Are wiccans a bunch of dillusionnal people?

[Meneldil]

Well, to be honest, till now, we've only barely talked about that. She once mentionned she had read several books about it, to what I answered 'It looks like a lot of mumbo-jumbo for people pretending to be cool', which I still think it is (something like the discovery of Buddhism in the western world).

But yesterday, she told me she was eager to work in the UK and Ireland, because not only she would be nearer France, but she could find the true roots of this millennia old religion, which made me go 'wth?'. I knew she was somewhat into this, but I would never have imagined she bought the full mythological crap, with the 'Wicca was the first religion on earth' part, and the 'the Church tried to destroy wicca during the witch hunts' one.

So yeah, I'll try arguing for a while. If it doesn't work, I don't know what I'll do. Rational minds seem to face a huge wall when arguing with people who simply reject rational-thinking. That's is kind of sad but at least I will have tried.

I expected someone here would know a bit about Wicca (I think a former moderator was dating or marrying a Wiccan, or maybe it was on another forum), but meh.

Edit: As a lot of people have said, I don't consider Wicca to be worse than any other religion. They seem pretty harmless and the whole thing sound like a benevolent system of belief. Other religions are just as stupid/nut/made up/dillusionnal, and as a fact, I despise any single religious system (though I don't despise all the people who believe in them).
Thing is, in that case, said girl also consider other religions to be a bunch of fairy tales, but when it comes to Wicca, 'it's all proven, white magic, millennia old, secret alphabet and what not, it's all written down, and the fact we can't find any archeological proof doesn't mean it doesn't not exist' (in a typical 'you can't prove God doesn't exist' fashion). Quite terrible.

What is even more terrible is the people who write these books and think they're historians and what not, while Gardner's writing and journal, in which he clearly states he invented Wicca out of his bottom and a few old-women tricks, are known and available.

Wakizashi, that's all nice and dandy, but most of the people who pretend to be wiccans are these young people (not necessarily teenage girls, but generally young) who learnt Wicca by themselves according to one of the various 'Wicca for dummies' or 'Wicca 101' books available anywhere on teh internet. The people who actually do the coven thingy (which is also pretty laughable) are a tiny minority.

[Husar]

Please don't. Forget the book and everything you have read. Try to figure out what she's saying to you and others when she speaks of this wicca thingy. Not the words, the emotional message.

I know this sounds all touchy-feely like, but it has helped me understand people more than once when they acted as if they were off their rocker.

Wise words, and from Adrian even.

[Hax]

Don't judge her because she's a Wiccan; judge her because she's a person.

So what does it changes if she has another belief than most people? Have you noticed anything different about the way she acts? If not, what's the problem?

If yes, can you cope with it? Is she of enough worth to you to come through this. In a year perhaps, or less, she might look back and state how silly her beliefs were. Or she might not.

[KukriKhan]

Is there human sacrifice or pain involved? Will her sect go to war with another sect? Will she/has she tried to convert you? Does she have to give up all her money to the sect?

If no to all the above (and I bet "no" it is), then I don't see a problem. Explore her beliefs/understandings with her. As whacky as anybody's belief seem at the outset, they all have merit of some kind, or satisfy some need in the believer - as the fellas above said. Find out what that need is, and help her satisfy it.

Btw, just last year "Wicca" was recognized as an authorized entry on US Army Personnel Records and Dog Tags. I don't know if Wiccan Chaplains have been found though, or what symbol they wear on their uniform collar.

[Samurai Waki]

Btw, just last year "Wicca" was recognized as an authorized entry on US Army Personnel Records and Dog Tags. I don't know if Wiccan Chaplains have been found though, or what symbol they wear on their uniform collar.

Hmmm. If there are any Wiccan Chaplains I'd bet they'd be few and far between, since as a rule of thumb, they tend to be more pacifist than Buddhists. As far as the symbol goes, I know it's a Pentacle, since it seems to be pretty uniform to put the Pentacle on Wiccan Headstones.

[Beskar]

What makes Wicca any different than other religions?

Exactly, even though Christianity stole from the Pagans, Romans, Greeks, etc.

When I was reading this thread, I couldn't help replacing "Wiccans" with "Christians" and "Ireland" with "Israel".

'the Church tried to destroy wicca during the witch hunts' one.

That's true? Even the church killed other christians too, who believe something slightly different.

[Whacker]

Wicca is as made up as any other religion. And like any other religion it starts of as being popular and attractive to certain demographics.

It's also as nutty and flaky as any other religion - but a bit more tolerant and nice.

+1

Brother Wakizashi, I am an equal opportunity bigot when it comes to religion, I take the same very dim view of every single one. How organized one is or isn't means nothing to me about it's legitimacy. Look and how decentralized Islam is and how many flavors there are, one could argue it's not terribly "organized", in that sense. Compare that with Scientology, which is strictly regulated internally and organized... does that make it any more or less legit? Hint:

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I guess people look down on wiccans more than christians because most christians were raised christian, and most wiccans had a reason for adopting it. And because the lack of history behind it and the coven thing makes it sound silly, like having a vampire religion or something.

[Whacker]

You're going to get snotty, elitist people with any religion. In my experience and opinion christians are by far the worst though. Hell, one only need look here in the backroom for prime examples of it.

[Samurai Waki]

+1

Brother Wakizashi, I am an equal opportunity bigot when it comes to religion, I take the same very dim view of every single one. How organized one is or isn't means nothing to me about it's legitimacy. Look and how decentralized Islam is and how many flavors there are, one could argue it's not terribly "organized", in that sense. Compare that with Scientology, which is strictly regulated internally and organized... does that make it any more or less legit? Hint:

I don't disagree with you, I just dislike the use of personal observation being used as fact. Must be a pet peeve that one picks up when working with Criminal Procedure.
This thread is actually quite funny in this sense.

[Mooks]

I guess people look down on wiccans more than christians because most christians were raised christian, and most wiccans had a reason for adopting it. And because the lack of history behind it and the coven thing makes it sound silly, like having a vampire religion or something.

Or maybe its because people hear about the three main religions much more then Wicca? I hear crazy stuff like "Drink the blood of Christ, and accept him into your life and you will be saved from eternal damnation" and it doesnt phase me because iv heard it repeated all throughout my life.

[Whacker]

@ Wakizashi

This thread is kinda funny, but where did I say my views were factual and not opinions?

[rvg]

At least they aren't Scientologists.

[Samurai Waki]

@ Wakizashi

This thread is kinda funny, but where did I say my views were factual and not opinions?

Wicca is a made-up 'religion' of which 90% of it's adherents are middle and high school aged kids, mostly girls, who are rebelling against their parents and christian upbringings. The other 10% are people who've made it past high school and still for some reason believe in it. It's a very 'fashionable' 'religion' for younger kids in that age bracket.

[Whacker]

Wicca is a made-up 'religion' of which 90% of it's adherents are middle and high school aged kids, mostly girls, who are rebelling against their parents and christian upbringings. The other 10% are people who've made it past high school and still for some reason believe in it. It's a very 'fashionable' 'religion' for younger kids in that age bracket.

You left out my prefix: "My politically incorrect views:"

Fine, I'll concede I should have worded that intro a bit better. I thought it was pretty much understood as a given that "my views" == "my opinions", and that "politically incorrect" all but indicates that what I'm saying is opinion. Facts aren't "politically incorrect", they just are. I also never stated that was I mentioned was fact, either.

[Kadagar_AV]

I'll go with the touchy-feely option...

Find out what about the religion contributes to her life.

MY gf is christian, and I am very agnostic. We have been able to set that aside though :)

We just have the church-wedding issue left...

Wicca is not worse than any other religion... And some of the followers I met were quite cool :)

Good luck

[Meneldil]

Listen people, it's not about the beliefs per se. On that departement, wiccans seem not nearly as bad as any christian or muslim nutjob.

I'm more worried by the whole 'It's true, it's written in this book' part. I mean, there are even some wiccans who openly say the wiccan mythology is a bunch of fairy tales (ie. Wicca isn't the first religion to have ever been followed by mankin). But she does. And she keeps on pointing me to book written by dillusionnal people who pretend to be historians, but whose arguments have been proved wrong repeatedly.
And I'm here, trying to not be too much of an arrogant prick about her beliefs (I trully think anyone is entitled to worship anything as long as it doesn't trouble the order), and unable to wake up her critical thinking. That's kind of annoying.

The only reason I opened this topic was because I expected someone would know a bit more about Wicca, and point me to books that definitely prove that most of its supposed history has been made up recently.

[Kadagar_AV]

Mate, as stated, logic fails against idiots and religious people...

Your girlfriend unfortunately seems to fall under at least one of the categories. Now, I only base that from how you have depictured her, so I might very well be wrong.

I'm more worried by the whole 'It's true, it's written in this book' part.

What is the difference between that book, and say, the bible?

Christians use the same argument.

[Samurai Waki]

You left out my prefix: "My politically incorrect views:"

Fine, I'll concede I should have worded that intro a bit better. I thought it was pretty much understood as a given that "my views" == "my opinions", and that "politically incorrect" all but indicates that what I'm saying is opinion. Facts aren't "politically incorrect", they just are. I also never stated that was I mentioned was fact, either.

Point Taken.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Gentlemen,

We are getting very close to using "nutjobs", "idiots" and similar insults as synonyms for religious people as a whole.

However one feels about their faith, most people of a religious persuasion are decent chaps who don't deserve the aggressive tone.

Please remember that whilst we may disagree in this forum, we try always to respect.

Thank you kindly.

[miotas]

I'm not saying that any religion is right or wrong but I made a few alterations to your post and I think that you should apply how you feel about the following to this current situation:

I'm more worried by the whole 'It's true, it's written in this book' part. I mean, there are even some christians who openly say the christian mythology is a bunch of fairy tales (ie. The earth wasn't made in 7 days). But she does. And she keeps on pointing me to book written by dillusionnal people who pretend to be historians, but whose arguments have been proved wrong repeatedly.
And I'm here, trying to not be too much of an arrogant prick about her beliefs (I trully think anyone is entitled to worship anything as long as it doesn't trouble the order), and unable to wake up her critical thinking. That's kind of annoying.

[Kadagar_AV]

Gentlemen,

We are getting very close to using "nutjobs", "idiots" and similar insults as synonyms for religious people as a whole.

However one feels about their faith, most people of a religious persuasion are decent chaps who don't deserve the aggressive tone.

Please remember that whilst we may disagree in this forum, we try always to respect.

Thank you kindly.

Your point being that nutjobs and idiots should not be respected?

I respect any human being, and even every living organism...

[Whacker]

"nutjobs", "idiots"

Oh come on. What fun is it if we can't talk frankly about Org moderators?

[Banquo's Ghost]

Oh come on. What fun is it if we can't talk frankly about Org moderators?

Moderators are not a protected species. Open season is from January 3rd to December 22nd. You don't even need a licence.

However, tradition dictates that real sportsmen only use PMs - since in the open, we are really dangerous when wounded.

[Major Robert Dump]

It's best for you to compromise. Tell her you will do a wiccan worship session with her, set a time and place, gater some leaves, dirt and twigs and put them all in a bag. When the worship session begins, dump the bag over her head, and it may very well send her into orgasms.

[Papewaio]

Oh come on. What fun is it if we can't talk frankly about Org moderators?

"That ain't a knife, this is a knife"
"Don't bring a knife to a gunfight"
"Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?"
"Dave, I can't let you do that Dave"
"I don't know how World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be with sticks"
"Tosa"