Outrage? No, sir. A sense of scale.Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)
Outrage? No, sir. A sense of scale.
When Adam delved and Eve span, Who was then the gentleman? From the beginning all men by nature were created alike, and our bondage or servitude came in by the unjust oppression of naughty men. For if God would have had any bondsmen from the beginning, he would have appointed who should be bound, and who free. And therefore I exhort you to consider that now the time is come, appointed to us by God, in which ye may (if ye will) cast off the yoke of bondage, and recover liberty. - John Ball
Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)
I just found this in the dictionary, under "tone deaf":
In what one environmentalist described as "yet another public relations disaster" for embattled energy giant BP, CEO Tony Hayward took time off Saturday to attend a glitzy yacht race around England's Isle of Wight.
As social networking sites like Twitter and Facebook lit up with outrage, BP spokespeople rushed to defend Hayward, who has drawn withering criticism as the public face of BP's halting efforts to stop the worst oil spill in U.S. history. [...]
Wine described the race as "one of the biggest sailing events in the world and he's well known to have a keen interest in it."
He said Hayward will be returning to the United States, though it's unclear when.
Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)
Tony's just trying to get his life back.
BP relied on cheaper wells.
MMS signed off on this design. Those involved should be held liable too before they end up on the Nuclear Protection Agency.The insight into BP's record comes amid fierce pressure on the oil giant and its partners, who share billions in liability in the accident. Anadarko blasted BP Friday in a statement by Chief Executive Jim Hackett, who said: "The mounting evidence clearly demonstrates that this tragedy was preventable and the direct result of BP's reckless decisions and actions."
A long-string design is cheaper because a single pipe runs the length of the well and can be installed in one step. But it also can create a dangerous pathway for natural gas to rise unchecked outside the pipe.
The alternative, known as liners, is seen as safer because it has more built-in places to prevent oil or gas from flowing up the well uncontrolled. "There are more barriers, and the barriers are easier to test," says Gene Beck, an engineer and professor at Texas A&M University.
"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." *Jim Elliot*
Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)
Why shouldn't the CEO be attending a glitzy yacht race? BP is a serial environmental criminal. If 'major health and environmental disaster happening' should prevent a party, then no BP CEO could've ever done any fun stuff in the past decades.
Silly BP should do what it's always done: organise 'citizen rallies' against government intrusion (except for handouts), buy science that shows the spill is not hazardous, and convince the public that oil, as an organic product, is a natural substance of the seas and that a slight increase of oil levels in the ocean does not mean we have Antropomorphic Environmental Change.
Well BP has a very succesful lobbying track record, managing to convince people of more absurd things than those...
Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)
Like no climate change and inhaling oil fumes being a health benefit?
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Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)
Well, I read to the open ocean the oil isn't very dangerous and is dealt with in a few days, "just" at the beaches and for the birds and dolphins it's very problematic.
And no, that wasn't a BP press release and I'm not an eggspert, just wanted to mention it.
"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)
BP is lobbying for a 'climate change' bill - a cap and trade scheme on carbon emissions.
CR
Ja Mata, Tosa.
The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder
Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)
In other shock news, man has day off.
"Put 'em in blue coats, put 'em in red coats, the bastards will run all the same!"
"The English are a strange people....They came here in the morning, looked at the wall, walked over it, killed the garrison and returned to breakfast. What can withstand them?"
Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)
Good to see a lot of Americans still insisting "British petroleum" is evil because its British. Just like the British Queen, BP too have ambitions of enslaving the world and causing unknown havoc. I've said it once and I'll say it again, this was waiting to happen. America's lust for oil is intangible, your oil consumption for capita is absurd.
As for Tony's day off, leave him alone. Pretty sure Bush took time off to shoot some golf just as American troops were heading in to Afghanistan. Then again I suppose, by the grace of God, he wasn't an evil Brit, out to destroy everything good about the world. Who knows, Maybe BP did this deliberately, perhaps it was a conspiracy? Seriously though, lets drop this anti-British rhetoric, it's unnecessary and it just perpetuates the concept that many people around the world already view, that some, yes note "some" Americans refuse to acknowledge that there great nation can be responsibly for any ills in the world and that when ever things go wrong, they look for the easiest get out, that get out this time just happens to be a company with the word "British" in its name.
Yes, BP is undeniably responsible for this catastrophe, but the refusal to re-asses your use of oil and the methods your nation goes to when securing oil just shows sheer arrogance on your part. "Drill baby, drill".
Last edited by tibilicus; 06-20-2010 at 13:40.
"A lamb goes to the slaughter but a man, he knows when to walk away."
Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)
What in God's name are you talking about? Are you serious?
Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)
"Drill baby, drill" is part of the national anthem didn't you know.
Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)
Missed that verse. Oh well, I have really only heard the first two, who knows what Frank put in the 6th stanza....
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Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)
In a nut shell, minus the sarcasm, stop the witch-hunt for BP's CEO and acknowledge that BP doesn't have 100% moral accountability with the spill. America's drilling polices are some of the most lax in the world and the US also consumes an absurd amount of oil as a nation. The point being that whilst yes, this spill is a disaster, the US was quite frankly asking for it to happen. The anti-British rhetoric and the witch-hunt for the BP heads might well calm the American people and allow Obama to "kick some ass", but it doesn't change the fact that if you continue the "drill baby, drill" mantra and don't tighten up your laws and regulations (difficult considering the power of the petroleum lobby in the US), something like this will happen again.
Why not turn crisis into opportunity and re-assess policy? I know the US wont, but still..
Last edited by tibilicus; 06-21-2010 at 02:54.
"A lamb goes to the slaughter but a man, he knows when to walk away."
Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)
Ridiculous.
I repeat again; this is not big oil's fault, it is BP's fault. The best way to reduce the risk of something like this or Texas City from happening again is to get rid of BP.
CR
Ja Mata, Tosa.
The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder
Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)
We do have the issue of government oversight and regulation though.
Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)
What anti-British rhetoric are you referring to? This, I think, is an excellent example of the media's ability to rile people up over nothing, and in fact those screaming the loudest over non-existent anti-British attitudes are in fact revealing their own anti-Americanism.
Also, are you saying that if the US lessened its consumption of oil, that would somehow prevent the possibility of an oil drilling related accident? What is the threshold that will stop such incidents? The UK currently imports about 8 million tons annually, and that is set to increase quite a bit. If we get our numbers down that low, will that magically make our oil rigs perfect - bereft of any chance of a spill?
Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)
^ agrees.
Stopping offshore drilling is so retroactive and reactionary its pathetic.
In other news republicans are ecstatic, I flipped on fox news and thought sean hannity was opening a christmas present. Id be more critical of them if democrats weren't even worse and with far less cause in katrina with bush.
Actually I heard someone on msnbc blame this on bush, which is why I flipped to fox.
Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)
Anti-British rhetoric? The fact your media is on a witch-hunt for the BP CEO when all he wants to do is take a day off with his friends and family. Apparently that's unacceptable to the American media. Perhaps its different the way your viewing things in the US but over here, the media nor the general public is reacting kindly the the idea that the UK is responsible for this, in any way, shape or form. Although yes, this current saga has probably inflamed an anti-American rhetoric amongst some people, not surprising really considering the humiliation our last leader took us through.
And your still missing my point. Your wild consumption for oil drives you to drill more and more wells. Your regulations are also so lax that companies are also permitted to drill in places which other oil exporting countries wouldn't allow to be drilled. All I'm saying is how can a country which offers such lax rules be surprised when something goes wrong? What incentive was their for BP to follow the rules? Had this incident not occurred the American public would probably still be none the wiser that most companies don't bother too much about safety on rigs and at drilling sights, because as long as they keep the black stuff coming, no ones going to check up on them.
A fairly right-wing American member arguing to forcibly remove a business?! Where's the democracy? Where's the love for capitalism?! What happened to the right to freedom which allows me to drill anywhere I want through any method I like and with little or no regard for the safety of my drill site?
Last edited by tibilicus; 06-21-2010 at 13:18.
"A lamb goes to the slaughter but a man, he knows when to walk away."
Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)
I have a hard time believing you wrote this with a straight face. But let's pretend you're serious, if only for the sake of debate.
Let's say you were CEO of a company that caused the largest ecological disaster in a generation. You know, let's play make-believe. Then let's say that your pronouncements to the press have been not-terribly-helpful from a P.R. perspective. Then let's say that no government has the gear or the know-how to fix the problem your company created, and the entire world is holding its breath, waiting to see if you can slow down your mess. (Nobody really expects you to clean it up at this stage, since getting petrochemicals out of wetlands is, you know, impossible.)
So given all that, how sensible, from a P.R. perspective, does it seem to you to go yachting? This is assuming you don't want to be villified as an out-of-touch golden-parachuted CEO. Seriously, what could you possibly do that would look more upper-crust and insensitive? Attend a high-class bloodsport betting ring in the Swiss Alps? I'm open to suggestions, here.
And then, somehow the press's gleeful savaging of this CEO translates in your brain as anti-British jingoism? Really? Please, tell us all that you are kidding.
The energy consumption of the U.S.A. is an entirely separate issue, and does not deserve to be tacked on to this strange, defensive British thing you're cooking up.
Last edited by Lemur; 06-21-2010 at 15:45.
Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)
Any company will sail as close to the rules as they can get away with. BP appears to have been using authorised techniques which on closer inspection were dangerous and not really tested.
As has been mentioned previously, they're really pushing the limit of what can be achieved currently: deep sea drilling in an area which has regular tornados. Anywhere else this would be viewed as insanity, but due to the need to keep gas cheap and securing supplies it was viewed as a good idea. If anyone at the top thought about the risks it appeared acceptable.
There is some inane idea that the CEO or whoever has to be on-site 24/7 in the event of a disaster. Is it a modern day vigil? There's no point Obama and BP's CEO sitting in sackcloth on the beach as, believe it or not, both have other things to be getting on with. Do you want such individuals making important decisions when they're too tired to think? Just like before exams, best to have a decent night's sleep to be fresh, rather than stay up every hour.
But we had this farce in Haiti with big wigs from all over the place jetting in to be pictured and incidentally blocking up the airport for such things as, well food and temporary shelter.
An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
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Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)
Giving Hayward grief is not a anti-British thing. It's all about out-of-touch CEO bashing. We did the same thing when the guys from Ford/GM/Chrysler took private jets to Congress to beg for bailout money. Hayward is just making it too easy.
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Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)
So its purely his choice of yachting that you have a problem with? I don't see how his choice of recreational activity reflects his ability to do his job. Sure, not great from a PR stand point, but it just seems like another reason for your media to crucify him in the witch-hunt.
As for the anti-British sentiment, are you denying it doesn't exist? I obviously don't have the US networks to watch this event around the clock but from what I've heard there seems to be a nice line of congressmen, political pundits and others standing up to criticise "British Petroleum" and who seem to think we can do something about it or that it's some how our responsibility. Iv'e certainly heard calls for our PM to put pressure on BP and there's been people in this very thread who seem to think we, as a nation, some how have a responsibility for this mess. We have zero percent responsibility as far as I'm concerned. Arguably yes, such criticism aimed at BP by highlighting the fact it's a British company has died down over the last couple of weeks, but initially it was quite strong and it seemed to be an attempt by your current administration and various people within the media and Congress to find another person to blame for the spill.
Also, a little wake up call, whilst you all discuss this disaster,do I need to remind you all how much oil has been spilt in the Niger Delta in the last 20 years? Believe me, it's a lot. By the logic of some people here, why aren't all companies removed from the Niger Delta due to irresponsibility? By the same logic that CR is going off, the environmental damage is massive and its a continuous problem so surly all the company's involved should be banned from operation in the Delta? Or is it a different case?
Last edited by tibilicus; 06-21-2010 at 16:14.
"A lamb goes to the slaughter but a man, he knows when to walk away."
Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)
Do you have any links for this anti-British sentiment? I don't watch the news, but the only evidence I've seen of it is British people in this thread getting upset, apparently assuming that calling BP British Petroleum must mean that Britain, rather than BP, is somehow responsible.
I don't think anyone here is suggesting that BP's cleanup efforts will suffer for the sake of their fearless leader being away for a day. The bad PR's the point.I don't see how his choice of recreational activity reflects his ability to do his job. Sure, not great from a PR stand point
Definitely a different case. There are no international superpowers in the Niger delta to get upset and make others do what they want. Should the companies there suffer the same backlash? Of course. Will they? Nope. Sucks, but that's realpolitik. Are you suggesting America shouldn't be upset at a huge environmental disaster in its waters, because it's also happening elsewhere? Maybe we should just ignore this to show our solidarity with West Africa?Also, a little wake up call, whilst you all discuss this disaster,do I need to remind you all how much oil has been spilt in the Niger Delta in the last 20 years? Believe me, it's a lot. By the logic of some people here, why aren't all companies removed from the Niger Delta due to irresponsibility? By the same logic that CR is going off, the environmental damage is massive and its a continuous problem so surly all the company's involved should be banned from operation in the Delta? Or is it a different case?
Ajax
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Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)
Considering that a big part of his job is representing BP to the world, I'd say it shows him failing miserably at his role. The only way he could make thing worse would be to complain about how negro servants just aren't as snappy as they used to be when imported directly from the West Indes colonies.
If you think that Americans are running around dumping tea in Boston Harbor and blaming inclement weather on the filthy British, you're dreaming. This entire persecution complex seems to originate from some people (mistakenly) calling BP "British Petroleum." Which was the freakin' name of the company for fifty-plus years. If you have something of greater substance to prove Brit-bashing, by all means, link and share. In the meantime, you seem to be asking everyone to defend a tidal wave of anti-British jingoism that you have yet to establish as, you know, existing.
Last edited by Lemur; 06-21-2010 at 17:02.
Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)
In keeping with my tradition of posting snide sarcastic commentary in this thread:
Maybe its time we prevented companies from evading taxes and safety regulations through the use of offshore havens. You know, stop bending over backwards for companies because 'it's good for business, therefore good for the people'.
If only British Petroleum really were a proper British company, (and if only Britain would properly tax and regulate companies), and if only the US would tax and regulate companies with the same determination that it taxes middle class families, then we'd see less of this.P’s oil spew and foreign vessel operations on the outer continental shelf (OCS) were the focus of a June 17 hearing held by the Coast Guard Subcommittee of the House Committee on Transportation, which found that foreign rigs dominate drilling in the Gulf of Mexico, creating tax evasion and safety inspection problems.
The Deepwater Horizon exploratory rig that exploded April 20, killing eleven and smothering the Gulf of Mexico in oil, was a foreign mobile offshore drilling unit (MODU) built in Korea, registered in the Marshall Islands and owned by Transocean, Ltd., a company incorporated in Switzerland “it’s assumed to avoid US tax,” said Subcommittee Chair Elijah Cummings (D-MD). Transocean’s tax in Switzerland is 16 percent, compared to 35% in the US.
Chairman Cummings stunned with his opening statement: “The Coast Guard can’t say” how many foreign-flagged MODUs are operating on the OCS because “they are not required to announce their arrival.” Devising a rule for such announcement began in 2006 but “it’s not done,” which is “tragically unacceptable,” he added.
Rep. Frank LoBiondo (R-NJ) said the number of vessels operating under the US flag has plummeted and many are now operating “under flags of convenience…We don’t know what vessels are in US waters or what they’re doing.”
All foreign-flagged vessels must comply with the laws of their respective nations and the US concerning safety inspections, but Transportation Chairman James Oberstar (D-MN) noted, “Some have low standards… Who verifies the Marshall Islands is doing proper inspections?” He referenced a dispute between BP and Transocean regarding maintenance of the Deepwater Horizon, and asked if the Coast Guard has the capability to take over inspections from the Minerals Management Service (MMS).
The MMS is charged with drilling inspections and according to Mary Kendall, Inspector General for the Department of the Interior, there are currently only 50 inspectors for 4000 rigs operating in the Gulf. Speaking before the House Natural Resources Committee at a separate hearing the same day, she reported “a dearth of regulations” for MMS inspections with “little direction regarding what and how to inspect.”
http://www.democraticunderground.com...ss=389x8592477
Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)
i'm quite happy with the way things are, thank you very much.
Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar
Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)
Took me about 5 seconds of googling.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...oil-spill.html
Ironically, the advert was paid for by BP, shows how much of a British company BP really is.
So your accepting that because the US is a superpower, it has the right to try and stick a company to the wall and to deny itself of any blame? Does it not also highlight the dangers of the unregulated industry, no? Nigeria has no such regulations and hence the oil companies do what they want. Obviously the USA's rules aren't as lax as Nigeria's but surely they to are part of the problem? As Rory highlighted, the "drill baby, drill" policy encourages companies to push the rules to the limits and generally speaking, if they go unnoticed no one really cares.Definitely a different case. There are no international superpowers in the Niger delta to get upset and make others do what they want. Should the companies there suffer the same backlash? Of course. Will they? Nope. Sucks, but that's realpolitik. Are you suggesting America shouldn't be upset at a huge environmental disaster in its waters, because it's also happening elsewhere? Maybe we should just ignore this to show our solidarity with West Africa?
I don't think the Norwegians would have allowed BP to be operating a rig in such a way or in such a location either. Live and learn..
"A lamb goes to the slaughter but a man, he knows when to walk away."
Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)
I think the problem is that the USA like to portray themselves as a force of good, the democratic world police that makes everything okay again, but when there's a huge catastrophe in Africa they don't even raise an eyebrow (unless it's a bunch of fisherman disrupting their perfect industrial flow of goods of course), if a similar thing happens in their waters, it's a big deal, you get the impression that the whole world police image is just big farce and that realization is quite sad and disturbing for all of us USA fanboys. Time to take down my US world police flags and put up some good old german flags, it's everybody for themselves after all.
Spoken like a true conservative.
You'd probably appreciate it then if BP stopped trying to fix that oil spill, right?
"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)
That is an example of anti-British sentiment??
I have to admit that as a German I am used to more and and "nastier" tongue-in-cheek comments from our good friends in the UK.
Are there some more tangible things, e.g., people being asked to boycott products from Britain in general?
Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)
Non sequitur.
Lemur said it all better than I could have.
And your still missing my point. Your wild consumption for oil drives you to drill more and more wells.
No, I am not. You drew a correlation between oil consumption and the occurrence of accidents. Can you support such a linkage? You are aware that even if oil consumption was vastly reduced, new wells would have to be drilled, right?
Also, according to Mr. Hayward in his testimony to congress, the US has some of the strictest drilling regulations in the world, which didn't matter because BP follows a global drilling policy that is even stricter. So it appears the problem is with corruption at both BP and the MMS, not lax regulation.
Now can you find another example? That was the only example of any anti-British sentiment I could find on the first 3 pages of google news - an aborted local ad campaign paid for by BP.Took me about 5 seconds of googling.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...oil-spill.html
Ironically, the advert was paid for by BP, shows how much of a British company BP really is.
That much is clear, as you are way off the mark on this one.I obviously don't have the US networks to watch this event around the clock
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