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If I werent playing games Id be killing small animals at a higher rate than I am now - SFTS
Si je n'étais pas jouer à des jeux que je serais mort de petits animaux à un taux plus élevé que je suis maintenant - Louis VI The Fat
"Why do you hate the extremely limited Spartan version of freedom?" - Lemur
Thanks for the chuckle.
Seriously though, the only points in history where Piracy has been marginalized are those eras where pirates were considered a common threat and EVERYONE dealt with them harshly. In those by-gone and less enlightened times that meant that most of them met Jack Ketch -- and it was a certainty for any pirate leader.
Now the pirates can a) make a lot of money if the companies make the smart choice and pay rather than delay delivery of a valuable cargo, or b) get caught by naval forces and be 1) sent home to try again, or 2) incarcerated in a prison that provides a better standard of living than you had before you were a pirate and -- because of asylum laws and bureacracy -- may give you permanent residency as a free person in a country with a great standard of living. Into the bargain, they might even pay you for breathing as they do some of their own citizens.
All of us .orgers should consider pooling funds to buy some zodiacs and kalishnikovs and base ourselves in Madagascar somewhere. We're clearly NOT the smart ones.
"The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken
"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." *Jim Elliot*
The .Org's MTW Reference Guide Wiki - now taking comments, corrections, suggestions, and submissions
If I werent playing games Id be killing small animals at a higher rate than I am now - SFTS
Si je n'étais pas jouer à des jeux que je serais mort de petits animaux à un taux plus élevé que je suis maintenant - Louis VI The Fat
"Why do you hate the extremely limited Spartan version of freedom?" - Lemur
I think we should pay the somalis to patrol thier own waters, anyone discovered using thier waters as dumping ground should be fined millions (whoever thier working for) to help pay for this service. We could also let them make hostages out of these people and give them the oppurtunity to ransom them back...
I figure we need to give the Somali's some kind of alternative income.....
As a final note it is obviously hysterical that some desperate poverty stricken men who turned to piracy as a desperate last hope are now stranded in the middle of the ocean without navigaytion equipment, I can only hope thier joined by a man attempting to steal bread for his starving family and some other assorted evil do'ers...
In remembrance of our great Admin Tosa Inu, A tireless worker with the patience of a saint. As long as I live I will not forget you. Thank you for everything!
And I had no idea Liberace was a Mexican drug lord...
By all means feel free to send them along a monthly check. I rather prefer Louis's Kenyan solution, which I believe has been tried with no luck so far. Failing that, the Russian Nantucket Sleigh Ride option will have to do.
"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." *Jim Elliot*
In the town where I was born
There lived a man who was a thief
He told me of his life
Stealing bread and shagging sheep
So they put him in the nick
And a magistrate he went to see
Then they sent him on a ship
To the convict colony
You all live in a convict colony, convict colony, convict colony
You all live in a convict colony, convict colony, convict colony
Wait, I remembered wrong. The Swiss eventually narrowly voted against sending their mighty navy. It's Norway that's involved with the EU.
Are you sure Serbia shouldn't follow Norway's lead? It will be an excellent opportunity for Serbia to show Europe it is a worthy future member!
Or else let me speak to somebody in your navy. I bet I can convince him. No military wants to keep its planes on ground and its ships ashore.
We want your money money money!!!
Enough jokes about the swiss navy...
Of course there is Swiss Navy!!
They have pretty wierd recruitment posters though.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
About the PIRATES, why is it so hard to make an international law against this?
Last edited by Kadagar_AV; 05-14-2010 at 01:32.
The Swiss actually do have a navy. It is a couple of tugboats on Lake Geneva.
Days since the Apocalypse began
"We are living in space-age times but there's too many of us thinking with stone-age minds" | How to spot a Humanist
"Men of Quality do not fear Equality." | "Belief doesn't change facts. Facts, if you are reasonable, should change your beliefs."
If I'm not mistaken they left them but took away all their food and other essentials, that's not just theft (stealing from a criminal wasn't legal last I heard), it's also rather equal to a death sentence, except not done by a judge but decided upon by some russian sailors. And besides, I wasn't just commenting on this case but also on the people saying pirates should always be shot.
http://www.armybase.us/2009/11/germa...ates-to-kenya/
I thought you were pro-life?
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"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
austria has a navy as well according to my daddy's big old book of navies.
this is absolutely hilarious now tha ti think of it.
Russian Captain: We let you go
Somalia: (stupid european im just going to buy another ak)
Russian Captain: With no navagation gear and all of you on a dinghy.
Somalian: Awwwwwww ****
all in a russian accent of course.
that being said if we really wanna get rid of these problems we need to get international patrols and we need to arm civilian ships.
not like the somalian navy can defend the red sea....... with all two of their jetskis
i tohught you were pro-choice. you should be ecstatic they got an option, get in the dinghy or face mother russias wrath.I thought you were pro-life?
Last edited by Centurion1; 05-14-2010 at 02:15.
I see what you did there.
I must disagree though: Balkan politicians are very skilled. They are very skilled at being corrupt and sucking dry the populace. They get away with it, because they operate in a client society, and in an honour society. So insofar as people aren't directly dependent on corruption, the corrupt politicians can rely on pride in these honour societies. Balkanites will bite their tongue to outsiders, keep the silence, and thereby protect people or behaviour they in their hearts hate with a vengeance. The pride of the family, of the locality, or of the nation comes first, before the truth or individual frustration.
[/amateur national psychology, always a recipe for popularity around here]
There is no Somalian navy, because there is no Somalian state. There are only armed civilian ships.that being said if we really wanna get rid of these problems we need to get international patrols and we need to arm civilian ships.
not like the somalian navy can defend the red sea.......
So the solution is not more armed civilian ships and justice done by Russian mobsters, but more state controlled intervention to spread some semblance of the rule of law.
Last edited by Louis VI the Fat; 05-14-2010 at 04:06.
I know there's no somalian navy hence the. .........
When you can stabilize that region without violence and total overhaul of their entire society I will lick your French boots
He's FRENCH. He does not wear boots (unless he picked up the habit from Strike). Frenchmen love their women in boots (seulement, bien sur) but prefer something a bit more stylish themselves.
If you're very nice to him following his success, he'll let you buy him a bottle of '61 Pontet Canet. Do NOT expect him to share unless you've educated your palate a bit.
"The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken
If a criminal breaks into your home, armed, with the ability to do violence upon you or your loved ones, most would agree that if you were to kill said criminal in self defense, than it is just. Is this not a summary execution without the benefit of a trial? You might, if given the chance, be able to escape your house, avoiding the violence if the circumstances were right-a very speculative notion I agree, but possible. At sea, there is no where to run from a violent attack. One must defend the ship because it is your only real chance to survive. Pirates are a special kind of criminal; to threaten the lives of people aboard a vessel at sea creates a special kind of victim. There is no law at sea except that which the master of the vessel, or captain if we may, is responsible for. Under certain circumstances, he may take life for crimes, such as mutiny, which threaten the safety and lives of those he is responsible for. Most courts would back such a decision if made for such a reason.
I am not advocating the summary execution of anyone, but if all of the countries involved don't agree to have a way of trying pirates in an international agreement, then pirates will only be encouraged to continue their plundering. Maybe we need to send them all to a prison on some remote island guarded by an international force made up from all the players involved.
Last edited by rotorgun; 05-14-2010 at 05:39.
Rotorgun![]()
Onasander...the general must neither be so undecided that he entirely distrusts himself, nor so obstinate as not to think that anyone can have a better idea...for such a man...is bound to make many costly mistakes
Editing my posts due to poor typing and grammer is a way of life.
Days since the Apocalypse began
"We are living in space-age times but there's too many of us thinking with stone-age minds" | How to spot a Humanist
"Men of Quality do not fear Equality." | "Belief doesn't change facts. Facts, if you are reasonable, should change your beliefs."
Yep, but you would need to send them money, ships, trainers, officers and a huge administration to keep an eye on all that. Actually why do I care, I live in a land-locked country.
Well for one I assume they already have some ships over there, unless they swim to thier targets (future olympians maybe) give them some camera's and we could pay them* for each vessel dumping they catch.
Let them then take the crew hostage and start negoations with either the nation or thier individual familys for a ransom for return.
*with fines we collect from whatever companies and individuals are responsible
It will give them a profitable alternative to piracy whilst being for the good of Somalia in general...
Its quite hard to think of a way to do this fairly but i think its sickening that people we in the west have helped put into a place* where they resort to piracy are now fair targets for all kinds of nasty deaths
*its not a huge portion of the blame we share but we certainly helped them to get where they are going
I guess we are just lucky in the west that we can sit at our computers and judge men in extreme situations so harshly whilst sipping on our tea...
Last edited by LittleGrizzly; 05-14-2010 at 07:31.
In remembrance of our great Admin Tosa Inu, A tireless worker with the patience of a saint. As long as I live I will not forget you. Thank you for everything!
Being a disenfranchised fisherman is no excuse for piracy. This is not the only region in the world with problems and certainly not the only with prolific piracy, these pirates shouldn't get harsher or kinder justice than pirates in other areas. Being put in a boat is certainly harsher then the possibility of asylum if say the Dutch Navy captured then but then bear in mind that China executes the pirates it captures, though these are murderous pirates as well.
While I'd prefer that most European ships as well as the US Navy continue operations as they have in which pirates are brought to court I still believe that there need to be a few nations such as Russia that can deal out the tough love. While these pirates are in all likelihood dead it's not like they were summarily executed on the side of the ship. Seeing as they often operate with "motherships" there is a possibility of rescue if their financiers/support ships care enough.
Your method of essentially paying them off isn't going to solve the problem and in fact is similar to what used to happen constantly in regards to the Barbary Coast Pirates. Not to mention that your solution is basically agreeing to allow sailors to be kidnapped, most of these acts of piracy happen well outside Somalia's waters so how would you fine a company for having its ships operate in international waters.
Paying for a Somali Coast Guard would be a good step and will help reduce illegal dumping and fishing but it will not stop piracy.
The solution is of course not simple or cheap but of course lies in somehow fixing Somalia, though I still that the opportunity to do so was missed back when Pres. Clinton pulled out Somalia which essentially abandoned the hope for stability in this country.
Last edited by spmetla; 05-14-2010 at 08:11.
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"Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?"
-Abraham Lincoln
Four stage strategy from Yes, Minister:
Stage one we say nothing is going to happen.
Stage two, we say something may be about to happen, but we should do nothing about it.
Stage three, we say that maybe we should do something about it, but there's nothing we can do.
Stage four, we say maybe there was something we could have done, but it's too late now.
There's hardly ever a good enough reason for misdeeds individuals and nations do, I just feel its unfair that the bigger and more powerful can screw others over and get away with it but a desperate somalian pirate must have all kinds of nasty inflicted on him... what I am mainly asking is we offer the somalians an alternative, if we get thier country somewhat stable and provide alternative sources of employment then fine these people deserve whats coming to them but as it is they have been backed into a corner and then are beaten for lashing out... what else was expected ?
With the capture and ransom I was just referring to the dumping of toxic waste (I assume the waste is actually dropped inside somalian waters, or what could be considered thiers if they had a goverment strong enough to declare it so)
Im not saying actually pay the pirates, for one im proposing a coast gaurd (which could in future help with piracy but to start with probably wouldn't work) secondly we could make the effort to clean up thier waters and repopulate the fish along thier coast line, wherever possible hire somalians to help with this, once done they can fish again.
Basically what I am proposing is rather than deal with the consequences of Somalia and cheer inhumane treatment of desperate people, why don't we goto the source of the problem, offer the locals alternatives to piracy. Hell we could even build jails and pay gaurds to house whatever pirates we catch. It may start off as a bunch of industrys supported by the west* but via the trickle down effect the economy would somewhat kick into gear and there would be decent alternatives to piracy
*I assume our anti piracy missions cost money anyway, combine this with the fact we helped them get where they are currently
All of this could be combined with big efforts to fight the pirates and make it not worth thier while (no asylum ect.)
Last edited by LittleGrizzly; 05-14-2010 at 08:29.
In remembrance of our great Admin Tosa Inu, A tireless worker with the patience of a saint. As long as I live I will not forget you. Thank you for everything!
Of course it's unfair, life is unfair, everyone has to deal with that fact, they get no extra sympathy from me just because chance put them there and me here. Somalian pirates live by that same rule, they prey on weaker less powerful ships to their own profit, some of those ships come from countries that will deliver harsh justice others kind justice, that's just chance and who they choose to pick on. From now on that's less likely to be a Russian ship they pick on.
Fining ships illegally dumping wouldn't really be a revenue source for the Somali government, unless of course as you suggested other governments pay all the overhead for operating a Coast Guard. Of course if they use this coast guard to board vessels illegally dumping and then ransom back the crew and ship instead of jailing the violators like they should then we'd be funding state funded piracy.
Investing in Somalia is as you undoubtedly know a catch-22. The security situation is too bad to invest but they need investment to improve the security. That's why I still begrudge President Clinton's abandoning Somalia because US Soldiers providing security by having to shoot aggressors that happen to be black is bad politics. Bear in mind not all Somalis get by on piracy, there must be some way the rest of that country is getting by. Those that resort to piracy do so right now because the potential profit seems to be better than than consequences of being caught, what Russia just did is up the consequence of piracy a little. Look at the link I posted of the ICC piracy map for past years, one pirate crew left adrift and a few others killed when resisting boarding by anti-piracy forces are but a drop in the bucket of successful pirate attacks which is why they will continue. Russia's actions only make it less likely that Russian flagged ships will targeted, or at least as high profile ones such as oil tankers.
Anti-piracy operations do cost money but that's primarily for the operation and support of ships of pre-existing navies. Building a new coast guard/navy for somalia and then funding it would be incredibly expensive not to mention there's little guarantee that those Somali coast guard/naval ships would actually do the unpopular task of policing their own countrymen.
As for piracy being a good form of income, who do you think gets that income? Do you imagine that the profits from piracy are distributed in an egalitarian manner as if these pirates are modern Robin Hoods? The profits are likely to be going to just another local warlord so that he can more successfully fight the next warlord over and drive in a newer Mercedes and own the best looking Italian sunglasses.
Last edited by spmetla; 05-14-2010 at 09:49.
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"Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?"
-Abraham Lincoln
Four stage strategy from Yes, Minister:
Stage one we say nothing is going to happen.
Stage two, we say something may be about to happen, but we should do nothing about it.
Stage three, we say that maybe we should do something about it, but there's nothing we can do.
Stage four, we say maybe there was something we could have done, but it's too late now.
There are already international patrols, but how many thousands of ships do you want to send there to cover the whole area? Do you know how much that would cost?
The idea of the french, to bundle the ships in convoys, guarded by a few military ships, seemed quite good, but I guess most ships cannot wait for a convoy to form so they take the risk of getting boarded by pirates.
Where did I ever say I'm pro-choice? That's just you having a prejudice/being jealous because I'm a European...Originally Posted by Centurion1
And the choice is pretty lame if both options have the same outcome...
Yes, but once you have them captured and handcuffed, what reason do you have to kill them then? If the crew wants to start a shootout with boarding pirates on an oil tanker that's their own decision, I'm not going to argue about people trying to fight for their freedom and/or lives, but it also bears quite a few risks, we already said many ports don't allow armed crews etc.
That the pirates often run away once they come under fire(or water) from almost anything also shows that they're not the cold blooded murderomaniacs that the Chinese always kill.Originally Posted by spmetla
And since when was China a role model for the West concerning how to treat people anyway?
Well, now you're pulling a pontius pilatus, washing your hands in innocence.Originally Posted by spmetla
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"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
Many ports do not allow vessels in if they have arms. Why? Here's the fun part....to prevent piracy.
It's vital to keep an armed ship out of Goa so that they won't pirate anybody in the port. Oh wait, that doesn't work, they just jump the ship en route to Goa don't they?
This is gun control at sea. The logic runs thus: "if we ban guns at sea, the tools of violence will be unavailable and the violence will be lessened." Like other prohibition efforts, it has worked wonderfully....not.
My country has been involved in international mercantilism since its inception. Armed ships sailed into our ports for decades, with the weaponry on the ship often outgunning what the port had to defend its citizens. The same can be said for much of Europe. Why are we so enamored of making merchants defenseless now?
"The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken
Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
Ik hou van ferme grieten en dikke pintenOriginally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
Down with dried flowers!
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
I agree Husar, for what is justice without mercy. I was just pointing out some of the more unique facets of violent crimes while at sea, where there are no police to call on. It's why there is a need to allow merchant vessels to arm themselves against such depredations. Convoying through pirate operating areas is a wise precaution as well. Ships captains need the international community to provide guidelines and legal authority to deal with those who are captured.Husar-Yes, but once you have them captured and handcuffed, what reason do you have to kill them then? If the crew wants to start a shootout with boarding pirates on an oil tanker that's their own decision, I'm not going to argue about people trying to fight for their freedom and/or lives, but it also bears quite a few risks, we already said many ports don't allow armed crews etc.
As for this abandoning of the pirates in a small boat without navigational aids, most modern pirates don't operate far from the coast. I'll bet that they weren't that far from safety. They probably had a fair chance to survive. I still think that the Russian acted appropriately in the circumstances. I think it unfair to judge him harshly unless one was there to observe the facts.
Rotorgun![]()
Onasander...the general must neither be so undecided that he entirely distrusts himself, nor so obstinate as not to think that anyone can have a better idea...for such a man...is bound to make many costly mistakes
Editing my posts due to poor typing and grammer is a way of life.
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