javelins too weak?

[WinsingtonIII]

NO! Not in RTW, in Vanilla they die like flies against peltastai.

I guess it's been too long since I've played vanilla, I thought they were pretty resistant to javelins in vanilla as well. Regardless, what I meant was that in EB phalanxes have way too much of a frontal defensive bonus against missiles, and that it is unfortunate that the RTW engine cannot represent one of the major effects of javelins, that is, to unshield some of the enemy.

[seienchin]

I guess it's been too long since I've played vanilla, I thought they were pretty resistant to javelins in vanilla as well. Regardless, what I meant was that in EB phalanxes have way too much of a frontal defensive bonus against missiles, and that it is unfortunate that the RTW engine cannot represent one of the major effects of javelins, that is, to unshield some of the enemy.

No, I used to knock out a whole phalanx by two javelinne volleys from two peltastai. One from the front, one from the side. they just died like flies and routed. I off course never use that tactic in EB

[vartan]

I guess it's been too long since I've played vanilla, I thought they were pretty resistant to javelins in vanilla as well. Regardless, what I meant was that in EB phalanxes have way too much of a frontal defensive bonus against missiles, and that it is unfortunate that the RTW engine cannot represent one of the major effects of javelins, that is, to unshield some of the enemy.

Only reason units 'die like flies' in "Vanilla" is because of the stats, if I'm not mistaken. They are in such a state that a volley of javs kills half a unit (minor exaggeration). In EB, none of the stats look like the ones in "Vanilla." Just take a look at the charge values for cavalry! VERY DIFFERENT!

[satalexton]

I think the general phenomon in EB is that if something is not 'working' or 'too weak', there's 90% of the time the user ain using it right.

Even with akonkistai, one can slaughter a unit of done correctly. Mind, these dude are merely your average urban poor given a knife, some pointy sticks and a shoddy shield.

If you want real javalin throwers, the iberians and getai the ones you should be looking for.

[WinsingtonIII]

I think the general phenomon in EB is that if something is not 'working' or 'too weak', there's 90% of the time the user ain using it right.

Even with akonkistai, one can slaughter a unit of done correctly. Mind, these dude are merely your average urban poor given a knife, some pointy sticks and a shoddy shield.

If you want real javalin throwers, the iberians and getai the ones you should be looking for.

I don't think that this is a phenomenon of something not working correctly, or being too weak, though. I think that for the most part, javelins are great, they do plenty of damage to most units, if used correctly. The exception to this is against phalanx units. A massed volley of javelins against units in phalanx mode is going to kill maybe two or three men out of a unit with 242 men in it. Let's be honest, that's a little ridiculous. The spears could deflect some missiles, but it's not like phalanxes had forcefields around them that deflected 95% of missiles away. As you say, Komotai are great units, they are one of my favorite low level units in the game, but against units in phalanx mode, their javelins seem to just bounce off. I'm not arguing that they should be devastating phalanx units, but two or three casualties from 200 javelins is putting too much faith in the phalanxes abilities.

Now, I'm personally fine with leaving this as it is, because there are still plenty of ways to destroy phalanx units, but I don't think it's correct to blame the user in this situation.

EDIT: These volleys don't even have to hit the phalanx from the front. Even if you flank, throwing javelins at a unit in phalanx mode will garner very few kills.

[Vilkku92]

Well, phalangites wore linen cuirasses, bronze helmets and greaves, and carried shields. They were packed in tight ranks, so that they were protected not only by their personal equipment but also by the shields of the men next to them, the bodies of their comrades and that forrest of pikes. As javelin isn't the most accurate weapon you can find, it would be hard to hit those vulnerable parts from a sensible distance, so we shouldn't be suprised if Akontistai can't kill too many of them from the front.

[antisocialmunky]

I wouldn't be surprised if there was a top armor bonus from phalanx as straight shooting weapons like slingers can still do a little bit of damage while all arcing weapons are ridiculously weakened.

If that's not the case then its not a shield bonus but an armor bonus. If IIRC AP is not effective against shield. It only halves armor values.

Ludens, correct me please.

[Tollheit]

If either of your theories were true phalanx/no phalanx should not make much of a difference for slingers, so I repeated my little test with defence: 0,0,5 phalangitai and a unit of 41 Iaosatae

results:
with phalanx: Iaosatae shoot 9/15/15/10 phalangitai
without phalanx: Iaosatae shoot 32/31/31/27 phalangitai

At least as much of a difference. Which is consistent with increased shield values, since Iaosatae have more ammo but less attack, and their ap ability doesn't make a difference against shields.

[WinsingtonIII]

Well, phalangites wore linen cuirasses, bronze helmets and greaves, and carried shields. They were packed in tight ranks, so that they were protected not only by their personal equipment but also by the shields of the men next to them, the bodies of their comrades and that forrest of pikes. As javelin isn't the most accurate weapon you can find, it would be hard to hit those vulnerable parts from a sensible distance, so we shouldn't be suprised if Akontistai can't kill too many of them from the front.

I understand that these factors would combine to make the phalanx a resistant formation to missile fire, but it should not be nigh-invincible to missiles. Also, remember that if a javelin hit a shield, it would likely render it useless, forcing the user to discard it. As for accuracy, a tightly packed mass of men makes a pretty easy target, although the chance that they would hit a vulnerable area was unlikely. Even so, I think the ratio should be better than 2 kills for every 100 javelins thrown. Does that not seem just a little bit ridiculous to you? Remember that kills in EB also represent those who are injured too badly to continue fighting but may recover after the battle. So, essentially, we are getting 2 casualties for every 100 javelins thrown. Whether you find that believable or not is up to you.

Anyways, as I said before, I don't really care whether this gets changed, as there are plenty of better ways to kill phalanxes, but I think it overestimates the resilience of the phalanx formation to missiles. Let's be honest, this was not the equivalent of the testudo formation.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

I understand that these factors would combine to make the phalanx a resistant formation to missile fire, but it should not be nigh-invincible to missiles. Also, remember that if a javelin hit a shield, it would likely render it useless, forcing the user to discard it. As for accuracy, a tightly packed mass of men makes a pretty easy target, although the chance that they would hit a vulnerable area was unlikely. Even so, I think the ratio should be better than 2 kills for every 100 javelins thrown. Does that not seem just a little bit ridiculous to you? Remember that kills in EB also represent those who are injured too badly to continue fighting but may recover after the battle. So, essentially, we are getting 2 casualties for every 100 javelins thrown. Whether you find that believable or not is up to you.

Anyways, as I said before, I don't really care whether this gets changed, as there are plenty of better ways to kill phalanxes, but I think it overestimates the resilience of the phalanx formation to missiles. Let's be honest, this was not the equivalent of the testudo formation.

I agree. Phalangites have only small shields, not like the huge shields of traditional hoplites. Although their long sarissas might provide some extra protection, overall, the anti-missile defence ability of phalangites should be no better than that of hoplites with equally good body armour. Even in phalanx formation.

[Ludens]

IMy conclusion: it seems to be plausible that phalanx mode does increase the effective shield value.

That is suggestive. Maybe I need to run some tests as well.