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The Lemongate
06-04-2008, 15:36
Anastasios is clearly losing his temper. His voice grows louder and his hands wave about to punctuate his speech.
This is a floor of debate. If there is no point in arguing, why should we even be here in the first place!
Senators, I am tired of this rhetoric. You are either blinding yourselves willingly to this man’s dishonesty – and do not make me get the charters of our House to prove it, or some of you actually have unmentionned accords with this man, which you should think about twice, seeing as he has already crossed a fine line between a simple change of heart and an odious betrayal!
Secondly, the willingness to gift land to the Emperor is commendable, but the Emperor has his own lands and his own armies. I would never act against him or deny him in any way as he is my Lord before God, but he has no need for the handful of pitiful mud houses that make up Durazzo! Some bright, up and coming Senators, on the other hand, who are not busied with the ruling of the greatest Empire our world has known, can devote all their time and attention to develop Epirus and gain position and status to enable them to lead imperial forces for the greater glory of the Empire and it’s Basileos!
Vindictive diplomacy is the action of cowards!
I would have Tagaris speak with me or Monomachos privately about this affaire, and we could all… answer for our actions and ambitions.
Surely Senators, you can see the validity of discussion this point between men, rather then rashly throwing about legislation!
Askthepizzaguy
06-04-2008, 15:38
Which House exactly? Can you make a list of all the members of that particular house and refer to the statements where each individual member supported the Edict as you claim?
Yes, which house indeed. Look at your blue shield and white cross and tell me which house.
The Edict stipulates that the Basileus will be the one who will judge over the faith of Durazzo.
Please, tell us why won't you trust the judgement of our Emperor in this matter?
Are you implying that the Basileus is incompetent?
Savvas stares at Strator Monomachos
Is that the best you've got? Your sole argument is that you speak in the name of the Emperor, and until he confirms that, it's total rubbish.
Yes, give me more bits of false logic to argue against. You claim to speak in the name of the Emperor, and all who question the emperor are traitors. Yes, this tactic has been used to silence critics many times.
Why don't you just ask me something equally loaded and ridiculous, like why I hate God so much, or if my parents know that I am gay. You bring false assumptions and illogical statements, and nothing more.
If another person questions my allegiance to the emperor because I oppose this legislation, I will ask them if they have been schooled in rhetoric or sophistry.
_Tristan_
06-04-2008, 15:47
Methodios Tagaris is seen scribbling a note and passing it to one of the Senate officials.
Kagemusha
06-04-2008, 15:50
Monomachos, restrain yourself. If you are calling words of Senator rubbish without any proof, you are insulting the office of Senator. You can call Tagaris a lier or that he speaks rubbish if the Basileos denies that he has consented the edict Tagaris proposed. But your current words say nothing else then disrespect towards office of Roman senator, while calling his words rubbish without any evidence of lies.
The Lemongate
06-04-2008, 15:51
Looking directly at Tagaris, Anastasios hisses:
You show a troubling lack of willingness to cooperate Tagaris! This is the third time I ask for your cooperation on this matter! THIRD! And yet you ignore me. If your aims are indeed worthy, then you should not be afraid to discuss them in a civilized manner.
Yes, which house indeed. Look at your blue shield and white cross and tell me which house.
My dear colleague. There's no need to be rude. I asked a simple enough question. Please answer it.
OOC: Don't worry about being "rude". I'm actually enjoying this ~;)
Is that the best you've got? Your sole argument is that you speak in the name of the Emperor, and until he confirms that, it's total rubbish.
Yes, give me more bits of false logic to argue against. You claim to speak in the name of the Emperor, and all who question the emperor are traitors. Yes, this tactic has been used to silence critics many times.
Don't put words in my mouth that I never have spoken. I never claimed that I am speaking in the name of our Emperor. Our Emperor is capable of speaking for himself.
Are you implying that our Emperor cannot speak for himself? Are you yet again implying that our Emperor is incompetent?
I'm merely trying to explain that the Edict lets the Emperor decide on the fate of Durazzo, no more no less and you seem to be opposed to that.
That's why I say that I find your lack of trust in the competence of our Basileus hightly disturbing.
Senator Monomachos, are you insinuating that the House of the Tagamata is intentionally trying to prevent your House from acquiring Durazzo? If so, that is ridiculous. There are four members of Tagamata, and only two of us have spoken up on this issue. Furthermore, I initially attacked Senator Tagaris believing that his legislation was made for personal reasons! You have lost all sense of reasoning if you think that Tagamata is somehow conspiring against your House. Speaking of which, which House exactly are you loyal to? Since I am apparently part of some conspiracy against your House, it would be useful for me to know who I should be attacking.
Askthepizzaguy
06-04-2008, 16:00
My dear colleague. There's no need to be rude. I asked a simple enough question. Please answer it.
By my count, your house has at least two members seconding this legislation, and several others, some of whom have declared "no allegiance". Interesting that this legislation could be used to deny our house a province, which could benefit yours.
And to think I was considering cooperation with your house for our mutual expansion. Now I see my gestures of cooperation and friendship will be spat upon by the greedy.
Don't put words in my mouth that I never have spoken. I never claimed that I am speaking in the name of our Emperor. Our Emperor is capable of speaking for himself.
Your faction continues to imply that the Emperor is the one who wants this legislation passed, without proof, and you continue to call me a traitor for opposing it.
And you continue to use this false argument:
Are you implying that our Emperor cannot speak for himself? Are you yet again implying that our Emperor is incompetent?
I'm merely trying to explain that the Edict lets the Emperor decide on the fate of Durazzo, no more no less and you seem to be opposed to that.
That's why I say that I find your lack of trust in the competence of our Basileus hightly disturbing.
This is nothing more than accusing me of being a traitor rather than explaining ONCE AND FOR ALL WHY THIS LEGISLATION IS NECESSARY!!!
What exactly will be lost by allowing my house or my allies to claim Durazzo? If you want it for yourself JUST SAY SO.
Monomachos, restrain yourself.
When I am done being accused of traitorism, and people finally stop putting words in the Emperor's mouth, and those who seek to deny my house their rightful claims explain why, then I will restrain myself and not before.
If you are calling words of Senator rubbish without any proof, you are insulting the office of Senator. You can call Tagaris a lier or that he speaks rubbish if the Basileos denies that he has consented the edict Tagaris proposed. But your current words say nothing else then disrespect towards office of Roman senator, while calling his words rubbish without any evidence of lies.
The evidence is self-evident, my good man. The Emperor is not speaking, and someone else is claiming he said something that is not on record.
Until the Emperor speaks for himself it's just plain evident to all sane persons that he hasn't said it yet.
And for those of you who continue to question my allegiance and call me a fool, I can rightly accuse you of disrespecting a war veteran and the office of a Senator as well, BUT I WILL NOT, because it's a RED HERRING ARGUMENT and I will not be distracted by bit players and issues which are not being debated.
Now answer me. WHY IS THIS LEGISLATION NECESSARY???
Senator Monomachos, are you insinuating that the House of the Tagamata is intentionally trying to prevent your House from acquiring Durazzo? If so, that is ridiculous. There are four members of Tagamata, and only two of us have spoken up on this issue. Furthermore, I initially attacked Senator Tagaris believing that his legislation was made for personal reasons! You have lost all sense of reasoning if you think that Tagamata is somehow conspiring against your House. Speaking of which, which House exactly are you loyal to? Since I am apparently part of some conspiracy against your House, it would be useful for me to know who I should be attacking.
Yes, when only half of your house supports legislation, it would seem to be obvious that the official position of that house is against the legislation.
:dizzy:
My allegiances are not the point of discussion. Should you want an answer to that question, talk with me privately. I WILL NOT have this argument changed for your benefit. Stick to the issues.
Ah, Strator Efstratios Monomachos.
The question is not whether this legislation is necessary or not. No, my esteemed colleague, the important question is : "Why are you opposed against an Edict that allows the Basileus to take a decision?"
It has been made clear that your loyalty is questionable. Didn't you already in fact break an oath of fealthy? Which House do you belong to now? The House of the Asteri or The House of the Tepaki? How long will it take before you break your most recent oath and will swear yet another one? An illegal one, might I add. Just read the Charter...
Your recent history and behaviour more then justifies the questioning of your loyalty towards the Basileus.
A bumbling Tarasios Sarantinos rushes into the Senate house with a bright red face and gasping for air. "Do excuse me, my mother says I should run along to the Senate as is my duty or I will be grounded for a week." Even redder in the face he takes a seat next to Monomachos, much to the amusement of half the Senate.
Begging your pardon, Senator Monomachos, but your allegiances are exactly the point of the discussion here. The current wording of Edict 1.9 is entirely in favor of the Basileus. It gives him freedom of choice and control over what happens with Durazzo. Indeed, the way Edict 1.9 is worded, you yourself could be chosen to lead the attack and the Basileus could even give the province to you as a reward! Yet instead of promoting yourself as a better alternative for the job than Senator Tagaris, you attack the legislation itself. By proxy, you are attacking the Basileus. Opposing this legislation means you do not trust his judgment on this issue. If you do not trust the Basileus to do what is right for the Empire, who do you trust?
As for my loyalities, I am loyal to the House of the Tagamata because that House exists specifically to support the Basileus and his efforts to return the Empire to its former glory. I initially opposed Edict 1.9 because I believed it was a method of circumventing the Basileus. Now that it has been rephrased to give him complete freedom of choice, I support it whole-heartedly, because the legislation itself favors the Basileus. Saying that Tagamata pursues this Edict out of greed is also blatantly false, as we gain nothing from it. None of our members has asked for command of the attack on Durazzo and the province will be given to the Basileus, not to us. The only way we could benefit from this legislation would be if the Basileus chose to give Durazzo to us after it was taken. Yet again this brings us around to whether you are questioning the wisdom and integrity of the Basileus himself.
Askthepizzaguy
06-04-2008, 16:27
With that Efstratios Monomachos breaks into uproarious laughter!
BAH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
The question is not whether this legislation is necessary or not. No, my esteemed colleague, the important question is : "Why are you opposed against an Edict that allows the Basileus to take a decision?"
You are purposefully ignoring the question and are trying to again push your false argument that being against this legislation means being opposed to the Emperor. As such, I will not do you the same disservice. I will actually do you the honour of RESPONDING to your question. Wish you would do the same.
I am opposed to this edict because it is proposed without just cause. The Emperor has not asked for Durazzo. The Emperor has not stated that he wishes to possess Durazzo. The Emperor has not indicated to my satisfaction that he is opposed to myself or my allies or my house being the liberator of the province. The sole purpose of this legislation is to take without just cause a claimed province from those who are in position to take it and have long declared their intentions to.
Never, not once, have the supporters of this edict declared why it is necessary to steal the claim of this province for the excuse of handing it to the Emperor so he can decide whom to give it to.
It seems self-evident that those who claim and capture the province should have a right to it, but your faction seeks to take it away under the guise of "allowing the Emperor to decide who should have it".
It's a smokescreen for your true intentions, which are clear to anyone who reads the edict and our claims to the province prior to the edict that you dont want me our my allies to claim the province.
Is this really such a hard concept?
It has been made clear that your loyalty is questionable. Didn't you already in fact break an oath of fealthy? Which House do you belong to now? The House of the Asteri or the House of the Tepaki? How long will it take before you break your most recent oath and will swear yet another one? An illegal one, might I add. Just read the Charter...
I will not respond to those who are blatantly and nakedly and desperately trying to change the subject.
IT DOESNT MATTER whom I am aligned with. It has no relevance to the discussion. If you actually cared, you would ask me in private. I will not let you hijack the debate.
Your recent history and behaviour more then justifies the questioning of your loyalty towards the Basileus.
More ad hominem sophistry. Do you not know how to debate with reason, sir? Or are you clinging to denigrating and demonizing and mudslinging your opponent? CAN YOUR ARGUMENT NOT STAND ON ITS OWN? Is it so feeble that you cannot answer the simple question "why" is your edict necessary?
Why is it necessary?
WHY is it necessary??
WHY IS IT NECESSARY????
ANSWER ME!!!
Begging your pardon, Senator Monomachos, but your allegiances are exactly the point of the discussion here. The current wording of Edict 1.9 is entirely in favor of the Basileus. It gives him freedom of choice and control over what happens with Durazzo. Indeed, the way Edict 1.9 is worded, you yourself could be chosen to lead the attack and the Basileus could even give the province to you as a reward! Yet instead of promoting yourself as a better alternative for the job than Senator Tagaris, you attack the legislation itself. By proxy, you are attacking the Basileus. Opposing this legislation means you do not trust his judgment on this issue. If you do not trust the Basileus to do what is right for the Empire, who do you trust?
Thats an entirely false and disingenuous argument, and I will not insult you by claiming that you don't already know this. Surely a man of your intellect knows that what you've just proposed as a rational debate is a straw man argument. Instead of answering why this legislation is even necessary, you claim that I must argue erroneously why I don't distrust the Emperor.
I will not have you frame the debate for me. You can continue to put words in my mouth and claim that I must be disloyal to the emperor because your house and your allies don't want me in possession of Durazzo. But you're not fooling anyone with this nonsense, least of all me.
And you know bloody well this argument is not about my allegiances. And since I've already staked a claim to the province, it seems ludicrous that I should nod like an idiot and agree that "well, maybe after all this debating and political posturing, the edict won't matter anyway because I'll get to claim it after all".
Utter hogwash. The only purpose an edict like this serves is to deny those who have already claimed the province the right to take it.
My question, why, still stands.
As for my loyalities, I am loyal to the House of the Tagamata because that House exists specifically to support the Basileus and his efforts to return the Empire to its former glory. I initially opposed Edict 1.9 because I believed it was a method of circumventing the Basileus. Now that it has been rephrased to give him complete freedom of choice, I support it whole-heartedly, because the legislation itself favors the Basileus. Saying that Tagamata pursues this Edict out of greed is also blatantly false, as we gain nothing from it. None of our members has asked for command of the attack on Durazzo and the province will be given to the Basileus, not to us. The only way we could benefit from this legislation would be if the Basileus chose to give Durazzo to us after it was taken. Yet again this brings us around to whether you are questioning the wisdom and integrity of the Basileus himself.
I don't give a flying magic carpet what your loyalties are, and I resent that this debate is now focused on mine. I swore allegiance to the Emperor publicly, and that should be good enough for you. YOU are not my leige.
I tire of the straw man argument that I am questioning the Basileus instead of the legislation itself or why it is necessary. Will you finally stop that nonsense and argue like a man?
Privateerkev
06-04-2008, 16:35
I do not see why the question of "who do you serve" has caused such uproar from Efstratios.
It seems he is still officially sworn to Anastasios. But conversations that have been overheard in the inn where House Tapeki is headquartered are interesting. (OOC: Peverpink made clear that the inn is open to all so I see no problem using posts in there as IC knowledge)
My guess is that Efstratios is staying loyal to Asteri just long enough to get Durazzo. Then he will turn and hand over the province to House Tapeki so that House finally has some land.
Strator Monomachos, please tell me, which one of the Houses you belong to claimed Durazzo? Or was it House Monomachos?
I regret the public display of your anger and rage in this sacred place.
A civilised man would simply propose another Edict, opposed to the Edict 1.9 (b) we our discussing right now and would try to gain support for that Edict.
That's how this legislative body works, my dear colleague.
Or are you also opposed to the Senate, its' purpose and the way it works?
Kagemusha
06-04-2008, 16:35
Ioannis whispers something to his servants ear and the servant discreetly walks to young Tarasios Sarantinos and points him towards the Komnendoukai seats, away from the red faced Monomachos.
It is necessary because, with one exception, Durazzo is the only nearby province which can be taken by a Senator without the prior approval of the Basileus. Every other province has walls of some kind, which means that infantry will be required to reduce them. Infantry have to be supplied by the Baslieus, thus the Basileus will control who obtains these provinces. The only exception to this is the Caesar, who controls his own Royal Army. However, as he is a loyal son of the Basileus, I suspect he is more than willing to abide by his father's wishes.
The legislation is necessary specifically because it prevents people like you from denying the Basileus the right to choose which Senators or Houses, if any, gain control over the various nearby provinces.
Askthepizzaguy
06-04-2008, 16:37
OOC-
I've already stated that if you wish to know my allegiances, private message me and we will discuss it. I'm not responding to it because it's not the topic.
Case closed.
It is necessary because, with one exception, Durazzo is the only nearby province which can be taken by a Senator without the prior approval of the Basileus. Every other province has walls of some kind, which means that infantry will be required to reduce them. Infantry have to be supplied by the Baslieus, thus the Basileus will control who obtains these provinces. The only exception to this is the Caesar, who controls his own Royal Army. However, as he is a loyal son of the Basileus, I suspect his is more than willing to abide by his father's wishes.
The legislation is necessary specifically because it prevents people like you from denying the Basileus the right to choose which Senators or Houses, if any, gain control over the various nearby provinces.
At long last, my question is finally answered.
Now I must ask, why does it bother you so much that your fellow Senator and loyal servant of the Emperor has claimed a province and intends to take it? You speak as if I were the enemy.
If the Emperor would stand before us and explain that he doesn't want me to have Durazzo, then that will end this debate because I serve him, not you.
And I've highlighted the most telling point. The wording after that should be replaced with "from claiming provinces rightfully because my house is engaging in petty rivalry". How precisely could I deny the Basileos ANYTHING?
If I opposed the Emperor he could have me dragged into the center of town and had my throat cut for treason. Your argument that I am somehow tying the hands of our Basileus is absurd. I am now beginning to question the ingenuous nature of what you're trying to say. It makes absolutely no sense.
_Tristan_
06-04-2008, 16:39
Yes that was exactly the reason behind my proposal.
I have made clear my intentions of how I will deal with that settlement once captured, turning it over to the Basileos' domain.
That much cannot be said of other contenders whose motives are much foggier...
Poor Tara is clearly torn between disobeying his mother and moving away from One-Brow Matchos and sitting with his house. Royal duty wins the day and Tara walks away from Machos with a wide-eyed glance.
The Lemongate
06-04-2008, 17:00
Senators, before this debate gets any coarser, let us see if we can reach an accord. I have finally been able to talk to Tagaris in private. Please be patient and let us attempt to resolve this as these debates are getting out of hand.
Askthepizzaguy
06-04-2008, 17:20
And now that the true intentions behind this edict have been made clear elsewhere...
:clown:
I propose cooperation instead of petty rivalry. If you wanted the province, my good man, you should have just said so. There's little point in this edict when we could discuss ownership like civilized men instead of fools.
Efstratios honks his giant red nose and spins his enormous bowtie around in circles.
You want this province, don't you? I can feel your desire. Take your steel sword, strike down the rebels there with it, give in to your anger. With each passing moment you make yourself more the Emperor's servant.
But why should we bicker and argue about it? Let's take the bloody thing together. Cooperation, gentlemen. We can expand all of our houses and give everyone what we want. Let us first focus on taking the settlements in question, then we can divide them between us.
We are ONE empire after all. Let's act like it. I propose a compromise. We will take the settlement together, and it will be the property of my house until my house expands further. Then, we can hand it over to you, good senator Tagaris. Perhaps we can continue our cooperation after that as well.
Why do our houses not work together to expand in the direction we all desire? We clearly want to go west, so let's go west, with the Emperor's permission or by Edict or both, whichever is the proper way. We should negotiate who owns what instead of make the Basileos decide for us, as if we were children who cannot reason.
Lastly, I hope that the tired and worn tactic of questioning my loyalties or allegiances has finally been put to rest. It does us all a disservice, gentlemen.
_Tristan_
06-04-2008, 17:35
I have no interest in the left-overs from your table, Monomachios.
I do not want land per se but want only to protect the people of Durazzo and claim land for our Basileos so that he can provide support to any of the Senators or Houses he deems worthy of it, be it now or in the future.
Askthepizzaguy
06-04-2008, 17:43
No interest in the province, but enough to propose an edict about it.
Very well, since we cannot reach an agreement as gentlemen, I'll just have to propose edict 1.10
"Rebel provinces may be claimed by those who actually capture them. If two or more senators take the rebel provinces, the Emperor can decide who deserves the province. Furthermore, Edict 1.9 is entirely unneccessary and unduly restricts the rights of Senators to claim rebel territory."
Now that the rational debate is over from me, and the ad hominem attacks and straw man arguments are over from the supporters of 1.9, let's just vote on the bloody thing and move on, no hard feelings, fellow Senators.
Though I would appreciate it if you would not question my loyalties in public again or engage in slander.
Privateerkev
06-04-2008, 17:55
OOC:
LAWFARE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Glorious Lawfare!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:clown:
Senators, I bring your attention to this:
2.2 – Gaining and Losing Provinces: Except as stated in Rule 2.7, Senators gain control of all provinces they personally conquer. In the event that multiple Senators are part of the conquering army, the Senator controlled by the player who actually fought the battle is considered the conqueror. If the battle is autoresolved, the commanding Senator is considered the conqueror. If no Senator is involved in the battle whatsoever, the Basileus is considered the conqueror. [...]
So if you capture a province, it is yours if you have no lord. If Tagaris wants to promise that he will pass the territory on to the Emperor, I see no problem with that. But what if someone else takes the province? Would they then be forced to pass the province on? Would that violate their rights under Charter clause 2.2?
*The Protoasecretes rises and clears his throat.*
As a point of order, I must make clear that Edict 1.10 is not valid as written. The Edict directly contradicts the Imperial Charter, and thus it must be in the form of an Amendment, not a normal Edict. As Senator Efstratios Monomachos does not have sufficient rank to propose an Amendment, I hereby declare Edict 1.10 void and it will not be put to the vote. This will not count against the Senator's Edict limit, though, and he may freely propose a new Edict or alter his current one in a manner that makes it legal.
The Lemongate
06-04-2008, 18:19
Anastasios who has been discussing in private with Tagaris lifts his head and reminds the assembly:
Senator Tagaris and I are trying to resolve this issue in private. I strongly urge everyone to please be patient.
*The Protoasecretes rises and clears his throat... again*
Eh, I appear to be getting forgetful in my old age. It has been brought to my attention that Edict 1.9 also violates the Charter in the same manner as Edict 1.10, namely by altering the manner in which provinces are allocated. Accordingly, it must be proposed as an Amendment, which Senator Methodios Tagaris cannot do. Edict 1.9 is thus also void unless it is altered to make it legal. Similarly, the invalid Edict 1.9 will not be counted against Senator Tagaris' limit.
As a word of advice, Edict 1.9 can be made legal by deleting the following words: "After the village of Durazzo has been conquered, it will belong to the Empire and the Basileus, and only the Basileus, can do with it as he sees fit."
Of course, I remind everyone that the Senate is free to dispute my rulings on these matters. In such a case, it would be up to the Basileus to determine their outcome, though in the case of Edict 1.9, the job would fall to a group of the highest ranking Senators, in this case the Comes, as Edict 1.9 directly involves the Basileus himself.
Well, I must say, that has been the most frivolous argument since the one about Antioch not too long ago. I am glad to see so many wishing to scramble for Durazzo, as the only person who actually owns adjacent land. As long as somebody captures it and holds it before the Venetians, I am happy. Remember the Venetians? I am sure they have designs for it too. Why, their nobles may be arguing at this very moment the assembly of their republic about who should be the one to take it.
Askthepizzaguy
06-04-2008, 18:43
Now that the straw man, red herring, ad hominem, false assumption, and slanderous arguments regarding an illegal edict whose true purpose has been exposed is over, I believe I have been vindicated. So, my good Markianos, I welcome your support in my claims over the rebels of Durazzo. Rest assured, the Venetians and the Sicilians will have to get through me in order to get to you, and the Emperor.
As we have already seen, sometimes I can be a formidible opponent. I will bring this same passion here to the defense of the realm.
_Tristan_
06-04-2008, 18:43
I shall soon reformulate the Edict 1.9 to make it legal.
The Lemongate
06-04-2008, 18:47
Anastasios who seems on the verge of another long tirade, but tries to refrain himself:
Senators! Let this dispute be resolved by those who see an interest in it! The edict will be re-written in a form that will be both legally correct, without the need for long interpretation and will not ruffle the feathers of any Senators involved! Now will you please give us the time to work on this and propose you an accord?
Askthepizzaguy
06-04-2008, 18:52
Efstratios rises again to immediately protest, but notices he is being asked to be quiet by an ally this time.
An ally... what in the bloody blazes is that???
ANNOUNCEMENT:
After careful review of the Charter, I have not technically sworn fealty to anyone in the proper manner I am supposed to, and am not allowed to while the Senate is in session. Therefore my allegiances are not clearly defined, except to the Emperor himself.
Privateerkev
06-04-2008, 19:25
After careful review of the Charter, I have not technically sworn fealty to anyone in the proper manner I am supposed to, and am not allowed to while the Senate is in session. Therefore my allegiances are not clearly defined, except to the Emperor himself
OOC: You have sworn fealty to Anastasios in the House of Asteri thread. He accepted the oath.
TC is allowing oath swearing during this first Senate session since we can't really affect the voting power of the Senators.
Askthepizzaguy
06-04-2008, 19:39
That's what I thought, and then I was contacted by a certain someone who shall remain TinCow.
Did I word it improperly?
2.2 – Gaining and Losing Provinces: Except as stated in Rule 2.7, Senators gain control of all provinces they personally conquer. In the event that multiple Senators are part of the conquering army, the Senator controlled by the player who actually fought the battle is considered the conqueror. If the battle is autoresolved, the commanding Senator is considered the conqueror. If no Senator is involved in the battle whatsoever, the Basileus is considered the conqueror. At the start of the game, TinCow will determine which Senators receive control of the starting provinces, to a maximum of one province per Senator. Senators can only lose control of one of their provinces if they voluntarily give it to another Senator, if it is conquered by an AI faction, or if it is occupied by the army of a Senator who has made a Declaration of War against them (See Section 5).
As you can see, the Charter does not mention anything about the right of Senators to conquer a given province. The Charter does not forbid that a Senator must have the permission of the Basileus before conquering a certain settlement.
Therefor, I think that an Edict which states that the approval of the Basileus is required before a certain Senator can conquer a certain province, is not illegal. Thus, Edict 1.9 can be rephrased as follows:
No Senator is allowed to conquer the settlement of Durazzo without the explicit previous permission of the Basileus. The Basileus is free to grant the Senator of his choice the military or financially means necessary for a succesful conquest.
This Edict does not violate the Charter and has the same effect as the original Edict 1.9 b would have had. Once the settlement of Durazzo has been conquered conform Edict 1.9, it will belong to the Senator who is considered the conqueror following rule 2.2 of the Charter.
Can I ask one of my esteemed colleagues to propose this rewritten edict 1.9?
_Tristan_
06-04-2008, 20:30
As I said earlier, or to some of you, I am more a military man than a politician and thus liable to errors in drafting legislation.
I hope this shall find your whole support.
Edict 1.9c : No Senator is allowed to conquer the settlement of Durazzo without the explicit previous permission of the Basileus. The Basileus is free to grant the Senator of his choice the military or financially means necessary for a successful conquest. The village is to be occupied, no harm shall be done to its civilian population once all resistance is dealt with. (OOC : Occupy, no sacking, no exterminating)
I second Edict 1.9 (c) , as rephrased.
Privateerkev
06-04-2008, 20:40
I second Edict 1.9
The Lemongate
06-04-2008, 20:53
Bah... take the damned village and be done with it since you will simply not hear any sense.
Traitor!
Askthepizzaguy
06-04-2008, 21:15
Now I must wonder, why just Durazzo?
Why only this province and not all the others? Hmmm?
Privateerkev
06-04-2008, 21:26
Strator Khristophoros Diogenis already made this clear. Durazzo is the only nearby village. A village can be taken by just a general because there are no gates to batter down. Since a general can move freely by himself, an Edict was needed to prevent a general from taking the province without the Emperor's permission. With all other settlements, the Emperor can make sure they are not taken by simply denying troops to the army. Which would make it impossible to bash down the gates. Only the Emperor and the Caesar have legal armies. Everyone else only has troops with the express permission of the Emperor.
*staying quiet uptil now, the still boyish figure coughs loudly, drawing attention to himself, more accidentaly than on purpose, heads shift to look at him, thinking on his feet but slightly red-faced he says*
I must agree with Monomachos..... why argue over what is, currently, a backwater?
I could understand the arguments over Antioch, and I would certantly understand if this debate was over who will gain Ragusa or.... Venice itself, but its not, some backwater village in some province that saw its best days long ago, is that really what the magnaura should debate about?
So long as someone in the empire controls it, its people are worth protecting and the village developing. it could be my youthful idealism speaking here, but other than that, why would it matter?
With that aside, I'd like to draw attention to the Turks, who pose the greatest threat to roman security, what should our policy be to that confedaration of barbarians?
I for one, feel we should not attack them.... yet
but rather shift our forces eastward whenever we can, so that the empire may retake Antollia as soon as she is able.
*He looks rather pleased with his quick thinking as he retakes his seat*
Askthepizzaguy
06-04-2008, 21:45
Oh, it's very simple Lisas...
This province is being argued about because that way, certain senators will be able to snatch the province from those who claimed it. Everything else is a smokescreen for their real intentions.
Those with blind ambition have forsaken cooperation and reason and have decided to go with rivalry, greed, and legislating politics. But fear not, because surely they do this for the good of the Empire, and the unity of our people.
With such ravenous desire and naked avarice over a small assembly of huts, one questions how bloodthirsty some senators will be over real provinces.
GeneralHankerchief
06-05-2008, 03:38
Patriarchal Representative:
My Lords, it appears that His Eminence Nicholas III has just completed a second Proclamation for this year. While this is highly unusual and will generally not be repeated, it appears as if His Eminence is issuing a challenge to all of the rulers of the Empire's cities.
The Lemongate
06-05-2008, 04:02
I fully support the Patriarch's request, and should I ever come into the possession of a settlement, I will strive to complete these structures, even should an other senator complete them first. There is no reason to deprive our people of their houses of faith and of the food that keeps our armies strong.
Privateerkev
06-05-2008, 04:05
I am saddened that the Patriarch even had to make this request. Giving our people places of worship and food should just be something we all do.
The Lemongate
06-05-2008, 04:09
Though we all agree about our faith, not everyone is as proactive as you or I in upholding it, Comes. We might have certain theological differences, but at least, I believe we can agree on the importance of the Church.
The Patriarch was right in reminding every senator of our obligations to the Church.
Privateerkev
06-05-2008, 04:10
Yes but he shouldn't have to remind us. This is something that we should have been focusing on anyways.
So while I am glad the Patriarch spoke out, I wish we never put him in the position where he felt he had to speak out.
The Lemongate
06-05-2008, 04:23
True, I have to agree.
pevergreen
06-05-2008, 05:12
Michail rises
"Friends, Oaths will be sworn in time, I am sure. There has been a rather large disruption in the Magnaura, let us give some time to restoring order"
OverKnight
06-05-2008, 06:34
Aleksios leans forward and speaks quietly from the Throne.
Any Senator who seizes Durazzo without my permission will be denied any sort of command during my term as Logothetes as well as my personal ire.
I admire the passion that many of the Senators possess. However, such energy needs to be focused. I will not allow one person's outlaw action to endanger the good of the Empire.
Also, my name has been dragged into various debates within this body. If you have an argument to make, please do so without mentioning my supposed wishes.
The matter of who will take Durazzo is still open, I have not made my decision. Once the campaign season begins, and I have a clearer idea of our resources, the choice will be made.
Kosmas stands, bowing deeply to the Basileus before addressing the Senate.
I share the sadness Comes Ksanthopoulos and Strator Anastasios have at the spiritual state of the Emprie when such a proclamation by the Patriarch is necessary.
Now that the Basileus has spoken, I will instruct all of my House members to obey his command concerning the village of Durazzo.
pevergreen
06-05-2008, 08:22
Michail rises, a slight smile on his mouth
"In this announcement, it seems as though Edict 1.7 is now useless, as half of it is disallowed by the Basileus. Perhaps the Edict should be amended...Yes, I think so:
Edict 1.7a: The Basileus shall attempt to conquer Arta using any combination of the Senators Michail, Efstratios and Anastasios and support troops.
Hopefully, if passed, this will provide a home to the house of the Tapeki.
My thanks Senators."
I second Edict 1.7a, as it seems a more than reasonable request for a House yet to gain land. I might advise Strator Michail to revise it to limit the options for taking Arta to himself of Efstrafios, however, as Anastasios remains a member of the House of Asteri. :bow:
_Tristan_
06-05-2008, 08:43
Edict 1.7a: The Basileus shall attempt to conquer Arta using any combination of the Senators Michail, Efstratios and Anastasios and support troops.
Hopefully, if passed, this will provide a home to the house of the Tapeki.
I will second Edict 1.7a, just to silence who accuse me of wanting to deprive any House of acquiring lands.
pevergreen
06-05-2008, 08:45
Michail hears Kosmas' words and has a slight shocked expression on his face.
"I am unaware of this! I shall talk to Anastasios at once! Regardless, Anastasios is a good friend, as is the House of Asteri."
Michail leaves the Magnaura, intent on finding Anastasios.
Askthepizzaguy
06-05-2008, 08:47
I second edict 1.7a, and now I retire for the evening gentlemen. I have sustained massive headwounds that require treatment.
Savvas stands up, his face showing no emotion.
I am strongly opposed to Edict 1.7 (a).
I will not support this blatant quest for personal glory from the Senators Michail, Efstratios and Anastasios.
This is outrageous.
What is wrong with you, my fellow Senators? This is the second time I see such a selfish and opportunistic proposition of an Edict. I am utterly disgusted by the attitude displayed here in the Magnaura.
I demand this Edict to be withdrawn.
Savvas sits back down and stares at Michail.
_Tristan_
06-05-2008, 08:57
Strator Savvas, I understand your point.
It is the same logic which drove me to rewrite my Edict to strike my name from it and leave the opportunity to the Basileos to choose the most suitable general for the task.
I would prefer that said Edict was redrafted along the same lines though I understand our fellow Senators need for a seat for their House, hence my support to their Edict.
My support will remain should it be redrafted along these lines.
Some other House may have some vested interest in capturing Arta, leading to another race to catch this new prize, though the matter of Durazzo is still unresolved.
Ignoramus
06-05-2008, 08:57
Ioannis Komnenos stands up after Strator Savvas sits down.
Strator Savvas speaks truly, this is but a self-serving edict, not one seeking to help the empire.
I am disappointed that the ambition of these two generals is greater than their love of the empire.
The Caesar angrily resumes his seat.
At the Caesar's statement, Kosmas begins to drum his fingers nervously on the table in front of him. He had thought the Edict harmless enough, presenting an unestablished House with a chance to gain their first settlement. Now even the Caesar opposed it. Perhaps he supported it too hastily. Ah well, what was done was done, and his second could not be taken back.
pevergreen
06-05-2008, 09:07
"Gentlemen, Gentlemen. I have said it and I say it again. I speak for the good of the Empire! My actions are for her. I merely requested a home province for my house! Is that too much to ask! The Order fights for their right to take Antioch, but that will go to them. If you take it to that level, Senators, is not every person looking to take land for themselves? In naming three Senators, I have simply named three who have expressed their desire to travel in that direction, now that Durazzo is off limits. Only Efstratios is in my House. Think about my actions as a whole Senators, and you may see the truth. I merely hope that my Saracen friend reappears soon."
Michail sits down, once more, no emotion on his face.
Askthepizzaguy
06-05-2008, 09:13
On his way out the door, Efstratios shakes his head.
Truly, after the bloody stench some made about a God-forsaken villiage, did you seriously not see this coming?
Apparently it's treason if anyone but certain factions declare their intentions to serve the Empire via expansion and declaring the need for a place of residence.
The haves wish to take away any hope from the have-nots from advancing. Thr blatant partisanship and greed of it all... such a shame. But no longer unexpected in this senate.
"Gentlemen, Gentlemen. I have said it and I say it again. I speak for the good of the Empire! My actions are for her. I merely requested a home province for my house! Is that too much to ask! The Order fights for their right to take Antioch, but that will go to them. If you take it to that level, Senators, is not every person looking to take land for themselves? In naming three Senators, I have simply named three who have expressed their desire to travel in that direction, now that Durazzo is off limits. Only Efstratios is in my House. Think about my actions as a whole Senators, and you may see the truth. I merely hope that my Saracen friend reappears soon."
Michail sits down, once more, no emotion on his face.
Once your "House" has proven its' loyalty to the Empire and the Basileus, I am sure the Basileus will grant you some troops to conquer a settlement of your choice. After all, don't we all know him as a fair and just ruler?
With Edict 1.7 you are demanding the Emperor to let you conquer the settlement of your choice. Nobody should give the Basileus orders like that, and certainly not one of the lesser Houses! One might even think that you are delibaretely insulting the Emperor and his authority!
Also, the Senate is a legislative body that works in the interests of the Empire as a whole, it should not be an instrument for one particular "House" to serve its' own, selfish desires.
Your behaviour is regrettable and I am deeply disappointed by it.
Savvas shakes his head and sits down.
Ituralde
06-05-2008, 09:34
"Antioch, Durazzo, Arta, what's next? An Edict about bloody Canakkale? Smyrna perhaps? We have not conquered anything yet and already you start haggling over conquered territories as though this were some kind of bloody market!
This is the Senate of the Roman Empire and we are Senators not bloody fishmongers. Loyal service to our Emperor will see to it that everyone will recieve their due share, according to their bloody services to the Basileus and the Empire!
Don't you remember what led to our current situation, have you not listened? Since Manzikert four nobles have claimed the throne and that battle was only lost, because the generals were more concerned with gaining the crown than with defeating our enemies. Don't make that bloody mistake again! Already you are occupied with in-fighting and rivalries, while we should focus on the true threats that border our Empire right now!"
Scowling at the assembled Senators he turns towards the Basileus.
"Maybe now would be a good time to declare your intentions on our various frontiers, oh great Basileus. So that we can prepare for the coming campaigns against our true enemies instead of spending our powers on petty in-fighting?"
It pleases me to see that there are also intelligent and honorable men among us, who didn't forget the lessons of the past.
Savvas nods respectfully to Senator Pavlos Chrysovergos
Our colleague, Pavlos Chrysovergos is right. We should pay attention to the threats on our borders and I hereby repeat that the most important threat right now are not the Muslims, but the Catholics. We have to prepare ourselves against a possible crusade against our beloved city of Constantinople.
deguerra
06-05-2008, 10:10
Ahem. While I would agree with Savvas ek Militou in principle, I should very much like to hear how he defines a "lesser" House!
Ahem. While I would agree with Savvas ek Militou in principle, I should very much like to hear how he defines a "lesser" House!
A House with no Comes to lead them, without land nor tradition, that accepts clowns among its' ranks and whose meetings are held in a comon Inn.
deguerra
06-05-2008, 10:26
Well, Strator, while I will reserve such judgment to people obviously better qualified to give it than my lowly self, I would say that, given the current situation, I would find it undesirable to judge a House on its having a Comes to lead it or similar material things. With time, they may apply, but it is a bit early, no? Furthermore, I must wonder at your judging House Tepaki over not having land and a Comes, while at the same time so vehemently, albeit correctly, opposing their edict of acquiring such land.
It is clear that Strator Savvas is motivated for personal glory as well. Is it not true that your house claimed Arta already? It is also highly likely that it was promised to you, thus why you are upset. The House of Tepaki has my support, every House needs land and yours, Savvas, already has some.
Ituralde
06-05-2008, 10:37
Pavlos shakes his head and watches the proceedings with a dsigruntled expression on his face.
Well, Strator, while I will reserve such judgment to people obviously better qualified to give it than my lowly self, I would say that, given the current situation, I would find it undesirable to judge a House on its having a Comes to lead it or similar material things. With time, they may apply, but it is a bit early, no? Furthermore, I must wonder at your judging House Tepaki over not having land and a Comes, while at the same time so vehemently, albeit correctly, opposing their edict of acquiring such land.
I am not opposed to House Tepaki acquiring some land some day, but Edict 1.7 is disrespectful towards the Basileus for the reasons I stated before.
I would have expected a more humble attitude from a homeless House...
The Emperor is a fair and just ruler and even House Tepaki should know that. If House Tepaki shows its' loyalty and is worthy of having a territory of their own, then the Emperor will certainly grant them the means to obtain such territory.
One can only hope that with more experience, the attitude of House Tepaki will grow and that they will prove themselves to be true Romans.
It is clear that Strator Savvas is motivated for personal glory as well. Is it not true that your house claimed Arta already? It is also highly likely that it was promised to you, thus why you are upset. The House of Tepaki has my support, every House needs land and yours, Savvas, already has some.
I hereby swear by the Allmighty Lord himself, that I never claimed a territory for myself and I never asked the Emperor to be given a certain settlement. This is the truth and nothing but the truth. May my eternal soul be damned if this would be a lie.
I hope this takes away all your doubts, my dear Colleague?
pevergreen
06-05-2008, 10:45
"Such a bad attitude from one who until recently wished to be among my ranks. You have a few incidents behind you in your already short career Savvas. I chose an inn as the headquarters for my house as it is a common place area, one which all are equal in. Apparently the Senate is not the same. My edict has no disrespect intended towards the Basileus, but if he takes some, I am happy to do penance."
Looking tired from many sleepless nights and placing various papers to one side young Nevoulos ek Philadelphias nervously lets out a yelp of anguish as one of the scrolls falls down on his foot.
Cursing to himself he has been half listening to the current discussion with interest, as he has remianed undecided on his vote for the discussed Edict 1.7a).
He adjusts his robes appropriately and standing behind Ioannis, Hypatios and Kommos he shouts rather loudly...
I to will openly support the House of Tapeki in their quest for land as outlined by edict 1.7a)
With that breif statement over with he sits down and wonders aloud when the edicts will come to vote - he is eager to escape the stress of the senate
deguerra
06-05-2008, 10:53
I accept Savvas ek Militou's answer as it was given. I too am a little wary of the wording of Edict 1.7a, and for the same reason as him. It was a good discussion, Strator. Perhaps I can buy you a drink sometime?
The mask drops and Savvas looks at Michail with sincere affection.
Michail, my dear friend. Please, for your own good, withdraw your Edict.
I'll repeat the words of our Caesar:
Ioannis Komnenos stands up after Strator Savvas sits down.
Strator Savvas speaks truly, this is but a self-serving edict, not one seeking to help the empire.
I am disappointed that the ambition of these two generals is greater than their love of the empire.
The Caesar angrily resumes his seat.
The Caesar is the son of our Basileus, ergo it has to be assumed that your Edict highly displeases our Emperor.
It is not wise for House Tapeki to oppose the Basileus, my dear friend.
Withdraw your Edict, apologise to the Caesar and repeat your oath of fealthy to the Basileus. Act as a true Roman, pay attention to the bigger picture, the overall good of our Empire and the serious threats at our borders, and our just ruler will certainly reward his loyal Sons of Rome with more then just one settlement.
The most important thing at hand right now is the preservation of our Empire against the Catholic threats.
I accept Savvas ek Militou's answer as it was given. I too am a little wary of the wording of Edict 1.7a, and for the same reason as him. It was a good discussion, Strator. Perhaps I can buy you a drink sometime?
I would be honored OOC: ~:cheers:
The Ceasar may be the son of the Basileus but he is not the Basileus. Should the emperor voice an opinion on the matter then he could go either way, gaining land for the Empire is not a quest personal glory.
pevergreen
06-05-2008, 11:06
"Are you suggesting father and son are the same?
Now my dear Savvas, I can only speak of my own childhood, but my views are not my fathers.
If you wish to prepare for a crusade, then we not only need territories, but a buffer line between. Arta gives us that.
I'm sorry to say I can not take Savvas at his word anymore. His offer to me involving treachery to his own house has made me doubt his every word.
I live and die for the Emperor, Savvas. Are you willing to?"
Ignoramus
06-05-2008, 11:16
At the mention of his father, Ioannis hastily stands up.
Strator Savvas misunderstands me. I speak independently of my father, just as my father speaks independently of me. I do not know what my father thinks of that edict, but I am sure if he desires it to be made known he he will do so.
The Caesar resumes his seat.
"Are you suggesting father and son are the same?
Now my dear Savvas, I can only speak of my own childhood, but my views are not my fathers.
If you wish to prepare for a crusade, then we not only need territories, but a buffer line between. Arta gives us that.
I'm sorry to say I can not take Savvas at his word anymore. His offer to me involving treachery to his own house has made me doubt his every word.
I live and die for the Emperor, Savvas. Are you willing to?"
Savvas looks very disappointed.
You will remember that I refused to join your petty organisation of the "Silver Hawks".
pevergreen
06-05-2008, 11:29
"I refer not to my previous idea of a group before a house but the offer you made to me and another Senator, who may or may not want to reveal himself, about staying on as a spy in your house until such time as you could leave and join me! I want no spies Savvas! Even so, I still feel pity for you. If you would care to pass me a private note, detailing a plausible reason as to why I should withdraw Edict 1.7a, and your actions, I may publicly apologise. Until then, I shall not listen or respond to any points you make."
EDIT:
If you didnt read, my house's name is in greek for "Silver Hawk"
I am not denying you the right to have your own territory, but you shouldn't force the Emperor to give you the means to let you conquer the territory of your choice.
It's simply not done. When the time has come, the Emperor shall grant you the necessary means to take a settlement. There's no need pushing him with legislation that seems to be created for your own personal interests. The Senate is not meant for the creation of such legislation.
I don't speak Greek :shrug:
And as for you absurd accusations...
Savvas sighs
pevergreen
06-05-2008, 12:00
I dont read greek either, It just makes it look cool. Im having fun, you?
The Lemongate
06-05-2008, 15:01
Anastasios looks up from a map of Italy he was consulting.
Though I fully support Michail Arianitis in his quest to establish his House and respectfully hope that the Basileos will chose him and his allies for the job, I must insist at least my name be removed from the edict. I would also suggest that his retainer and him remove their names from the edict as well. It was one of my main points of contentions with Senator Tagaris, and though he and I didn’t manage to come to a perfect accord, his rewording at least made the minimal effort of removing any partisanship from his edict. Then again, seeing the useless politicking going on here, I don’t blame my friend Michail from wanting to make sure he would have land to establish himself. Maybe making an arrangement with the Basileos would ease the process however.
Askthepizzaguy
06-05-2008, 16:00
Efstratios returns, this time in the proper attire deemed fit for a Senator.
Anastasios, that would seem reasonable.
If I might attempt to understand my political opponents in this debate, their point of contention is not that my house expands, but that the Basileos will be "forced" to accept expansion at our demand.
I would be willing to see my name and others removed from the edict, so long as the other houses would kindly make a gentleman's agreement to declare which provinces they seek to claim for the emperor so we can all expand without stepping on one another's toes, and actually cooperate as brothers for the good of the Empire.
My house seeks to claim the settlement indicated in edict 1.7a. Does anyone have any just cause to dispute that claim?
Also, it would be fair if all houses made a list of territorial claims, that we might discuss them honourably instead of resorting to this petty bickering which denigrates the august body assembled here today.
Would that we do this, my faith in the deliberative process might be restored, and we all might be blessed and multiply our holdings for the Empire.
Would the other houses understand that the Silver Hawks perhaps do not even require the specific settlements here in question, and that if they might cooperate in our taking of the settlement, and we expand further elsewhere, they might even be able to negotiate for the settlement in question? The point is cooperation.
I'm sure that we would wish to have contiguous territories, so it makes sense that down the road certain houses would wish to trade their land titles. Or am I being naive in my assumption that diplomacy and cooperation can win the day here?
The Lemongate
06-05-2008, 16:30
My friend, Monomachos, your suggestions make much sense. I am not sure, however, if everyone present is ready to be so open about their aims as some of us have been.
Askthepizzaguy
06-05-2008, 17:03
MY point is that none of us can afford to be such rivals at this point in our history. No one here even holds more than a single province, I believe. So none of the houses are all that mighty.
We need to act as one nation if we are to survive. Or we can squabble until the Catholics put us out of our misery and the Turks turn Constantinople into a center of Islamic thought. It's your choice, Senators.
I for one don't want to see the Roman empire fall.
Wise words, at least coming from a clown they are, Hypatios smiles to show he is joking, I fail to understand how people are seeing this as personal glory. If they are truly loyal to the Empire before themselves then they will not care who the settlement falls to, so long as they are from this Empire. That is my thinking on the matter and if we are to be successful then we all need to think this way, lest our own bickering be what is keeping us from becoming strong rather than bickering with other nations!
*The Protoasecretes stands and stamps his foot loudly on the stone floor.*
The time for proposing legislation has now passed! Voting will begin shortly. There will be a two day period allocated for voting. Voting will end at 3:30pm EST on Saturday, June 7th.
Having cast his votes a weary looking Nevoulas ek Philadelphios looks forward to his ride back to Athens. It has been a trying week for the young nobleman and he longs for the simpler joys of campaigning.
He turns at the entrance and once more looks on the splendour of the place and relives some of the heated debates in his mind. Reflecting that it was a huge learning experience he wonders if he shall live to see another one of to see another Magnaura...
Agggggh
Nevoulas clamps a hand over his mouth and notices none have paid him too much bother, he rushes out the door and towards his lodgings where he will pack and quickly make his way out of Constinantinople perhaps for the last time...
_Tristan_
06-12-2008, 11:13
A messenger enters the halls of the Magnaura, unrolling a parchment.
Basileos,
Noble Lords of the Empire,
Being true to his word, Methodios Tagaris wishes it to be known that he surrenders the village of Dyrrakhion to the rule of our benevolent Basileos.
He proposes to remain in the town for the once until a garrison can be provided and act as his governor for the time being.
For the greatness of our Empire,
Signed Strator Tagaris
The messenger the bows and exits.
Correct me if I am wrong but did the edict not state that the settlement could only be taken with the Emperor's permission? Handing it over to him now hardly excuses this disobedience.
_Tristan_
06-12-2008, 12:47
Just as he was making his exit the messenger hears Mchonios words
Stand corrected then my Lord because Strator Tagaris received permission for such a capture if you had checked our Megas' reports.
Excellent, I do love it when I am corrected, thank you for clearing that up for me.
OverKnight
06-23-2008, 05:16
A pair of Varangians in full mail open the doors to the Chamber and take up flanking positions by it. The Basileus strides in behind them, armed and with a travel stained purple cloak the only mark of his rank. Marching to the middle of the room, he addresses the Senators.
I congratulate the Senate on our recent victories. The reclamation of the Empire proceeds at a much faster pace then I anticipated. Rebels have been put down and settlements lost to us have been restored to their rightful place. There is much to celebrate.
Aleksios pauses, his gaze sweeping the chamber.
However, we must temper this head-long rush for land with restraint. We have now plucked the lowest hanging fruits, further conquest and holding what we have reclaimed will present difficulties. The bloody massacres at Belgrade and, to a lesser extent, Antioch, along with the rioting at Zagreb, show the challenges we will face in the future. Lands outside the sway of the true faith will resent our restored sovreignty. As our frontier expands, these new conquests will be further away from our heartland, making supplies and soldier more difficult to bring to the front or garrison restive settlements. We have also pushed out our borders next to more organized kingdoms rather than rebels playing petty despots. They will present more of a challenge.
In order to hold our new lands and prepare for further expansion, I believe the Empire needs to prioritize pacification, proselytization and construction over conquest for now. Roads must be built to connect the frontier to the core of the Empire. Churches must be built and priests recruited to convert heathens and schismatics. Our castles must start building stables, bowyers and barracks so we can have proper armies. Trade must be emphasized so that we can fund further expansion.
I know the temptation exists to keep up a frenetic pace of expansion, to keep going forward and let pillage and blood fuel a never-ending cycle of conquest. It is even possible that we could do so. Yet, there is more to the restoration of the Empire than just conquest or settling old scores, though that is a part. Our task is to bring Roman civilization, Roman order, Roman prosperity and Roman peace back to the blighted places of the earth that so badly need it. We must bring the light of Orthodox Christianity back to those who have shunned it. We may conquer by the sword, but we will rule with justice, as exemplified by Marcus Aurelius and Justinian the Great. In the places we reclaim we will build new monuments, new churches and new roads, for not only were our ancestors the greatest soldiers on earth, but the best builders as well.
This is our task, this is what we must restore. Not just in taking back land, but in rebuilding a way of life: A new Empire, a new Pax Romana. I will not live to see it completed, but I ask for the help of the Senate in laying the foundations.
Askthepizzaguy
06-24-2008, 20:04
Efstratios Monomachos marches back into the Senate, dressed for war.
Great Emperor, I speak on behalf of the House of the Tepaki. My feudal lord seeks the settlement of Bari, and I would seek permission from your grace to obtain passage via ship across the sea to take this settlement for the glory of the empire.
I will gladly halt expansion for the Empire if that is your bidding, of course. We of the Tepaki have restrained ourselves from seeking to claim Ragusa from the Venetians, because war with the Italians is not your wish at this time.
I would thank Strator Methodios Tagaris for his conquest of Durazzo on behalf of the empire, and the Emperor for assigning that settlement to the Tepaki who were without land.
My request on behalf of our house is simple, we seek Bari and Ragusa (at some future date) for the glory of the emperor, and for my lord Michail Arianitis. Whether these settlements fall immediately or at some later date, it matters not. With the Fall of Bari, we would be most pleased to sit tight and await further instruction from the Emperor in matters of the west.
So long as our humble house is not forgotten in the midst of the greater matters of the Empire, we of the Tepaki are keen on patience. If it serves the interests of my lord and my emperor, I am willing to wait.
In the meantime, I was wondering if anyone had seen a fair and noble lady at the hippodrome... I must confess I find myself most distracted by her. She was seated with the Royal family, and left before I had a chance to meet her. Before I travel off to Bari, I would like to learn her name...
I formally petition the Senate and the Emperor for one unit of garrison infantry and passage to Bari to claim it in the name of the Empire.
OverKnight
06-24-2008, 23:26
After another season of campaigning the Basileus returns.
Senator Monomachos, Bari is now a Venetian settlement. Any move against it would trigger a war with Venice. Such an important decision should wait until the next Senate Session.
Ituralde
06-25-2008, 13:23
I report the town of Sinop to be back under Imperial control!
I congratulate my fellow generals to their swift successes in reestablishing the boundaries of the Empire! It seems these rebels are easily succumbed, but our real enemies are already lying beyond. It could have been a mere matter of days before the Turks had lain their heathen hands on Sinop! Not long and our brethern there would have to live under some Sultan or whatever they call themselves! Our Christian brothers yearn for the protection of our Patriarch and with reconquest an important step his done, but we should not forget those who do not enjoy the benefits of living in our Empire. As much has the faithful struggle near Sofia, Antioch or even Sinop, they struggle even more in the central parts of Anatolia not yet under our control.
That's why sending Priests to Caesarea was so important and this body agreed with me. I'm sorry to see that instead Priests are sent off to many different areas, ignoring the advice of this body! If we ever hope to reconquer Anatolia we must help protect our faith, or we will just find ourselves ruling an Empire filled with heathen fanatics, ready to betray us to the next Mullah that comes along!
OverKnight
06-25-2008, 13:39
Aleksios responds:
Congratulations on retaking Sinop, Senator Chrysovergos. Given time we will restore all of Anatolia to the Empire.
Before we begin missionary work beyond our borders we must bolster the strength of the true faith in territories already reclaimed. Otherwise we will be plagued with revolts.
However, with so many churches being rebuilt within the Empire we will soon be able to do both.
8 servants enter the Magnaura. They are carrying four big barrels.
After the barrels have been put down, one of the servants takes a parchment out of his sleeve and starts to read:
" Dear Basileus,
" Dear Caesar,
" Esteemed Colleagues,
"
" Life in Arta is good. The sun is shining, the beach is near, the women are beautiful and the wine
" is of an outstanding quality.
" The next Senate session is nearby. All the talking will make us thirsty. Because I'm concerned
" about the throats of the noblest inhabitants of the Empire, I decided to send to you four
" barrels of this fine wine they produce here in Arta.
" Feel free to take a drink at my expenses whenever you feel like it, but leave something for me,
" since I'll be with you soon.
" Yours truly,
" Savvas ek Militou.
Ituralde
06-25-2008, 14:34
Pavlos walks up to one of the barrels, takes a wine goblet standing nearby and drowns it in the wine. Lifting the now filled cup, wine dripping from his hand he raises it
To Comes ek Militou!
pevergreen
06-25-2008, 15:17
Michail enters the Magnaura once more, clothed in his ever present black robe and silver brooch.
In the years past he seems to have gained only two things, some dust and patience.
Askthepizzaguy
06-25-2008, 22:14
Efstratios Monomachos rises and speaks:
My lords, with Venetian encroachment on what is rightfully Byzantine lands, and with their holding of Iraklion, I propose that the West be mobilized in the near future to deal with this immediate threat.
The House Tepaki requests that the Western houses assemble what forces they can spare into one coalition army, and that some few ships be made available for transport purposes.
Iraklion, Bari, and Ragusa are our top priorities in the West, and we should act as such. The House Tepaki fully endorses such a plan, and from what I hear, other western houses do as well, but I will allow them to speak for themselves.
We do not wish all-out war against all Catholics, but Venice is a real and imminent threat. Do we wish to be the first to be struck, or do we wish to strike first?
I request that all Senators who support arming for defense against venetian encroachment to please make their voices heard, and all those Senators who support a more hawkish first-strike policy to also rise and make their opinions heard. I ask those Senators who support the pacifistic ideal of appeasement and waiting for the invasion to appear at our doorstep to abstain from voting, or reconsider their position.
The empire as a whole must rebuild, but the West must be ready for an invasion, either we prepare to defend against one, or we must prepare one of our own. I say that offense is the best defense.
Who stands with me?
deguerra
06-25-2008, 23:56
With all due respect, Efstratios, you talk nonsense.
I am no friend of the Venetians, who have, as you say, taken Roman lands and the past when we were weak.
But, firstly, their current threat is hardly greater than that of the Sultanate of Rum, whose armies are constantly reported within Roman lands, and who still hold a much greater amount of rightfully Roman territory. It is my opinion that this threat is much greater than anything Venice can throw at us.
Secondly, however, it is obvious that your intent is at least partially the expansion of your house. Which is a fine and noble cause. To call Strators who might oppose such a move pacifists and appeasers, however, is absurd and outlines the populist undertones of your little speech.
This is the Senate of the Roman Empire. We are concerned with honest and sincere, critical and open discussion. If you want to promulgate populist propaganda, I suggest you turn your attention to the masses of Konstantinopolis, or better yet, those of your native Durazzo.
Askthepizzaguy
06-26-2008, 00:38
Efstratios makes note of Ioannis' comments.
I could do without the condescension, sir. You can maintain your own opinion without belittling mine.
We will see how much of a threat the Venetians are in due time. With our claims to Zagreb and Durazzo, it is only a question of when the Venetians will assault us, not if.
the Senator takes his seat, looking mildly annoyed.
BananaBob
06-26-2008, 01:05
With all due respect, Efstratios, Ioannis Kalameteros point is a solid one. While I would like to congratulate everyone on the conquest of Greece and the Balkens, our great empire is still very weak on its eastern front. I think it should be the first priority of the next term, eastern expansion and development to combat and contain the muslim forces.
Askthepizzaguy
06-26-2008, 01:19
Nathanail ek Korinthou, I agree that the empire has a threat to the far east. I will even agree that the Turks make for a more worthy target than our fellow Christians to the West. I would even agree to put Western expansion on hold until we have secured the east.
My only points were, if we do not do something immediately to counter a possible Venetian or Sicilian landfall with their main forces, we might as well give our newfound conquests back to the rebels.
And also that Ioannis could have phrased his opinions in a more respectful manner. Simply adding the words "with all due respect" does not necessarily mean that what follows is respectful.
My wishes for the empire, if anyone cares to hear them, are that the empire as a whole is safe, secure, and expanding; that all the houses continue to prosper, that the good fortune of some may be had by all; that the Emperor need not worry about further territorial losses to the Catholics, rebels, or Muslims during his reign or any other.
It is only prudent that the Western houses work together to repel any possible Venetian threat, or Sicilian threat. Whether that be defensively or offensively, I care not. But if we stand around congratulating ourselves at our newfound conquests and make no effort to defend them, then we have no right to call ourselves an empire. I am open to alternative strategies for defending our Western frontier, but none have been proposed. And so, with humility, and perhaps a bit of enthusiasm, I do propose that we do something about the Italians, whether it be preparation alone, or more aggressive action, anything is better than nothing.
Gentlemen, perhaps my exuberance is overshadowing the soundness of my plan. Leaving an entire western frontier undefended, or defended with scattered forces, is unwise. The West should formulate a plan. If mine is undesirable, I implore you all to propose a counter-plan.
As for matters east, it would tickle me beyond words to see the end of the Turkish Sultanate. Let them all perish by the hands of good Byzantine men. I have no qualms about eastern expansion, or prioritizing the east. Let us not forget about the west, and let us not be caught unprepared by our Catholic "friends", lest more evil befall our mighty empire.
deguerra
06-26-2008, 01:35
Efstratios your dedication to the Empire is not in doubt, nor is the soundness of your opinion that our holdings in the West must be defended. I respect and indeed agree wholeheartedly with these points.
What i do doubt is that the best strategy in the West is some sort of pre-emptive strike and that the best strategy to win over Strators is by drawing a line in the sand and labeling those not of your opinion as cowards. That is all.
Askthepizzaguy
06-26-2008, 01:49
Those who would not support either an aggressive defense or an offensive, and offer no counter-proposals of their own, are indeed cowards. However, you were the first to use that term, not I.
I have to question why you would put such words in my mouth. I would think the label "pacifist" does indeed apply to those who would neither strike first nor prepare adequate defenses. Is that an unfair label?
I have no wish to quibble with you over my phrasing, especially if you seem unclear of what my phrasing actually was. I may be combative over important issues, but this particular discussion is pointless. Since we seem to agree on the main issues, why are we still talking?
Let's draw up a plan and put it into action. I would ask that the floor be opened to discuss our actual defense plans. My suggestion, an assault against the fringe settlements of the Venetian Republic, may well be rejected, as it would seem to go against the Emperor's decree and it would be unpopular. However, my other suggestion, an active defense, hasn't even truly been discussed. I feel it's the best option.
deguerra
06-26-2008, 01:59
The reason I began this rather pointless discussion, is because I dislike attempts at making boxes and sorting Strator's opinions into them, most especially when one such box is intentionally belittled, if not in exact words then by implication.
As for your thoughts on an "active defence" I would be most interseted in hearing them.
Ignoramus
06-26-2008, 02:35
Ioannis Komnenos, having recently made the short journey across from Nicaea, rises to speak.
"I must say that I am suprised with the words of Efstratios Monomachos. Surely he must know that the Venetians have been longtime allies of the empire in the past, and though I grant that the scheming merchants may not always be sincere in their dealings, there is no need to start a blatant war of aggression against them. Such an act would bring the whole western Christendom down upon our heads.
However, Strator Kalameteros speaks more soundly. The Turks have taken from the empire half its land, not to mention the fact that these heathen persecute the Christians in their realms most cruelly. A well organised offensive, under sound leadership, could well win back some of the land lost at Manzikert.
Ioannis sits down.
pevergreen
06-26-2008, 03:09
Michail has been following the discussion intently, knowing that this will affect his future.
"My Lords! Let us not insult each other, such attacks against each other get us nothing, while only slowing us down. It is common knowledge that war with Venice will come, it is only a matter of time. For now, I am content to let the Basileus give his opinion on what is the pressing concern. That is what I shall bow to. We are all friends here remember. Can we not keep it that way?"
Michail sits, absently cleaning a nail with a dagger
_Tristan_
06-26-2008, 09:59
My Lords and fellow Senators,
Both our Caesar and Senator Kalameteros on one side and Senator Monomachos argue strong points.
While the Turks commit everyday atrocities against our fellow Christians let us remember the defeat we suffered at Manzikert. We stand disorganized, our forces are at their lowest, while the Turkish enemy has grown while we faltered.
On the other side, the Venetians and Normans of Sicily hold sway over lands that are historically ours. Our Greek ancestors must turn around in their graves from seeing the proud and fair isle of Kretos in the hands of these money-grubbing merchants. They have even dared claim lands in the Balkans that were ours for centuries. Do not be fooled by pretense. It were no mere rebels that controlled Dyrrakhion but men in the pay of the Italians.
Now I do not see why a two-front war cannot be waged. Yes, our tagmata is only a shadow of what it once was. But we have generals of valour as has been proven by the swift conquests of Scopia, Sofia, Bucharest, Dardanellia, Arta, Smyrna and Rhodes. All this crowned by the capture of the mighty city of Antioch, seat of the one of the Patriarch.
Now that Bucharest has fallen and with Iasi sure to fall soon, with strong alliances with our northern neighbours securing that flank, we can redistribute our forces east and west wage that two-front war.
I want Anatolikon back into Byzantine hands. This land is our land. But let us not forget who we are : Romans !!
Our birthplace lies on the other side of the Adriatic, the lands that saw the birth of Romulus and Remus...
Rome, city of wonders, now home to the man who would seek to impose his faith upon the world...
Do not misunderstand me... I seek no war with Rome and the Catholics, though we should be more wary of them. there are rumours of a Crusade being called by the Catholic Patriarch, their Pope, that will unleash hordes of fanatics on the Holy Lands but their route will take them through our lands and I fear the depredations they may cause.
I cannot envision the Italians sitting still while we deprive them of worthy provinces in the Balkans, therefore I, as Monomachos, think we should prepare and redeploy our forces in that direction.
At this time, we have two royal armies. One is en route to reclaim one more of our Anatolikon provinces (and I wish them well...) while the other has just finished its campaign under our Basileos' orders, securing our northern border.
I know even of a large contingent of men sitting idly in Scopia.
While I do not seek to order our Basileos as to how to use his forces, nor could I demand of Comes Ampelas to relinquish command of the men of Scopia, these men could be sent marching west, either to deter any attacks of the Italians or even launch an assault should they gather forces.
Our treasury while not overflowing has largely benefited from the gold plundered from Antioch (though I regret this even happened). Taxes are flowing in from our reclaimed provinces... Let us put these funds to good use and train some more men both east and west.
Let us show our enemies our strength so they do not dare attack us... Then when the time is ripe and our strength has grown to the point where we can cut a bloody gash to our enemies' throats, let us strike swiftly...
Italy and Anatolikon were ours... They shall be once again if we stand united rather than fight for power almong the Houses. This is what almost brought our downfall... Do you want to replay the errors of the past ?
Savvas enters the Magnaura and walks directly to the barrels of wine. He fills a goblet and raises it.
"To the Basileus, to the Caesar and to the Empire!"
Savvas drinks. He puts down the emtpy goblet and faces the assembled senators.
"Dear Senators, I would like to congratulate all of you on your achievements during the last campaign. At this pace, I think that one day the Roman Empire will re-gain its' former strength. Today, I am proud to be a Roman!"
Savvas pauzes and looks around him.
"But, as our esteemed colleague Efstratios has said, we shouldn't rest. Our Empire still faces threats and as we grow larger, we will also gain more enemies. Reinforcing our borders might be a good strategy indeed. And allthough the Westerners call themselves Christians, we shouldn't fool ourselves. To those barbarians and their Pope we are heathens. And what's worse, they posses what is rightfully ours: Rome. Attacking the West however might result in a united front of the Western nations against our Empire, so we should be well prepared before taking that step. The Caesar also raises a valid point: we should avoid gaining a reputation of backstabbers by attacking longtime allies. On the other hand, I heard rumours about an Italian merchant harassing our Basileus' daughter. A satisfying explanation for this unacceptable behaviour should be acquired...
I suggest that a significant part of the funds of the Empire is used to train a Western army and to strengthen our settlements at the Western frontier.
Maybe the Caesar and the Basileius can continue their conquests to fund the strengthening of our Western frontier?
Thinking on the long term is what we should do here. We won't conquer the world in one day, not even in a decade. The Empire has grown fast over the last few years. I think the time has come to consolidate our borders, rebuild what has been destroyed during our recent victories and prepare for future conquests.
Therefor, I am all for a temporary period of peace."
Savvas turns towards Anastasios Neokaisareitis.
"My dear colleague Anastasios. It is with regret that I heard the rumours about the attrocities comitted at Belgrade. Maybe there was a need for this sort of cruelty, but as a civilised nation we should be above that. Mutilating the corpses of rebel scum is one thing, killing innocent people is a step to far, in my opinion. After all," Savvas smiled, "who is going to pay taxes if we start exterminating our subordinates."
Ituralde
06-26-2008, 10:18
Pavlos clears his throat noisily and looks toward Senator Tagaris, his goblet still in hand he raises it.
I thank you for your well wishes for conquering Sinop, which I did before I came here.
For the other matters, I agree with you that defense in the West and attack in East seems to be the best strategem!
Nevoulas ek Philadelphius has been sitting quietly behind Ioannis Kalemetros. He as ever has been diligently studying parchments and knows the situation in his own house being somewhat in a state of flux he has to be more involved in the next senetorial debating session.
Lifting himself of his bench cautiously he looks at the Basileus somewhat in awe and resolves himself and clears his throat loudly:
I congratulate all on your recent conquests. It is clear our great empire is living and breathing once more.
We must be wary however of overextending ourselves, surely our first priority is to now fortify what we have. I look at our lands and note a couple of issues that i think must be of importance in the coming years.
Firstly on religious matters, I was pleased to see the a much greater piety and education on my return to the mainland, the Orthodox word is clearly easily spreading throughout the homelands. From what i have been told from members of my house and contacts in Anatolia, there have been extraordinary signs of conversion in the western part of this land mass. I hope the good priests that have been employed here can make haste to our northern regions in the area of Sofia, Scopia, Bucherest, Zagreb and Belgrade. These areas from what i have heard are barbaric and need some cleansing. I see the potential for many more priests to be trained and sent in that region to convert to acceptable levels.
Secondly, I note the Order of St. John's successful capture of the city of Antioch. It was an ambitious goal and what went on out there is disturbing to say the least. It remains an isolated outpost that surely must be connected with our holdings in Anatolia. The catch is these settling Turks, who have no real right to be there, and simply must be pushed out. I hope that this will become a priority of the empire in the coming years to go on the offensive in this area and unite our borders properly.
Taking a deep breath Nevoulas who is now beginning to feel more confident about himself continues...
My final concern is the economy of the empire, I believe some of the major settlements we have right now could be reformed into more profitable marketplaces. The Castle at Rhodes for example seems somewhat redundant. Indeed on this parchment here I have noted that currently half of the major settlements that are held by the Byzantine empire. That NINE out of the EIGHTEEN are fortified Castles, which i believe to be somewhat draining. I have been musing with Ioannis about Rhodes and I also wonder about Arta and Sofia and whether the would be better having their military castle like settlements reformed into a more merchantile Town like settlement.
I thank you for listening my fellow noblemen and I ask for your thoughts on what I have raised here for debate as is the nature of this forum.
Nevoulas sits and looks to the ground looking for strength, and then looks up to see if there is any reaction...
OverKnight
06-26-2008, 23:13
Basileus Aleksios reenters the Magnaura in full Imperial finery. He moves to the center of the chamber to address the Senate.
Senators, my term as Megas Logothetes is over. Together we have set the Empire on the path towards restoration. We have seen a rebirth of civitas, military prowess and victory. We have reclaimed rebel territories and begun to rebuild our cities and trade. Future generations will look back and say that this is when the tide began to turn, that this is when the Empire began the long march back towards glory and dominion.
Aleksios pauses, his demeanor becoming more sober.
But we are not there yet. Already I have heard mutterings of new war and of settling old scores. We have made much progress, but the time for attack is not quite here. Let us not get so drunk on victory that we lose sight of reality.
We must integrate our gains into the Empire before we continue. Many of our new conquests are not connected to the Empire by roads, our military buildings are still lacking and our economy might not be able to support a prolonged conflct. Schismatics and heathens still plague the frontiers of the Empire, and we must bring them to the light of the true faith before we war again, or we might find rebellion in our rear as we fight.
I have spoken similar words (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1952963&postcount=345) in this chamber before, yet I feel I must reiterate them. I hope that the Senate and the candidates for Megas Logothetes will heed them during this Session.
Aleksios turns and makes his way to the Throne and sits.
I declare the Second Session of the Senate open.
A crack of a gavel echoes through the chamber.
There will be three days of proposals and debate followed by voting. Candidates for Megas Logothetes must announce themselves and present a manifesto if they wish.
I will start with my own proposal. Though the decision to declare war rests with the Basileus and this body, currently nothing stops a Senator from provoking a war by trespassing on the lands of a neutral or allied power. This is a loophole which must be addressed. Therefore:
Charter Amendment 2.1: (To be added to section 1.4 of the Charter) Players may not move avatars or armies into the territory of a neutral or allied faction without the permission of the Basileus. Nor may they attack the settlements or armies of neutral or allied factions without a declaration of war from the Basileus, a Megas Dux/Exarch or an Edict.
Edit: Senator Nevoulas makes a good point. We should have castles at strategic places, but not so many that we ignore economic development. I urge the Houses to consider if any of their castles, particualrly coastal or undeveloped ones, might better serve as cities. Now would be a good time to make this decision before too many improvements render it moot.
The Lemongate
06-27-2008, 00:21
Savvas turns towards Anastasios Neokaisareitis.
"My dear colleague Anastasios. It is with regret that I heard the rumours about the attrocities comitted at Belgrade. Maybe there was a need for this sort of cruelty, but as a civilised nation we should be above that. Mutilating the corpses of rebel scum is one thing, killing innocent people is a step to far, in my opinion. After all," Savvas smiled, "who is going to pay taxes if we start exterminating our subordinates."
Anastasios who was sitting silently in a shadowy corner of the Senate looks indignantly upon Savvas.
You insult my honor and my faith Senator. There was no torture or cruelty whatsoever imposed upon the Serbian people. Once the rabble their catholic masters amassed was vanquished the settlement was treated as the Lord commands his faithful to treat any enemy. The just were embraced as citizen, the repentant were forgiven and the evildoers were punished. Rebellion is like the sin of divination, and arrogance like the evil of idolatry. Because many among the Serbs had rejected the word of the Lord the wicked among them were chastised. I would have you note that the population of Belgrade is quite content with my fair treatment of them under the imperial banner. I have not heard of any rebellion even though the garrison there is minimal. If it were not for fear of outside intervention, the settlement could even be left without troops and the good people of Belgrade wouldn't even think of revolting. I didn't seek to profit from the spoils of the sword like some... but it is not my place here to judge them. God knows how to be forgiving to those who repent.
As for the current debate on a two-front war, I have always been of the opinion that we should scourge the schismatic catholics from Italia, the Normans first among them. But before any war is undertaken, the Western frontier of the Empire should be reinforced. The Balkans are sorely undermanned. Though we can probably hold our recent conquests with only our faithful retainers, more men should be sent or marshaled in the west to prevent any Frankish or papist aggression before we plan any conquest.
1 Samuel 15:23
For some time, the Senators ignore the Protoasecretes, who is snoring quietly in a corner. Suddenly the old man wakes up with a shout. He looks around in a startled fashion, before wiping the drool from the corner of his mouth.
Ah, ahem. It seems it is about time for another Senate session. I hereby declare the Senate floor open for legislation until 8pm EST on Sunday, June 29th.
With that, the Protoasecretes sinks back down into his slumber, mumbling something about figs.
Cecil XIX
06-27-2008, 07:07
Charter Amendment 2.1: (To be added to section 1.4 of the Charter) Players may not move avatars or armies into the territory of a neutral or allied faction without the permission of the Basileus. Nor may they attack the settlements or armies of neutral or allied factions without a declaration of war from the Basileus, a Megas Dux/Exarch or an Edict.
OOC: Is that an OOC Charter Amendment restricted the abilties of the players to move their avatars, or an IC Amendmet rendering such an act possible, but illegal?
Oh, what wise strategicians we have. Surely the peers of Alexander, Caesar, and Belisarius. For how else might they be so wise to suggest that we should take our militia away from their own cities, and to lengthy campaigns in enemy territory. Surely these butchers, farmers, and blacksmiths, given simple spears and shields, will be more than a match for the horse archers of the Turks and the heavy armor in the West. Though this will only be the case if they are five hundred miles away from their homes, and ten years separated from their wives and children, for they will then be even more motivated to march even further and fight even harder! And at home the cattle will slaughter themselves, the farms sow their own seeds, and the steel swords will will themselves into existence out of cast iron.
The Roman Empire needs a professional army.
Militia cannot be relied upon for a campaign. They do well enough to defend their homes, and they have been used most skilfully to round up and kill brigands. But they are poorly trained and ill-equipped, and in no way prepared to take on a professional western army or the skillful cavalry of the Turks. The priority of the next term must be the development of a proper army, with both light and heavy cavalry, and professional foot troops. The frontier need be reinforced where it must, but an offensive must wait for an offensive army to be assembled. It will take some improvement in infrastructure followed by recruitment, and it will not be an overnight transition. But once done will we be prepared to take the war to the our enemies.
Good and wise Senators, do not be swayed by the emotional cries for glorious battle. Glorious battle against the heathen enemy, heathen enemy who sits in our very own homes. And if we should charge straight at them, we will at once drive them away, for we are so much mightier than they! It all makes for a very lovely argument, if one turns his head away from logic, and those who disagree can be dismissed as cowards. But it is said that history often repeats itself, and if Hannibal was at your doorstep, would you listen to Fabius Maximus, or would you be the one who casts his vote for Varro?
That is not to say that the time for attack will not come. There will be a time, and it will be soon, when we will hit the enemy upon his nose. But you must be careful, wise Senators, that you are not swayed by those yelling the loudest, and though there will be a time when the glorious charge will be the strategically optimal option, we must ensure that we do not act rashly before that time has come. You must be both heroic and smart, though I'm sure there are those among us who will choose only one. Every Scipio has his Varro, and every Zama its Cannae. Think hard about who you want to be, and where you want to fight!
And now that I have run out of Punic War analogies, I best yield the floor. If it is not obvious already, I intend to run for the office Megas Logothetes. I will, if elected garrison the frontier towns and strategically placed forts with the militia we currently have, given the permission of their owners. I will prioritize military construction (but also roads, as we need them), so that by the end of the term we either have, or are prepared to recruit, a large, fully professional army, that will be capable of destroying a mighty empire in the span of a few years, in a campaign that will be reminiscent of Alexander's or Caesar's best. That may not happen until the next term, but if we are prepared sooner, than all the better. But if we should be invaded, then woe to those who invaded us!
Ignoramus
06-27-2008, 09:21
Ioannis Komnenos leaps to his feet as soon as Comes Ampelas yields the floor.
Hear, hear! I am well impressed by the words of Comes Ampelas. I confess that I too, was caught up in the tide of enthusiasm for even more rapid expansion, but I now see the reason of Comes Ampelas reason. Currently, we are subduing rebels, who armed with little more than crude spears and pitchforks. How shall we fare if we come up against a well-equipped Turkish or Hungarian army?
There is, however, one more point that we should raise. Currently we have no effective means of keeping an eye on our borders. If we do not organise watches along our now much increased borders, I fear that we will be open to sudden enemy raids.
Therefor I propose Edict 2.1: Watchtowers shall be constructed along the banks of the river Danube in order to give effective warning of the approach of enemy armies.
Ituralde
06-27-2008, 09:51
With the Senate officially in Session I propose the following Edict.
Edict 2.2: Two Priest are to be sent in the region surrounding Caesarea to help our Orthodox brethern against their Muslim overlords.
Maybe that way at least one will have bloody arrived there by the time we shove those Turkish arses out of there. I also second Edict 2.1.
Still grumbling to himself Pavlos resumes his seat.
AussieGiant
06-27-2008, 14:23
I second edict 2.1
Northnovas
06-27-2008, 15:15
Aleksios ek Ikoniou arrives from Arta and takes his place in the chamber.
I will second Edict2.2
I would also like to add to the current conversation, I have given some consideration to our strategy. I feel that we have taken the important step of bring rebel settlements back into the fold without a war against a neighbouring faction.
I think it would be best to consolidate our holdings and build the infrastructure required to support each other. We need to build our wealth with commerce and trade. It has been mentioned that we need to train our soldiers to a professional level for when the real fighting begins. It would be wised to protect our frontiers with watch towers and build up our border defense.
This should be a time of "peace" and building within and I will support a candidate that will bring this agenda to the table and work on developing our Empire in this upcoming turn.
Aleksios returns to his seat.
_Tristan_
06-27-2008, 16:37
Speech to the Magnaura
Constantinople, 1095
Methodios enters the Magnaura. He is in full armour and accompanied by two of his men (one a burly blond warrior, the other a knight also in full armour though not Byzantine buy his looks). Bowing to the Basileos, he steps to the centre of the hall and begins to address the assembled Senators.
Basileos,
Caesar,
Fellow Senators,
I congratulate all of you for the substantial work you’ve done in opening the way for a new Golden Age for our Empire.
Since that fateful day at Manzikert, our Empire was only a shadow of its former self, gnawed upon from without, wracked with corruption from within.
The accession of our Basileos to the throne and his revival of this ancient forum have given us the means to rise again as the legendary phoenix, by putting an end to internal strife and allowing us to reclaim some of the lands that formerly and rightfully belonged to us.
As previously stated in this hall, upon us is a time of consolidation. Our newly reclaimed lands are rife with religious dissent, heretics abound and some foreign powers may use our weakly defended frontier as a sign of weakness and use it as an excuse to launch an invasion on our soil.
But more than the enemy from without, an enemy I have fought for many years like many of you, I know of a more vicious enemy : the enemy from within. Houses vying for power, generals looking for acclaim, all those are more dangerous threats to our Empire than any army our neighbours could launch against us.
Let us remember Manzikert… Shouldn’t we have won that battle ? Yet, it is only through treachery that we lost it…
I don’t want to see that happen again.
After long consideration, I have decided I will run for the Megas Logothetes’ position in the upcoming election.
I see Comes Ampelas has already made known his candidacy before this august body and I wish him and any other contenders the best of luck.
If elected, I intend to work for the people of our Empire. For we must remember that once, in the past, the sun never set upon the lands under Roman rule. From the shores of the Levant to the barren wastes of northern Brittania, all these lands prospered under the Pax Romana. All these people are our brothers, though they might have forgotten it.
This is why I will proceed to prevent any such thing as the Belgrade Massacre from happening ever again. While I was not there, the reports I received from the city were most disturbing. I consider it a crime against our own people.
People will always try to justify such evil acts on grounds of religious zeal or revenge for past wrongs but as much as I can understand giving a warrior’s death to prisoners of war, I cannot condone the butchery and rape of civilians.
We are Romans… We are the greatest people that live upon the face of the Earth… We must set an example for all to follow and not belittle ourselves by giving way to our baser instincts. We must not let the beast in our hearts and souls prevail upon our actions.
The more mercy we will show our opponent, the less opposition we will find. Be too harsh a master and your dog will bite you, the old saying goes.
Therefore, I will propose Edict 2.3 : No settlement can be exterminated. No Orthodox settlement can be sacked though sacking of Catholic or Muslim-held settlement is authorized.
If elected, I will personally see that this edict is enforced.
Now, I talked earlier of treachery bringing our downfall…
I owe no allegiance to any House. My only allegiance is to the Empire and our Basileos.
I want to work with the Houses to create a climate of trust and understanding. I will not play one House against another, and I hope that any problem between the Houses will be brought to my attention so that I can solve ay difficulties before they escalate into open conflict.
Our Empire has grown under the benevolent guidance of our Basileos. Nevertheless, some Houses have grown more than others but I would not have this be a point of contention between our Houses.
Already, I hear people advocating a push against the Turks. Is it through some will to save our Orthodox brethren from Muslim tyranny or is there another, more secret, aspiration to those cries for vengeance ?
To the same degree, I hear calls (and I know that mine could be considered among them) to reclaim our lands in Italy : the cradle of our civilization… I wish to see our Basileos rule on our Empire from Rome, city of Romulus and Remus, the first Romans ever. If not today, the tomorrow…
I hope those calls are not simply for the furthering of personal goals or the improvement of one House because this may prove to the detriment of the greater good of the Empire.
Thus I hear here and there people calling to consolidate what gains we may have made over the last decade and improve our settlements, improving the lot of our people, increasing their numbers and thus increasing the number of tax payers. I stand with them on that count… I would like nothing better than to see all of our cities and castles grow. But our treasury is still in a dire state though the riches taken from Antioch helped a bit with that.
So how will we fund the training of more men and the construction of barracks, ports and merchant houses without the cash flow that war generates ?
We must keep gaining land and plunder its riches if we are to be able to implement our training and building policies.
Therefore I would propose that we continue our advance on all fronts. In Outremer, the Order should seek to claim some of the other settlements around Antioch. I am sure they are valiant enough to succeed. Antioch is only a beachhead.
I am sure our Caesar and his men and perhaps with the help of house Asteri will be ready to snatch some settlements from the Turks. The further east they are pushed, the more time we will have to prepare to face any attack on our capital and main cities.
Lastly, Houses Tagmata and Tepaki could launch assaults against Venetian holdings, be they Bari, Ragusa or Heraklion. They are the Houses that least benefited from our Empire’ s reclaiming of our former provinces and should be given a chance to level the scale.
I would advocate sending a diplomat to Rome as soon as possible to placate the Catholic Patriarch, their Pope, and have him restrain the Catholic rulers from going against us. I even think the Catholic rulers will thank us for ridding them of the loan-sharks that Venetians are. Need I remind you of the horrendous wooing of the Princess by that Venetian merchant… I have heard many of you profess their love for the princess but has any one of you shown the errors of his way to that man ? His insults to the Princess could be cause enough to ask for reparations from the Venetians and should they refuse, wage war upon them.
This is only the broad lines of my plan of action…I am sure there are Senators among you who will come forward with provinces in an Edict they deem worthy of capture during the next term. I would propose them myself, had I not already proposed an Edict.
My lords, I hope you will make the right choice in the coming election.
Bowing one more time to the Basileos, Methodios regains his seat.
Ituralde
06-27-2008, 21:50
I am only a simple Strategos, but if I understand you correctly you say that we have to build up, if we want to afford a war, and thus you want us to wage war, which we can't afford, in order to afford to build up which we can't afford either? This has to be either the bloody best plan I ever heard or the worst!
Pavlos laughs heartily.
I congratulate you on your initiative though, I feel the itch myself to go against the Muslim heathens as soon as possible. But declaring war is no light thing. We are, as you mentioned, very ill-prepared should our enemies launch counter-attacks. Either way declaring war falls under the privileges of our Basileos and I will follow his will on these matters.
Bowing respectfully towards Aleksios Komnenos he returns to his seat.
Nevoulas ek Philadelphious watches Comes Tagaris with a respectful eye, he is a man he has come to admire and respect with his long story not dissimilar in some ways to his own. With much murmuring following his surprise announcement that he too wishes to run for Megas like the independent Comes Ampeles. Noticing a lull in proceedings Nevoulas steels himself and stands to address the senate:
My fellow Senators, Comes Ampeles and Domestikos Aleksios make good points we must start to work the lands and reform the rebels territories we have gained. Roads need to be built, old castles changed to Towns and standards of professional training must be started and implemented in our army.
However we have many hungry, young senators such as myself who are still eager to fight the enemy on the battlefield. I go back to the original points I made previously (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1955797&postcount=366), I believe with all my heart the current enemy of the Byzantine empire is the Seljuk sultanate. Their movements and observations of our sieges and subsequent captures of the settlements in Smyna and Sinop have been mysterious to say the least. I have intelligence to suggest that the Turkish sultan has been extending his reach eastwards and even now plots to move southwards towards the Levant.
After the magnificent capture of Antioch, I feel that it is now vital that we push forward and connect this great city with the greatest city of them all that we sit in here today. That task requires that we some time soon declare war on the Seljuk Turks. I therefore lobby and name the following edict for all to see here in the Magnaura:
Edict 2.4: After the period of 6 years has passed (1101), any senator may declare war and attack any Seljuk Turkish army or settlement.
Of course, it is usually up to the Basileus or the Megas to authorize such a call. I feel however that the current so called peace with the Turks is a political technicality, the war is in reality still ongoing and never actually ended. The Seljuks might believe us fools into thinking they have conned us into believing their words of ceasefire and trade rights, we know otherwise don't we?
I also know the loud voices of the senators who reside far away in the west may not appreciate this call, I ask you however to consider the numbers of unlanded senators in the east. By my count there is currently only one unlanded senator in the 'west' whereas there are several (Nine by my count) enthusiastic capable senators who reside in the 'east' and can easily contribute towards such a struggle.
Indeed given a small amount of time the three great houses of Kommandaukai, Asteri and the Order could build considerable armies to attack these hardy but i believe beatable Turks.
I for no minute suggest that a note of caution is not needed in the west, the Venetians are untrustworthy , this is a plain fact known within all diplomatic circles. But given our open alliances and diplomatic relations with the Catholic nations of Poland and Hungary, I cannot see the logic in openly attacking Catholic nations at this time.
Nevoulas' voice is beginning to come strained an attendant looking doubtfully, Nevoulas knows what the attendant is worried about and shrugs him off. He looks to the rather sparce looking area of where senators from the Asteri usually sit, and grunts to himself. He now realizes he is standing rather awkwardly with nothing else to say.
Nevoulas turns toward the Basileus bows and says.
I thank you for listening and am interested to hear what you make of my comments.
Ignoramus
06-27-2008, 23:00
Ioannis Komnenos quickly rises to his feat.
"Nevoulas ek Philadelphious, I am afraid that you cannot propose such an edict, as it falls under the category of a charter ammendment. You currently do have enough influence to propose such an edict."
Ioannis resumes his seat.
BananaBob
06-27-2008, 23:18
I second Edict 2.3.
To start, I will Second Edicts 2.2 and Tagaris' own 2.3, as well as Charter Amendment 2.1. I also support Edict 2.1, but it has the required number of seconders. I don't know that I wish to support 2.4, but I believe the Casear has made a mistake, and that it is a perfectly valid Edict. It is within the power of the Senate to declare war through an Ordinary Edict, and 2.4 is a declaration of war with two conditions attached, which are that it must be the year 1101, and that at least one Senator at that time wishes a war. I do not see why the Senate cannot attached conditions to its own edicts.
Now I must say that I am seriously concerned with the strategy that Tagaris' has outlined. It is flawed beyond any measure. We are no longer dealing with rebels here. You cannot say "I see Ragusa and Iconium are sparsely garrisoned, we can take them with a regiment of militia and a bodyguard of the general." You can take the city, but you are not prepared for the war. This seems something Tagaris has a difficulty wrapping his head around. He now sits in Zagreb, isolated from all other Imperial troops, with just his own horsemen, while a large Hungarian army sits nearby, so large that he could never defend his city if they should attack. Now he can only thank the Basileus (against whose will he took Zagreb) that he conclued the alliance with the Hungarians, and can only pray to the Lord that the Hungarians intend to respect the alliance. And while his prayer may be answered, this is not strategically sound. Now he openly proclaims that he wishes to conduct similar blunders on all the frontiers of the Empire! If I am elected Logothetes, when I take an enemy city, he will not be wondering how he might recapture it, but how he may stop our army before it reaches his next city.
That is my assessment of my opponent's strategy. Does anyone have any particular question about the policy I would pursue?
OverKnight
06-28-2008, 00:04
Aleksios speaks:
First, I will second Edict 2.3. On this particular topic, Comes Tagaris is correct.
However, his philosophy of endless pillaging to enable endless pillaging is not an approach I support. I have already spoken on the matter, and I find Comes Ampelas's manifesto much more to my liking.
Second, I will elaborate on my son's comment concerning Senator Nevoulas ek Philadelphious's proposal. As currently written, it is a Charter Amendment, because it grants anyone the power to declare war on the Turks at anytime past 1011. This power currently rests with myself and a majority vote of this body in the form of an Edict. The Senator has not achieved the needed rank, Domestikos, to propose amendments, he can only propose one Edict a Session.
The Senator is free to propose an Edict authorizing a declaration of war against the Turks. Though I feel such an Edict is not needed at this time. If during the next term, we reach a point where we are ready for a prolonged war against the Turks, I can call an Emergency Session to vote on a declaration of war.
Edit: Please also note that as Basileus any legislation I propose does not need to be seconded, as it will proceed straight to a vote. Feel free however to debate the merits of the proposal.
Askthepizzaguy
06-28-2008, 01:04
My lords, fellow Senators,
I believe Comes Methodios Tagaris would make an excellent Megas; I admire what he has already accomplished for the empire, and his prowess in battle. However, and this may surprise many of you, I agree that we should not charge headlong into a two front war against the Turks and the Catholics. I propose that the West work very hard to improve our settlements and prepare defenses, early warning watchtowers, spies, ships, and a strong defensive army, and let the Catholic scum come to us.
Seeing as how a direct assault is not in everyone's interest at this time...
In the meantime, friends and colleagues, The Turks must be destroyed. War with them is inevitable, as with the Catholics, but they have no allies, and they can be crushed swiftly if the might of the empire is concentrated against them.
I propose that the strategem of the entire Empire be focused on the erradication of the Turks and bringing Roman culture back to our former holdings in the east, in one swift stroke.
Then, when the East has become secure and rich with land and power, I ask that we switch our focus towards the West, and the inevitable war with Venice and Sicily. I am not certain who will strike us first, but we need ships. I am willing to see the lessening of our standing armies and the strengthening of our war vessels, because if we can sink those bastards before they even land on our soil, we will win the war before it begins!
Should they manage to land their forces, we can dismantle the excess ships and build a grand army, as long as we have prepared barracks and we have generals and watchtowers and forts in place to delay invasion forces. If the specifics of my plan are not agreed upon, then let us design a different strategy together. We must prepare for the Italians, we cannot afford to sit in our settlements with thumbs lodged firmly up our crevasses, betwixt the gluteal muscles.
We must also keep an eye on Hungary... I don't trust them. I am certain they have designs on Constantinople. In fact, if they begin sending their Holy Men down here, I suggest that someone make them... disappear. In a proper and legal fashion, of course.
In the meantime, while I would like to support Comes Tagaris, I would very much like to hear more from Comes Ampelas, regarding the specifics of his plans to bring glory to the empire. I have not decided whom to support yet. I do like the idea of having professional soldiers under my command...
Lately I've seen nothing but peasants with pitchforks and ragtag militias. (In fact, I've yet to see ANY soldiers under my direct command, barring my personal guards) So professional armies, one for each house at the very least, should be a priority. I am hoping that down the line, the western houses will all be large enough to field their own professional soldiers... for the glory of the Emperor they would conquer...
AussieGiant
06-28-2008, 08:17
Apionnas speaks
Gentlemen,
While war seems inevitable as the Empire expands, I simply recommend that we pursue aggression on one front and make a efforts to avoid getting involved in any other.
Having seen the economic reports coming into the capital over the past years, we simply can not be dragged into more than one conflict at this time. To do so would create a burden that neither our economy nor our under developed military could sustain for any length of time.
OverKnight
06-28-2008, 08:51
Seeing Apionnas speak, the Basileus seems to remember something. He rises to speak.
Senators, I have wonderful news. Senator Apionnas has embraced the Orthodox Church and has been christened. I am proud to have stood beside him as his Godfather as he was brought back to the True Faith.
My Godson has been granted Bucharest as his personal domain. Please join me in congratulating Comes Apionnas Vringas.
AussieGiant
06-28-2008, 08:57
Apionnas stands and bows to the assembled lords and then makes a deeper one to the Basileus.
Ignoramus
06-28-2008, 08:59
Ioannis quickly follows his father.
"I congratulate Senator Apionnas! I trust his decision was not motivated by political interest, and that he will be a fervant member of the true Christian faith."
Ioannis nods approvingly towards Senator Apionnas and resumes his seat.
AussieGiant
06-28-2008, 09:08
Apionnas addresses the Ceasar
My lord, your parents were present and the Patriach himself conducted the ceremony. I could not have had a more supportive and legitimate service. While it does feel strange I do now remember clearly the early days of my life. My parents where both Christians. One Orthodox, one Catholic.
As for political interest, well that is for your father and perhaps you yourself to determine.
Holding his gaze a little long on the Ceasar.
I am at your service my lord. If you wish anything you simply have to ask.
Nevoulas ek Philadelphius stands.
I cherish all matters of the faith and celebrate Apionnas' conversion.
Nevoulas takes a deep breath and turns to the Basileus.
I must apologize to you my lord for my hasty and unwieldy wording of my proposed Edict 2.4. I was overeager to speak my mind on the issue and as such was somewhat cluttered on how to express myself properly.
I respect and agree with the protocol of declarations of war by this empire, war is a serious thing and must be restricted to being declared by the Megas, whomever that may be or indeed yourself My lord Basileus Aleksios.
I am still passionate about the said edict and wish to reword it if I may to this:
Edict 2.4 (a): In 1101, war will be declared on the Seljuk Sultanate.
I am pleased to see several senators have sent me support and I thank them for their counsal. The words and thoughts of Strator Monomachos closely follow my own imaginations and dream for the direction of the empire. Rid ourselves of the evils of the Turks and then move on to the unholy elements of Christendom.
Nevoulas turns to catch the eye of the Caeser
My lord I thank you finally for pointing out my error before it spiraled into even more confusion then it has already caused.
Nevoulas then sits.
AussieGiant
06-28-2008, 11:54
Standing again to address the assembly.
I thank Senator Nevoulas for his support regarding my conversion.
As a note is passed to him by a court official Apionnas also nods in the direction of Senator Michail.
The calm exterior so commonly part of the young officer's demeanour in public changes. Gone is the unreadable face, a scowl and a glint in his eyes replaces his youthful expression. More over his tone of voice is deeper and carries without effort across the massive hall.
"Declaring war on the Turk is inevitable. However, now that this edict is in place, IF it is passed we will have a clear mandate. However, I would warn everyone to the dangers inherent in this voting system because we may find ourselves at war with more than one nation if further edicts are tabled, and passed.
Therefore, to ensure we do not open up more than one front, tabling of any further edicts should be held back until the next session."
Placing his hands on the desk in front of him his Arab robes fall open to reveal a heavy suit of scale armour.
"My Regiment was wiped out by Turkish units. I would recommend our own commanders in the region consult on force composition and tactics before any head long engagements are made. To underestimate the Turk will be our downfall.
More over, war will drain our ability to consolidate which I believe is the stated aim of our Basileus."
deguerra
06-28-2008, 14:04
Strators,
As I have made clear previously, I do not advocate a rash and aggressive war. The Basileos has made consolidation the maxim for our lands, and I support him wholeheartedly in that endeavour. I also support the Caesar's edict for watchtowers, as their relatively minor expensive will surely be offset by their great value as an early warning system.
As such, I support Markianos Ampelas in his candidature for Megas. I hope Methodios will not take this personally, I greatly value his dedication to the Basileos and the Empire at whole, and do not doubt his honourable intentions.
But I am of the opinion that we should consolidate our gains before we move any further, and that our current western border provides us with a territory held more easily than more expansion would. The Patriarch has specifically condemned actions against fellow Christians, heretics though they may be, and in any case I cannot see the right in advocating war against our erstwhile allies Venice, when the Turk still crosses our border and raids into our lands at will. If we should be going to war, and we should not, then it should be in the east. Our foothold there is much less certain than that of the west.
Finally, I would like to congratulate Apionnas on his conversion, and remind all Strators of his words regarding Turkish tactics. Let us use this man and his knowledge when the time comes.
AussieGiant
06-28-2008, 15:14
I would agree with Lord Ioannis.
Consolidate and hold in the west. Watch towers and garrison troops to be the priority.
Mobilise for war in the east. Counter cavalry and missile tactics should be the focus. At this moment we are simply able to use brute force due to the quality and quantity of our heavy cavalry units. This will be a fatal flaw as time passes.
My only point would be to do all this ONLY AFTER we have spent at least half a term of the next Megas in consolidating commerce, infrastructure and then finally military capabilities. That in fact should probably be the plan for his entire term in reality. Don't overlook the fact that other nations may take the decision out of our hands by declaring war on us.
My thanks to Lord Ioannis for his kind words on my conversion. While I may continue to wear the garments and armour of the Saracen it is purely for practicalities sake given the benefits in this part of the world.
_Tristan_
06-28-2008, 20:34
He now sits in Zagreb, isolated from all other Imperial troops, with just his own horsemen, while a large Hungarian army sits nearby, so large that he could never defend his city if they should attack. Now he can only thank the Basileus (against whose will he took Zagreb) that he conclued the alliance with the Hungarians, and can only pray to the Lord that the Hungarians intend to respect the alliance. And while his prayer may be answered, this is not strategically sound. Now he openly proclaims that he wishes to conduct similar blunders on all the frontiers of the Empire
Blunder... who are you to call what is one of the greatest victory our Empire has known in decades, a blunder ?
What damns me is the lack of faith you have in the leadership of our generals... From what I have seen, all have proven to have great skill and I am sure that even against unfavorable odds they would be able to bring victory to our arms. Let our enemies come and try to take from us what is rightfully ours and we will turn them away and snatch their own homes from them...
Finally, though I may isolated in Zagreb, which I prefer to see as an Empire domain rather than in Hungarian hands, I am very much prepared to defend it against any and all comers with only my bodyguard if need be... You suppose I'm praying for the Hungarians or Venetians to turn away while I want exactly the contrary, to lure them to try and take Zagreb...
And where did you get that twisted idea that I took Zagreb against the Basileus' will ? Though I admit I was not requested to do it, I was never barred from it either...
As to the proposed Edicts, Edict 2.1 et 2.2 receive my full support. As to Edict 2.4, I would prefer it does not impose a date upon us. War must be led against the Turks but not only...
Considering our Basileos' proposed Amendment, though I see the reasoning behind it, it being mainly proposed after my trespass on Venetian lands, I fear that it may impose restraints upon us in the future, restraints that we may wish to break free of... Out of loyalty for our Basileos, I will support this Amendment but I hope my observations will make you consider the full import of this proposed legislation.
You suppose I'm praying for the Hungarians or Venetians to turn away while I want exactly the contrary, to lure them to try and take Zagreb...
I do apologize, good Strator Tagaris, you speak the truth. It is quite obvious that you do wish to instigate a war in the west, I do not disagree with that at all. You knew full well when you set out that after you captured Zagreb, it would be both isolated and poorly defended, but this is what you wanted since, as you say yourself in this very chamber, you wanted to lure the westerners into an attack. The violation of Venetian territory on the way was a bonus. So I do apologize for calling your campaign for Zagreb a blunder; it was in fact a well-calculated attempt to subvert the authority of the Basileus and the Senate, who are the only two at this time that may choose who the Empire goes to war with. A war-declaring Edict you have not sought here, and neither the permission of the Basileus for you one day disappeared and later appeared in Zagreb.
And you still seek no Edict for war here, even as you declare that you wish to engage in expansion during your term. You will probably try to dismiss the need for such an Edict, but I assure you, it is the Senate (or the Basileus) who decides whom war is to be made upon, not you alone. It all leads me to believe that you have little loyalty to the Empire, and no respect for this legislative body. After all, what manner of man openly declares in the Magnaura that he is trying to lure the Hungarians into an attack, Hungarians who have been chosen as allies by our Basileus? But I do apologize again for calling Zagreb a blunder. No blunders have been performed yet, but a great one is coming if you are elected to the office of Logothetes.
Hypatios growls his approval of Markianos' words.
_Tristan_
06-29-2008, 08:01
Comes Ampelas,
While I do not question the wisdom of our Basileos in seeking an alliance with the Hungarians, I think that alliance should be tested and what better test than to see if they are ready to claim for themselves lands that we have asserted as ours ?
Let them come, defeat them and then we will able to require of them a ceasefire and perhaps a renewal of our alliance on more favouable terms...
But mainly, it is not the Hungarians that I seek to lure to us but rather the money-grubbing Venetians. The province of Zagreb is rich with gold and iron ore, riches that will the Venetians like bees on honey...
I propose the same policy here : Let them declare war and prove to the world what felonious people they are, defeat them and force them to pay for a return to a peaceful state...
I see no point in proposing a war edict... I have no wish to declare war... We must force them to declare it on us and I have no power in the Venetian Senate, nor any other of our neighbours' assembly... So I see no nedd at this point to propose an Edict for a war I do not wish to see us declare... As for an Edict designing targets, I asked House Leaders to provide the Edicts necessary to list the territories they deemed could reasonably be added to the Imperial domain... I have yet to see a proposal though I know that some have already given thought to it... We already have the means to go at war with the Turks, though the date seems too far away to me, or rather too restrictive... Should any other territories be deemed worthy to be added to our lands, I encourage any of you to propose an Edict.
May I remind my fellow senators that while we digress on whether of not I was allowed to claim Zagreb, right this moment Strator Kantakouzinos is marching on Iasi which may have been claimed by our Kievan or Hungarian allies too... Does this raise an outcry ? None that I can hear...
Moreover, I'd like to remind Good Senator Ampelas of his words of some years ago :
I am glad to see so many wishing to scramble for Durazzo, as the only person who actually owns adjacent land. As long as somebody captures it and holds it before the Venetians, I am happy. Remember the Venetians? I am sure they have designs for it too. Why, their nobles may be arguing at this very moment the assembly of their republic about who should be the one to take it.
It seems the eastern front was far from your mind at that point... Where caused this change of attitude ? I wonder...
Lastly, I'd dare anybody in this hall to bring evidence that the Venetians had any inkling that I and my men crossed their territory... Never did we cross the path of a Venetian patrol, nor did we flaunt our colors... Bring me proof that because of my actions our standing with the Venetians is lower than what it ever was... (OOC : I noticed no decline in our relationship with the Venetians but could be wrong on that point, feel free to correct me...)
_Tristan_
06-29-2008, 18:29
Seeing how his last adress has provoked few comments, Tagaris rises to speak once more.
One thing I would like Comes Ampelas to tell us is how with much more provinces in the Empire, though most are still struggling to get their economies started, how will he manage to fund the building and troop training policy he advocates ?
Our Basileos, with a lot less provinces requiring funds, and with the high managerial skills he displayed was often at a loss for funds : therefore construction sites had to abandoned , few professional troops were trained... See the Megas' reports for 1086 and 1090... The only time where construction could be launched in all settlements was with the influx of funds from the taking of Antioch...I rest my case.
Pillaging is not something I look forward to but it is a means to an end... nothing more, nothing less... And let us not forget that if the enemy (be it Turk or Italian or whoever else) attacked us, our victories could afford us to ransom their men back...
War is the means to the improvement of our Empire not some attentist policy... Build churches all you like but they will offer you some truly poor shelter once our neighbours awaken to our new found strength and begin to see us as a threat...
A crestfallen Nevoulas is sitting alone some distance from even senators from his own house. He feels alone and somewhat isolated from the world of this politics and indeed the Magnuera. As he watches now, Senators discussing who they wish to support for the upcoming Megas he moves his head into his hands.
The last few days have been an eye-opening experience for Nevoulas, he had no idea the underhand scheming and politics that went on. He was certain that several senators would wish war on the eastern front, many had been openly accepting that the Turks had encroached onto rightful Roman lands. From what he has read the logistics of said attack would favour the Romans considerably, espiecially if given a focussed short time to prepare for such attack.
However, it seems most would rather sit and skulk in the shadows act as 'yes' men for the beloved Basileus all the while plotting and scheming and hoping to get their way to the top. No-one is prepared to stick their necks out and tell his lord what needs to be done.
Nevoulas wipes sweat from his brow and stands to speak at the murmering senate:
My fellow senators, it seems as if my hopes of making war in Anatolia may have been premature or even a touch hasty. Maybe the memories of Manzikert still hold understandable fear in the hearts of us. I apprieciate the more important matter of who is to become Megas may be clouding much of your thoughts. Do you not notice what is happening here in our Senate.
Nevoulas turns to the Basileus.
You to my lord Basileus wish to control and channel our enthusiasm. What better than a just fight on our Eastern front? I call for you one last time, I make a final plea and final re-wording of my seemingly unpopular edict.
Edict 2.4(b) War will be declared on the Seljuk Sultanate at some point during the next term
Perhaps I stand alone in this quest, I wonder here and now who is with me?
Nevoulas sits in a rather empty part of the Magnaura looking more in desperation than hope at the faces of his fellow senators.
You still don't get it, Tagaris, and I doubt that you ever will, but let me try again. You seek not to declare war, but you seek to start one by some other means. There is no difference, and it's still the Senate's or Basileus' responsiblity. Look at good and honorable Nevoulos ek Philadelphias, and how he struggles to get his war supported in the Senate. Why does he not simply march off into Turkish territory with his bodyguard and stay near Iconium until they attack him? Why bother with the Senate and the Basileus when they do not support him? If that's a question you know the answer to, then we may yet be making progress.
And let me help you out too. We know the Basileus wishes no war in the west, as he has proclaimed a desire for consolidation, and proposed an Amendment to patch up the very loophole you exploited. Let us then, see what the Senate thinks. Since I am not as pretentious as you, Tagaris, and do not pretend to know the desire of the Senate, let me solicit their opinion.
Edict 2.5: It is the Senate's opinion that a war with the Venetians and/or Hungarians should be sought, but not declared upon them. While this Edict reflects the Senate's opinion, it is not binding.
There is no way to stop you from instigating your war, but we might as well see what the Senate thinks about it. I included both the Venetians and Hungarians as you have no control over who attacks you; you say you want it to be the Venetians, but it is the Hungarians who now sit near the city. You can capture any city you wish, but if you wish to instigate a war, and you clearly say that was your purpose, then had you any respect for the bodies of authority in our Empire, you would have sought their opinion. A loophole in the Charter you may exploit, but I assure you that is always done without honor.
As for your other points, I shall cover them in brief. Iasi is of no issue, as the Poles are not besieging it. And you quote me saying that I wish to see Durazzo captured by someone, anyone except the Venetians. The same Durazzo over which you proposed an Edict which required that you personally be sent to capture it, and only withdrew it after an outcry in the Senate. It has certainly taught you well that you should not let the Senate know of your personal glory-seeking plans. I believe our relations with the Venetians are now terrible (OOC: I could be wrong too, I checked them after the fact and they were terrible, but I admit I didn't check what they started at), and the situation at Zagreb is doing no good to our relations with the Hungarians, our allies. And as for the economy, go look at the current financial status and stop fear mongering. It is funny how could call both for restraint during occupation of cities and at the same time for violent pillaging.
And finally, although I don't know that we'll be ready for the Turkish war in the next term (and if we are, the Basileus can declare it), I second Edict 2.4b just because I appreciate the gesture of respect to the Senate!
A somewhat worn figure sitting in the back of the hall stands and walks to the Asteri table. It is Kosmas Mavrozomis, but he looks slightly pale and thinner than normal, as if recovering from a long illness. Nonetheless, there is a determined look on his face. He nods towards Nevoulos and turns to address the Senate.
"I second Edict 2.4(b). For too long we have let Christian lands be ruled by the infidel Turks. Our brothers in Christ cry out for succor. Taking the rebel lands in Anatolia and Antioch held by petty princelings and Emirs was a good first start, but to free the Christians of Anatolia we will have to face the Seljuk empire. At the same time, though, the Empire has far to go to regain it's strength. If we are to face the Seljuks, we will need to consolidate our forces first into sizable armies, rather than just the little ragtag militia forces we have rounded up from our cities. Nevoulos' edict as rewritten allows the flexibility to build up our forces before taking an offensive."
deguerra
06-30-2008, 02:49
I too second Edict 2.4b. I think as it stands, it allows for the consolidation the Basileos has rightly called for, while recognising the threat of the Sultanate of Rum.
The Protoasecretes awakens from his slumber and wipes more drool from the corner of his mouth.
I hereby declare the Senate session of 1095 AD over. Voting for legislation and Megas Logothetes will begin shortly.
GeneralHankerchief
06-30-2008, 18:14
Patriarchal representative:
I trust that by now you have all received copies of His Holiness's latest proclamation. Considering that his thoughts match up with the Basileus's, let both of their words guide the next Megas throughout his term.
OverKnight
07-06-2008, 07:59
Aleksios enters the Magnaura and speaks.
It is my great pleasure to announce the betrothal of my daughter Anna to Antypatos Ioannis Kalameteros.
May Fortune smile upon their union.
Askthepizzaguy
07-06-2008, 08:03
Efstratios rises at this news, aghast... and rushes out of the Magnaura without saying anything further to his colleagues.
AussieGiant
07-06-2008, 11:19
Standing a certain distance behind the Besileus, the young officers face remains impassive at the news. He raises an eyebrow at the reaction and departing figure of Efstratios, then makes his way from the chamber.
OverKnight
07-12-2008, 15:30
Aleksios speaks.
Senators, a Crusade army from the so-called "Holy Roman" Empire bound for Jerusalem is north of Belgrade. They will soon cross into our lands.
The Basileus looks a bit peeved.
Short of declaring war on them, there is no way we can prevent this. However we do have the option of denying them passage across into Anatolia by blockading the Hellespont and Bosphorus straits. This will force them to find a new land route.
There are advantages to both denying passage to the Crusaders or letting them into Anatolia.
By denying them passage, we can prevent, or at least delay, the presence of another faction in the Levant. These lands are rightfully ours, and while we may not have the resources to claim them yet, we will, and we do not need another competitor for them.
However, denying passage to a Crusade would require a commitment of ships and we run the risk of angering the Catholics. Better that the Saracens be a target than us.
By granting the Crusaders passage, they may unwittingly assist our upcoming campaign against the Turks. I doubt the Seljuks will be happy to see another Christian force marching through their lands.
However, the movement of so many men at once might cause complications. Only so many men can pass through the rugged interior of Anatolia at once.
I realize that the Megas Logothetes has the final say in these matters. But a foreign army crossing through our territory is a grave and potentially dangerous event. It would be best if the opinion of the Senate was heard on this matter.
Whatever may happen, I will take my army west to monitor our "guests" and make sure they do not take liberties while in our territory. While I wish to take part in our upcoming war, the security of the Empire comes first.
OOC: I will make sure I don't accidentally ambush them. :wink:
GeneralHankerchief
07-12-2008, 16:34
Patriarchal Representative:
I have it on high authority that the people of Germany bear no ill will to us, or, at the very least, the people of the Orthodox faith. My master is of the belief that should we attack them, we will have gained ourselves an additional enemy that we otherwise would not have had. His Eminence suggests that the same strategy be taken that we so often do with the stinging insects: If we do not bother them, they will not bother us.
However, as the Basileus plans, keeping tabs on their force is, naturally, prudent.
Ibn-Khaldun
07-12-2008, 19:19
Efstathios stands up.
"I support the Basileus in this. We should keep an eye on their movement but still be out of their way.
The suggested blocking of Bosphorus and Hellespont straits.. well.. I think we should deny them any chance to get near our beloved capital. Somehow a crusaders near Constantinople makes me anxious."
Efstathios looks some papers in front of him and continues..
"But I am strongly against starting a war with them. Because they are the crusaders then the Pope can use it against us and make other catholic kings to go war aganst our Empire. We are strong and powerful but against combined catholic kingdoms we still are too weak."
Efstathios sighs..
"I also have to say that these are my thoughts and not of my Houses. They may have another opinion about this matter and I apologize for taking a word without first consulting with them."
By taking his seat he continues his work with several parchments and books in front of him. Life of a new senator is tough.
BananaBob
07-13-2008, 00:03
I hereby break my oath to Makdonios, and swear an oath of fealty to Armatos
I do not believe we should attempt to stop the crusaders from passing into Asia. I doubt they will be happy to have to go around the Black Sea, and we certainly do not want them to be stuck and irritated near our capital. I will, however, block the Bosporus so that they will take the Dardanelles instead. They were probably gonna do that anyway, and it's best if they don't come near our capital. I will also see if they can be persuaded by diplomacy to delcare war on the Turks too, without much concession on our part, other than allowing them to pass through our lands.
_Tristan_
07-15-2008, 17:47
A messenger bearing a letter enters the Senate halls. After exchanging a few words with the Protoasecretes, he is allowed to take the floor.
My Lords,
I bring words from my Lord Methodios Tagaris.
Unrolling a parchment, he begins to read.
Basileos,
Megas Logothethes,
Fellow Senators,
Watch duty on our northern frontier keep me from these halls but I hope my words will carry to you.
These are words of warning.
Some years ago, in a dispute with our actual Megas Logothethes, I argued that war against our Catholic neighbours would surely come and that we had to prepare for it and even provoke it while we had the advantage of surprise with a fast expansion behind us. My word went unheeded and see where we are now ?
In these past years, we have been faced with Catholic rebellions in our western regions and just as we begin to quell those with the loss of Zagreb to account for, the Catholic Pope calls a Crusade on Jerusalem, an offense to our people who are the righteous defenders of this most Holy of cities.
Can't you see that the Catholic threat is growing perhaps taking profit from the fact that our Megas out of single-mindedness and maybe out of spite, has not seen fit to properly garrison our northern and western frontier.
Do you think that these so-called crusaders will leave our lands untouched ? That our riches will not whet their appetites ?
That is why I and some others, and our Basileos among them have taken upon ourselves the task of interdicting our territory to the German crusaders.
And what of their answer ? Threats to wage war on us ?
Our Megas assures us that he has somehow placated the German wrath but at what price ? The price of letting them walk freely on our soil, preying on our folk and our fields...
Are you blind not to see that the so-called rebellion were only a preparatory move to soften us for a full scale invasion that may start with those Crusaders crossing our borders ?
Is there no shorter way to Jerusalem than crossing all of Greece and Anatolikon ?
I above all wish to reclaim our territories from those Turkish devil-worshippers to repay them for the offense that Manzikert was but let us not turn ouor backs to the Catholics lest they backstab us...
The dagger is already out of its sheath and it is made of German steel...
So I beg our Megas to allow for some recruitment in our western lands so that we can parry and perhaps counter-thrust that daggerstab...
Thank you for listening to me.
Signed : Methodios Tagaris.
The man rolls up the parchment, bows low to the assembly and deposits the parchment to the Protoasecretes' desk before making his exit.
Askthepizzaguy
07-15-2008, 22:55
A junior Senator, taking the place of Efstratios, nods wordlessly at the reading of Methodios' letter. Clearly the House Tepaki approves of more.... proactive... measures in dealing with the Catholic scum.
OverKnight
07-16-2008, 04:52
Aleksios grimaces.
Senator Tagaris's words would carry more weight if he, at this very moment, wasn't heading north, away from the Crusade, towards Iasi.
For now, we must bear the indignity of a Catholic army crossing our land. The Senate voted for a war against the Turks, and we have that. To add further enemies at this point would be foolhardy.
Senator Tagaris has tried to provoke a war with the Germans and failed due to the Megas Logothetes' diplomacy. He is now, as at Zagreb, trying to cast his selfish actions in a more noble light. Do not heed his words.
Senator Ampelas has my full support. He has performed his job with competence in the face of unforseen difficulties and a difficult mandate from the Senate.
The Protoasecretes eyes the Senators as they begin trickling into the Magnaura. He leans over to a scribe and whispers, "Is it time for another damn session again?" The young lad nods slightly. "Damn! I have a fresh cask of Sicilian wine sitting in my villa, and now it'll be a week before I can get out there." He sighs heavily, and stands. After reaching the center of the room, he bangs his staff loudly on the marble floor.
"I hereby declare the Senate Session of 1110 AD open! It will remain open until... uh... a time to be decided later."
Event Three: The Egyptian Crusade
http://ec-dejavu.ru/images/c/crusade_11.jpg
Please read the story (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1968942&postcount=100) and the Patriarchal Proclamation (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1968943&postcount=5) first. The Patriarch of Constantinople has called for a Holy Orthodox Crusade against the Egyptian Infidels. The target is the Egyptian capital city of Cairo, with Alexandria as a secondary objective.
Rules:
1) Any Senator may join the Crusade, though Senators who already own land are highly encouraged to remain behind to see to the welfare of their people. All Senators must declare their intention to join the Crusade by the end of the 1110 AD Senate Session by sending a PM to TinCow. All Senators who join the Crusade will be known as Crusaders for the duration of the Event. Whoever is elected Megas in the 1110 AD election cannot go on the Crusade.
2) Every Crusader will be instantly transported to Constantinople after the 1110 AD Senate Session has ended. They will arrive with only their personal bodyguard; all other armies and military units under their command will be left behind.
3) Once assembled in Constantinople, every Crusader will have a small army generated for their personal use during the Crusade. The army, including the avatar's bodyguard, will be no more than six units in size, and no less than three units in size. The number, type, and quality of units will depend on the traits of the avatar himself. The exact distribution will be determined by TinCow, but with the following general guidelines: Pious avatars will receive more ‘Crusader' type units (Grand Crosses, Religious Fanatics, perhaps even Crusader Sergeants, etc.); high Command avatars will receive higher quality units, either in the form of more advanced units, or normal units with extra experience and/or upgrades; high Chivalry avatars may receive trained knights, or their Orthodox equivalent; high Dread avatars may receive high-quality mercenaries; avatars that already own a settlement may receive some extra militia units.
4) Only the units received in #3 can be taken on the Crusade. The Megas is barred from providing the Crusaders with any additional units in any way until Cairo is captured. Crusaders are free to join forces with their armies prior to setting sail or after landing in Egypt. Crusaders may abandon any other Crusader they have joined with at any point after landing in Egypt. Anyone who splits away in this manner will take all of their surviving units with them. All rank limitations on command are abolished for Crusaders for the duration of the Crusade. No Crusader may move his own army or fleet for the duration of the Event. All movement of Crusaders and their armies/fleets will be done by TinCow.
5) Once all Crusaders have determined whether to join their army with others or remain separate, every separate army will be placed on a generated fleet of the proper size to hold them. The fleets will all set sail for Egypt at the start of the second turn of the Megas’ term. Every turn TinCow will roll a die for each fleet. This will simulate random factors effecting movement, such as weather, provisioning, delays, etc. Good rolls will result in full movement, perhaps even bonus movement. Bad rolls will result in reduced movement, or perhaps none at all. Armies of 6 units or fewer will receive a +1 to their movement rolls. Armies of 13 units or more will receive a -1 to their movement rolls.
6) Every turn, any Crusader may attempt to sabotage the movement of another Crusading army, whether at sea or on land, or even while besieging Cairo or Alexandria. A die will be rolled to determine if this is successful. Successful sabotage while at sea or on land will slow down the movement of the target army. Successful sabotage while besieging a city will prevent the army from assaulting until the next turn. There will be a small chance that the Crusader who attempted the sabotage will have his identity revealed, regardless of whether the sabotage succeeds or not.
7) When each army lands in Egypt, their entire fleet will be disbanded, with the IC justification of the wood being cannibalized to build siege engines. At this point, if the garrisons of Alexandria and Cairo are below 10 units, they will be increased to 10 units. After it lands, each Crusade army must send a PM to TinCow indicating whether they are marching directly on Cairo or going to Alexandria first. No city may be attacked other than Cairo or Alexandria. If there are AI controlled armies along the marching path, TinCow may require them to be destroyed before the city can be besieged. For the duration of the Crusade, an official declaration of war by the Senate or the Basileus is not required prior to attacking Egypt, however only the Crusaders may initiate the war.
8) The Crusader army that conquers Alexandria will gain ownership of that city. This city ownership will completely bypass the usual rule requiring vassals to give provinces to their Lords. Whoever conquers Alexandria will obtain control over it directly. If there are multiple Crusaders in the conquering army, they must all agree on who will command the attack and who will receive the city prior to assaulting the city. If they cannot agree before the Megas declares the turn over, they must wait until the next turn to assault it. The Crusader who gains possession of Alexandria will be given two to four additional units by TinCow. This entire paragraph only applies if Alexandria is conquered before Cairo.
9) The Crusader army that conquers Cairo will gain ownership of that city and will gain two religious relics. This city ownership will completely bypass the usual rule requiring vassals to give provinces to their Lords. Whoever conquers Cairo will obtain control over it and the relics directly. If there are multiple Crusaders in the conquering army, they must all agree on who will command the attack and how the spoils will be split prior to assaulting the city. If they cannot agree before the Megas declares the turn over, they must wait until the next turn to assault it. The Crusade (and the Event) ends when Cairo is captured.
10) There is another aspect to this event which will remain secret until it occurs.
Ramses II CP
07-16-2008, 14:56
Vissarionas ek Lesvou enters the Magnaura. The years have been kind to him despite living in a foreign, and at times hostile, city. The boy who first ventured here so long ago has clearly become a man, and confidence can be read in his stride. He marches to the Order table and, turning to the rest of the senators, begins to speak.
'First let me announce my unshakeable intent to join the Crusade! Our Patriarch has called, and at the very least I would expect all unlanded nobles to answer!
Second let me say, having so recently returned from there, that Cairo is a city of wonders and glory. Lately ascendant within the Fatimid empire it has grown to such a size that the population is beyond count, and people of every race, religion, and nationality mingle there. The quantity of trade goods moving through her ports is astonishing, and there can be no doubting the wealth of her leaders.
Thirdly, alas, I must relate that some madness has overcome the Caliph in his palace, and as I have heard with my own ears he means to slaughter our good brothers and sisters in Christ and expel the survivors from his city. This cannot be borne! This must not be borne! Revered sites of ancient wisdom and holiness are threatened as well, and they must be rescued!
With God, Patriarch, and Senate as my witness I vow here that I will not rest until the city of Cairo is taken in the name of Orthodoxy! If I must march alone I shall do so, but I pray that some among my fellow heirs of Rome will follow in my path. Let us light a fire of revival and justice across the Levant until Cairo is redeemed for the evil that is even now being done there!
I shall participate in the other issues raised this session as best my Crusade preparations allow.'
Vissarionas ek Lesvou then adjourns to the Order's chambers, to speak to his brothers.
:egypt:
Privateerkev
07-16-2008, 15:01
Makedonios walks into the Senate for the first time in a long time. Older, but still with a fire in his eyes, he walks in without the aid of a cane. He does periodically still cough into a napkin though.
Greetings fellow Senators,
I full-throatedly support the Crusade. The people of Cairo must be saved from extermination. I will provide all the material, legislative, and political support that I can muster.
Any member of the Order without land has my full blessing to join in this Holy Crusade.
Ituralde
07-16-2008, 15:25
Pavlos stands, still looking a bit haggard and a full-grown beard now covers his face only broken by his scar but almost long enough to cover it.
It does my heart good to see many in the Empire willing to teach those heathens a lessen. The Omens stand well for an attack against the Fatimid Sultanate and I wish every man that will venture there the best success!
Let me just take this opportunity to congratulate Antypatos Ioannis Kalameteros and his wife Anna Komnenus on their recent wedding! Unfortunately I have been busy in the East and couldn't join the festivities on your estate, I am sure it was an event that many will speak of!
deguerra
07-16-2008, 15:32
Ioannis stands and gives Pavlos a quick bow
Many thanks for your kind words. I understand many were out furthering the cause of the Empire while I was married. No one need apologise for that.
I too wholeheartedly support this Crusade. Egypt was once Greek, was once Roman. Our influence in those lands must not be allowed to be exterminated, nor must we ignore the plight of our brothers in faith.
I will not be crusading myself, however. We are still at war with the Turks, and that war must be brought to a satisfactory conclusion. I am, as you are doubtlessly aware, a landowning noble and I encourage this to be an opportunity for those still without land to prove their worth. Finally, I have a beautiful wife and two small children. My Turkish campaign will keep me busy enough as it is, I do not want to spend more time from them than I have to.
But I fully encourage all nobles of House Asteri, and indeed of all Houses and factions, who desire to heed the Patriarch's call to go. I especially encourage those without land, as I have said, but let us not exclude men of worth on silly technicalities. If a man feels it is his duty to go, I ask that we not bar his way.
Cecil XIX
07-16-2008, 15:38
I fully support the Crusade on Cairo.
Thus, I propose Edict 3.1-
War is to be declared on the Fatamid Caliphate, and a Crusade on Cairo is to be assembled and launched, as per the Patriarchal Proclamation.
Privateerkev
07-16-2008, 15:39
I second Edict 3.1
Ibn-Khaldun
07-16-2008, 15:54
Efstathios raises from his seat. He looks around and waits till the voices get quiet enough so that he could speak and says..
"Our family are known as brave warriors and as good Christians."
"So.." Efstathios looks in front of him for a second, sighs and then raises his eyes again..
"I will join this crusade for the good of the Christian people in Cairo and for the good of the Empire!"
Determination sounded from his voice while saying this..
Looking Vissarionas he continues..
"It would be a honor to join our forces noble Vissarionas ek Lesvou. Also I would like to know more about Cairo and it's people. Surely not all of them are as bloodthirsty like their Caliph?"
Dear Basileus,
Dear Caesar,
Dear Senators,
As you all know, I am not a man for religious fanaticism.
What is happening in Cairo as we speak cannot go unnoticed.
We are Romans and therefore, it is our moral duty to bring civilisation into the known world. Killing Christians because of their belief, is not civilised, to say the least, and thus cannot be allowed as long as there is a Byzantine Empire! This fanatic nutjob of a Caliph needs to be punished!
Savvas inhales after his outburst.
Talking about religious fanaticism, there's also the matter of the crusades called by the Catholic Pope. In my humble opinion, the Megas Logothetes made the right decisions during his term.
Of course, most of us are not happy with crusaders wandering through our Empire.
Of course, the hostile behaviour of the Germans was outrageous.
But... our Empire couldn't afford a war on two different fronts during the mandate of Markianos Ampelas.
Thanks to Markianos, we now do have the means for a war on two fronts.
The recent events in Cairo however, oblige us to pick that region as our second front.
My esteemed colleagues, given the current situation, the Crusade on Cairo should be a priority.
Other priorities are the strenghtening of our Western and Northern frontiers to prevent the crusades on Jerusalem to take "a detour" through Constantinople and, of course the War against the Turks, who still haven't suffered enough for the disasters they caused to our Empire in the past.
There's also a practical reason for the importance of continuing the war against the Seljuks: our efforts for the Crusade and the strengthening of our frontiers will require florins. Alot of florins. Florins that can be acquired by sacking the cities of those damnable Turks.
Since both my lord and me have to take care of our own territories, the rather small House of Tagamata unfortunately cannot send one of its' members on the Crusade.
However, let it not be said that House Tagamata will neglect its' duties during this time of peril.
As Arthimos (protector of the Royal Family) in the House of Tagamata, I am willing to take care of our funds, our frontiers and to offer support on the war efforts of my fellow Senators during the Crusade.
I remind all of you that I am experienced both in battle as in politics and that my actions thus far have proven me to be a loyal servant of the Empire.
Most of you will probably remember that I left my own settlement, Arta, and took its' entire garrison with me to march to our Northern frontier the very moment I heard about the large rebel armies threatening our Empire.
Therefore, I hereby humbly ask the Magnaura to elect me as your new Megas Logothetes.
Savvas sits down.
Ibn-Khaldun
07-16-2008, 16:20
I second the Edict 3.1!!
Savvas looks amused.
I admire your enthusiasm, young Senator Efstathios Laskaris, but there's no need to yell. Some of us might be getting a bit older, but we surely aren't deaf.
Savvas smiles encouraging at his younger colleague.
Ibn-Khaldun
07-16-2008, 16:42
Efstathios blushed and says..
"I was not yelling. I was .. just .. coughing my throat .. there was something in it .. Yes .. that was it!"
Efstathios blushed even more ..
Ramses II CP
07-16-2008, 18:57
Vissarionas has returned to the Senate floor in time to hear much of the debate which is ongoing. When Efstathios volunteers to join the Crusade Vissa's face breaks into an open smile.
Well met my good man, and pleasure to hear your vow! I will be sailing in as much haste as possible, but rest assured that I will be open to coordinating our actions.
As for Cairo, I would honestly have said during my time there that even the Caliph was a man of peace and tolerance, but something must have brought about a change. The Christian quarter of Cairo was thriving, and other than matters of political power there was no discrimination to speak of in the city. The Muslims hold firm a prohibition on alcohol which I found to improve the general conditions in the city, though there were certain over-looked exceptions.
The people of Cairo are friendly and prosperous, the streets are of excellent quality, and trade of every imaginable sort passes through there. If I were forced to live among infidels I know of no better place to do so than Cairo.
Though it is not needed, I will second edict 3.1 as well, in the spirit of the Crusade!
Vissarionas sits down at the Order's table, quietly contemplative.
:egypt:
Stavrar walks into the Senate floor, and hears murmerings of the Edict 1.3. He hears enogh of it to form a brief idea of what it is about. Hearing that fellow Order member have seconded he makes his decision.
I also will second Edict 1.3
I also will join the Crusaders and will sail to the Holy Lands.
Ibn-Khaldun
07-16-2008, 20:34
Efstathios sighs..
If this is true, then I hope that the city will not have the same destiny as Antioch had after it was captured.
He looks towards the Order's table..
But that is another story.
Turning to Stavrar he says..
It is Edict 3.1 actually we are talking about.
Saying this Efstathios smiles..
How could you say such a thing. The capture of Antioch was a simple mistake by our armies. They got ontop of themselves after the defeat and killed many, yes. But do not even dare think for how the Order remorsed. I moved into Antioch just after it had been taken and I know how the Order wept. Vissa even went into Egypt to search for redemption.
Blushes at his outburst but mainly at the fact how he managed to get his first vote wrong
Privateerkev
07-16-2008, 20:54
At the mention of Antioch, Makedonios raises.
Strator Efstathios,
If you wish to say something about Antioch, you can say it to me. The rest of the Order had nothing to do with it. I was the commander and therefore I am responsible.
We have done our best to repent and repay the people of that city. An Orthodox abbey now sits in the city and priests are preaching the Word. A school has been set up for the orphans and I have personally met with each and every family to educate them on the city services they are entitled to.
We can not take back that terrible day. But we can move forward, do good works, and ask for the Lord's forgiveness.
Also, if we will insist on discussing the sacking of Antioch, it would be neglectful to ignore that two people from your own House have exterminated whole settlements.
While that does not in any way excuse or condone what happened at Antioch, it would put things in a bit of perspective.
Hypatios rises swiftly.
This is a lie, only Belgrade was exterminated and that was at the breach of an order, by a man who has not contacted the house for the entire past term and never really had any contact in the first place. He is only an official member due to a friendship with our past leader, his actions do not represent the Asteri as a whole. Check your sources before making accusations boy.
And besides, what does the past matter, we all make mistakes and yours is perfectly excusable, let us forget this and move on rather than insult each other.
Privateerkev
07-16-2008, 21:15
Makedonios raises an eyebrow at being called "boy".
Hypatios, I'd think you'd be the last man to speak on this subject. Wasn't Smyrna almost wiped out completely when you took the settlement? Oh sure you tried to cover it up, but rumors of your act have traveled far and wide.
I agree, we should move on and discuss the matters at hand. But if we insist on dragging out the past, then perhaps we should drag out the whole past and not just specific parts.
OOC: At some point during the first term, Hypatios got the "mean leader" trait which leaves me to believe he exterminated Smyrna. Of course I could always go and check the save games and see if the population dropped by a substantial amount. :clown:
Ibn-Khaldun
07-16-2008, 21:24
If I have offended you or the Order then I deeply apologize.
No matter how good commander you are there are still moments where your men start thinking for themselves and do despicable things.
I do not blame you, Grandmaster, for what happened there. What I meant was that those men who join the crusade, commoners and the like, will not lose control over themselves and do not punish the people for the deeds of their Caliph.
I am sorry for bringing some painful old things back up.
Efstathios makes a pause...
But perhaps we should talk about something different. Like the current state of Empire?
Just to clarify Smyrna was hardly even a settlement to begin with, I permitted my men to take anything valuable to pay for their own upkeep but only a few who resisited were killed, not the whole populace. Besides we now have a law to stop such monstrosities from occuring, now all the rebels-to-be and haters of the Empire are free to form armies like in Antioch and rise against us. I do not see why the killing of our enemies is such a bad thing, though from the vote I am obviously in the minority.
Privateerkev
07-16-2008, 21:34
Antypatos Hypatios brings up a very good point.
The legislation he speaks of has expired since it was only an Edict.
It is time to propose a new one.
Edict 3.2: No settlement can be exterminated. No Orthodox settlement can be sacked though sacking of Catholic or Muslim-held settlement is authorized. Crusade targets must be occupied.
This replaces the wise Edict 2.3, which has now expired, and adds in a proposal to prevent the very thing Efstathios is afraid of.
Makedonios gives a respectful head-nod to the Strator.
Stavrar steps up, slightly more nervous this time due to his much-up
I second Edict 3.2
Kosmas stands. I second Edict 3.2.
I would also like to announce my intention to join the crusade. The Christians of Egypt have already suffered many years of domination by caliphs, and this latest planned atrocity against them must be prevented.
Savvas stands up.
Gentlemen, please.
We have a war against the Seljuks, Catholic armies wandering through our Empire searching for personal glory in Jerusalem and on top of that, we have the moral obligation to bring law and order to Egypt.
Many things have happened in the past, but we have more pressing matters at hand now. If you insist on quarelling about things that have been, please do not do it during this important senate session.
Savvas turns towards Makedonios.
It doesn't happen often that I agree with the Grandmaster of the Order of St John, but the Edict he proposes speaks of wisdom.
Therefore, I second Edict 3.2. We are Romans, not barbarians!
Privateerkev
07-16-2008, 21:46
Makedonios nods to Comes Savvas.
To me, the matter is settled. Let us move forward. But if someone wishes to bring it back up, I will never shrink from discussing it. I will not run from my mistakes.
woad&fangs
07-16-2008, 21:47
I second Edict 3.2
ooc: gah, about 5 posts happened while I was making mine.
Privateerkev
07-16-2008, 21:48
*edit*
OOC:
nothing to see here...
This is absurd, by letting them live we invite them to revolt as happened in Antioch, Sinop and Zagreb. I am sure the latter was occupied and that certainly did not stop the uprising. And using the fact that some of us are of roman descent is no excuse. If we do not kill the barbarians then they will eventually become recognised Byzantines. The Romans would have killed many of you for being barbarians, they did not let them live to fight again, and that is why they were so successful.
Dear Hypatios Machonios, if acting like humans instead of animals is not one of your main concerns, then try looking at it this way: the more people we kill, the less potential taxpayers we keep.
Corpses don't pay taxes.
Savvas shrugs.
woad&fangs
07-16-2008, 21:57
Solomon rises to speak
The easy path is rarely the righteous one. If this crusade is about helping our brothers in Christ then our actions should be pure.
Privateerkev
07-16-2008, 22:00
Those places were taken by small forces. It was difficult to hold those provinces and keep the people happy.
But I believe this will be different. A mighty army is assembling for Egypt. I already know of at least 4 generals that are going on Crusade and I am sure many more will join. That is already at least a full "stack" of troops.
Dear Hypatios Machonios, if acting like humans instead of animals is not one of your main concerns, then try looking at it this way: the more people we kill, the less potential taxpayers we keep.
Corpses don't pay taxes.
Savvas shrugs.
No but we get all the money of those people, most of which would never be paid as taxes. Besides we would replace them with lawful citizens of the Empire who would pay all their taxes and more, unlike the foreigners who would do their utmost to avoid them.
Ignoramus
07-16-2008, 23:43
Caesar Ioannis Komnenos rises to address the Magnaura.
I must congratulate Markianos Ampelas for his steady hand during the past 15 years. He has served the empire and Basileus well.
I wish to announce to this assembled body that I seek to be elected to the office of Megas Logothetes.
Since the disaster of Manzikert, we have gradually regained the lost provinces and prestige torn from as at that fateful field. Now it is time to fully restore our lands. We have the men and the competent generals to be able to restore Anatolia, Armenia, and Georgia back to the Roman fold. My aim is to campaign hard against these infidel Turks, and then to restore to the light those poor souls who have become infidel.
Furthermore, I will seek to strengthen our relations with our neighbours. We cannot fight on two fronts yet, and we all know of the Frankish envy of our wealth.
The proposed crusade is a novel venture. I doubt it will do much more than prevent the Fatimids from seizing control of the whole of Palestine, but if it has God's blessing, then it shall have mine too.
Thank you, noble Senators.
Ioannis resumes his seat.
No but we get all the money of those people, most of which would never be paid as taxes. Besides we would replace them with lawful citizens of the Empire who would pay all their taxes and more, unlike the foreigners who would do their utmost to avoid them.
Although I fully agree with Savvos ek Militou, and the chivalry that doubtlessly inspied the proposed edict, what use would all those jobless foreigners be to the tax collectors?
When, in but a few years, any killed can be replaced, as Hypatios Machonios points out, by loyal citizens, whose places of work are built by money that would otherwise probably be used for sabotaging the empires efforts, whilst its trying to get the ingrates into work!
Also, why hold back our troops to such chivalry standards when our enemies may not?
To that end, I propose edict 3.2 be modified, to allow the sacking of rebellious orthadox settlements, and extermination of any settlement that rebels from the empire, or in response to any factions dishonourable acts against the empire (sabotage, extermination of our settlements if they are taken, suprise attacks or ambushes by irregulars etc)
This, I feel, should give commanders far more options than tying them down to a code of chivalry that is pointless following at all times, though I wish it was not the case, I am a realist, and see this is the best option. Until then, I cannot support edict 3.2
GeneralHankerchief
07-17-2008, 00:03
Patriarchal Representative:
I'm sure His Eminence would be very interested to know that the Caesar and candidate for Megas Logothetes regards the noble mission of the Crusade as nothing more than a "novel venture."
OverKnight
07-17-2008, 00:41
Aleksios has sat a bit dejectedley through the session. As the Crusade is announced, he grimaces slightly, though he tries to keep this hidden. The words of the Patriarchal represenative spur him into action.
Tell your master that Senators are entitled to their opinions. If he cannot personally appear to drum up support for his "unique" idea and his usurpation of the foreign policy of the Empire, then I won't have his lackeys insulting my son.
The Patriarchal Represenative is barred from speaking during this Senate Session. If the Patriarch wishes to promote this Crusade or denigrate those who dare question it, he must appear himself.
With a jerk of the Basileus's thumb, two guards flank the Patrarchal Represenative and begin to escort him out.
Ramses II CP
07-17-2008, 01:46
Vissarionas flinches at the mention of Antioch, and carefully considers his words before rising to speak.
Though I have atoned for my failure at Antioch I will make it known that I still consider it a hideous error and any man here is welcome to discuss it with me personally. To attempt to make political gains by use of that tragedy here in the Senate would, however, be cowardly.
That being said, I must also make it known that any man who treats the city of Cairo or her citizens as the people of Antioch were treated in that great disaster will answer to me. Personally. Cairo will not be sacked.
The former is simply stated, without menace or the overt implication of threat, but for those who know where to look the bright glow of religious fervor is blatantly present in Vissa's eyes.
I reject the idea of the proposed amendment. Indeed, I reject the idea of sacking or exterminating any city, any village, any wide place in the road for any reason. You who have done so may hide your actions from the Senate, from the Emperor, even from the Patriarch, but God has seen your red hands wet with the blood of the innocent. Remember that when your day comes.
I will pray that you have the chance to atone and be forgiven.
The standards of our enemies are of no concern. When have we let our enemies guard our honor? If those fools sow mindless slaughter then so much the worse when their infidel souls are dragged before the Holy Throne.
A faint sneer crosses Vissa's face, but is quickly wiped away as he returns to his seat and his quiet contemplation.
:egypt:
Privateerkev
07-17-2008, 01:54
Makedonios has been watching the proceedings. When the Patriarchal Representative gets removed, Makedonios finally stands up and addresses the Emperor.
Your Highness,
That man is His Eminence's voice in the Senate. To remove him is to give His Eminence a slap in the face. Surely we can combat ideas with other ideas. Stifling dissent doesn't seem to do anyone any good.
I see nothing wrong with debating the Caesar's stance on the Crusade. Especially since he wants to be Megas when the Crusade is under-way.
He turns to face the Caesar.
If your elected, just what would you do to support the Crusade? Your speech is short on details. You talk of taking our armies as far west as the maps record. And then you speak of us not having the resources for a war on two fronts. Well, if this is true, then what support do you intend to give the Crusade? The Crusade will need priests to go and preach the Word. When the settlements are taken, they will need to be built up. Maybe even repaired. There will be a war with Egypt to consider. Will the Order get the resources to open up a second front against the Fatimads? To forge a path to our new Egyptian lands? Will the men in Egypt get reinforced so they can hold their position? What about the navy that will need to be built to ferry reinforcements over?
Because if this Crusade will not get your full support, you should let us know now so those of us who believe in the Holy Mission can evaluate who to vote for.
I wouldn't mind more details from Comes Savvas as well but at least he has made clear that he supports this idea whole-heartedly.
My Caesar, with all due respect, your acting as if this Crusade is just a nuisance you will have to deal with that will detract from your own plans.
Finally, Makedonios turns to Lisas.
Sorry but I do not see how butchering women and children will solve "dishonorable acts" against the Empire. I will not amend my edict as you've asked. You are more than welcome to propose your own edict.
*Lisas scoffs*
punishment in the afterlife? that will make victims families or dead soldiers spouses feel better, whilst, granted, a full coin-purse will not bring them back, it does make the suffering an easier burden.
That will inspire all the mercinaries we use to fight too, promise of purgatory instead of hell, they much prefere that to loot.
If your own order makes a choice not to sack the settlements it takes, then thats its own business, however, the order does not speak for every commander in the empire, and I would much rather every commander in the empire didn't have to follow the line of an order they havn't even swore loyalty to.
I urge the honourable Makedonios Ksanthopoulos to recognise this, and change his edict to allow sacking of orthadox settlements and in extreme cases extermination to take place, since, even if he and his order find them to be barbaric, they are viable tools of war to others, and far more workable then leaving behind half an army in captured cities to keep the population, who would rebel at the first chance they get, in line.
Whilst I do grant you, it wont solve our enemies dishonour towards ourselves, but it would prevent further dishonour.
In much the same way as hanging is a most effective punishment for murder.
Doing both can save hundreds or even thousands of lives and is the lesser of two evils.
I also remind you that we are only talking about extreme cases, its not like, if allowed the freedom to raze settlements, everyone would do it.
Privateerkev
07-17-2008, 02:20
I absolutely refuse to put my name to such a bill. You would have to offer it yourself as separate legislation.
I dont think there's need for that, I trust the senetors can all see that supporting such an edict would make us a mockary on the international stage, a soft touch, if you will, who doesn't even have the earthly authority to punish its enemies, or take all the wordly goods from its own citizens that turn against it.
God even the Itallian peasants would laugh at us.
I point out to the senetors that the order is only bordered by those of diffrent faiths, in no city is there an orthadox majority, so they wouldn't be bound by its terms.
I trust, that when it comes time to vote, they will all make the decision on whats right for the empire and themselves, instead of giving away their rights, however barbaric they may be, to the order.
Privateerkev
07-17-2008, 02:41
May I remind the strator that we have had the exact same edict in effect for the entire last term, except for the part about Crusade targets.
And the sky did not fall. I'm simply renewing something we've already had, and has worked just fine for us.
If you disagree, then see that the edict fails or propose your own. But I will not change mine to allow exterminations.
AussieGiant
07-17-2008, 04:13
Apionnas shakes his head in clear displeasure as the Patriarchal Representative is removed from the chamber.
Standing he addresses the chamber.
This crusade is ill advised. While it is entirely possible that the Caliph has taken this decision, our response is simply playing into the hands of extremism.
Has anyone considered this could be an elaborate ruse to draw us into a conflict well beyond our borders?
Taking decisions like this needs to be carefully considered rather than simply blindly obeyed.
Ignoramus
07-17-2008, 04:21
Ioannis waits for the two senators to pause, before standing up to reply.
My father was quite right to remove the Patriarchal Representative, as he had overstepped his place by insulting the Basileus' family, and the right of every senator to voice his own opinion.
As for the Crusade, I will not waste the the empire's resources on aiding a foolhardy campaign. Those who feel called by God are welcome to risk their lives and fortunes, but I will not risk the stability of the empire. While I also abhor slaughter of Christians, I will not go about alienating all our neighbours to avenge these wrongs.
Senator Ksanthopoulos, your arrogance knows no bounds. You ask me whether your Order will be given resources to open a second front to "your new Egyptian lands". Have you already divided the spoils amongst your followers?
The Crusade is nothing but a nuisance which will remove valuable leadership away from where it is needed most. If you wish to fight the infidel, then fight those who we are already at war with.
Ioannis angrily resumes his seat.
Privateerkev
07-17-2008, 04:43
Makedonios stands.
Caesar, if your going to quote me, then I ask that you please get the quote right. I never said the word "yours." And I didn't mean "ours" as in the Order's land. I said "ours" as in the Empire's land. Because no matter who gets it, they will be our people. And if you will not support our people, then I ask why is it that your running?
The "second front" will be necessary to draw off Egyptian forces from the Crusade targets. And then eventually to forge a land route to Egypt.
And don't you ever dare call Antioch and Aleppo "spoils" again. Those are people your talking about.
So yes, I am very sorry that this "nuisance" has ruined your perfect plans to stretch the Empire way out in one direction but there is still the little matter of people being slaughtered. Not to mention the call from the leader of our faith.
So basically what your saying is, you will let people go on Crusade but then you will abandon them while they are over there? You just said, "Those who feel called by God are welcome to risk their lives and fortunes" and then said, "I will not waste the the empire's resources on aiding a foolhardy campaign." That is how you properly quote people by the way.
So why exactly should we vote for you? You've just promised that you'll abandon our men.
And finally, stop acting so hurt by what the Patriarch's Representative said. If you can't take criticism, then you shouldn't be in politics.
BananaBob
07-17-2008, 06:00
Nathanail has been resting his head in his hand for the length of the discussion, but now sits up and addresses the senate.
I think that we all need to observe the objective facts here. The Caliphate, whose forerunner collapsed the borders of the empire as worse as any turk, now plans to put thousands of Christians to there death as well as pious scholars to the flame and desecrate some of the holiest places to Christians.
To put it bluntly, aside for some barbarians to the north, we are the last bastion of Orthodoxy. These people who will be killed have no one to look to but us. It is our duty as Christian Byzantium to save these souls.
I have heard some talk of fanaticism and extremism, and I disagree wholeheartedly. We are not fighting a war of aggression, we are not waging war against the infidel, nor are we spreading the true word by the sword. We are protecting innocent, true Orthodox believers from the clutches of a madman. We are fighting in defense of these people.
Beyond this, all the territory to be gained was once roman possession anyway, and is coherent with our ongoing restoration.
I can see no reason to not support this honest goal, and can only assume that anyone who disagrees has some selfish goal they are not revealing.
Nathanial regains his seat.
Ituralde
07-17-2008, 06:45
While I agree that the atrocities of the bloody Caliph can not go unpunished, everybody must realize that this will be a dangerour mission towards lands far removed from the Empire. Striking at the heart of our enemy will be a devastating blow but they will bloody well hold on to their cities as well as they can! This is not for the soft-hearted and everyone who bloody decides to go should better be aware now that it will be highly risky and they might end up deep in enemy territory with little supplies!
But we also have another war to wage on the Anatolikon, one where Christian lives are also at stake. I refuse to give the Crusade a disproportionate amount of support, before we have secured our Eastern frontier. Right now as we speak there are heathens defiling the streets of the cities in our Empire. Our Priests do their best to convert the populace but this is a slow process! I think everybody has seen in 1095 what can happen if the religious integrity of our Empire is questioned. Before we don't have a strong community of faithful citizens on the Anatolikon I see no need to spread our conversion efforts even further!
Save the Christians in Cairo we will bloody well do, but we will not empty our coffers to send more than a couple of Priests to accompany these troops! If anyone is scared by this prospect he might just decide to stay home after all!
Ignoramus
07-17-2008, 07:10
Ioannis gets slowly to his feet and stares at Senator Ksanthopoulos.
You will apologise for that insult, senator, and learn some respect for the Basileus and Caesar.
Ioannis resumes his seat.
OverKnight
07-17-2008, 07:40
Aleksios glowers at Makedonios and surprisingly at Ioannis as well.
Both of you are Senators of the Roman Empire, one that has reigned on this Earth for over a thousand years. Act with some decorum before I censure you both.
Aleksios shakes his head.
Let me be perfectly clear, there will be a Crusade. (OOC: It is an event, God (TC) has willed it.) However, I will not allow it to detract from our other endeavors or bankrupt the Empire. I strongly suggest that those with commands or lands stay behind. I will also remind those who do go, that they have a duty to the Empire as well as God. Do not forsake one for the other.
Privateerkev
07-17-2008, 07:40
Makedonios stays silent.
OCC:
I wrote something very different originally because I had not seen the Emperor speak yet. Now that I see he has, I have changed my post to be something... a little less confrontational.
pevergreen
07-17-2008, 07:43
This crusade is ill advised. While it is entirely possible that the Caliph has taken this decision, our response is simply playing into the hands of extremism.
Has anyone considered this could be an elaborate ruse to draw us into a conflict well beyond our borders?
Taking decisions like this needs to be carefully considered rather than simply blindly obeyed.
My dear friend is correct! We should not blindly rush into action. Although I heartily support going. I shall, however remain on the Western Front. I implore all other Senators to make their way towards Cairo though. I shall man the Western Frontier. It may do my increasing stomach some good!
Michail sits down, after that last joke. His belly has gotten a slight bit bigger since the last Magnaura session. He greets his friends not seen for a while, with a smile on his face.
Iakovos stands sharply up.
I should think Caesar, that one of your intelligence would be able to discern between an insult and constructive criticism, and that when you say "...and the right of every senator to voice his own opinion" you also allow the other senators to voice that opinion. If you do not, then you are no better then the Patriarchal Representative you happen to have condemned, who I think had every right to in fact voice his opinion.
I also agree with The Emperor though, and I think we should actually sit down and discuss the logistics of the crusade, and decide what the empire can afford for this most Holy of missions.
Iakovos sits back down and immediately begins writing furiously.
Ignoramus
07-17-2008, 07:54
Ioannis looks suprised at his father's words, but rises to speak.
My father is right, I have lost my cool, and deserve his rebuke.
Walking over to Senator Ksanthopoulos, Ioannis extends his hand.
"I apologise for reaction, it was not befitting a Roman senator."
Privateerkev
07-17-2008, 07:57
Makedonios immediately stands up as the Caesar approaches. He extends his hand and takes the Caesar's hand.
I apologize if my words got... heated. This Crusade is a passionate subject for me. I appreciate your apology and I accept. I will try to do my part to make sure the proceedings are more... civil from now on.
With a head-bow to the Emperor, Makedonios resumes his seat after the Caesar walks away.
Markianos, having held little interest in the discussion, speaks quietly to the Asteri section.
Ah, I can smell the love.
He takes a deep breath through his nose.
Mmmm, smells like wild roses. Pink ones.
Savvas stands up and faces the Grandmaster
You ask me about my plans for the coming 15 years?
I fully support the Crusade. Not because I am a religeous fanatic, you all know me better than that, but because I detest religeous fanatics. Fanatics like the Caliph who decides to kill people because they are Christians.
So, let their be no doubt, I support the Crusade.
But, I also realise that the Catholics who are marching on Jerusalem are a threat for our Empire and thus our western and northern lands need some more troops, just enough to convince the catholics not to take a detour to Constantinople.
I am also of the opinion that the War against the Seljuks needs to continue. The damage inflicted upon us by the Turks in the past must be avenged and the shame needs to be wiped out with Turkish blood.
Allthough exterminating cities goes too far for my taste, after all, we are Romans and thus the only civilised nation in the world, I am also realistic.
It is my opinion that all Seljuk cities should be sacked and the most important reason is : money.
We need a strong border with the Catholics, we need priests and other... 'agents' to escort the crusaders and the armies fighting the Seljuks will need the support of our Empire as well.
The Empire needs money!
Grandmaster, I know that I have seconded your edict 3.2, but I urge you to rephrase it as follows:
No settlement can be exterminated. Whenever a settlement is taken, the conqueror is obliged to sack it. Crusade targets must be occupied.
Iakovos stand ups again
With all due respect Senator Savvas, your proposal is asking far to much. If you wish to discuss realism, then take into consideration that some would absolutely refuse to follow such an edict based upon their own principals. A ban on extermination is wonderful, but we should also limit the sacking of cities. At the very least, we should limit such activity to Turkish territory only, and not require the Crusaders to sack Cairo or Alexandria as well.
Ignoramus
07-17-2008, 08:57
Ioannis Komnenos, having heard Savvas' speech, rises to speak.
Senators, some of you may think my words that the Crusade was a "novel venture" were harsh. It is because it is a distraction from the most important issue at the moment, the reconquest of Anatolia.
Some of you may feel confident of besting the Turk, after considering the great strides Senator Ampelas has taken in the past 15 years. But it folly to underestimate our Turkish foes. Have you forgotten Manzikert and its consequences?
The Fatimid Caliph may be seeking to provoke us by butchering Christians, but we should not use resources intended for the Anatolian campaign for assisting this venture. Here we can learn something from our Frankish neighbours. The Bishop of Rome called a Crusade upon Jerusalem, and those who chose to take up the cross did so, bringing with them their own retainers and pilgrims wishing to embark for the Levant. Yet we do not see droves of Franks or Germans streaming towards Jerusalem.
This is what intend to do regarding the Egyptian Crusade. Those who feel it is their duty to avenge the wrongs done to Christians will take their soldiers and any volunteers they can raise, but there shall be no compensation to those houses who commit soldiers to the Crusade. This Crusade was called by His Eminence, not by my father. As such, it a religious campaign, and not a state one. As such, the empire will not commit soldiers to this venture.
You must realise that if the Crusade should fail, non-direct involvement still allows for the negotiation of a truce with Fatimids, should the worst happen. We must not commit all our eggs in one basket.
Finally, we have no idea of the strength of the Fatimid Caliphate. There have been no spies sent to find out the strengths of our enemy.
Ioannis resumes his seat.
OverKnight
07-17-2008, 09:00
Aleksios speaks.
Ideally, the fate of a settlement would be a decision left to the commander of the army who takes it. It seems both sides in this matter hold strong views and would object to being forced to follow the opposite policy.
I would never wish to see a city exterminated, but sometimes sacking is necessary, or at least expedient.
_Tristan_
07-17-2008, 09:02
Listening to the proceedings so far, Methodios perks up as he hears the words of Savvas.
I do not think Edict 3.2 should be rephrased along your proposal. Sacking always involves some part of killing as owners try to defend their goods. The purpose of this Edict is to prevent such pointless killings. Its current wording already allows for the sacking of Muslim cities. Your wording would allow for the killing of Orthodox citizens, something which I will not support.
As to the matter of the Crusade, I find it funny how many of you are today ready to open a second front so far from our lands when some years ago when I warned of the treachery of our Catholic neighbours and the need to wage a preventive war against them (a war we could have forced them to declare), a war fought on our doorstep, people used to laugh at me. See where your laughs got us ? Bucharest and Belgrade threatened, Zagreb and Sinop fallen... Now a Catholic crusade marches through our lands and even threatened us of war but all the eyes are turned southwards and overseas to act in the protection of Christians from abroad while we may not even be able to protect our own brothers...
Still, I agree that the Caliph should be punished for what he did. And I am prepared to ride to Egypt to punish him at swordpoint myself if need be.
At this point, I have not yet reached my decision on whether I will join or not. Though I am now landless, I still feel I and others may be needed to defend our homeland from Catholic invasion.
If enough of our generals remain in Greece, I will gladly join knowing that our heartland will be aptly defended. Until then, I will stay.
Zigavinos puts down the book he usually reads during the sessions, and turns to look at Methodios.
Are such killings pointless? The settlements and most of the people we take are enemies of the Empire, no matter what their former loyalties. Why should we endanger ourselves to show mercy to the great-grandsons of loyal subjects when the great-grandsons themselves are enemies of the Empire? Think on that for a moment.
However, the Caesar is right to focus on Anatolia. Not so long ago the Seljuks invaded us and shattered our eastern holdings. Generations later, we are striking back and taking what was once ours. However, this is not liberation, this is conquest. Call it reconquest if you like, but it is conquest none-the-less. The people in the settlements we take, Seljuk and other, do not throw open the gates in a joy and embrace the Empire again. They shoot arrows and fight us in the streets until the bitter end. They hate us! Yet some of you think that if we show mercy to the people, there will be no problems. Those of you who think that life in a dream-world. Even if we show mercy to all who oppose us and occupy every settlement, the hatred remains for decades. Every soldier who mans the gates and patrols the walls has to look inwards instead of outwards. Every time they walk down the street, the hatred might claim them at sword point. It is strength that awes people, not mercy. Hypatios and I have long campaigned in Anatolia, and time and time again we've seen the only way to defeat our enemy is to destroy our enemy. Exterminating every man, woman and child is not the way, but those who fight against us? Must mercy be shown to them?
Ignoramus
07-17-2008, 13:17
As Ioannis takes a brief exit from the Magnaura, a page reads a document from the Caesar's bench.
"I, Ioannis Komnenos, hereby propose Charter Amendment 3.1.
Charter Amendment 3.1: The two offices of Lord High Chancellor and Lord High Steward, as well as the Privy Seal, can be assigned by the Basileus to any non-family member. Only one of them may be assigned to each general, and each confers a +1 influence in Senate voting. If the Basileus chooses to keep them himself, there is no influence bonus."
_Tristan_
07-17-2008, 13:21
Waiting for Zigavinos to finish speaking, Methodios then rises and adresses him.
By exterminating our enemies, we demean ourselves... We are worth more than this... But do not mistake me : here I plead for the civilians, and the civilians only... Most of them suffer whatever rule they submit to, ours or those of our enemies... Let us not add to their grief...
I'll take Zagreb as an example : true, there was some rioting when we claimed the town (OOC : due to the fact that being claimed in the rebels turn there was no way to set taxes) but order was quickly restored and peace would have followed but for the rebellion which forced us to sell it to the Hungarians... I never felt an ounce of fear nor any of my men walking through town because they knew that I had an iron hand in a velvet glove...
If we go on killing pointlessly, I maintain, the opposition will only grow and not weaken... Like a reed, the people can bow a long way, but as soon as you release your pressure, they will unbow with a force you'll have difficulty countering... Show them some mercy and soon they will begin to see you not as an oppressor but as a friend...
As to those who take the field against us, it belongs to each of us to question ourself about the way we deem fit to deal with these either through execution, ransom or mercy... I wouldn't dictate to each of you his conduct on the field of battle, I know too much how war sometimes must dictate our conduct.
Savvas looks at Zigavinos.
Indeed, the Caesar is right when he calls the war against the Seljuks a priority.
But Zigavinos, you are wrong when you say that those of us who are not in favour of cruel attrocities live in a dreamworld.
We are Romans and should follow higher standards then the barbarians. Exterminating the poplutation of settlements is barbaric.
You speak of the fact that the Seljuks hate us. Yes, they hate us and their hatred will remain for decades. But if we are going to kill all women and children in their cities, they will not hate us for decades, but for centuries!
Besides, as I said before, we need all the money we can get! We all know that sacking gives the most short-term profits, it helps raising the public order because the population sees we mean business and it has the advantage that most of our future taxpayers survive.
Savvas smiles belittling.
Or does my esteemed colleague wants us Senators to start up our own farms and trading business to provide the empire with the necessary florins?
_Tristan_
07-17-2008, 13:28
Methodios bows to the Caesar.
Pardon, your Highness, but it seems your proposed Amendment is without cause as it is already within the powers of the Basileus to grant those offices to Senators he deemed worthy enough to hold them.
All I see here is a way to restrict the powers of your esteemed father or yours one day, should God call your father by his side...
I second Charter Amendment 3.1.
Methodios bows to the Caesar.
Pardon, your Highness, but it seems your proposed Amendment is without cause as it is already within the powers of the Basileus to grant those offices to Senators he deemed worthy enough to hold them.
All I see here is a way to restrict the powers of your esteemed father or yours one day, should God call your father by his side...
OOC: But they don't add an influence bonus in the Senate now, do they? Or am I wrong?
OOC: CA 3.1 is perfectly fine. It makes 2 changes to the current system. First, it adds a +1 Influence bonus to those two titles. Second, it prevents anyone except the Basileus from holding them both at the same time.
_Tristan_
07-17-2008, 13:46
OOC : I never said it was not fine only that it restricts somewhat the powers of the Basileos...:yes:
The Charter Amendment does have a cause, dear Methodios, since it gives the Basileus the opportunity to grant more influence to the Senators he deems worthy.
Privateerkev
07-17-2008, 14:55
Makedonios looks slightly annoyed.
Are we debating slaughter yet again? And does it always have to be discussed in the cold hard terms of economics?
These are people. Even if they are different people, they are still people. Furthermore, how are we supposed to show them the Light of the Lord if we keep killing them?
And if we insist on talking in pure economic terms, leaving the population alive, so they will support a larger settlement, is much better than killing them. They other options give a short term boost at the cost of a long term lag in tax revenue and support for more advanced buildings.
His features soften.
As for the proposed CA, I believe it should give influence that still has to be allowed by someone's position. Like a royal marriage. It should be considered what they call "stat influence." Only finishing a term as Megas gives an automatic +1 influence. And I doubt the holders of these titles will do anything near the hard work a Megas does.
Just letting titles automatically give influence in voting makes them overpowered. The receivers don't have to do anything for their automatic influence, unlike the Megas.
I humbly recommend remaking the CA to look as follows:
ThisisnotaCA X.X: Rule 3.5 is reworded as such: 3.5 – Influence: Each Senator’s voting power is equivalent to his total Influence, as defined by Rule 2.7. No Senator’s Influence may ever be lower than 1. For the purposes of determining Stat Influence, a Senator can gain 1 point of Stat Influence for each of the following conditions that he meets: (a) 5+ ranks of Command (b) 10 ranks of Command (c) 5+ ranks of Chivalry or Dread (d) 10 ranks of Chivalry or Dread (e) 10 ranks of Loyalty (f) 8+ ranks of Piety (g) 20+ total stat points (h) 30+ total stat points (i) 40 total stat points (j) Senator’s name is modified by a trait title that bestows more negative than positive stat points (i.e. the Mad) (k) Senator is married to a Byzantine Empire Princess (l) Senator possesses the title of Lord High Chancellor, Lord High Steward, or Privy Seal.
This means the Senator would still need to hold the position to make use of this influence. And then the part in the Caesar's CA about only giving one per person is not needed. Because, if someone did have multiple titles, they would need a position high enough to make use of the "stat influence."
Savvas smiles at Makedonios.
Grandmaster, in the Senate we make laws, we don't do maths...
OOC: :clown:
woad&fangs
07-17-2008, 15:39
A breathless messenger enters the Magnaura
gasp, weeze Strators! Runners from the province of Antioch have informed me that a large Fatamid raiding party has gathered in the countryside southeast of that city!
The messenger is lead to a table and given water.
Privateerkev
07-17-2008, 15:43
Makedonios looks surprised at this news.
What!?!
I have not heard of this. Where did you get this information from?
OOC: I'm stuck at work without access to the save. Can someone with access please let me know if TC has spawned a deathstack outside Antioch? :laugh4:
Ibn-Khaldun
07-17-2008, 15:59
Senators,
If it would be possible not to change your views after every few minutes. I really would appreciate that.. Saying one minute that he supports the crusade and then few minutes later that he does not give any resources to the Crusaders.. well.. that is just shallow..
He looks towards Caesar while saying this..
But about the other things mentioned here ..
I do not like extermination. But sacking is sometimes a necessity. Still I like the Edict proposed by the Grandmaster Ksanthopoulos.
He nods to Makedonios..
Also.. the war against Seljuks is just starting but to me it is already over.. The objective was to get back the provinces in Anatolia. This means Iconium, Caesarea and Adana. Iconium is under siege by the Asteri forces. Perhaps Adana is taken by the Orders knights already but that I do not know.
Efstathios looks towards the Orders table to get confirmation but continues in the same time ...
So I do not see why does the "Anatolian Campaign" be the top priority unless there are some hidden agendas in it.
Just one thing more at the moment. We need some kind of policy to deal the Catholic Crusades.
Should we block all routes to our lands to their armies..
Or..
Let them march through our Empire without any restrictions.
I have said it before but .. Somehow a Catholic Crusader army in our land makes me feel very uncomfortable.
Efstathios takes his seat.
Privateerkev
07-17-2008, 15:59
An aide give Makedonios a report.
Ah yes, it seems a small raiding party has made it's way past the Templars. We'll dispatch the Fatimid army in the opening phase of the war.
Makedonios then nods to Efstathios.
The assault on Adana will commence as soon as the Senate adjourns and I can get back to my command. The castle is under siege and siege engine are being built as we speak. The castle is guarded by one Turkish noble and his bodyguards. There is a Turkish army nearby but I do not believe they will be a problem. We'll simply rush the castle and beat the reinforcing army to the gate. I am glad that I was able to pull away Turkish forces that would otherwise be standing in the way of House Asteri.
AussieGiant
07-17-2008, 16:45
Standing Apionnas speaks:
I second CA 3.1
I find it highly irregular that we can be so mortified with Orthodox deaths inflicted, POTENTIALLY, by the Caliph, yet we have just tabled a law in which sacking Arabic provinces is allowed.
If what the Caliph has done is in fact confirmed, then he should be condemned by this Chamber, but equally we should be able to look at ourselves first and assess how our own behaviour can be viewed by those not of our mind.
The decisions of war and conquest should not be authorised or mandated by the clergy of any nation. Some of you have started the objective assessment of what is actually needed to survive and win this so called crusade. I commend these men, because it will not be faith, or zeal that feeds, cloths, arms and trains men for war...that is the job of generals.
It is a short spanning empire that allows it nose to be lead by hands not of it's own!!
Privateerkev
07-17-2008, 16:59
Makedonios turns to Apionnas.
I abhor any sacking. But politcal reality is what it is. I believe it would be easier to simply pass the same legislation that we've already passed before, rather than try to pass new and more restrictive legislation. Edict 3.2 is simply a renewal of Edict 2.3 with the added protection for Crusade targets.
As for the sacking of Muslim targets, even though it is allowed in Edict 3.2, I assure you it is forbidden among the men of the Order. Any general in the Order who attempts to use Edict 3.2 as an excuse will find himself in a spot of trouble. Therefore, I do not believe that the sacking provision if 3.2 will lead to a dramatic increase in the sacking of Muslim settlements. Everyone bordering Muslim settlements has shown restraint in this matter.
The Caesar's House has occupied every settlement it has taken. I trust the men leading Asteri's armies will show mercy to the Turkish people they conquer. Priests are wandering Turkish lands as we speak to spread the Word and ensure the armies of Asteri are welcomed more warmly. The Crusade Targets will be occupied. And the rest of the Muslim lands are bordered by the Order. And I have already given my assurances on that matter. Aleppo was peacefully occupied and Adana will follow in just a few short weeks.
If I thought a general "no sacking" edict could pass in this chamber, I would propose it. But, unfortunately, I am not so hopeful. So, I propose a renewal of an edict that is less than perfect. But it is better than nothing. And practically, I seriously doubt there will be the sacking of Muslim settlements for reasons I have already laid out.
AussieGiant
07-17-2008, 17:25
Apionnas inclines his head towards Makedonios as he speaks.
Your words are convincing my lord.
Please note, I make my statements not out of any belief that they be necessarily right or wrong, but simply as a person who is able to very easily place myself in the position of how certain other nations can view us.
Before making his next remark Apionnas casts his eyes across the whole chamber.
However the legislation stands as it is worded. Therefore it identifies Muslims specifically as a collection of nations that can be sacked by this Empire. I tell you now that this is more than enough for 'others' to see our opinion on the matter.
YET, here we are acting with shock and outrage, because word has reached us, that another nation, may, kill Orthodox and Catholic lives.
Pausing, he places a clenched mailed glove forcefully on the bench in front of him.
In fact what WE have decided to do is call a Crusade against that nation for those alleged actions.
Some may wonder just who is governing this Empire if such a response is deemed rational by this body of men.
Privateerkev
07-17-2008, 18:14
Let us not equate what the Caliph is doing with "sacking".
Sacking is the appropriation of wealth from a settlement that tends to lead in the deaths of those who guard their own wealth. While abhorant, it is not what the Caliph has ordered.
According to His Eminence, the Caliph has ordered the extermination of every Christian man, woman, and child in Cairo. This isn't killing those in the name of plunder. This is the most brutal form of murder. Even those who engage in sacking tend to avoid killing women and children.
Furthermore, the Caliph is going to destroy our ancient Holy sites. This is a direct attack on our Faith.
So, edict 3.2 is not a hypocritical case of supporting what we are also condemning. It is supporting what I believe to be evil, but if there is a scale of such matters, it is a "lesser evil" than what the Caliph is planning.
And others keep bringing up that the Caliph has not yet done these things as some sort of excuse for moderation. Should we wait until he slaughters every Christian woman, man, and child before we act?
I trust the man who gathered this information. And I trust His Eminence to analyze that information and then call us to action. If they say this is about to happen, then I believe it is about to happen.
AussieGiant
07-17-2008, 18:38
So be it Senator Makedonios.
Let us see how things develop.
_Tristan_
07-17-2008, 19:11
Methodios stands to adress the Caesar once again.
While I could agree with CA 3.1 as it gives more influence to Senators favored by our Basileos, I would prefer it be redrafted along the lines stated by the Grandmaster of the Order.
What I don't understand is the will of the Caesar to deny family members the chance of being chosen by the Basileos : is he so afraid of his younger brothers being favored over him ?
Why deny Kosmas Mavrozomis the chance to hold one of these offices ? Why deny it to Ioannis Kalameteros ?
I'd like to hear why our Caesar wishes to restrict these honours...
Ibn-Khaldun
07-17-2008, 19:14
If we could continue and leave Crusade where it is then...
Isn't there really no other important things to discuss??
Efstathios looks around with surprise...
Privateerkev
07-17-2008, 19:19
Makedonios raises an eyebrow when Methodios speaks. He quickly looks over the parchment every senator received decribing CA 3.1.
Senator Methodios is right. It does restrict the titles to non-family members. So, according to the Caesar's CA, you can't be a family member, and you don't have to hold land. So basically, the lowest ranking among us can gain as much automatic influence as someone who worked hard during a whole Megas term.
My proposed amendment to CA 3.1 would eliminate both of these problems. Any person, family member or not, could have these titles. And they would have to have land to gain the influence from it. My amendment would not limit the Emperor from giving titles to Strators. But they would not get the "stat influence" until they were a Domestikos.
Which seems only proper.
Ibn-Khaldun
07-17-2008, 19:35
Makedonios is right. Any person should have the chance to get those titles. I support him in this matter. Even though I am one of those landless Strators and probably would not get the "stat influence" for a long time.
Efstathios smiles..
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