LotR - The Magnaura [Archive] - Page 5

deguerra

08-05-2008, 00:52

I am glad to see things are moving on all fronts of debate once again.

Regarding the Caesar: While I can understand the need to strike at our foes, it is not always prudent to do so at the detriment of one's own defences. I am not fully confident in my position as the sole thing standing between an unknown number of Turks in a fortified city and western Anatolia. I would be most grateful for any assistance that could be provided.

Regarding the organisation the questions that have been asked are good ones. Strator Makedonios' list of charges are quite accurate, to which I would only add that they threatened my infant children, just to demonstrate the lows they would stoop to.

Because I had a good relationship with the late Strator Ampelas I would like to note that as far as I have been able to ascertain, many Strators were approached at one stage or another, and I never found any proof that Strator Ameplas' connection went beyond that.

I also happen to have a great deal of respect for Strator Vringas, and would caution anyone from making judgments and decisions based on the words of this woman, who, while clearly having some knowledge, seems unable or unwilling to provide any sort of concrete insights.

Finally, must Iakovos really be represented in the Senate by his wife? I understood this august body to be one weighed in tradition and formality, not some sort of discussion circle where husband and wife are interchangeable. I realize Anna has spoken here on my behalf on one occasion, but she did so only that once, only because I myself was indisposed and only because of the great importance of her report.

ULC

08-05-2008, 04:51

Veronica closes her eyes as she listens to the politician's discuss the matters at hand.

"First, I would like to address Senator Kalameteros, whom I'd like to thank for his hospitality. I answered the questions posed to me fairly, and if it has not occurred to you that I stated that the Organization has any equipment available to the Empire, and that it has been withdrawing funds from corrupt Imperial money counters, then this will: the Organization long ago, even before Symeons coup, began placing it's members within Imperial armies and recruiting soldiers into the Organization, and currently, a significant portion are still on Organization payroll. I can also lead you to the Organization's burned out library in Cannakle, although i do not know what you will find in there."

Veronica glares at Hypatios though.

"Yes, I knew of the thing called Grigorias. Aleksander recruited him on the basis that he be put under watch, since we did not trust him, but nor could we leave him to his own devices. Grigorias was, I must put emphasis on that, was an Imperial diplomat. If you will check your records, I believe he was exiled for his "eccentric" tastes and "conduct unbecoming a representative of the Imperial court." Considering you Hypatios are still here, then Grigorias must be a man ten fold more terrible then even you."

Veronica gazes across the room, looking at each Senator in turn.

"I hear talk of expelling me, or sending for Iakovos. May I ask why you wish to pull a man who has put his faith in me to represent him to the fullest from the frontlines to discuss something that he has already known? I do believe it was him and Grandmaster Makedonios who brought up the glaring weakness of the southern Anatolian and Levant front. My husband has chosen to stay in Adana, since he sees no point in debating something that there truly is no discussion too, and defend the people as best he can, with what little men he has."

OverKnight

08-05-2008, 15:00

The Basileus reenters the Magnaura. He appears gaunt and tired. His fingers are ink-stained.

The loss of Markianos Ampelas is a tragedy. He was a good man and a capable Megas Logothetes. I came to respect him a great deal. We are poorer without him.

The Lady Veronica is under Imperial protection. Please be courteous to her during her stay in the Senate.

The Basileus slowly turns, his gaze sweeping the chamber.

The Empire faces a dire threat. Hordes of infidels, driven by religious fervor, will try to storm our lands, making their way to this very city. At the same time, many of our men are committed overseas.

There has been much division in this chamber. We have argued over the merits of the Crusade, over pride of place when it comes to recruitment and buildings, and searched for traitors in our midst.

In the face of the Jihad, we must cast aside these differences and defeat our true enemies. Come the four corners of the Earth, if we stand united, we will defeat them all.

Aleksios stands grim and resolute.

I say let them come. Let them dash themselves against our walls, bloody themselves against our bravery and die when faced with our valour and arms. We will emerge from this crucible stronger than before. The Empire reforged and reborn, with this time of troubles serving as the birth pangs of a new age of triumph.

We will persevere. We will win. Because we are the greatest Empire the world has ever seen.

The Basileus finishes with a hushed intensity.

We ARE Rome!

GeneralHankerchief

08-05-2008, 15:24

*During the last speech, the Patriarchal Representative lets out a snort and, chuckling, makes his way out of the building.*

Kagemusha

08-06-2008, 17:59

Messenger enters the diet and reads from a note.

"I have scattered a small rebellion in Nicae. Released the few survivors.- Ioannis Kantakouzinos"

Askthepizzaguy

08-06-2008, 18:06

A messenger arrives and informs the Imperial Senate that Efstratios Monomachos has been spotted near Durazzo, apparently a captive of the rebels in the region.

Given his doomed state and his recent departure from the Senate, the unnamed Senator from the house of Tepaki (in place of Monomachos) suggests that we simply ignore him and leave him to his fate.

Warmaster Horus

08-07-2008, 01:33

Senators, I will depart at the soonest to join Ioannis Kalameteros' army. I think the reason is self-explanatory.

Privateerkev

08-08-2008, 02:52

Makedonios walks into the Senate in his armor.

I bring news from the front. Marshall Armatos was in overall command of a battle involving both of our armies versus the 2 Jihad armies. Unfortunately, due to years of blatant neglect, we did not have the resources to defeat these armies. But, while severely outnumbered, we did make a dent. I personally slew the general in one of the armies. Hopefully, without their general, this army will drop out of the Jihad. So one half-strength army, led by the Sultan himself, is still headed here.

Privateerkev

08-09-2008, 05:45

Makedonios returns from the front.

I come to deliver a new report. The Order has just met the second Fatimid Jihad in battle north of Antioch. The army has been destroyed and the Caliph was slain in combat. The first Jihad army, leaderless from the last battle, are now in boats. And the second is gone. Fatimid forces in the area are no more.

But they will be back. Our armies are severely depleted. I ask again for the Caesar to reinforce our armies. I noticed he started a church last year in Yeravan. While I always welcome the spreading of the faith, I am afraid that the Caesar has yet again broken the Rules. Army recruitment must come before any building. Period. No exceptions.

I am afraid the Caesar is only paying attention to one corner of the Empire during his term. One corner has had settlements built in it and armies reinforced. He's even conquered new territory. Meanwhile, the rest of us are left with barren settlements and remnants of armies. Forced to defend the Empire with what we can scrape together or squeeze out of a reluctant Megas.

For the good of the Empire, I again call upon the Senate to Impeach Caesar Ioannis. We can not trust him to lead us through these times. Lets get someone in charge who will look after the entire Empire, instead of just one corner.

OOC: Please reinforce our armies please before you spend on anything else. :beam:

Ramses II CP

08-09-2008, 06:19

A bored sounding scribe reads another letter from Vissarionas ek Lesvou into the record.

I write to denounce the Caesar once again for his willful neglect of our laws and to once again ask that his father, our Emperor, act in the best interests of the Empire and call an emergency Senate session to impeach him. The gross incomptence demonstrated yet again is just further evidence of the utter inability of the Caesar to...

Here the scribe gets a nasty look on his face, rolls his eyes, and says,

Blah, blah, blah, no reason to waste anymore time on this lot's whining. Not like any of us would ever come to harm from it! Hail the Caesar! Say, send some more opium back from Yerevan soon, eh?

So saying the scribe wads the letter up and casually discards it in a corner.

:egypt:

Ignoramus

08-09-2008, 07:47

A Komnenodoukai page leaves the chamber.

GeneralHankerchief

08-09-2008, 19:10

Patriarchal Representative:

Right, I'd like to straighten out a few things:

First of all, did anybody not expect this sort of pandering and creative interpretation from the Caesar when they put him in office? I will refer you fine gentlemen to his initial announcement (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1969395&postcount=449) that he was standing for Megas. Even there, in a time when most politicians weave a blanket of promises saying that they will create miracles that not even Jesus Christ could perform, the Caesar clearly mapped out his supporters-only agenda. He even went as far to declare the Holy Crusade itself as nothing more than a "novel venture", but I shall speak no more of this, as the subject has already gotten me banned once and it has been proven that the Crusade has not drained the Empire's coffers in the slightest.

No, Senators, you knew what you were getting when you elected the Caesar, and don't try to say otherwise. What concerns me most, however, is not that a politician is *gasp* pandering, for it is in their nature to pander the same way as it is in a mosquito's nature to suck blood and as it is in a rat's nature to spread its pestilence throughout; but rather, it is the Caesar that is doing the pandering. Gentlemen, keep in mind that this man will eventually rule over us all. When that day occurs, he is charged to be a fair ruler, acting always for the best of the Empire. I don't see that happening. Do you? Not when he scoffs at Edicts, rules of the Charter, and even religion itself, considering them all nothing more than petty impediments in his quest to rub his stinking boot in his opponents' faces.

What is even more intriguing, or perhaps terrifying, depending on how one looks at it, is how the Caesar became such an incapable leader in the first place. After all, his candidacy was greatly assisted by many, foremost of all, his very own father, the Basileus Alexios...

...Ah yes, his father. The man heard the same speeches we all did, Senators, back at the start of the most recent Magnaura session. Surely he was able to discern his son's true agenda, the same as the rest of us. But he did nothing, endorsing his son's transgressions against half the Empire. Indeed, he did more than endorse. He voted for his son, threw out those who would speak otherwise against him, and has stood idly by whilst the Caesar has overseen the neglect, as promised, and whilst half the Senators in the Empire were screaming for his impeachment. This calls into question the Basileus's neutrality and competency to lead the Empire much like it does the Caesar's. It appears to me, Senators, that the apple has not fallen far from the tree. Unfortunately for us, we are subject to both men's whims and otherwise.

Secondly, I would like to bring the topic of the Organization into the forefront of people's minds once again. It has been proven that, during the extermination of Iconium, the party responsible has been seen working with reported members of the Organization, never mind that they have also been rumored to be behind assassination attempts, bribery, sabotage, and the like, generally undermining the fabric of the Empire, *sotto voce* not like it needs help. Whatever goals they may have, it has become clear to His Eminence and me that their aims are directly opposite that of Orthodoxy's teachings as well as good, moral, law-abiding life. These members need to be more aggressively persecuted and their aims need to be laid bare for all to see.

Ibn-Khaldun

08-09-2008, 19:55

Ioannis, the represantor of Efstathios, sighs with relief..
SO far no one haven't been even little interested about the incident with the Annios Solomon's ship..
Ioannis hopes that this news will be soon forgotten by people because of the Jihad threat...

TinCow

08-10-2008, 14:25

*The Protosecretes posts a notice at the entrance of the largely empty Magnaura.*

Scouts from the Crusade have confirmed that Kosmas Mavrovias perished in a failed assault on Alexandria. The exact circumstances surrounding his death remain unknown, but his army has been completely destroyed and the city is no longer under siege. In accordance with Kosmas Mavrovias' last known wishes, the province of Scopia is now the property of his adopted son, Methodios Tagaris (Tristan de Castelreng).

Ibn-Khaldun

08-10-2008, 16:36

This is a sad day to all of us. Kosmas Mavrozomis was a great man. Just like Markianos Ampelas who died not so long ago. The House of Asteri will remember their deeds and will not forget them!
My Lord Efstathios will conquer the city of Alexandria to the honor of Kosmas Mavrozomis!

Ioannis sits and sigs..
Another one have died..
Another member of the Asteri..
Who will be the next?

Privateerkev

08-10-2008, 18:20

Makedonios hears the news and grows pale.

So the rumors are true...

We've lost a good man today. A man of God. A selfless man.

Kosmas was always giving of himself. He formed House Asteri. Nurtured it through it's crucial first steps. When he felt he could not lead effectively, he stepped down and let someone else take over. When the Crusade called, Kosmas answered.

I am proud to call him my friend. I don't know why he assaulted the city when reinforcements were on the way. It will be left as one of life's many mysteries. But I do know that Kosmas is with God now.

Sleep well my friend, sleep well...

After bowing his head for a good amount of time, Makedonios adjourns to his chambers where he is not seen for some time.

Kagemusha

08-10-2008, 18:30

My condolences to the family and friends of Kosmas Mavrovias. Yet another noble soul has fallen in a fight which could have been prevented. Roman blood stains the hands which initiated this "crusade".

Andres

08-10-2008, 18:48

A tired man enters the Magnaura.

My master, Comes Savvas ek Militou, reports that the army besieging Corinth has been defeated. 178 prisoners were ransommed back for 768 florins.

The Crown Prince of the Fatimid Empire has been slain in the battle.

The messenger turns to the tables of the Asteri.

My master offers his sincere condolences with your loss. He would have offered you his condolences personally, but unfortunately, he got severely injured during the battle near Corinth and was not able to make the journey towards Contantinople.

The messenger sits down to drink some water.

Kagemusha

08-10-2008, 19:24

" I applaud Savvas ek Militou, for his victory against the Egyptians in Corinth. He has shown that attacking our heartlands will result in swift defeat. I hope he will soon recover from his wounds and i will send a barrel of wine which has been added medical herbs to him, so his recovery will be more swift."

Smowz

08-10-2008, 20:52

A rich Genoase merchentman hands a scroll to one of the speakers at the magnuara

Nevoulas ek Philadelphius regrets that he cannot be here to offer his sorrow in person, he is unfortunately stranded on Rhodes. He paid a Merchentman a large sum of his personal wealth to bring a short message here.

The House of the Asteri for so long a shining hope for the empire has now suffered grave misfortunes losing good men in honor for the empire. I owe Kosmas a great debt for bringing me into the fold and allowing me to be part of what I hoped would be the great resurrection of the empire. The ideals have been severly tested recently and I believe the deaths of the great men of the Asteri is divine punishment for the gross display of incompetence and despicable behavior of others.

I pray for all of our souls.

Nevoulas ek Philadelphius

OverKnight

08-11-2008, 02:36

The Basileus speaks.

The loss of Senator Mavrozomis is a bitter one. He lead his men on Crusade with panache, outpacing his fellows. It is a terrible shame that such fervor may have contributed to his demise. He was a good man and a selfless leader. I will miss him.

Aleksios pauses respectfully for a moment.

I wish to congratulate the Senate on recent victories against the Egyptians. Senator Ksanthopoulos and the Order have performed valiantly in the Levant helping to shield this very city. I hope the Megas Logothetes quickly and fully replenishes their armies.

I am also grateful to Savvas ek Militiou. With my army needed here, he managed to repel an invasion in the west with the few resources he had with assistance from the Asteri. His victory is a testament to his skill and to constructive cooperation between the Houses.

Privateerkev

08-12-2008, 02:49

Makedonios gives a report to the Senate.

I have looked over troop reports and I am not happy with what I see. The Order's two armies are supposed to number 12 total units. Because of losses against the Jihad, we only have 8 and most of those are severely depleted.

By law, the Caesar must recruit to replace and replenish these units. Do you know how many units he recruited for us this year? One... Just one. A unit of archers in Nicosia. But I know for a fact the Caesar has recruited elsewhere. Looking at records, Trebizond added two archers and put them in a fort nearby. Those archers were not needed for any private army owned by the Caesar's House.

Therefore, since the Caesar recruited for a non-legally mandated army before finishing recruitment for legally mandated armies, he has, yet again, broken the rules.

I ask... again... that we impeach this man. This term has only served to benefit him and his House at the rest of our expense. He has poured all of our resources into building in his own settlements and raising himself a large army in Cannakkale.

Meanwhile he has simply let Jihads wander around the Empire. The Turkish one is somewhere in Anatolia. He could have taken care of it by now but it was far more important to stretch his holdings out as far as possible.

How long will we let his rampant law-breaking stand?

Ferret

08-12-2008, 10:14

For once I agree with you Makedonios, the man is an incompetent fool. But the only man with authority enough to call a session is the Emperor and he would hardly impeach his own son. I dread the day this man becomes our ruler, this Empire may well collapse...

OverKnight

08-12-2008, 11:36

Aleksios raises an eyebrow and fixes Hypatios with a stare.

Do not speak so lightly about what would be a horrific event. The Empire has lasted over a thousand years and survived much worse than our current problems. It would require something quite. . .catastrophic to make it fall.

The Basileus pauses, weighing his words.

I am disappointed that the Order's armies have not been fully reinforced. The Levant may be at the end of a tenous line of supply, but surely some troops could be found, even locally recruited.

However, with a new Senate Session drawing so close, I do not see the utility of an Emergency Session.

Concerned Senators will be free to propose any safeguards they see fit then.

The Basileus returns to his silence, looking old and careworn.

Andres

08-12-2008, 13:02

Savvas enters the building, helped by Kristophoros.

I shouldn't travel in this condition, but oh well, here I am.

Thank you for your kind words, dear Basileus, fellow Senators.

Savvas bows. He raises a goblet of wine to Ioannis Kantakouzinos.

And thank you for your gift, Ioannis. Your wine made the pain of my wounds bearable.

He sips from the wine and puts down the goblet.

We lost important men and I'd like to personally offer the House of Asteri my condolences.

I also want to thank House Asteri for letting me use the Athens garrison. It warms my heart that in these terrible times, the Asteri still manage to look further than personal glory and aid other Houses for the sake of the Empire.

House Asteri is an example for us all, dear Senators!

Savvas looks at Makedonios.

I understand your concerns, dear Grandmaster, but I'm sure our Caesar doesn't bear ill will towards the Order. Don't forget that we are going through a turbulent period and this is not a "normal" Megas term.

In these turbulent times, our current Megas succeeds in protecting the Empire. Allthough we are confronted with various threats, the Empire is still growing!

Please, Grandmaster, look further than legal technicalities and be fair in your judgement: while it is threatened by Crusades, a Jihad and the Seljuks armies, the Empire becomes even more powerful and all of this while our Caesar holds the office of Megas Logothetes.

As a true leader, he knows who needs what and who he can trust and from what I can see, the Empire didn't collapse, it is stronger than ever!

It seems like you didn't need the additional troops and the Caesar's trust in your capabilities has proven to be correct: the Order has done very well and I'd like to congratulate you in public for your military achievements!

Keep up the good work! Don't forget that we already cut of the Fatimid serpents' heads: both their Sultan and Crown Prince have been slain in battle! We already broke their morale and nothing will stop us from prevailing against those Fatimid dogs!

Rowan

08-12-2008, 13:59

Vartholomaios Ksiros' clerk who has been sitting and faithfully taking notes while his master is crusading raises his head at the activity in Magnaura. Hearing Savvas address Makedonios he first looks incredulous then loses his composure and bursts out laughing. Blushing at this most unusual outburst he lowers his head again his quill furiously scribbling on paper, trying to behave as nothing had happened.

ULC

08-12-2008, 14:02

Andres

08-12-2008, 14:31

Iakovos had finally been able to wrench himself away from Adana for a time, and had been going over several files while other Senators talked. But the ride and continued stress seemed to have taken their toll, and Iakovos soon slumped into unconsciousnesses. He sprang back up at the tail end of Savvas's and wiped the spit away from his mouth when Bart's scribe laughed.

"Did I miss anything of meaning? Something about not enough troops to eat the Fatimids dogs?"

I think we have enough troops for that.

With men like our Grandmaster, a living legend, protecting the Empire, there's no need for more troops!

With a small army consisting of two spearmen, one archer and a stable master, he managed to defeat the Sultan and his elite troops!

I'm sure that if we would insist long enough, Grandmaster Makedonios would defeat the whole Fatimid Empire on his own, just carrying his walking cane!

Cheer up Grandmaster! The people will be calling their new born sons "Makedonios"!

ULC

08-12-2008, 14:41

Iakovos snorts. "I'm sorry, come again? Defeat the entire Fatimid Empire? Forgive me for being brutally honest, but I think one, your mistaken about the Orders goals, two your ability to grasp logistics and numbers seems lacking, three there is a difference between fighting off an army while still having an army left, and I am sure you have heard of Pyhrrus? Yes, our victory was something like that. Unless you wish to insinuate the Grandmaster is akin to Belisarius, in which case we should all take the preventive measures necessary before you decide to stab him in the back."

Warmaster Horus

08-12-2008, 14:45

Where are the toilets? I'm sorry, but I feel sick after hearing such sycophant drivel.

On a more serious note, who would you support, the Caesar or the Grandmaster?

Andres

08-12-2008, 14:52

Why this lack of confidence in the military capabilities of Grandmaster Makedonios?

Of course he will hold the line, no matter what. And from what I have seen in the latest report of our Caesar, the troops he's been asking for, have been recruited.

I've heard the words "incomptent fool". Are you points at Nikiphoros and Iakovos now going to call the Caesar a liar?

How many more insults addressed at the Royal Family do we have to accept? This is outrageous!

ULC

08-12-2008, 15:02

"Oh, I don't doubt the military prowess of my Grandmaster Savvas, but when you must ask for army replenishment after each engagement, one begins to wonder at the quality of troops such a man is given. And If I remember correctly, I said nothing about the Caesars competence, or ability to tell the truth. I do hope the Caesar doesn't take offense to the idea that the thought he may even lie enters your head."

Warmaster Horus

08-12-2008, 15:04

Ibn-Khaldun

08-12-2008, 15:10

Ioannis stands..

Well.. My Master Efstathios have called the Caesar "incompetent fool" and I'm pretty sure that he really meant it!

Andres

08-12-2008, 15:18

Not a liar, no, but someone who doesn't do what he's supposed to do. The only reason impeaching him is stupid is because his term ends next year.
I'll be sure to propose something along the lines of: "The Caesar must never be allowed to run for the Megas Logothetes position again".
I do not insult the Royal Family, I insult the Megas Logothetes. And even if I were insulting them, remember that there can be some "bad eggs". If you remember our own illustrious Roman history, a few of the first emperors were madmen. Nero and Caligula, I believe...

You say that you do not insult the Royal family, only the Megas.

Well, I've got news for you: our current Megas is a member of the royal family. So if you insult the current Megas, you are in fact insulting a member of the royal family who also happens to be the heir of the Throne...

Please Senator, voice your opinion as many times as you want, but refrain from insulting our Royal Family. It is highly inappropriate.

Warmaster Horus

08-12-2008, 15:26

Andres

08-12-2008, 15:35

I insult a member of the Royal Family in his capacity of Megas Logothetes. To me, it is inconsequential that he is our Prince. He chose to be Megas, he assumes the role. If he does not assume it, then he has to be prepared to be insulted.

You can explain it away as much as you want, but you cannot deny that your latest statement came accross as if you were comparing the Caesar with Nero and Caligula and hinted at him being a "bad egg".

Warmaster Horus

08-12-2008, 15:42

Hinting maybe, but I was not saying that. I was just saying that it was possible for a noble of royal blood to not be as ... good as his ancestors.

Privateerkev

08-12-2008, 15:55

Makedonios watched the debate go back and forth.

I thank you for your words Comes Savvas. Unfortunately, we are being worn down by attrition. True, we have won many victories. But both armies of the Order are hollow shells.

Both armies are supposed to have 3 infantry, 2 archers, and 1 cavalry. Infantry is 90-112 men a unit. Archers are 90 men a unit. And cavalry is 60 men a unit.

Now look at my army currently: unit of 25 Turcopoles, unit of 88 peasant archers, unit of 44 peasant archers, unit of 53 town militia, and unit of 46 peasants.

And look at Armatos's current army: unit of 31 Turcopoles, unit of 22 Treb archers, and unit of 16 spear militia.

This is pathetic and evidence of abuse and neglect by the current Megas. Both of these armies are "combat ineffective." The only reason we win battles is because of the fighting prowess of the members of the Order. Our army runs away with alarming regularity. But who can blame them? They aren't professional troops. And with units so small, they can't take a charge from the enemy.

And what has the Caesar done? He has recruited exactly one unit on an island. The unit has 90 men. That doesn't even come close to replacing our losses. By law, the Caesar has to recruit more units for our armies before he can recruit for any non-private/royal army purpose. He has recruited other units that do not belong to private armies. Therefore, he has broken the rules.

Rules, mind you. Not Edicts. Things that should not be up for debate or interpretation. So, while I will not join in with the distasteful practice of insulting the Royal Family, I will make something clear. The Caesar's actions this whole term have clearly broken the law. What he has done, on multiple occasions is illegal.

He built prioritized buildings when he should have created a private army. He built non-prioritized buildings before recruiting for a private army. And he has recruited for non-army formations before finishing recruitment for a private army.

These things are... illegal. And still people keep covering for this man. We rake Hypatios over the coals for breaking and Edict but the Caesar has gotten a free pass for breaking the Rules on multiple occasions.

Because of this rampant lawbreaking, the Caesar is either woefully incompetent or criminally neglectful.

Andres

08-12-2008, 15:59

Are your armies currently in a settlement where they can be replenished?

Privateerkev

08-12-2008, 16:06

Yes they are now both sitting in Antioch. The spear militia and town militia could be replenished this year. But I rather have the whole units recruited first since that will bolster our forces quicker. If the Caesar had recruited the new units when he said he would, then he could replenish the battered ones this year. But, for some reason, the recruitment for new spear militia in Antioch got lost in the Caesar's paperwork and he simply didn't do it. I hope he gets to it this year.

Andres

08-12-2008, 16:08

So, the matter will be resolved?

The solution probably doesn't meet your standards, but it is a solution, isn't it?

Are there other problems besides the replenishment of your victorious armies?

Privateerkev

08-12-2008, 16:37

Well, the complete lack of building in Order and Asteri settlements is unsettling. The lack of priests in this area of the world to spread the Word. The lack of merchants to make money. The lack of a stable navy in these parts. The lack of roads. The lack of watchtowers on our borders. The sinking of our resources into one corner of the Empire and a shiny new army for the Caesar while the rest rots from neglect.

So no, the criminal neglect of our armies is not my only concern. It is my most dire concern however since without proper armies, we can not defend the Empire or even our subjects in the Levant.

I will say that the Order served exactly the purpose I promised it would back in 1081. We were the flank of the flank. We met the Fatimid Jihad and kept them from the great city of Constantinople. While House Asteri generously offered to help us, we were able to do without it which freed them up to retake the settlement of Caesarea.

Unfortunately the wily Fatimids showed us that they can sail across the sea and strike at our heartlands. Comes Savvas was able to defeat the Fatimid Prince but he had to do so without a proper army. He had to scrape together various militias and units from other settlements.

My point is, we've all had to make due with what little we have while the Caesar makes his House fat and rich. And while we have been successful, that is not a strategy for governing an Empire. That is basically rolling the dice. The Caesar gambled that he could pursue his personal agenda and that the rest of the Empire could basically just "hold on."

Our subjects deserve better...

Askthepizzaguy

08-12-2008, 17:17

The previously nameless senator from Durazzo, Taranto Giovinazzo, simply rolls his eyes at the one known as Makedonios. Finally, he speaks.

Such partisan grandstanding flows easily from one who does not bear the weight of leadership, and stands only to gain from undermining a leader, purely for his own political career.

Privateerkev

08-12-2008, 17:30

Makedonios eyes the "senator" from Durrazzo curiously.

Who are you?

As far as I know, the Senator from Durrazo is Efstratios. But he had a tirade over the Crusade and left.

I have no idea who you are but your sitting in his seat. Now, if your his aid, that is one thing. But your basically trying to be a Senator yourself. Sorry, but I do not recognize your authority and therefore will not be answering your questions. I talk to Senators and the aids and guests who know their place.

Looking at the Emperor.

I ask that Taranto Giovinazzo be removed from the premises. He is not a legal Senator of the Magnaura. Efstratios or his representative belong in that seat, not some random peasant who feels like pretending he is a Senator.

Askthepizzaguy

08-12-2008, 17:42

I assume this to mean that the province of Durazzo is to have no sitting Senator, then?

As you yourself mentioned, Efstratios is no longer a Senator of the Byzantine Empire. The people of Durazzo have a right to a new representative. As a formal delegate from Durazzo, and Monomachos' aide, I am finishing the former Senator's term in office until a new senator is elected.

Perhaps Makedonios is simply afraid of being criticized, as he criticizes others, and that is why he calls for my removal. Silencing your critics will not fill the holes in your arguments.

Privateerkev

08-12-2008, 17:44

Efstratios is still on the rolls as being a Senator. He can come himself or send an aid. But a totally different Senator is not allowed as far as I know.

Follow the laws of our land and I will dignify your words with responses.

Askthepizzaguy

08-12-2008, 19:48

Taranto departs from the Senate permanently, in a manner which can be only described as awe-inspiring.

Ferret

08-13-2008, 00:12

Hypatios watches the depature with delight, taking great relish in every ounce of pain the man suffers.

GeneralHankerchief

08-13-2008, 01:23

Patriarchal Representative:

Ah, good. Hypatios, you're here. Tell me more about Iconium.

Ignoramus

08-13-2008, 04:21

A satisfied look is on the face of Ioannis Komnenos as he walks into the Magnaura to deliver his final report.

Salutations, senators!

I am pleased the report on the prosperity of the empire during my tenure as Megas Logothetes.

During my term, the empire has regained much of her former terrritory. Kilikia, Georgia, and Armenia have all been restored to the fold. The disaster of Caesarea, while a grievous military defeat, has not resulted in any major consequences, as was the case with Manzikert.

Even as I speak, Athens, Bucharest, and Yerevan are prospering, so much that they are ready to grow into bigger towns.

I have successfully navigated through the tricky waters of the Frankish Crusades. The Germans have taken Jerusalem and will provide a sure distraction for the Fatimids, whose power is on the wane, thanks to the fine generalship of such men as Makedonius Ksanthopoulos.

The empire has improved relations with the Kingdom of Leon-Castile, and has concluded an alliance with the Republic of Milan. Such treaties can only help to secure our position from Frankish and Norman aggression.

Some of you may have complained that I have not treated all the houses equally. This is true. Those who have proved themselves loyal and worthy I have rewarded, leaving the others to consider the value of loyalty.

I thank the Magnaura for the honour of leading our empire for the past fifteen years. I am satisfied that I have not done discredit to the honour of Rome.

Ioannis resumes his seat, waiting for the new session to begin.

Ferret

08-13-2008, 10:32

Hypatios gives the Patriarchal Rep a strange look

You need to hear more? I believe my reports and the reports of others have already covered that incident, if you are really struggling try to use a little...imagination.

He gives a twisted smile as he says that last word.

TinCow

08-13-2008, 14:33

The Protoasecretes nods his head in respect to Caesar Ioannis Komnenos. He then slowly starts getting to his feet, wobbling heavily on two canes. For a moment his legs begin to shake with extreme violence and it appears as if he is going to fall over on his back. Two scribes rush over and grab him by his arms, to help him. The Protoasecretes does not take kindly to this, however, and backhands one in the face before uttering some incredibly foul words. The scribes quickly back off, muttering to themselves.

The Protoasecretes starts rambling openly about the disrespect of the young and the ignorance of youth, before somehow getting sidetracked on a diatribe about a particular day many years ago when he was attacked by a wild pigeon in the Hippodrome. After about 10 minutes of this, with the Senators all remaining respectfully quiet, he stops suddenly in the middle of a sentence. He blinks heavily and looks around the room. After a short pause, he waves his hand dismissively at the Senate.

"I hereby declare the Senate Session of 1125 AD open! It will remain open until Saturday, August 16th at 14:00 GMT."

As he wobbles back to his chair, the Protoasecretes can be heard to grumble something about idiotic politicians and their disrespect for the elderly.

Smowz

08-13-2008, 14:46

After a long journey across greece via a fishing vessel in the Aegean Sea Nevoulas ek Philadelphius arrives in Constinantinople and heads immediately to the Magnuara

Completely ignoring the Caeser, Nevoulas walks over to Comes Machonias in a surprising light hearted manner

Hypatios good to see you are well I have not seen you in some time, the people of Rhodes are happy and your settlement is running well I am sure you will be glad to here.

He then turns with a frown and looks toward the Caeser

Your highness let me introduce myself I am Nevoulas ek Philadelphius. My bodyguard are currently 'exiled' on the island of Rhodes and I would like an explanation as to why you would not send a vessel to transport them. I take it from you previous speech that I have done something to dishonor the empire. I take a great offense to this. I watched and waited for nearly 10 years whilst repeatedly sending requests not so much as a response from your administration...

Dafuge

08-13-2008, 14:50

Yes, I wonder why the people of Rhodes are happy.

Stavros smiles to himself, pleasently amused at his own comment.

Privateerkev

08-13-2008, 15:02

Makedonios walks in. Straight, but still with the aid of his cane, he confidently walks to his desk. Sipping a cup of water, he reads through the latest Senate transcripts. His features scowl and he shakes his head when he gets to the transcript of the Caesar's latest report to the Senate. Finally, he turns and heads to the podium.

Your Highness, Caesar, and Senators.

We have all been through quite a term. We launched a Crusade to save the good people of Cairo. We suffered a Jihad in return. And we have lost two good men. He pauses for a moment out of respect.

But we have suffered something else as well. Blatant partisan political abuse by the hands of a man who is supposed to be above such things. I have long cried out against the criminal neglect most of us have suffered at the hands of the Caesar so I will not go back into the details.

But most of our settlements have not been developed in fifteen years. Conversion has been almost completely abandonded in large parts of the Empire. Legally mandated armies are left as hollow shells of what they are supposed to be. Watch towers have not been built. And forts are almost non-existent. We have exactly one merchant in the whole Empire. And our navy is woefully inadequate for the many tasks at hand.

I aim to rectify all of that. I am here to humbly and officially announce that I am running for the position of Megas.

Someone needs to restore balance to the Empire. I will do my best to get the economy growing. I will make sure every settlement has things built in it. I will always do my duty with regards to maintaining legally mandated armies. I will spread the good Word across our lands.

I will support the Crusade and make sure it completes it's Holy Mission. And then I will fully support the settlements in Egypt. I will bolster the Order in the Levant so it can protect itself and it's people. I will support House Asteri and the Caesar's House in their war with the Turks. I will protect this great city of Constantinople from the continuing Jihad. And I will help our western region defend itself in case the Catholics should ever attack.

Unlike the Caesar, I believe all parts of the Empire need to be strong. Therefore, I will make the following pledge. No one House or section of the Empire will be favored over another. All subjects in our provinces are citizens of the Empire and thus deserving of development. Therefore, regardless of politics, I will personally see that every single province grows and benefits from my term.

But I will need your help. At the beginning of the next term, if I am elected, I will submit my economic plan for the Empire. I will lay out our expenses and where they could be trimmed. And I will lay out where I believe we can make money. I will need your help in raising taxes, disbanding obsolete units, and in submitting modest buildings in your build queues. This last is most important. It is better to keep up steady building in all provinces with small buildings than to have one or two buildings use up all of the treasury.

I will operate with full tranparency and will make myself completely accessible to you.

I eagerly await any questions any of you might have.

ULC

08-13-2008, 16:21

Iakovos ek Kallipoleos limped his way into the Magnaura covered in blood, some fresh, some old, some of it his own. He chest heaved as he strained to breathe through his last lung, and fumbled his way around trying to look through his one good eye. Iakovos looked at the other senators, and then promptly fell to his knees, and then to the floor. In his hand he held tightly a bloodstained scroll.

Ibn-Khaldun

08-13-2008, 16:31

A strong kick opens the doors and a tall tired looking man enters the room..

Welcome everybody,

It's so good to be back in Constantinople. The long voyage made me love the solid non wobbling surface.

Efstathios smiled..

Makedonios, I'm sorry for being so familiar, I support you as the 'hopefully' next Megas.
You are someone who can follow the laws not like the last one...
Even though our opinions are different sometimes I am sure that you are far better Megas than the last one..

Looking towards the Caesar with despise...
Walking to his seat his bodyguard Ioannis, who represented him here, stand and bows to him...
Efstathios nods and takes his seat and starts looking through recent reports..
The entering of Iakovos made him raise his head from the papers and he looked around with confusion why no one went to help him..

Privateerkev

08-13-2008, 16:40

Makedonios bends over Iakovos to see what is wrong.

OOC: sorry for the delay. The mafia game in the gameroom is picking up. :laugh4:

ULC

08-13-2008, 16:43

Iakovos is still, and one couldn't tell if he was alive or dead. The scroll in his hands has had it's seal broken, and written upon it it a detailed report, one of three, about the Organization, meant only for the eyes of the Emperor.

Privateerkev

08-13-2008, 17:03

Makedonios calls for the doctor. He hands the scroll, without opening it, to his shieldbearer Nick. Nick walks over to the Emperor's dias, kneels, and hands it directly to the Emperor. In the meantime, Makedonios splashes water from his cup on Iakovos's face to keep him awake and from going into shock.

OOC: YLC can just give the scroll's contents directly to OK by form of PM.

Ramses II CP

08-13-2008, 17:39

Vissarionas ek Lesvou arrives at the senate chamber in a travel stained cloak with mud still clinging to his boots. Ignoring all this he strides to the center of the Magnaura and begins to speak,

I return here for the sole purpose of declaiming the Caesar as a fool, an incompetent, a danger to the Empire, and a (unprintable four letter word, use your imagination)!

Glancing around with a faint sneer, Vissa goes on,

Furthermore, as the Caesar has proven, I consider this body little more than a rubber stamp aparatus for the Megas, and I will no longer bother to attend these sessions but will vote and conduct my business entirely by letter. If the Megas is permitted to act as he will, repeatedly in violation of rules, laws, and edicts, entirely without consequences then I see no reason to communicate with any senator but the next Megas, and of course my lord, may God grant that those two become one and the same!

I will warn this body that if the Megas is to become a law unto himself that the senators should do a better job selecting the Megas. If another man is allowed who directly costs us the lives of two noble senators by his inaction, if another man is allowed who leaves hostile borders defended by peasants, and if another man is allowed who hoards the resources of the Empire for his pathetic cronies while enemy armies march on our capital, then the Empire is doomed and the legacy of Rome will come to an end.

With those things being said, I propose an edict:

Edict 1.0 Ioannis Komnenos, being a clear and continuing danger to the Empire, is barred from ever again serving as Megas. Additionally he is officially declared to be an idiot.

So saying, Vissarionas laughs in a loud, contemptuous manner, and leaves the Magnaura and the city of Constantinople.

:egypt:

Privateerkev

08-13-2008, 17:44

Pausing from attending to Iakovos to hear Vissa's words, Makedonios raises an eyebrow.

I'm pretty sure that would require a CA.

GeneralHankerchief

08-13-2008, 17:46

Patriarchal Representative:

Get off it, Hypatios. Did you or did you not lie to His Eminence regarding your supposed dream?

Ibn-Khaldun

08-13-2008, 17:49

Hearing what Makedonios said Efstathios resposes..

Perhaps we need both of the.. just to make sure?

Saying that he burst in to laugh..

TinCow

08-13-2008, 18:19

*The Protoasecretes eyes the seemingly lifeless body of Iakovos ek Kallipoleos. Then he snorts and mutters something about youngsters not eating enough boiled beets. He then waves to a scribe with a rude gesture. The man steps forward, unrolls a scroll and begins to read.*

"The Protoasecretes proposes the following Charter Amendment, which is intended to deal with some... ah... discrepancies which arose during the term of the most noble and honorable Caesar Ioannis Komnenos."

Charter Amendment 4.1: The Megas Logothetes Limitations on Powers #2 will be altered as follows: (changes in bold)

(2) No money can be spent on any construction until all Prioritized Buildings have been funded, unless the Senators who Prioritized them agree otherwise. If there are multiple Prioritized Buildings, and not enough funding for all of them, the Megas Logothetes may choose which to construct first. Prioritized Buildings cannot be funded until the requirements of Rule 4.3 have been met.

Rule 4.3 will be altered as follows: (changes in bold)

4.3 – Army Replenishment: If a Private or Royal Army falls below the minimum strength level, all monetary expenditures must be allocated to restoring the Army to minimum strength before money can be spent on anything else, unless the owner agrees otherwise. In the event of a conflict, a Royal Army takes priority over a Private Army. If a Private or Royal Army is below minimum strength, this Rule will be considered to have been properly fulfilled if the Megas Logothetes queues up sufficient units to bring the Private or Royal Army to minimum strength and specifically states in a public thread which queued units are designated as reinforcements for the understrength Army. If the Megas Logothetes subsequently becomes unwilling or unable, for any reason, to transport these designated units to the understrength Private or Royal Army, all monetary expenditures must again be allocated to restoring the Army to minimum strength before money can be spent on anything else, unless the owner agrees otherwise. This rule does not apply to armies involved in a Civil War.

Privateerkev

08-13-2008, 18:23

I second CA 4.1

Private armies are essential to the defense of our Empire. They must be replenished and it can not be subject to partisan whims.

Ramses II CP

08-13-2008, 18:34

I second CA 4.1 by letter.

:egypt:

Ibn-Khaldun

08-13-2008, 18:35

I second CA 4.1 too.

Dafuge

08-13-2008, 18:47

I to, second CA 4.1

Warmaster Horus

08-13-2008, 18:53

May I remind you that legislation requires only 2 senators to back it?

As for me, I would second Vissaronias' edict, if the second sentence were removed. We can all have a different opinion of the Caesar.

Rowan

08-13-2008, 19:28

The last of the Order Crusaders enters the senate. He has apparently had time to have a bath and a change of clothes after the trying voyage at sea. His beard is cleanly shaven and the bright white tabard of the Order bears the purple Orthodox cross. The white of his clothes stand in clear contrast to the black under his eyes while his eyes and skin have the shine of sickness.

Vartholomaios Ksiros walks briskly to the Order seats and sits with his fellows. It has been a long time since he has seen his friends and his relief at meeting them once again is clear to see. Yet there is a more urgent business at hand. The scribe that has been taking notes hands them over and Vartholomios starts poring over them, occasionally glancing around.

After a short while's reading he stands up:

Even though it is redundant, I will second CA 4.1. At this moment I will give Caesar the chance to explain his actions and refrain from seconding edict 1.0 at this point.

Ferret

08-13-2008, 20:05

Patriarchal Representative:

Get off it, Hypatios. Did you or did you not lie to His Eminence regarding your supposed dream?

I did not lie, besides I believe the session has started and you have been banned from these chambers during such times, and with good cause. If the Patriarch wishes to doubt my dreams he can do it in person, you count for nothing.

Ibn-Khaldun

08-13-2008, 20:28

Hypatios, He was banned from the last Senate Session but not from the current one..

GeneralHankerchief

08-13-2008, 20:50

Patriarchal Representative:

Hypatios, in case you have forgotten the very first missive issued from the Office of the Patriarch, detailing all future Proclamations to come...

*The Representative reaches into his robe, and, grabbing a scroll, tosses it into the air. As it floats gently down to the ground, he once again reaches into his robe, and, whirling, fires a dagger into the paper. Deadly-straight, it catches the paper and embeds itself in the Basileus's podium, with the paper in perfect position to be read.*

...perhaps your memory needs to be refreshed.

"Any potential Senator who wishes to mistreat or disagree with this representative should keep in mind whom they are indirectly challenging by this."

Lest you all forget, I am the official voice of Nicholas III in this here building. Trifle not with me, gentlemen. I ask you again, with all the power of the Patriarch of Constantinople and his Office behind me, did you or did you not lie to His Eminence?

Ferret

08-13-2008, 21:06

Hypatios sighs.

I did not, now can we get on with more important matters? If the Patriarch wishes to bring his "huge" power to bear on me then so be it, I am sure I can handle that.

GeneralHankerchief

08-13-2008, 21:09

Patriarchal Representative:

Then please explain what the men, who were well-documented, were doing in Iconium with you while the task was being completed. Or, in case you have already done so, say it again.

woad&fangs

08-13-2008, 21:11

As Solomon enters the Magnaura it is immediatly clear that he is very ill. His once muscled frame is now frail and sinewy. His brown eyes, once mischievious and filled with life are now sunken glazed. When he opens his mouth to drink he reveals a mouth almost completely absent of teeth and gums which are tender and bleeding.

First may I say I whole heartedly support Makedonios' candidacy. He's a good man and a great leader.

Now I have a question of policy. Is it our desire to completely eradicate the Seljuks and Fatamids or are we willing to negotiate a ceasefire with them?

Ferret

08-13-2008, 21:12

Hypatios looks confused

Can you at least make it clear what you are talking about when you rapidly change subject, what "men" are you talking about?

GeneralHankerchief

08-13-2008, 21:14

Patriarchal Representative:

The men that the Basileus's daughter testified, in this very building, to seeing, if I'm not mistaken. The men reported to be a part of this Organization.

Ferret

08-13-2008, 21:28

Ah thank you. Those men I met only after the city was well secured and the Infidel inhabitants had been taken care of. Those men offered to round up a group that had been framing "those men" and hindering the empire as a whole, I allowed them to do so and have had no contact with them since.

Ibn-Khaldun

08-13-2008, 21:37

The entering of Annios Solomon makes Efstathios a little bit nervous ..
He looks away and starts reading more reports about the last years events..

Ignoramus

08-14-2008, 00:21

Ioannis stands up.

Senator Ksanthopoulos, do you realise that one of your vassals has just insulted the Basileus' family. Yet it causes no concern to you? Maybe the Imperial family is no longer as high in your eyes?

Ioannis sits down.

Privateerkev

08-14-2008, 01:00

Makedonios shrugged.

He left the Senate building. What more do you want? If you wish, you can ask the Emperor to ban Vissa's scribes and aids so he can't send letters.

While I don't condone his words or actions, your criminal neglect has aroused strong feelings in some people.

Makedonios stands.

On behalf of my vassal, I apologize if his words insulted the Royal Family. I will speak to him personally.

ULC

08-14-2008, 03:00

Iakovos jerks and sputters blood. He clenches in pain and his breathe is a warped gurgle and rasp. He seems to stare into nothing, mumbling something to himself, something only Makedonios can hear.

OverKnight

08-14-2008, 05:27

Finally seeing Iakovos in distress, the Basileus makes his way to him, summoning a Physician. He speaks to the Varangians.

Secure the building and then search it, anyone who is not a Senator is to be detained for questioning.

As armed men spread out, the Basileus pauses to peruse the papers Iakovos was carrying.

Poison and knives in the dark, the tools of cowards.

Privateerkev

08-14-2008, 05:30

Makedonios's eyes go wide when he hears Iakovos's words. Looking down at him, he doesn't know what to do. A doctor comes in and starts to bind the man's wounds. Seeing that there is nothing more he can do for him at the moment, Makedonios stands up. As the Emperor approaches, he gets as close as the guards will let him, and says something so low only the Emperor can hear. He stands there waiting for Alexsios's response but can not resist glancing over at the Caesar.

GeneralHankerchief

08-14-2008, 05:34

Patriarchal Representative:

This is highly alarming.

OverKnight

08-14-2008, 05:48

The Basileus looks at Makedonios intently raising an eyebrow. He takes a step back and shakes his head. After a moment he leans in very close to Iakovos and says:

Who attacked you?

ULC

08-14-2008, 06:20

Iakovos slips into a bloody coughing fit. He speaks in a raspy, almost volumeless voice after it passes, which only the physician, Makedonios and Aleksios can hear.

deguerra

08-14-2008, 07:03

Perhaps someone would have the courtesy to call a doctor. If it is too late for that, can we at least remove the man from this chamber. It is neither a fitting place to die, nor to watch someone die.

Cecil XIX

08-14-2008, 07:07

Armatos strolls into the Magnaura.

Greetings, Senators. I am here propose a Charter Amendment, but first I must mark the passing of two-

Armatos stops abruptly when he realizes there is a commotion which has the attention of both the Grandmaster and the Basileus. Armatos briskly walks over to see what the fuss is about, and finally notices Iakovos.

Good Lord, Iakovos! Are you all right? What happened?!

ULC

08-14-2008, 07:20

Iakovos smiles weakly and replies in a raspy voice.

"Tis only...a flesh wound Armatos...I had some difficulty at work...getting along...with...some co-workers..."

Iakovos suddenly coughs up more blood and groans.

Ituralde

08-14-2008, 07:34

Pavlos enters the Diet after a long absence. He seems to be wanting to speak, but as he notices the commotion his face sets in a grim expression and he walks quietly over to the benches of the Komnenodoukai.

Ibn-Khaldun

08-14-2008, 07:56

Now could someone stop this whispering and tell the rest of the Senate what Iakovos is saying there!
Or do I have to propose an Edict to hear his words!!

Efstathios is getting annoyed because of the secrecy and that there is still no doctor here..

pevergreen

08-14-2008, 08:27

Patriarchal Representative:

This is highly alarming.

"T'would seem the representative has an ability to understate..."

Michail says as he walks into the Magnaura;

"He will be fine, I am sure. We will all need him later on. To be safe though, let us hope that doctor still lives. If he doesn't turn up soon, I would hate the chance to change that state myself..."

OverKnight

08-14-2008, 08:29

OOC: Please don't let the drama interfere with legislation. Any exchanges have been taken to PMs.

IC: An Imperial physician and his aide attend to Iakovos as the Session continues. The Senator is removed from the chambers in a stretcher eventually. Aleksios leaves with them grasping the papers the wounded man had brought with him.

Andres

08-14-2008, 14:16

During these days of troubles, when confronted with Crusades, Jihads and war, the Empire needs strong leadership.

Leadership that holds dear the overall well being of the Empire. Leadership that looks further than personal ambitions and glory.

During the term of the Caesar, Makedonios has been constantly complaining about how the Order has been treated by the Caesar.

How many times did we hear "the Order this", "the Order that", all of it in a nice package of "being concerned about the law".

I am under the impression that our dear Grandmaster will abuse the office to gain as much benefits for the Order as possible, all of this with the excuse of "rectifying" the so called "damages" and "injustices" done to the Order by the Caesar.

To avoid having a Megas whose only concern is his own House while the Empire is still threatened by enemy forces, I have decided to run for Megas myself, since nobody else seems eager to fullfil this noble yet difficult task.

I will communicate with the royal family and the heads of the respective Houses during my term. I will see to it that all royal and private armies will get the required military regiments, within the boundaries of the treasury of course.

If florins are scarce, I will extensively negotiate with every House leader to chose money generating investments over armies and buildings. Those who will be able to put aside their personal benefits and who will be able to distance themselves from following the law too stricty, will be rewarded. I'll explain myself: if a certain House would ask me to build a market or a port instead of replenishing his army, I will see to it that it'll be compensated for this favour.

I will follow the law when it is required, but I will also use diplomacy and negotiations with the Royal Family and the House leaders.

My term will be based on communication, communication, communication, not just strictly following some rules.

But rest assured : the law will never be broken. Exceptions on the rules will only be made if all parties involved agree.

If you want a dynamic rule instead of static, strict leadership which is not able to anticipate on difficult situations, chose me over Makedonios.

Whoever will hold the interest of the Empire in higher esteem than his personal glory and ambitions will benefit from my rule.

I thank you for your attention.

Privateerkev

08-14-2008, 15:23

Andres

08-14-2008, 15:34

Makedonios nodded to the Emperor and said some things in a low voice. Satisfied that Iakovos was being cared for, he addressed Savvas's platform.

Mischaracterizing me already Savvas?

As I have stated, I will treat all fairly. No group will get favored over another. I guess you had to make that up about me to try to set your platform apart from mine.

I will operate in full transperency as Megas. If there is favortism, it will show. And then I am confident all of you will voice your displeasure.

Savvas offers nothing different, except the promise to slander me and my goals. How noble...

Did I ever complain about being mistreated?

You, dear grandmaster, blatantly complained and demanded for resources to be allocated to your House, in a period where resources were scarce and when the Empire was more important than strictly following the law with all its' comma's.

You have shown that you lack the flexibility and the open mind that is an absolute necessity in order to succesfully accomplish the task of a Megas.

You live in a dream world outside reality where you think everything will work out fine if you just follow rules.

You, dear Makedonios, do not have a vision nor an open mind.

You are a great general and a brave man, I will grant you that, Grandmaster, Savvas nods at Makedonios, but you do not have the necessary qualities of a good Megas.

Being a good leader means much more than just following a few rules.

Privateerkev

08-14-2008, 15:40

Can you tell me how sinking all of the Empire's resources into one corner of the Empire was good for the Empire?

I promise to restore balance. That means all the corners get resources. Again, you are mischaracterizing my stance.

Oh what will you say next to win...

Ibn-Khaldun

08-14-2008, 15:51

Let me just say one thing..

Who ever becomes Megas can't be worse than the previous one...

Looking towards the Caesar...

Privateerkev

08-14-2008, 15:57

Makedonios looks at Efstatios.

You have a point young Senator.

While I have not approved of Comes Savvas's debating style, I will admit that he can not possibly do a worse job than the Caesar.

Ibn-Khaldun

08-14-2008, 16:34

Efstathios writes a small message and gives it to one of his assistants who walks to the Grandmaster and gives the message to him..

woad&fangs

08-14-2008, 16:40

Ah Laskaris, there you are. Luckily for you, your murder attempts were conducted on the open sea where our laws don't apply so you have nothing to fear from me while we are here.

Again I ask the senators, what is our policy with regards to the Seljuks and Fatamids? Do we wish to eradicate them or to force a ceasefire out of them?

Privateerkev

08-14-2008, 16:56

I think for the long term, we need to work towards a full conversion of Seljuk and Fatimid lands to the Orthodox faith.

In the short term, we need to protect what we have and develop it. If we can make measured gains against them, we should do so.

Andres

08-14-2008, 17:05

Before we can invest in conversion, we need money.

Why not combining two things: sack the Fatimid and Seljuk settlements, use the florins to a) invest in money making buildings b) send priests.

I'd like to propose a simple Edict:

Edict 4.2.: Each settlement conquered upon a non Orthodox faction should be sacked by its' conqueror.

GeneralHankerchief

08-14-2008, 17:07

Patriarchal Representative:

At last, two men who talk sense! I do have hope for the future of the Orthodox faith then, after all!

Privateerkev

08-14-2008, 17:09

Andres

08-14-2008, 17:13

To me that is not acceptable. It is wrong to force people to sack. We need to renew the old edict 3.2.

Edict 4.3: No settlement can be exterminated. No Orthodox settlement can be sacked though sacking of Catholic or Muslim-held settlement is authorized. Crusade targets must be occupied.

Leave the sacking of non-Orthodox settlements to be an option to those who feel it must happen. But do not mandate it.

Ah, dear Senator, please show me the free armies and the free priests shop...

We need money! Do you want our priests to travel naked and to starve to death before they reach their target? Do you want armies consisting of only starving peasants wearing only some old garments as armor? Do you think structures come for free?

Our economy is in dire need of a financial boost. We need money to invest, which investments can create more profit.

You may be a wonderful general, Makedonios, but you certainly don't understand anything about economy.

We simply cannot afford the luxury of occupying settlements!

Privateerkev

08-14-2008, 17:16

_Tristan_

08-14-2008, 17:26

Methodios Tagaris, looking drawn and tired, stands from where he had been sitting and listening to the debates.

My Lords, I agree with Makedonios and would second his Edict, having been the first to propose one with a similar phrasing.

However I would ask him to amend it and remove the last part about Crusade targets.

The men of Alexandria are to be held responsible for the death of one the best men the Empire had to offer : Kosmas Mavrozomis.

They have to pay for it. I will not advocate exterminating them. Most of them had no part in that death but still all of them took part by funding the armies that caused Kosmas' death.

For that, they shall pay. If I'm able to take the city, I will extort every last copper piece from their purses.

This should provide for our continued presence in Egypt, in the memory of Kosmas.

So I would ask Makedonios to rephrase his Edict accordingly so that I can fully support it.

Methodios then slumps in his chair.

Andres

08-14-2008, 17:28

I personally find sacking to be reprehensible. I wish it were outlawed. We can find money other ways. Building economic buildings, trimming what isn't being used, raising taxes, and sending out merchants are all fine ways of getting money.

I refuse to set aside my morals and convictions all because they are temporarily inconvenient. We need to stand for something.

Building? Without money? More taxes? For what? To get a few riots which will result in no taxes and having to train an army to reconquer a rebellious settlement?

Merchants? With what money are you going to recruit them?

Morals and convictions?

Don't lecture me about morals and convictions, you butch...

Savvas takes a deep breath, it seems like he wants to say something, but he refrains. He takes another deep breath, sips from his wine and continues.

Think about it on the long term: no sacking of infidel settlements = not enough florins. No florins, no troops, no buildings, no merchants, no priests, nothing...

Rasing taxes? This will result in rebellions. Rebellions mean we'll have to train armies to retake a city that is inhabited by our own citizens.

Your "morals and convictions" will lead us to chaos, will force us to kill our own and will result in armies not meeting opposition, which will result in even more innocent deads.

In the end, we will be forced to sack settlements in order to survive.

So why not sacking them now?

What seems to be an "immoral" choice at first, turns out to be the best solution, even from the "moral" point of view.

Like I said: the Grandmaster lacks the vision and open mind required to run the Empire.

Privateerkev

08-14-2008, 17:42

Sorry Methodios but I will refuse to write a law that authorizes the sacking of Crusade targets. If you want it, write one yourself.

And Savvas, say what I know you really want to say. I can see it welling up in you and causing you to tremble with giddy anticipation.

I am confident that we can build the economy without becoming butchers.

If we give up our common values, just to make things easier, then what will become of us?

Andres

08-14-2008, 17:49

Not sacking will lead to more innocent deads in the long term.

Why is that so difficult to understand?

Please senators, I do not doubt the noble intentions of this man, but he is not the best choice for Megas. Like I said, the Grandmaster is narrow minded and focused on strict rules. These are not good qualities for a Megas.

On top of that, edict 4.1 is a direct insult to a member of the Royal Family. That edict has been proposed by one of Makedonios' vassals.

Clearly, this shows that the Order also lacks diplomatic skills.

Tell me Methodios, if you would happen to disagree with the Pope on certain issues during your term as Megas, will you also let your Order call him an "idiot" and risk Constantinople to be the target of several Crusades?

Not only are you not understanding the finesses of economics, you also lack the style and self control of a good diplomat.

Privateerkev

08-14-2008, 18:28

Andres

08-14-2008, 18:56

I find it ironic that you continue to use the sacking of Antioch against me, while also proposing an edict that mandates that we sack.

You might find me morally strict but I find you to be remarkably flexible in your morals.

As for what my vassal has said of the Caesar, he was rebuked. The Emperor has the power to ban Vissa's letters from the chamber. If you are not happy with how the matter has been handled, then take it up with the Emperor.

Your starting to grasp at straws...

I didn't mention Antioch and won't mention Antioch during this Senate Session, because I understand that it is a sensitive subject for you.

Taking into account the sensitivities of your opponent is part of the art of diplomacy I was talking about.

And I am not flexible in my morals, Grandmaster. If you would pay more attention to what I say, than you would understand that sacking those settlements is the best thing to do, even from a moral point of view. In the long run, we will lose less innocent lives.

If you are not able to handle the dirty part of real statesmanship, than you should withdraw from the current election and go back to your dreamworld.

Let real leaders deal with reality.

Privateerkev

08-14-2008, 19:02

You almost said the word "butcher" and we all know what you meant. You have been mentioning Antioch in both private and public for decades. I now know why you promised in private that you wouldn't mention Antioch. It is because it would expose your blatant hypocrisy.

It would be most difficult for you to keep up your mock horror at what happened to Antioch while your pushing for a law that forces all of us to sack non-Orthodox settlements.

My morals might be unbending like a concrete pillar but yours are like a rope. And you have just tied that rope into a knot.

Rowan

08-14-2008, 19:15

During a lull in the argument between the two candidates Vartholomaios Ksiros stands up

Basileos, Caesar, fellow Senators.

In the interest of equal development for all parts of the empire I wish to propose
Edict 4.4: Megas Logothetes is not allowed to fund the building of Drill Squares (level 3 barracks), unless prioritized or no building queue is present, until he has funded at least two Garrison Quarters (level 2 barracks). One of the Garrison Quarters must be in Europe and one in Asia.

Let me explain: at the moment there are several underdeveloped castles in the Empire, two good examples would be Belgrade and Aleppo which guard our western and south-eastern approaches. The purpose of the edict is to see not all military building concentrated on just one or two castles, but spread it out a bit further. After the construction is started on these two relatively cheap structures the Megas is then free to start building structures that allow more formidable troops to be trained.

Privateerkev

08-14-2008, 19:18

I wish something like this wasn't even needed. But with the Caesar's criminal neglect and blatant cronyism, I fear it is.

I second Edict 4.4

Andres

08-14-2008, 19:22

By being "unbending", Grandmaster, you will do more harm than good, but it seems like you refuse to understand.

Oh well, like a wise man once said: beati pauperes spiritu.

Savvas shrugs.

TinCow

08-14-2008, 19:23

OOC: Before anyone brings it up, Rowan checked the wording of E4.4 with me before he proposed it. It is very, very well worded to fit into the Rules without contradicting any of them. It is valid as written and does not need to be proposed as a CA.

Rowan

08-14-2008, 19:30

I second Edict 4.3

Ferret

08-14-2008, 19:45

That means all the corners get resources.

What about the middle?

Hypatios chuckles at his joke

Privateerkev

08-14-2008, 19:53

We don't really have a middle. Every single province is either on or near a border.

If you wish, I'll find some other way to explain it from now on. "All parts" might be more accurate.

Ramses II CP

08-14-2008, 20:07

A letter arrives from Vissarionas ek Lesvou and is read into the record by a scribe who grows increasingly nervous as he goes on reading out the points.

I second Edicts 4.3 and 4.4.

I wish to make it known that I was suitably chastened by my Lord and Protector, the Grandmaster of the Order, for my outrageous comments and I further withdraw my own amusing little 'edict' in the name of respecting what pathetic dregs of authority remain to this body in the wake of the latest Megas' abuses.

I would also like to officially apologize to the Emperor, may God protect him, if he was in any way offended that I pointed out the fact of his son's idiocy, resemblance to a pig, or astonishing capacity for damaging our nation through his incompetence.

The poor scribe stumbles over the last words, and looks about helplessly.

I must further apologize to Princess Anna, the representative of Patriarch Nicholas III, Prince Isaakios Komnenos, and Prince Andronikos Komnenos if my reporting the facts of the Caesar's crude habit of pleasuring himself with snakes in any way disturbed their sleep, as it has my own.

Even more so I must apologize to Senators Ioannis Kantakouzinos, Lisas Attaleiatis, and Pavlos Chrysovergos for revealing that syphilis has so destroyed their sensibilities that they have sworn themselves to a mange ridden dog who feeds them only the scraps from his own filthy meals.

The wide eyed functionary has no recourse but to carry on speaking, though his nervous swallows and stutters make the words difficult to understand.

Furthermore I must apologize to Senators Nikiphoros Manouelitis, Methodios Tagaris, Hypatios Machonios, Apionnas Vringas for publically demonstrating the gross cowardice and utter incapacity for thought on the part of their most recent Megas, the Caesar.

And yet again I must apologize to Senators Annios Solomon, Efstratios Monomachos, Michail Arianitis, Savvas ek Militou, and Aleksios ek Ikoniou for my wildly unecessary revelation that the Caesar's favored libation is undistilled boil drainage from the 'ladies' who work the dockyards in the evening.

At this point the reader breaks into a sweat, and turns deathly pale, but clearly feels he must not abandon his job.

Also a deeply heartfelt apology must go out to Efstathios Laskaris, Nevoulos ek Philadelphias, Zigavinos Vasilakios, and Ioannis Kalameteros for my accurate but unwholesome description of the Caesar's willingness to sacrifice the lives of soldiers, civilians, children, cats, dogs, and even priests to further his own pedantic ends.

And finally an apology to the children of the Komnenos household; I purchased and shipped chastity belts in your name in the vain hope that you could remain unspoiled by the hideous depredations of your elder but I fear I am too late, and all of you may already be too old to suit the beast's tastes.

At this the scribes eye's at last roll back in his head, and he faints dead away, dropping the letter, not quite finished. He is quickly carried off by his fellow scribes, all of whom look deeply relieved not to have drawn the short straw on this day. If anyone picks up the paper or chances to glance at it there is but one final line of text.

To my brothers in the Order, I am sorry beyond words, but the brute fact is someone must speak, and if no one else has the courage or the outrage, then I do. I will restrain myself in the future, so far as good conscience allows.

Vissarionas ek Lesvou

:egypt:

OOC: and on the back, in tiny letters, it says:

Chivalry characters do it in the open

Ibn-Khaldun

08-14-2008, 20:35

Hearing his name Efstathios raises his head..

Vissarionas does not have to apologize before me since I share his opinion about our 'beloved' Caesar...

Andres

08-14-2008, 21:07

Savvas speaks, his whole body screams 'sarcasm'.

Well well, the brave Vissarionas ek Lesvou wrote a letter. What a hero.

He smiles at Makedonios.

Is this the kind of diplomacy we will see from a Megas of the Order? Guess we will be at war with the whole world in no time than...

In a dramatic gesture, Savvas shakes his head.

Grandmaster, you can't even keep your own vassals in line, and you want us to believe that you'll be able to run the Empire?

What a joke!

Privateerkev

08-14-2008, 21:12

Still grasping huh Savvas?

Vissa was rebuked. He is not even here. If he wants to send letters, he can until the Emperor says he can't. I say again, take it up with the Emperor if you want Vissa banned.

Your attempt to link his actions in the Senate to my international diplomacy is weak and tenous. And indictitive of your own lack of platform.

Your only running because the Caesar ordered you to. So, now you've followed his orders. Good for you.

If you refuse to debate real issues, then we have little more to say.

00jebus

08-14-2008, 21:54

Lisas looks at the scribe who recited Vissa's letter

Kindly remind Vissa that if I have syphillus and chlammidia, then its only thanks to his mothers special offers of a tuesday night...

Then at the grandmaster

As the comes ek Miltou has already pointed out, you lack an understanding of real world economics, though, like a blind archer I once heard of, you've somehow managed to hit something;

The empire is, pehaps the largest employer of mercinaries in the world, some of these are on garrison duty, I ask you now as a possible future megas, what would you do about them?

leave them in place as drains on our coffers?
move them to the front and loose order?
disband them all and leave us horribly weak?
or some middle course

Privateerkev

08-14-2008, 22:09

I am amused that this myth of me not having economic ability is floating around. (OOC: Mak has "smart" and "budding bueruacrat". ~;p )

There are many ways to gain and lose money. Savvas and I simply happen to disagree on some of them.

But to answer your question Lisas, I do have a plan. I will catalouge all of our mercenaries, research where I can recruit professional replacements, and then offer the owners of the mercenaries a choice.

They can either accept the cheaper professional replacements or explain to the whole Senate why they need expensive mercenaries.

00jebus

08-14-2008, 22:40

good enough, though I note to the senate that without sacking replacing all mercinaries with our own professionals or even militia could take years.

Warmaster Horus

08-14-2008, 22:56

00jebus

08-14-2008, 23:20

Lisas turns to Manouelitis

Since vassals are only single men, the question should surely be what experience does he have organising and managing groups of men?
Say, have you resolved any disorder between groups of townspeople?

Unless of course if Savvas ek Miltou is elected as megas he intends to manage us all down to what outfits we will wear and ignore the strategic level completly.

Warmaster Horus

08-14-2008, 23:29

Me? I am only a strator with no experience of anything whatsoever. That said, I am not running for Megas. Being one of the electors (with admittedly small influence), I think I can wonder at our candidates' capabilities.

pevergreen

08-15-2008, 00:53

I second Edict 4.2

Truly, I had no idea that I had been insulted by Vissarionas, there is no apology needed towards me.

Privateerkev

08-15-2008, 02:52

OverKnight

08-15-2008, 05:31

Aleksios leans forward.

Leaving aside the insults and inane accusations that seem to make up a majority of this Session, I have a question for the two candidates:

Considering the current strategic situation of the Empire, what would be the military and diplomatic goals of your term?

Privateerkev

08-15-2008, 07:35

Makedonios thinks on it for a moment.

Diplomatically, I would keep pursuing trade deals and map exchanges for any money we can get from it. I say we keep our alliances with the Orthodox, be cautious about making any alliances with Catholics, and not make any with Muslims. An alliance with Catholics could fall apart if we ever get a Crusade called on us. As for trade deals, I would pursue them with any Catholic nation. We have a network of diplomats already so I would just send them on tour. We are currently at war with every Muslim kingdom and I don't see those wars ending anytime soon.

Militarily, I will go by specific regions:

West: I would watch our borders with the Catholics. I believe one day they will hunger for more land and we will be attacked. They can attack us without worrying about their Pope complaining. If they stay peaceful, then we will simply continue being watchful. Watchtowers should go up where needed to give us warning of any incursions. As the Fatimids have shown us, we will always need to keep a military presence in the west no matter how peaceful the Catholics are.

Constantinople: There is still a Jihad going on. While it continues, this city will never be truly safe. We will need to keep watch on the borders and intercept these armies before they reach here like Savvas, Armatos, and I have done. But in case any slip through, there will always need to be a force in the city itself.

Anatolia: I will help House Komnenodoukai and House Asteri pursue war against the Seljuks. I would love to see all of Anatolia freed from the grip of Seljuk tyranny and converted to Orthodoxy. I would see that both Houses get the resources needed to pursue their territorial goals there. Someone needs to administer the provinces there and those two Houses have taken up the call.

Levant: I will bolster the Order's armies to their full legal level so they can defend the area and make strikes against the Fatimids. We will need a land route to Egypt and I will start one during the next term. Damascus is an obvious next step. Hopefully, the Templars and the Germans will stay peaceful. While I am not thrilled with the idea of Catholic Kingdoms having a foothold in the Levant, at least they aren't Muslim. The Germans now possess the Holy City of Jerusalem. Again, I admit I am not thrilled by this. Their Kaiser is so crazy, he might attack the Pope, take Rome, and then give Jerusalem to the new Pope to secure a cease-fire. (OOC: :laugh4:) But, again, I rather see the city in German hands, than under the Caliph.

Egypt: The Crusade is ongoing and needs to be completed. Once completed, those settlements need to be protected from Fatimid counter attack. A priority would be given to the conversion of the area to Orthodoxy. Besides the obvious benefit of spreading the Faith, this would allow our armies to resupply. As mentioned, I would work towards establishing a land corridor to Egypt.

Navy: I would develop our navy into a logistical tool, as well as a military weapon. Instead of the one giant fleet we currently have chasing it's tail, it would be split up. Smaller fleets would have sectors. They would be responsible for transporting units and agents in the area. As well as serving as a picket force. If resources allow, I would have a larger rapid response fleet to send to trouble areas.

Ibn-Khaldun

08-15-2008, 07:48

Efstathios listens what Makedonios have just said and the raises..

Good plan! That's all I can say. I doubt that Savvas would be able to make a better one.

He nods to Makedonios and smiles..

Ituralde

08-15-2008, 08:12

As the letter from Vissarioans ek Lesvou is read, Pavlos barks a short laugh!

"Hah! Bloody coward, not even showing his face in the Senate. But we're all heroes on paper, eh?"

He looks at Makedionios, his face set in its eternal downcast.

"Surely you condemn the words of your vassal or do you agree with them?"

Warmaster Horus

08-15-2008, 12:21

Has Makedonios not already spoken of this, Pavlos?

Vissa was rebuked. He is not even here. If he wants to send letters, he can until the Emperor says he can't. I say again, take it up with the Emperor if you want Vissa banned.
These attacks on the Grandmaster using his vassal as an excuse are becoming ridiculous. We are free men, are we not? If we say something out of line, then we are rebuked for it, and the matter should rest then.

Kagemusha

08-15-2008, 12:34

" Surely your plan sounds nice and all, Grandmaster, but it has a flaw that turns it into just dreams. It seems all your actions only increase the spending of the Empire, while you support getting rid of yet another way to gain income, in form of outlawing sacking. To me it seems that you have great dreams, but no means to make those dreams true. Senator Militous plans seem lot more based on reality then yours."

Rowan

08-15-2008, 12:52

Ah yes, maybe if Senator Militou would care to share his plan with the rest of us we might appraise its worth! What have we heard from him? Pretty nothings! Sure, he says he will negotiate and that florins will flow to his hands from sacked cities but what cities is he planning to sack? Is he going to attack the catholics? For all we know he is going to singlehandedly invade Italy!

And could he tell us what he will do with all those florins, beside enlarging his wine cellar!

Ituralde

08-15-2008, 12:57

"It was no bloody attack. Merely an inquiry about his oppinion. And don't think an insult isn't seen as one just because you put an 'I apologize' in front of it or do you agree with the sentiments of ek Lesvou and are willing to repeat those things to my face?"

Privateerkev

08-15-2008, 17:05

Vissa's words are his own. I, nor the Order, condone his words. He has been rebuked, twice. The Emperor has had the chance to review his words, and if you notice, Vissa has not been banned from these chambers. Therefore, any further attempt to link his words to me or the Order is blatant political grandstanding. I have taken the appropriate steps. If he does it again, I will take more steps. The Emperor has obviously not found the charges ban worthy. If you want me and/or the Emperor to do more about it, then say so. But using it for political gain is childish.

As for "outlawing sacking," I am, yet again, being mis characterized. I have not outlawed sacking nor will I attempt to at this session. I discourage sacking. And I am strong against mandating that we sack. I am confident that we will do just fine without any sacking, but if my edict is renewed, it will still be a viable option for those who insist on doing it.

Bart has a good point. Exactly what cities would be sacked this term if Savva's edict passes. For one, this would ensure that both Crusade targets of Cairo and Alexandria will be sacked. Which is horrible. We go to save the people of Cairo only to sack them? Doesn't make much sense. Caesarea is about to fall and that would have to be sacked if the edict passes. But if you remember, Ampelas already sacked it. How many times does the poor castle have to be sacked? Which brings up another good point about the question on what happens to settlements we lose to the enemy, and then retake. Like Caesarea. If we lose a settlement, retake it, and it is not 51% Orthodox, does Savvas really expect us to sack it?

Many of our own settlements are not 51% Orthodox because the Caesar insisted that only special places can have the Word spread. And by special, I mean owned by his House. So, if the Order loses Adana or Aleppo to the enemy, then takes it back, Savvas would actually have us sack these tiny castles? Please, this is utterly ridiculous. Damascus will probably be taken this term so Savvas will demand I sack that as well. Ok, so we have Caesarea, Damascus, Cairo, Alexandria, and any non-Orthodox settlement we lose but then take back. Also, what if someone goes and takes Zagreb again. Do we sack that too? So basically, we will be forced to sack settlements we go on Crusade for, settlements we used to own, and the poor town of Damascus. Wow... And what wonderful liberators we shall be...

Privateerkev

08-15-2008, 17:12

*edit*

OOC:

I'm sorry, my browser locked up and double posted. :embarassed:

Kagemusha

08-15-2008, 17:33

" Makedonias. Your problem is that you want to over regulate everything through legistlation. To me that is a sign that you dont trust the judgement of the individual army commanders of the Empire. Laws that over limit the possible actions of field commanders are simply not needed. We should limit laws as guidelines or otherwise our glorious empire will turn into massive uneffective pile of bureocracy. Rules are not the only way to lead people. Trust is important part for people to feel appreciated and laws that imply that people cant be trusted and should be guided in detail all the time are unnecessary."

woad&fangs

08-15-2008, 17:49

As I read it Makedonious edict gives more freedom to the generals than Savvas' edict.

Andres

08-15-2008, 18:06

If I may ask, Savvas, what is your own experience of managing men? I believe a Comes has no vassals? What can we say about that? How can you manage the Empire if you have no experience at all with vassals?

Savvas turns to Manouelitis.

No experience with vassals? Dear Manouelitis, I don't have vassals, no, but I work behind the scenes. You see, young senator, the most important parts of diplomacy happen in private, where you can't see it.

Tagamta being a small House, I manage to be on good grounds with all other Houses, the Royal family, and, this will perhaps surprise you, I can even come to an agreement with the Order on some points.

Besides, is experience with vassals required to run an Empire?

Some of the Senators in this Magnaura will have to admit that I know very well how to negotiate.

Aleksios leans forward.

Leaving aside the insults and inane accusations that seem to make up a majority of this Session, I have a question for the two candidates:

Considering the current strategic situation of the Empire, what would be the military and diplomatic goals of your term?

With all due respect, dear Basileus, my words aren't intended to insult or accuse the Grandmaster. I am only showing that he lacks the necessary qualities of being Megas.

But I do have a plan, dear Basileus.

As for diplomacy, I will always drive a hard bargain. I will try to get the last florin out of anyone who is interested in trade rights and map information. I would also ask our Orthodox allies for small gifts in return for preferably nothing and if they insist, map information.

Allthough I would never ally with a muslim faction, if the opportunity is there and if the money is needed for the overall good of the Empire, I would see no harm in letting them pay for a temporary cease-fire, trade rights or map information, only to attack them again right away. If they are foolish enough to spend florins on us, than why should we refuse it? They are infidels, no more no less, and in love and war, everyting is allowed.

Alliances with Catholics can be made, but only if they are prepared to pay a decent amount of florins...

We have enough diplomats as it is now, so no need for training additional agents.

Zagreb needs to be retaken and I don't see no harm in sacking that settlement.

Cairo, Alexandria, Damascus, Caesarea, and any other settlement we conquer during my term as Megas should be sacked. As explained before, but our Grandmaster seems to refuse to understand it, sacking all settlements we conquer is the best thing we can do, even from a moral point of view. Do harm now to avoid disasters later. It's dirty, but it's necessary. It seems dispicable, but it isn't. It's a necessity.

After Cairo and Alexandria have been sacked, the war with the Fatamids will pretty much be over. I will communicate with our noble crusaders after they have taken said settlements and I will encourage them to also conquer the Castle of Gaza and convert it into a city.

The Order of the Knight's Templar are a pestilence for us in the region. It is a weak faction without allies. I would humbly request the Basileus to send a declaration of war against the Templar Knights and ask the Order of St John to take Tortosa and sack it.

I would also gather what units we can miss and send them by ship to Acre, to sack the settlement.

The money we gain can be used to build more military infrastructure in Dardanellia, Belgrade, Aleppo and Tbilisi.

But I will also invest in economical buildings in the coastal settlements, both in the West, the Centre and the East. This will ensure a steady income. You cannot talk about military if you don't talk about money as well. Soldiers need to be paid. Where possible and beneficial on the mid-long term, I will replace expensive mercenaries by cheaper regular units of similar quality.

The Western frontier will also be strengthened. Some Senators in the west are spending alot of time in their own settlements, blocking garrison units that can be used elsewhere. Senators who agree to cooperate and to let me use or (disband in case they are unnecessary) their units in case of an emergency, will be rewarded, others will receive nothing.

Constantinople has a large army within its' walls. I will train two or three additional regiments. I already mentioned Dardanellia. This castle is near Constantinople and I will train additional units of better quality to a) aid Constantinople if the city would be besieged; b) defend the region and intercept Jihads c) defend the region against the French Crusaders. We all know Jerusalem will fall soon against the German Crusaders. Those French won't go back to France empty handed...

As for the Levant, once Caesarea falls, the Seljuks will be broken. House Komnenodoukai and Asteri will have my support in their efforts.

I won't split the fleet. Having a large fleet has the advantage that it will defeat any enemy fleet it encounters. We don't want to lose expensive ships, let alone valuable armies travelling on said ships.

I know that what I propose will cost money, hence the need for the sacking of settlements.

Because some Senators will refuse to sack settlements (no doubt with the noblest intentions, but they are wrong),I feel they should be obliged by an Edict, namely the Edict I proposed.

woad&fangs

08-15-2008, 18:33

Savvas, may I bring to your attention that Zagreb is now owned by the Venetians? Do you intend to wage war against the Venetians also?

Also, I intend to capture either Gaza or Thebes during the next Megas term and I will refuse to sack either of those settlements. What do you intend to do when that happens?

Rowan

08-15-2008, 19:07

Well, if his grasp of the matters remains this low he probably won't even notice. Because Jerusalem has already been taken by the catholics and we already have a french army in our territory wondering which settlement they would like to sack now.

Ituralde

08-15-2008, 19:55

Pavlos bows towards Makedonios.

"I thank you for answering my question."

Cecil XIX

08-15-2008, 20:44

The Senator ek Militou's vision can be summarized in three parts.

It will make us all liars, by having us attack our peaceful neighbors and sign peace treaties which will we immediately break.

It will make us all murders, by forcing us to sack every settlement we come across, including settlements full of Orthodox Christians and Roman citizens.

Finaly, it will make us all tyrants by subverting our objective system of laws with a more subjective system of 'consensus', which can only result in Oligarchy.

Andres

08-15-2008, 21:44

Privateerkev

08-15-2008, 22:19

Makedonios looks at Kantakouzinos.

Ah, if you can't win with real debates then just mis-characterize your opponent. That seems to be the strategy of the Caesar's men.

Once I get a handle on the situation, I will allow commanders control over regional resources including agents, ships, and reinforcements.

And yes, in terms of sacking, it is actually Savvas who is introducing much more strict legislation than I. Ironic...

Looks at Savvas.

You propose us building our Empire upon a pile of skulls. You really would have us sack settlements we used to own, like Caesarea, wouldn't you. Truly remarkable...

Addresses the Senate.

I will make this very clear and very plain. Any man who attempts to order me to sack a settlement better do so in person and he better come with a sword in his hand.

woad&fangs

08-15-2008, 22:26

ooc: I got my information about Zagreb from the "Senate Library" thread.

Privateerkev

08-15-2008, 22:31

*edit*

OOC: I'm sorry this happened again. For some reason, the board keeps locking up and I have to refresh. When this happens, a double post is the result.

Askthepizzaguy

08-16-2008, 00:58

A letter arrives, stained in blood

To the Emperor of the decadent Roman Empire, and his underlings in the Imperial Senate;

The one known as Efstratios Monomachos, a Senator of the Roman empire and commander of mercenaries who committed crimes against the Durazzoan people, has been captured and executed by the Free Durazzo Movement.

Let it be known that should the one known as Michail Arianitis remain near the Durazzo region, he will be captured as well.

The time for the end of the Roman Empire is at hand. Your warlike ways have begun a holy conflict which will plunge the world into chaos, resulting in Armageddon. If the occupying forces of Durazzo do not remove themselves, more Roman Senators will be destroyed.

Do not underestimate us, we have allies in Athens and in other regions. Retreat back to Rome where you came from, or the wrath of the almighty God will come down upon you.

-General Ruggero, Free Durazzo Movement

OverKnight

08-16-2008, 08:51

Aleksios speaks:

Senators, the Crusade is on the cusp of liberating Egypt. I salute the bravery of the men involved in such a noble and holy endeavor. We must ensure that Orthodox Christianity is restored in that land.

With that in mind, I would like to propose the following Edict:

Edict 4.5: Patriarch Nicholas III will be transferred to the newly recreated Patriarchate of Alexandria. A Synod of the Church, chaired by the Basileus, will be called to select his replacement as Patriarch of Constantinople.

Patriarch Nicholas has been very closely involved with the implementation and progress of the Crusade, making him an ideal choice to be the Shepperd of our new flock. It was he who saw the suffering of Christians in Egypt and decided, without any assistance from the Senate, to do something about it. In addition, he already has a close working relationship with some of the Crusaders, most notably Vissarionas ek Lesvou, his man in Egypt even before the Crusade.

With such qualifications it would be an offense not to send the Patriarch to Egypt. I'm sure under his wise guidance that the Church will flourish there.

Kagemusha

08-16-2008, 10:22

" I second edict 4.5. It is the least we can do for the noble Patriarch."

Warmaster Horus

08-16-2008, 11:55

I second edict 4.5 as well.

_Tristan_

08-16-2008, 12:23

Still looking drawn, his skin with a feverish sheen, Methodios stands.

My Lord,

If you please, seeing how I should be the one to claim Alexandria, if God wills it... I think I should be asked if I wish to enjoy the Patriarch's company...

There was once a Patriarch in Antioch : why isn't there one now ?

I do not like to have decisions forced upon me. Cairo would be a better seat for the Patriarch, as his views are closer to those of the Order who are about to claim it.

With a slight bow to the Basileos, Methodios sits down.

Ignoramus

08-16-2008, 13:32

Ioannis Komnenos rises to speak.

Strator Tagaris, Alexandria has always been a patriarchate. Cairo is a city founded by the infidel, populated by the infidel, and in essence is infidel.

Sitting back down, Ioannis begins to write.

_Tristan_

08-16-2008, 14:00

Methodios adresses the Caesar.

Much as Antioch was also a Patriarchate, why isn't it one now, then ?

Ignoramus

08-16-2008, 14:35

Looking up from his papers, Ioannis responds.

Antioch is closer to Constantinople than Alexandria. While I also would like to see a Antioch receive her Patriarch, Alexandria has a greater need. Remember, we have not held the city for almost 500 years.

GeneralHankerchief

08-16-2008, 15:21

Patriarchal Representative:

Very cute, Basileus. I didn't think you would have had the balls to propose it at this Session.

For your information, Senators, the Basileus does have an ulterior motive for proposing this:

Ioannis, Anna and Senators (OOC: And TC as I want to run this by him):

While no hard evidence has emerged to implicate Patriarch Nicholas III with involvement in triggering a crisis in Egypt or with the Organization, the man is obviously rife with sin. He has exceeded, by a far measure, his God given authority, suborning the foreign policy and military resources of the Empire. I tire of his lackey's slander and insinuations in the Senate. There is only room enough in the Empire for one Vice-Regent of the Lord, and that would be the Basileus.

He must be dealt with before he can threaten Imperial succession. It is the Patriarch of Constantinople, after all, who serves at the Coronation of a new Basileus. While his direct control of the title of Basileus is less than those schismatic Popes and their sham Emperors in the west, he could cause problems.

Therefore I am thinking of proposing the following Charter Amendment, technically it will not change the Charter, but I believe it will need a super majority to be legal:

Charter Amendment 4.x: Patriarch Nicholas III will be transferred to the newly recreated Patriarchate of Alexandria. A Synod of the Church, chaired by the Basileus, will be called to select his replacement as Patriarch of Constantinople.

I will introduce this by speaking of a need for a gifted and strong man to restore the Word of God in liberated Egypt. Since the Patriarch has shown such concern for the Christians there, he is the natural choice for such a holy task, to continue the work of the Crusade he called.

Thoughts? (OOC: TC, would this be acceptable?)

Basileus Aleksios

Unfortunately, this is nothing more than a blatant power grab to keep His Eminence out of the Emperor's way. You'll notice that His Eminence and myself have not exactly been the most praising of the Basileus and his son? Exactly. This is just a plan to remove a critic with one fell swoop as well as extend more control over Orthodoxy, a recipe that has never worked.

Warmaster Horus

08-16-2008, 15:28

Exactly who received this information? And how did the Patriarch get it?

GeneralHankerchief

08-16-2008, 15:31

Patriarchal Representative:

The Basileus, I suppose, sent this out to the group of Senators whom he considered loyal right around the start of the session. At least one of them recognized the work for what it was and forwarded it to His Eminence.

TinCow

08-16-2008, 19:22

The Protoasecretes his staff on the floor several times.

"The time for proposing legislation has now expired. Voting will commence shortly and will be open until 19:00 GMT on Monday, August 18th."

Ibn-Khaldun

08-16-2008, 20:46

Hearing the Protoasecretes saying that the time to propose new legislations is over made Efstathios shake his head and look around with confusion..

Already?? I can't believe it!

Warmaster Horus

08-16-2008, 21:47

Senators, I must say that though I seconded Edict 4.5, I was unaware of the Basileus' machinations; which explains why I voted no on that.
I hope the Patriarch and those loyal to him may forgive me, though I'm sure another would have seconded the edict.

GeneralHankerchief

08-16-2008, 21:52

Patriarchal Representative:

I'm sure His Eminence forgives you as you did not know the Basileus's true motive for proposing it at the time of your seconding. In any case, I don't think it matters; it's within the Basileus's power to propose an Edict that does not require seconders.

OverKnight

08-17-2008, 00:46

Aleksios seems surprised at the revelation of the letter, a sad smile crossing his features. Giving a small shrug he speaks:

Very well let's cut to the chase then. I had hoped that this could have been done in a more diplomatic fashion, but here we are.

Is anyone else not offended by the presumptious, bordering on treasonous, attitude of the Patriarch and his proxy? The way he has inserted himself into the affairs of the Senate? He has overstepped his station, upsetting the balance between Church and State. Even more insulting is that he hasn't at least had the "balls" to do this in person, he sends his lickspittle to act as our better. How can he tend to his flock, to pretend to care about the Church, if he never leaves the Patriarchal Palace?

He sits in there like a spider in his web, plotting.

He thinks himself a schismatic Pope, acting as a monarch, calling for Crusades and putting himself above the Basileus and the Senate. Just like the Pope he might begin to whore out the title of Emperor, selling it to the highest bidder.

I will not allow this to continue, I ask for the assistance of the Senate. There is only room for one Sovreign in the Empire, and it is not a Priest.

GeneralHankerchief

08-17-2008, 02:29

Patriarchal Representative:

Allow precisely what to continue? The fact that there is one facet of Byzantine society that is not under your direct control? Of course; I apologize. The nerve of His Eminence, I know.

The fact that His Eminence sends me here to liaise with you rather than enter here in person serves to reinforce the point that he is separate from this political entity. He does not come here because he knows better than to dictate political policy. His Eminence trying to dictate political policy would be as inappropriate as, say, one of you trying to direct religious policy - oh wait, that's exactly what the Basileus wants to happen.

Name me one time where the Patriarch has overstepped his boundaries and interfered in political policy. Name me one time where *I* have done so in this body. The Crusade, as much as the Basileus would have you believe otherwise, was a strictly religious matter. His Eminence saw a genocide of Christians taking place, and he decided to take matters to remedy this problem. Such is his duty as leader of the Orthodox faith. And, I'll have you all know, the Crusade took zero funds out of the Byzantine coffers. Zero, which means the Patriarch has not interfered with military policy one iota.

His Eminence, Basileus, is not above the Senate, he is separate from it. The two operate in different spheres, spheres which the Patriarch has been careful to maintain. He is a noble man, toiling away day and night to better the Orthodox faith, the one true path to salvation. He deserves better than this.

In contrast, look at yourself, Basileus. Despite your position as overseer of the entire Empire, you endorsed the candidacy and later failed to condemn the actions of a man who openly broke both laws and rules and promoted his own House whilst the others were left to their own devices. Even now, in this very body, you lie to the noble Senators present here who are not deemed worthy enough to join your inner circle. You bring forth the initial edict, in the name of rewarding the work of His Eminence, and fool at least one Senator into believing it while its true motive is to get rid of an imagined threat; a motive that would have gone unrevealed had I not made your letter public.

Senators: The Basileus is a favoritist and an admitted liar. And now he wishes to take over all of Orthodoxy while he's at it, putting all of our salvation at risk, by blasting the benevolent and Holy Patriarch out of the way. This is a true despot rearing its ugly head, concerned for nothing but the advancement of his own agenda. This must not be allowed to happen.

deguerra

08-17-2008, 04:55

Ioannis stands to speak

I am about to cast my vote, and seeing as it is likely to cause some anger, I thought I might try to justify my actions here. Not that I feel I need to justify my voting, but I think it is good to bring debates out into the open so that they can be properly addressed.

As I see it, there are currently two factions building.

One of them advocates a strong central authority, as has historically been the case. They doubtlessly have the best intentions for our Empire. They wish to see it strong, our borders protected, the battles brought to our enemies. But, it must be said, with a strong central authority comes the risk that that authority is abused. Caesar Ioannis is my brother and I find it befitting of Senators to stoop to personal attacks. None the less, I too felt that power was used a tad arbitrarily during his terms as our Megas, and I would be unhappy to see it repeated.

The other side advocates more localized power-bases, and seeks to ensure that the central authority is put within reasonable boundaries, so that all may prosper and none will be left behind. They too, are stalwart guardians of the Empire, they too seek to see it in a position of strength. However, in doing so, they run the risk of severely alienating those who have been granted a God-given right to rule this Empire, but more importantly destabilizing a tried and tested system of power and authority that cannot easily be usurped without resulting chaos.

I have thought long and hard about this brewing conflict, which threatens to burst out into the open every so often and attacks the unity and strength that we need to keep this Empire alive. With that in mind, I have decided to choose neither side.

I will vote for Grandmaster Makedonios as Megas this term. I do so not to spite my brother, my father or my friend Savvas, I do so because I believe that what this Empire needs most at this time is balance. I believe that Makedonios is a good man, and will be an able and fair Megas, but more importantly, I believe that in order for our system of chancellery to work, we must strive to ensure that alternatives are given the chance to be displayed, so that we may judge them equally. The Caesar has had a turn of rule, he will have another when he becomes our God-given ruler. I think in order to keep the balance that this turn should belong to Makedonios.

I will vote for Edict 4.3. I have always believed in it, and supporting it has nothing to do with the current political situation but merely reflects my beliefs.

I will vote for Edict 4.4. There are some ideas that limit the central authority in absurd and detrimental ways, but this is not one. Indeed, I believe that it merely ensures that all areas of the Empire are strengthened somewhat equally. I cannot see how this will have a detrimental effect on us.

I will abstain from voting on Edict 4.5. This is likely to cause some anger, and for that I apologise, but I must honestly say that both sides of the argument have some validity. In the end, I am inclined to support the views of the Basileos, but I dislike the idea of transferring the Patriarch to Alexandria as punishment. If he oversteps his authority, he should simply be removed from office.

I wholeheartedly support CA 4.1. As I stated, I believe the last Megas term did not go perfectly, and I think this and Edict 4.4 will go a long way to restoring some support for our central authority.

By way of ending, let me appeal to you all. Disagreements and factionalism are an integral and indeed important part of our political system and ensure that things work as they should. However, at no time should we resort to petty personal insults and sheer demonstrations of power-grabbing.

Balance is integral. I intend to bring House Asteri on a path of balance. I do so knowing I may incur the wrath of both sides. But I do so in the strong belief that it is what must be done, and what will ensure the continued prosperity of all. I would ask that all consider this before passing judgment.

pevergreen

08-17-2008, 11:57

Makedonios raises an eyebrow at Michail.

Let me get this straight. You stand outside of a town... for decades... and then come back here after a long absence... and then vote to order us all to sack?

Michail flips a dagger in his hand calmly, not even bothering to look at Makedonios.

"Sir, I have but been outside of my town for a few years now, conducting field training for my men. I have not returned as I have received multiple letters about how the city is no longer safe to me.

I did not order you to sack, I just despise you and everything you stand for Makedonios. Needless to say, my vote is for Savvas."

Privateerkev

08-17-2008, 16:15

I seem to recall Protoasecretes saying something about weapons.

"Finally, violence will not be permitted in the Magnaura! Limit your attacks to verbal sparring only! Any Senator bringing a weapon into the building, or raising his fist to a fellow Senator, will be forcibly removed by the guards. This is Constantinople, not Rome! We do not stab each other to death in this Senate!"

So, put your dagger in your chambers or I will ask the Emperor to remove you from the building Michail.

OverKnight

08-17-2008, 16:44

Aleksios looks up from some correspondence.

Verbal sparring only please. If you two wish to knife each other, take it over to the Hippodrome, they'll wager on anything.

TinCow

08-18-2008, 20:32

A scribe rushes over and hands the Protoasecretes a scroll with the tally from the election for Megas Logothetes. The old man unrolls it and squints at the writing. Eventually he clears his throat to speak.

"The Senate has chosen and the next Megas Logothetes will be Senator Tied."

After a few moments of silence, the Protoasecretes glances around the room suspiciously.

"Well, where is the buffoon?! Late for his own victory celebration! Hmph... why, in my day..."

A scribe rushes over and whispers in the man's ear.

"WHAT?! What do you mean the vote was tied?! Votes for Megas Logothetes are never tied! No, I've never heard of such a thing. Not in Roman times, before the coming of that fool Servius Aemilius. Not even in that barbaric Germanic cesspool that calls itself some kind of Roman Empire! No vote for a leader has ever been tied before!"

The Protoasecretes glares at the scroll again for a moment.

"Fetch me the Byzantine Charter!"

Two scribes duck out of the chamber. The various supporters of the two candidates for election eye each other nervously from their various vantage points. Eventually the two scribes return carrying a massive tome. They lay it down in front of the Protoasecretes on a portable table which is brought in by a third scribe. The old man opens it and begins leafing through the dusty pages.

"Let's see here... ah, yes. Rule 3.7 - In the event that a vote for Megas Logothetes is tied, the Senator who can correctly guess the weight of a freshly plucked, still living duck will be given the right to jump from the back of the Imperial Elephant and... oh, wait, no... that Rule was changed by a Charter Amendment in 833. Ah, here it is... a tie in an election will lead to a fresh ballot! Well, that's a bit boring, isn't it? I remember by grandfather telling me about the election of eight-ought-five, when the vote was tied between no less than seventeen different candidates and each of them was an expert duck farmer. Why..."

A scribe whispers in the Protoasecretes ear again.

"SHUT UP!"

The Protoasecretes smacks the young man in the head, and the boy recoils quickly.

"Ehem, yes, where was I? Oh, right. The election is tied, therefore a new ballot will have to be taken. As this is unprecedented in the history of the entire Known World, I will re-oppen the Senate floor for debate for a 24 hour period. This period will expire at 20:00 GMT on Tuesday, August 19. After that period of debate is over, another 48 hour period of voting will commence. In accordance with the Rules, if the vote remains tied at that point, the eldest candidate for Megas will be chosen."

Kagemusha

08-18-2008, 20:37

"I would have preferred that Basileos could have decided the outcome in case of a tie..."

Ioannis glances towards the grandmaster with a teasing smile on his face and continues.

"But im happy to cast my ballot again."

Privateerkev

08-18-2008, 20:37

Makedonios sits at his table looking at election returns. He sips from a glass of cool water and it is clear from his puffy eyes that he has been awake all night following the election. When he hears the news of the revote, he sets the water down.

I see this will continue then. Alright, if anyone has any further questions for me, I'd be happy to answer them.

Ibn-Khaldun

08-18-2008, 20:49

Privateerkev

08-18-2008, 20:54

I assume those units will be used to garrison the settlements and to protect the area. I will not disband them. What I will do is look at what could be disbanded throughout the Empire. I will then talk to the commanders involved and ask permission to disband what is no longer needed. Every little bit will help.

If anyone is worried about their units being disbanded, they can ask the owner of the settlement to legally "lock" them in a garrison.

GeneralHankerchief

08-18-2008, 20:56

Patriarchal Representative:

What about legislation? Will there be a re-vote on them or are their results set in stone?

Ibn-Khaldun

08-18-2008, 21:18

All legislations passed so this means.. their result are in stone

I do have a question though.. Since it the Senate Session is opened again then is it possible to propose new legislations during the next '24 hours'??

TinCow

08-18-2008, 21:24

The Protoasecretes scowls at the Senators.

"No! No legislation may be proposed during this period of debate. That was apparently allowed until 729 AD, when some idiotic Caesar put forward an amendment which got rid of the policy. Though, I suppose that did save us all some trouble, as every Senator who proposed new legislation under the old laws had to do it while jumping up and down on one foot while standing backwards in a chariot pulled by three pheasants. Ah, those were the days..."

Andres

08-18-2008, 21:25

Efstathios raises..

If it is a tie then it is a .. well.. tie..

Anyway.. I have a question..

What will happen to the units that have followed our brave Crusaders, just like me Efstathios smiles.., after the Crusade is over?? Will the next Megas disband them?? Leave them under the control of their current commander?? Or what??

The brave Crusaders will need their units to control the area.

Disbanding of units in the newly conquered regions will only be done if the generals present in the area agree. I don't want the Senators who were brave enough to join on the Crusade die over there. Besides, we will need the money generated by those settlements and you won't be able to keep them without an army.

Ibn-Khaldun

08-18-2008, 21:32

Looking at Protoasecretes Efstathios sigh and says quietly..

When do we get rid of that senile fool?!

Addressing the rest of the Senate..

I'm fine with both of the Candidates if they leave me and my troops alone..
I know most of them for a long time.. even before the Crusade and disbanding their units would be.. well.. most unfortunate..

TinCow

08-18-2008, 21:41

"I'm not deaf you know! You'd better be glad that Basileus Akronomius II abolished Rule 8.7 - Insulting the Protoasecretes, otherwise you'd be facing the wrong end of a mule right about now!"

Ibn-Khaldun

08-18-2008, 21:50

Efstathios raises his eyebrow and says whispers to his aid..

And I thought that he is deaf..

Ramses II CP

08-18-2008, 22:02

A letter arrives from Vissarionas ek Lesvou and is read into the record by a sweating, uncomfortable scribe:

Even the messengers of this body must be severely in decline with regards to their ability, unless I am expected to believe that the Megas election was actually a tie. In any case I have sent my vote in once more just in case.

Now, would anyone care to explain why the oldest candidate wins by default in the event of a tie? Is there no more objective, useful criteria available?

Vissarionas ek Lesvou

With a gentle shudder the scribe glances up, and smiles in relief. As he is walking away from the floor he casually flips the note over, and instantly turns the color of curdled milk. Slowly, shamefacedly he walks back to the center of the floor and again addresses the chamber.

P.S. And the Caesar is still a dirt worshipping, dog loving, blind beast. The Muslims of Alexandria called him a hero as I rode by, and cried out to me asking when he would arrive to save them and slay more Crusaders!

:egypt:

Kagemusha

08-18-2008, 23:07

After listening the words of the letter Ioannis stands up and looks towards the emperor and says.

"Because of the continuous slander of Vissarionas ek Lesvou, against the Caesar and with him the imperial family, i hereby officially suggest for Basileus to close this man from the Senate and by so nullify his voting rights also for an period of time. The continuous insults towards the future Emperor and Imperial family must stop, or we will loose all civilized manner in the Senate. What says the Emperor?"

Ibn-Khaldun

08-18-2008, 23:10

Efstathios looks at Kantakouzinos..

Well.. So far Vissarionas have said only the truth.. So I don't see why to ban him..

Kagemusha

08-18-2008, 23:20

Kantakouzinos turns towards Laskaris with chilling gaze in his eyes and lowering his voice ask´s.

"So you think that your future Emperor is murderer of Bysantine crusaders, that he has willingly killed his future subjects, like Ek Lesvou wrote in his slandering letter? And you are saying that here in front of the whole senate?"

Ibn-Khaldun

08-18-2008, 23:21

Now if you put it that way then.. I think I am saying all that!

Efstathios smiles..

woad&fangs

08-18-2008, 23:25

An ironic accusation, Laskaris.

Kagemusha

08-18-2008, 23:28

"In that case you should be banned from senate just as Ek Lesvou should. You are going too far with your slander. Calling the Caesar a murderer of his own people borders treason."

Ibn-Khaldun

08-18-2008, 23:32

I wouldn't call it treason.. I would call it merely the truth!

Motep

08-18-2008, 23:41

I wouldn't call it treason.. I would call it merely the truth!

A truth that borders on treason, as it were. In either rate, he is not the emperor yet, so he is merely being called a murderer of his father's people.

Kagemusha

08-18-2008, 23:46

"The only problem being that Caesar has not murdered anyone. This slander does not have any kind of proof behind it. These two men have just shown that their personal hatred of Caesar for reasons unknown has made them spread lies and they should be punished for it."

Privateerkev

08-19-2008, 00:16

Motep

08-19-2008, 00:21

Warmaster Horus

08-19-2008, 00:34

Would it be insulting if I asked you whether you were truly your brother's brother? Because what you have just said, Andronikos, is more or less what he's been doing.

TheFlax

08-19-2008, 01:28

A note at the entrance of the Magnaura.

The following have been accepted for the position of Scholar in the University of Constantinople for the period of 1125 to 1140.

- Strator Andronikos Komnenos
- Comes Methodios Tagaris
- Hypatos Armatos ek Naksou
- Hypatos Ioannis Kalameteros
- Ceasar Ioannis Komnenos

OverKnight

08-19-2008, 01:42

Aleksios looks around and shakes his head.

Considering that we have an unprecedented tied election on our hands, I would think the Electors would have something better to do than slander my son.

Let us focus on the matter at hand.

pevergreen

08-19-2008, 02:53

Dear Sirs, the next man to insult our Ceasar, shall face my wrath.

I implore everyone to realise what a sham the "Order" is and realise that the only way forward is Savvas.

deguerra

08-19-2008, 03:09

Ioannis gets up with an irritated frown

And what, pray, constitutes your wrath?

I tire of your petty threats to Senators of the Empire. I tire of all these personal insults and this squabbling. For crying out loud, you are grown men, nobles and tasked with running a government. If you cannot face this task with some of the required maturity perhaps you should ask to be replaced with men more suited to the position.

Motep

08-19-2008, 03:41

To get back to the task at hand,

I proclaim my support for the Grandmaster Makedonios Ksanthopoulos.

Ignoramus

08-19-2008, 04:01

Ioannis, slightly annoyed at the yapping senators, rises to speak.

I will ignore the slander poured on me by the members of the Order. They are not important. What is important is the fact that we have a tied election for the post of Megas Logothetes. As this event is unprecedented in our empire's long history, I ask each senator to reflect carefully on whom he shall vote for.

I reaffirm my support for Savvas ek Militou. He is a worthy candidate, and has the interests of the empire as a whole at heart. He has proved to be above partisan politics, and has proved himself well in battle. While all of us in the east were eager for war with the Seljuks, he accepted the mundane task of putting down insurrections. Surely that is to be commended.

While Senator Ksanthopoulos waxes eloquently on the need for balance in the empire, he makes little mention of the fact that the lands of controlled by his Order are the least developed in the empire. How can you expect him to be balanced under such a policy? We will see the lands of the Order take priority because "they are in the most need".

Ioannis resumes his seat.

Ignoramus

08-19-2008, 04:01

Privateerkev

08-19-2008, 04:09

Amused that the Caesar gave the same exact speech twice, Makedonios addresses him.

Slander? You deny that you broke the Rules during your term? Can it be slander if it is true?

As for the Levant being the least developed, that is only because of your own criminal neglect. And while you jump to the assumption that I would show favoritism to the Levant, I am happy to inform you that you are quite wrong. I will distribute what resources there are evenly without regard as to who owns which province. All subjects of the Empire are deserving of the benefits of the Empire, regardless of which politician governs the province.

And yes, what Comes Savvas has done is quite commendable. But, while you commend him, you failed to support him when he needed it. When you were busy sinking all of your resources into your pet projects, he was busy gathering local garrisons together to protect our heartlands from Jihad.

deguerra

08-19-2008, 04:11

Ioannis rises, and bows to the Caesar

Actually, my Lord, it was I who waxed eloquently about balance.

Andres

08-19-2008, 06:59

Makedonios listens to the people argue over the Caesar with mild amusement.

Alright, lets settle down a little. While I would have picked slightly more... diplomatic language than my Sergeant, the Senate is the proper place to voice dissent.

As for the Caesar murdering his own people, I do find him guilty of "criminal neglect." My complaints are well documented so I will be brief. The Caesar illegally starved the armies of the Order of men. This caused us to take higher casualties than normal when we had to defeat the Jihad heading towards the capital. So, because of his actions, or lack of action, more people died than probably would have normally.

I won't go so far to call him a murderer because I do not think he was trying to kill our soldiers on purpose. I think he was simply trying to hurt his political opponents and the Jihad just happened to come along while he did it. But his actions were neglectful, as well as criminal. Because he broke our "rules" when he neglected those armies. Rules that are "supposed" to be sacrosanct.

As for who gets banned, that is up to the Emperor. I am confident he will let us know when someone crosses a line.

This looks like a nice speech, but it is, in fact, no more than slander.

Rather ironic, isn't it? You constantly accused me of insulting you (which isn't true by the way), yet you don't refrain from lowering yourself to personal attacks versus our Caesar.

And yet again, you subtetly make it clear that the main priority during your reign will be the Order... After all, since the Caesar "neglected" the Order, you will have to "rebuild" their armies and settlements, don't you?

Tell me Makedonios, how is it possible that the "neglected" Order, which has faced so much "injustice" while the Caesar was Megas, managed to stay strong in the Levant?

You always say how the Caesar didn't help me out while Corinth was besieged. But I never complained! You say that I was being ignored by the Caesar, but I, the person concerned, say that this is not true. I had all the resources necessary to obtain victory against the Fatimid crown prince. Instead of constantly whining about "injustices", I accepted that resources were scarce and that the last Megas wasn't able to recruit reinforcements. Instead of whining, House Tagamata tried to find a solution themselves, and we found a solution, thanks to the esteemed House Asteri (Savvas nods to the tables of the Asteri).

I am sure you will yell "personal attacks" at me yet again, but the fact is that in times of peril, I didn't waste my time whining in the Senate. Instead, I tried to make the best out of a difficult situation.

You, dear Grandmaster, produce alot of air, while I just do my duty in silence.

To get back to the task at hand,

I proclaim my support for the Grandmaster Makedonios Ksanthopoulos.

Dear Senator, I realise you are still young and inexperienced, but it seems a bit tasteless that you swear an oath, only to ignore the opinions of your House members and your direct Lord. Maybe you should consult them in private, before casting your vote.

We don't want you to get the reputation of a disloyal House member so soon, do we?

Privateerkev

08-19-2008, 07:10

Savvas, do you deny that the Caesar broke THE RULES?

Andres

08-19-2008, 07:23

Savvas, do you deny that the Caesar broke THE RULES?

Necessitas non habet legem...

Besides, exactly what disasters happened during the reign of the Caesar? Where's the damage?

And I would also like the Senators to reflect on this: is a man who constantly complains about regulations instead of dealing with the situation at hand, using the resources at hand, is such a man fit for the office of Megas?

Let's assume that during the coming reign, a disaster does happen. Who would you want in charge: a man who keeps staring at his books, in disbelief that a certain rule was broken, or a man who carries on, using the resources he has and making the best of a situation.

Do you want a man who knows how to deal with unexpected circumstances, or do you want a nitpicker?

ULC

08-19-2008, 07:39

Lady Veronica, who is is at least 6 months with child, makes her way into the Magnaura, and sits down in her husbands seat. She reads the transcripts from the past few days and emotions from humor to anger cross her face. Finally, after she has satisfied herself, she gives Savvas a glance before addressing the senators.

"I am sorry my husband was unable to attend, his injuries make it extremely difficult fro him to move and he is bedridden for now. As I read these documents though, I begin to wonder at why my husband would even come to the Magnaura. Do you discuss anything of importance? The only man here who even suggested anything coherent and intelligent is Vartholomaios. Otherwise, it has been useless bickering between men who can't agree over the color of the sky."

Lady Veronica turns to Savvas

"M'lod, if you would please tell me why on earth you would have us sack cities, when you wish to scorn Makedonios for one that he had no control over? Do you wish to hang lives over everyone's heads and then remind them later when they go against you what monsters they are? Is there any reason that you require the sacking of cities to fund an Empire that not only remained stable under Markianos, but grew? Are you implying you don't have the skill of knowing how to count money well enough to be Megas? May I ask how you see Makedonios asserting his rights as a senator "whining"? So, if I simply denied you an army, which currently you have no right to, but say you did, would you not complain as the Venetians encroached on your land? May I ask why you see the law of the land as something very flexible, and to be brushed to the side whenever you see fit? If so, then my husband can simply recruit what he needs then, since we all know that Adana is near Turkish territory and that the rules are flexible enough to allow him to insure the defense of his holdings. I am sure the Caesar will see the wisdom in it."

Veronica delicately picks up another document. "Savvas, how attentive are you to the current situation on the eastern front? Because if you knew anything about it, you would see that House Asteri and the Order are ridiculously weak as of right now. The only real armies in all of the Empire are those controlled by the Caesar, and the one in this very city. May I ask how you will address not the quantity, but the quality of those in the Empires armies? When mentioning areas that need to be reinforced, may I ask why you neglectfully left Adana out of them?"

Lady Veronica then turns to Makedonios. "Grandmaster, I am sure you know of my husbands condition, and how it came about because of politics. May I ask what you intend to do about internal politics? We cannot simply say one will get all the senators to work well together. Balance can only be achieved if all sides agree to it, otherwise one side will do what it must to tip the odds in it's favor to the determent of all others. So, may I ask, how do you plan to resolve inter House issues?"

Cecil XIX

08-19-2008, 07:47

The Senator ek Militou likes to ignore facts when they don't suit him. With one breath he asks how the Order managed to stay strong and defeat the Egyptian Jihad, and with the other he chides the Grandmaster for not 'dealing with the situation.'

The Caesar suffers from an even worse problem. He proclaims that the Order's territories are the least developed in his empire, and with the same breath warns us that the Grandmaster may use a lack of infastructure to justify building more infastructure.

OverKnight

08-19-2008, 08:22

The Basileus has been dejectedly listening to arguments going on around him. A messenger approaches and hands him a note. After reading it, Aleksios stands and speaks.

Excuse me Senators and Lady, but I have some matters to attend to. I will return shortly.

Try to maintain some level of decorum.

Summoning his Varangian Captain Harald, he exits the Magnaura.

Andres

08-19-2008, 08:54

Savvas looks a Veronica

Mylady, I am still suffering from severe injuries from the battle of Corinth, yet I manage to attend this Senate Session.

I take it your husband doesn't take his duties as seriously as I do? That's a disappointment...

Anyway, the reason why I ask to sack cities has been utterly explained by me. Maybe you should re read your notes. I also explained several times why it is even better from a moral point of view, if you would only manage to think on the long term, long term as in "longer than one Megas-term". In order to do so, one must have a vision. As I explained before, the Grandmaster, who surely has the best interest of the Empire in mind, lacks such a vision. So it's not a matter of "knowing how to count money".

I also never said that the law of the land is something to be ignored, please, don't twist my words.

And if Venetians would attack my lands, than I would worry about the Venetians and I wouldn't just assume the Megas is deliberately ignoring my needs. I would send him a letter to ask for help and I would organise my defenses while waiting and I would also prepare for a worst case scenaria in case the Megas cannot help or cannot send me help in time, instead of wasting time travelling back and forth between the frontline and Constantinople, to plead in the Magnaura for my personal needs.

I would be more dedicated to the Empire itself and less dedicated to my own personal gains...

You will also remember that I plea for a war against the Order of the Knights Templar, who are without allies. These Knights are a great annoyance for the Order and they would gain a strategical advantage if they would defeat the Knights' Templar. Isn't it ironic, that the so called "foe of the Order of St John" has actually made a proposal that would hugely benefict said Order?

And as for inter House issues, if there is one person who tries to arrange agreements between the Houses by extensively working behind the scenes, that it's me.

You should ask you husband about this. Maybe you could mention a certain matter of the utmost delicacy while talking to him about certain actions behind the scenes.

Savvas sits down again.

ULC

08-19-2008, 09:31

Lady Veronica almost smiles sardonically

"My husband is sitting somewhere between life and death, and you would have him appear before you when even the best physicians of the Empire can do nothing more then pray? Do not compare Iakovos with yourself Savvas."

"As to his duties, I would suggest you hold your tongue. He has done more for the Empire, without compensation, glory, or recognition, then you have or ever will know."

"Yes, and you explanation rings hollow. By your suggestion then, Hypatios was justified in his actions because it prevented any harm "later on", and if thats true, then I suggest you cease attempting to characterize Makedonios as a butcher, because his men only prevented further harm "later on". And if Markianos could accomplish what he did without a mandate for sacking every city, how come you can't? Again, it seems to me that your ability to handle financial affairs is severely lacking, or you have ulterior motives for suggesting such an idea."

"Speaking of waiting patiently, Makedonios waited 15 years to have his army taken care of. Shall we wait 15 years to help you? 15 years locked inside a settlement by besieging Normans and Venetians? That would be rather terrible of us, wouldn't it? I'd think you would have every right to make your voice heard, and thus the Grandmaster had every right to be vocal. Do not hold double standards were they can be scrutinized Savvas, it makes one look...poor, morally."

"May I ask how you intend to for the Order of St.John to defeat the knights Templar without the Basileus's permission and with the current armies they have? And what if the Order wishes to pursue other avenues of expansion? Would you bind them to heavy losses and pitiful gain by sending them after a group of Knights that, however misguided, believe in the same ideals as the Order of St.John?"

"And if you try to imply that my husband is somehow working behind the scenes for, heaven knows what, I may just die from laughter. But really, you didn't answer my question at all Savvas, in fact, you seem not to like to answer questions at all, preferring instead to simply retort and try to poke holes in your opponents arguments. I suggest you give clear answers, otherwise some may start to doubt you. So, I ask again, how do you intend to handle inter-house relations? Think about each House and how it functions before you retort and try to poke wholes in my statements, since I don't think you can answer."

Andres

08-19-2008, 10:07

"Yes, and you explanation rings hollow. By your suggestion then, Hypatios was justified in his actions because it prevented any harm "later on", and if thats true, then I suggest you cease attempting to characterize Makedonios as a butcher, because his men only prevented further harm "later on". And if Markianos could accomplish what he did without a mandate for sacking every city, how come you can't? Again, it seems to me that your ability to handle financial affairs is severely lacking, or you have ulterior motives for suggesting such an idea."

Hypatios exterminated a settlement, he did not sack it...

Savvas rolls his eyes.

And these are different times. Don't compare Ampelas' period with this period.

"Speaking of waiting patiently, Makedonios waited 15 years to have his army taken care of. Shall we wait 15 years to help you? 15 years locked inside a settlement by besieging Normans and Venetians? That would be rather terrible of us, wouldn't it? I'd think you would have every right to make your voice heard, and thus the Grandmaster had every right to be vocal. Do not hold double standards were they can be scrutinized Savvas, it makes one look...poor, morally."

What if, what if, what if, ... I don't do politics based on assumptions about imaginary scenarios, produced by the fantasies of a pregnant woman, thank you.

I do not hold double standards either mylady, I have merely pointed out the fact that while the Caesar was Megas, the Order was the only one constantly complaining, the rest of us did what they were supposed to do, without wasting time complaining in the Magnaura during difficult times...

"May I ask how you intend to for the Order of St.John to defeat the knights Templar without the Basileus's permission and with the current armies they have? And what if the Order wishes to pursue other avenues of expansion? Would you bind them to heavy losses and pitiful gain by sending them after a group of Knights that, however misguided, believe in the same ideals as the Order of St.John?"

If you would have paid attention, you would have noticed that I aksed the Basileus to send a declaration of war to the Knights Templar. If the Basileus does not want to declare war, then obviously, I won't either...

And I also said that the Order would get what they are entitled to get, so they would have the means to defeat the Knights Templar.

"And if you try to imply that my husband is somehow working behind the scenes for, heaven knows what, I may just die from laughter. But really, you didn't answer my question at all Savvas, in fact, you seem not to like to answer questions at all, preferring instead to simply retort and try to poke holes in your opponents arguments. I suggest you give clear answers, otherwise some may start to doubt you. So, I ask again, how do you intend to handle inter-house relations? Think about each House and how it functions before you retort and try to poke wholes in my statements, since I don't think you can answer."

Watch your tongue, woman, I wouldn't want to see you die from laughter...

And how I would handle inter house relations? Discrete as in "not in public". Delicate matters are best treated calm, serene and discrete. I won't discuss that here, in the Senate, with somebody, with all due respect, is not member of a House but just a mere representative.

Only fools would discuss how to deal with inter House relations in public and I am no fool.

ULC

08-19-2008, 10:21

Andres

08-19-2008, 10:43

I see you avoided answering me again, Savvas. I also asked how you can justify your actions now, when you sneer at what Makedonios's men did years ago? And enlighten me, give me specifics on how this period, with it's rapid territorial expansion and thus more taxes and more income, has less money available to it?

This are not fantasies, but plausible realities. Do not confuse the two Savvas, or one might question your sanity and ability to be Megas. And if you are unwilling to not consider ones possible future predicament, then how can we trust you as Megas? For such a forward thinker, you seem to prefer to take in the here and now."

Again, you take only half my question. Again, what if the Order of St.John does not wish for war?

Veronica chuckles. "Oh, do try me Savvas, please. Either way, answer the question I put forward. Here, let me give you an example so as to make it easier for you. Say The Order refuses to sack a settlement, such as Damascus or even Edessa. What will you do? Or, even better, say a dispute arisses over who should have their army replenished first, House Asteri or House Komnenodoukai, who would get the troops, taking in that all royal armies are filled?"

"No, only those with ulterior motives who do not want them revealed, refuse discussing their policies."

I agreed with the Grandmaster himself not to mention what you are alluding to. I will stick to my end of that deal.

Convenient? Maybe. Don't blame me for sticking to a well negotiated deal. Another piece of evidence that I'm the better diplomat...

Savvas smiles calmly.

At the moment, mylady, the royal treasure is empty. Land is a first step to acquire money. The Caesar set the first step. I will do the best I can to make the second step: building infrastructure which I will fund with the money generated from sacking.

Long term mylady, long term as in "further than one term of Megas". The Caesar had a long term vision in mind during his term as Megas, but not everybody seems to understand it...

And if the Order doesn't want to wage war with the Knight's Templar, by all means, let them say so. I was under the impression that the small Order of the Knight's Templar was a huge nuisance for their efforts in the Levant, but if they don't mind their presence, than they should say so.

If the Order refuses to sack a settlement, than there's nothing I can legally do about it, since the Edict I proposed didn't pass. If two Houses should have their armies replenished and there's just enough money to help one, than I will take my decision in good conscience, after I verified the situation at hand and the circumstances in which the respective Houses find themselves in.

ULC

08-19-2008, 11:00

Lady Veronica smiles back at Savvas.

"Of course land is the first step to acquire money, what I am asking is quite plain: how is it that with all the new land we have under our control, that we do not have any money at all? Do not say it is because of the armies, because we have fewer men now then we did when Markianos was Megas, and less land as well."

Veronica seems perplexed at Savvas statement about the Caesar though. "Savvas, do explain how what I said had any relation to the Caesar at all? I was talking about you. I was talking about how Italian invasions are in your future...and yet you seem to want to avoid the discussion on how you would react to that, in the future, in fact, past more then "one megas term". Unless you know for a fact that the Venetians and Normans will only invade this term and never after.

"What exactly, Savvas, am I alluding to? My husband has nothing to hide, and I know the Grandmaster has nothing to hide, so I take it you'd rather refer to an imaginary "deal"?

rossahh

08-19-2008, 11:02

Sorry to interject myself in your, er...discussion, but when will the re-vote for the next Megas take place? I must return to Inconium soon.

Privateerkev

08-19-2008, 15:31

Makedonios chuckles.

It seems Comes Savvas was "against the sacking of Antioch before he was for it."

You do flip-flop a lot don't you? Anything to fit the situation huh?

Since Lady Veronica has made very good points and rebuttals, I won't go into those Savvas.

But I will say that I am amused that you ask us all to suffer criminal neglect in silence. The Caesar is guilty of criminal neglect and I have proven it.

Let us break down these two words. The Caesar is a criminal because he broke the rules. He funded prioritized buildings before building a legally mandated army. I have the documentation (OOC: and the save game file) to prove it. There is no denying it. And, it is actually against the rules to break the rules. So you can't justify it. The Caesar treated us by neglect by his own admission. He proudly proclaimed that he would starve those he deemed "disloyal."

So, since the Caesar broke the law to neglect us, that makes him guilty of criminal neglect. Therefore, when I say that, it is not an "insult" or "slander" but only the truth.

Since you have long said that rules are basically meant to be broken, I fear you will only give us more of the same. Savvas is simply running for Caesar Ioannis's second term. (OOC: Got to love current US politics for giving me these frameworks. :2thumbsup:)

I fear that if Savvas wins, that at some point, he too will break the rules.

As for having us suffer in silence, you have now showed us why you are nothing more than a Comes. Because you do not understand responsibility to something greater than yourself. When you have thousands of citizens, hundreds of soldiers, and a half-dozen men under your care, you are responsible for them. The Caesar's criminal neglect put these people at risk. We had to fight two Jihad armies using two understregth poorly equipped armies because the Caesar criminally neglected us.

Your contempt for the law leaves me to believe you are quite unfit to be Megas.

As for this "deal" you keep spouting about, it stunk. Your a horrible diplomat Savvas because you lie so much. You asked me to help you rig an election so you could look good to the Caesar. And I have the letter from you to prove it. Rigging elections is for dirty Germans, not noble Byzantines. (OOC: :laugh4:)

Kagemusha

08-19-2008, 15:36

" Hypothetical Criminal neglect is nothing compared your men openly accusing the Caesar being a murderer, that is a grave insult and treacherous lies and you Makedonias are accountable for your men and what they say. Dont you understand how serious accusation is to accuse the heir of Roman empire as a murderer?"

Privateerkev

08-19-2008, 15:40

Kagemusha

08-19-2008, 15:47

"And exactly how serious is to accuse the heir of Roman empire of being murderer without any proof? People make mistakes and it is relatively easy to make one in a financial crisis, like one which was over the empire during Caesars reign as Megas. But that is nothing compared to accusing a member of royal household and heir to the throne from being a murderer, without any proof."

Privateerkev

08-19-2008, 15:51

We're going in circles...

The Caesar didn't make a "financial error." He neglected us, by his own admission, and broke the law to do it. Don't confuse one thing with another.

As for what Vissa said, take it up with the Emperor if you don't like what was said. I have spoken with him multiple times. But I refuse to take more action at this time since he techincally hasn't broken any rules. From his point of view, the Caesar is a murderer. You can disagree with him, but you have to admit that he believes it.

Therefore, any further action against Vissas will have to be instituted by the Emperor himself. If you do not like how the Emperor is handling the situation, I suggest you bring it up with him.

Kagemusha

08-19-2008, 16:11

"And you call yourself a chivalrous man. Braking some letter of law, which did not even result into anything serious is such a huge crime, while your underlings run around insulting people and spreading lies. Calling people murderers is not matter of opinion. If one holds such opinions without any evidence what so ever, one should be intelligent enough and have some manners and should not go running around spreading lies. In my personal opinion Basileus is far too lenient towards your underling and towards you, who should be able to control your own men, but maybe this is just another proof that you are you something very different then you act. Chivalrous servants of God should act bit different then you do. It seems that your order is just a lawyer masked as monk warrior, leading rabble that act like a street crowd."

Privateerkev

08-19-2008, 16:16

You keep saying "underlings" in the plural. While many in here have had choice words for the Caesar, only Vissa is my vassal. The rest I have no influence over. You'll have to talk to their lords or the Emperor.

And I disagree that the Caesar's criminal neglect "did not even result into anything serious is such a huge crime."

His neglect put the city of Antioch at risk because we were ill-prepared to deal with the enemy. And it put Constantinople itself at risk because we were ill-prepared to deal with the Jihad. So, the Caesar put tens of thousands of Imperial citizens at risk for petty politics.

I would call that a "huge crime." Which is why I asked, repeatedly, for the man to be impeached from the office of Megas.

Andres

08-19-2008, 16:53

Exactly what part of the Caesar's criminal neglect is "hypothetical?"

He really did neglect the Order. And he really did break the law to do it. I fail to see what part is "hypothetical." My men are really dead because the Caesar really did withhold reinforcements by really breaking the law.

Oh, here I was, thinking it were the Egyptians who killed your men...

Silly me, it was the Caesar disguised as a Sultan...

And since you killed the sultan, our Caesar is a zombie?

Well, well, what fascinating developpements.

Privateerkev

08-19-2008, 17:18

The Caesar starved my armies of troops when the enemy was coming. Sarcasm and strawmen will get you nowhere.

*edit*

OOC: Fine with me. :D

Andres

08-19-2008, 17:41

The Caesar starved my armies of troops when the enemy was coming. Sarcasm and strawmen will get you nowhere.

And you are a Comes until the session is over. How can you expect to be Megas if you can't read the rules?

OOC: I'll edit out the comment about my rank, maybe you can do so as well, until TC made a decision?

OverKnight

08-19-2008, 17:50

The Basileus reenters the Magnaura. Oddly, his shoes are a bit dirty.

Balance has been a recurring theme presented in this Session. Yet there seems little of it to be found among accussations and wordplay.

We must find a way to go forward. To keep what we have gained intact. To make sure we do not repeat the mistakes of the past.

Aleksios pauses, he looks very tired.

It is clear that Makedonios Ksanthopoulos was the selection of the majority of Senators, if not the most powerful. Now it appears we also have some unorthodox manuevering of oaths as well in order to influence the second round of voting, which I'm not sure is legal in this situation.

With all this in mind, I intend to change my vote. I endorse Makedonios Ksanthopoulos for Megas Logothetes. The Empire would be best served by a Megas who has the support of the majority of the Senate behind him.

I mean this as no insult to Senator ek Militou. His repulsion of the Egyptian invasion was masterful, and I value his service to the Empire.

I hope the Grandmaster can live up to his rhetoric.

Kagemusha

08-19-2008, 17:56

Kantakouzinos mutters to himself with a voice others cant hear.

"Now we will see what the Grandmaster really is."

He sips the rest of his wine with one swallow and raises his voice.

"Congratulations Grandmaster!"

Ioannis looks at the last rays of light shining through a large window of the Senate and building and then leaves the senate, without waiting for an answer.

Motep

08-19-2008, 21:19

Andronikos looks around, unsure as of what to do. he had many messages strewed about his person, all giving conflicting advice. Sighing, he stood.

Though I may not agree with his methodes, The Caesar is my brother, and I will support him with my life. That does not mean that I will support those he supports, or condone his selfish actions. And I wholeheartedly agree with the Basileus, we must successfully consolidate the holds we currently have before we do anything too drastic. Hold what we have, overcome our current enemies, and stop our useless babbling about past matters. What is done is done.

Sitting back down, Andronikos busied himself with organising the papers he had disturbed by standing.

OverKnight

08-20-2008, 04:57

The Protoasecretes dozes in a corner of the chamber, blissfully unaware that he should have opened up voting hours ago. A timid looking aide tries to wake him, but the old man groggily brains him with his staff of office and falls back asleep. Whimpering, the aide makes his way to the Basileus and whispers something. Aleksios rolls his eyes but speaks:

Very well, I will close debate. Voting may now commence on the second round of the Election for Megas Logothetes (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=106909).

The polls will be open for 48 hours.

Andres

08-20-2008, 09:52

Andres

08-20-2008, 10:02

Savvas re-enters the Magnaura, and speaks, his voice trembling with anger and rage.

Years, no, not years, decades of loyal service. Decades! My whole life!

I have always (Savvas screams the word) defended you and I have always defended the actions of your son! Out of loyalty and out of love for the Royal family.

And what do I get in return from you, Basileus? Disrespect. Yes, my emperor, I feel disrespected! I will remain loyal to the Royal family, as I have always been, but I will never forget the insult and the ungratefullness of Emperor Aleskios Komnenos.

I am utterly disgusted!

OverKnight

08-20-2008, 10:26

The Basileus sits stone faced through Savvas's tirade and then responds:

It is unfortunate that you feel disrespected, that was not my intent.

Andres

08-20-2008, 10:34

The Basileus sits stone faced through Savvas's tirade and then responds:

It is unfortunate that you feel disrespected, that was not my intent.

Not your intent? That's all you have to say?

Well, thank you mylord. It was a pleasure serving you for many, many years and it seems like it will be even more pleasant to continue my loyal service.

Savvas shakes his head and continues with a soft voice, filled with anger and rage.

You are giving your empire in the hands of a man who despises your son and who lets his vasals insult the Caesar without consequences!

You give the inheritance of your own son in the hands of his greatest enemy, a religious nutjob who lives in an ivory tower and has no feeling whatsoever with reality.

Why don't you just adopot Makedonios and make him your heir?

Bah!

With all due respect, but your vote for Makedonios is foolish, my emperor.

By making Makedonios the next Megas you make the biggest mistake in your live.

ULC

08-20-2008, 10:55

A booming voice is heard from the rear if the Magnaura. A man in red and white, with long black hair tied back, a scar across his left eye, and a piercing gaze of sky blue steps forward.

"Foolish? IN what way Savvas? Foolish is the man who would insult the Basileus without knowing half of what goes on. You think the Basileus took such a decision lightly? Were is your loyalty? Does it evaporate when you don't get what you want? Yet another reason Makedonios makes a better Megas then you."

The man walks further into the light, his voice strong, demanding the attention of everyone in the Magnaura.

"But I think I err here, now is not the time to hurl petty insults. Now is not the time to let personal ambition get in the way of what is right, what is good, and what must be done in the name of the Empire. I know none of you would see what we have all strived for, all built, what all of you put your lives, work, time, effort, blood, sweat and tears into, but the Empire will burn just as surely through neglect, incompetence, short-sightedness, and simple ignorance."

"I can promise you this, things are coming to a head. We are facing a crisis, but not one that many of you seem eager to acknowledge. Civil war is upon us all, whether we like it or not, and we will either take the steps to prevent it, or be consumed by our own egos. Even now, many of you are being manipulated into a course of actions that will rend the Empire a sunder, with you completely ignorant of your part until it is to late and you weep as you have lost everything."

"We must work together, here and now." The man looks over at Aleksios. "I am sorry for forcing our hand so early, but I have lost one of my contacts, and I fear I am next. Better that I speak now, then be silenced so the world may burn."

Andres

08-20-2008, 11:05

Savvas looks at the perpetrator.

What's this? Trying to influence the Emperor by making him fear things that are not there?

Civil war?

Ha!

There won't be no civil war if the Houses don't grow too powerful and if they all stay more or less equally powerful, now would there?

Can't you all see, you bunch of blind morons?

The Caesar was busy preventing civil war! As long as the Houses don't grow too powerful, there won't be no civil war. At best there will be some petty House with a small army that will be crushed soon enough by the imperial forces!

Now you have given the Empire in the hands of the Order, which has close bounds with another powerful House, the House of Asteri.

Civil war? You are talking about civil war?

By giving so much power into the hands of the adversary of the heir of the Throne, you will indeed get civil war.

Take your petty conspiracy theories out of here, you raging fool.

You are all just too blind to see that the Caesar had a vision. He didn't make the Empire instable during his last term. No, he ensured that the royal family will stay strong and that alone will bring balance.

By making the Grandmaster Megas, you destroyed all he has worked for.

Conspiracy theorists and religious nutjobs running the Empire... Bah.

OOC: since I used the word "morons", I'll add the obligatory :clown: to ensure you that it was meant IC. I still love you all ~:cheers: