Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition

[Watchman]

The difference to the xiphos, sica and similar slightly larger swords, spears and the "improved" Iberian shortsword is a mere 0.03, though... hardly very decisive, and in any case the norm for short swords.

[Apázlinemjó]

The difference to the xiphos, sica and similar slightly larger swords, spears and the "improved" Iberian shortsword is a mere 0.03, though... hardly very decisive, and in any case the norm for short swords.

Okay, maybe with that +2 def skill, but still they aren't that good. They are quite vulnerable against cavalry, don't have AP weapons, low lethality, average numbers, average moral, and quite expensive. I like the Galatikoi Kuarothoroi more, they cost more a bit, however they have spears and long swords, and they are better armored too.


type galatian infantry kuarothori
dictionary galatian_infantry_kuarothori ; Galatikoi Kuarothoroi
category infantry
class heavy
voice_type General_1
soldier celtic_infantry_arjos_rycalawre_solduros_kuarothoroi, 40, 0, 1.18
mount_effect elephant -2
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest
formation 0.85, 1.1, 1.8, 2.6, 4, square
stat_health 1, 1
stat_pri 11, 8, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, slashing, sword, 0 ,0.225
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 16, 8, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 0 ,0.13
stat_sec_attr light_spear
stat_pri_armour 12, 10, 4, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 4
stat_ground 0, 0, -1, -1
stat_mental 13, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 2092, 523, 80, 130, 2092
ownership carthage, romans_julii, seleucid, macedon

[Chris1959]

Scorpiones!!! The General killers, never know a single type kill so many FM's outside routes.
Best used when you are the attacker, though useless in woods. Once killed 4 out of 5 KH FM's in a single battle, foot generals are particularly vunerable, in fact they are so deadly I have to ration myself to 5 units in the whole Empire and never more than 1 per Consular army.
Though there is this little guy with his hands behind his back at the rear of the unit who keeps muttering something about "Grande Batteries"......

[Tartaros]

Surprisingly BAD

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/arche-seleukeia/seleukid_mada_asabara.gif

in my sele campaign i wanted to build a native force (to secure and kill rebels) in babylon/media. So i recuite sipri tukul, toxotai syriakoi (both are great!) and Asabaran-i Madaen.

But they are so disapointing... it seems that they don´t have the punch for the hammer tactic (desc. 27), sometime they a in full speed and stop before the enemybacklines. They have no second melee-weapon and the short cav-speer is to bad. they´re also ineffective to kill fleeing enemys. they share a lot of time, by riding along and doing nothing. Compared with the greek hippeis they are surprisingly bad.

[Cute Wolf]

Hey, at least they are still capable to fight well against another cav...

[Ca Putt]

Oh I first thought you meant that the whole class of overhand medium cavalry is bad but then I read
Compared with the greek hippeis they are surprisingly bad. :D Ok that realy is bad, one uint more I'll not recruit :D to be honest I never had a unit of them only the rather similar looking Eastern mediums in my first campaign.

[Tartaros]

ohh, that´s right. the eastern mediums are still out there. they have the exact same stats and costs. hopefully they do a better job.

but i normally prefer the red ferrari´s (seleucid prodromoi).

[Ca Putt]

I didn't say they are good they only do a decent job at intercepting Lance cav and keeping ranged units(when psiloi, they can even kill them :D) ocupied which is rather usefull when playing as KH, I just don'T like it when my flankers are shot upon ^^. As I had experience with hippeis I never realy used them for anything else. maybe sometimes as backup for my prodromoi.

Prodromoi, that's a different story they are definately worth it.

[Tartaros]

i remember a epeiros game where i fight nearly all battle very successfull with hippeis. there was no need for other cavalary.

[Watchman]

Okay, maybe with that +2 def skill, but still they aren't that good. They are quite vulnerable against cavalry, don't have AP weapons, low lethality, average numbers, average moral, and quite expensive. I like the Galatikoi Kuarothoroi more, they cost more a bit, however they have spears and long swords, and they are better armored too.*shrug* Barb units get a minor freebie stat boost, so there's that too.

Note however that the Pontic Thoras are faster, have lower MIC preqs, and IIRC are more widely available. All together, the two really fill a different tactical niche.
in my sele campaign i wanted to build a native force (to secure and kill rebels) in babylon/media. So i recuite sipri tukul, toxotai syriakoi (both are great!) and Asabaran-i Madaen.

But they are so disapointing... it seems that they don´t have the punch for the hammer tactic (desc. 27), sometime they a in full speed and stop before the enemybacklines. They have no second melee-weapon and the short cav-speer is to bad.Wait, what ?
;212
type eastern cavalry mada asabara
dictionary eastern_cavalry_mada_asabara ; Mada Asabara
category cavalry
class light
voice_type General_1
soldier eastern_cavalry_aspet_kappadocian_mediancavalry, 25, 0, 1, 0.3
mount saddle horse light
mount_effect chariot +1
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, very_hardy
formation 1.5, 4, 3, 6, 4, square
stat_health 1, 1
stat_pri 8, 27, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 160 ,0.15
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 7, 15, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, slashing, axe, 0 ,0.165
stat_sec_attr ap
stat_pri_armour 8, 8, 2, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 3
stat_ground 0, 0, -3, -1
stat_mental 11, impetuous, trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 2176, 544, 40, 90, 2176
ownership romans_brutii, romans_julii, egypt, parthia, pontus, sabaWhat part of that looks like "no secondary" to you ? (...and why does that spear still have the old 160 attack delay ? Must've missed it at some point...)
they´re also ineffective to kill fleeing enemys. they share a lot of time, by riding along and doing nothing.That's the usual pathfinding idiocy when chasing routers, not anything to do with the units. Micromanage, grasshopper.

[Apázlinemjó]

*shrug* Barb units get a minor freebie stat boost, so there's that too.

Note however that the Pontic Thoras are faster, have lower MIC preqs, and IIRC are more widely available. All together, the two really fill a different tactical niche.

Well, that's the point. I wanted to use them as flank infantry in my armies, but they failed that role. Anyway how would you use them?

[Irishmafia2020]

I am not sure if anyone has mentioned Dacian Archers, since this thread is almost 20 pages long now - and it is the third such thread on this topic - but I will suggest that Dacian archers are unexpectedly good. I normally don't expect much from archers, they are usually support troops with a few exceptions, but I recently invaded Dacia in a game as Epiros and I found the common rabble of Archers to be an effective enemy. To be fair, I've not used the Dacian Archers as troops myself, but as opponents they were unexpectedly tough. I fought a bridge battle, and eventually my troops destroyed the enemies heavy infantry, and I readied my cavalry for a final charge into the force of archers on the bridge, who, having used up their arrows, were now crowding it for melee fighting. When I zoomed in, expecting to see a Holocaust of dead archers, I instead realized that they were all spear men. I eventually crushed them and took the bridge, but I was impressed at their staying ability in the face of superior troops (especially against my Heavy cav charge). In a sense they are the western (barbarian) variant of the more well known archer/spearmen of the East. A spear is especially valuable to archers, as they must be able to deal with charges of cavalry in the rear of a formation, and the unexpected ability of these soldiers to help (temporarily) hold the line against heavy infantry as well makes the common Dacian Archers an unexpectedly good unit...

[Aemilius Paulus]

i remember a epeiros game where i fight nearly all battle very successfull with hippeis. there was no need for other cavalary.
How did you use them? Their charge is basically worthless, since their spear is overhand.

[Maion Maroneios]

I wouldn'y say worthless. I do agree they are worse than lancers like Prodromoi, or even guys like Lonchophoroi with the underhand grip but they can be used to a good effect.

Maion

[Aemilius Paulus]

I wouldn'y say worthless.
They are good for pursuing routers and chasing missile troops (although to effectively combat those you need the underhand spear/lance cavalry). I suppose they can do rear charges, but besides a small morale drop, I doubt their ability to inflict damage. So why settle for lousy and overpriced Hippeis when Prodromoi, Illyrian Cavalry, Leuce Epos/Curepos will do the same but have a lower price in addition to increased endurance?

[Maion Maroneios]

Indeed, I agree. But do not forget that southern Greek states had a real difficulty fielding a considerable cavalry continent due to the rocky terrain and hoplite tradition. Thessalia and Makedonia were exceptions, as was of course Taras. This goes for the overprice complaint.

Maion

[Watchman]

Hey! The Hippies aren't overpriced, their cost is calculated just the same as everyone else's. *Romans*, OTOH, do take a like 20% price hike to the Equites...

Anyways, while they're certainly unspectacular, they work. Better than nothing (or mere Hippakonstistai), anyway. Repeat charge enough into an engaged enemy's rear and you should get results, plus, well, they're pretty cheap and widely available as cavalry goes.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Hey! The Hippies aren't overpriced
Their cost is overpriced game-wise. Historically, their cost is as is should be. "Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition" thread is about gameplay, and not history. And it is HIPPEIS NOT HIPPIES!!! :furious3::furious3::whip::no:

:clown:

[Watchman]

Their cost is overpriced game-wise.Believe the guy who's done the math often enough, no it isn't.

And it is HIPPEIS NOT HIPPIES!!! :furious3::furious3::whip::no:

:clown:I know. But Hippies are funnier. :devilish:

[A Very Super Market]

Did two posts just get deleted?

[Cute Wolf]

Hippakontistai are way far better than hippeis... they are useful for clean routers effectively, especially their javelins made the romans as javelin-cushion...

[HansDuet]

Hippakontistai are awesome light cavalry.

Numidians on the other hand...

...

[satalexton]

now honestly, they're not bad. It's just they tend to not perform well with people whose playing style don't match the nature of the unit.

All units in EB have their roles and uses, and fare quite well when their qualities are used to the fullest. surely I'll be complaining (for more than just being 'suprisingly bad' :clown:) if I use Hastati as lineholders instead of my trusty hellenes.....

[Zim]

What is the best way to use overhand spear cav? I never have much luck with them. :sweatdrop:


now honestly, they're not bad. It's just they tend to not perform well with people whose playing style don't match the nature of the unit.

All units in EB have their roles and uses, and fare quite well when their qualities are used to the fullest. surely I'll be complaining (for more than just being 'suprisingly bad' :clown:) if I use Hastati as lineholders instead of my trusty hellenes.....

[Cullhwch]

You can only really use overhand spear cav to chase routers and intercept enemy cavalry squadrons. If they have AP secondary weapons, then they can kick the crap out of enemy generals. They're really not good for much else.

[Cullhwch]

Hippakontistai are awesome light cavalry.

Numidians on the other hand...

...

Hey, Numidians can charge pretty damned well. Just don't keep them in melee or they'll get slaughtered.

[Cute Wolf]

Overhanded spear cavalry is handy for a flanking moves too... especially when charging cavalry couldn't find a good time to couch their lances....

But 4 chevroned hippakontistai will fare better...

[Maion Maroneios]

Overhanded spear cavalry is handy for a flanking moves too... especially when charging cavalry couldn't find a good time to couch their lances....

But 4 chevroned hippakontistai will fare better...
OK, that mas lame. With the same rationale 9 chevroned Apeleutheroi will beat the crap out of them even with a single stone hail.

Maion

[Cute Wolf]

4 chevroned hippakontistai is relatively easy to get... just use them as flankers, put their javelins on those pesky infantry, and charge their back... everyone accustomed with HA tactics should know well, rinse repeat tactics.... but with hippakontistai, it gets somewhat tricky, the core is the timing...

[antisocialmunky]

*brings archers, kills 4 chevron hippakontistai*

[HansDuet]

*Rides over archers with hippakontistai*

[Aemilius Paulus]

if I use Hastati as lineholders instead of my trusty hellenes.....
Hey, they are actually marvellous. I am draining Roma' population in my current Eperios campaign just to get Hastati. They get a weapons/armour upgrade+2 chevrons upon recruitment (due to TypeII Gov and a Gym in that city). They are my prime flankers and they also distinguished themselves in several sieges, where they held the walls against various enemies.

Such as those four units of Hastati (3 experience) who held stone-walled Ippone against a fresh fullstack of Kart-Hadastim Maure Infantry (the longsword blokes with javelins), Liby-Phoencian Spearmen (heavy phalanx), Garmantine Infantry, Numdian Skirmishers and Lybian Spearmen. The battle started out with the enemies losing their ram but getting two sets of ladders and a siege tower to the walls. Shortly after, they began pouring out. My Hastati defeated them all, down to the last, just as they were disembarking from ladders, or in direct combat on the wall (although only with the enemies coming out of the siege tower).

Result: Heroic Victory, with two full units of Hastati and one 8-man unit left.

[antisocialmunky]

*Rides over archers with hippakontistai*

Lol? *Places Cretan Archers in defense mode, no skirmish, and orders them to keep firing instead of melee.*

[Xurr]

Hey, they are actually marvellous. I am draining Roma' population in my current Eperios campaign just to get Hastati. They get a weapons/armour upgrade+2 chevrons upon recruitment (due to TypeII Gov and a Gym in that city). They are my prime flankers and they also distinguished themselves in several sieges, where they held the walls against various enemies.

Such as those four units of Hastati (3 experience) who held stone-walled Ippone against a fresh fullstack of Kart-Hadastim Maure Infantry (the longsword blokes with javelins), Liby-Phoencian Spearmen (heavy phalanx), Garmantine Infantry, Numdian Skirmishers and Lybian Spearmen. The battle started out with the enemies losing their ram but getting two sets of ladders and a siege tower to the walls. Shortly after, they began pouring out. My Hastati defeated them all, down to the last, just as they were disembarking from ladders, or in direct combat on the wall (although only with the enemies coming out of the siege tower).

Result: Heroic Victory, with two full units of Hastati and one 8-man unit left.


I agree, do not underestimate Hastati, especially Polybian Hastati. They hold lines quite well and their good maneuverability makes them excellent phalanx breakers to boot.

[athanaric]

Lol? *Places Cretan Archers in defense mode, no skirmish, and orders them to keep firing instead of melee.*

Why such expensive troops? Just get some cheap Arab Archer-Spearmen for the job. Should be able to deal with light skirmisher cavalry, regardless of chevrons.
Speaking of lol: I once destroyed a unit of Scythed chariots and a unit of Asian Hippakontistai at once with only one unit of these Archer-Spearmen... the Artificial Idiocy sent in the chariots first...

[Aemilius Paulus]

I agree, do not underestimate Hastati, especially Polybian Hastati. They hold lines quite well and their good maneuverability makes them excellent phalanx breakers to boot.
Yeah, although I was using the Camillians, as they are regionals available to anyone who is in that area.

[antisocialmunky]

Why such expensive troops? Just get some cheap Arab Archer-Spearmen for the job. Should be able to deal with light skirmisher cavalry, regardless of chevrons.
Speaking of lol: I once destroyed a unit of Scythed chariots and a unit of Asian Hippakontistai at once with only one unit of these Archer-Spearmen... the Artificial Idiocy sent in the chariots first...

That reminds me of the 3 times I fought chariots with Baktria and they died upon contact with the super heavy katanks.

[HansDuet]

Lol? *Places Cretan Archers in defense mode, no skirmish, and orders them to keep firing instead of melee.*

I thought we were talking about some Toxotai.

I absolutely love archer-spearmen.

[HunGeneral]

Most people here seem to like Javelin using cavalry, but how do you use them? The only time I think of training javelin cavalry is when I might run into Elephants (two units of any kind Kill indian Eles wery fast so I think the kill african ones even faster....).

But most often I don't use them unless I have not other missile cavalry availeable or any horsemen fast enough to hunt down all routers.

[antisocialmunky]

High end ones are actually pretty good against high end shock cavalry, plus you can always throw stuff into the backs of some gaulz.

[machinor]

I used Hippakonstistai extensively early in my Epirus campaign against the Romans. At that time I had no real heavy infantry to match the Roman except some Thorakitai (the Romans always flanked any phalangites so I had to change my doctrine for the Italic theater of war). While the Roman formations marched towards my lines, my hippakontistai would ride ahead and pepper the Roman Principes with javelins from the sides and behind or even lure them into chasing them (the hippakontistai, I mean) thus minimizing the heavy-Roman-infantry-impact on my own lines. As the fight drawns on, my hippakontistai return to the main battle line and shower the Romans from behind with their last volley and then charge the Romans who are already exhausted from the march and the fight and quickly broke and fled.
It take a bit of time to really learn the right timing with hippakontistai. Timing is everything, otherwise you get chewed. If you master the use of javelin cavalry however you got a cheap and very very handy tool against heavy infantry (that's the unit type I use my javelin cavalry against).

[Dutchhoplite]

I've got a soft spot for my Thessalian Heavy Cavalry. Perform well in my Epirus campaign.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/epeiros/epe_hippeis_thessalikoi.gif

[Fierro]

Sometimes it is also possible to take out the enemy general with a charge of a couple light cavalry units. The stupid AI likes to keep its general on the flank so you just run a few light cavalry units there to surround the general and charge all at once.Greatly outnumbered and charged from all sides the general is often killed on the first charge.
I used to try to pick off the general with the light cav's javelins but I would just end up using all the javelins and more often than not have the general still alive. One battle where I had already used my javelins on other units I decided to try taking out the general with my cavalry. This was done using numidians against the seleukid general.It worked very well and I took minimal casualties. It wasn't just a stroke of luck of a weak enemy general because I used it for a good number of battles in my Romani campaign everytime with consistent results, unless of course there were other enemy cavalry units nearby that would pose a problem as they would charge into the backs of my numidianswhile they were chopping down their general.
I don't do this anymore though. I think it is a bit too cheap. Sure we all take advantage of the incompetent AI at times, but this was pushing it a little bit IMO

[Maion Maroneios]

4 chevroned hippakontistai is relatively easy to get... just use them as flankers, put their javelins on those pesky infantry, and charge their back... everyone accustomed with HA tactics should know well, rinse repeat tactics.... but with hippakontistai, it gets somewhat tricky, the core is the timing...
You don't get it. It's lame to say a unit is better than the other, if you give them 4 chevrons.

Maion

[Cute Wolf]

Ok, ok maion... I surrender...:argue::surrender:

But then, explain to me... why my hippakontistai tend to get chevrons more quickly than my Hetairoi, or Molossianagema? :charge:
If u argue I get hippakontistai earlier, that wasn't, my experience with 2 units trained at the nearly same tie, and fought in same battle proves that... Hippakontistai kills more...

[machinor]

I think experience has to do with the kind of units you killed (price, stats, etc.). Since Hetairoi are on the top of the unit roster stat- and moneywise they'd have to kill quite a few more units than Hippakontistai to get experience.

[Ca Putt]

apart from that Hippakontistai kill a lot of guys before going into melee and thus automatically have the better kill/loss ratio.

[Xurr]

Ok, ok maion... I surrender...:argue::surrender:

But then, explain to me... why my hippakontistai tend to get chevrons more quickly than my Hetairoi, or Molossianagema? :charge:
If u argue I get hippakontistai earlier, that wasn't, my experience with 2 units trained at the nearly same tie, and fought in same battle proves that... Hippakontistai kills more...

My guess is because you use the Hippakontistai to run down fleeing units. They get experience for any kills they make regardless of how they do it. I know my cavalry gets all kinds of exp doing this.

[Fierro]

While on the topic of experience; how exactly is it calculated?
There is obviously more to it than just kills as sometimes units that were not even anywhere close to any fighting (and have 0 kills) gain experience while units that have hundreds of kills do not get a single point.

[Xurr]

While on the topic of experience; how exactly is it calculated?
There is obviously more to it than just kills as sometimes units that were not even anywhere close to any fighting (and have 0 kills) gain experience while units that have hundreds of kills do not get a single point.

I think experience is actually a number of different things. These include kills, number of battles, using siege equipment etc. I've even had recently retrained units who take causalities in combat actually lose experience. So there are quite a number of factors being taken into account.

[Fierro]

I think experience is actually a number of different things. These include kills, number of battles, using siege equipment etc. I've even had recently retrained units who take causalities in combat actually lose experience. So there are quite a number of factors being taken into account.

It seems to me that individual soldiers in a unit have their own experience level. Whether or not they actually fight at that level or not on the battlemap, I don't know.
For example, a unit with 1/4 of its soldiers with 5 chevrons gets retrained at a city with no experience boosting buildings. All those new soldiers are new unexperienced soldiers and so the overall experience of the unit gets bumped down to 3 chevrons.
Merging a higher experienced unit into a lower experienced unit also sometimes raises the experience of the unit absorbing the soldiers. Likewise merging a lower experienced unit into a higher experienced one can lower the experience of the unit.
Another clue to this is when a unit suffers casualties on the battlefield and actually gains experience from it. My theory would be that enough less experienced soldiers were removed from the unit to bump up the average experience enough to warrant a chevron upgrade. This is sometimes negated when casualties are healed, the battle statistics will show a certain unit receiving experience but upon examination on the campaign map they have the same experience they had before the battle, so all those less experienced soldiers who were killed allowing the unit to have a higher average experience came back along with their lower experience and lowered the unit's experience.

Of course this is purely speculation based on what I've observed. If it were correct my 7 experience unit with 1/8 of its soldiers getting retrained would not keep its gold chevron, it has happened several times though. So I really don't know. It also doesn't explain how whenever I merge units if I have one soldier left after merging that soldier always has no experience even if I was at two soldiers before with full gold chevrons.

How when and why experience is gained I have absolutely no clue about. I agree on many of the factors xurr mentioned, but then how much each plays into account and why they seem to sometimes be ignored I have no possible explanation.
I'm sure some people know

[Mikhail Mengsk]

Surprisingly good- Eastern Axeman

I've tried them in a custom battle Baktria vs Seleukids and with a simple weapon upgrade (bronze) they rocks. They are fast, AP, javelin-throwers (with great range) and damn cheap. Properly used they can take down enough points to double their price!

They can't hold a line, i agree, but they are not supposed to do so. ;-)

[Andronikos]

I don't know, I used them because they are the coolest looking light infantry in the region, but they just die fast and kill slowly, I used them for flanking Seleukid phalanxes, then replaced them with thuerophoroi (can catch flaking cavalry), but I consider giving them second chance.

I have mixed feelings about javelin cavalry. They seem ineffective during the battle, but in battle results their kill ratio is surprisingly high. Does anyone know how to use them in max effect, I am interested both in units without CC like Leuce Epos and CC units like Arachosians. And do you use CC?
(CC = Cantabrian circle)

[Irishmafia2020]

@Fierro

If you merge units their experience is dissipated between units, but if you retrain a unit it keeps its experience no matter how many soldiers the unit gains. This allows for an exploit - merge units if one unit will not be completely absorbed. The unit with a few (or even one) leftover soldiers can be retrained and keep its experience level - even if the unit had only one soldier! I personally roleplay that the experienced veterans of the unit take part in the training and elan building in the new recruits, or that the unit only allows veterans to join them. This does happen with some real world military units, but in game terms, without alex.exe (which allows a.i. retraining) it is probably only justifying an exploit.

[Mikhail Mengsk]

I don't know, I used them because they are the coolest looking light infantry in the region, but they just die fast and kill slowly, I used them for flanking Seleukid phalanxes, then replaced them with thuerophoroi (can catch flaking cavalry), but I consider giving them second chance.

Hehe i'm not saying they are very good AT ALL, they are SURPRISINGLY good XD. I tought they were only cannon fodder, but i surprisingly found them useful. They surely can die fast (lack of armour) but they have AP axes, so they are good for taking down overarmoured enemy units. For their price, they do what i want :beam: remember to keep them away from arrows (put them in second line when deploying) and use only for flanking!

With the mnai saved training them and not other melee infantry, i could afford some heavier unit :whip:

[Aemilius Paulus]

[QUOTE=Irishmafia2020;2264043]but if you retrain a unit it keeps its experience no matter how many soldiers the unit gains./QUOTE]
Everyone says that, but in my experience, retraining high experience units dilutes their chevrons proportionally to the amount of veterans remaining in the unit. Why so? Does no one else experience this?

[athanaric]

Everyone says that, but in my experience, retraining high experience units dilutes their chevrons proportionally to the amount of veterans remaining in the unit. Why so? Does no one else experience this?

It seems a bit random to me; usually the experience goes down with retraining, but I've had other cases. For example, I once bribed a unit of Mori Gaesum that consisted of only 3 or so soldiers. These had, however, 2 gold chevrons (from fighting off countless Aedui and Arverni attacks). Upon retraining that unit, I was baffled to see that their experience level had remained unchanged! Now a gold chevroned Helvetii Pikemen unit (161 men) is a force to be reckoned with... Considering at how cheap a price I bought them from the Eleutheroi, it almost felt like cheating.

[Maion Maroneios]

Everyone says that, but in my experience, retraining high experience units dilutes their chevrons proportionally to the amount of veterans remaining in the unit. Why so? Does no one else experience this?
I have, innumerous times. It seems that te experience is simply shared between the newly recruited men upon retraining. So if you have a half depleted unit that gained 2 chevrons in a battle, replenishing them will result in a full-strength unit with one chevron. At least in theory, that is. Maybe the engine has some other way of "sharing" the experience gained by a unit upon retraining.

Maion

[antisocialmunky]

Your most experienced men are up in the first 2 rows though so its quite random what happens. If alot of your 0 experience men in the back die, then you'll retrain back up the same level. If you lose a lot of those super experienced front guys, and a lot of the back guys as well. The unit will appear to be at a high chevron level until it is retrained.

Its rather random. I believe all surviving men receive XP at the end of the battle though so the drop shouldn't be completely ridiculous.

[Zim]

Yeah, I've had the same experience with them. Speaking of overarmoured units, they (and the similiar Anatolian hillmen, etc.) have been quite useful in my Pontos campaign against enemy generals. I was really impressed, not really expecting much from the guys.


Hehe i'm not saying they are very good AT ALL, they are SURPRISINGLY good XD. I tought they were only cannon fodder, but i surprisingly found them useful. They surely can die fast (lack of armour) but they have AP axes, so they are good for taking down overarmoured enemy units. For their price, they do what i want :beam: remember to keep them away from arrows (put them in second line when deploying) and use only for flanking!

With the mnai saved training them and not other melee infantry, i could afford some heavier unit :whip:

[Fierro]

I would say that the Ethiopian light spearmen commonly fielded by Saba are surprisingly good. Even when led by a captain (no morale boost from general) they stood up to my phalangites and various other units much longer than one would expect a unit of their level to be able to do without routing. I also charged right into their back with a full unit of armored elephants and not only did they refuse to rout, they took down one of the elephants within a few seconds... that elephant had to have been previously injured to drop so fast, but I am 95% sure that nothing had hit it before. Oh well, the game likes to throw me curve balls that leave me saying 'wtf?' quite often.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

I have to say the Lusotann Light Spearman (Gestikipoinan?) are surprisingly good. :yes: They have the 4 defense shield which makes them tough to kill with missiles, especially useful in Iberia where every unit throws something. In addition, they have decent armor and defense skill plus a pretty good attack both melee and missile. They also have very good stamina and are fast moving! All this for a relatively cheap price. They can cause heavy casualties to a foe that is unprepared thinking he is facing a light spear unit. Basically they are exactly what erkdromoi hoplitai should be.:beam:

[Andy1984]

Thessalian cavalry is indeed one of the more remarkable heavy cavalry you can find, if a little expensive to be trained as mercenaries + skyhigh upkeep costs...

Favorite units cost-wise:
- Illyrian coastal levies. They'll stand their ground in some situations
- Slingers, they're dirt cheap and might do something useful
- Any heavy cavalry with underhand spear. They'll trash virtually any unit, regardless the numerical disadvantage you have.

I find myself relying on underhand-cavalry and slingers in any campaign I played (I don't play barbarian factions though).

[Apázlinemjó]

I would say that the Ethiopian light spearmen commonly fielded by Saba are surprisingly good. Even when led by a captain (no morale boost from general) they stood up to my phalangites and various other units much longer than one would expect a unit of their level to be able to do without routing. I also charged right into their back with a full unit of armored elephants and not only did they refuse to rout, they took down one of the elephants within a few seconds... that elephant had to have been previously injured to drop so fast, but I am 95% sure that nothing had hit it before. Oh well, the game likes to throw me curve balls that leave me saying 'wtf?' quite often.

What battle difficulty did you play with?

[Irishmafia2020]

I would say that the Ethiopian light spearmen commonly fielded by Saba are surprisingly good. Even when led by a captain (no morale boost from general) they stood up to my phalangites and various other units much longer than one would expect a unit of their level to be able to do without routing. I also charged right into their back with a full unit of armored elephants and not only did they refuse to rout, they took down one of the elephants within a few seconds... that elephant had to have been previously injured to drop so fast, but I am 95% sure that nothing had hit it before. Oh well, the game likes to throw me curve balls that leave me saying 'wtf?' quite often.

Those Ethiopian light spearmen form the backbone of your Saba armies if you play with them, and they are one of the best troops available in the regional MIC's for other factions as well (in that area).

[Julius Augustus]

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/romani/romani_cohors_imperatoria.gif
For my surprisingly bad units, I would have to submit the Roman Legionaries. 10 Armor seems a bit low, but could be alright, but 8 defense skill!!?? That's lower than Pandatopi. It just seems wrong to give a well trained unit that low of a combat skill rating. And the pila. I hate them. 4 attack rating. That seems too low for a heavy javelin. I read that that rating is a compromise between the heavy and the light pila. But still, that means that the light pila would have like 2 attack. :wall::wall::wall:

Sorry for the rant.:oops:

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/koinon-hellenon/kh_hoplitai.gif
For my surprisingly good unit, I would mention the humble Hoplitai. For the low price of 1367 mnai, the pack a good punch, especially against phalanxes. In guard mode, they are insane.:2thumbsup:

My first post ever!:beam:

[Mediolanicus]

[IMG] but 8 defense skill!!?? That's lower than Pandatopi. :



So you're arguing that a guy in full armor and legionary kit could dart and duck and hop around on the battle field as easy as a guy wearing only a tunic, a stick and slightly oversized wooden dinner plate...

In my late Romani campaign (115BC), the Roman Legionaries are unsurprisingly very good rank and file soldiers, the best in the world.

Oh, and welcome to the fora!

[Julius Augustus]

So you're arguing that a guy in full armor and legionary kit could dart and duck and hop around on the battle field as easy as a guy wearing only a tunic, a stick and slightly oversized wooden dinner plate...

In my late Romani campaign (115BC), the Roman Legionaries are unsurprisingly very good rank and file soldiers, the best in the world.

Oh, and welcome to the fora!

Thanks for welcoming me Mediolanicus. What I meant by my remarks on the Legionaries is that, well, they go through some pretty intensive training, and as such, their skill just seems to be a little bit low. I know that he is heavily armored, but still, all that training should amount to something. The guy with the tunic is just a farmer or city dweller who is told to go and fight. The legionary is a professional warrior. I'm not saying that Legionaries are bad, just that they are not as good as I thought they would be.

(Me worries about starting a long+pointless argument like the one a while ago about the pros and cons of Thessalian Cavalry.)

About the Pandatopi though, in one of my campaigns, a Seleukid one, I used 2 units of them to defeat 2 of Pahlava's insane early bodyguards.
Pretty surprising. Even better, they only took like 40% casualties.

[lionhard]

Elite african pike men pwns :P

[Maion Maroneios]

You like the word "pwn" don't you?

Maion

[option]

The African Pikemen are a nice addition to the Qarthadastim roster. I like not having to worry about the centre of my battle line breaking.

[antisocialmunky]

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/romani/romani_cohors_imperatoria.gif
For my surprisingly bad units, I would have to submit the Roman Legionaries. 10 Armor seems a bit low, but could be alright, but 8 defense skill!!?? That's lower than Pandatopi. It just seems wrong to give a well trained unit that low of a combat skill rating. And the pila. I hate them. 4 attack rating. That seems too low for a heavy javelin. I read that that rating is a compromise between the heavy and the light pila. But still, that means that the light pila would have like 2 attack. :wall::wall::wall:
My first post ever!:beam:

Aparently if you put a chevron, an armor upgrade, and a defense upgrade on them and then stick them in guard mode they can stop phalangites dead :-p.:wall:

[Cute Wolf]

Think about efficiency compared to costs.... Romaioi legions didn't come cheap, and those imperial legions comes very late in the game...

[Fierro]

What battle difficulty did you play with?

Medium


Elite african pike men pwns :P

I wouldn't really consider an "elite" unit "surprisingly" good... IMO surprisingly good is a unit you expect to be very shitty or average and they greatly exceed your expectation

[Apázlinemjó]

Medium

Then those Ethiopians spearmen aren't that bad after all, though I prefer the swordsmen.

Back to the legionaries, on huge they have 202 men in one unit, which means +40 troops compared to other factions' non-pike heavy infantry, also they are very cheap compared to others again and finally, they have higher morale. That's why, they are one of the best heavy inf. you can get.

[godsakes]

already mentioned but the casse - Kluddobro (Britons Shortswordsmen) is a suprisingly good unit

http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.net/pics/Info/celtic_infantry_kluddobro_INFO.jpg

+ drit cheap (cost 675 and 169 upkeep)
+ wide AOR
+ 100 men in a unit

- weak
- low morale
- fall like flies

they're basically the brit's immortals (aka cannon fodder) - they are a below average troop, but they are dirt cheap with a wide AOR you can have units take huge losses and replace them easily (in most of europe). You can buy 2 units of these guys for the price of a average unit, for that money they punch well above their weight

can be used in overwhelming force to take smaller rebel settlements (ideally supported by slingers)

cheap garrasion troups

against tougher stacks you must support them with a command unit for a morale boost e.g naked spearmen, or higher end swordsmen like the Milnaht (Belgae Swordsmen). But they are still great for giving the enemy a target while your better troops flank them.



my surprisingly bad unit is the Calawre (Casse Champions)

http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.net/pics/Info/celtic_infantry_calawre_INFO.jpg

unit size is only 60 so alittle small to make a serious difference
i also lost 2 units of these against a wall battle against 1 gallic swordsmen
relatively expensive - the Milnaht (Belgae Swordsmen) has basically the same stats but cheaper and a larger unit size unfortunately they have a low AOR so you're forced to hire these guys when you need to quickly reinforce an army

[Apázlinemjó]

my surprisingly bad unit is the Calawre (Casse Champions)

http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.net/pics/Info/celtic_infantry_calawre_INFO.jpg

unit size is only 60 so alittle small to make a serious difference
i also lost 2 units of these against a wall battle against 1 gallic swordsmen
relatively expensive - the Milnaht (Belgae Swordsmen) has basically the same stats but cheaper and a larger unit size unfortunately they have a low AOR so you're forced to hire these guys when you need to quickly reinforce an army

I agree in that one, they aren't good as line-infantry nor "decisive factor" in battles.

[mountaingoat]

has anyone used the "warewolf, cannibal" slavic spearman ? lol ..


https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/sauromatae/sau_voinu_spearmen.gif

i have encountered many of them in when going into sauro land

[Fierro]

my surprisingly bad unit is the Calawre (Casse Champions)

http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.net/pics/Info/celtic_infantry_calawre_INFO.jpg

unit size is only 60 so alittle small to make a serious difference
i also lost 2 units of these against a wall battle against 1 gallic swordsmen
relatively expensive - the Milnaht (Belgae Swordsmen) has basically the same stats but cheaper and a larger unit size unfortunately they have a low AOR so you're forced to hire these guys when you need to quickly reinforce an army

I think their 2 defence shield might help with that.

[Watchman]

I agree in that one, they aren't good as line-infantry nor "decisive factor" in battles.Doing It Wrong. The Casse "hero" units are there as morale-boosters and "point man" support for the common warriors; trying to use them as regular heavy infantry is missing the point, and moreover ineffective.

[Apázlinemjó]

Doing It Wrong. The Casse "hero" units are there as morale-boosters and "point man" support for the common warriors; trying to use them as regular heavy infantry is missing the point, and moreover ineffective.

I meant the "decisive factor" under that.

[godsakes]

Doing It Wrong. The Casse "hero" units are there as morale-boosters and "point man" support for the common warriors; trying to use them as regular heavy infantry is missing the point, and moreover ineffective.

but surely that only proves how limited they are?

the much cheaper naked spearmen for example give a morale boost and scare the enemy - can be used for flanking and fending off horses. As stated the only reason to use Casse Champions is because most of the better (and cost effective) morale boosting troops have small AOR so you're forced into using them

[Maion Maroneios]

has anyone used the "warewolf, cannibal" slavic spearman ? lol ..


https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/sauromatae/sau_voinu_spearmen.gif

i have encountered many of them in when going into sauro land
Ah, the infamous androphagoi, or man-eaters. I've always had the urge to go and have a small chat with them along with a Royal Army, if you get me. Let's just say that destroying the ancestors of a modern-day propagandistic pseudo-nation is going to be extremely fun.

Maion

[HunGeneral]

has anyone used the "warewolf, cannibal" slavic spearman ? lol ..


https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/sauromatae/sau_voinu_spearmen.gif

i have encountered many of them in when going into sauro land

As Sauros I have used them a few times... if I remember right then there good against cavalry pluss they make good work at cleaning the field of bodies...:smash:... but besides that... no idea.

[athanaric]

Ah, the infamous androphagoi, or man-eaters. I've always had the urge to go and have a small chat with them along with a Royal Army, if you get me. Let's just say that destroying the ancestors of a modern-day propagandistic pseudo-nation is going to be extremely fun.

Maion

:wall:



To answer the original question:

Yes, I have used them. They are very good vs. cavalry and light infantry, but should be kept away from heavy missile fire. Together with Bastarnae falxmen, they make a fearsome and enduring combination capable of shredding every type of cavalry in melee.

[Maion Maroneios]

Really? I only saw them some time ago in Olbia when I sent one of my Strategoi over to "liberate" the Hellenes of the Bosporos.

Maion

[Tartaros]

I hire them as soon as possible. the fear-bonus is enough + for the price.

[Cute Wolf]

Voinos is a cheap troops indeed... I once fill half of my Sauro army with them to fight pahlavans... my enemies will rout on contact with them... wahahaha...

[Aemilius Paulus]

Hehe, my grandparents did indeed fight well... ...and eat too, as human flesh is highly delectable, akin to that of a swine (kinda shows who we are most closely related to, along with rats, who share most of our anatomy and general way the body functions and responds to various stimuli- hence the use of pigs and rats in drug testing), only much more flavourful. Although this does depend on the diet of the human. :devilish:

[Maion Maroneios]

Yikes Aimilios...

Maion

[athanaric]

Hehe, my grandparents did indeed fight well... ...and eat too, as human flesh is highly delectable, akin to that of a swine (kinda shows who we are most closely related to, along with rats, who share most of our anatomy and general way the body functions and responds to various stimuli- hence the use of pigs and rats in drug testing), only much more flavourful. Although this does depend on the diet of the human. :devilish:

I believe vegetarians and vegans taste best. After all, we don't eat flesh-eating animals, do we?

[Watchman]

Mainly because that'd be bloody ineffective. Though, fish...

[Ludens]

I believe vegetarians and vegans taste best. After all, we don't eat flesh-eating animals, do we?

That's because breeding carnivorous animals is not cost-effective. Less than 10% of consumed biomass will be converted into consumer mass. In other words: to breed a 100 pound predator you need to feed it more than 1000 pound of (presumably vegetarian) prey. It's far more profitable to sell this 1000 pound worth of vegetarian animals, than it is to feed them to carnivores and have only 100 pound of meat available.

[Maion Maroneios]

Yeah, I remember vaugely something about this 10% thing during my last year at school. I remember our Biology teacher telling us that, generally, it is less cost-effective to actually feed on animals than feed on plants. But with the same logic breeding herbivores is more cost-effective than breeding carnivores.

Maion

[Ludens]

Yeah, I remember vaugely something about this 10% thing during my last year at school. I remember our Biology teacher telling us that, generally, it is less cost-effective to actually feed on animals than feed on plants.

Well, from the point of view of the consumer it doesn't matter much whether the biomass comes from plants or animals: 100 pounds of biomass is 100 pounds worth of energy, regardless where it comes from. This ignores specific nutritious needs and specialized digestive systems obviously, but if you take those in account a carnivore like the wolf actually has more trouble obtaining and digesting 100 pounds of plants than 100 pounds of flesh.

However, from an ecological point of view vegetarians are more efficient. It takes 1000 pounds of plants to create a 100 pound vegetarian, but it takes 1000 pound of vegetarian (which in turn requires 10.000 pound of plants) to create a 100 pound carnivore. In fact, it's even more inefficient than that, since less than 50% of animals reaches reproductive age. So it probably takes 1500 pounds of plant to get a 100 pound vegetarian as well as its brother, which died when it was 50 pounds.

[Watchman]

That's the good old food chain. Plants and the like do the primary production of energy and nutrients. Herbivores come and get theirs by eating the plants. Carnivores duly feed on the herbivores. Works quite well, but given the diminishing returns relative to the primary production as you move up the chain (ie. why there's invariably WAY more herbivores than carnivores preying on them), means there's no economic sense in intentionally raising carnivores for food.

[satalexton]

SO it's like the Romaioi gets chewed up by the pantodapoi, which in turns gets whittled down by any missle unit, which the hetairoi would charge n rout...

[Chloe]

A favorite unit of mine is any barbarian shortswordsmen, such as the Alpine Swordsman or the Galatikoi Kluddolon. :laugh4:

[mountaingoat]

Yes, I have used them. They are very good vs. cavalry and light infantry, but should be kept away from heavy missile fire. Together with Bastarnae falxmen, they make a fearsome and enduring combination capable of shredding every type of cavalry in melee.

interesting ,they seem to get cut down by most infantry units , i do not recall if i have charged a cav unit head on into them ... are they available to hire as mercs?

[Satyros]

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/epeiros/epi_indian_elephant.gif

Surprinsingly bad unit. Very high recruitmencosts, high upkeep, die very fast against on of the cheapest units (Akontistai) and can run amok if not used correctly. That means you get a big Elephant, which needs much care, is very expensive and does a job which (except the frightens infantery/cavalery bonus) every cavaleryman with a xyston could do. You also have the risk, that it turns against your own men (one point more for the xystonboys).

Sure they look awesome and their charge is bigger then the one of a cavalery unit, but the high price makes them only to a "look how much money I have" unit. IMO they are not worth the money you need to recruit them. And I neither mentioned the two turns it takes to recruit them nor the limited recruitment area. But I have to admit it feels good to have the possibility to recruit them.

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

I totally disagree good sir .

In my recent campaign a unit of these chaps with the support of a unit of Illyrioi Hippeis and another of Tarantine cavalry butchered ( starting game cavalry units as Epeiros ) every roman they could get their hands on , they creamed slightly tired roman lines , reaching all the way from the flank to the roman general and then proceeding to beat the crap out of him too .

After the last Roman city fell after a 4 year Epeirote offensive ( don't count the early stages of the Epeiros-Romani war defending Taras as at that time the elephants were campaigning in northern Greece , being used mainly as siege weapons ) I had one elephant ( unit str 3 ) left with 2 golden chevrons , and as soon as I retrained them they became a force of doom . I was so happy with them , I even trained another unit for another stack to go campaigning against the Ptolemaioi , in my attempt to keep the allied Seuleukeia in the game . A single unit per stack is more than enough , and definetely worths its money .

So you might want to reconsider , I wouldn't have been able to defeat the Romani without my elephants , that's for sure . No way .

"Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam" : a reality , thanks to Elephantes Indikoi .

Satyros

[Mikhail Mengsk]

Indian elephants got chewed by a unit of asian axemen and tourephoroi in my campaign. Sure they killed about 60-80 soldiers, but my soldiers won the day. It's 13000 mnai to build, isn't it? With those mnais i could build up enough units to kill them all.

[option]

Indian Elephants are all about correct usage. You NEVER have them stand and fight, you start them at the flanks of an enemy battle line while they're engaged with your line and let them rip through the formation all the way to the other flank. The morale effect is also amazing, merely having elephants in the vicinity of a hammer and anvil strike will almost always make the enemy unit rout, and it's easy to start chain routs. Love them.

[Ca Putt]

I just had a hard fight against Phyrros als the KH my army was largely composed of levy hoplites and I had almost no cavalry the AI managed to keep my Hippakontistai away from their Elephants and they routed my only unit of proper hoplites and one of my ekdromoi without taking any losses. not even my Peltastai could bring them down :( in the end they were killed by a tired unit of Hoplitai Haploi with only taking very few casulties(ok they were hurt from the peltasts but the peltasts did not kill one) but once the elephants were dead the bulk of the Epirote Army routed or were routed by the remains of my cavalry. I won the battle and Phyrros fell on the battlefield like the lion share of his troops. Still the League of the Hellens lost many sons that day.
imo those Levy hoplites should be Picked into the ranks of the Epilektoi :DDD but unfortunately I can't train them yet :(

conclusion: Hoplitai Haploi surprisingly Awesome^^
Indian Elephants Deadly scary almost Immortal but extremely unreliable. I like units that I can trust thus troops that only rout/die if you expect it. that's basically why I play KH and Sweboz^^.

[Mikhail Mengsk]

Indian Elephants are all about correct usage. You NEVER have them stand and fight, you start them at the flanks of an enemy battle line while they're engaged with your line and let them rip through the formation all the way to the other flank. The morale effect is also amazing, merely having elephants in the vicinity of a hammer and anvil strike will almost always make the enemy unit rout, and it's easy to start chain routs. Love them.

With elephant's cost and upkeep you can use cataphracts or other heavy cavalries. You'll have a much more versatile force. They simply aren't cost-effective.

[Watchman]

Matter of taste. Plus, most factions don't get cataphracts either so meh.

[Maion Maroneios]

Indeed, it is a matter of taste. When used correctly, elephants can be a war-winning force. They scare enemy infantry and cavalry, they have a huge morale impact upon the enemy because of their high killing ratio when charging an enemy line, plus they can stand their own for quite some time.

But speaking of elephants, I believe they were more or less like nuclear weapons of our time. That's a very rough analogy, but let me explain it; Even though some nations may have had elephants in their disposal, they weren't always used because of the dangers that come with using them on the battlefield. That's something everyone who had experience with elephant warfare knew as a fact. But being able to afford to train and feed a considerable number of elephants, meant that the nation was very powerful and not to be taken too lightly. More or less like a symbol of their military prowess. Same as nuclear weapons nowdays. The USA have nuclear weapons in their disposal, though I doubt it if they are ever going to use them because of the destruction if will cause and which in turn might affect them directly or indirectly as well. But just having the techonolgy and funds to make and maintain such weapons, is a symbol of their high military, economical and technological level.

Maion

[Watchman]

A rather poor comparision IMO, given that the main point of nukes is that nobody dares use the damn things and there's few countermeasures against them. Conversely everyone who now went to the trouble of bringing a bunch of war-trained hefalumps to battlefield normally also used the blasted things, and there were also quite a few tactics a wily opponent could try to use to neutralise them...

[Maion Maroneios]

I know it's a poor comparison, but I already stated that. I just wanted to give an example on how I believe elephants were used back during those times. Not so much as a powerful unit, but as a symbol of might that striked fear into the enemy.

Maion

[Maion Maroneios]

Sorry, double post...

[Watchman]

...no, I don't think that really computes. The pachyderms after all had real enough tactical uses. Arguably a better comparision would be the Late Bronze Age war chariots - an effective weapon system hopefully flat out too expensive (or difficult to develop) for the opponent to match. In that sense a more relevant modern parallel would be the assorted mind-bogglingly expensive late Cold War "superweapons", eg. stealth bombers and the superfighters like F-22 and Eurofighter...

[Satyros]

I'm not of a multiplayer guy so can't tell how the Elephants fare against clever opponents , but against a dumb A.I. general they are campaign ( --> much more than just "battle" ) winners . To have Elephants at your starting army as Epeiros is a blessing .

Satyros

[Mikhail Mengsk]

Sure they are powerful, i'm only saying that they costs too much and requires HUGE upkeep. A rich faction could afford them, many others should avoid them, even if they are campaign-winners.

Think about their "running amok" risk: 2-3 missile units (eastern ones) could really ruin you day. I've tried many times and it works: using flaming arrows makes an Indian Eleph unit to run amok before it could hit your lines. Needless to say what eastern and nomadic HAs could do against them...

As Hannibal, i find them useful if you already have them, but i will never base my tactic upon them. After the first encounter during Phyrric wars, they had never been decisive against Romans. Historically, they were pretty easy to counter; in an african battle (thapsus?) against his roman rivals, Caesar used huge "buccine" (sort of roman horns) to make them routing shortly after the first impact. And his veteran legions held the line against the moster's charge.

[Watchman]

See above concerning weapon systems whose one competitive advantage is specifically their extreme expense...

Anyway, sure they could be countered if you knew how. And were probably never really at their best frontally against confident infantry. But like scythed chariots, they wouldn't have remained in use for centuries - or millenia in the elephants' case - if they didn't work sufficiently often to merit bothering with...

[Mikhail Mengsk]

They worked until they became "useless". In EB timeframe, they were at the end of their "career", i think. Elite infantries (like roman ones), new tactics (flaming weapons) and more versatile "hammers" started to make elephants less effective.

[Watchman]

The Sassanids at least seemed to consider elephants worthwhile to deploy against the Romans, so eh...

Also, Romans elite my left foot. What they were was disciplined and versatile, and as it happens the manipular formation was by fortunate accident quite resistant to such weapon systems (since it was fairly easy to simply shift the sub-units out of the way to create "alleys" through which elephant and chariot horse alike tended to proceed) and armed with heavy armour-piercing throwing-spears which were well suited to doing bad things to such threats.

[Conradus]

Considering that elephants were still used in the 17the century against the Mughals in India, I'd hardly call the EB-timeframe the end of their career.

[Mikhail Mengsk]

I would have to say "in western warfare". In India there were plenty of them, so why not to use them?

If you have to buy them from India to europe or even middle east, it's different. You will do it only if you think it worth it. And it worth no more.

[Watchman]

Tell that to the Sassanids circa 7th century AD - the Muslim Arabs had to kill several of the beasts, you know...

[antisocialmunky]

You have to remember that they pretty much made the African Forest elephant extinct and had to wander too far south/east to get them economically.

[Nirvanish]

Sorry to be a buzzkill but I believe the extinct elephant species you are referring to was deemed unsuitable for warfare because of its small stature. If I remember correctly Carthage usually bought their war elephants(they were of a larger species) from areas South of Egypt.

Edit-After some further reading on the subject I have found that the use of the North African Forest Elephant and those of Eastern Africa/Southern Asia is not as cut and dry as I once was told. While there is some debate as to whether a North African Forest Elephant was large enough to carry a turret on its back as viewed on many images of Carthaginian troops, many people believe that these elephants were the mainstay of the Carthaginian elephant corps.

[mountaingoat]

i am thinking that the use of elephant in the battlefield is mostly symbolic.

i understand that a group of 30 trained elephants charging towards an enemy line is effective ( imagine the image to the person defending against them and the feeling you would have if they were charging on your side ) .. but a handful of peltasti would take down and elephant fairly quickly( if even just one skilled peltast) ... i think the peltast units ( specific ones , not ones that just carry something to throw ) .. are not portrayed to their fullest in the engine.

but all things aside , it is saddening to take these awesome creatures and force them to battle ( the same for horses ) ... i do not see them being a cost effective unit at all .. which is why i think they were used more a symbol of power .. or possibly esoteric meaning.

[Watchman]

Elephants were normally given a light-infantry escort to keep enemy skirmishers from swarming them, you know... but in any case they were always most effective against cavalry.

[antisocialmunky]

Sorry to be a buzzkill but I believe the extinct elephant species you are referring to was deemed unsuitable for warfare because of its small stature. If I remember correctly Carthage usually bought their war elephants(they were of a larger species) from areas South of Egypt.

Edit-After some further reading on the subject I have found that the use of the North African Forest Elephant and those of Eastern Africa/Southern Asia is not as cut and dry as I once was told. While there is some debate as to whether a North African Forest Elephant was large enough to carry a turret on its back as viewed on many images of Carthaginian troops, many people believe that these elephants were the mainstay of the Carthaginian elephant corps.

At the end of the day, it was probably more about money and logistics rather than effectiveness. I wouldn't spend that much effort on an unreliable tool.

[mountaingoat]

Elephants were normally given a light-infantry escort to keep enemy skirmishers from swarming them, you know... but in any case they were always most effective against cavalry.

well they would have to break away from them at some point , else they would charge into their own ..

but anyway

[Watchman]

Clearly, you did not understand either their role or how open-order light infantry attacks elephants. That latter is done by fairly literally *swarming* the big animal, attacking it from every quarter, getting under it to attack its relatively soft stomach (or throat; apparently one Arab commander slew an elephant by ducking under its jaw and slashing its jugular - several later attempts at replicating the feat resulted in a squished would-be hero though...), throwing javelins into its sides, etc.

The obvious role of the escorts is to get in the way of such efforts so the hefalump can concentrate on its main job, ie. terrifying horses and making a mess of close-order infantry formations.

[antisocialmunky]

I wonder if in India, any commander ever took advantage of a male elephant's musk. Assuming the the enemy's elephants were males, well a female in heat would have been an interesting tactic. I know of one instance where someone had all his cavalry use mares in heat to force the enemy to charge. It did but the battle ended up in a wash since both cavalry forces went crazy and didn't accomplish anything.

Obviously the humor quality of a hundred crazy horny elephants would truely be a sight to behold.

[athanaric]

Elephants were normally given a light-infantry escort to keep enemy skirmishers from swarming them, you know... but in any case they were always most effective against cavalry.

Interestingly, I've developed a similar tactic in EB. My elephants are always accompanied by light or medium cavalry, preferably Kambojas or Prodromoi.

[Aemilius Paulus]

I wonder if in India, any commander ever took advantage of a male elephant's musk. Assuming the the enemy's elephants were males, well a female in heat would have been an interesting tactic. I know of one instance where someone had all his cavalry use mares in heat to force the enemy to charge. It did but the battle ended up in a wash since both cavalry forces went crazy and didn't accomplish anything.

Obviously the humor quality of a hundred crazy horny elephants would truely be a sight to behold.
I wonder why they did not do the same with humans. Arguably, human males are even more susceptible to such tactics...

[Apázlinemjó]

I wonder why they did not do the same with humans. Arguably, human males are even more susceptible to such tactics...

Now that's a good question, few thousand naked women on the battlefield...Jesus.

[DaciaJC]

I wonder why they did not do the same with humans. Arguably, human males are even more susceptible to such tactics...

I thought we were all in agreement that the Germanic Screeching Women were a fantasy?

[antisocialmunky]

Now that's a good question, few thousand naked women on the battlefield...Jesus.

You'd have that one guy that would totally ruin that moment by going on the homocidal rampage. Plus, if the enemy decided to Sun Tzu it, all those women would be preloaded with all the social diseases that could be imagined. Then you soldiers would take that home and give it to their wives and their future kids and thereby undermine your population with horrible painful genital warts.

[Apázlinemjó]

You'd have that one guy that would totally ruin that moment by going on the homocidal rampage. Plus, if the enemy decided to Sun Tzu it, all those women would be preloaded with all the social diseases that could be imagined. Then you soldiers would take that home and give it to their wives and their future kids and thereby undermine your population with horrible painful genital warts.

Biological warfare ala ancient times?

[antisocialmunky]

Epic wall hax results in "I'm in your base killing you doodz"... with Siphillus

[Aemilius Paulus]

I thought we were all in agreement that the Germanic Screeching Women were a fantasy?
Actually, Screeching Women were actually sort of historical unit for the Germanic tribes. In every battle, the Ancient Germans would have the women follow them and guard the baggage/supply train (as Marius found in his campaign against Teutons/Cimbri, where the women resisted to the last drop of blood when their supply train was attacked after the Germanic defeat). During battle, as the vanilla description notes, the women were sort of "demented cheerleaders". They would cheer the warriors on, mostly though, when the men were fleeing. Then the women would taunt them and as the Roman historians noted, it worked almost every time, bringing the men back into the battle.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Biological warfare ala ancient times?
Oh, but that happened. The only problem is, I cannot recollect when or where :wall::whip:

[Nirvanish]

Now that's a good question, few thousand naked women on the battlefield...Jesus.

http://www.umich.edu/~marcons/Crusades/topics/women/women-article.html

The account may be disputed by historians but how did Amazons dress?

[A Very Super Market]

Mongols flung plague victims over the walls of Kaffa, I believe.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Mongols flung plague victims over the walls of Kaffa, I believe.
I know not of what this has to do with, but it was a common practice in Mediaeval times.

[A Very Super Market]

Yes, but they used generic illnesses, not the Black Death.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Yes, but they used generic illnesses, not the Black Death.
I am not sure if the Mongols realised the significance of that disease, but who knows?

[Watchman]

Plague like plague. Besieging armies tended to start having cases of something or other sooner or later (the usual result of an army camping in one place for an extended period), and while somewhat cavalier lobbing the resulting dead over the fortress wall was just about the most constructive thing you could do with them.

I sincerely doubt anyone paid much attention to the exact symptoms the victim had died of.

Though, in this case one has to wonder - the bubonic plague is spread by fleas, right ? Bloodsucking little critters like that are AFAIK wont to leave a dead body in very short order for greener pastures (Germans trapped in the Stalingrad encirclement noted with morbid curiosity you could tell when a man passed away from the wave of lice vacating him...), so you'd think those cadavers made for somewhat ineffective biological weapons...

[Phalanx300]

Actually, Screeching Women were actually sort of historical unit for the Germanic tribes. In every battle, the Ancient Germans would have the women follow them and guard the baggage/supply train (as Marius found in his campaign against Teutons/Cimbri, where the women resisted to the last drop of blood when their supply train was attacked after the Germanic defeat). During battle, as the vanilla description notes, the women were sort of "demented cheerleaders". They would cheer the warriors on, mostly though, when the men were fleeing. Then the women would taunt them and as the Roman historians noted, it worked almost every time, bringing the men back into the battle.


Indeed, thought I suspect that the women only joinen the man in war if there was a migration. Or probably only a few joining them to cook and other women stuff :sweatdrop:.

Though yeah, if you run from battle and see your wife screeming at you it probably terrifies you more then the enemy, rather a dead by them :P.

[Watchman]

At the battle of Yarmuk at least the Arabs had their wives along and defending the camp; then the Muslim center broke these not only succesfully repulsed Byzantine attempts to overrun the camp, but also apparently managed to rally their menfolk back into line - both by outright shaming them and by thinly veiled threats of dire and lethal domestic consequences for cowards down the road... :whip:

Is this awesome? y/y :beam:

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Oh, but that happened. The only problem is, I cannot recollect when or where :wall::whip:

I recall reading that during the siege of Hatra by the Romans, the inhabitants flung pottery filled with scorpions into the ranks, I suppose hoping the startled creatures would sting Roman feet.:skull:

Also remember something about Carthaginians doing something similar with poisonous snakes during naval battles with the Romans. No idea on how legitimate these claims are.

[Watchman]

Where beekeeping was widely practiced, I understand people could get quite creative with the little buzzing things. Hurling nests - or bees in jars - into enemy camps was apparently a popular means to be a nuisance, and AFAIK hives were sometimes purposefully added into earth walls and ramparts to help deter assaults - the insects being rather territorial, after all.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Indeed, thought I suspect that the women only joinen the man in war if there was a migration.
No, I believe it was Tacitus who stated Germanic tribes always go to war with women, or at least in the case when they were raiding the limes.

[Phalanx300]

No, I believe it was Tacitus who stated Germanic tribes always go to war with women, or at least in the case when they were raiding the limes.

Interesting, might explain why the Germans were never eager to give up, all that complaining on their head. :sweatdrop:

[antisocialmunky]

Living with this:
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2005/09/19/merkel256.jpg

Or beating up this:
http://www.movievillains.com/images/commodus.jpg

Not really a hard choice...

[Phalanx300]

Living with this:
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2005/09/19/merkel256.jpg

Or beating up this:
http://www.movievillains.com/images/commodus.jpg

Not really a hard choice...

You make a valid point, now we know why the Germanics were so eager in combat, they had a greater fear lurking around. :whip:

[Apázlinemjó]

Those pictures explain why the Germans love the battles. Rofl.

[Ibrahim]

At the battle of Yarmuk at least the Arabs had their wives along and defending the camp; then the Muslim center broke these not only succesfully repulsed Byzantine attempts to overrun the camp, but also apparently managed to rally their menfolk back into line - both by outright shaming them and by thinly veiled threats of dire and lethal domestic consequences for cowards down the road... :whip:

Is this awesome? y/y :beam:

didn't help the men (arab or Byzantine) that the women came out with the tentpoles-very very bad news when that thing weighs a few stones:clown:

I have a drawing from osprey showing that scene-I get a kick watching the muslim soldiers running away from their wives

the women also also accompanied the men at Uhud, and at Hunayn.

hind bint 'utbah was...with issues..she chews up hamzah's liver at uhud, and now this :no: (she lead the women at yarmouk)

[Cute Wolf]

Where beekeeping was widely practiced, I understand people could get quite creative with the little buzzing things. Hurling nests - or bees in jars - into enemy camps was apparently a popular means to be a nuisance, and AFAIK hives were sometimes purposefully added into earth walls and ramparts to help deter assaults - the insects being rather territorial, after all.

Ancient version of Scrin buzzer hives....

But at least I know the Hellenes have some kind of insecticides.... and if they are common practices, Peltastai will also equipped with spray cans....

[godsakes]

surprisingly bad unit:

Ambakaro Epones (Lusotannan Elite Medium Cavalry)

http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.net/pics/Info/iberian_cavalry_ambakaro_epones_INFO.jpg

cost: 3804
upkeep: 951

these guys only seem to be good for skirmishing and moping up routed units (completely usless at charging), it's a role done just as well by light cavalry units half the price (numidian cavalry)

for just slightly more you can get a unit of Iberi Lanceari (Iberian Heavy Cavalry)

http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.net/pics/Info/iberian_cavalry_heavy_lancearii_INFO.jpg

cost: 3815
upkeep: 954

AFAIK these are the heaviest cavalry you can get in western europe

[DaciaJC]

http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.net/pics/Info/iberian_cavalry_heavy_lancearii_INFO.jpg

cost: 3815
upkeep: 954

AFAIK these are the heaviest cavalry you can get in western europe

And you consider them to be a surprisingly bad unit?

[godsakes]

And you consider them to be a surprisingly bad unit?

of course not :wall:

i featured them to show what better units your money could buy over the Ambakaro Epones (Lusotannan Elite Medium Cavalry) :wall::wall::wall:

[DaciaJC]

of course not :wall:

i featured them to show what better units your money could buy over the Ambakaro Epones (Lusotannan Elite Medium Cavalry) :wall::wall::wall:

Ah, indeed.

[Fluvius Camillus]

I wonder if in India, any commander ever took advantage of a male elephant's musk. Assuming the the enemy's elephants were males, well a female in heat would have been an interesting tactic. I know of one instance where someone had all his cavalry use mares in heat to force the enemy to charge. It did but the battle ended up in a wash since both cavalry forces went crazy and didn't accomplish anything.

Obviously the humor quality of a hundred crazy horny elephants would truely be a sight to behold.

You mean...

Do you really want to see this?I warned you...Ok here it is BEHOLD!https://i594.photobucket.com/albums/tt22/Fluvius_Camillus/14a269ec_vakansie2.jpg

No, I could not resist.

~Fluvius

Edit: I censored this because of the forum policy.

[athanaric]

surprisingly bad unit:

Ambakaro Epones (Lusotannan Elite Medium Cavalry)

http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.net/pics/Info/iberian_cavalry_ambakaro_epones_INFO.jpg

cost: 3804
upkeep: 951

these guys only seem to be good for skirmishing and moping up routed units (completely usless at charging), it's a role done just as well by light cavalry units half the price (numidian cavalry)


I think you mistake the purpose of the Ambakaro Epones. Like two other very similar units, the Taxilan Agema and the Hippeis Tarantinoi, they are very effective in what they are supposed to do (aside from chasing routers):
These guys are commando troops. They are meant to take out the enemy's most valuable units, i.e. generals and elephants. They can defeat most other cavalry in melee (except cataphracts or Hetairoi of course), plus they are dedicated elephant-killers. They can even hold their own against infantry for some time. By contrast, Iberi Lanceari suck at elephant-killing and chasing of routing enemies.

[Aemilius Paulus]

plus they are dedicated elephant-killers.
You mean their javelins, right? Because they would not last a second in melee. And mounted skirmishers always have very little ammunition, not to mention 50 men is smaller than the usual 120 for levy skirmisher units (on large unit size of course).

Bottom line, they are not effective against elephants. Cantabrians are a better choice. Or any skirmisher unit. Or any falcata-and-soliferra unit of the Lusotannan roster (they have tons of high-attack, AP javelins plus decent armour and good attack with their AP weapons; on top of that, they have quite a few men per unit and are cheap - possibly best infantry of EB).

[A Very Super Market]

Besides which, if you're playing as the Lusos, you won't see any elephants but the one unit Carthage gets at the beginning.

[athanaric]

You mean their javelins, right? Because they would not last a second in melee. And mounted skirmishers always have very little ammunition, not to mention 50 men is smaller than the usual 120 for levy skirmisher units (on large unit size of course).

Actually, the ammo of mounted skirmishers varies a lot. Arachosians for examples have no less than 14 javelins. The elite guys I was referring to have six or eight javelins, which usually is enough to rout one unit of elephants or at least damage them heavily. Plus mounted skirmishers have the advantage of being able to outrun charging elephants. Their higher mobility enables them to catch elephants long before the latter reach your line.

[godsakes]

I think you mistake the purpose of the Ambakaro Epones. Like two other very similar units, the Taxilan Agema and the Hippeis Tarantinoi, they are very effective in what they are supposed to do (aside from chasing routers):
These guys are commando troops. They are meant to take out the enemy's most valuable units, i.e. generals and elephants. They can defeat most other cavalry in melee (except cataphracts or Hetairoi of course), plus they are dedicated elephant-killers. They can even hold their own against infantry for some time. By contrast, Iberi Lanceari suck at elephant-killing and chasing of routing enemies.

i'm not really convinced a luso army really needs to worry about elephants, in any case there are better value options for that role, the Caetranann light infantry has 6x spears and there are plently of cheaper light cavalry options armed with javlins.

as for taking out the general, i don't see how you could do it before a) getting swamped by the rest of their army b) or if both armies have engaged the general has probably charged at your lines/flank anyway and you'd be swamping them with infantry/spearmen and blocking their escape with any old unit of cavalry. (however i won't rule out this role until i've tried it myself)

[Cute Wolf]

Well, looking for that discussion, I also want to say that ambakaro Eppones are virtually worthless against Karthadast or Romaioi army, as your Lusotann FM has them in their command and that was free for charge.... but of course, that will be a different story if u faced tons of Celts... A suick work for them is a bloody swords, and for that hacking through celts job... Ambakaro Eppones is among one of the best (first softening with javelins, and after that... kill those pitiful shortswordsmen... I even have routed 4 units of celtic shortswords with just an half depleted Ambakaro Eppones

[athanaric]

Well, looking for that discussion, I also want to say that ambakaro Eppones are virtually worthless against Karthadast or Romaioi army, as your Lusotann FM has them in their command and that was free for charge.... [...]

On the contrary, they are very useful against Romaioi or Qarthadastim: they can chase and defeat generals, especially Romaioi FMs, in melee, and they can kill Carthaginian elephants with their javelins. When playing against the AI, I usually try to take out the general first, in order to get rid of the sometimes ridiculous morale boni he provides for his army. For this job, an extra unit of Ambakaro Epones comes in handy.

[Andronikos]

Playing a Bactrian campaign, I started using Arachosians rgularly and I am satisfied, they quickly get behind enemy, considerably weaken enemy line infantry (mostly phalanx) with javelins (I have better results with CC turned on) and then hunt routing units.
But I would like to know your opinion. What is the best javelin unit in the east - Arachosians, Dahae skirmishers, Taxilans, Peltastai, Thuerophoroi...?


I also noticed, that the light Indian spearmen are surprisingly strong, they were able to hold my infantry and cause serious casualties without losing many men.

[Phalanx300]

https://www.europabarbarorum.org/ebcomwww/i/units/sweboz/sweboz_ridanz.gif

The Ridanz(Sites name, in game name is different, could someone please update the names of the sites units?!)

They look pretty weak and they are in a sense, they are easilly underestimated, I remember from online matches their deadlyness. Against armoured units they are futile, though they did managed to keep Hetairoi stalled in combat for a long time!(Even longer if they can't charge properly) The real killers are their javelins! One depleted unit of them took out an entire Elephant unit! Or rather it killed half of them and the rast ran amok.

Their javelins are also good cavalry killers as long as they aren't that heavilly armoured.

[athanaric]

Playing a Bactrian campaign, I started using Arachosians rgularly and I am satisfied, they quickly get behind enemy, considerably weaken enemy line infantry (mostly phalanx) with javelins (I have better results with CC turned on) and then hunt routing units.
But I would like to know your opinion. What is the best javelin unit in the east - Arachosians, Dahae skirmishers, Taxilans, Peltastai, Thuerophoroi...?


I also noticed, that the light Indian spearmen are surprisingly strong, they were able to hold my infantry and cause serious casualties without losing many men.

Arachosians and Dahae are almost the same, with the Arachosians having slightly better defense stats (1 armour instead of zero). Taxilans are expensive elite and very tough in melee, for their use see my post above.
Peltastai are one of the best known units in the game, so there is probably no need to describe them. They are very weak vs. cavalry though, compared to other infantry of their class. Thureophoroi, OTOH, can be very nasty vs. cavalry.
Baktrian Hillmen are very useful skirmishers as they are inexpensive, have a large unit size, and AP axes for melee. Tabargâne Eranshahr (Eastern Axemen) have four javelins and a frightening range (~60.5 m). Hyrkanians, the Drapanai of the East (IMO), are more melee-oriented with "only" three javelins, but very high morale (15, same as Drapanai).

[A Very Super Market]

Peltastai are skirmishers, but with more holding ability. They aren't meant to fight cavalry, except maybe with javelins. Akonstistai stick around and throw javelins, Peltastai do the same, but charge in afterwards.

[Andy1984]

Today I was pleasantly surprised by the capabilities of my Equites Campanici. I used them (in several battles) to flank Getai and Lusotanni infantry that fought my main line. A single volley of javelins in their back, combined with a charge (if needs be) made almost everything rout. (Works best when deployed against lightly armoured units, shooting them in their flanks or backs... :skull:) If it weren't for my campanici, I would have lost that battle against the Getai (65% kills vs 79% at the end of the battle... bloody barbarians).

In the past the campanici already turned out to be brilliant infantry killers (even in hand to hand combat). I wonder what the probably superior Arachosians would do to eastern armies if deployed properly. I never even bothered with these guys, so I don't know.

[Mikhail Mengsk]

Tabargâne Eranshahr (Eastern Axemen) for Baktria are a very very good choice. They are perfect at flanking, weaken with javelins (awesome range) and finally charge in and cut enemy phalanxes into piecies. Axes rules.

[athanaric]

In the past the campanici already turned out to be brilliant infantry killers (even in hand to hand combat). I wonder what the probably superior Arachosians would do to eastern armies if deployed properly. I never even bothered with these guys, so I don't know.

Keep in mind that Arachosians are unarmoured, so they are weaker in melee than Equites Campanici. They got axes though which can be brutal against armoured units, like lance-armed heavy HAs.

[Andronikos]

I'm using Tabargâne Eranshahr (Eastern Axemen) and they perform good. They also get experience quickly. Unfortunately, they are primary target for enemy archers.
I believed that eastern axemen and baktrian light infantry are the same.
I will compare that three units - eastern axemen, baktrian light inf. and hyrkanian hillmen in few battles and than post my experience.

Thureophoroi are my basic mid-game phalanx-flank protecting infantry.

[satalexton]

bakrian infantry have less attack, but they still have AP axes, and more importantly, large shields. I use them to screen my catanks and spearhead wall assaults, which their resilence, large unit size, and large shields would make them an excellent first wave.

[antisocialmunky]

Eastern Axemen has slightly less morale but have higher mass and a ridiculous javelin range.(60m)

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

I like the Hyrkanian Hillmen more than the other two but I also love Eastern Axemen. For whatever reason, I find myself using the Hyrkanians as more of line units and Easterns as flankers but that might be just because I have very little melee infantry in my anti-Pahlav army as the Arche. Instead tons of Persian Archer Spearmen. The Baktrians are actually a skirmisher unit but they can do decently well in melee though not as well as the aforementioned. Havn't used them all that much but when I do it is purely as a support unit against infantry.

[John the Mad]

The samnite?(sp)medium infantry the romans can recruit.I'm tempted to say they are better then the regular roman army units i can recruit.I have four units of them and use them as a group to garrison newly conquered cities,put down rebel groups that pop up,and to fill out a legion to full strength when needed.

The first time i used them in battle i thought it a fluke,but after several battles with them,they seem to put more of a hurt on an enemy unit faster and with less casualties then their roman brothers in arms.I just recently had them take down the carthaginian faction heirs unit,he was very,very,good in his bonuses and my general had negative traits.They wiped out his unit,about 128 men,and suffered only 19 casualties in return.I was suprised because the first unit had been charged into from uphill,on the move,and his charge barely scratched them.They also tear to shreds the rebel roman units that pop up with four or five units in man on man battles and have done great against the couple of phalanxes they've faced.Though they haven't faced any celts.After each battle i usually have a minimum of 20-30 roman casualties per unit engaged playing with the largest unit setting(though in gaul i've had many units whittled down to 30 men during a battle)with them i can normally count their losses per unit on one hand and sometimes one finger.

This is one unit that has really taken me by suprise.I'm glad i recruited them instead of maxing out the units i could afford with one more each of hastati,principes,and triaii.

[satalexton]

wow, you ARE mad :clown:

[John the Mad]

wow, you ARE mad :clown:

Why because i bought them instead of the regular roman infantry or that i think their suprisingly good?

Or is it because i wear my socks as mittens?

I had to restart my game because of a corrupted save game but i bought four units early this time to fill out my legion.Those four took Tara almost single handidly.One unit was slaughtering a phalanx while fighting to get in the gate and it wasn't until the AI charged almost all its melee units and horse into it did they force it back out.It was down to about a third of its men and it never wavered while being surrounded on three sides and getting pummled.I charged the other three units one at a time to take back the gate routed the Epirion army and marched on the square.I had to bring up a unit of principes though to help them take it since by that time they were exhausted and there was a fresh hoplite unit holding the square,not to mention all the routers getting their bravery back.At the end of the battle the units were down to 53,59,101,and109 men respectively.There were 1200 enemy casualties at the end and i'd say about a 1000 were due to them.

Not bad considering they took their worst at the gate,which is almost always a meat grinder,while fighting into it,getting thrown out,then retaking it again.I couldn't even move my general up,to boost them,until they had secured the gate because they had several missle units hanging near the wall having a good old time shooting up the units outside of it.I had two units of slingers up near the wall to try to drive them off but their really finicky about when they will shoot over walls.I didn't want to chance a lucky barrage killing him.

[Olaf The Great]

I've had good experiences with the Casse Chariots, and considering chariots are notorious for being fail-mobiles with a bugged attack...well ok they do have a bugged attack.

Contrary to what everyone keeps saying, it seems to work much better for me when I -do- plow through Enemy lines, especially if it's a phalanx(Of course I would try to flank them) as it scatters the enemy so badly that a quick AP or .225 infantry charge can destroy them. Just make sure they don't get 'stuck" which is a major drawback.

They're like cheap elephants.

[athanaric]

I've had good experiences with the Casse Chariots, and considering chariots are notorious for being fail-mobiles with a bugged attack...well ok they do have a bugged attack.

Contrary to what everyone keeps saying, it seems to work much better for me when I -do- plow through Enemy lines, especially if it's a phalanx(Of course I would try to flank them) as it scatters the enemy so badly that a quick AP or .225 infantry charge can destroy them. Just make sure they don't get 'stuck" which is a major drawback.

They're like cheap elephants.

I think it is also noteworthy that they have a very high morale, very much unlike other chariots or elephants.

To be more specific:

Morale:

Cidainh: 16
Harmata Drepanephora: 6

Elephantes Hulaioi Liboukoi/Pilei Ya'ar Libim (Forest Elephants): 8
Elephantes Indikoi/Elephantes Kataphraktoi Indikoi: 7
Elephantes Liboukoi (Bush Elephants): 4

[antisocialmunky]

Yeah pretty much. They are good if they just hang around...

[Cute Wolf]

Yeah pretty much. They are good if they just hang around...

hang arround and u get those every kind of infantry bring u down very quickly..:clown:

they should keep moving or die

[jerby]

Okay, have been playing for while:

Surprisingly good:
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/epeiros/epe_agrianiai_pellek.gif
They're pretty cheap for the job they do, and in close melee they can take on pretty heavy units. When you're defending on the walls, you just don't want to run into these guys. (added bonusses are javelins offcourse)

But, after some good experiences with the agrianikoi, I'm not sure about these fellos:
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/getai/getai_thraikioi_rhomphaia.gif
They're a lot more expensive than the Agrianikoi, but don't really deliver. They're good shock-troops, but after that charge they die way to fast in melee.
But then in another battle, I was to preoccupied with other stuff, I just let them hack at some peltastai/thorakitai or so, and they wound up with 30 losses and 150 kills, on a flat plain, just h2h...

[Conradus]

That are the Thrakian Rhompadoroi (or whatever their name is), right?

Well then I disagree, my field armies have at least one of those and they're excellent flankers. They rip through any formation and I've even seen them take the enemies' general bodyguard head on and not falter.

[Moros]

That are the Thrakian Rhompadoroi (or whatever their name is), right?

Well then I disagree, my field armies have at least one of those and they're excellent flankers. They rip through any formation and I've even seen them take the enemies' general bodyguard head on and not falter.
Yeah usually they tear every unit apart when flanking. And most when head on except when facing large number unit. But then again using them against anything but heavily armoured units, is a waste.

[DaciaJC]

But, after some good experiences with the agrianikoi, I'm not sure about these fellos:
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/getai/getai_thraikioi_rhomphaia.gif
They're a lot more expensive than the Agrianikoi, but don't really deliver. They're good shock-troops, but after that charge they die way to fast in melee.
But then in another battle, I was to preoccupied with other stuff, I just let them hack at some peltastai/thorakitai or so, and they wound up with 30 losses and 150 kills, on a flat plain, just h2h...

I find them to be unsurprisingly *amazing*. I wouldn't put them in head-to-head combat, though, as that may leave them exposed to missile fire, which is their one weakness.

[A Very Super Market]

They are the top AP unit in EB, apart from the lowly slinger :P

Against normal enemies, the falx is of less use than a spear or sword. Peltastai don't wear too much armour, and carry swords, and have more men, making a head-on match with Rhomps seem horribly unbalanced. However, if you set the Rhomps loose on the flank of some Spartans, they will tear them apart. These guys even work against cataphracts.

[mountaingoat]

Against normal enemies, the falx is of less use than a spear or sword.

yeah i don't know about that , they seem to tear apart armored and non armored units, both online and in SP.

falx units just tend to cut through any armor like butter.

[A Very Super Market]

Well frankly, they're overkill for most levies without armour. But falxmen are so cheap that it doesn't really matter that they take more casualties than if they fought an armoured unit, so it doesn't make too much of a difference.

[DaciaJC]

Well frankly, they're overkill for most levies without armour. But falxmen are so cheap that it doesn't really matter that they take more casualties than if they fought an armoured unit, so it doesn't make too much of a difference.

I would consider sending Rhomps. against levies as overkill, not Drapanai. They [Drapanai/falxmen] boast a lethality of .26, so they can rip apart un-armored units just as easily as their AP ability allows them to do to armored units. I don't believe they would suffer more casualties by fighting levies, even if there was a significant difference in the number of enemy soldiers, because of the ease they would enjoy slaughtering un-armored troops.

[jerby]

Okay, Maybe I should elaborate on my choice, before people misunderstand me.

Rhompaiaporoi kill units, for sure. Put th em to good use and they shred phalangites, put them on walls and you almost get an insta-win. They're indeed elite.
However, whener I have one or two units in my campaigning army (currently heading towards Antiochia, whatever it's called) They always seem to get a lot more deaths than the other flanking infantry.
It's not a weird thing, offcourse, my peltastai makedonikoi or hypaspistai are tanks with all that armor... but after two three big battles my unit is practically gone...
So, all in all, for the money they cost, I just don't find them that much better than the Agrianikoi

[DaciaJC]

Ah, I understand. In fact, I've experienced your situation to some degree myself. But if we compare the numbers...


;451
type dacian infantry rhompharoi thorakitai
dictionary dacian_infantry_rhompharoi_thorakitai ; Thraikioi Rhomphaiaphoroi
category infantry
class heavy
voice_type Light_1
soldier dacian_infantry_rhompharoi_thorakitai, 30, 0, 1.18
mount_effect elephant -1
attributes sea_faring, hide_improved_forest, hardy
formation 1.6, 1.4, 2.4, 2.4, 4, square
stat_health 1, 1
stat_pri 11, 8, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, slashing, sword, 0 ,0.285
stat_pri_attr ap
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, no, no, none, 0 ,0.1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 12, 11, 1, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 4
stat_ground 0, 0, -2, -2
stat_mental 15, impetuous, trained
stat_charge_dist 40
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 2899, 725, 100, 25, 2899
ownership gauls, scythia, slave, britons, germans, romans_julii, romans_brutii, romans_scipii, numidia, macedon, thrace, greek_cities, egypt, carthage, spain, seleucid, dacia, pontus, parthia, armenia, saba


;356
type hellenistic infantry agrianaipelekephoroi
dictionary hellenistic_infantry_agrianaipelekephoroi ; Agrianikoi Pelekephoroi
category infantry
class light
voice_type Light_1
soldier hellenistic_infantry_agrianaipelekephoroi_asturainaxemen, 40, 0, 1.15
officer ebofficer_hellenic_officer
attributes sea_faring, hide_improved_forest, can_sap, very_hardy, hide_long_grass
formation 1.2, 1.6, 2.4, 3.2, 4, square
stat_health 1, 1
stat_pri 6, 8, javelin, 47.3, 2, thrown, simple, piercing, spear, 10 ,1
stat_pri_attr prec, thrown
stat_sec 9, 8, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, slashing, axe, 0 ,0.165
stat_sec_attr ap
stat_pri_armour 9, 10, 3, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 2
stat_ground 0, 0, 1, 0
stat_mental 15, impetuous, trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 1833, 458, 65, 623, 1833
ownership macedon, thrace

The Rhomphaiaphoroi have 12 armor, 11 defense skill, and 1 shield.

The Agrianikoi have 9 armor, 10 defense skill, and 3 shield.

The Rhomphaiaphoroi should theoretically take fewer casualties in combat... except in the case when they are taking missile fire from the front, in which case the Agrianikoi would fare better.

So you may say that Rhomps. simply aren't worth it in terms of money when they need retraining so often... I tend to look more at the effectiveness of the unit in question. Yes, the Agrianikoi may indeed take fewer casualties overall, but I am certain that they did not kill nearly as many enemies as the Rhomphaiaphoroi, and so their kill/death ratio (the biggest thing I factor into a unit's "effectiveness") is lesser than that of the Rhomps.

[antisocialmunky]

The super high-end assault infantry isn't really worth it all that much. Usually throwaway AP units do equally well.

[Cute Wolf]

The super high-end assault infantry isn't really worth it all that much. Usually throwaway AP units do equally well.

Throwaway assault corps are waste in sieges, as they will become instant victim against towers. BTW, Romphaiakoi aren't "surprisingly good" because they are certain elite troops.

[athanaric]

Throwaway assault corps are waste in sieges, as they will become instant victim against towers. BTW, Romphaiakoi aren't "surprisingly good" because they are certain elite troops.

Plus, don't underestimate the fun factor. Also, elite assault troops (specifically Rhomphaiaphoroi, Kluddargos, and Sreni Pattya Yoddaha) are very useful against cataphracts, especially the insanely armoured Baktrian, Hai, and Pahlavân FMs.

[paramedicguyer]

Cohors Imperatoria...nuff said.

[antisocialmunky]

Throwaway assault corps are waste in sieges, as they will become instant victim against towers. BTW, Romphaiakoi aren't "surprisingly good" because they are certain elite troops.

Those elite assault infantries still get mowed down by tower and archer fire. I use heavily armored normal guys for that job, Why have 1 when you can have 2 and spend an extra turn starving out the garrison by building an extra tower?

[Watchman]

...you mean arrows actually *work* on the kinds of troops the term "fancy elite assault units" mainly covers...?

[antisocialmunky]

If you're talking about the dudes with big two handers, yes.

[mountaingoat]

http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/download.php?id=8363

[DaciaJC]

If you're talking about the dudes with big two handers, yes.

I wouldn't describe those units as "assault troops". No, always use them to flank. Heavily-armored elites, such as Peltastai Makedonikoi, Solduros, etc. are better suited to attacking walls (as I believe you mentioned).

[antisocialmunky]

I've also seen those guys tear into phalanxes from the front and win if the phalanx spread out a little bit. Fairly impressive.

[John the Mad]

I just got Pedites Extrondarii ,in my current game,and i still prefer Samnicti hastati

[Rahwana]

Surprisingly good = Teceitos
These troops are capable to rip apart my legionaries :furious3: but if I using them, I also rip through those pesky hoplite and phalanxes. Relatively cheap, and capable to stand against better equipped troops.

Surprisingly bad = Pezoi Brettoi
These Brutus infantry is too exspensive and many fell victim against hoplites. Pretty bad, since heavy infantry swordsmen should beat spearmen. Hastati samnitici and pedites extraordinarii are more exspensive, but they bring statisfied results.

[Ludens]

These Brutus infantry is too exspensive and many fell victim against hoplites. Pretty bad, since heavy infantry swordsmen should beat spearmen.

First of all, Pezoi Brettioi are not truly heavy infantry, more medium infantry. Hoplites are far more heavily armoured. Secondly, the "swords beat spears"-argument is nonsense. We had the discussion some time back on the forum and, although not everyone agreed, the team's position is that even when all other circumstances were equal, swordsmen did not automatically beat spearmen.

[athanaric]

First of all, Pezoi Brettioi are not truly heavy infantry, more medium infantry. Hoplites are far more heavily armoured.

Interestingly, Pezoi Brettioi are classified as "light infantry" within the game. So that probably further decreases their ability to go toe to toe with heavies.
If somebody wants units that can beat Hoplites head on, I'd suggest Tekastos. Or Worgozez - probably the single best unit in the game vs. Hoplites (except perhaps the two-handed elite guys).

[Rahwana]

Interestingly, Pezoi Brettioi are classified as "light infantry" within the game. So that probably further decreases their ability to go toe to toe with heavies.
If somebody wants units that can beat Hoplites head on, I'd suggest Tekastos. Or Worgozez - probably the single best unit in the game vs. Hoplites (except perhaps the two-handed elite guys).

Well, I know that those Pezoi Brettioi are light infantry, very much same as hastati, but the latter are capable to take down hoplite single handedly.

[Watchman]

For some reason their defense statline is also utter crap and direly needs fixing. This is what the meaningful bits should look like in the EDU:
;533
type italic infantry bruttian
dictionary italic_infantry_bruttian ; Bruttian Infantry
category infantry
class light
voice_type Heavy_1
soldier roman_infantry_hastatiearly, 40, 0, 1.18, 0.25
mount_effect chariot +2
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, hardy, mercenary_unit
formation 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, square
stat_health 1, 1
stat_pri 4, 4, pilum, 35, 2, thrown, blade, piercing, spear, 15 ,1
stat_pri_attr prec, thrown, ap
stat_sec 10, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, slashing, sword, 0 ,0.13
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 9, 9, 3, flesh
...
stat_cost 1, 1275, 319, 50, 70, 1275
...

[Ludens]

Interestingly, Pezoi Brettioi are classified as "light infantry" within the game. So that probably further decreases their ability to go toe to toe with heavies.

The "light" and "heavy" classifications do not affect unit abilities. They are tags for the A.I. to determine its recruitment and positioning.


For some reason their defense statline is also utter crap and direly needs fixing. This is what the meaningful bits should look like in the EDU:

Thanks for the fix!

[antisocialmunky]

Yeah, thanks. Also, I'm not sure why anyone would prefer Samnite Spearmen to the Pedites Extraordinarii. They are different units. One is a heavy assault unit and the other is a good fast spearman.

[Watchman]

The "light" and "heavy" classifications do not affect unit abilities. They are tags for the A.I. to determine its recruitment and positioning.Also, IIRC the "class" of many Italic and Roman units was slightly counter-intuitive in order to convince the tactical AI to form decent triplex acies deployements.

[APX]

During my new Getai campaign I have new opinions on some units.

Surprisingly good: Komatai, Drapanai, Komatai Epilektoi, the Getai bodyguard unit, and Skuda Baexdzhyntae.

Surprisingly bad: Boii Cingetos, Getikoi Stratiotai, and Komatai Thorakitai Stratiotai.

Refer here. (https://www.europabarbarorum.com/factions_getai_units.html)

[WinsingtonIII]

During my new Getai campaign I have new opinions on some units.

Surprisingly good: Komatai, Drapanai, Komatai Epilektoi, the Getai bodyguard unit, and Skuda Baexdzhyntae.

Surprisingly bad: Boii Cingetos, Getikoi Stratiotai, and Komatai Thorakitai Stratiotai.

Refer here. (https://www.europabarbarorum.com/factions_getai_units.html)

What's so surprisingly bad about the Dacian light and heavy phalanxes? They're some of the few units in your armies early on that have enough armor to not be shot to death by missiles, and as long as you put them in guard mode they can easily hold true phalanxes, hoplites, or any other heavy line infantry that's bothering you from the front while you flank them, which is a useful role to have. Admittedly, they aren't the best heavy spearmen, but are they are good as long as they are used only for what they are meant for. That being said, I would never use more than 4 units (and usually more like 2) of this type in a Getai army because you have so many other troops that are great in many different roles, whereas the phalanxes are more limited in terms of versatility.

[antisocialmunky]

Well, if you're accustomed to playing with hoplites, those Getai Phalanxes function much like them and even have the high density. The only different is you have ridiculous AP on your secondary sword.

[Watchman]

No you don't.

[DaciaJC]

The only different is you have ridiculous AP on your secondary sword.

No, the Getic phalanxes don't have AP. Their secondary weapon, like the Komatai, is the sica, which isn't AP.

That doesn't make them any less *awesome*, though. They are your best line infantry, well able to hold anything attacking from the front in place so that you can flank with Drapanai and the like.

And to disagree with WinsingtonIII here: I think that the Komatai Thorakitai Stratiotai (Dacian Heavy Phalanx) is among the best heavy spearmen units available.

And as for the Boii Cingetos: admittedly, I haven't used them yet, but I might have an idea on how you (APX) tried to employ them. They are not meant to be thrown headlong into the frontal assault. With only 7 armor, they are prone to death by missiles. Rather, use them to flank the enemy.

[APX]

And as for the Boii Cingetos: admittedly, I haven't used them yet, but I might have an idea on how you (APX) tried to employ them. They are not meant to be thrown headlong into the frontal assault. With only 7 armor, they are prone to death by missiles. Rather, use them to flank the enemy.

I had about 5 units of them and 2 slingers in the province Scorcouw while it was being besieged by KH. The battle was a slaughter. Their Hoplitai Haploi and Hellenic skirmishers easily killed my Boii Cingetos, even though my Boii Cingetos had two experience.


I'll admit to not having much experience with the Dacian light and heavy phalanx. I've only used them in a couple of battles so far, and each time I have tried to use them as line troops troops they are outdone by Drapanai or Komatai.

[Andy1984]

I just got Pedites Extrondarii ,in my current game,and i still prefer Samnicti hastati
:dizzy2: I find hastati samnitici to be expensive compared to principes and hastati. Cost/quality-seen, I still prefer the pedites extraordinarii over the hastati samnitici. The latter may be fast, have a better stamina and have cool-looking armor. But the former has (1) a bigger shield, (2) a higher missile attack, (3) have the cool and deadly kopiis-sword, (4) have more armor and a decent morale. Not too mention the fact they look even cooler than these overpriced hastati samnitici.

My reliance upon these pedites (and other roman units) instead of hastati samnitici may have to do something with the fact I don't really find any use for mobile light spearmen. If you have to take out heavy cavalry, I rely on cheaper principes (before and after camillian reforms) or on decent triarii. Hastati samnitici, neither cheap nor heavy, would be my very, very last choice.

[satalexton]

i had bad run-ins when using them too, galatian shortswordmen are so much better than them.

[DaciaJC]

I had about 5 units of them and 2 slingers in the province Scorcouw while it was being besieged by KH. The battle was a slaughter. Their Hoplitai Haploi and Hellenic skirmishers easily killed my Boii Cingetos, even though my Boii Cingetos had two experience.

:shrug: I suppose the skirmishers took a big chunk out of their numbers. Plus, the Boii Cingetos aren't at their best in street battles, where they are forced to attack the enemy from the front. I wouldn't discount any unit on the basis of one battle.


I'll admit to not having much experience with the Dacian light and heavy phalanx. I've only used them in a couple of battles so far, and each time I have tried to use them as line troops troops they are outdone by Drapanai or Komatai.

Certainly, Drapanai, and possibly Komatai, will get more kills than the phalanxes. They'll also get ripped to pieces by missiles, i.e. arrows/stones and the javelins that often precede an enemy charge. The phalanxes can absorb those missiles quite nicely, owing to their substantial armor, and keep the enemy engaged while you swing around with those Drapanai and other flankers to inflict massive damage.

[Rabhadh]

I'm gonna throw a curve ball and say these guys:

Katpatuka Asabara (Cappadocian Medium Cavalry)
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/pontos/pon_katpatuka_asabara.gif

"Why god why ohgod?" I think is what those gasps of extonishment mean, seeing as they carry overhand spears and are quite expensive, well its just the way I use them. As heavy cavarly killers.

I stand them behind my pontic heavy cavarly (Bodygaurds or anything with a xyston/kontos obviously) and after the charge is made on the enemy horse and both units are in melee, I alt-click with these fine persian men to hold the enemy in place with their deadly axes while the first unit pulls back to set up another charge. They're basically a support unit, and they don't leave the side of heavier cavarly unless the enemy is routing. Think of it like a tag team.

You see these fellas consistently hit above their weight, and when comming up against goddamned cataphracts and nomad bodygaurds they've saved my life (and the lives of some of Pontos' finest sons) by preventing those deadly units from being able to charge more than once. They're fast and don't tire easily too, so they're useful for countering medium horse archers too.

[Apázlinemjó]

I'm gonna throw a curve ball and say these guys:

Katpatuka Asabara (Cappadocian Medium Cavalry)
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/pontos/pon_katpatuka_asabara.gif

"Why god why ohgod?" I think is what those gasps of extonishment mean, seeing as they carry overhand spears and are quite expensive, well its just the way I use them. As heavy cavarly killers.

I stand them behind my pontic heavy cavarly (Bodygaurds or anything with a xyston/kontos obviously) and after the charge is made on the enemy horse and both units are in melee, I alt-click with these fine persian men to hold the enemy in place with their deadly axes while the first unit pulls back to set up another charge. They're basically a support unit, and they don't leave the side of heavier cavarly unless the enemy is routing. Think of it like a tag team.

You see these fellas consistently hit above their weight, and when comming up against goddamned cataphracts and nomad bodygaurds they've saved my life (and the lives of some of Pontos' finest sons) by preventing those deadly units from being able to charge more than once. They're fast and don't tire easily too, so they're useful for countering medium horse archers too.

Agreed, in the past, I disliked them as they were worthless as "hammer", but later in my pontic campaigns I found them as an excellent "anti-cataphract and such" units. It's sad that they are so expensive, because I can't really afford to buy them in MP.

[satalexton]

they -are- considerably armoured afterall... and their role's very limited...anti-catanks and chasing fleeing dogs...

[antisocialmunky]

Any cav can be used to charge in behind the heavies to help break by outnumbering.

[Apázlinemjó]

Any cav can be used to charge in behind the heavies to help break by outnumbering.

Yeah but they are quite deadly in melee with their ap axes, and while the heavies try to get away from these guys they can keep up in speed and chew them down.


they -are- considerably armoured afterall... and their role's very limited...anti-catanks and chasing fleeing dogs...

That's why they get the medium cavalry category. And it's enough, if you can stop the enemy's heavy cavalry to get your line from rear then it's all right, isn't it?

[Andronikos]

Is the Median medium cavalry the same?

[Watchman]

For the most part, though they're of Regular rather than Veteran base quality and don't have the leg armour. Ditto Asiatikoi Hippeis. The Hai Aspet Hetsomethings are also Veteran quality, but don't have the leg defenses either.

[strategos roma]

I know this has been said before, but hoplitai haploi is simply incredible. They can hold a line fairly long and are probably the best levy unit in game. I just wish that AS can recruit them.

[Apraxiteles]

Isn't it amazing that the CASSE can recruit them in ALEXANDRIA-ESCHATE, but the Seleukids can't recruit them in Hellas?

[satalexton]

hellenes are a minority population there, the seleukids would want them as pikemen rather than wasting them as militia. Casse, on the other hand, are conquerers and would want to keep their subjects as nothing more than militia in dire situations.

[darius_d]

It's excellent thread.

Surprisingly bad: cohors reformata and imperatoria.

These are boys to beat by all: they are more numbered than typical medium opponent unit but without chevrons they perform quite poorly - nothing to do with famous legionaries efficiency.

So indeed making any comparisons to them has little value, they are not good reference.

Surprisingly good:
Iberi Scutari
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/kart-hadast/iberian_scutarii.gif

These guys are not that expensive - 1785 mnai, and have decent stats, but somehow they beat many other units of better stats, and perform overall better than many theoretically better units from Carthaginian or Lusotannan roster.

For example they can beat most units costing about 2000 mnai, medium phalanx 1 on 1 from the front (if they have access to their sides), and then they kill many % of expensive elites before they die or rout.
In some cases they perform better against elite infantry than theoretically more suitable (and expensive) Iberian Assault Infantry (for ex against Inf Guild Warriors - Baktria).

Indeed they perform better than expected against any type of troops, and being spearmen they are suitable against cavalry and chariots. On top of that they are fast moving to chase units and do not get exhausted quickly like heavy units, which is important in crucial moments.

All this makes them very versatile infantry suitable for any role on battlefield.
Their main weakness is vulnerability on missiles (they don't have heavy armor) and then perhaps not the highest morale. But after all - they are not elite.

Another good:
Iberian Assault Infantry
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/kart-hadast/iberian_assault_infantry.gif

Exclusively Carthaginian unit. Again excellent ratio: price/effectiveness.

They beat most infantry units available in the game, for example any roman infantry unit 1 on 1, all phalanxes units 1 on1 (if they have access to their sides). Only most expensive infantry elites can beat them, but it means it must be much more expensive infantry than 2239 mnai.
They are good against missiles because of armor.

Their weaknesses are: - they got exhausted quickly as heavy inf, they must avoid chariots and they are less effective against cav then spearmen.
The best use is against infantry lines of any type.

[Mikhail Mengsk]

Cohors Imperatoria can hold aganist almost all i've experienced, without any chevron. They make a good amount of kills, they have numbers, and they are pretty cheap for their use, i won't accuse them to be surprisingly bad...

[Watchman]

IMO people complain about them mostly because their expectations are much too high and based off the exploits of hardened veteran legions under brilliant commanders...
Factually, the Legions were so good because they had no real weaknesses (save for those inherent to all heavy infantry, natch) and formed the sharp end of a very well-honed and well-developed military-industrial complex. The individual soldier wasn't really all that hot, doubly so compared to honest-to-God warrior aristocracies and suchlike; but he was well trained to operate as part of a highly disciplined and very well equipped army with excellent support structures, and on the whole easily replaced - particularly under the Late Republic the various wannabe potentates with the cash for it seem to have been able to keep pulling out full Legions almost from thin air, but naturally enough raw ones weren't anything to write home about.

Also Spartacus could perhaps tell you a fair bit about the FABULOUS QUALITY of the Legions, as could the Cimbri and Teutones. And several Pontic generals.

[darius_d]

you know guys, in MP battles I eat them for breakfast with my scutari :yes::laugh4:
My 80 guys easily beat 90 legionairies, no matter if they are on guard mode or not. Poor guys.

They seem to be like having rather quantity advantage compared to many others which have a bit more quality...
I exaggerate, but only a bit.

Accounts of performance under Marius, Sulla, Caesar, and others - legionairies were able to repel attacks and stay victorious with minimum losses despite usually outnumbered, and sometimes surprised in the trap.
It was not just commander who made a difference.

I don't expect superhumans, but for me they have reversed features in EB 1.2., which is pitiful.

[Moros]

you know guys, in MP battles I eat them for breakfast with my scutari :yes::laugh4:
My 80 guys easily beat 90 legionairies, no matter if they are on guard mode or not. Poor guys.

They seem to be like having rather quantity advantage compared to many others which have a bit more quality...
I exaggerate, but only a bit.

Accounts of performance under Marius, Sulla, Caesar, and others - legionairies were able to repel attacks and stay victorious with minimum losses despite usually outnumbered, and sometimes surprised in the trap.
It was not just commander who made a difference.

I don't expect superhumans, but for me they have reversed features in EB 1.2., which is pitiful.

Well the losses recorded by ancient historians or the generals themselves (Caesar) are usually not to be trusted that much though.

[darius_d]

Well the losses recorded by ancient historians or the generals themselves (Caesar) are usually not to be trusted that much though.

Of course, but the same historians agree romans usually fought outnumbered.
Which brings us to the same conclusion.

[Watchman]

Remember the couple of armies the Cimbri and Teutones wiped out *before* Marius was handed that job...? And let's not even get started on what Spartacus managed.

Seeing as how even during the Empire the actual observance of an individual legion's theoretical "staying in shape" drill, training and practice was in practice entirely dependent upon the willingness and energy of their CO to enforce those... Particularly problematic in peaceful times and regions.
For example I've read of this one guy who arrived at his post as the commander of a legion stationed in Syria or thereabouts (during one of those lulls in the sporadic wars with the Iranians natch) only to find out his new underlings were by *far* more competent in gambling and whoring than soldiering.
So he took them to military exercises in the Armenian highlands... :whip:
So yeah.

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

You mean Lucullus?

[Watchman]

Damned if I can remember out of hand.

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

Doesn't matter - Fact is that Romani legionaries are sucky troops and should be nerfed to be true to their barbaric nature :clown:.

[Watchman]

I'll have you remember here that EB barbarians are pretty hardcore. :smash:

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

I'll have you remember here that EB barbarians are pretty hardcore. :smash:
Nah, there is no barbarian but the ONE TRUE Barbaroi. And they are effeminate, short and weak.

[Watchman]

:idea2: ...the Itchy Dwarves (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=75358) ?

[Skullheadhq]

:idea2: ...the Itchy Dwarves (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=75358) ?

Noes! The ONE TRUE BARBARIAN

[Watchman]

...Conan ? :knight:

[antisocialmunky]

Epic :balloon: for reference to epic AAR. :) I'm tempted to bump it for the sheer brilliance of it.

[Andy1984]

http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.net/pics/Info/hellenistic_chariot_scythed_INFO.jpg

These guys are the true killers of my Seleucid armies. While they may get bogged down in masses of heavy infantry (which you shouldn't encounter that much in the east), they're absolute killers when chasing routers. Their ability to wipe out generals, as well as to scare infantry makes them perfect for other tasks as well, including flanking or breaking up the formation of enemy infantry before a cavalry charge. Combine all this with their two hit points, and an upkeep of only 900, and you should be capable to pull off some victories and experience points with them.

[antisocialmunky]

Don't charge cataphracts with them. They die in hilarious fashion.

[Rahwana]

http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.net/pics/Info/hellenistic_chariot_scythed_INFO.jpg

The very problem is if they get some casualities, they tend to rout much quicker than usual...

[Andronikos]

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/baktria/bak_baktrioi_hippeis.gif

Besides awesome Hetairoi Kataphraktoi and armoured horse archers, these plain-looking guys make Baktria a cavalry superpower. They have powerful charge, secondary AP axe, speed, stamina and low cost. They can cause massive cassualties or routs to heavy infantry when back-charging, against lighter ones frontal charge works too, perform well in melee and catch routers.