? Not cool.... Kills vampires for me. THANKS A LOT TWILIGHT!

[miotas]

What I always say to those who complain about TV shows they don't like is; just treat it like big brother, ignore it and it will go away.
I think the same principle applies here.

I have just found out that apparently big brother is still going in other countries, here in Oz it was cancelled because it's a terrible show and no one was watching it. Sorry if I didn't make any sense.

[drone]

If you are annoyed with family members or friends that are really into the pop-pablum de jour, there is really only one way to deal with it. Get photographic evidence of their insanity, and shame them with it 10 years later.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Any movie that is hugely successful is a good movie, whether you like it or not. Same with bands.

-edit-
Since I'm detecting a bit of intellectual snobbery in this thread and it's a pet peeve of mine I'll post this comparison:

Let's get retarded--black eyed peas
vs.
Beethoven's 5th symphony

Now ask yourself, which is more intellectual? Which has more meaning? Your instinct may be to say the Beethoven but any objective look at the two songs shows that the "let's get retarded" is infinitely more intellectual. The 5th symphony is a visceral experience while the black eyed peas song has a clearly expressed message about life. Remember that the next time you hear someone dissing something popular as idiotic. Odds are they think highly of Beethoven's fifth and van gogh's pictures of flowers, neither of which are intellectual in the slightest. It's merely a matter of taste, and being snobby about it is as silly as claiming coke and pepsi are for the moronic masses and that smart people drink dr pepper.

[Motep]

Go Kojiro!

Anyways, I dont care for either one of them, though I see how people do. I cant really take this further, for my girlfriend is across the room and she likes twilight and if this gets into her vision it will be seen as something tantamount to heresy.

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
If this Twillight you're talking about the same as the miniseries recently aired on the local NBC clone, then it's total heresy. A vampire going around under noon sun with raybands?

Apparently it's a heavy bastardization of World of Darkness, on which Vampire Bloodlines was based. Having a vampire endure sunlight is the most unacceptable heresy, no blasphemy!

I did watch it though, thanks to the blonde chick.
.

[A Very Super Market]

Wasn't sunlight just an annoyance to the original Dracula?

[Lord Winter]

Any movie that is hugely successful is a good movie, whether you like it or not. Same with bands.

-edit-
Since I'm detecting a bit of intellectual snobbery in this thread and it's a pet peeve of mine I'll post this comparison:

Let's get retarded--black eyed peas
vs.
Beethoven's 5th symphony

Now ask yourself, which is more intellectual? Which has more meaning? Your instinct may be to say the Beethoven but any objective look at the two songs shows that the "let's get retarded" is infinitely more intellectual. The 5th symphony is a visceral experience while the black eyed peas song has a clearly expressed message about life. Remember that the next time you hear someone dissing something popular as idiotic. Odds are they think highly of Beethoven's fifth and van gogh's pictures of flowers, neither of which are intellectual in the slightest. It's merely a matter of taste, and being snobby about it is as silly as claiming coke and pepsi are for the moronic masses and that smart people drink dr pepper.

Yes and no. Classical music doesn't have a monopoly on music but I wouldn't call "Let's Get Retarded" deeper. A message does not have to expressed in lyrics, or even be a concrete thing. Saying that one piece of music is better because it has lyrics, going back to your soda metaphor, is like saying coke is better then pepsi just because coke has better content on it's label. People who say that the 5th symphony is deeper point to the greater depth of composition, direction of the music and emotion built in it. It is not any less deep because it doesn't hit the listener over the head with its message.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

.
If this Twillight you're talking about the same as the miniseries recently aired on the local NBC clone, then it's total heresy. A vampire going around under noon sun with raybands?

Apparently it's a heavy bastardization of World of Darkness, on which Vampire Bloodlines was based. Having a vampire endure sunlight is the most unacceptable heresy, no blasphemy!

I did watch it though, thanks to the blonde chick.
.

Blade had vampires in sunlight too. Sunscreen with a high spf, makes sense.

Yes and no. Classical music doesn't have a monopoly on music but I wouldn't call "Let's Get Retarded" deeper. A message does not have to expressed in lyrics, or even be a concrete thing. Saying that one piece of music is better because it has lyrics, going back to your soda metaphor, is like saying coke is better then pepsi just because coke has better content on it's label. People who say that the 5th symphony is deeper point to the greater depth of composition, direction of the music and emotion built in it. It is not any less deep because it doesn't hit the listener over the head with its message.

What you get out of the 5th symphony is something I would vaguely call "listening pleasure". Hard to pin down exactly. You get the same from "let's get retarded" (or maybe not, and maybe you don't like either of them). Could you express the message of the 5th symphony? I don't believe there is one. How about the message of this:



Of course, you might subscribe to the school of thought that describes a modern art "black square" painting as symbolizing the triumph of the old over the new, of eastern thinking over western thinking blah blah, but I think we can agree that that's baloney. The painting here is simply nice to look at. I don't care for messages in my music personally, just pointed that out to knock people off their intellectual high horse.

Many people just don't like popular music or movies--but the effort to divide all art into "high art" and "low art" is as silly as being elitist about what soda you drink. And of course, people are snobby about the beer they drink which isn't far off...

Of course the irony is that the people who are the biggest intellectual snobs are the ones who would benefit the most from "disconnecting from all intellect and letting the rhythm affect" them.

[Reverend Joe]

@Sasaki, I think you're oversimplifying the issue here. I think you are overlooking the fact that good art does not automatically bring fame.

Example: Scott H. Biram. Even on an eye-to-eye level with the Black Eyed Peas, he's much better: his lyrics are much better-written and his message is more universal. The reason he is not famous is because he doesn't fit into the zeitgeist. He doesn't do pop, he does honest-to-god country, and even in the Country music circuit that isn't very popular. Popular songs or movies are only good in the sense that they are geared to appeal to the sound or image that has the most appeal at the moment. That's the difference between what is "truly" good and what isn't: how long it can hold up, and how universal its appeal. I do agree with you that Beethoven is not the same thing as modern music, and that it is the product of some snobbery, becuase you have to learn what to appreciate before you can truly appreciate it, namely the extraordinary complexity involved in creating classical music. A better example of truly good music would be traditional folk music, which, although it has not gotten the historical attention of classical music, has proven its worth by its long and pervasive history, even if it does change gradually over time.

Another example: compare the Black Eyed Peas to the Beatles or Elvis Presley. I hate both of them with a passion, but you have to admit that their continued appeal after so many decades is a sign that they struck a certain chord. If the Black Eyed Peas last as long, then they can be judged good -- but I would be surprised if they did.

[Hooahguy]

im with reverend here.

[Lord Winter]

Blade had vampires in sunlight too. Sunscreen with a high spf, makes sense.



What you get out of the 5th symphony is something I would vaguely call "listening pleasure". Hard to pin down exactly. You get the same from "let's get retarded" (or maybe not, and maybe you don't like either of them). Could you express the message of the 5th symphony? I don't believe there is one. How about the message of this:



Of course, you might subscribe to the school of thought that describes a modern art "black square" painting as symbolizing the triumph of the old over the new, of eastern thinking over western thinking blah blah, but I think we can agree that that's baloney. The painting here is simply nice to look at. I don't care for messages in my music personally, just pointed that out to knock people off their intellectual high horse.

Many people just don't like popular music or movies--but the effort to divide all art into "high art" and "low art" is as silly as being elitist about what soda you drink. And of course, people are snobby about the beer they drink which isn't far off...

Of course the irony is that the people who are the biggest intellectual snobs are the ones who would benefit the most from "disconnecting from all intellect and letting the rhythm affect" them.

The point is that art does not need a concrete message. Personally I think of good artful music as an expression of some part of the human spirit. The message of music is much harder to describe then other forms of art because of this. It is impossible to boil down emotion to simple words. Isn't that why we turn to music to the first place. Now I agree, you can enjoy music without it being a profound work of art but music which does reach this ideal is incomparable to music which doesn't even attempt it.

I don't think you can discount classical music as the result of generations of pretentious snobs. Sure they're are many purist who will tell you how it is the only valid form of music. I think we can agree that they're narrow minded snobs. But, you have to at least respect something which has lasted 100's of years. It doesn't mean you have to like it or that it's better then modern music, but give classical it's due.


I agree with you on Folk Reverend Joe. Great genre of music.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

@Sasaki, I think you're oversimplifying the issue here. I think you are overlooking the fact that good art does not automatically bring fame.

Example: Scott H. Biram. Even on an eye-to-eye level with the Black Eyed Peas, he's much better: his lyrics are much better-written and his message is more universal. The reason he is not famous is because he doesn't fit into the zeitgeist. He doesn't do pop, he does honest-to-god country, and even in the Country music circuit that isn't very popular.

Can't say I like that song though. Reason he's not famous is because most people don't like his music I'd have to say.

Popular songs or movies are only good in the sense that they are geared to appeal to the sound or image that has the most appeal at the moment. That's the difference between what is "truly" good and what isn't: how long it can hold up, and how universal its appeal.

This isn't the perspective I take on music though. I take a purely personal interest in it. If you like a song I'm not going to try and argue with you about whether it's a good song--that would be completely off the point. Like if you said you like bread and butter pickles I tried to argue that they were ok but that dill pickles were "truly" good.

Another example: compare the Black Eyed Peas to the Beatles or Elvis Presley. I hate both of them with a passion, but you have to admit that their continued appeal after so many decades is a sign that they struck a certain chord. If the Black Eyed Peas last as long, then they can be judged good -- but I would be surprised if they did.

Well, the beatles and elvis captured the feel of their time, but they probably get .1% of the playtime they used to because our time is different. I think this is true for all music. What percentage of classical music written do we listen to today? Art seldom lasts, that is the way it goes. It's kind of the beauty of it really. I would disagree with you entirely, if you are going to judge a song judge it by how well it strikes a chord with their own decade. That's the only real measuring stick.