The Magnaura

[TinCow]

OOC: The period for debate and legislation will be four days in length, and will end at 8am on Sunday, July 20th. This will be followed by 2 days of voting, which will end at 8am on Tuesday, July 22nd. In order to participate in the Crusade, you must send me a PM by the end of the voting period.

I will be out of town from Sunday, July 20th through Sunday, July 27th. During this time, I will have access to the internet and will continue to monitor and control the game, though my response time will be a bit slower. In addition, the nature of the Crusade Event means that I will need to edit the game via the console at the end of every turn. Unfortunately, my laptop cannot handle M2TW. As such, OverKnight will be making the changes for me for however many turns elapse while I am gone. Please accept my apologies if the game moves a bit slower during this coming week.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Efstathios looks around and seeing that no one wishes to take a word he says something to his assistant and leaves from the Magnaura.

[Askthepizzaguy]

A letter arrives from the absent Efstratios, and is read by the junior senator from the Durazzo province.

Senators of the Roman Empire;

I have long supported and endorsed the cause of our people, our Emperor, and our way of life. I have been fighting in wars since before many of you were of age. None more staunchly supports the cause of the Roman people and our great civilization.

I also endorse freeing our people from the oppression of the Catholic occupiers in southern Italy, and regaining our former territories in Anatolia and the Levant, and perhaps even making Aegyptus a Roman province once again. I support the idea that when we make these lands ours, which are rightfully ours to begin with, we should begin re-teaching the ways of the one true Christ again. However, I have never, and will never condone wars based upon religion. I do not support the idea of a Christian crusade, no more than I support the idea of a Muslim Jihad.

What would the Almighty have to say about taking the Word of GOD and perverting it to endorse wars of racism, xenophobia, and genocide? Forced conversion of the "infidels" against their will? It is one thing to reclaim the rightful lands of a nation from invaders, it is one thing to invade a belligerent power and claim their lands as a prize of war... it is quite another to declare war on an entire race of people, and declare an entire religion to be our enemy.

I say this is both foolish from a tactical standpoint, sending our bravest off to die in Egypt, but also from a strategic standpoint. Are we to abandon our northern, eastern, and western borders in favor of this damnfool crusade??? Just because a man in a robe says it's correct?

I am a religious man. I have read my Bible many, many times. Never, not once, in the Bible does Jesus Christ, our savior, condone the act of aggression. The act of murder, that is. Only in self defense should we ever raise our swords. The Patriarch of the Roman Empire has LOST HIS SENSES to declare war on an entire people. Even when persecuted by the ancient ones of the former Roman Empire, before his teachings cleansed it, our Lord and Savior did not rise up and call for a holy war against his oppressors. In fact, I do believe our Lord never once advocated war at all.

I would be a hypocrite not to point out that I am as guilty as all of you... for I have indeed called for wars. However, in every case, it was for the defense of the realm, against an invader, against an occupying power. Never once did I call for the destruction of an innocent people, or an entire religion. I never once called for a holy war.

We will have blood on our hands, gentlemen. Blood of the innocent, blood of those who have not wronged us, blood stains we cannot wash away. How are we followers of Christ then?

The Patriarch of the Roman Empire... he has made a strong case for the removal of a madman, the Caliph. This, indeed, perhaps we should do. But to call a crusade against those who follow Mohammed... that is to multiply our enemies a thousandfold AND butcher the innocent in the process.

To the Patriarch, I say this:

I do not question your decisions lighty, as the sole leader of an entire faith, you command great respect and power. However, I believe you have forsaken the message of the faith you pretend to follow. Do you seriously, and honestly believe that Jesus Christ, of Nazareth, Son of God Almighty, Heir to Heaven and the defender of your immortal soul, would EVER condone the call to arms you have just made against a religion? To start a Holy War? Does not the Bible condemn those who preach Christ's message, yet call for war in his name? When EVER did Jesus ask for a war in his name? When ever did he call anyone to arms?

Blood spilled in Christ's name is the same as spitting on the cross or setting it ablaze. It is an affront to everything our lord stood for. You should be ashamed, Nicholas the Third, pretender to the Throne of God. You should discard those holy robes, and forsake your religion, for if you truly wish to declare a holy war against the followers of Islam, then you have no business being a Christian.

You commit the same sin as the other impostor on the throne of the Catholic Church, whom we have condemned for his belligerent and hypocritical ways, his imperialism and his false piety and false modesty. He is a power-mad, bloodthirsty traitor of Christianity itself, and now, so are you.

I renounce you as my spiritual master, and declare your ways and your followers to be betrayers of Christ. You hypocrite, you snake wrapped in the clothes of a holy man, you impostor, you Judas! May God have mercy on your soul!!!

I am also renouncing my position as a Senator of the Roman Empire. I cannot continue to act in service of our people as a policy-maker, because I strongly object to this course of action made by those who would follow this religious pretender into the gaping mouth of hell. I will not damn myself and my people and my Emperor to hell because some madman has decided to follow in the terrible tradition of our archenemy the Pope, and declare an unholy war.

It may come to pass that I will also be forced to step down as the recently-appointed ruler of the Order of the Silver Hawks, but I have not resigned yet. For now, I will also be continuing to fight for my house and my Emperor to defend against the Catholic invaders and the rebel scum who wish to usurp our laws and our freedoms, and I will continue to fight until such time as my services to the Empire are no longer required.

I am no traitor to the empire, this foolish "Patriarch" is. However, I am certain there will be those who brand me, fallaciously, as the traitor. It is written in the Bible that those who would stand up against tyranny and injustice will be hunted down and despised for it. I am prepared to accept the consequences of this action. I will not apologize.

To my friends, I urge you:

Do not abandon our homes and our borders to follow this religious monster into acts of unspeakable evil. If the Caliph should be removed from power, that is acceptible. I suggest we send a force of troops down there to destroy him. But to plunge completely into a holy war will incense ALL Muslims against us. This I do not fear, but I call it UNNECESSARY! There is no need for MORE innocent blood to be shed.

Do not abandon our people to the Catholic invaders, nor forsake our Turkish front, nor allow the rebels to run rampant in the North. While this Caliph deserves justice, we will likely destroy ourselves delivering that justice, unless we do it with a clear mind and a clean moral conscience. Holy War is not the answer, it never is.

Do not abandon our Christian ideals simply because our Christian leader asks you to do so. Condemn me, if you must... but listen to what I have said, and consider it. Do not blindly follow madmen, for they are the reason why the first Roman empire fell and splintered apart. Religious madmen will be the death of us all, Senators. Mark my words, this Crusade business will destroy what we have created in our lifetimes, before our grandchildren can grow old to enjoy it. This I prophesize, this I forsee.

Lord Efstratios Monomachos,
Ex-Senator and loyalist to both the Roman Emperor, and the One True Christ.

[Privateerkev]

Makedonios had a stern look on his face through the whole speech.

It is a pity that Efstratios didn't have the courage to say these things in person.

Now that tirade is over with, lets get back to business.

[deguerra]

Very dramatic, Efstratios. As the Grandmaster correctly points out it is a shame he cannot be here to hear our replies. Most importantly, I would like to know just how coming to the aid of Egyptian Christians can be considered a war against an entire religion. We have not declared war on all Muslims, the Caliph was the one who declared war on all Christians.

In any case given the heat which this debate is generating, I feel I should rectify a few points.

First. I agree with the Basileos that the foreign and military policy of the Empire should not and never be up to men of the clergy, insofar as they are not part of a religious Order and Strators of the Empire. Anything else is taking the authority of this very body and trampling all over it.

That said, second, I have no real qualms with this Crusade. The cause, to save the lives of Egyptian Christians, is as just as we ever hope to fight for. Nor need it be, like has been suggested a weakening of the frontiers. I don't intend to remove myself or my army from the East and I have no doubt the Basileos will remain on his vigilant watch in the West. I just do not understand why a proposal for a Crusade could not have been brought before this Senate like any other proposal and instead attempted to circumvent the laws of the Empire.

Third, I wholeheartedly agree with the Grandmasters renewal of the Extermination Edict. We've all agreed to it before, I do not honestly know why it is causing such a stir now. Sacking is allowed when settlements are not Orthodox, extermination is avoided. These are people we are talking about for Christ's sake!

Fourth, I agree with my brother's CA, but prefer the Grandmasters rewriting thereof, not only because it limits the powers of these offices a little, but also because in my selfish ways I do not see why family members should be excluded from public office. If anyone can present to me a resounding argument why they should, I will drop the matter, although I still think the added influence should be limited by rank. Obviously this is easier to say when you are high up in the chain than when you are further down.

[Zim]

Kosmas waits for both the uproar caused by Eftrafios' message to die down and the reasoned responses to it from his fellow senators to be completed, then stands and speaks.

Earlier when the candidates for Megas were debating, talk quickly turned to the planned crusade. As interested in the subject as I am, it seems that the crusade will take care of itself. I wonder if perhaps we could hear more from them on their plans for the empire as a whole over the next term.

[OverKnight]

Aleksios speaks.

Yes Kosmas speaks wisely, let us not lose sight of the election. The next Megas will have much to do.

One question that I have is this: If the reconquest of Anatolia goes well, how far would each candidate go against the Turks? Are we going to reclaim our former lands, or are we going to destroy the Sultanate completely? Will peace become an option at some point, or will it be all out war?

[Ignoramus]

After hearing his father's words, Ioannis rises to respond.

Your highness, noble senators, if the reconquest of Anatolia preceded well, I would attempt to negotiate a truce with the Turks. Rapid expansion would leave us vulnerable to attack from other enemies, and the further we expand from Constantinople, the weaker our authority becomes. What is more, beyond our former lands, there almost none of the true faith. Without a missionary expedition, we would never be able to suppress revolt.

Ioannis resumes his seat.

[Ramses II CP]

Vissarionas ek Lesvou listens carefully to the speech of Efstratios as read in the Senate, and withdraws a bound black bible from his case. Reading through the book while he waits Vissa is clearly struck by the relevance of a passage, and rises to read, speaking quietly but firmly to start, and gradually rising in volume as he warms to the subject.

Senators we have heard a noble speech from the self described ex-Senator Efstratios, and while it seems of little consequence to me what a man may say when he has not the courage to speak it himself, I do believe that we should have a few words from the good book in support of the Crusade. Since our representative from the Patriarch has been, ahh, uninvited, I will take up the task myself.'

Firstly, as spoken by Jesus himself in Matthew, 10:34,

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth; I came not to send peace, but a sword.

And a few verses later, Matthew, 10:38,

And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me is not worthy of me.

Is this not the very essence of a Crusade? To bring not a peaceful resolution to the proposed slaughter of innocent Christians, but order and justice at the point of a sword? To take up the cross in the name of defending our fellow faithful?

We are commended by Paul to '...be at peace with all men,' but this command is preceded by 'If possible, so far as it depends on you...'

Is this not a clear case where it does not depend on us? The Caliph has set aside men, women, and children, selected by virtue of sharing our faith, for butchery. I cannot imagine standing aside and simply letting this occur. I cannot believe that any man of faith would have it so.

I hope that I have brought some clarity to this matter for those who might find Efstratios' words confusing. I myself found it quite odd that he approves of an assault on Egypt under any guise but a Godly one; I must wonder what his perspective would be on sacking captured cities?

I say if we are to deny the Caliph his vile intention it should be under the banner of Christ first, and Byzantium second. And let any Muslim soldiers who would oppose us tremble in fear at the coming of the armies of the Lord!

Vissarionas finishes his speech with a verbal flourish and the vibrant ring of a true believer sounds in his voice.

:egypt:

[Ignoramus]

Ioannis gets to his feet.

Thank you, Senator Vissarionas, for that wonderful rendition of the Scriptures, highly coloured with the Frankish barbaric ideas of spreading their faith.

Does not Christ tell us to turn the other cheek to our enemies? The Christians in Cairo are martyrs for their faith. Let us not create martyrs for the infidels, lest we be hypocritical in actions.

Ioannis resumes his seat.

[Privateerkev]

Upon the Caesar's words, an incredulous look is painted on Makedonios's face.

What?!?

Martyrs?!?

These people aren't even dead yet!

These people aren't martyrs! They are real people! Alive! For the time being...

As for turning the other cheek, you certainly don't wish us to practice that against the Turks. Oh no! That war is just fine and dandy to you! But with the Fatimids, we should turn the other cheek?

Now I fully support the war with the Turks but we should at least be consistent. If we engage one foe to reclaim land that was ours and spread the Word, then why should we just ignore the other foe when they are on the verge of slaughtering innocent people?

[Ignoramus]

Ioannis quickly stands up again.

Which is why we're launching a Crusade? Because a general overheard a plan to kill Christians? Our causus belli doesn't even exist yet, and we are declaring war? Besides, declaring a Crusade will not prevent a massacre from taking place. On the contrary, those participating in the planned massacre will just be even more zealous in seeking out Christians.

The war against the Turks is political, not religious. We are engaging in a just war to reclaim our lands at a time which is beneficial to the empire.

Innocent people will always be slaughtered in this world. It is a sad thing, indeed, but we cannot avenge every wrong when it is committed. Instead, we should have waited for a time when we would be in a stronger position, and would be able to conduct a purely political war.

Ioannis resumes his seat.

[_Tristan_]

Waiting for the Caesar to finish, Methodios stands and adresses the assembled Senators.

While we discuss the necessity of saving our Christian brethren from the madness of the Fatimid Caliph and free them from his yoke, would it not be also time to discuss the rescue of the good people of Zagreb who had chosen to join the Empire of their own free will, people we were forced to abandon when the pressure of our Catholic "brethren" proved too strong ?

At that time, we had not the manpower to fight victoriously against the vast hordes of rabble assembled by Randolf of Lydham and his accomplices... Today, things are different, our armies are stronger and I think it is now time to capture Lydham and bring him to justice as the instigator of the revolts of 1095. I hope I am wrong but I fear his successes were helped by some inside knowledge of our weaknesses brought by some traitorous Byzantine individual, which I hope will be brought to justice.

Furthermore, some years ago, Strator Kantakouzinos endeavoured to add Iasi to the Empire domain, only to be forced to watch as the Poles were beaten by the brigands that still hold the castle. Iasi should be ours, if only to deny it to our neighbours. We must have as much control of the coast of the Black Sea as we can so that trade along its coast bring us as much riches as possible.

But to avoid revolts such as those of 1095, these provinces if reclaimed should be properly garrisoned.

It is in that spirit that I propose :

Edict 3.3 : Zagreb and Iasi will be added to the Empire. Once captured, they will be properly garrisoned.

[Andres]

As he hears the question of his Basileus, Savvas stands up and bows to the Emperor.

Mylord, if the reconquest of Anatolia goes well, I would continue the war until the Sultanate has been destroyed. In war, we need to take advantage of every opportunity. I would not stop the war against the Seljuks to let them regain strength and to see them backstabbing us on the worst possible moment. In my most humble opinion and with all due respect for your son, our esteemed Caesar, I have to say that stopping a war that you are winning would not be the best move.

And, as I have repeated numerous times before, a succesful war also brings opportunities to rapidly gain lots of florins.

I know that I am starting to sound like a merchant now, but we have to stay realistic. A succesfull Crusade and strengthening our Western and Northern frontiers to deal with Catholic armies en route to Jerusalem (Catholic armies who can become aggressive, as we have seen with the German declaration of war), will need florins. Florins that will at first be provided by the sacking of the Seljuk settlements.

Also, the reconquered settlements will need to be rebuild, which will also cost florins.

During my term, I would try to obtain as much trade rights as possible; every florin left, after funding the reinforcements or strenghtening of our armies, will be spent on economic infrastructure.

I would do that, because I am thinking long-term mylords. An economically unhealthy Empire will lead to bankruptcy which will lead to disasters.

Savvas sits back down.

[pevergreen]

True enough Savvas. Unless a most superior competitor comes forward, you have my vote.

Brushing some imaginary dust from his cloak, Michail leans forward,


At this point, I have not yet reached my decision on whether I will join or not. Though I am now landless, I still feel I and others may be needed to defend our homeland from Catholic invasion.

If enough of our generals remain in Greece, I will gladly join knowing that our heartland will be aptly defended. Until then, I will stay.

As the senator questions, so shall he be responded to! As you may have been able to tell, Efstratios is not too keen on this crusade. I have no aptitude in attacking, but I think I am rather suited to defence. I pledge whatever I can muster to the defence of the Empire from the Catholics! I shall endevour to convince Efstratios to do the same.

If you will excuse me for now, I shall be back shortly, I have some...minor buisness to attend to.

[Ferret]

Has not the Ceasar himself already announced that he is running for office? I find it amusing that a man whose role is to look after the royal family now runs for Megas in opposition to the future emperor.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Efstathios enters the Magnaura and walks to his table. His assistant gives him detailed report over the things that happened while Efstathios was away.

"One thing is certain. You will never get bored in here," he said to himself and smiles..

[Privateerkev]

Makedonios stands up and addresses the Caesar.

So, we need to wait until they are all dead before we act? Should we wait until all of our ancient Holy Sites in the area are destroyed too? Sometimes a good deed is preventing an evil action. The Empire had always planned on eventually reclaiming our rightful lands in Egypt. All that has changed is the timetable has been sped up out of moral and spiritual necessity.

And the war against the Turks is religious as well. It is not just a matter of reclaiming lost lands. It is a matter of spreading our faith. They need to be shown the True Word.

He then turns to Methodios.

I agree with Senetor Methodios. I have always advocated for a strong West, as well as a strong East. I wish to see this edict come to a vote and see what the will of the Senate is in this matter.

I second Edict 3.3.

Then turning to Savvas.

I have to agree with Comes Savvas here. As long as we have the resources to pursue the other necessary fronts, the war against the Turks should be pursued to completion. All I was afraid of when I debated with the Caesar on his Megas planks, was that it would be the only front. I believe that as long as the other fronts are secure and expanding, then the war against the Turks should slowly push them further East until they have no where to go. The Seljuks need to be dismantled as a political entity and their people need to be brought back into the loving embrace of the Empire and shown the Word.

Finally, Makedonios addresses Hypatios.

The Caesar is not entitled to an automatic Megas term until he ascends the throne. Any man may run against him at this time. "The Ceasar may be the son of the Basileus but he is not the Basileus." Do you recognize those words? You should... because they are your own.

[Ramses II CP]

Nodding to the Caesar Vissa rises once more, briefly, to say,

Indeed my Prince if the Egyptians meant merely to slap we of the Orthodox faith I would say that we should turn the other cheek, but instead they mean to butcher us. Jesus does not say to lay down before the sword and pull it into your body yourself. If he had, there would be no more Christians.

I find it very curious that many who clearly have no objection to war will refuse to fight under the banner of God.

:egypt:

[Dafuge]

Waiting his turn Stavrar stands up

I also [b] second edict 3.3 [/i]

[TinCow]

*snore*

*Snore*

*SNORE*

A scribe subtly jabs the Protoasecretes in the head as he walks by, interrupting the horrendous buzz-saw with a chorus of snorts, gasps, and unrecognizable syllables. The old man spends a few moments to ensure that he is breathing again, then blinks widely and looks around the room. Everyone in the Magnaura is staring at him.

"Ah... eh..."

The scribe returns, and hands the Protoasecretes a parchment.

"What's this?" he mutters as he squints at the writing. "Oh, yes!"

He slowly stands, his cane shaking wildly, and a few Senators in the back begin making wagers as to whether he will fall over and in which direction.

"I present the following legislation to the Senate for their approval. They have been proposed by... er..." he looks around the Senate, but doesn't seem to notice whoever it is that he is looking for. "They have been proposed by... me! Yes, that's it!"


Charter Amendment 3.2: The following will be added to the Charter:


1.6 - Game Balancing: The following traits may be removed with the console at any time at the request of any player who's avatar has them: Unwatched by the King, Unleashed Ambition. The following traits may be removed with the console at the request of any player who's avatar has them, if they were gained as the result of movement of 'title' retinues in accordance with Rule 2.3: Title stolen!, Seethes for revenge!.


Charter Amendment 3.3: The title of Section 3 will be changed from Senate to Government. The following rule will be added:


3.9 - University: The following traits may be altered by the Dean and the Scholars, but only to levels which are listed herein. Levels which are omitted from this list cannot be gained or lost through the University:

Trait GoodAdministrator
Level Budding_Bureaucrat
Effect Trading 3
Effect Law 1

Level Skilled_Bureaucrat
Effect Trading 5
Effect Law 2

Level Superb_Administrator
Effect Trading 10
Effect Law 3

;------------------------------------------
Trait BadAdministrator
Level Poor_Administrator
Effect Trading -3

Level Inefficient_Administrator
Effect Trading -5

Level Total_Incompetence
Effect Trading -10

;------------------------------------------
Trait InspiringSpeaker
Level Can_Tell_a_Tale
Effect Law 1

Level Great_Speaker
Effect Law 1

Level Inspirational_Speaker
Effect Law 2

;------------------------------------------
Trait BoringSpeaker
Level Poor_Speaker
Effect Law -1

Level Awkward_Speaker
Effect Law -1
Effect TroopMorale -1

Level Incredibly_Boring
Effect Law -2
Effect TroopMorale -2
Effect Command -1

;------------------------------------------
Trait AcademyTrained
Level Academy_Trained
Effect Command 1

Level Officer_Training
Effect Command 2

;------------------------------------------
Trait ForcedReligious
Level Conforming
Effect Piety 1

Level Reverant
Effect Piety 2

Level Godfearing
Effect Piety 3
Effect TroopMorale -1

;------------------------------------------
Trait Superstitious
Level Silly_Beliefs
Effect Piety -1

Level Superstitious
Effect Piety -1
Effect TroopMorale -1

Level Slave_to_Superstition
Effect Piety -2
Effect Authority -1
Effect TroopMorale -2

;------------------------------------------
Trait Pragmatic
Level Mostly_Rational
Effect Authority 1

Level No_Nonsense
Effect Authority 2
Effect TroopMorale 1

Level Utterly_Pragmatic
Effect Authority 3
Effect TroopMorale 2

;------------------------------------------
Trait GoodTaxman
Level Good_with_Taxes
Effect TaxCollection 10

Level Thorough_Taxman
Effect TaxCollection 20
Effect Unrest 1

Level Cruelly_Exacting_Taxman
Effect TaxCollection 30
Effect Unrest 2

;------------------------------------------
Trait BadTaxman
Level Poor_with_Taxes
Effect TaxCollection -5

Level Sloppy_Taxman
Effect TaxCollection -10

Level Tax_Farmer
Effect TaxCollection -15

;------------------------------------------
Trait Scout
Level Adopts_Scouting
Effect LineOfSight 1

Level Adept_Scout
Effect LineOfSight 2

Level Reconnaissance_Expert
Effect LineOfSight 3

;------------------------------------------
Trait GoodFarmer
Level Farming_Knowledge
Effect Farming 1

Level Rural_Expert
Effect Farming 2

Level Agriculturalist
Effect Farming 3

;------------------------------------------
Trait GoodMiner
Level Mining_Knowledge
Effect Mining 10

Level Mining_Expert
Effect Mining 20

Level Geologist
Effect Mining 30

;------------------------------------------
Trait GoodEngineer
Level Admires_Technology
Effect SiegeEngineering 20

Level Mechanically_Minded
Effect SiegeAttack 1
Effect SiegeEngineering 40

Level Engineer
Effect SiegeAttack 2
Effect SiegeEngineering 60

;------------------------------------------
Trait BadEngineer
Level Questions_Technology
Effect SiegeAttack -1

Level Befuddled_by_Machines
Effect SiegeAttack -2

Level Distrusts_Evil_Machinery!
Effect SiegeAttack -3

;------------------------------------------
Trait GoodTrader
Level Understands_Trade
Effect Trading 10

Level Trader
Effect Trading 20

Level Master_Trader
Effect Trading 30

;------------------------------------------
Trait BadTrader
Level Fiscally_Challenged
Effect Trading -10

Level Incompetent_Trader
Effect Trading -20

Level Trading_Liability
Effect Trading -30

;------------------------------------------
Trait Just
Level A_Sense_of_Justice
Effect Chivalry 1
Effect Law 1

Level Just
Effect Chivalry 2
Effect Law 2

Level Serves_Justice
Effect Chivalry 3
Effect Law 3

;------------------------------------------
Trait Unjust
Level Swift_to_Judge
Effect Unrest 1

Level Lacks_Justice
Effect Chivalry -1
Effect Unrest 2

Level Unjust
Effect Chivalry -3
Effect Unrest 3

;------------------------------------------
Trait HarshJustice
Level Hard_Justice
Effect Unrest 1
Effect Law 2

Level Harsh_Justice
Effect Unrest 2
Effect Law 4

Level Severe_Justice
Effect Chivalry -1
Effect Unrest 3
Effect Law 6

;------------------------------------------
Trait LenientJustice
Level Soft_Judge
Effect Chivalry 1
Effect Law -1

Level Merciful_Judge
Effect Chivalry 2
Effect Law -2

Level Kind_Judge
Effect Chivalry 1
Effect Law -3

;------------------------------------------
Trait HarshRuler
Level Iron_Fisted
Effect Chivalry -1
Effect Law 1

Level Harsh_Ruler
Effect Chivalry -2
Effect PersonalSecurity -1
Effect Squalor 1
Effect Law 2

Level Cruel_Ruler
Effect Chivalry -3
Effect PersonalSecurity -2
Effect Squalor 2
Effect Law 3

;------------------------------------------
Trait KindRuler

Level Reasonable_Ruler
Effect Chivalry 1
Effect Squalor -1

Level Kind_Ruler
Effect Chivalry 2
Effect Squalor -2

Level Benevolent_Ruler
Effect Chivalry 3
Effect Squalor -3

;------------------------------------------
Trait GoodBuilder
Level Active_Builder
Effect Construction 5
Effect Squalor -1

Level Urban_Planner
Effect Construction 10
Effect Squalor -2

Level Great_Builder
Effect Construction 15
Effect Squalor -3

;------------------------------------------
Trait BadBuilder
Level Not_Constructive
Effect Construction -5
Effect Squalor 1

Level Sloppy_Builder
Effect Construction -10
Effect Squalor 2

Level Abhors_Construction
Effect Construction -15
Effect Squalor 3

;------------------------------------------
Trait Authoritarian

Level Firm_Ruler
Effect Unrest 1
Effect Law 2

Level Strict_Ruler
Effect Authority 1
Effect Unrest 2
Effect Law 4

Level Total_Authoritarian
Effect Authority 2
Effect Unrest 3
Effect Law 6

;------------------------------------------
Trait NonAuthoritarian
Level Fair_Ruler
Effect Unrest -2
Effect Law -1

Level Understanding_Ruler
Effect Authority -1
Effect Unrest -4
Effect Law -2

Level Liberal_Leader
Effect Authority -2
Effect Unrest -6
Effect Law -3

;------------------------------------------
Trait Cultured

Level Cultured
Effect LocalPopularity 1

Level Very_Cultured
Effect Authority 1
Effect LocalPopularity 2

;------------------------------------------
Trait Ignorance

Level Ignorant
Effect Authority -1
Effect Trading -2
Effect TaxCollection -2

Level Sadly_Ignorant
Effect Authority -1
Effect Trading -5
Effect TaxCollection -5

Level Blissfully_Ignorant
Effect Authority -2
Effect Trading -10
Effect TaxCollection -10

;------------------------------------------
Trait Clergy_Edu

Level Novice
Effect Piety 1

Level Ordination
Effect Piety 2
Effect Loyalty -1
Effect TroopMorale 1
Effect Law 1

;------------------------------------------
Trait Castle_Edu

Level Squire
Effect MovementPoints 10

Level Knighted
Effect Command 1
Effect Loyalty 1
Effect MovementPoints 10
Effect Chivalry 1

;------------------------------------------
Trait Cap_Edu

Level Paige
Effect Law 1

Level Enobled
Effect Law 2
Effect Authority 1
Effect TaxCollection 5

;------------------------------------------
Trait RhetoricSkill

Level Well_Spoken
Effect Authority 1

;------------------------------------------
Trait StrategicSkill

Level Promising_Strategist
Effect Command 1

;------------------------------------------
Trait TacticalSkill

Level Promising_Tactician
Effect Ambush 2
Effect LineOfSight 1

;------------------------------------------
Trait MathematicsSkill

Level Talent_with_Numbers
Effect SiegeEngineering 10
Effect Trading 5

;------------------------------------------
Trait PoliticsSkill

Level Political_Promise
Effect Authority 1

;------------------------------------------
Trait LogisticalSkill

Level Understands_Logistics
Effect TroopMorale 1
Effect MovementPoints 1

;------------------------------------------
Trait HorseRacer

Level Good_Racer
Effect MovementPoints 1


The following ranks will be added to the Charter:


Dean:
Requirements: Must have been appointed by the Basileus
Powers:
(1) This rank is always held at the same time as other feudal ranks.
(2) During normal Senate sessions, can bestow on or remove from any Senator the rank of Scholar, as long as there are never more than 5 Scholars at any one time.
(3) Twice per full Megas term, can alter or add any trait listed in Rule 3.9 to his own avatar. Traits that are added must be given at the lowest level. Traits that are altered can only move one level at a time.

Scholar:
Requirements: Must have been appointed by the Dean
Powers:
(1) This rank is always held at the same time as other feudal ranks.
(2) Once per full Megas term, can alter or add any trait listed in Rule 3.9 to his own avatar. Traits that are added must be given at the lowest level. Traits that are altered can only move one level at a time.

The following power will be added to the Basileus:

(18) During normal Senate sessions, can bestow on or remove from any Senator the rank of Dean, as long as there is never more than 1 Dean at any one time.

OOC: Note that the Basileus' Penalty #1 prevents the Basileus from being either the Dean or a Scholar. I intentionally left this as it is. The Basileus becomes massively powerful with high authority, and there are multiple authority boosting traits in the University list. If the Basileus is allowed to gain traits in the University, we will always have an ultra-powerful Basileus. In order to benefit from the University, he must take advantage of it before he ascends to the throne.

[Privateerkev]

I second both CA 3.2 and CA 3.3.

[Dafuge]

I also second both CA 3.2 and CA 3.3.

[_Tristan_]

I second CA 3.2 and 3.3

[_Tristan_]

Methodios casts an odd look at Stavrar ek Amarinthou then gives him a smile.

[Dafuge]

I would ask why the contrast of looks and specifacally aimed at me?

[_Tristan_]

Simply because we spoke at the exact same time...

[Privateerkev]

Makedonios chuckles lightly.

I think it is because you and Senator Methodios said the exact same thing at the exact same time.

OOC: Both of your timestamps are identical. :laugh4:

[Privateerkev]

Makedonios just realized that him and Methodios just did almost the same thing. He stays quiet for a moment so he doesn't say the same thing at the same time as someone else but is still amused.

[_Tristan_]

Methodios chuckles, looking at Makedonios.

[Dafuge]

Quite amusing I agree, if only all Senators woukld agree at the same time.

[Privateerkev]

I think the Magnaura could use random moments of levity to balance out the seriousness of what is discussed here.

[Ferret]

Finally, Makedonios addresses Hypatios.

The Caesar is not entitled to an automatic Megas term until he ascends the throne. Any man may run against him at this time. "The Ceasar may be the son of the Basileus but he is not the Basileus." Do you recognize those words? You should... because they are your own.

I did not say anything about him bypassing an election. After reading the Tagamata charter I came under the impression that Savvas' job was to care for the Royal family, it merely amuses me that he is now in opposition to the Caesar, and risks reducing his power and reputation if Savvas is successful. I cannot see how this fulfills his role.

[Andres]

I did not say anything about him bypassing an election. After reading the Tagamata charter I came under the impression that Savvas' job was to care for the Royal family, it merely amuses me that he is now in opposition to the Caesar, and risks reducing his power and reputation if Savvas is successful. I cannot see how this fulfills his role.

You cannot see it? Do you need some more light, dear Senator?

Savvas stands up, walks to Hypatios, and places a candle in front of him. Savvas walks back to his seat, and sits down, an amused look on his face.

[AussieGiant]

Observing proceedings from the back of the chamber, Apionnas can only shake his head ruefully at some of the moments that have passed recently.

[ULC]

Iakovos is overjoyed at the news that the legislation for the University he has worked so hard to construct over the past years has finally come to the table.

I second CA 3.2 and CA 3.3 as well.

[Privateerkev]

This might be a minor point but not much else is being talked about here at the moment. Exactly where is the University going to be? I assume it will be in Constantinople, which would make sense since it is essentially an Imperial institution.

[ULC]

Iakovos ponders for a moment before standing back up.

"We have a University already constructed in Antioch thanks to the Princess Anna's patronage, but you have a good point Grandmaster. I would also like to mention that I would prefer it that the Houses were able to choose among themselves in a fashion as to whom the Dean should be."

[Privateerkev]

I thought that was the school for orphans?

And I would think Antioch would be too far for some students to travel. Constantinople is in a central location.

As for your committee idea to pick a dean, it is interesting but I'm afraid of it being unwieldy. Plus, that means the unaligned Senators would have no voice at the table. Seems a bit unfair.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Efstathios raises from his seat..

I support the current University concept. It might not be the best one but it is better than nothing. If we can learn to be a better governors then what harm can it do?

Also I really think that the University should be in our capital and not in some God forsaken land near our border..

Realizes something, he stutters..

I don't mean that.. you know .. that Antioch is one of those places.. I mean.. I meant..

He takes quickly his seat and starts working with his documents on the table trying to forget this whole speech he just had.

[Privateerkev]

Makedonios shrugs.

I totally agree. Constantinople seems like the perfect place for a few reasons.

[ULC]

Iakovos seems to turn slightly red at Efstathios remark about Antioch being "God forsaken".

I am sure Senator Efstathios you meant absolutely nothing by it. We all know Antioch's rich history of scholarship and culture. I think few would ever think of it as a backwater province of the Empire...

Iakovos sits down rather brusquely and begins writing furiously.

[TinCow]

OOC:

Just got this PM:

This may or may not have been intentional, but you do realize you have made the Mighty Emperor factory through the University? The fact that the Emperor can simply appoint someone to the Dean, whomever he likes, without any form of restriction, means he would simply select the Caesar, and thus cut off anyone from every really being Dean. In essence, I think the way it is proposed now, I will vote against it. I really want this, and I don't mind the Basileus picking, but I want at least a limitation on how he picks, or how many terms a single person can serve...

YLC is spot on. The biggest danger with the University is the authority trait. If this isn't handled properly, we will have a crazy powerful Basileus every single time. I thought I was avoiding this by preventing the Basileus from being Dean or a Scholar, but he is completely right that I have missed the problem with the Caesar. If the Caesar is appointed Dean even twice, we have pretty much guaranteed a maxed out authority Basileus. There are so many traits that add authority and it's almost guaranteed that the Casear can gain +1 authority for every trait he can alter. That's 2 per term as Dean and 1 per term as a Scholar. This is very unbalanced. There are several different ways to fix this, but I don't want to pick the solution myself. I am therefore going to propose the following additional CAs to fix the problem. Whichever receives the most votes will be used.

The following Charter Amendments are all mutually exclusive. All that receive the necessary seconds will be put to the vote. However, if more than one passes, only the one that receives the most votes will be enacted.

Charter Amendment 3.4: If Charter Amendment 3.3 passes, the following penalty will be added to the Caesar: (1) Cannot hold the ranks of Dean or Scholar.

This solution simply bars the Caesar from the University altogether.

Charter Amendment 3.5: If Charter Amendment 3.3 passes, the following penalty will be added to the Caesar: (1) Cannot hold the rank of Dean.

This bars the Caesar from the Dean spot, but still allows him to be a Scholar. This would give the Caesar a chance to alter 1 trait per term if he were chosen as a Scholar, but would prevent him from ever altering 2 in one term. Theoretically, the Caesar can still gain a lot of authority through this, but he would have to be consistently appointed as a Scholar by someone who wasn't himself or the Basileus, and he would have to live for a long time as the Caesar to reap great rewards from it.

Charter Amendment 3.6: If Charter Amendment 3.3 passes, the following penalty will be added to the Caesar: (1) Cannot gain or alter any traits through the University.

This is similar to 3.4, in that it prevents the Caesar from gaining any traits from the University, however it still allows him to be the Dean and thus he still has the option of controlling who becomes Scholars.

Charter Amendment 3.7: If Charter Amendment 3.3 passes, the following penalty will be added to the Caesar: (1) Cannot gain or alter more than 2 traits through the University.

This ignores all positional problems and simply imposes a hardcap on trait alterations.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

I like the CA 3.5
Why?
I just too!!

[Zim]

OOC: I was talking to someone earlier and realized that we have two different main player characters who aren't senators. Thought I propose this to allow them to be deans as well. :yes:

Charter Amendment 3.8: If Charter Amendment 3.3 passes, the word "Senator" will be changed to "player" in Basileus' power (18).

[Askthepizzaguy]

An open letter is presented to Caesar Ioannis Komnenos' aides, who enter it into the official records of the Senate.

Caesar Ioannis Komnenos,

Your wisdom and courage to question this barbaric and unholy crusade is why I chose to follow the leadership of our great emperor and his royal family so long ago. Were there more men like you in the empire, I would question my decision to leave the Senate, but never question my devotion to you or your father.

It is fitting that you will one day lead our people, and I hope I am still alive to see such a magnificent day. I should note that I hope the reign of your father, our Basileos, will continue until my old age, however.

Those who would pick and choose a few small verses from the Bible out of context could argue any point they wish and claim Jesus himself called such a crusade. No one with any sense would even begin to describe Jesus as a warlike man who was sent here by God to start wars, or even participate in them.

When Jesus claimed he did not come to bring peace, IT WAS BECAUSE HIS MESSAGE OF PEACE WOULD OFFEND THOSE WHO WOULD WISH TO MAKE WAR! It was because his message of piety would offend the faithless! It was because his message of poverty and self-sacrifice would offend the rich and selfish! It was because his ideals would divide men, into those who love peace and those who make war upon the innocent.

Jesus NEVER suggested we should raise arms against those we disagree with.

And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me is not worthy of me.

My dear Senators... taking one's cross is a way of saying "bearing one's burden". Following after Jesus, in the truest sense, would mean renouncing the ways of war and revenge, not raising our swords and sharpening our axes.

Can any of you who support this ridiculous crusade ever picture Jesus carrying a bloody weapon? If so, your minds have been poisoned and perverted by the skewed and irrational views of this Patriarch. Do not blindly follow like sheep, for you WILL be led to the slaughter.

Those who will go to Cairo and remove the Caliph from power, I beg of you only this:

Spare those who are innocent. DO NOT harm those who have not caused us harm. Bring this Caliph, in chains, before our emperor and have him tried for crimes against the Roman people. DO NOT execute him in the name of God or Jesus for crimes against Christianity.

This foul beast may be brought to justice, but it should be a civilized form of that, otherwise we are no better than the barbarians we wish to fight. Don't harm those who do not harm.

Caesar, my loyalty is with you and the Roman people, as always.

Salute, great leader.

Efstratios Monomachos, of the Order of the True Cross

[deguerra]

I'd like to once again state my support, in principle, for CA 3.1

The two offices of Lord High Chancellor and Lord High Steward, as well as the Privy Seal, can be assigned by the Basileus to any non-family member. Only one of them may be assigned to each general, and each confers a +1 influence in Senate voting. If the Basileus chooses to keep them himself, there is no influence bonus.

But would like to propose CA 3.9

If CA 3.1 passes it will be amended as follows:

The two offices of Lord High Chancellor and Lord High Steward, as well as the Privy Seal, can be assigned by the Basileus to any Senator. Only one of them may be assigned to each general, and each confers a +1 influence in Senate voting if rank permits. If the Basileus chooses to keep them himself, there is no influence bonus

Rule 3.5 is reworded as such: 3.5 – Influence: Each Senator’s voting power is equivalent to his total Influence, as defined by Rule 2.7. No Senator’s Influence may ever be lower than 1. For the purposes of determining Stat Influence, a Senator can gain 1 point of Stat Influence for each of the following conditions that he meets: (a) 5+ ranks of Command (b) 10 ranks of Command (c) 5+ ranks of Chivalry or Dread (d) 10 ranks of Chivalry or Dread (e) 10 ranks of Loyalty (f) 8+ ranks of Piety (g) 20+ total stat points (h) 30+ total stat points (i) 40 total stat points (j) Senator’s name is modified by a trait title that bestows more negative than positive stat points (i.e. the Mad) (k) Senator is married to a Byzantine Empire Princess (l) Senator possesses the title of Lord High Chancellor, Lord High Steward, or Privy Seal.

[Privateerkev]

I second CA 3.5 and CA 3.8.

I would second CA 3.1a but I believe that is reserved for if the Caesar amends his own CA. I believe you would have to call your CA, CA 3.9.

And I am not quite sure why point K is changed.

[deguerra]

Because I am rushed. Just noticed myself and will fix :P

There. Thanks PK!

[ULC]

I second CA 3.5, 3.8, and 3.9

[_Tristan_]

I second CA 3.7, 3.8 and 3.9.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

An assistant walks to Efstathios and gives him a peace of paper.
Efstathios reads it through and his face get's serious.

Senators,

I just received a message from my friends in Athens.
As you remember just recently a messenger came from Antiokheia, known for his rich culture and history.

Efstathios looks towards Iakovos and smiles a little bit..

The messenger said that a small Fatimid army was near the city.
Because that army is quite small it does not represent any danger to us.
Perhaps this thing was unnoticed by majority of Senators.
But now..

Efstathios raises the letter he had received..

My friends in Athens are writing about Fatimid navies that are heading towards their city.
Yes, you all heard right.. Navies..
These two things, Fatimid navies near Athens and their army near Antiokheia, can not be coincidence.
The Caliph is gathering information about us.
Where and when to strike.
And we are discussing whether the crusade is justified!
He threatens to kill all of the Christians in Cairo and now sends small forces to scout us..
This clearly is the sign that they want war..
We can not escape from it and I rather have it on their soil than ours..

Efstathios takes his seat..

The two Fatimid Navies
https://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh311/ibnkhaldun/TW%20games/FatNavy.jpg

[Dafuge]

I also second CA 3.5, CA 3.8 and CA 3.9.

I agree that war is upon us whether it be at Cairo or fighting on the shores of Greece, there is no escape.

[Ramses II CP]

Upon hearing yet another letter read into the record, Vissa grunts audibly in reply and returns to his brief perusement of the Bible.

This is a most odd and, frankly, disgraceful way to conduct a debate in the Senate. I will indulge in it only once more. A man who will not make himself present to support his words makes them hollow on his own, without need of opposition.

So, let us begin not in violence, but of intent. From Exodus, 7:5,

And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch forth mine hand upon Egypt, and bring out the children of Israel from among them.

Is this not our very goal, to bring forth and shelter our brothers living among the infidels? As God has gone before us, so we go as well.

And to return to the words of Jesus, Mark, 6:11,

And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Those who reject the word of God, and reject the followers of the word of God, shall have punishment more terrible than those two vile cities of iniquity. Are we not the very instrument of God's justice against the Egyptians? So sayeth the Patriarch, our prime religious authority on earth. When Spartacus rose up with heresy and rebel armies against our empire we put him to death. The good senator should be wary of following in the same footsteps.

And again, in Jesus' own words, Mark, 9:42,

And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

It is hard to argue that the Egyptians don't mean to offend the little believers among them, given that they have vowed to slaughter them. It hardly seems necessary to carry a millstone to war, but if we encouter them in the sea a great many Egyptians may be cast into it in the name of the Lord.

I trust I have made my point, gentlemen, and I will not further trouble you refuting the words of a man who fears to appear to speak them. The Crusade is a just and Godly duty, and any man who joins it is working God's will in the world.

:egypt:

[BananaBob]

I second CA 3.5

[Privateerkev]

Ah, now CA 3.9 is something I can get behind. In fact it looks oddly familiar...

Anyways, this seems quite reasonable. The Emperor should be able to bestow a measure of influence upon his loyal allies. But CA 3.1 was just so overpowering as to give someone who has done essentially nothing the same automatic influence as someone who just spent 15 years being Megas.

It already has the required seconds but I whole heartedly support this bill.

I will also second CA 3.7 just so we have some options. Either CA 3.5 or CA 3.7 seems like a reasonable limit on the Caesar's ability to abuse the University system.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Fellow Senators,

Because our Empire have expanded and will expand to the Muslim lands then I will propose the following edict...

"Edict 3.4: The Megas Logothetes must keep at least one priest stationed in every region that has less than 60% Orthodox and where a church is built."

Seen how difficult it was for the Order to get the necessary supplies in Antioch, because of the large number of Muslims living there, I think that this Edict will help us convert the infidels to the true faith much faster. And this means that we would be able to support our armies and gather supplies that are needed without using force to get them...

Also.. I will second the Edict 3.3 proposed by Methodios.

[Zim]

I second edict 3.4

[Privateerkev]

I second edict 3.4.

Senator Efstathios brings up an important point by mentioning the Order's logistical difficulties last term. This Crusade is going to run out of supplies unless we take steps beforehand to prevent it.

Since the Caesar has made quite clear that he will refuse to spend a single florin supporting this Crusade, and since others in this room are very much intent on voting for a man who will refuse to support the Crusade, we need to take action.

I strongly urge that someone put forth an edict requiring that 4 priests be sent by ship to Egypt immediately. 2 would go to Alexandria and 2 would go to Cairo.

The Order has some experience in trying to operate in a land populated by those of another faith. If we do not this, the Caesar will be able to strand all Crusaders and leave them completely without supplies. Which would effect horrible morale penalties upon our troops. I've seen it. My whole army melted away at Antioch at the mere sight of the enemy because they were not supplied. It fell upon me and my men to take on the enemy army by ourselves 120 to 1500.

The only way to prevent that from occurring again is to convert the population as soon as possible. Once Alexandria and Cairo are 50% Orthodox, then the local population will allow supplies to be procured by the army. If this doesn't happen, then the Crusader armies will eventually run out of supplies even if they take the settlements. Sitting in the settlements will allow them to prevent losing more supplies. But it will not help them gain the supplies back.

I strongly urge every man going on Crusade, or with House members going on Crusade to think long and hard before casting your vote for a man who is so hostile to the Crusade.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

I agree with Makedonios.
We need to send some priests to Alexandria and Cairo to help the Crusade.
Being one of the Crusaders all edicts that could make this campaign easier are welcomed by me.

[Ferret]

I am in favour of this, a CA I had in mind has been made redundant anyway.

I propose Edict 3.5: 4 priests shall be sent to Egypt, two to Alexandria, two to Cairo, as fast as possible preferably ahead of all crusading forces.

[Zim]

I second Edict 3.5.

If we are going to take control of Egypt from the Caliph, then we have a responsibility to bring the people there to Christ, even regardless of the also noble goal of ensuring our crusaders can attain the supplies they will need.

I also second CAs 3.5 and 3.7.

[AussieGiant]

Standing and addressing the chamber.

Doesn't it strike this body of nobles as being somewhat absurd that we are proposing edicts that essentially send priests halfway across the region to convert the population of a nation in preparation for invasion!!??

Because lets be clear, this is an invasion of currently neutral nation. This is no 'Just' conflict we are starting. The more the logistics and realities of the situation present itself here in the Magnaura the clearer this is becoming.

The northern frontier is barely converted, while Antioch and the surrounding areas are in a similar situation. Wouldn't these priest be better served on our current borders?

[TinCow]

OOC: Only 3 people have signed up for the Crusade so far. I urge more to do so. Remember, you MUST send me a PM if you wish to join. The deadline is the end of voting on Tuesday.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Efstathios looks at Apionnas at says..

A neutral nation would not send it's army an our lands.
A neutral nation would not send it's navies to threaten our ports.
A neutral nation would not try to kill every last people who have a different faith than theirs.

Efstathios shakes his head..

No .. Only a nation that wishes war does these things..
Sending priests, before any of the Crusaders get there, might delay the Caliphs plans to exterminate all Christians in Cairo and probably in all of the Fatimids lands.
If the number of the followers of the Christ would increase then we might get there before the Caliph can massacre them all.
I hope that he has not given the orders to do that already!

Raising his voice a little bit Efstathios says..

I second Edict 3.5

Looking towards Savvas he smiles and says...

And this was not yelling ..

[Privateerkev]

Makedonios sighs.

Funny but I didn't hear this kind of resistance from Apionnas when the war with the Turks was proposed. And the Turks weren't about the massacre countless Christians and desecrate ancient Holy Places.

This is really simple Apionnas. Priests need to be sent to Egypt with the Crusaders or the Crusaders will run out of supplies. When that happens, it will be difficult for the Crusaders to win a battle at all against any substantial amount of forces.

If we are going to send these men on Crusade, then we must fully and completely support them.

And before you say Antioch is barely converted, keep in mind that Antioch currently has over 60% Orthodox in it's population. Antioch has become a case study in the logistical difficulties in ruling over populations of a different faith and it's lessons can, and should, be applied to making sure the Crusade succeeds.

[OverKnight]

A visibly shaking and distraught scribe hands the Basileus an updated list (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1969438&postcount=3) of legislation and then collapses. Aleksios reviews the list and speaks.

Hmmm, quite a long one, I think I will second CA 3.1.

The scribe moans in his stupor.

I'm sure that since the Patriarch saw fit to call this Crusade without consulting me or the Senate, he will be funding it with his own money. I am loath to support an enterprise that was not presented to the Senate for review or approval before it was introduced.

The Basileus sighs.

Not to mention the the possible repercussions of dividing our efforts even further and creating another enemy in the Muslim world. Still, it will be up to the Senate to determine how much support the Crusade will receive.

Aleksios pauses and speaks again.

Having reviewed the positions of the two candidates and the likely situation they will be facing during the next term, I have decided to endorse Caesar Ioannis for the position. Piety must be balanced with practicality, and duty to the Church with duty to the Empire, and, with all due respect to Savvas ek Militiou, I feel Ioannis is the best man to achieve that balance.

[OverKnight]

Aleksios continues.

My thoughts on some the proposed legislation:

Edict 3.1: I am opposed to a larger conflict with the Egyptians than needed by the Crusade.

Edict 3.2: I support this, though an occupation only policy will cause difficulties for the Crusaders.

Edict 3.3: I am opposed to this, Iasi is too far north to be defensible. Let one of our allies have it.

Edict 3.4 and Edict 3.5: While I wish to see conversion to the true faith, mandating priests in multiple territories handcuffs the Megas Logothetes. I oppose both Edicts.

I support CA 3.1. The Basileus is outside the House structure, whoever holds the office must have some way to reward loyalty.

I also support the creation of a University.

[pevergreen]

"Not only do I agree with the Basileus on his opinion on Edict 3.4, it is also worded incorrectly.

Am I not mistaken that if a new region with less than half the populace converted, and NO church, the Megas has no responsibility to send a priest there?"

[Ibn-Khaldun]

The church requirement has been added because if there are no churches then we will soon be unable to recruit priests at all!
The Megas Logothetes can still send priests into newly conquered territories that have less than 60% and don't have churches.. I don't say that he can't.. But it would be the Megas decision whether he would do it or not..
Also.. If one priest is stationed in those provinces then it would be much easier to deal the Heretics as well..

[TinCow]

The Protoasecretes pounds his staff on the floor several times.

"The time for proposing legislation has now expired. Voting will commence shortly and will be open until 9am EST on Tuesday, July 22nd."

OOC: There are now 5 people signed up for the Crusade. This is better than before, but I would still prefer more.

[Ramses II CP]

OOC: Can I sign up for the Crusade twice? :laugh4:

:egypt:

[Privateerkev]

A letter arrives at the Magnaura and is read by an aide who works for the Order.


Your Highness and Senators,

News has just reached me of the atrocity that has happened in nearby Iconium. Antypatos Hypatios has directed the slaughter of over 6000 people. Myself and the Order of St. John condemns this action in the strongest possible language.

While some of us are going on Crusade to save lives, Hypatios has decided to cruelly end them back at home. His act was a blatant violation of Edict 3.2 and I ask that the Caesar level harsh punishments upon this man. Our laws can not be so flagrantly violated. I also ask that House Asteri consider punishing this man as well. His act is a stain upon that great House's honor. They need to disavow this man's actions immediately.

I ask just what is it that we are fighting for if we are going to butcher innocent women and children after we take enemy cities? Hypatios must be made to answer for both the eradication of Smyrna, as well as this latest atrocity at Iconium. If we let this action stand, then our laws are a joke and the Senate is little more that a rubber stamp for a few powerful people.

Repectfully,
Makedonios Ksanthopoulos
Antypatos and Grandmaster of the Order of St. John

[Kagemusha]

Representative of Ioannis Kantakouzinos stands up and reads from a letter

"My master congratulates the men involved in successfully assaulting Iconium. No mercy should be given to the enemies of the Empire. While some members of this senate are deemed for sure to raise issues against the sack of Iconium, many of them are just now preparing to invade Egypt, without any reason for war, other then their personal greed. Killing few or killing many doesnt differ much in the end. The importance can be found from the reasons for killing

Signed Ioannis Kantakouzinos
House of Komnenodoukai"

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Efstathios raises..

Perhaps we could send him exile for a year or to ..
There is that island with the watchtower between Greece and Anatolia..
I think year or two is enough ..

These are just my thoughts ..
I like the laws ..
I think they have a purpose..
So even a important figures like Hypatios should follow them..

He takes his seat..
Many would be suprised why is he still here but .. it is SO boring in the Crusaders camp...

[woad&fangs]

passing through the Magnaura, Solomon stops in shock upon hearing of Iconium's fate...

"I hope a Seljuk spear finds Hypatios' throat before he again finds himself in control of a city!"

Solomon takes a moment to calm down and then continues

"I expect Caesar Ioannis will deal with him harshly."

[Dafuge]

Iwouldn't comdemn anybody to death, not even the Sultan Annios.

[pevergreen]

"Annios, do not be so quick to jump to anger. The Tepaki must remain neutral. Stand down man."

[00jebus]

*Letter from Lisas, which is read by a scribe*

Life as a turk is hard, you have to ride everywhere, even in a city, everyone has to learn how to fire a bow and worst of all you are lead by incompetant morons.
If anyone chooses to live that life, by say, resisting our own glorious troops taking a few needed supplies from their homes, instead of joining our own empire when they had the chance than who cares what happens to them?
I certantly wont loose sleep over it, nor will any of the men I'm travalling with, dead enemies can't kill you after all, and if they did refuse such a chance at joining us than they will have been enemies eventually.

I also doubt that these were women and children that were killed, if the honourable and humble grandmaster could provide proof of this than he might have a point. Until then,

*the scribe looks over to the Asteri delegation*

He says to congradulate Antypatos Hypatios on a well faught battle and for killing the sultan, and for ignoring such an unfair edict.... and to reward him for killing the sultan.

[Ferret]

An Asteri scribe in Hypatios' livery looks pleased at the support offered by other senators, but makes no comment.

[Ramses II CP]

Gentlemen, this is pathetic. Iconium was a city of around eight thousand civilian souls before the battle, and the most recent accounting puts that number at just under two thousand after the battle. Those numbers do not include soldiers. If any man here would have me believe that there were six thousand shiftless but hale men lying about waiting for the first Greek to come along and slaughter them, but unwilling to pick up so much as a dagger in their own defense, I will call that man a fool and a liar. Tales passed from soldier to soldier speak of the most horrific abominations, of women abused before being butchered, of children decapitated for sport, and every sort of abuse piled on every moving thing that could be found. Word has it that even the dogs and camels were molested before being put down.

Any man who stands in this room and whitecoats this slaughter is complicit in it. We know what sort of man has committed these acts, and his black descent into destruction and madness is not in question. What remains to be seen is how the Emperor and the senators of the realm will be judged for their complicity in these despicable acts.

For my part, I repudiate them utterly, and the man who ordered them, and every soldier who aided in it. I say that they are not Greek, are not even the lowest form of beast, nor even worthy to be called worms that crawl through filth beneath our feet. I have a holy mission to complete, and after that has been dealt with we shall see what remains to be done to remove the stain on the honor of our people.

May God forgive the Greek people that they bore forth such a monster.

Vissarionas exits the Magnaura and does not return, staying at the shipyards or training facilities for his troops.

(OOC: Let's not pretend we're all a pack of naive idiots who never heard the word extermination before. Iconium is a major city on the trade routes and very near both borders of Byzantium. There is no chance this would pass as just another battle.)

:egypt:

[woad&fangs]

Hearing Michail's words, Solomon clenches his teeth. He grabs Hypatos' scribe by his collar and begins to speak.

I would ask God to have mercy on your masters soul but I expect even he has limits.

Solomon releases the scribe and leaves to make preparations for the Crusade.

[OverKnight]

Aleksios marches into the Magnaura.

The slaughter at Iconium was an abomination. There was no need or it. A city that was once ours, that could have served again as a vital part of the Empire is now a hollow shell.

Taking a city is never done without blood, but to destroy three quarters of the population for no reason is unconsciable.

I condemn Hypatios Machonios and his actions.

[Dafuge]

How can people not look down in disgrace at such an act. There is only one word to describe what happened at Iconium. Gencide. Pure cold murder. This was intentional, it wasn't even an accident or false orders. What disgraces me the most is that many of you who are staying silent were outraged at what happened at Antioch. And you are fine for a Crusade to save innocent people. Are you not ashamed? How do describe an innocent, a Catholic, A Muslim, a Hindu. You can't because all are innocent.

[Privateerkev]

The Grandmaster strides into the Magnaura with a grim face.

Gentlemen,

Since my army is currently stopped by the Templar roadblock, I have time to travel back here and speak in person.

Anyone who even attempts to defend Hypatios's actions is an idiot. While I strongly disagree with sacking, I can see how others would make an economic argument for it. But there is no economic argument that can be made for extermination. None. There is simply no excuse to exterminate whole populations. It is quite simply an evil act. An evil act which this Senate voted to forbid.

Not only was the evil act committed, but the will of the Senate was flagrantly disregarded and ignored. Anyone who defends this act is not only condoning cold-blooded murder, but is saying implicitly that they themselves should not be regarded when they make laws. Of course, those that condone cold-bloooded murder probably should not be regarded. But, by extension, they are saying the entire Senate can be disregarded at a whim.

The Senate voted to impose their own moral compass on their generals. Now, we are being told that some generals would like to simply ignore our will. If we let this pass, then every single law is in danger of being ignored. And as a governing body, we will have quite simply failed.

Therefore, I ask that Hypatios be immediately punished by his superiors. It is my hope that he be demoted to the point where he can not own his own army. And that he never again be allowed to command an assault on a settlement. He's already exterminated two settlements so it is not a far leap of imagination to assume he will exterminate more. In my opinion he should spend the rest of his years commanding a garrison of a inner settlement and only allowed to fight rebels armies. At least that way, he can't hurt anyone since rebels are always released back to their homes and farms.

Vissarionas is right that anyone who fails to act is also complicit in this horrible crime. Those who attempt to shield this man have blood on their hands as well. In fact, I would go so far as calling men who defend Hypatios as 'enemies of the Senate' since they support flouting our will and laws. I will remember the name of every man who even attempts to condone this dispicable act and shall keep it in mind in all future dealings between them and the Order of St. John.

[_Tristan_]

While silent until then, Methodios rises and glares at the Asteri benches.

Some years ago, people treated me as a fool when I warned of the drift that House Asteri was taking, towards becoming a House wont to commit atrocious acts. This led me to propose the first anti-extermination edict, which was gladly taken up and amended by the Grandmaster of the Oreder of St John in this new term of office for the Megas.

Is there nobody to remember the atrocities committed at Belgrade or Smyrna ? Asteri has blood on its hands... Blood that will never wash away...

Moreover the actions of Strator Machonios, for I refuse to grant him any of most respectable titles... The actions of Strator Machonios are a slap in the face of this assembly... He has just defied us... Will nobody rise and take up the challenge ?

I would do it and ride right now to Anatolia to bring down Machonios and any who seek to support him, by myself if need be but I can't for I have pledged myself to go to Egypt and save our Christian brethren there.

I hope one or more of you will rise to the challenge and avenge the honour of the Magnaura.

Just like the Grandmaster, I will remember any and all who stand to support the criminals among us when I'll have to deal with them.

If we do not, we are only inviting others to follow in Machonios' footsteps and trample the will of the Empire as expressed by its Senators.

[Kagemusha]

A rugged figure in torn clothes marches in the Senate while the Grandmaster talks. He sits down on the seats of Komnenodoukai and listens what the grandmaster is saying. Ioannis Kantakouzinos , now much older, bearded and strange fire in his eyes listens to the end, stands up and spits to the floor in the direction of Makedonias before starting to speak:

" So i am an idiot? Yes...That might be true. I have been idiot in the past, but after spending years in the North to no gain, while kinds of you are building up their own kingdoms on the expense of the Empire, has left me with little patience for insults.

So Hypatios has exterminated Iconium? So what. Was or or was not Iconium an enemy city? Of course it was once ours, like its now, but time between it was enemys, inhabited by the enemy. Giving no quarter to the enemy is idiocy you say? Then what is invading peaceful neighbors because of religious extremism and hunger for power is? Most of you sound like old women, with your sympathy for the enemy while the same time on the other hand, many of you are nothing but religious Jihadist, or powermongers cloaked as Jihadist. This is Bysantíne Empire, no, The Roman Empire, not some ragtag state of Europe or Muslim fanatics. Roman Empire does not crusade, we base our politics on political realism, not into religious extremism. Also our Empire has been known for our ruthless pollicies against our enemies, its fear that makes a mark to their hearts and gives our Empire respect in their eyes. I dont think from what should i be more worried about, about us acting like old women towards our enemies or the religious extremism and personal ambitions that are dangerous towards the power of Basileos. And last Makedonias, id like for you to withdraw your words calling me an idiot, or either i challenge you in a battle, with my personal men against yours. What say you Grandmaster?"

[_Tristan_]

Listening to what Kantakouzinos just said, Methodios just shakes his head.

And already we see what the lack of respect to the Senate's will has brought upon us, Senators defying fellow Senators to duels...

Indeed, Ioannis... You're an idiot... You've just proven it before all of us... You should have remained in your northern retreat, we wouldn't have thought less of you for doing so...

[Kagemusha]

Ioannis stands and looks in the direction of Methodios Tagaris:

"So defending one´s honour is now idiotic? There is now law that prevents me from challenging the Grandmaster, now is there? I dont care what you think of me Tagaris, if you want you can try and kill me in the field, if you cant stand my presence here in the Senate."

Kantakouzinos sits down gazing forwards with his feaverish eyes.

[Privateerkev]

Makedonios raises an eyebrow at Kantakouzinos's challenge.

I'm sorry Kantakouzinos but you are indeed an idiot and you've just reinforced that notion for us.

If you even attempt to defend cold-blooded murder of thousands of women and children, your an idiot.

If you defend the flouting of our laws, thereby invalidating the entire governing body in the process, you are an idiot.

If you call supporters of the Crusade, which include His Eminence by the way, of being "religious Jihadist[s]," then you are an idiot.

I have no time for your insecure and immature attempt to defend honor you lack. After this debate is finished, I will ride to meet up with my army and take it to war against the Fatamids. You will have to be content sulking up in the wilds of the North.

[Kagemusha]

Ioannis smiles to the Grandmaster and replies:

"Well i already said i might be an idiot, but at least im not a coward. Never before in the history of this Empire have we launched Crusades, but oh now that the Grandmaster who wants to have his own Kingdom together with the Patriarch decide´s to launch one against the will of the Basileos, its all fine. You are an Hypocrite while complaing about killing Seljuks,while you are yourself getting ready to attack Fatimids, without any real cause, im sure the widows and orphans of Fatimid soldiers protecting their country love you for being a gentle soul and caring so much about the Seljuks."

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Efstathios shakes his head...

Now .. Calm down .. little kids..

I am part of the Asteri and even I don't like what Hypatios did..

There is a possibility that he got a bump on his head and .. well ... did not know what he was doing..

IF he gave that order knowing exactly what he did then .. that is bad..

I will wait for the Megas Logothetes to respond to these strong accusation against one of our Senators..

It is weird that he hasn't showed his face yet..

Does he really support Hypatios' ways??

[_Tristan_]

Noticing the fever burning in Ioannis' eyes, Methodios adds

Isn't there some screening tests to prevent us allowing madmen among our numbers ? Or perhaps should we begin to have some sickness tests also ?

[Privateerkev]

Makedonios turns on Efstathios.

I'd watch who your calling a little kid. Your House is responsible for the actions of it's members. Therefore, if you do not do something about Hypatios, your complicit in murder.

Turning back to Kantakouzinos

I'll not take charges of cowardice from a man who has run from every challenge in his life. While you've been wandering all over the North, I've been attempting to rebuild the Empire to it's former glory. Surely you can find some better way to serve the Empire than threatening it's nobles.

And I grow tired of attempts to somehow equate the slaughter of 6000 innocent civilians with a Crusade to save innocent civilians from slaughter. Anyone who sees them as the same thing, is an idiot.

And I'm not sure how the Egyptian army next to Antioch is somehow defending their country. They wandered into our land first. And the Fatamids will be shown far greater mercy than the Turks at Iconium. The Crusade targets will be occupied and I will release all prisoners from my battle with the Fatamid army by Antioch.

[Kagemusha]

Kantakouzinos stands up and first looks in the direction of Tagaris, then moving his eyes to the Basileos:

"I am servant of Basileos, like every man here. If he deems my behavior not fitting the senate, he can order me to stay away from the senate. Maybe in that case i should march east to serve my Caesar and who knows kill some Seljuks. I am just bit worried that maybe i might kill too many, while killing our enemies is so horrible in the eyes of the senators while attacking peaceful countries is so noble."

[Dafuge]

"im sure the widows and orphans of Fatimid soldiers protecting their country love you for being a gentle soul and caring so much about the Seljuks."

You say that, would they rather be widows and orphans that dead?

[_Tristan_]

I am not one to shy away from killing enemy soldiers... Everytime I fought, not one of them (or almost) has made it alive to fight another day...

But I can see the difference between a soldier and a farmer and his wife and kids...

Can you, Ioannis, or has the fever gone so bad that you can't even see the difference ?

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Efstathios turns to Makedonios..

I will call you the way I want.. You should be happy that I don't call you sheep herders or something worse...

Our House needs to deal with this.. Yes it is true..

But you can not blame me for the deeds of another man just because we serve the same House!!!

He have higher rank than me..

It is not my decision what to do with him.. it is decision of the leader of this House!!

[Kagemusha]

With demonic smile in his face Kantakouzinos replies:

"Anyone who opposes the Empire is an enemy and our enemies should be rooted from this earth. If the women survive, in some time they will have children and when the children grow up vengeance in their hearts, we have enemies inside our empire. If you men are so fervent about God´s will in the crusade against Fatimids, why shouldnt we send the women and children of Seljuks to the purgatory, where God´s fire will clean them from all heresy that is Islam? As true Christians, you men should know life on this earth is misery, compared to joys of heaven. Why should we deny those joys from the Seljuks and Fatimids, crippling their families and leaving the women and chidlren to live in poverty and depending on sinful trades in order for the women to feed their children while we have killed the providers for those families? It would be mercy to send them all to God. Cruelty for leaving those people to suffer here on earth."

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Efstathios turns to Ioannis..

Oh shut up already you old foul!!

[Kagemusha]

Kantakouzinos turns towards Efstathios Laskaris and now with almost frindly expression on his face says:

"Laskaris, go and talk with a priest and he can confirm that Church agrees with me on this. Or are you saying that the teachings of the Church are words of old fools?"

[Ibn-Khaldun]

The teachings of the Church are always debatable ..

[Kagemusha]

"So we have heretics here also in the Senate. Not just idiots, power mongers and Zealots, but Heretics as well?"

[Ramses II CP]

A note arrives from a messenger dressed in ek Lesvou garmets to be read into the record, it says simply:

'I, Vissarionas ek Lesvou, was first in this Senate to call the supporters of extermination out, and I claim the be the first in line to deal with any who would challenge those of us who condemn them. I and my crusaders are just outside the walls of Constantinople waiting for our journey. That mission takes precedence, but any man who has words for me knows exactly where to find me. Any man who has more than words knows exactly where to find me. Don't keep me waiting. Declare yourselves. Lest anyone forget, I will repeat my claim:

The defenders of extermination are as worms feasting on filth beneath our feet. Rapists of dogs, as stories have actually happening at Iconium. You are not Greek.'

:egypt:

[ULC]

Iakovos walks into the Magnaura with a measured pace, his every movement controlled with a forced calm. He sits down next to Makedonios and quietly gets out a quill and parchment. He writes for a moment, until Ioannis Kantakouzinos opens his mouth again. His grip on the quill tightens for a second, his hand shaking. He stands up and looks eye to eye with Kantakouzinos, a smolder in his eyes from a suppressed rage.

"Strator Kantakouzinos, allow me to ask you a rather plain question: If you are so interested in serving the Empire and it's Emperor, then why do you support a man who broke Imperial Law? If you are so interested in serving the Empire and Emperor, then why do you support a man who's very actions put your entire House at risk?"

Iakvos voice raises, becomes less measured.

"But that is from such a...clinical view. No need to talk of the thousands slaughtered needlessly on a whim because a man is so corrupted by the power given to him! One man has no right to play God and decide when another should be sent to Heaven! Only God himself decides when any man, woman, or child's time, not some monster in human skin!"

Iakovos stands proudly up. "I hereby declare that I am willing at anytime to head to Iconium, with any number of men, to capture Hypatios and drag him here as he so deserves and to begin a fitting and equal punishment for his crimes against this august body!

[Ibn-Khaldun]

I don't remember that I would have said that I question the teachings of the Church..

You old man better be silent for awhile ..

Perhaps your mind will come back and you start speaking something more reasonable..

[Dafuge]

Ionnis, by people who oppose the Empire would that mean people who break the law?

[Kagemusha]

Kantakouzinos shakes his head after listening the letter.

"Maybe we are not Greeks, but for sure we are Romans. And as it has been said in the past of our Glorious Empire: Once the Ram has touched the wall, no mercy for the enemy."

"About Law, men brake law, it happens, sometimes also that bad laws are written which needs to be changed. It is completely different thing to wage War against the Empire then brake the law."

[Dafuge]

I did not say anyone was waging war with Empire, but arn't you considered to oppose someone if break one of their laws.

[Kagemusha]

" What i meant by opposing was waging war against the Empire. Only if you commit treason you oppose the Empire, by betraying it. By braking the law. you are making a mistake, which you will remedy according to law, by suffering the sentence named by the law. Law is for correcting people in their ways. War is for destroying those who are enemies of the empire."

[ULC]

Iakovos turns on Ioannis Kantakouzinos. His body shakes visibly.

"IT, just, happens!? It just happens that a law is passed by this august body is broken by a madman who defied the will of the Empire and killed thousands! Open your treasonous, filth ridden, fool of a mouth again! Try to justify a mans actions when the Emperor himself condemns them! So help me I will walk over there and shove every word you utter back down your throat!"

[Kagemusha]

Ioannis smiles to Iakovos ek Kallipoleos and says:

"Treason..Hypatios Conquered an enemy city and you call that treason. What he did was no treason. He broke the law, that i can agree with you, but calling his actions treason is ridiculous."

[Dafuge]

And you justifying them is ..... I will not utter words of such manner in this room to try and preserve what dignity is left.

[Kagemusha]

"As i already said and what Church says in these matters. His actions were mercy..mercy not cruelty for sending them all to God together instead of forcing on them a life in misery."

[ULC]

Iakovos's fists ball up.

"I like your selective hearing Strator, and your willingness to ommit both fact and common sense. Hypatios broke Imperial Law by slaughtering thousands, and your talks of defending such traitorous actions drips of sedition. I said I would shove those words down your throat if you opened your mouth in his defense again and I am a man of my word."

Iakovos walks over to Ioannis and knocks him square in the jaw, sending him to the floor, and then turns to leave.

[Dafuge]

MERCY , MERCY How dare you? How dare you say that the people of the town were happy to go to their deaths, thankfull to be slaughtered. And you said they would rather go to God than live under our rule. What is so wrong of our rule for them not to live under it?

Stamps on the forehead and turns following Iakovos

[Kagemusha]

Ioannis stands up catches Iakovos ek Kallipoleos and after moving few meters so the senators cant hear, says to him.

"Well it seems that you have more heart then your master. So will it be me and my bodyguards against you and yours on open field in full armor, to the death? Or are you too busy going to Egypt?"

[Zim]

And so it happens again.

I stayed silent after the Antioch Massacre, until no the one with the highest head count since the Magnaura was reinstated. I did this for political reasons, not wanting to offend a friend an ally. When evidence came out of the atrocities of Symrna and Belgrade, the latter which I saw with my own two eyes, I said nothing, as they were committed by fellow House members.

I told myself these events were abberations, unlikely to be repeated. And then this occurs, a major city completely decimated, just recently having been lost to the Turks. Most of its people were Imperial citizens, waiting for us to "liberate" them. Some liberation we offer, not from oppression but from life.

If this is to be prevented from happening again it must be stopped here. Hypatios must be brought to justice. It is a fine thing to have an edict against extermination, but now it is time to see if we will enforce it.

[ULC]

Iakovos shrugs off Ioannis's grip and then speaks in a very audible voice that can be heard by anyone on the Senate floor.

"Do not touch me filth! Do you fear the other Senators so much you must whisper your words of challenge?! I have little patience for false courage and fools right now, and you are both! And if you ever dare call the Grandmaster a coward, I will gut you were you stand, no matter the consequences, is that clear?!"

[Privateerkev]

Makedonios stands up clearly angry.

Enough!

There will be no fighting in the Senate!

Glaring at Iakovos.

I expect ALL members of the Order to behave with respect!

You WILL apologize for loosing your temper.

Now!

[Kagemusha]

Ioannis raises his voice so others can hear:

"No. I did not want to yell out my challenge, in order to save your face, if you would back out. But since you negelcted that gesture, let it be known to all that i challenge Iakovos ek Kallipoleos, before the Senate and all its members, to a combatt until other one of us is dead."

"I will take my leave now that i have said what i came here to say. Kallipoleos im available here in the city if you decide to accept my challenge."

[Ferret]

Hypatios' clerk sniggers, evidently enjoying the trouble his master has provoked.

[Privateerkev]

Turning to Efstathios.

You are forgetting your place... Strator...

Then turns to Kantakouzinos.

You claim to know what the Church thinks. But His Eminence is the Head of our Church and I have NEVER heard him condone exterminations.

And the law Hypatios broke was voted on by the Emperor himself. And the Emperor has publically condemned Hypatios. How do you reconcile that fact with your attitude?

As for courage, a real man proves it through actions not hollow words. If you can think of nothing better to do than kill your fellow nobles, you'll find me out in Antioch. But if you want to really impress me you'll do something with your life and serve the Empire.

Unlike you, Iakovos has been serving loyally in both the army and now as governor. Your a waste of his valuable time.

[Kagemusha]

Ioannis stops on the door, when hearing the words of the Grandmaster, turns around and replies.

"It is up to Senate to decide the faith of Hypatios. As i said before about killing your enemy. There are worse things then death. you know, Grandmaster. I dont claim to know what Church thinks, but what it preaches. And you know fully well, what it preaches about non believers, pagans and heretics. It is up to God to forgive them, not to us. All we can do is to deliver them to God. So with your actions you are willing to condemn those poor souls to life in lie, here on earth. Why should you be able to stand on the way of will of God?"

"Also is only working for you valuable work for Empire? I followed Basileos on his initial campaigns to West, governed his castle for years while gaining nothing from it and you say i havent done anything to the Empire. Well you are entitled to your opinion Grandmaster."

Without waiting for an answer Kantakouzinos leaves the Senate

[ULC]

Iakovos turns to Makedonios, his face softening, slightly.

"Forgive me Grandmaster, I jumped ahead of myself. I apologize for those in the Senate, and to the Emperor for letting that...man, get to me."

[Privateerkev]

Makedonios nods to Iakovos approvingly.

You know you are better than that. And you are much better than him. Let him leave and yell at the trees. We have real work to do.

He then speaks to the Senate while looking at the door Kantakouzinos just left through.

What Kantakouzinos is not keeping in mind is that dead people can not be shown the Truth. Every non-believer we kill is a lost chance to convert them to the True Word of the Lord.

[flyd]

A short note arrives from Antypatos Markianos Ampelas

If any of you are wondering what the position of the leadership of the House Asteri will be on this matter, it will be decided once Kalameteros recovers. It hardly strikes me as an urgent issue.

[Privateerkev]

Makedonios looks apalled at what was read out loud.

Not an urgent matter?

Then what is?

Someone massacres thousands of civilians in open defiance of the Senate and the second ranking person of the House says, "It hardly strikes [him] as an urgent issue?"

If House Asteri refuses to condemn and punish this man, then I will rethink ever dealing with them on anything ever again.

[flyd]

Some clerk/scribe guy from the Asteri section stands

I believe that sir Ampelas has not stated that it's not an important issue, but only that it's not an urgent one. As in, it won't make a difference if a decision is made now or in a few days.

[Privateerkev]

Makedonios looks at the clerk annoyed.

Since Ampelas is Hypatios's legal lord, he can come down here and answer for his vassal. He doesn't need to wait for Kalameteros.

Speaking of Hypatios, why isn't he here? He has the 'courage' to use his sword to violate young women after he cuts their heads off, so he must have the courage to come and face us!

[Dafuge]

I also apologize fully to everyone who witnessed my actions in the Senate. I got ahead of myself with anger and let a fool get to me. I am ashamed that he did.

[Andres]

Savvas enters the Magnaura, his armor full of dust, an exhausted look on his face. He takes of his helmet, grabs a goblet, pours it full with wine and drinks.

"4 horses! 4 horses died to get me here as fast as possible! And what do I find? A bunch of bickering Senators who seem to be eager to start a civil war? Stop this madness!"

Savvas looks around and yells: "STOP IT! What do you want? The end of our Empire?"

Savvas inhales and speaks a bit softer.

"Hypatios exterminated a whole city and violated a recently voted Edict. This is a serious matter. But... Hypatios, how despicable his actions may be, is still a Senator of this Magnaura and he did his despicable act during a war."

Savvas looks around.

"I have seen war and it isn't pretty. I despise Hypatios' acts. A true Roman stays civilised, even in times of war. But, I can understand that some people cannot deal with the pressure. This is not a justification of his acts, but, we should hear Hypatios' version of the facts.

I suggest the Basileus orders him to come to Constantinople immediately. We need to hear Hypatios and as a Senator, he should be able to defend his case. Hypatios should be jailed, in the best possible circumstances of course, until the Basileus, assisted by the Magnaura if he desires it so, can judge him.

But allow me to insist on serenity in this matter.

Hypatios' act was barbaric, but that doesn't mean we have to act as barbarians as well. We shouldn't threat each other and challenge each other to meet on the field of battle! We are all Romans! We are brothers!

Anyone who even dares to insinuate fighting another Senator, should seriously calm down. Senators fighting each other is civil war. Civil war, mylords, would not only bring us disaster, but he who starts it, will forever be known as a traitor!

We are all Romans, gentlemen and our Empire is in peril! Crusades are coming our way! The Seljuks are not yet defeated and a significant number of our finest Generals will go on a Holy Crusade!

I repeat: I ask for serenity.

Hypatios should be put on trial. Let the Basileus, assisted by the Magnaura if he desires, judge over Hypatios' actions and decide over a fitting punishment.

That, dear Senators is the course of action that we, civilised men, should need to follow.

Savvas stands up again.

I would love to continue the debates with you, good sirs, but unfortunately, I have to get back to my troops now. Please, calm down, take a goblet of wine and think before you speak.

Please gentlemen, I consider you all as brothers. One our brothers has made a terrible mistake and needs to be judged, but that doesn't mean that Romans should start killing Romans. That would lead to our downfall and the end of the Roman Empire.

Savvas takes his helmet and hastily walks out the Magnaura. When he passes the Grandmaster's table, he stops and looks at Makedonios.

"Dear Grandmaster, allthough you have done much good since then and you are trying to redeem yourself, I have not forgotten what has happened in Antioch. I think that over the years, I have forgiven your actions, but that doesn't take away the fact that you are not very well placed to condemn Hypatios."

With a sad, disappointed look on his face, Savvas jumps on his horse outside the Magnaura and drives away.

[Privateerkev]

Makedonios sighs and says quietly to know one.

Anyone who, equates being knocked unconscious and having his army decide for themselves to kill military aged men to, purposefully violating thousands of women, killing them, and then violating them again while their dead is well and truly an idiot...

OOC: It's Makedonios... ~;p

*edit*

Thanks! ~:cheers:

[Kagemusha]

Scribe of Ioannis Kantakouzinos reads from a note.

"My Master has instructed me to say that since the underlings and master of Order of St. John keep insulting him verbally in the Senate even after he has offered to them honourable way to solve the issues between them and himself in combat, which they have declined, from now on he will address them as cowards here in Senate, which should not be seen as insult, since the mentioned members of said order declined to prove themselves while the senate was witnessing and still after that remain to insult my master verbally, while proven cowards themselves."

[Privateerkev]

Ah yes the brave Kantakouzinos has bravely sent a note.

How brave.

His bravery is noted.

But I am afraid that I am just so inimidated by the bravery of the absent Kantakouzinos, that I have decided not to act.

So, if he would like to come back in here and debate this rationally he is quite welcome. If he wants to skulk the streets of Constantinople and write threatening notes to bravely have read in his absence, he can do that as well.

[Kagemusha]

The scribe writes Makedonias words down and dispatches the note via courier.

[Kagemusha]

After a while Kantakouzinos returns.

"Dear Makedonias, have you changed your mind? I received a note that you are talking about bravery here while im absent. The issue is simple, you and your underlings continue insulting me here in Senate, while not any of you is not man enough to accept my challenge. This is not matter of debate. If you call people idiots or attack their person, you must be ready to face the consequences of such actions. You have failed in that and we all know what that makes you. Now even after you have proven yourself unable to do so, you still continue with such actions. Sounds it is you who are the all bark, no bite."

Ioannis nods his head slightly and sits down with amusing expression on his face.

[Privateerkev]

Makedonios looks bored now.

If you can't take criticism, you shouldn't be in politics. I'm sorry your ego is so fragile. I have no desire to fight another noble but I will defend myself if you insist on attacking me.

But I do hope you find something better to do with your time other than find ways to rub your wounded pride.

[Kagemusha]

"Criticism is one thing Grandmaster, insults and physical attacks are another. A man of such a noble character as you should understand the difference between those two. I wonder how you would react for example if one of your men would be attacked here in Senate building. I guess we will see how Caesar Ioannis will react to it."

[Privateerkev]

Iakovos was chided for his actions and he apologized. If the Emperor or Caesar wish for him to pay a higher penance, they will say so and he will be expected to obey it.

Since I am responsible for him, I will apologize to you good sir for the actions of my vassal.

Makedonios stands up and walks across the chambers to Kantakouzinos.

I am sorry that one of my members struck you. It will not happen again.

Makedonios extends his hand.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Efstathios looks how Makedonios gives his hand to Kantakouzinos and says quietly

What a pushover!

[Kagemusha]

Kantakouzinos watches Makedonias, then Makedonias hand and then Makedonias eyes. With a small smile on his face with sharp expression in his eyes he takes the hand of the grandmaster and shakes it, saying:

"For my part, apology accepted."

After Makedonias returns to his seat, Kantakouzinos leaves the Senate again.

[Andres]

Savvas enters the building and stands right in front of Makedonios, an angry look on his face.

Grandmaster, one of my bodyguards who was still in the building because nature called, heard you calling me an idiot.

Now, tell me Grandmaster, were you or were you not the commander in charge of the army that committed the well known attrocities in Antioch?

[Privateerkev]

Makedonios stands up and looks Savvas in the eye.

I was the commander and I was responsible. But I did not give the order to sack that place. What I did was terrible and I will answer to God for it later. But I did not order the army to sack Antioch.

So yes, if anyone dares to equate my situation with the horrible and despicable act that Hypatios ordered, then I will call him an idiot.

Do you have a problem with that?

The Grandmaster simply stands and stares, waiting for Savvas to respond.

[TheFlax]

Princess Anna rushes in the Magnaura in a state of disarray, her usually pristine clothing ruffled and marred by dirt, her face showing signs of deep fatigue and yet her eyes remained eerily intense.

Senators! Pardon my current state but this could not wait. I have just returned from Iconium after witnessing the horrors Hypatios Machonios has inflicted upon the population of this city. The streets were thick with the stench of death, bodies littered everywhere without concern. This was the hellish sight which greeted me as I entered the city.

I had hoped this was some sort of mistake, yet when I confronted the man who orchestrated this despicable atrocity, he assured me he was in control of the situation. When I told him of my wish to escort him before your esteemed presence so that you may judge his crime, he had my men detained and threatened me with a similar fate if I pushed the issue. In his meglomania he declared he was above the petty laws of this assembly, that he did not feel bound by the edicts which were voted not so long ago and that he had better to do than present himself before you.

Finally he revealed his true colors, working hand with a ruthless group who stoops to threatening children and aiding butchers in their bloody tasks. Some of you might have heard of this "Organization", well they were present at Iconium and at Machonios' side!

It is obvious that he holds no respect for you Senators, he cares little for the laws of the Empire and has quite possibly lost all sanity. Those of you waiting for his words before condemning him will wait for a long time, for he has no intention of stopping his bloody campaign for you. How long will you seat here and discuss of this in an academic fashion before you take action? How many dead will it take before any of you take action against this madman?

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Efstathios jumps up..

What is 'She' doing here!
This is not a place for women!
I ask you to leave or I will remove you from this place myself!
Princess or not you have no right to be here!

[Privateerkev]

Upon seeing the Princess run in, Makedonios turns from Savvas to listen to her. When she is done, he turns on Efstathios.

Stand down Strator! You will let her speak!

Turning to Anna, he speaks.

Your Highness, thank you for bringing this news to us.

Senators, the situation is clear. Hypatios willingly, and even gladly, butchered thousands of innocent people and disregarded our authority.

I call upon Senator Ampelas to break his oath of fealty to his vassal and for Hypatios's vassals to break with him. Then, I ask that House Asteri detain this madman and bring him here before us.

We must have justice!

If Hypatios is going hide like a coward, then we must bring him here!

And I know of the 'Organization' the Princess speaks of. They are a pathetic group of evil men and if they are working with Hypatios, then that bodes ill. This group has attacked the Princess, attacked me, and threatened the safety of her daughter. If Hypatios is working with such men, then that is just another thing he will have to answer for.

I dare say this is important enough to call upon the Emperor to call an Emergency Session! We must immediatly pass laws bringing Hypatios to justice now! Despite Ampelas's assertions, this can not wait!

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Efstathios sits and shakes his head...

Womens in the Magnaura.. what next.. man on the moon?!

[TheFlax]

Anna glares at Efstathios.

I know my place Senator, but my testimony could not wait a formal proceeding. I remain for the sole purpose of answering any questions this assembly may have. When I will not be needed anymore, I will leave.

[Zim]

Kosmas looked troubled at Anna's appearance. What did that monster do? He whispers to one of his servants who immediately leaves the room, then stands and walks to within a few feet of Anna.

"Princess, I have a few questions. We've hearad much of the relative 'innocence' of killing enemies. Did you see any evidence that Christians had ben killed, or churches looted? Did you get an idea of the scale of the massacre? What happened to your guard and retinue? And most importantly," Kosmas leans forward and looks Anna in the eyes before continuing, lowering his voice. "Are you ok?"

[TheFlax]

Anna nods slightly to Kosmas before taking voice.

I cannot say I have walked the whole of the city, but what I did witness was indiscriminate killing. It is hard to discern the faith of a dead man, but the way this mass-murder was orchestrated there is little doubt Christians were also victim of Hypatios Machonios' folly. Perhaps the churches were not looted, but the homes were invaded, place of commerce pillaged and mangled bodies thrown in the streets without concern or care. Verily, the streets ran red with blood and the air was thick with death. The butcher of Iconium himself was covered in the blood of innocents when he greeted me, lounging in the throne of the now dead Sultan of our enemies!

In the end, my men were released and we were escorted out of the city safely, but this those not in anyway absolve Hypatios Machonios of the atrocities he committed!

[ULC]

Iakovos listens to Anna with increasing disgust. He stand sharply, his body trembling slightly from raw anger.

"Hypatios has committed murder on a grand scale, mercilessly killing 6000 innocent people. He has committed an atrocity, broke Imperial Law, and now refuses to be judged, taking a whole army with him and possibly holding the Head of House Asteri prisoner, and what do we do? Nothing! We debate, back and forth, if he is even guilty. How can you debate that anymore?! How can you in good conscience sit here and do NOTHING! The Princess is the only one, the only ONE, to have so far taken the courage to try and bring this man to justice, and I for one am ashamed! Of myself, of all of us!"

"I ask that this august body grant me a small army, to go and retrieve Hypatios Machonios from Iconium, forcibly if necessary, and I ask any Senators with half the bravery of the Princess to join me in doing so! Hypatios needs to be brought to justice! So I ask now, who will ride with me?!"

[Andres]

Savvas looks at Makedonios.

Guess our little dispute will have to wait...

He then looks at Anna.

It seems we have a witness of Hypatios' actions. A witness whose integrity is above all doubt, I might add.

I volunteer to do whatever the Basileus orders to solve this mess.

Savvas sits down and waits.

[Cecil XIX]

Armatos enters Magnaura, and after moving to the Marshall's table quickly begins reading the transcript of the previous events.

Senators, the situation is clear. We have a man in charge of a large army who enjoys killing for it's own sake. This is barbarism of the highest order. What's more, Iconium was a city with a substantial population of True Believers, some fourty-five for every one hundred citzens. Senator Machonios has violated the will of the Senate with his vile actions, and what's worse he has commited a vile affront to the Lord with his vast slaughter.

It is essential to the preservation of the Empire's authority the Senator be brought to justice, and made to answer for his crimes.

[Dafuge]

I don't know about leading an army but I will do anything that is of help of bringing Hypatios to justice.

[OverKnight]

Varangians in full armor march into the Senate led by the Basileus. His bodyguard circles the Magnaura keeping a watchful eye out as the Basileus strides to the center of the room. Aleksios looks old and tired, but as he speaks, an iron resolve can be heard in his voice.

Enough! Peace, Senators, peace!

The next man who threatens violence in this chamber, either directly or by proxy, will be expelled.

I will have civility in this Chamber. This is the Magnaura, not the Hippodrome. If you wish to roll around in the dust and curse each other, do it there.

I hereby summon Hypatios Machonos to the Magnaura to present his side of what occurred at Iconium. If he does not, or sends a clerk to do his talking, I will summon an Emergency Session and propose legislation to bring him here in chains.

Until I hear the full story, no further action will be taken. We all have other matters to attend to, I strongly suggest we do so.

The Basileus looks at Efstathios Laskaris and quietly speaks again.

Senator, please do not tell my daughter where she can or cannot go. Do not speak to the Dean of our newly established University in such a manner.

The Basileus casts a challenging look around the chamber.

I assume no one has an objection to the appointment? Good.

[Dafuge]

I think it is a well chosen and very well thought out decision. To be totally honest I didn't see it coming but now I look at it again it is very clever, especially after all the commotion that Ceaser might get the position.

[BananaBob]

Nathanail, who has stayed silent during this ordeal, is finally having colour return to his face. After nodding as the Basileus speaks, he rests his head in his hands and sighs.

[00jebus]

*Lisas shows up, looking dirty and slightly revolted, he takes up his seat and looks around at the komnenodoukai staff, he angrily whispers at them*

I thought he sacked it?
who the hell was in charge of fact checking last week?

*A few senetors notice and look at him*

Umm, yes, as always, I think we should all head the words of the emperor, and not pass judgement before all the facts are in, especally those of us who havn't been to Iconium

[Dafuge]

Were you not informed of what happened at Iconium Lisas, or has someone failed to deliever the right message?

Stavros raises his eyebrows a little as he talks.

[00jebus]

*slightly hotly at being adressed by his first name by a lower ranking senetor who isn't a personal friend*

As I'm sure some of the more experienced members of the order can tell you *Stavros*, getting a newly won settlement off the ground takes work, I was told it was taken and sacked, heard a terrible rumour and decided that I could find my answers here or in Iconium itself, Constantinople is much quicker to get to thanks to some of the sea traders I've met whilst looking for a suitable sight for a port.

On my way in, I was informed of the settlements true, much worse fate.

[Ignoramus]

Ioannis Komnenos storms into the Magnaura.

Strator Kantakouzinos, while I respect the right of you to express your opinions, I am shocked at your callous disregard for Roman law and your indifference to the slaughter of a city where many Romans lived. If you do not change your tone in the future, I shall be forced to absolve you of your oath of fealty to me.

As for Antypatos Machonios, I am utterly disgusted at the man. The breaking of Roman law is bad enough, but the slaughter of innocents is shocking. We are not Franks, who live for killing. We are Romans, guardians of civilisation. I second my father's demand that he show himself and explain his actions.

Ioannis leaves the Magnuara.

[BananaBob]

Although shock and outraged are absolutely needed at a time like this, I think we must know ask how we are to deal with Hypatios Machonios. If the atrocities we are hearing are indeed true, then prudent action is needed, for he has committed criminal actions of the highest degree against the empire and its citizens.

Who shall be given the responsibility of carrying out a sentence, whatever that may be, against him? Who shall decide what his punishment will be?

We have gained too much ground as our restoration of Byzantium continues to let some madman destroy our unity. I think we need a efficient system to put to trial those who defy the will of the senate.

[AussieGiant]

Apionnas stands and waits until there is a long enough pause in discussions to begin in a quiet tone.

My Lords,

I find some of the outraged remarks here to be naive to say the least. War is brutal and it is a place for brutal actions and brutal men. Some rulers select their generals with this trait solely in mind.

Having said that, the actions of the Strator in question are in line with what I have seen and expect to see in war. The killing of innocents is tragic, but it's something that has occurred in the past and will occur in the future. The simple fact is, he broke Imperial law and for that reason alone he must be presented here for disciplinary measures.

Bowing to the Basileus the young officer continues:

I am more than willing to act as the prosecutor in this matter on behalf of the Basileus. As an unaligned senator I believe I am in a position to discharge this service to the Magnaura as a whole.

Pausing again Apionnas now walks out from behind the chamber bench and into the inner circle.

While disipline needs to be enforced here, the damage has already been done. Our inward focus on this matter is tragically wrong if we are to truly realise the impact of this action.

The Patriarch called a Crusade, one that was based on arguably our moral high ground.

That high ground in now a valley from which we can be ambushed from all sides!! Cairo, Baghdad, Rome, these cities and their rulers are entirely aware of what has happen in Iconium.

The folly of our Patriarch is now clear to see. It was taught to me that a Just War is one that has the support and backing of its ruler. Given how this Empire is structured, I do not recall our Clergymen coming here to this chamber and making their case for calling a Crusade. Quite the contrary, our clergy had the audacity to simply declare this Holy War without one word being spoken in our direction.

We are a laughing stock my lords. I have it on good authority that the Caliph himself finds our actions highly amusing in light of recent events, more importantly, his generals and moderate followers have had their resolved steeled by what has occurred in Iconium. A week ago we had momentum, NOW we have a nation and it's people prepared to fight until the very end to protect themselves from an unjust war being fought by an Empire who preaches one thing and does another.

Slamming a fist on a bench Apionnas continues.

And don't for one second believe that anyone in this chamber can distance himself from the actions of our fellow Senator. Here, internally, manoeuvre all you want my lords, but outside these wall, in our own cities and certainly beyond our own borders, THE DYE has been set.

We are what we are!! Keep this in mind when it comes to our future dealing with other nations. And certainly keep it in mind when we speak to each other about what each of us perceives as what is RIGHT or WRONG!

[Ferret]

Hypatios' scribe stands

My Lord sends word that he is making all haste here and will arive shortly

(OOC:after I've walked my dog...)

[_Tristan_]

Senator vringas, I must disagree with you... The taint on the Byzantine name with our neighbours can be washed away if we all stand to condemn the man who acted so atrociously...

If he is brought to justice and condemned, then our neighbours will surely reconsider... One cannot condemn an entire nation for the acts of a single madman, unless he gathers support from his brothers, as is threatening to happen in Egypt...

I think that an extraordinary tribunal should be appointed by our Basileos to judge the acts of Hypatos Machonios, its members chosen among the Senators.

Let all know that justice has supreme rule in Byzantine lands and abroad.

[Ferret]

Hypatios enters the room calmly and coolly, as if nothing has happened.

Gentlemen, I understand news of my victory has traveled fast, though I have also been told that it has not been seen in a clear light. I expected to be congratulated for what I have done, did I not capture the capital of our enemies? Did I not slay the enemy Sultan? If doing deeds such as these is punishable in this nation then I am not so sure I want to belong to it, I should be rewarded!

As for the fate of the settlement, I felt it was necessary to deliver the infidel into God's hands. On the eve of the battle God sent me a dream and in that dream He commanded me to rid the city of non-believers and allow the evicted Romans to take up their lost lands, would you have me deny the wishes of God!? I swear now that not a single true Christian was so much as harmed during the capture, only those that refused to see the true light were sent to Him for judgment.

Now I understand I may have broken a law during the capture but I have my reasons for that as well. Was not the edict invented to direct or restrict the current Chancellor, to give all senators a say in how the Megas deals with matters of state? Yet know we pass edicts directing the personal choices that generals have always had, since the founding of Rome! And now I hear I am to be punished for doing what I think, even know, is better for the Empire? Is it not better to have one decisive battle, allowing loyal Roman citizens to inhabit our towns than to have Turks and Infidel living there, who will rise against us at any and all conceivable opportunities?

Compare that to what I have done, the enemy is weak, their capital lost, their Sultan dead, their whole Kingdom in disarray. If these people were kept alive they would flee to Turkish lands, breed or become Turkish warriors, causing more of our men to die when they need not! Even if I did break a law should it not be forgotten in return for the favours I have done to the Empire as a whole? Think what could happen if the Sultan still lived, and the Capital was still in Turkish lands, hundreds of Roman ladies would become widows when now they will not, hundreds of Roman children would be fatherless when now they will not! Our enemies fear me now, and so less will fight, less of our men will die, less of you will die.

[AussieGiant]

You broke the law Senator Machonios.

Explain it away anyway you wish. I would expect discipline to be severe if I was you.

Inclining his head towards Methodios he continues.

Senator Tagaris, disagree as much as you see fit. That is your prerogative.

However, I hardly see how our punishment of Senator Machonios will suddenly have the moderate supporters of the Egyptian Caliph wonder just what their ruler is doing killing innocent Christians. We of course have now killed innocent Muslims in their thousands and at this very moment pursue a Holy Crusade against him for doing exactly what he has apparently done to us. I'm wondering what our response would be if a Jihad was to be called against Constantinople!!

Your reasoning is simple at best and does not address how we are now perceived outside this chamber.

[Andres]

Comes Apionnas Vringas is right. We do not only have to deal with...

Savvas stares at Hypatios in disbelief.

our... colleague...

But we will also have to worry about our standing amongst other nations. We know the truth, but our foes will bend and explain it as if it was the Emperor and the Magnaura who ordered these attrocities.

And on top of that, the last report of the Caesar tells us that the treasury is empty.

We have much to worry about.

[_Tristan_]

Methodios stands up, glaring at Machonios.

I would have been first to celebrate you, had you claimed the city with no or few losses of lives on either side... War is grusesome, that I know at first hand but even so, that does not mean we must become beasts and conduct ourselves without reserve or mercy...

I'd like to remind our "colleague" that Iconium was still a Byzantine city, less than fourty years ago... (OOC : Manzikert dates back to 1071)... So most of those 6000 men and women you killed were subjected to our rule until then... Do you think they had a choice when the Turks invaded ? No, they had none... They bowed like the reed in the wind, if only to survive... And what kept them going was the hope that one day our Empire would recover to come and save them... And now, at the moment of their liberation, they are cast into the fires of Hell at the hands of the man they could have greeted as their saviour...

Or are you such a fool that you may mistake Turks for rabbits, breeding more than 6000 in a mere 40 years ?
The Turks dealt fairly with our former Emperor when they captured him, they dealt fairly with our people when they advanced in Anatolikon... And that is how we repay them...

I will not cry for the Sultan's life nor for any of his soldiers but I'll cry till the end of my days for the people that died in Iconium...


Leaving the benches, Methodios walks to the Asteri benches where Machonios is sitted. He plants himself in front of him and spits on the floor of the Magnaura at the feet of Machonios.

Here... Take this as your reward, Machonios...

Finally, staring dejectedly at Machonios, Methodios adds

And let me tell you what I think of your God-sent dream... These are delusions of a madman... Perhaps one day, God will send me a dream asking me of having your mother raped by a donkey... But will I bring a donkey to your mother's house ? I think not... Though it may bring down on me God's wrath... That is the saddest excuse for your crimes you could offer...

Lastly, your enemy do not fear you, they hate you... It will be pure blind luck if their religious leaders do not call for a Holy War against us, to eradicate us before we eradicate them for that is what you are doing... The Turks could have been brought into the Light, they could have learnt to live under our rule... If we continue with your policy of exterminating the cities we conquer, we will perhaps be masters of the known world, but it will be a sad and empty world...

Methodios walks back to his bench, not sparing one look towards Machonios.

[Kagemusha]

Kantakouzinos addresses the senate:

"First i would like to apologise to my Caesar, for what i may have done here in Senate, your word is my law, but surely i was only defending my honour. Since when have righteous men have had to stand insults from others?"

"Second i agree with Apionnas Vringas and his sentiment. War is cruel and people get killed, those who want to wage limited war are in danger of being hypocrites. Once again, how it differs, killing one or killing a thousand? Hupatios has broken the law, but his crimes stop there, your moral uproar is uncalled for specially now that he has told you that he only killed Muslims. He would be sentenced according to our laws, but it should be also be counted for him that he conquered our enemies capital, killed their leader and drove their kingdom to chaos by that."

[Ferret]

Methodios stands up, glaring at Machonios.

I would have been first to celebrate you, had you claimed the city with no or few losses of lives on either side... War is grusesome, that I know at first hand but even so, that does not mean we must become beasts and conduct ourselves without reserve or mercy...

I'd like to remind our "colleague" that Iconium was still a Byzantine city, less than fourty years ago... (OOC : Manzikert dates back to 1071)... So most of those 6000 men and women you killed were subjected to our rule until then... Do you think they had a choice when the Turks invaded ? No, they had none... They bowed like the reed in the wind, if only to survive... And what kept them going was the hope that one day our Empire would recover to come and save them... And now, at the moment of their liberation, they are cast into the fires of Hell at the hands of the man they could have greeted as their saviour...

Or are you such a fool that you may mistake Turks for rabbits, breeding more than 6000 in a mere 40 years ?
The Turks dealt fairly with our former Emperor when they captured him, they dealt fairly with our people when they advanced in Anatolikon... And that is how we repay them...

If you would kindly check the records the Turks treated the city the same way I did when they captured it, the Romans living there either ran to nearby towns or villages or were killed. The population I killed were all Turks, moved in from other Turkish lands, if you could think beyond the end of your prick you would understand that there is more to life than "breeding". It was their capital, cities of that importance grow, and grow quickly.


I will not cry for the Sultan's life nor for any of his soldiers but I'll cry till the end of my days for the people that died in Iconium...


Leaving the benches, Methodios walks to the Asteri benches where Machonios is sitted. He plants himself in front of him and spits on the floor of the Magnaura at the feet of Machonios.

Here... Take this as your reward, Machonios...

Finally, staring dejectedly at Machonios, Methodios adds

And let me tell you what I think of your God-sent dream... These are delusions of a madman... Perhaps one day, God will send me a dream asking me of having your mother raped by a donkey... But will I bring a donkey to your mother's house ? I think not... Though it may bring down on me God's wrath... That is the saddest excuse for your crimes you could offer...

Lastly, your enemy do not fear you, they hate you... It will be pure blind luck if their religious leaders do not call for a Holy War against us, to eradicate us before we eradicate them for that is what you are doing... The Turks could have been brought into the Light, they could have learnt to live under our rule... If we continue with your policy of exterminating the cities we conquer, we will perhaps be masters of the known world, but it will be a sad and empty world...

Methodios walks back to his bench, not sparing one look towards Machonios.

Ah yes, you know all about the Turks don't you, spent so long in Turkey haven't you. Spent so long with the ex-Sultan discussing what things would excuse a Jihad haven't you. Go back north and run away from rebels again, you know nothing of this matter. Also it appears you may have had an accident when you came near me, I understand I may frighten some people but not enough for them to wet themselves surely?

As for the dream, who are we to question God's motives? I know it was from him, your opinion doesn't change that.

[_Tristan_]

Looking at Kantakouzinos

So we should congratulate Machonios because he tells us he only killed Muslims... I'd like to know how Machonios can tell a Muslim at first glance from one of our citizen.

And what of Her Highness' testimony ? Frankly, if you ask me, I would put much more trust in her words than in those of a savage beast disguised as a Byzantine senator...

As for defending your honour, you'd be better advised to try and do it with words rather than at swordpoint...

[Ferret]

Would you like to hear Zigavinos' version of the events? He was present at the battle and I have had no contact with him since, he is unbiased.

[Andres]

Hypatios Machonios, are you loyal to the Basileus? Do you respect this legislative body, the Magnaura, and all it stands for?

[00jebus]

As for the dream, who are we to question God's motives? I know it was from him, your opinion doesn't change that.




I wish to know the Church's position on this dream, it could clear alot up.

[_Tristan_]

Hearing Machonios' answer, Methodios emits a short laugh.

You better check you own records and you'll see how the Turks really dealt with Emperor Romanus and how they dealt with ouor prisoners of war... From what I know of the Turks, for I was in Turkey at Manzikert when you were still at your mother's breast (after she was raped by a donkey, this sotto voce) so I know of them at first hand...

Iconium was already a thriving city when we lost it to the Turks and that is why they elected to make it their capital, not the other way round... I maintain that most of its citizens were people of our blood and Christians to boot.

So leave my prick alone for it seems I can use it better than you can, as the birth of my daughter can bear testimony... And if can confuse spit with sperm than I should recommend you visit some of the seedier districts of this city, you might learn a thing or two...

So if it was truly a God-sent dream, who are we to oppose you, is that your reasoning, Machonios ? Why am I not struck down by the fires of Heaven right this instant for simply questioning your actions and the reasons behind them ?

[_Tristan_]

Would you like to hear Zigavinos' version of the events? He was present at the battle and I have had no contact with him since, he is unbiased.

You mean one of your own vassal is unbiased ? Surely, you can do better...

[Kagemusha]

"Methodius, when you order a sack of city instead of exterminating it, will you feel like saint, like you are trying to be one here. People are killed when soldiers sack. Killed, mutilated, beaten and raped. Still though you see extermination as despicable act. Or should we end sacking cities also? So our soldiers would not get their fare share of loot. Im sure with this kind of hypocrite policies soon we should just give up fighting all together and become martyrs the bunch of us."

[Ramses II CP]

OOC: As an OOC matter EF the percentage of the population which was Christian makes it impossible for you not to have killed some of them. If every remaining man, woman, and child is a Christian (Which is certainly not what the game reflects as the percentage has not changed) then you still killed over 1500 Christians. This has already been pointed out above, so you might want to, err, revise your comments. :laugh4:

[_Tristan_]

I'm no hypocrite...

Like I said, war is a gruesome affair and sometimes requires of us to do acts that probity would forbid.

If you ask me, I would very much have preferred to see Iconium sacked than exterminated. Out of every 100 citizens, 45 were formerly citizens of the Empire and good christians, though living under a foreign rule. That means that among the 6000 dead at Iconium lies about 2700 Christians.

I would have no qualms had Machonios sacked the city, seizing all Muslims properties and redistributing it to our citizens so that our treasury filled.

I would even have prevented our coffers being empty as stated by the Caesar and Megas, killing people prevents them from telling where they stashed their gold...

Killing for the sake of it or on some self-appointed divine mandate is pointless and dangerous...

[Ferret]

You mean one of your own vassal is unbiased ? Surely, you can do better...

Did not Kosmas express the same opinion as many of you here? And no I was not calling it sperm, again you can only think of those things, I was referring to when you wet yourself.

You also do understand that I am only one year younger than you? If I was at my mothers teat then you were still unable to walk, let alone fight a battle. In fact you are 39 now, it is 1110, the battle of Manzikert was in 1071. That is the year you were born, are you claiming to have been born on the battlefield? Whatever the case, in my lifetime you have not been to Turkey and cannot know how the new Turkish Sultan thinks.

[Andres]

Savvas stands up and walks towards Hypatios.

It seems like I will have to repeat my question.

Dear Hypatios Machonios, are you loyal to the Basileus? Do you respect this legislative body, the Magnaura, and all it stands for?

[AussieGiant]

Holding a rather sardonic gaze, Apionnas interrupts the back and forth of the discussion.

Senator Hypatios,

Rather than engaging in the semantics of what race, religion or creed of people were killed, what is your specific defence against the charge of disobeying a law created by this assembly?

[_Tristan_]

(OOC : there is a time conundrum here... Methodios from how I considered it was 19 at the time of Manzikert... Sorry if I got Machonios age wrong, though... I saw him as one of the youngest Senators...)

I never said I knew how or what the Turkish Sultan thinks but I tried to warn about what measures the Sultan's religious advisors may preach against us... We killed this man's relative so I think I might not be too far from the truth when I say that those preachings won't be falling on deaf ears...

And anyway, I would prefer you to admit that you gave no quarters to the citizens of Iconium, whatever their origins and whatever the creed as all accounts show...

It would also be fine if you would answer the questions of Senators Ek Militou and Vringas...

[Ferret]

Savvas stands up and walks towards Hypatios.

It seems like I will have to repeat my question.

Dear Hypatios Machonios, are you loyal to the Basileus? Do you respect this legislative body, the Magnaura, and all it stands for?

Yes, yes and yes. If I didn't then I wouldn't have assaulted Iconium in the first place. I had no personal wish to capture the place.


Senator Hypatios,

Rather than engaging in the semantics of what race, religion or creed of people were killed, what is your specific defence against the charge of disobeying a law created by this assembly?

I believe I have already made that clear:

"Now I understand I may have broken a law during the capture but I have my reasons for that as well. Was not the edict invented to direct or restrict the current Chancellor, to give all senators a say in how the Megas deals with matters of state? Yet know we pass edicts directing the personal choices that generals have always had, since the founding of Rome! And now I hear I am to be punished for doing what I think, even know, is better for the Empire? Is it not better to have one decisive battle, allowing loyal Roman citizens to inhabit our towns than to have Turks and Infidel living there, who will rise against us at any and all conceivable opportunities?"


I never said I knew how or what the Turkish Sultan thinks but I tried to warn about what measures the Sultan's religious advisors may preach against us... We killed this man's relative so I think I might not be too far from the truth when I say that those preachings won't be falling on deaf ears...

And anyway, I would prefer you to admit that you gave no quarters to the citizens of Iconium, whatever their origins and whatever the creed as all accounts show...

It would also be fine if you would answer the questions of Senators Ek Militou and Vringas...

I gave my men orders to only kill Infidel, if they chose to kill men of their own faith that is not my fault, the orders I gave were clear.

I know my actions are very questionable, but I have done what I think is right and what God showed me to do. I shall await the opinions of Kalamateros and the Emperor and accept them without argument.

[_Tristan_]

Hearing Machonios' renewed assessment of Edicts, Methodios rises.

So to you an Edict is just an obstacle to what the Megas Logothetes can or cannot do... That is not showing proper respect for the work of this assembly...

An Edict is a sacrosanct embodiment of the will of the people of this Empire, requested by the will of our Emperor to express themselves through our voices.

In an unselfish act and to prevent us from ever committing the errors of our past, the Basileos in his wisdom has seen fit to allow us, as representatives of the many provinces of the Empire, to choose the broad lines of how we deem the Empire should be led.

This is what you trampled, Machonios, not a simple law, but the will of the Empire embodied by this assembly.

[Ferret]

Yes and I accept any punsihment for the breaking of that edict, I merely ask that the moral side be left out, that is irrelevant, and that the judge take into consideration what I have done to benefit the empire. Could someone also explain to me how my actions at Iconium hindered the empire in any way?

[Andres]

And now I hear I am to be punished for doing what I think, even know, is better for the Empire?

Tell me, Hypatios, if we could all at any given time just do what we "think" is best for the Empire, then what is the point of passing laws in the Magnaura?

I will go a step further: if all generals could simply do as they see fit, then we wouldn't need a Magnaura anymore, nor a Basileus, would we? Because, if every general can do what he wants, then why would we still have to respond to a higher authority?

Hypatios, if you say that a general can do what he "thinks" is best for the Empire, regardless of the laws imposed on him by the legislative body and the Basileus of said empire, then you are speaking words of treason!

[Dafuge]

It will take a long time for Iconium to grow to such a size as to be an asset to the Empire. Also any recruiting done there will hinder even more time the settlement will grow.

I would also like to hear what the Patriarch says of this matter.

[_Tristan_]

Nodding towards Savvas

I must agree with Savvas ek Militou : your words reek of treason, Machonios...

So, stop trying to defend the undefendable before you condemn yourself to a punishment much harsher than what you already should incur.

[AussieGiant]

Shaking his head slowly Apionnas continues in a flat dead tone of voice.

So you are admitting here, in this chamber that you have no control over your own troops and in fact the order you gave was to exterminate the population but not Christians?

As for your follow up comment then I entirely agree with you. There is no moral side of breaking an edict Senator Machonios. You admit breaking law, therefore you should be assessed as to premeditated dereliction of duty. What benefit, or hindrance, your actions have caused the Empire, are of absolutely no relevance to how the discipline should be made.

Pausing to smile ruefully Apionnas chuckles.

I'd suggest you get an advocate immediately my Lord. Your words here, that I must warn you are being transcribed, are making this situation very cut and dry.

[Ferret]

It will take a long time for Iconium to grow to such a size as to be an asset to the Empire. Also any recruiting done there will hinder even more time the settlement will grow.

What concern is this of yours? The city is now an Asteri settlement, besides that is not the point of the debate, I am to be judged for breaking a law, not for hindering the growth of a settlement.

[_Tristan_]

Methodios rises, a smile playing upon his face.

Before being an Asteri settlement, Iconium belongs to the Empire as a whole... That's some more seditious words from Senator Machonios...

Senator ek Amarinthou is right to question the benefit of your actions...

[Andres]

What concern is this of yours? The city is now an Asteri settlement, besides that is not the point of the debate, I am to be judged for breaking a law, not for hindering the growth of a settlement.

So you admit that you have broken the law yet you say that you shouldn't be punished for it because at the time of the breaking of the law, you did what you "thaught" to be the best for the Empire?

The law has to be obeyed at any given time, Senator! Your display of disrespect towards the law, the Magnaura and the Basileus is outrageous!

Basileus, if this man will be put on trial, then I volunteer to act as your prosecutor.

[Dafuge]

What concern is this of yours? The city is now an Asteri settlement, besides that is not the point of the debate, I am to be judged for breaking a law, not for hindering the growth of a settlement.

What concern is it of mine? Well first of all before being a settlement of a house it is in the Empire, and if I am not mistaken we are all here for the good of the Empire. Didn't you also ask how you hindered the Empire, well that is how.

[Privateerkev]

Makedonios has been watching the proceedings while rubbing his sinuses with his thumb and forefinger. It is clear he is not happy with what he has seen.

Enough!

I refuse to hear anymore excuses for as why the extermination of innocent people is irrelevant or just the cost of war. It is not the cost of war! It is a distinct choice someone makes! This man...

Points at Hypatios.

Ordered his army to butcher thousands of people. And we're going to argue on the fine legal point of law?!? Have we totally lost our way? What ever happened to compassion? To what is right?

Most of you disgust me. Especially the Emperor's lapdog who was the Caliph's lapdog. Presenting himself to us now as some sort of voice of reason and expert on international affairs. What has Apionnas done to deserve ANY respect from this body? All he has done in his entire political career is follow our Emperor around like a lost puppy! And then he has the audacity to attempt to whitewash thousands of deaths as if they are nothing but a legal inconvenience! For all we know this man is a spy for the Caliph attempting to subvert our process.

Now start talking about these victims as people. They were human beings. With the same hopes, fears, and dreams we all have. And they deserved better than to be 'saved' by Hypatios. And their memory deserves better than to have us nitpick on legalities. The legalities have never been more clear. The Senate passed an Edict. A man violated an Edict. I see no reason at all to discuss legalities since they are so cut and dry.

If people want to make a religious argument for why Hypatios did what they did, then the Patriarch's representative seems like the right person to ask, now that he has been let back in the chambers. I find it funny that once he was thrown out, people attempted to use God as their excuse. Pathetic. Hypatios, who I won't even honor by addressing directly, is nothing but pathetic. This man needs to be exiled to a inner city garrison and kept from having an army command. And he definitely needs to be prevented from ever leading an assault ever again.

[_Tristan_]

Nodding at Makedonios' words, Methodios adresses once again the assembly.


This man (Hypatios) needs to be exiled to a inner city garrison and kept from having an army command. And he definitely needs to be prevented from ever leading an assault ever again.

And that is the single most lenient punishment this man should receive for the grave lack of respect he showed for this assembly and for killing so many poor souls...

[Privateerkev]

Well, killing Hypatios will not bring those people back. He needs to be kept where he can't hurt anyone.

[Dafuge]

I agree, killing him would make us all hypocrites.

[_Tristan_]

I'm not advocating killing him... There has been enough of that already... But striping him of his titles and lands and sending him to one of the most remote part of our Empire would be a more befitting end...

The man has both a vicious and a seditious streak in him, so like a stray dog we should put him in chains and feed him the scraps from our table...

If we killed him, he would win for we would have stooped as low as him... No... Better to let him live to forever and remember what he had and what he lost... And who knows ? Maybe one day he will atone for his sins and errors of judgment...

[AussieGiant]

A curious brow is raised as Makedonios makes his comments towards Apionnas.

I'm not sure what you are trying to attempt in your last comments Lord Makedonios.

Are we in agreement and you are simply taking the opportunity to slight me, or do you truly have issues with what I am and what I have said in this chamber?

The law must be upheld, that is the precise point that must be dealt with here. Compassion, while admirable is not going to make much difference to what has passed and what the future may bring.

Religion is but a facade to mask unacceptable behaviour.

Unfortunately Senator Machonios has simply confirmed to the outside world that we are no better than them and that our goals and morals are no more enlightened than Catholic or Muslim. His tone here has shown no sign of remorse or regret and this is from a man who is identified as one of us and who is mean to be an Orthodox Christian.

I would suggest the crusade is delayed formally by the Patriarch. This is no longer an opportune time to pursue a religious war if we are to be entirely objective about the matter.

As he sits Apionnas makes a final comment.

I also find references to me being a lapdog or spy as entirely unconstructive in the current situation Lord Makedonios. Perhaps you could refrain from engaging in slander in future.

[Privateerkev]

Makedonios gives a short laugh.

"Religion is but a facade to mask unacceptable behaviour."

Really? I guess the baptism did not stick...

And you are wrong about compassion. Compassion is what drives us. It is what makes our Empire better. And it makes us worthy of having an Empire. We should rule the known world because we know what is best. Because we are righteous and good.

Hypatios threatens all of that.

As for calling you names, I apologize. While 6000 deaths don't seem to matter very much to you, they matter a whole lot to me. And it has gotten me rather agitated. But that is no excuse for my behavior and I will attempt to show more restraint. Makedonios bows his head respectfully.

He then turns to the chamber.

Hypatios should be exiled. Sit him on his island and take the ships away. Or send him to Nicosia where I guarantee he will have nothing at all to do. Or bring him to the Levant where I will let him govern a settlement. He won't be lord of the province of course but maybe time in the Holy Land will do him some good. It is said that it is the land where you come to gain forgiveness.

Because forgiveness is just what this man needs. He needs the chance to earn forgiveness from the Lord while he is simultaneously prevented from hurting others.

[Ferret]

You have no say in my punishment Makedonios, nor can I be bothered to argue with pious fools like you. As I sad before I shall wait for the decisions of the Emperor and my Lord, Kalamateros and accept them. And trust me I could cause a whole lot of trouble on Nicosia...

[_Tristan_]

Hearing Machonios' words, Methodios whispers.

Surely not in some dungeon cell...

[AussieGiant]

Shaking his head slightly.

Thank you for your apology Lord Makedonios. I must admit I can seem somewhat callous towards death and destruction. It is simply a product of my upbringing.

Death is appalling, I agree, but I've found very little use for compassion when it has come time to ensure victory and success in conflict.

Your ideals are commendable my Lord, but I simply do not see us as any better than any other nation or religion. I suppose that is another product of my upbringing. We are fallible, just like anyone else, we need to deal with this situation as fast and as effectively as possible. We must also accept how we now look to other nations we are dealing with.

As for questioning my baptism, then you will have to speak with the Baselius and the Patriarch himself as they were both present at the time.

Pausing again before taking his seat.

It seems you are still irritated my lord. Perhaps a bath and some music would help. I find that make a difference for me.

[Privateerkev]

Ignoring Hypatios completely, Makedonios speaks to Apionnas.

My comments towards you baptism were only in regards to your comments about religion being a facade. Perhaps it is our cultural difference but I have a hard time hearing that.

As for being irritated, I appreciate your advice but I don't think my mood will improve until someone here is sentenced for his terrible crimes. And even then, I don't think I will be quite the same after being alive and part of this Empire at a time of such evil.

[AussieGiant]

Bowing his head towards Makedonios.

Indeed my Lord. I agree with you on those points entirely.

[OverKnight]

Aleksios arches an eyebrow as he looks at Makedonios. He speaks quietly.

I do not see how uninvited and unfounded insults aimed at Senator Vringas have anything to do with Iconium, Senator. Your righteous indignation seems to be spilling over into other matters.

The Basileus speaks more loudly.

The issue before us is this: Senator Machonos blatantly and with fore thought violated an Edict of the Senate even before the ink had dried on the legislation.

This is a very serious breach. Ideally, the head of the Asteri, Senator Ioannis Kalameteros, will examine the record, judge his subject's actions and punish him; A loss of command for some years, or a demotion in rank would be in order. However, if the Asteri cannot resolve this internally and in an expeditious manner, or if I do not feel the punishment fits the crime, I will call an Emergency Session and the matter will be opened to the entire Senate. Judging by the rhetoric I have heard, I doubt Senator Machonos would want this to occur.

Aleksios looks around the Magnaura.

Let me remind everyone that I will keep peace in this Chamber. Please watch what you say here.

[Andres]

Savvas stands up, a jovial smile on his face.

Well, well, well, dear Makedonios, dear Apionas. Are you going to slit each others' throats and drink each others' blood?

It is as if the evil of that man (looks at Hypatios) is getting his grip on all of us. Please gentlemen, don't get carried away too much by your emotions. We are Romans and civilised men.

Savvas turns to his scribe.

Stop writing good man. Give Makedonios and Aponias a goblet of wine.

Savvas stands up, looks at Apionas and Makedonis, and raises his goblet:

To the Magnaura and to a serene debate.

Savvas sips from his wine and puts it back on his desk. He looks at his scribe and gives him a gentle slap on his shoulder.

Now you can write again.

Savvas looks at Hypathios.

So, dear Hypatios, you claim that you do respect the Magnaura and what it stands for. I take it that you do you agree with me that a man who disrespects the Magnaura and the Basileus has to be considered a traitor?

After he hears the words of the Emperor, Savvas sits down again.
I fully trust the wisdom of the esteemed members of House Asteri and I'm sure they will not disappoint their colleagues nor the Basileus.

OOC: was writing this at the moment OK posted.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

After long time being quiet Efstathios raises and turns to Basileus..

I have been thinking and I found that I behaved .. like some peasant..
I apologize in front of Princess Anna!
I don't know what came over me.
Must be the Crusade and all those preparations for it finally getting me.
I haven't slept properly for awhile now and I'm feeling myself a bit tired.
Again.. I apologize and I hope you forgive me.

Efstathios bows to Basileus and princess Anna..

[AussieGiant]

A rather droll expression and a raised brow greets the words of Senator Savvas. His dead flat tone a contrast with his words

Senator Savvas,

I would hardly call my verbal exchange with Lord Makedonios anything but bland from my side. Slitting throats and drinking blood is best left to the Nosferatu. Perhaps my tone is somewhat emotive, but I would not describe my reactions as emotional.

Taking a seat he finishes on an equally monotone voice.

I don't drink Senator Savvas, but thank you for the offer.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

The moment Efstathios heard mentioning of wine his eyes filled with joy ...

Eeem.. Since Makedonios and apparently Apionas don't drink then .. eem .. perhaps one of those goblets could be given to me?

I never say no to a good wine!

Efstathios smiles and looks towards Savvas..

[Privateerkev]

Makedonios stands up and bows to the Emperor.

I stand rebuked Your Highness but righteous indignation is exactly what is called for in this situation and we could use more of it in these hallowed chambers. I can not be expected to stand by as the cold-blooded murder of innocents is described as coolly as an accountant explains a balance sheet. I admit my words were ill-chosen, and I have apologized, but I believe I had every right to take Apionnas to task for what he said.

Turning to Savvas, Makedonios motions for an aid to take the goblet away and give it to Efstathios. He then picks up his glass of water.

I appreciate the gesture Savvas but I don't drink wine. I however will not deny you the toast.

To the Magnaura and to hopefully a slightly more serene debate.

Makedonios raises the glass to Savvas, takes a good gulp, and sits down.

[Andres]

Cheers, Makedonios, and cheers Efstathios ~:cheers:

Savvas drinks. After a few moments, he stares at the empty goblet of wine.

"Hmmm," he says softly to himself, "that's my third I suppose. Oh, what the heck."

Savvas fills his goblet again and sips from the wine.

Accountants, Makedonios? You mean those guys who tell you that you can become richer by spending more money? Preferably on them?

Savvas laughs and empties his goblet.

Excuse me for this interruption, gentlemen. Please continue the debate.

Savvas takes the glass of water from his scribe.

[ULC]

Iakovos enters and finds himself a seat. He seems content to listen for now, only occasionally giving Hypatios a hard stare.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Seeing that things have calmed down Efstathios raises and leaves the Magnaura.

[GeneralHankerchief]

*The Patriarchal Representative walks into the Magnaura, looking at the guards questioningly. They let him pass, evidently because the most recent session is over. Taking his seat and reviewing the transcripts, he smirks.*

His Eminence and the Church do have an opinion on this matter, but, I think, considering the manner of my last exit from this building, I'm not sure if the Basileus would be able to handle such a radical opinion coming from such a fringe voice right away. Working my way back into people's good graces would be better.

Therefore: Basileus, do I have your permission to comment on the weather?

[AussieGiant]

Passing by the chamber doors the Saracen looking officer comments dryly.

I'm sure that is entirely feasible your Grace.

[ULC]

Iakovos drums his fingers impatiently.

"Are we, or are we not, going to continue with the proceedings?"

[GeneralHankerchief]

Patriarchal Representative:

In all seriousness, my master and I would like to know how many priests were sent to the city ahead of time in an effort to convert the populace to Orthodoxy, or, barring that, if there were any priests in the general area. A response from the Caesar is preferred, but any man who has the answer will be appreciated if they give it.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Efstathios's scribe looks some papers in front of him and then raises..

Our records are showing that there were no priest recruited and there were no priest sent to Egypt!

Scribe sits down to his seat and starts working with his papers once again..

[GeneralHankerchief]

Patriarchal Representative:

Right, I was afraid of that.

*Motioning for one of his messengers, the Representative quickly jots down some words and presses the paper into the messenger's hand. He watches as the messenger departs, in the direction of the Offices of the Patriarch.*

[Privateerkev]

Makedonios looks at the Patriarchal Representative.

First off, I'd like to welcome you back to the proceedings. As you can see from the transcripts, many men have been invoking God's will in here and it is nice to have someone who can speak with some authority on such matters.

Second the Edict which would have mandated that priests be sent to Egypt, ironically proposed by Hypatios, failed. The voting is a matter of public record so there is no secret as to who was against sending priests to Egypt.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Patriarchal Representative:

*snatching a paper back from the messenger and reading it twice before speaking:*

Right, religiously, the man is on very thin ice. In a time when His Eminence has called a Crusade on the Mohammedan heretics because of (and I now invoke his words) "the Caliph's total disregard for... human life" it would not do well to commit the very atrocity we are punishing others for. In reading over the Magnaura transcripts it appears that Senator Machonios has zero regret for what he has done; zero remorse. However, His Eminence has not found the man to be completely lacking in faith, considering the complimentary Crusade Edict he proposed that the Grandmaster has so kindly pointed out.

However, what incenses myself and my master at the moment is not the lack of priests being sent to Egypt (which, interestingly enough, the Basileus did not see fit to support), but to Anatolia. His Eminence, in his wisdom, has written many times of the need to first convert the populace before any military action is to be undertaken. Were his suggestions followed, then there would have been no need to take such radical measures after conquering the city in question. I sincerely hope that in the next Magnaura Session, most Senators will demonstrate the same capacity for hindsight and making sure the same mistake is not made twice that my master has shown for foresight.

His Eminence is, if nothing else, a practical man, especially in these times of little faith. He is doing his very best to keep his field of expertise separate from matters of politics, despite what some overly paranoid members of this body assert. He is little concerned with Hypatios Machonios's political punishment, but there are religious undertones to this matter as well, unfortunately.

In short, His Eminence Nicholas III requests that Hypatios Machonios repent his sins, most notably the extermination of Iconium. He may do so in any matter he chooses, including writing, so long as it is witnessed by a representative of the Office of the Patriarch. As for the political consequences, do as you wish. I am but a liaison.

[deguerra]

During a brief lull in the general proceedings, the door to the Senate opens quietly and Strator Kalameteros enters the room. Without a look to his side he walks slowly but purposefully to the middle of the Senate floor and stands, pausing for dramatic effect and complete silence. When he is sure he has the Senate's undivided attention, he begins to speak in a quiet but firm voice.

I stand before you today a broken man. Broken, because those who I trusted and those who I considered friends have misused the friendship and trust placed in them. Broken, because I cannot and will not disavow myself of the indiscriminate, unprovoked and unacceptable butchery and slaughter that occurred in the fine city of Iconium, carried out by an army under my command. Broken, because I am complicit in the murder of over six thousand men, women and children.

Hypatios Machonios, who stands before you to defend the indefensible is the reason I stand broken.

He has made my House, House Asteri, look ridiculous to the Basileos and to the public of the Empire, giving Strator Methodios Tagaris the dubious right to speak of dangerous trends in our House.

He has disobeyed orders on how to lead the armies of this House. He has violated a principle expressed by this Senate and a principle that I hold dear.

He has forced me to accept responsibility for actions of which I had no knowledge or control and forced me to sleep at night with the thought that had I been more wary, I could have saved six thousand lives.

Finally, he has undermined me personally by associating with an organisation that has sought the active destruction of the Empire of Rome and this Senate, its governing body and an organisation that has threatened my dear wife, the Basileos' daughter, myself and our children. And he himself has repeatedly insulted and threatened my wife when she bravely confronted him about his actions.

I cannot and will not work with a man whom I cannot trust and who I do not respect. I refuse to have the House I lead associate with that man.

I therefore ask, publicly, that Markianos Ameplas refuse Hypatios Machonios' oath of loyalty and that Zigavinos Vasilakios revoke his oath of loyalty to him.

That is my judgment, it is the whole of my judgment and it is final.

The only other thing I ask is that Hypatios Machonios stands question and answer to this Senate on the topic of this organisation I mentioned earlier.

I believe this organisation to be a credible threat to the internal security of the Empire and to the safety of the Empire's representatives, and I would like to launch an official Senate inquiry into its sources, its aims and how it can be stopped.

[Privateerkev]

*edit*

OOC: nothing to see here.

I posted something asking where Kalameteros was not knowing that deguerra was posting at that moment. :laugh4:

[deguerra]

spoke too soon, sucker :clown:

[ULC]

Iakovos stands up.

"The Grandmaster and I too have had some experience with this..."Organization"...as well. We know of at least one dissenting member, but she is believed to be lost at Iconium. May I ask this august body to go to Iconium and search her out, to see if she still lives?"

[Privateerkev]

Without letting his expression show emotion, Makedonios quietly writes a note and passes it to Iakovos.

[deguerra]

Ioannis raises an eyebrow at Iakovos' words and gets up

My dear Iakovos, I think it best you remain here should this inquiry take place for reasons we both know quite well. I would prefer, if anyone, a more neutral party going to Iconium. Which is still an Asteri city, or what is left of it.

But if you let me know whom to look out for, I am sure my men can find her, if she is still alive. Those of my men I can trust anyway.

[ULC]

Iakovos stares at Ioannis

"Excuse me? I threatened Hypatios with death, and you think it best I stay here for the inquiry for "reasons we both know" ? Please, speak more plainly. If you think I would take Iconium for the Order, then I would prefer that you say so and not imply anything about my honor."

[Privateerkev]

Makedonios raised an eyebrow at Iakovos's comments. He speaks to him quietly.

I highly doubt that was what Kalameteros meant. And no one was impugned your honor.

[deguerra]

I implied nothing about your honour, and would never suggest that the Order would seek to take settlements belonging to Asteri.

What I speak of is the fact that your brother, Aleksander, was identified to me as a member of the very organisation I seek to inquire into.

As such, you yourself can hardly be considered a neutral party for purposes of this investigation, and I would prefer it if you remained here.

The fact that you threatened Strator Hypatios shows nothing other than your cloudy judgment with regards to making threats to men who are members of the Senate of the Roman Empire.

Now, if you have information regarding the whereabouts of someone vital to this inquiry, I would suggest you divulge them to the Senate or at the very least be silent if you choose to keep us in the dark.

[ULC]

Iakovos is shocked at Iaonnis's words, and almost at a loss for his own.

"Hard...hardly neutral? I assure you, at this point, I would bring my own brother to justice for the atrocities that have been committed in the name of this Organization."

EDIT: :daisy: deg! Your to fast for us :clown:

[OverKnight]

Aleksios nods at Ioannis Kalameteros.

I accept the judgement of Senator Kalameteros concerning Hypatios Machonios. Being expelled from the Asteri seems a fitting punishment for his violation of an Edict and indiscriminate slaughter.

I appreaciate the sacrifice that my son-in-law has made, and consider this matter closed.

Aleksios pauses and speaks again.

As for the matter of the "Organization". . .

The Basileus sighs.

I can't make heads or tails of their motivations or goals. All I know is that they must be the worse "Secret Society" in all of history, as we are discussing them in the open and they only seem to be good at killing their own members. Most likely they are a bunch of amatuers who dress in black cloaks and plot in dark corners to make themselves feel important, though they accomplish little.

I can't understand the appeal myself.

[deguerra]

Ioannis nods his head in appreciation at the comments of the Basileos

Neither can I, sire, but the appeal seems to be there. Sadly, even an amateur with a knife can be dangerous.

As for you, Iakovos, I do not wish to doubt your sincerity, but you must admit you hardly seem like the ideal neutral party.

Now will we hear of your information or not?

[ULC]

Iakovos stands firm.

"All I know is what the woman told me, and that was that at the time of her assignment to watch over the Grandmaster, the Organization was going through internal trouble and that for security reasons for Organization saw the Grandmaster as the most receptive candidate, and one other which contact had been made a few years prior."

[Privateerkev]

Makedonios nods.

I fear few of us know much of this group. I have personally been contacted by someone who claimed to work for them. She is the same one that is now lost somewhere in Iconium. I've also been attacked by these people, or at least a faction of this group. And I know this group has caused the Princess and her family no end of trouble.

Beyond that, I fear I know little. But it is clear that, amateurs or not, at least some of them are quite insistent in working against us.

[deguerra]

A messenger arrives, giving Ioannis a note. He reads it and gets up to speak.

I have been notified of the whereabouts of the woman of whom Iakovos speaks in Iconium. I have dispatched men to bring her before this body with utmost urgency.

Strators, we will get to the bottom of this organisation, but I ask that anyone who knows any more of these matters speak up now. I for myself assure that I will seek no action against anyone who tells us of any contact or association with these men they may have had in the past.

[Privateerkev]

Makedonios gets up and address Ioannis.

I've already sent my gratitude to you through a letter but I will publicly thank you for your assistance with this matter.

He turns to address the Senate.

I would like to talk about Hypatios again. I know His Highness has declared the matter of Hypatios's punishment to be closed. Makedonios gives a nod to the Emperor.

But this is more the offer of an opportunity. And I didn't want to give it in a letter because I wanted this matter out in the open.

I officially invite Hypatios to come to the Holy Land and swear an oath to me. The Levant has always been considered the place where people come to earn forgiveness. And I believe it could serve this purpose for Hypatios if he so chose.

Rest assured, he would not govern a settlement or command an army for quite some time. He would simply serve in my army where I would keep an eye on him.

For this offer to be valid, I will require two things from Comes Hypatios and they are not negotiable.

1.) He will be required to do what His Eminence has asked him to do.

2.) He will be required to hand over Rhodes to Kalameteros.

If both of these requirements are met, then Hypatios is welcome to come to the Levant if he is truly serious about saving his soul. This is the first time one of our fellow nobles has 'erred' so badly. And while his actions were reprehensible, our Faith does speak of redemption. Since he has turned over custody of the woman he had captured, I do believe redemption is possible.

[Ferret]

I thank you for the offer Makedonios but I will not accept it, Rhodes is too important to me for that. I have however offered myself as a servant to the Patriarch, to earn forgiveness for my sins by doing God's work, that is, if the Patriarch believes I have sinned.

And just to be clear, I never captured that woman, the organisation did and gave her to me. I treated her fairly and asked questions on the organisation but she knew little, or wouldn't tell me much anyway. She was never treated as a prisoner and was free to do as she pleased. I may not give mercy to the infidel and enemies of our state but I do care for our citizens.

[Privateerkev]

For the first time in these whole proceedings, Makedonios addresses Hypatios directly.

I'm not sure how penance will come about without sacrifice but so be it. I wish you luck in seeking it and I will pray for you.

As to the woman, I am glad to hear it. My men had intercepted a letter meant for Iakovos that claimed you made the woman available to your whole army for 'recreational' purposes. I am happy to hear their claims were wrong.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Efstathios's scribe keeps writing and writing... sometimes he mumbles something and disturbes people near him with that but most of the time he writes everything that has been said ..

[GeneralHankerchief]

Patriarchal Representative:

For the record, I confirm what Hypatios Machonios has said about seeking penance. His Eminence is currently in the process of determining where to go next.

[Ignoramus]

Ioannis Komnenos angrily faces the Patriarchal Representative.

His Eminence must surely be uniformed. There are currently 9 priest and 1 bishop in Anatolia. Surely His Eminence must have received incorrect reports.

Ioannis resumes his seat.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Patriarchal Representative:

And how many of them are in Iconium at this moment? How many of them were in Iconium when it was assaulted? Before it was assaulted? This was a planned assault, was it not?

[Andres]

Makedonios gets up and address Ioannis.

I've already sent my gratitude to you through a letter but I will publicly thank you for your assistance with this matter.

He turns to address the Senate.

I would like to talk about Hypatios again. I know His Highness has declared the matter of Hypatios's punishment to be closed. Makedonios gives a nod to the Emperor.

But this is more the offer of an opportunity. And I didn't want to give it in a letter because I wanted this matter out in the open.

I officially invite Hypatios to come to the Holy Land and swear an oath to me. The Levant has always been considered the place where people come to earn forgiveness. And I believe it could serve this purpose for Hypatios if he so chose.

Rest assured, he would not govern a settlement or command an army for quite some time. He would simply serve in my army where I would keep an eye on him.

For this offer to be valid, I will require two things from Comes Hypatios and they are not negotiable.

1.) He will be required to do what His Eminence has asked him to do.

2.) He will be required to hand over Rhodes to Kalameteros.

If both of these requirements are met, then Hypatios is welcome to come to the Levant if he is truly serious about saving his soul. This is the first time one of our fellow nobles has 'erred' so badly. And while his actions were reprehensible, our Faith does speak of redemption. Since he has turned over custody of the woman he had captured, I do believe redemption is possible.

I see that the vulptures are already there...

Really Makedonios, you give a nice and sincere sounding explanation, but you are just trying to seize an opportunity here.

You disappoint me, but I appreciate that you have shown your real face in this body.

Savvas sits down, muttering something about hypocrite power hungry religious nutjobs.

[Privateerkev]

Makedonios replies with a tired and bored look.

Comes Savvas,

Are you still that sore about being called an idiot?

I ask exactly what opportunity I was trying to sieze. While the point is now quite moot, my offer would have required Hypatios to hand over his province first. And the time when you can claim to discern my motives will be the time when pigs fly.

For someone who pretends to be jovial all the time, you certainly hold long grudges and spend an awful lot of time looking for cheapshots. I see supporting you for Megas did little to change your disposition. You are by far the crankiest jovial person I ever have met.

Goes back to reading reports.

[Andres]

Savvas bursts out in in laughter.

I'll make you a similar offer: give me all your provinces and make all your vassals join House Tagamata and all your sins will be forgiven...

Grandmaster, I apologise for having called a spade a spade.