Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition

[antisocialmunky]

Lets have a new thread for this!

Anatolikoi Phyletai

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/eleutheroi/anatolia/rebel_anatolian_hillmen.gif

Basically like Drapnai in Anatolia except with 40 more people and some armor. And unlike their Kappadocian neighbors, they have AP. I first encountered them with some Spartans and they won that fight. Scary.

[desert]

I once beat 150 of those with 40 spartans, although I was kind of cheating (by yelling "This is Sparta!" and alt-clicking on them over and over again).

Of course, the Drapanai belong here. They're sort of like kamikaze units: they die like flies, but not before they take the enemy with them.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/getai/getai_drapanai.gif

[Wausser]

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/baktria/bak_pezhetairoi.gif

I find the Pezhetairoi(Baktria Campaign) pretty bad the way I fight my battles(Defending in a city with stone walls) as they loose significantly more men then the Pantodapoi Phalangitai when fighting against the same unit...

[Subedei]

I find the Pezhetairoi(Baktria Campaign) pretty bad the way I fight my battles(Defending in a city with stone walls) as they loose significantly more men then the Pantodapoi Phalangitai when fighting against the same unit...
I think you are not supposed to use them ON the walls, as they are not flexible enough up there to use their strength being their spear/sarissa. I usually guard my city center or the gates with them. There they do a pretty good job.

[Wausser]

Yeah that's why I said, the way I fight my battles, I beat the enemy at the walls, not in the city herself, I'd better go for the Klerouchoi Phalangitai or Pantodapoi Phalangitai since they give way better performance at the walls...

[Mediolanicus]

That doesn't make the Pezhetairoi a surprisingly bad unit.

That just makes you a surprisingly bad tactician.

j/k ;)

[Hax]

Well, Pantadapoi have AP axes after all, so this explains why they fare pretty fair on the walls.

[SwissBarbar]

I once beat 150 of those with 40 spartans, although I was kind of cheating (by yelling "This is Sparta!" and alt-clicking on them over and over again).

Of course, the Drapanai belong here. They're sort of like kamikaze units: they die like flies, but not before they take the enemy with them.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/getai/getai_drapanai.gif


:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:


I have to add the uirodusios


https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/arverni/arverni_uirodusios.gif


though they're not as good as the gaesatae, they still are extremely useful, for they scare enemies enough to make them flee much sooner as usual

[blank]

I have to add the uirodusios

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/arverni/arverni_uirodusios.gif

though they're not as good as the gaesatae, they still are extremely useful, for they scare enemies enough to make them flee much sooner as usual

Plus they're naked!

[machinor]

In the old "Surprisingly bad units"-Thread I wrote some very bad things about Thorakitai, that Thureophoroi can accomplish all of their tasks for less money. I stand corrected. In my current Epirus Campaign I use them extensively to fight the more mobile forces of Romani and Celts in Northern Italy and the Hoplite- and Thorakitai-armies of the KH. Recently, as the Seleukids betrayed me and invaded my Makedonian homelands in a field-manual-Blitzkrieg, my Thorakitai even did quite well as anvil, holding up against a Seleukid phalanx line (I put them in guard mode).
So I recall my statement, that Thorakitai would be surprisingly bad units. They are unsurprisingly good units.

Surprisingly good units in my Italian campaigns as Epirus were these two:
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/epeiros/epe_lucanian_spearmen.gif
Aichmetai Leukanoi (Lucanian Spearmen)
They are excellent flanking infantry comparable to Peltastai and they can even hold a line (if only against non-elites), plus their spear gives them some stopping power against cavalry.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/epeiros/epe_hippakontistai.gif
Hippakontistai
Seriously, they were all the cavalry I needed against the Romani. It takes a bit of practice to use them to the utmost efficiency but they are great for harassing the enemies heavy infantry, then driving off the enemy missle troops and then coming back to give the final blow to the enemy's main line by charging its back.

[SwissBarbar]

Plus they're naked!

Yeah, that's why they are so scary. It seems that Penisses were were very terrible those ages.

[Malrubius]

https://img220.imageshack.us/img220/4410/archerspearmenuw1.th.jpg (https://img220.imageshack.us/my.php?image=archerspearmenuw1.jpg)https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/baktria/bak_eransahr-arsh.gifhttps://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/saba/saba_northern_arab_levy.gif

{arabian_missile_northern_arab_levy} Giusim 'Arabim Tsphonim (Arabian Light Archer-Spearmen)
{eastern_missile_eransahr_arshtbara} Nîzagân-î Êrânshahr (Persian Archer-Spearmen)

Archer-Spearmen
Whether they're called Giusim 'Arabim Tsphonim or Nîzagân-î Êrânshahr, I have found them indispensable when playing as Baktria and Saba. They are versatile and cheap, very important qualities when you're fighting the Seleukids or Ptolemies, who can afford to send stack after stack at you. I'm outnumbered and outclassed in almost every battle against them, so every man has to pull his weight and then some!

Behind pikes, they can shoot it out with horse archers. Their arrows demolish pantadopoi and other unarmored or lightly armored foes without taking a scratch. This lets them build up experience, too. When sallying, they can pepper the backs of the more expensive phalangites as they run to take up defensive positions on a slope outside the town, and can then retreat behind the walls and do it again next season. When assaulting a town in a pitched battle, they can be used as fodder once they're out of arrows. With their spears, they can even bring down cavalry or at least keep them busy while you charge with yours. Once they've exhausted their arrows, they can flank, or chase routing foes. Don't expect miracles from them, but they deliver solid performance and are useful in all phases of the battle. To me, they also seem more steady and less prone to routing than my more expensive levies and the b'nei shevet skirmishers.

Tip for use: Leave them on guard, not skirmish mode, unless you want them to wrap around a phalanx. Then make sure both are off and watch them poke the phalangites in the back. Another great tactic for fighting the phalanx is to split them in two directions on either side of the slower-moving phalangites, turn off fire at will, leave skirmish on, wait until the phalanxes have their backs turned, then fire away.

[athanaric]

And unlike their Kappadocian neighbors, they have AP

Actually, Katpatuka Zanteush have AP axes. They also have javelins, which makes them better against Phalangitai.

One of my surprisingly good units would be a related one, the Kôfyâren-î Verkhânâ (Hyrkanian Hillmen). Although their armour is pathetic, they are excellent for taking out heavy cavalry of all kinds. Plus they are good vs. phalanx (again, Javelins+AP axe) and readily available as mercs.

[bigmilt16]

I once beat 150 of those with 40 spartans, although I was kind of cheating (by yelling "This is Sparta!" and alt-clicking on them over and over again).

Of course, the Drapanai belong here. They're sort of like kamikaze units: they die like flies, but not before they take the enemy with them.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/getai/getai_drapanai.gif


Ugh, I hate those little turds. They ripped an entire legion of fresh recruits from Capua down by half with their ferocious swing. They are always a favored merc unit of mine when in N. Greece and Illyria.

[Zett]

Hippeis Xystophoroi

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/koinon-hellenon/kh_hippeis_xystophoroi.gif

They are the best cavalry unit awailable. Faster then Hetairoi and not so expensive like them. Good armor and a good charge. And a big area of recruitment.

https://img10.imageshack.us/img10/6538/hippeisxystophoroigs8.jpg (https://img10.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hippeisxystophoroigs8.jpg)
https://img10.imageshack.us/img10/hippeisxystophoroigs8.jpg/1/w1024.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img10/hippeisxystophoroigs8.jpg/1/)

[A Very Super Market]

That doesn't seem very big...

I would contribute, but I don't know how to get those pictures.

[Zett]

The unitpictures are from www.europabarbarorum.com (go to "factions", select a faction and go to "units"). And the map is from the recruitmentviewer which was within your EB1.1 installer.

And big...yes big is relative:sweatdrop:, big for elitecavaleryunits:yes:.

[machinor]

Hm. I neither used (never played KH so far) nor encountered them. They look like the KH-specific Hippeis Thessalikoi or Agema Klerouchikon Hippeon. Are they about they same stat-wise?

[athanaric]

Are they about they same stat-wise?

Roughly. Hippeis Thessalikoi are a little better stat-wise. Also the colour of their horses is different.

Speaking of KH's cavalry, I would also say that Lonchophoroi Hippeis are very good for their upkeep.

[A Very Super Market]

Thanks Zett

Your unit looks cool, but the horsey has no armour! Wait a minute...
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/romani/roman_auxilia_eq_extraord.gif
Eqvites Extraordinarii
Strange...

And these guys
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/eleutheroi/eastern/rebel_daha_skirmish_cav.gif

Not Kuna!!
Yes, him. They would be decent in Europe, but stepp warfare is horrible for Javelin skirmishers. No armour, bad range, the Dahae riders are a lot better. High upkeep too.

[Zett]

About the stats...

From up to down: Hippies Xystophoroi (KH), Hippies Thessalikoi (Makedonia, Epeiros and KH), Agema Klerouchikon Hippeon (Ptolemaioi), Eqvites Extraordinarii (Romani), Hetairoi, Molosson Agema (Epeiros)

https://img49.imageshack.us/img49/5838/neubitmapto2.png (https://img49.imageshack.us/my.php?image=neubitmapto2.png)
https://img49.imageshack.us/img49/neubitmapto2.png/1/w640.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img49/neubitmapto2.png/1/)
(damn, its too small:oops:. I hope u have good eyes)

Armored Horses...one of the advantages of a horse is, that you can eat it if it dies during battle. No armor means you need no can opener:smash:.

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

Molosson Agema. Good Stamina Shock Cavalry.

[Ca Putt]

does the Eqvites Extraordinarii have any advantage over the Hippies Thessalikoi? the EE does not seem to pay off in contrast to the others.

[machinor]

Of course not... it's Roman cavalry after all. The only advantage would probably be the wider AOR, as Hippeis Thessalikoi are (as the name suggests) only recruitable in Thessalia.

I agree on the Lochnophoroi Hippeis and the Molosson Agema, but they're both no really *surprisingly* good.

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

Well at the first glance, when I compared Molosson to Hetairoi I concluded they were wholly inferior in armour. However having shock cavalry that doesn't tire after two or three attacks or a brief fight is a real winner for Epeiros.

[athanaric]

You miss the point of the Daha Skirmishers, Super Market. They are not supposed to fight Horse Archers, but rather heavy cavalry or infantry. Unlike the light HAs with their daggers or spears, Daha Skirmishers can be really dangerous even to bodyguard cavalry because they have AP axes (and javelins are better against armour than arrows). In fact, I would rather list them as a "surprisingly good" unit.

[machinor]

Well at the first glance, when I compared Molosson to Hetairoi I concluded they were wholly inferior in armour. However having shock cavalry that doesn't tire after two or three attacks or a brief fight is a real winner for Epeiros.
That's true, on the downside however they can only be recruited in Ambrakia.

[SwebozGaztiz]

I think a really good unit would be the hoplitai haploi, theyre really good, ive been using them on my Koinon Hellenon campaign, also i think the machimoi hippeis are really good to be light cavalry, they have those ap axes for close combat, although if you leave them for too much they will die easily but they can fare well. And well also two of my favorite units are the hoplitai and the teurophoroi they can be first line units and hold them quite well

[Sarkiss]

About the stats...

From up to down: Hippies Xystophoroi (KH), Hippies Thessalikoi (Makedonia, Epeiros and KH), Agema Klerouchikon Hippeon (Ptolemaioi), Eqvites Extraordinarii (Romani), Hetairoi, Molosson Agema (Epeiros)

https://img49.imageshack.us/img49/5838/neubitmapto2.png (https://img49.imageshack.us/my.php?image=neubitmapto2.png)
https://img49.imageshack.us/img49/neubitmapto2.png/1/w640.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img49/neubitmapto2.png/1/)
(damn, its too small:oops:. I hope u have good eyes)

Armored Horses...one of the advantages of a horse is, that you can eat it if it dies during battle. No armor means you need no can opener:smash:.
where did you get this file from?:huh2:
looks neat

[TheStranger]

In your start menu where you have installed EB there is beside the recruitment viewer the units list and unit compare ;)

[Ibrahim]

About the stats...

From up to down: Hippies Xystophoroi (KH), Hippies Thessalikoi (Makedonia, Epeiros and KH), Agema Klerouchikon Hippeon (Ptolemaioi), Eqvites Extraordinarii (Romani), Hetairoi, Molosson Agema (Epeiros)

https://img49.imageshack.us/img49/5838/neubitmapto2.png (https://img49.imageshack.us/my.php?image=neubitmapto2.png)
https://img49.imageshack.us/img49/neubitmapto2.png/1/w640.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img49/neubitmapto2.png/1/)
(damn, its too small:oops:. I hope u have good eyes)

Armored Horses...one of the advantages of a horse is, that you can eat it if it dies during battle. No armor means you need no can opener:smash:.

well, my right eye is a good little eye.

left eye cost me my driver's license last week. F***. (seriously, it did).

but yes, in this comparison, I would actually support the Hetairoi. it has sperior melee surviveability, and its charge is better. staminas are close to each other, in that regard its close. so in sum, the cavalry are IMHO (in order of effectiveness):

Hetairoi
molossan agema
agema klerouchikon hippeon (better than molossans in armor, worse in melee)
hippeis xystaphoroi
hipeis thessalikoi
extraordinarii-which, although ok, is terrible in comparison to the above cavalry.

I place emphasis on charge and melee, armor is important, but stamina is not as important (as i normally use the cavalry once, to finih the buggers off).

[Tartaros]

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/lusotannan/lus_scortamavera.gif

The best Rastaman-Spearman on Earth! Great medium infantry. In my lusocampaign they´re fight in centreposition and they never break even against roman/cartage/gauls elites and naked dudes.

Even better when they get silver-chevrons.

[theoldbelgian]

those indohellenic noble hoplites are not that good because of their AOR once you can recruit them as baktria you usually have the whole of india in your hands and you have to transport them back to through your territory
+ i don't think they are that great fighters

[Cyclops]

The best Rastaman-Spearman on Earth! Great medium infantry. In my lusocampaign they´re fight in centreposition and they never break even against roman/cartage/gauls elites and naked dudes.

Even better when they get silver-chevrons.

Yep I love my scorto's, they are killing machines that do not stop.

My nicest surpise in my current Sweboz campaign is the German Swordsmen. I was planning to rely on FM's and German pike for the line, but 4 units of these bad boys in a main army stack (especially if recruited in a city dedicated to Deiwoz) are battle winners.

They can hold a line, carve through a flank, I've seen them absorb and repel massed Celtic cavalry charges (despite no spears), they die hard and slow, and take everyone with them. The accumulate chevrons like crazy because unlike most Germans they're not gutted after 1-2 combats. Javelins, shieldwall and VG endurance, these units have good tactical flexibility (not Thracian-Peltast-good, but still...)

I haven't made it to the 190BC reforms yet, but they will remain a mainstay even when the heavies arrive.

[Cute Wolf]

My surprisingly bad unit:
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/kart-hadast/kart_forest_elephant.gif

They are exspensive, didn't have any archers on top... (spare the seleucids, ptolies, and baktria's towered version for fairly fair units), the Carthie's elephants usable only against enemy's crack elite army (the slow and heavilyy armoured infantry), and die like flies when face mobs of junk units / proper skirmishing unit... (and the AI always buld tons of skirmishers and low class levies...) In my opinion, they are ussualy used as very exspensive suicide bombs against line of cheap units. (their frighten enemy effect is worth only against crack elite such as romani's reformed legionary, spartans, or exspensive heavy cavalry... they can fear the romans, but the ptolies's pantodapoi will slaughter them easily for far cheaper price (2 unit of pantodapoi charged an kardhastim elephant corps... doom for that beasts), even on medium battle difficulty...


My Surprisingly good unit:
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/aedui/aedui_bagaudas.gif

They are described as poor class soldiers, but with proper use, they could put a doom against entire army made from more exspensive, professional troops, plus they have excellent chance to hold and survive in hand to hand combat...... With their price, all you must do is got some missile troops to prevent them die prematurely from enemy missile troops.... they far more worthy than they would pay....:yes:

[machinor]

Would you provide the name of the second unit?
Regarding the Carthaginian elephants: There exists a towered elephant unit for Carthage. It's a bit tricky: There are two African elephant units, one with a Greek name and one with a Semitic(?) name. One of the is the unit you mention, the other one has a tower with one archer. Both units cost the same. I don't know which one's the towered, though. It's been a while since I played Carthage or Ptolemaioi.

[athanaric]

Cute Wolf's second unit:

Bagaudas (Veneti Swordsmen). Recruitable only in Armoriae. Very convenient though as they are a low-tier unit, easy to get for all factions.

The "semitic" elephants are Pilei Ya'ar Libim.


Funny to hear about the Scortamareva, as I intended to post them as a "surprisingly bad" (although cool-looking) unit. Maybe I have been using them in the wrong way.

[machinor]

Thanks for providing the unit names, athanaric.

[Mediolanicus]

Bagaudas (Veneti Swordsmen). Recruitable only in Armoriae. Very convenient though as they are a low-tier unit, easy to get for all factions.



British and especially Galatian shortswords do equally (surprisingly) good. Plus, the latter one has a much broader AOR, albeit it only in the East.

[theoldbelgian]

aren't they only recruitable in 2 areas?

[Nachtmeister]

aren't they only recruitable in 2 areas?

Yes but those two areas are very well accessible and strategically well-positioned for using them in your army.

[athanaric]

aren't they only recruitable in 2 areas?

Yes, but they are also readily available as mercenaries throughout the region. Very practical for a KH player who wishes to expand into Asia Minor.

E: Verdammt, Nachtmeister, you beat me.

[Mediolanicus]

aren't they only recruitable in 2 areas?

Indeed, but as said: they come as mercenaries in the whole of Greece, Trace, Asia Minor, Levant and Northern Egypt IIRC.

Makes them the ideal disposable killers IMO

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/eleutheroi/galatia/galatian_kluddolon.gif

[Nachtmeister]

Yes, but they are also readily available as mercenaries throughout the region. Very practical for a KH player who wishes to expand into Asia Minor.

E: Verdammt, Nachtmeister, you beat me.



MUHAHAHAHAHAHR!! MUUUUUHAAAAAHAAAAHAAAAHAAAARRRHHH!!!

You drive home a very important point about them that I omitted, tho - merc-ability all over Europa.
And Mikra Asia. Basically the best choice for someone who wants some extra chopper-infantry for only one or two engagements at low cost. Kill phalanxes at record speed if they reach their rear without getting shot to pieces on the way by enemy skirmishers.

[A Very Super Market]

One wonders why Galatia hasn't been run dry of men yet..

[Antinous]

They probably have many wives from raiding.

[russia almighty]

I'm sure if your wife was a hot red head, you'd be uh, making sure the Galatian state had tons of future warriors.

[Antinous]

Well we know the men certainly did both of the jobs they were required to do. Defend and feed your family and have lots of kids for warriors.

[Tartaros]

Cute Wolf's second unit:
Funny to hear about the Scortamareva, as I intended to post them as a "surprisingly bad" (although cool-looking) unit. Maybe I have been using them in the wrong way.

Oh, i think i know what you meen. But they need definitely a bit exercisment. with three or four chevrons + weapon upgrade they ´re a "Surprisingly" solid unit. "Fresh" recruited they are sometimes very fast-dying...

[Mediolanicus]

Oh, i think i know what you meen. But they need definitely a bit exercisment. with three or four chevrons + weapon upgrade they ´re a "Surprisingly" solid unit. "Fresh" recruited they are sometimes very fast-dying...

My golden chevroned Akontistai are surprisingly good too...
That's why I almost never retrain. Fighting the AI is already easy enough, then why use fullstacks and experienced units? Certainly because the AI hardly retrains (some say it doesn't at all, but I've seen them do it).

[Cute Wolf]

All low armoured and cheap shortswordsmen are surprisingly good units for me.... but the bagaudas are the most reliable when we playing "civilized" factions....

[athanaric]

Speaking of light swordsmen, one "surprisingly good" unit also comes to my mind:

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/sweboz/sweboz_jugunthiz_hattisku.gif

Why? - They are dirt cheap (675/169, compare that to Bagaudas!), have AP melee weapons, powerful charge, excellent stamina, and, unlike other Germanic troops, a decent javelin range (because of lighter javelins). All this makes them excellent garrison troops. Of course they die like Dacians if exposed to missile fire, but so do other barbarian units.

E: sorry, forgot the name: "Chatti Youth" clubmen.

[bobbin]

Can't seem to get enough of these guys.
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/eleutheroi/easteurope/ele_boii_infantry.gif
Perfect for fighting the sweboz, reasonably cheap too.

[Cute Wolf]

and they are not as tough as bagaudas, try to fight 'em head to head next time...:smash:

Bagaudas are even surprisingly better than their galatian counterparts in terms of combat prowess (2 bagaudas can beat 1 Gaesahtae in ambush!), galatians are only better in fact they has better AOR.

[Olaf Blackeyes]

Speaking of light swordsmen, one "surprisingly good" unit also comes to my mind:

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/sweboz/sweboz_jugunthiz_hattisku.gif

Why? - They are dirt cheap (675/169, compare that to Bagaudas!), have AP melee weapons, powerful charge, excellent stamina, and, unlike other Germanic troops, a decent javelin range (because of lighter javelins). All this makes them excellent garrison troops. Of course they die like Dacians if exposed to missile fire, but so do other barbarian units.

E: sorry, forgot the name: "Chatti Youth" clubmen.

This unit and the main Club infantry that the Sweboz use are that factions saving grace against armored opponents, such as later Roman legions, Uber heavy cavalry, and even Spartans.
I have done extensive battle testing, where i fight armored opponents with Sweboz aries that do and dont have these units. For ever clubmen unit i added enemy casualties rose about 10-15%, VERY impressive for guys that cost 690 mnai (THE cheapest unit in the game)

[Mister V]

Thorakitai Agematos Basilikou... why "surprisingly" good? Several reasons:
- they really do look like Snowtroopers, it makes my empire feel that much more like... the Empire;
- they are incredibly tough;
- they have a really cool name I like saying out loud.:beam:
All in all, they're even cooler than I expected. Thus the "surprisingly".

The surprisingly bad unit (as far as I've seen): Armenian horse archers, the cataphract kind. I don't know what makes them worse than any regular one, I just know my cataphracts wiped out several full units of those taking only five casualties, they fall easily.

[Megalos Danielos Psychopatos]

Errrrr....TAB as "SURPRISINGLY" good? Ekhm...these guys are great but no surprisingly...they are elite kings guards; best of the best...nothing surprisingly...:inquisitive:

[Tolg]

The surprisingly bad unit (as far as I've seen): Armenian horse archers, the cataphract kind. I don't know what makes them worse than any regular one, I just know my cataphracts wiped out several full units of those taking only five casualties, they fall easily.

That's strange. They didn't do any worse then my parthian ones in my Hai campaign. And those guys are unsurprisingly good.

Perhaps you did charge them? Even a phalanx will suffer heavy casualties when from a cataphract charge, cavalary of any kind (except perhaps counter-charging cataphracts) won't stand a chance at all. Also cataphracts (other then the noble ones) have AP secondary weapons.

[Mister V]

Errrrr....TAB as "SURPRISINGLY" good? Ekhm...these guys are great but no surprisingly...they are elite kings guards; best of the best...nothing surprisingly...:inquisitive:
I said that I thought they were going to be good-looking and not bad in combat. I didn't expect them to be this awesome in all aspects!
Seriously, it's just been a long time since I've played EB, maybe I'm somewhat over-enthusiastic:beam:


That's strange. They didn't do any worse then my parthian ones in my Hai campaign. And those guys are unsurprisingly good.

Perhaps you did charge them? Even a phalanx will suffer heavy casualties when from a cataphract charge, cavalary of any kind (except perhaps counter-charging cataphracts) won't stand a chance at all. Also cataphracts (other then the noble ones) have AP secondary weapons.
I charged them, but they weren't just standing there either, they were trying to get away from mine. If they were standing still, I wouldn't be surprised either.


Also, I've found something wierd (and it is unit-related, so I'll post it here). The TAB and Kataphraktoi aren't supposed to upgrade their weapons, right? Well for some reason when I go to Halikarnassos, I can retrain them and it gets upgraded. Glitch?

[Tolg]

I charged them, but they weren't just standing there either, they were trying to get away from mine. If they were standing still, I wouldn't be surprised either.


Sometimes charges also work when they usually shouldn't, so it might have been this. well, w/e it's not that important. Parthian Armoured HA a better(=cheaper) anyway.

[desert]

Hey, Chatti Clubmen aren't the cheapest unit!! Aren't you forgetting the crap slingers and archers?

[SaberHRE]

Can't seem to get enough of these guys.
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/eleutheroi/easteurope/ele_boii_infantry.gif
Perfect for fighting the sweboz, reasonably cheap too.

What unit is this? Never encountered them before.

[athanaric]

What unit is this? Never encountered them before.

Boii Cingetos. Recruitable in southern Central Europe. Large unit size, decent armour, Longsword+Javelins.

[Cullhwch]

Boii Cingetos actually use shortswords. They're more or less just Celtic legionaries, making them unsurprisingly good units.

[athanaric]

Boii Cingetos actually use shortswords. They're more or less just Celtic legionaries, making them unsurprisingly good units.

Damn. Shoulda known that.:embarassed:

[Kromulan]

OK, this may sound a bit strange. . .
My surprisingly bad unit is Cardinau Orca.
They're not bad in the sense that they can't do anything. . . they don't suffer that many casualties compared to the kills. It's just that, with all the hype they get in the forum, I was disappointed in their performance.
I sent them into the middle of the melee, where I usually put my elites, and they just kinda wrestled with the bad guys (1 thora and parts of 2 theuros) until everyone was exhausted.
They did OK - something like 20 losses and 80 kills - but I had to use one of my Thracian peltasts on the back of the thora to end the fight.
The Cardinau Orca aren't bad, just not as good as their hype. So, surprisingly bad.


I'm probably just spoiled by the Rhomphoia. . .

[seienchin]

Mmh all of the royal guards of the helenistic forces are kind of surprisingly bad.
They cost like 800 every turn and are just weak, if compared to far more cheap units like Thorakitai or Triarii, who also have better armors... :smash:
Surprisingly good are the pantapoi phalangitai, who just kick ass with their axes and they,I dont know why, beat the klerouchi(?) every time despite their higher stats. :dizzy2:

[Cullhwch]

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/aedui/aedui_milnaht.gif

These guys are unsurprisingly good. You expect them to be a decent heavy infantry unit. However, they take things into surprisingly amazing territory. Milnaht can absolutely wreck all but the heaviest infantry in a melee and their staying power is unbeatable. They're basically Gaesatae Lite. Elite troops minus the price tag.

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

Bah, 1 vs. 1 I've defeated them with an unit of Bataroas. It took high casualties tough.

In sum I think they are inferior as a line unit. Unless you're talking about the experienced Eleutheroi guys in the Bellovacea Belgica, they gave me a headache.

[kekailoa]

I don't know about that. The Milnaht are pretty good. I've used them extensively in my Casse campaigns as line troops, and they took on Sweboz heavies and routed them. They're pretty good troops.

[SwissBarbar]

Yeah, the Milnaht are pretty fierce badasses.

[Laman]

The humble Komatai is a good unit, hard to say wether surprisingly so, but they are well worth the relatively small cost. Good skirmishers, numerous, and reasonable fighters.

Drapanai are very good, but that we all know that already, yesterday one of my Drapanai charged a Koinon general head on, in the beginning the Hellenes thought they could win, a few seconds later they realized they were doomed, end result, all them "elite" hoplites dead, a handful dead Drapanai (of course the Drapanai was helped by the fact that I soon had more warriors join the fun, but they were clearly winning already by then).

[Tartaros]

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/aedui/aedui_milnaht.gif

These guys are unsurprisingly good. You expect them to be a decent heavy infantry unit. However, they take things into surprisingly amazing territory. Milnaht can absolutely wreck all but the heaviest infantry in a melee and their staying power is unbeatable. They're basically Gaesatae Lite. Elite troops minus the price tag.

totally agree with that. milnaht often saved my battles...

[Chloe]

I love the Persian Archers, they are cheap and can hold off hordes of those infernal Saka Rauka.
Once, I also had one of the green mercenary Persian archers (not the archer-spearmen), and they routed four units of Greek spearmen in hand-to-hand (admittedly the spearmen were in a Saka army).:laugh4:

[athanaric]

[...] and they routed four units of Greek spearmen in hand-to-hand (admittedly the spearmen were in a Saka army).

You mean the Pantodapoi, also known as Moving Speed Bump or Annoying Cannonfodder? Those aren't really Greek (nor are they real fghting units).
Still I agree with you that the Thanvare Payâhdag are the most cost-effective garrison troops for Baktria or AS. Persian Archers on stone walls are just great for disposing of nasty Nomad rabble.

[LordCurlyton]

Surprisingly Good: Maure Infantry or Kinsmen Heavy Cavalry. The Maure because they are one of the few skirmishing units that I am not afraid to send into melee and Kinsmen because I can routinely use them to take on even heavier cavalry and hold for a good long while. Also, they move at a nice clip
Unsurprisingly Good: Marian Legionnaires. They are the most cost-effective, widest ranging unit in the game. Only steppe nomads can come close
Unsurprisingly Bad: Pantodopai. 'Nuff said.
Surprisingly Bad: Spartan Hoplites or Neitos. Spartan Hoplites mainly because for an elite they just don't give what I'd expect (though the in-game text does warn you somewhat). Neitos mainly vs close-order spears. They seem to do just fine against looser-ordered anything but if I hit a wall of tight spears they seem to take undue casualties and I cannot for the life of me figure out why.

[machinor]

I agree on the Kinsmen Heavy Cavalry. Seems like the AS seems to know that two as I frequently encounter AS armies with Kinsmen Heavy Cavalry and they surely are a pain in the ass. As Pontus they are the reason one can survive the early game.

[antisocialmunky]

Spartan Hoplites aren't particularly unsurprisingly bad. They're just impractical to use to hold the line. You have to use them as a reserve. :-\

[LordCurlyton]

I also go from a recruitment-area take as well. One province wonders generally don't make the list and seeing as only one faction can get Spartans and that faction has the much more numerous Epilektoi Hoplitai, Thorakitai Hopiltai, and others, Spartans just don't stand out. When I played KH I never used Spartans outside of the starting batch.

[desert]

Spartans are good for breaking the enemy line.

I've found that they are more useful than Epilektoi (who die too quickly) for holding the line, but not as good as regular hoplitai. If you have them charge an enemy, though, they will often bore right through them.

[soup_alex]

Surprisingly Good: Maure Infantry...
Really?
At first I was impressed by their combination of armour and speed (no Peltastai, I suppose, but we Carthaginians make do with what we have), but in my experience they're excelled as melee-javelineers by Iberians and Garamantines, and as mobile javelineers by (Iberi) Velites and (I think) Numidians.

Meanwhile, my (admittedly limited) experience with Spartan Hoplites has been favourable: having been given a "free" unit with a mercenary general (who proceeded to collect multiple valour-boosting ancilliaries), I attempted to experiment with this phalangite warfare that everyone is so excited about, and found that a well-timed charge by the über-hoplites was just the thing to help mercenary Phalangites to break up disciplined heavy infantry (I agree, though, that you do have to pick your moment though as they're not near as useful without the charge)


My surprisingly bad unit would probably be Carthaginian Citizen Cavalry (as someone has already nominated Forest Elephants; these guys are nearly as useless). Despite being considered fast moving they're nearly always caught, and though boasting a healthy charge bonus, they seem never to want to use it—I've tried many a time, and these swine always either neglect to couch(?) their xyston or instead go in with swords. Much of the time, they seem to ride at full tilt toward a point some metres to the right or left of where the enemy actually sit, before slowing to a walk and eventually homing in (which leads me to believe that they must have developed a tactic of closing one (or both) of their eyes as they charge.
Indeed, I'm loath to put much faith in any of Carthage's cavalry bar the Sacred Band. I can't wait to get my hands on the Iberi Lanceari! :ballchain:

[kekailoa]

Really?

My surprisingly bad unit would probably be Carthaginian Citizen Cavalry (as someone has already nominated Forest Elephants; these guys are nearly as useless). Despite being considered fast moving they're nearly always caught, and though boasting a healthy charge bonus, they seem never to want to use it—I've tried many a time, and these swine always either neglect to couch(?) their xyston or instead go in with swords. Much of the time, they seem to ride at full tilt toward a point some metres to the right or left of where the enemy actually sit, before slowing to a walk and eventually homing in (which leads me to believe that they must have developed a tactic of closing one (or both) of their eyes as they charge.
Indeed, I'm loath to put much faith in any of Carthage's cavalry bar the Sacred Band. I can't wait to get my hands on the Iberi Lanceari! :ballchain:

Really? I actually found them to be quite good. Once you level them up, they're killers in melee against most of your African enemies. I used them extensively for the first quarter of my Carthy game.

[soup_alex]

Really? I actually found them to be quite good. Once you level them up, they're killers in melee against most of your African enemies. I used them extensively for the first quarter of my Carthy game.
Maybe I'm just a poor cavalry commander (although Sacred Band always manage to do the job, and Equites Caetrati seldom fail)? I certainly wouldn't have expected Citizen Cavalry to fare well against African armies, though (and especially the Numidians). All those javelins and excellent archers do much harm to shield-less ***tizen Cav, and they haven't got a hope in hell against Glmdtk, much less are they able to catch them.

Half-Breed Cavalry, on the other hand...

[seienchin]

Maybe I'm just a poor cavalry commander (although Sacred Band always manage to do the job, and Equites Caetrati seldom fail)? I certainly wouldn't have expected Citizen Cavalry to fare well against African armies, though (and especially the Numidians). All those javelins and excellent archers do much harm to shield-less ***tizen Cav, and they haven't got a hope in hell against Glmdtk, much less are they able to catch them.

Half-Breed Cavalry, on the other hand...
The citizen cavallery is antiskirmisher antiarcher flanking cavallery, theyre not melee or heavy cavallery. Its best for them to only atack weak troops or from the rear and retreat immediatly. Used that way they are really a good cavallery esspecially because of their speed.
I would rather call the podromoi weak compared to the citizen Cavalery cause of their higher costs though they also die like flies :furious3:
Does anyone know why??
My podromoi have armour 13 and still die like flies and absolutley suck in melee, even when turned to swords wich should have atack 11... :wall:

[soup_alex]

Perhaps you're often getting them stuck in with units that have a "hidden" AP weapon.


(Ba'al protect me, Numidian archers have an AP club with a lethality of 0.14?! What are they even doing carrying bows, they should be clad in armour and put on the front line!!)

[seienchin]

Perhaps you're often getting them stuck in with units that have a "hidden" AP weapon.


(Ba'al protect me, Numidian archers have an AP club with a lethality of 0.14?! What are they even doing carrying bows, they should be clad in armour and put on the front line!!)
No...
And AP only gives a Bonus against armor and does not completly ignore it. Podromoi jus suck...
But theyre fast. They are just like any other light atacking cavallery just more expensive, that is why they suck, but nt as hard as the indo iranian light cavallery, which costs even more.

[athanaric]

No...
And AP only gives a Bonus against armor and does not completly ignore it. Podromoi jus suck...
But theyre fast. They are just like any other light atacking cavallery just more expensive, that is why they suck, but nt as hard as the indo iranian light cavallery, which costs even more.

Prodromoi are actually excellent vs. other light cavalry and for chasing any kind of unit. Of course, they suck in melee vs. decent infantry or heavy cavalry, but that is not where they are supposed to be. Kamboja Asvaka Ksatriya have an advantage over Prodromoi insofar as they, unlike the latter, have shields and AP secondary weapons. Both have a good charge and are decent flankers. They are meant to counter HAs and skirmishers and to charge the flanks of enemy forces. AFAIK the same applies to the Poeni Citizen Cavalry.

[seienchin]

Prodromoi are actually excellent vs. other light cavalry and for chasing any kind of unit. Of course, they suck in melee vs. decent infantry or heavy cavalry, but that is not where they are supposed to be. Kamboja Asvaka Ksatriya have an advantage over Prodromoi insofar as they, unlike the latter, have shields and AP secondary weapons. Both have a good charge and are decent flankers. They are meant to counter HAs and skirmishers and to charge the flanks of enemy forces. AFAIK the same applies to the Poeni Citizen Cavalry.
Yes, but unlike the citizen cavallery they are just too expansive and you lose way to many men by charging with podromoi ot the Iranian ones. Thats why there Charge also sucks :book:
But yes of course I always have some Cavallery of this kind in my Army to charge enemies archers, but their casualty are always too high against simple archers...

[soup_alex]

Yes, but unlike the citizen cavallery they are just too expansive and you lose way to many men by charging with podromoi ot the Iranian ones. Thats why there Charge also sucks :book:
But yes of course I always have some Cavallery of this kind in my Army to charge enemies archers, but their casualty are always too high against simple archers...
Prodromoi are hardly much more expensive than Citizen Cavalry (2334/584 to 2200/550), and for that you get (according to the unit list) an extra two points of armour, better charge bonuses with xyston and sword, better stamina and an AoR covering much of Greece, Asia Minor, North Arabia, the Nile Delta and Bactria. Citizen Cavalry can be recruited in three provinces, all at the centre of the empire.

I suppose it's less surprising that Carthaginian cavalry is crap (although from a historical perspective, I'm not sure about that), but Prodromoi are still far superior (and I'm sure the Hellenes have access to other units to fill their role, anyway).

[bobbin]

Prodromoi are excellent charger cavalry IMO just never let them get involved in a melee, the thrakian version is even better and has a rather nice sabre too.
I tend to use them in conjunction with loncophoroi and they compliment each other perfectly.

[Faramir D'Andunie]

Illyrian Cavalry is a suprisingly good unit, I expected them to be half useless and was positively suprised by their performance. Also any kind of skirmisher with an AP weapon.

For suprisingly bad, Thorakitai Hoplitai. I just can't find a decent use for those.

[Chloe]

I also like the arachosian slirmisher cavalry. They are pretty tough. I am also surprised by the toughness of the hyrkanian hillmen!

[Nachtmeister]

For suprisingly bad, Thorakitai Hoplitai. I just can't find a decent use for those.



The only native KH unit that doesn't suck quite so badly at wall-fights. That's what they are good for.

[athanaric]

Originally Posted by Faramir D'Andunie
For suprisingly bad, Thorakitai Hoplitai. I just can't find a decent use for those.

As has been said, they are good on walls because of the AP swords they use as secondaries. Compare that to Thureophoroi who, although excellent in field battles, totally suck on walls. Peltastai are decent on walls, too (as long as you don't force them to fight superior infantry toe-to-toe).
Speaking of Hoplite Phalanxes, IMO Iphikratous Hoplitai are slightly too weak, though they can be useful on walls and against cavalry. This is mainly due to the limitations of the RTW engine, though.

[Cute Wolf]

And what about the most mediocre units? (not counted as good, not counted as bad, not too cheap nor exspensive for their standing... and when you encounter them on the field you just singh... "oh they again... I grow bored seeing them on the field")

Greek ai semms fond of creating hordes full of akontistai...

[machinor]

Hmmm mediocre... I'd say Pantodapoi Phalangitai. Their performance is okay as is the price. They're okay for holding the line for some time although naturally they melt away against more elite Phalangitai.

[richardfburton]

Hmmm mediocre... I'd say Pantodapoi Phalangitai. Their performance is okay as is the price. They're okay for holding the line for some time although naturally they melt away against more elite Phalangitai.

Pantodapoi Phalangitai are a fantastic unit, properly supported and provided they have no height disadvantage they can pin elite phalanx in place and allow flanking infantry and cavalry to destroy the enemy.

[HayGuy]

Yeah in my Bactria game I have some of those Pantapodai phalangites, they are pretty cool with armor and chevrons.

[We shall fwee...Wodewick]

Illyrian Cavalry FTW.

They are cheap, fast, stamina by the bucketload, and a good charge for a light cavalry. Sure they aren't a hammer like hetaroi et al, but they are just simple and efficient. Not to mention AP axes!

[Fluvius Camillus]

My surprisingly good units are:

Milites Samnitici (Samnite Heavy Infantry)
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/eleutheroi/italy/rebel_samnite_swordsmen.gif

These guys really put up a good fight. I bougth them in Sicily without any idea how good they were. When the siege of Syracuse was going bad I got sick of it and sent the samnites on the wall with ladders to fight their way through on their own. Around 3 groups of reasonable infantry were there. I thougth the mission was impossible but as said earlier I grew tired of this battle and just sent m up. But to my great Surprise they destroyed the enemy after a long fight. Sure a lot of them were dead, but they took a lot of men with them to the grave!

Quite large AOR, quite expensive though. They hold most infantry line, dont expect them to fend of cataphracts. But these men almost don't die!:beam: They keep standing until the very end and are hardy warriors! Sending a lot of enemies to their grave.

Of course there is the even better Roman equivalent:

Pedites Extraordinarii (Elite Heavy Infantry of the Italic Allies)
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/romani/roman_auxilia_pedites_extra.gif

These men are extremely though and when used correctly as flanking troops they totally tip the favour to your side. Excellent men! The Roman variant is cheaper and stronger but only available for Rome.

With chevrons almost unstoppable!

Combine these with some Gesatae and you will be astonished what you can accomplish! (Like conquering the whole map with Rome and Epirus in in 190's)!

[seienchin]

Yeah they are very powerfull esspecially, on walls :help:
Roman units tend to beat the crap out of everything on walls.

[BurningEGO]

Roman warfare what do you want. While for the greeks infantry was used in a defensive manner, the romans used it offensively. Still, it amuses me how they managed to do so much that way.

And the samnitii are great indeed, as Pyrrhus, i remember hiring lots of em, and killed countless romans that way. Their attack isnt great, but their armour is superb. Although i did find odd that milites samnitii was stronger then the hastati samnitii.

[Marcus Ulpius]

Pedites Extraordinarii are great, but I can't say surprisingly. It's an elite infantry after all. However Equites Extraordinarii are surprisingly poor. They are expensive, require highest level MIC to be built just for them and they simply don't deliver it. Not in melee and not in charge.

[Tartaros]

However Equites Extraordinarii are surprisingly poor. They are expensive, require highest level MIC to be built just for them and they simply don't deliver it. Not in melee and not in charge.

totally agree with that. i like to use liguriae epos or equites campanici instead of equites romanii or equites extraordinarii

i was really surprised about this guys:
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/eleutheroi/steppe-euro/rebel_voinu_spearmen.gif

they have frighten nearby infantry(!man-eaters!) atribute, good stamnia, big shields and are relativly cheap

[antisocialmunky]

Pantodapoi Phalangitai are a fantastic unit, properly supported and provided they have no height disadvantage they can pin elite phalanx in place and allow flanking infantry and cavalry to destroy the enemy.

They have AP Axes.:yes:

[athanaric]

i was really surprised about this guys:
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/eleutheroi/steppe-euro/rebel_voinu_spearmen.gif

they have frighten nearby infantry(!man-eaters!) atribute, good stamnia, big shields and are relativly cheap

:2thumbsup: Indeed. Combined with Bastarnae Falxmen, they are great vs. heavy infantry or melee cavalry. If you want to go totally badass, you can also combine them with Worgozez.
I wonder though why Doryphoroi Pontikoi are just as expensive while not possessing the "frighten infantry"-trait.

[Cute Wolf]

They are not cannibals...

[Chloe]

The Camillan Principes are really good, along with the merc Bruttian infantry.
I also like the Persian Archer Spearmen, very versatile troops.:laugh4:

[Novellus]

They are not cannibals...

Not according to the EB description:

Voinu are fierce infantry spearmen who form the bulk of the armies of the Neuri and Boudinoi. They wear no armor, but their large, oval shields afford substantial protection and they are brave, wild warriors that make very tough opponents. In addition, they inhabit harsh terrain, forest, rivers and swamps, which is not suitable for cavalry warfare, but that they can use to their advantage. Therefore, their tactical doctrine was probably similar to that of their later descendants, the Central European Slavs, who lived and fought under similar conditions: the deployment of spearmen defended by big shields and backed by packs of skirmishers armed with sturdy bows. When in a favorable ground, the wild courage of these tribesmen and their terrifying reputation (the claims of their being cannibals appear to have had a solid basis) are added to the picture, the resulting combination is one than can prove very difficult to defeat.

Historically, Herodotos wrote about the Neuri and Boudinoi and placed them as northern neighbours of the European Scythians. Nowadays, many historians think they occupied the swamps and forests of Prippet and the upper Dnieper and associate them with advanced archeological cultures of the area. Features of those cultures are the use of iron weapons and a substantial influence from their southern Scythian neighbours. Some scholars consider the Neuri and Boudinoi the earliest known ancestors of the Proto-Slavs. In that case, their warrior class would have been plausibly called "Voinu", a proto-slavic word for "Warrior". In any case, they were fierce and wild opponents and cannibalism was apparently not foreign to them. Markings of teeth on human bones have been found in excavations and Herodotos wrote of the Androphagoi, the man-eaters. They are possibly the basis of the evil werewolves, man-eating wolf-people of later Slavic legend. In the historical past, whoever fought those tribes knew what terrible fate would befall them if they lost.

[desert]

Yes, Voinu were cannibals. But Wolf isn't talking about Voinu, he is talking about Pontic Spearmen.

[Novellus]

Yes, Voinu were cannibals. But Wolf isn't talking about Voinu, he is talking about Pontic Spearmen.

Oh, I see. Gosh, these forums are so confusing sometimes! :wall:

[anangryelitist]

https://img99.imageshack.us/img99/9951/cassebalroaecz5.gif

These guys are absolutly suprisingly awesome. They have good attack/defense, high speed, large unit size and extraordinary moral. With a few chevrons of experience these guys can make excellent shock infantry.

btw these guys can beat a unit of principes 1v1 if they manage to let off all their javelins

[LordCurlyton]

If the principes let them launch all the javelins, they deserve to get beat.

[A Very Super Market]

Amen. And the chevrons stuff doesn't count.

[anangryelitist]

iirc they have a really long throw range

[LordCurlyton]

Doesn't matter. Just don't pause to throw your pilum, then. Either those guys skirmish back, thus ceding position and the ability to throw or they eat a face full of angry Principes. And as stated, chevroned troops don't count. A fully-experienced levy phalanx will crush a just-trained elite phalanx any day of the week, for example.

[Faramir D'Andunie]

I take back what I said about Thorakitai Hoplitai, they prove extremely usefull in sieges indeed.
And for some reason they are way more effective in guard mode when fighting open battles.

Makes me wonder if Machimoi (that native egyptian infantry) should be noted as suprisingly good. They sure are better than I expected em to be.

[BurningEGO]

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/koinon-hellenon/kh_spartiates.gif

This guy is definetely the best unit. He is good against everything. Perhaps, not the best in any certain area, but a good all-round trooper. Excelent Morale, Very Good Stamina, Good against cavalry, Good against infantry and able to eat a crapload of missiles for lunch. I have fought with these boys against terrible odds with the KH in VH/VH and they never disapointed me.

[A Very Super Market]

Well... they're Spartans. They're supposed to be good. This thread is for units that the game doesn't mention to be elite, but still end up kicking ass. You don't see anyone putting up elephants, do you?

[Zett]

You don't see anyone putting up elephants, do you?

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/epeiros/epi_indian_elephant.gif

Surprinsingly bad unit. Very high recruitmencosts, high upkeep, die very fast against on of the cheapest units (Akontistai) and can run amok if not used correctly. That means you get a big Elephant, which needs much care, is very expensive and does a job which (except the frightens infantery/cavalery bonus) every cavaleryman with a xyston could do. You also have the risk, that it turns against your own men (one point more for the xystonboys).

Sure they look awesome and their charge is bigger then the one of a cavalery unit, but the high price makes them only to a "look how much money I have" unit. IMO they are not worth the money you need to recruit them. And I neither mentioned the two turns it takes to recruit them nor the limited recruitment area. But I have to admit it feels good to have the possibility to recruit them.

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

[anubis88]

I must completly dissagree with you. The elephant's are one of the strongest units by far in EB if used correctly. There is no non pike army that can stand their charge.

I always saved lot's of my soldiers lives by using elephants

[machinor]

Any Hellenistic monarch has to have elephants in his army. Period. Of course it is the show-off factor but those beasts are weapons of mass destruction in hellenistic warfare. Have them guarded by a unit of Peltastai who can chase away any enemy skirmishers. As soon as you disposed of them, you can bring the elephants into action. When the main battle lines are engaged, you can just steamroll the enemy line with your elephants. The best way to dispose of enemy elite infantry without getting overly high losses yourself. If the elephant charge will not break them, their line is in disorder and you can move in your elite infantry to chop them up.
Plus they are superior general killers if the enemy general is stupid enough to have his bodyguard unit engage into melee combat.

[Zett]

I still prefer my xystonboys

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/koinon-hellenon/kh_hippeis_xystophoroi.gif

They are fast and cheap if compared to these "weapons of mass destruction in hellenistic warfare". BTW with "weapons of mass destruction in hellenistic warfare" you mean killing your own troops, right? Or is it just me who always fails in using them?:embarassed:

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

[Faramir D'Andunie]

Hippeis Xystophoroi, one gets to love em in KH campaigns.

As for elephants they are a double edged sword able to equally harm both you and your opponents. But such a sharp sword, able to inflict terrible wounds

[Ludens]

They are fast and cheap if compared to these "weapons of mass destruction in hellenistic warfare". BTW with "weapons of mass destruction in hellenistic warfare" you mean killing your own troops, right? Or is it just me who always fails in using them?:embarassed:

Elephants are tricky to use indeed. They cost an army and a leg, while cheap skirmisher units can and will kill them if you are careless. However, like chariots, they do have their uses. They are can bulldoze their way through pinned enemy phalanx-formations, tearing them up, destroying their formation and reducing their morale. They also are good at countercharging heavy cavalry. Personally, I use them to precede my heavy cavalry: this disrupts the enemy charging, making them easy pickings for my horsemen. Off course, you do need to keep light infantry and cavalry away, so always keep some skirmisher cavalry at hand (armed with bows or javelins, depending on the opposition). So, in brief:

1) Use elephants to destroy enemy formations and disrupting their charges: don't target a single enemy unit, keep them moving, and let other units do the killing.
2) Elephants work best in combination with light and heavy cavalry. Elephants cover and precede your heavy cavalry, light cavalry covers and precedes your elephants.

Using elephants against non-phalanx heavy infantry is a bit more risky, since these generally have a precursor weapon that can hurt an elephant. However, in my experience, if you keep your elephants moving they generally survive.

[BurningEGO]

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/arche-seleukeia/seleukid_indian_elephant_armored.gif

Havent gotten my hands into those yet in EB, but THESE were weapons of mass destruction in normal RTW. I remember the countless Phalanx/Hoplites i smashed with them. Only thing that usually survived an Elephant charge were these damned Spartans.

But anyway, Elephants are expensive, yes, but they have devastating effects. Still remember how i usually blitzed Rome in the vanilla version. All these hastati fleeing in terror and awe from my elephants...

Although i must say that i find Elephants far more deadly using "Huge" sized units.

P.S: While your Phalanx line holds the enemy at bay, try a flank attack using your elephants... Nasty man, Nasty.

[antisocialmunky]

I was playing the Romans in custom and gave them two units of elephants. I was using a kinda realistic Macedonian army with some levies in it. The AI managed to punch a hole through a units of levies on the left flank with those elephants. Then they died but I was impressed that it managed to get that right.

No one mentioned my favorite use of elephants: Battering Rams so you don't have to sit for a season.

[machinor]

Using them as battering ram is a bit risky in my opinion. While one of them batters the gate, the others stand still, ideal targets for skirmishers (plus of course it's suicide to try to batter the gate of a city with stone walls with elephants). One has to be extra careful. If I don't want to wait to storm a city, I usually infiltrate it with spies, that's safer.

[antisocialmunky]

I usually have enough Cretans to supress any javelin shenanigans though going anywhere close to Dacia with Elephants seem rather unpleasant.

[machinor]

It's too bad you can't recruit Elephantes Kataphraktoi as Epeiros. Oh well, the standard Indians will have to suffice.

[Madlax]

Prodromoi (Successor Medium Cavalry)
https://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r261/Dutchjake/mak_prodromoi.gif
I rarely use them ever since I saw the enemy light cavalry beating the crap out of them every time ( 1 on 1 ). They deliver a good charge ( in the back of the enemy that is ), but whenever I use them, it is to chase routing units or to buy some time for help to come when they engage enemy cavalry that wants to attack me in the back or flanks.

[Novellus]

Prodromoi (Successor Medium Cavalry)
https://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r261/Dutchjake/mak_prodromoi.gif
I rarely use them ever since I saw the enemy light cavalry beating the crap out of them every time ( 1 on 1 ). They deliver a good charge ( in the back of the enemy that is ), but whenever I use them, it is to chase routing units or to buy some time for help to come when they engage enemy cavalry that wants to attack me in the back or flanks.

What? I love these guys! They're excellent when it comes to causing casualties among missile units. Some use them in Baktria in order to counter the horse archers since they have decent speed and stamina. I use the Prodromoi to knock out wavering opponents. They're like a light shock cavalry unit.

[BurningEGO]

Well, the first time i used these guys (the prodomoi cavalry), in VH/VH, i remember i charged them against a heavy peltastai unit... Worst thing i could ever do. In no time, my cavalry had been routed. So yeah, they rule. :clown:

I still use them sometimes, but they are ideal only for repeated rear attacks (charge, flee, charge, and repeat the same cycle over and over), or for killing routing enemies fast. I kinda dislike the extremely low attack that cavalry got in EB. Except for a few cavalry units.

[Marcus Ulpius]

Prodromoi are indeed weak. In my Mak campaign I thought they would deliver a good punch and charged them into a battle. In a short time they've started to drop in numbers and I had to retreat them.

I think they are quite similar to Roman bodyguards in their performance. They are good for rear charges, chasing routing troops or routing wavering units. However they'd be decimated in prolonged melee against most infantry and most cavalry (except may be the lightest and unarmored).

Their advantage is the price and very wide AOR for any Hellenistic faction.

[Tolg]

However they'd be decimated in prolonged melee against most infantry and most cavalry (except may be the lightest and unarmored).


You should never use cavalry in prolong melee. Even cataphracts will suffer far too many losses. Always have them charge and retreat, everything else is wasting their abilities.

[athanaric]

Well, the first time i used these guys (the prodomoi cavalry), in VH/VH, i remember i charged them against a heavy peltastai unit... Worst thing i could ever do. In no time, my cavalry had been routed. So yeah, they rule. :clown:


If you play on VH battle difficulty, it's your own fault. This game is recommended and balanced for "Medium" battle difficulty.
Prodromoi are not ideal in melee but they are excellent for other tasks.

[Tartaros]

What? I love these guys! They're excellent when it comes to causing casualties among missile units.

I always feel save with prodromoi by my side. for me "the" absolute standard for light cav!
Only hippeis tarantinoi are similar effective in use (for greeks factions).

[Chloe]

Yes, I was surprised when I saw the Tarentine cav! They are best in huge unit sizes, then they can squash almost anything, including general's bodyguards.

[machinor]

Totally agree on Hippeis Tarantinoi, they truely deserve to be called "Tarantine Elite Cavalry".

[Novellus]

I wish the Tarantinoi carried lances rather than javelins though.....

For some reason, it's like the javelins never seem to hit anything! :wall:

[Chloe]

I wish the Tarantinoi carried lances rather than javelins though.....

For some reason, it's like the javelins never seem to hit anything! :wall:

They are nice in hand-to-hand combat, though.:laugh4:

[antisocialmunky]

Yeah, I was very surprised to see how much more awesomer they became in 1.1/1.2. Before that they blew chunks.

[BurningEGO]

This game is recommended and balanced for "Medium" battle difficulty.

Real men only play the hardest mode. Sure, the AI units get some bonus, but even so battle generally speaking is hell easy.

[A Very Super Market]

No, it's hardly realistic, and it's "fake" difficulty. It's not the AI genuinely outmaneuvering you, it's units of Skirmishers beating the crap out of Spartans.

[BurningEGO]

If you think Skirmishers are bad, then try to face Saka's Noblemen... Ouch.

Took me an army of 2000 men to wipe out 400 of their horsemen. Even so i lost 1000 men! Massive Parthian Spearmen + Persian Archers ftw (actually wanted to use Parthian Horsemen, but my population in the provinces i can recruit them is terribly low).

[Cullhwch]

If you think Skirmishers are bad, then try to face Saka's Noblemen... Ouch.

Took me an army of 2000 men to wipe out 400 of their horsemen. Even so i lost 1000 men! Massive Parthian Spearmen + Persian Archers ftw (actually wanted to use Parthian Horsemen, but my population in the provinces i can recruit them is terribly low).

That sounds like the polar opposite of fun. Just play on medium battle difficulty.

[BurningEGO]

Medium is just too easy man. VH at least gives some challenges. I screamed like a crazy woman when i saw my pandotapoi killing the enemy general (for example).

https://img12.imageshack.us/img12/2020/0023pz3.jpg

[desert]

Are you really THAT good? I have to try pretty hard to win battles on Medium, and I'd rather not lose my armies fighting a unit of Peltastai on an enemy's walls.

What are you gonna do about the Central European fullstacks, huh? HUH? They have attack values in the 30s and DF in the 40s in VH! That's like a step away from godhood!

This is basically what you are dealing with: https://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr309/desertSypglass/66-1.jpg

[Arutima]

Are you really THAT good? I have to try pretty hard to win battles on Medium, and I'd rather not lose my armies fighting a unit of Peltastai on an enemy's walls.

What are you gonna do about the Central European fullstacks, huh? HUH? They have attack values in the 30s and DF in the 40s in VH! That's like a step away from godhood!


Let him have his fun. It almost equal stabbing yourself into the eys with rusty needles, but it's still his fun.


anyway. anyone who did a saba campaign must have really love the Abbir Ezra'him

https://img211.imageshack.us/img211/4057/sabacitizencavalryxu2.gif

They are not the most armored, but they do a great job, even against 2 silver chevrons, all elite yellow death stacks

[BurningEGO]

Well considerating i never assault castles (unless garrison is pathetically smaller then mine), i havent had any problems yet. Also i rarely got to fight in Central Europe since i usually play with some eastern nation. I usually stop my expansion westwards when i reach Rome. And sometimes when i am greedy i get Iberia and North africa too.

All nations, except for the Saka Rauka and Parthia (if you let them expand too much), proved to be too easy to beat in VH/VH. Again, i havent met nations (yet) like the one in great britain or the one in germany, but with a proper terrain advantage, all enemies can be beaten. And in this game there are so many rivers... (how many times did a river save my entire army and give me an heroic victory?)

Of course, i believe a campaign on VH/VH with some barbarian nation might prove... very hard indeed. Still, in my first campaign in EB, i annexed Macedonia and Rome at the same time as Epirus (VH/VH).

Regardless of what i dont understand that picture of yours. Care to elaborate?

[Cullhwch]

Yeah, playing on Very Hard is much more difficult when you're playing a melee-based faction. The +7 bonus given to enemy defense is only applied to defensive skill, so your arrows still do full damage on Very Hard mode. Without horse archers you'll just get stomped.

[soup_alex]

This is basically what you are dealing with: https://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr309/desertSypglass/66-1.jpg
Jpeg artefacts? ~:P
(If you're editing with Paint, try saving as portable network graphics because the default .jpg compression is atrocious)

...and can we leave off the Prodromoi! They are surely better than my bloody Ezra'him Ponnim, at least, and I've discovered that even they have a role (though not against anything with a missile weapon, as some suggest: they work wonders against Illyrian pirates, though)

My next candidate for surprisingly bad unit would have to be either Dorkim Balearim; who despite having a respectable profile comparable to Iberi Caetrati, lack the armour-piercing crunch that can be critical; or every locally-recruitable Italian unit available to me (excepting Samnite Heavies). Why have Campanian Cavalry when you can get Iberian or Numidian?

[Tolg]

Real men only play the hardest mode. Sure, the AI units get some bonus, but even so battle generally speaking is hell easy.

You're free to play on VH, but stop insulting those who prefer it the way it is supposed to be played.

Also most of the people here (or at least many) use house rules to male the game more difficult without making it unrealistic.

[Mooks]

I think the people insulting the elephants dont know how to properly use them. They arent meant for every battle.

[Hax]

Hetairoi Aspidophoroi
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/makedonia/mak_hetairoi_aspidophoroi.gif

These guys absolutely ROCKED!

I used them against Pyrrhos in the epic battle that decided the fate of Hellas, and they did an amazing job at routing the javelins, routed and chased the skirmishers on the Pyrrhic side and then crashed into the rear of the phalanx. I love them, I love them, I love them! <3

[Chloe]

The Scutarii are really tough, and so are the ambakaro elite cavalry, I just kicked Carthage out of Spain with those!:laugh4:
EDIT: The Celtic Lesser Kings are also pretty darn cool:D

[anubis88]

By the way. Playing VH battles with a faction such as carthage or seleucia or the romans is no problem. Try playing VH as the Sweboz or Aedui or the casse for that mather, It will be a whole other story when you can't train uber units and your opponents units are stronger by themselves.

I also played on VH/VH but when i faced horse archer armies they beated the crap out of me, and i couldn't even hurt them.

My surprisingly good unit must be the Leuce Epos. They're preety decent medium cavalry, and can change many battle outcoms between barbarian armies

[desert]

To understand my screenshot you have to watch Braveheart.

And it looks bad because it was a really small picture that I stretched out to 300% of it's original size.

[BurningEGO]

You're free to play on VH, but stop insulting those who prefer it the way it is supposed to be played.

Also most of the people here (or at least many) use house rules to male the game more difficult without making it unrealistic.

Hey, i wasnt insulting. Just joking. :clown:

Sorry if you felt offended, anyway.



Yeah, playing on Very Hard is much more difficult when you're playing a melee-based faction.

I only play melee based factions. :verycool:

The trick is letting your phalanx engage the enemy, while going around with cavalry or with some elite infantry unit and rout them one by one (or routing them all at the same time if you are capable of).

The only problem i have had, was when facing terribly good generals, or when facing these naked wild men. The naked men simply fights to the last man, except in certain ocasions, and under a good general troops get a hell of a morale bonus.

Also one should remember that killing the general causes a big, big morale drop to the enemy. All my battles are won due to morale. I will try to fraps one "total rout" of mine one of these days. When the enemy is tired, and one or more of their divisions are fleeing, i usually charge all my men, even archers, and cause everyone to flee in panick due to awesome numbers.

I always win river battles like that. The proximity between each enemy division is huge and everyone's morale will be affected.

P.S: i did see braveheard but i dont understand that picture. Can you post the smaller picture then please?

[antisocialmunky]

Archers are awesome for the 'go chase this' mission when you need your heavies to roll up the flank.

[desert]

Gosh, having to explain this just ruins the joke!

Remember in Braveheart when Gibson says that William Wallace can shoot fireballs from his eyes and bolts of lighning from his "arse"?

[Zett]

I think the people insulting the elephants dont know how to properly use them. They arent meant for every battle.

No one insulted them. Many peaple said that they are good and only a few (including me, perhaps just me...) said that they are bad, but I also admitted that they have some good points. But I didn't insulted them. If it sounds like a insult for you, I will apologize. But IMO they are too expensive for that what you get from them.

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

[soup_alex]

To understand my screenshot you have to watch Braveheart.
Aw, do I have to? :laugh4:


Remember in Braveheart when Gibson says that William Wallace can shoot fireballs from his eyes and bolts of lighning from his "arse"?
Err, no. Sorry!
My memories of "Braveheart" are now limited to the tie-in PC game ("ooh-keiyh") and infrequent references in achewood (http://achewood.com/index.php?date=02112009).

[Fluvius Camillus]

The trick is letting your phalanx engage the enemy, while going around with cavalry or with some elite infantry unit and rout them one by one (or routing them all at the same time if you are capable of).

The only problem i have had, was when facing terribly good generals, or when facing these naked wild men. The naked men simply fights to the last man, except in certain ocasions, and under a good general troops get a hell of a morale bonus.

Also one should remember that killing the general causes a big, big morale drop to the enemy. All my battles are won due to morale. I will try to fraps one "total rout" of mine one of these days. When the enemy is tired, and one or more of their divisions are fleeing, i usually charge all my men, even archers, and cause everyone to flee in panick due to awesome numbers.

I always win river battles like that. The proximity between each enemy division is huge and everyone's morale will be affected.

P.S: i did see braveheard but i dont understand that picture. Can you post the smaller picture then please?

I knew I was not the only one who played like this! I totally agree, the AI really sucks at guarding his general! Two full cavalry groups are usually enough to kill him (after some charges). This really was proven at my Epeiros campaign. I managed to kill THREE baktrian generals with a group of 25 bodyguards and two groups of mercenary horse archers, while I was totally outnumbered by him. Those three groups were all I had, he had a full stack army. I took three generals (!!!!) with me to my unavoidable grave!:2thumbsup:

You'r tactic sounds very familiar with mine, who cares if the enemy infantry has +7 whatever, if you have them pinned down by phalanghlites and a xyston/kontos using cavalry detachment charges their rear. Really, only the hardest men or wall battles (which I avoid) are fought to the very end. After my enemy starts routing the rest of the battle is just a chain reaction of routs!:smash:

About the wild men, just charge them from all sides with heavy cavalry, or shoot 'm to pieces. They have no fighting spears so they are not extremely good at charge blocking. And skin does not really block arrows or stones:clown:

Nice to hear someone who uses the same tactics!:beam:

[soup_alex]

It's starting to sound as though VH battle difficulty is only really tenable if your chosen faction has access to excellent missile troops and/or large phalanges.

[LordCurlyton]

Basically correct. Phalanxes and HAs are just too powerful in general in RTW; even EB couldn't fix that. Of course, in vanilla M2TW the "spear wall" is total crap; it stops all of jack didley, so CA overcompensated there.

[Fluvius Camillus]

Basically correct. Phalanxes and HAs are just too powerful in general in RTW; even EB couldn't fix that. Of course, in vanilla M2TW the "spear wall" is total crap; it stops all of jack didley, so CA overcompensated there.

Overpowered? I think that if a Seleucid general can just gradually walk through the phalanx I think it is underpowered. If you as a general can just walk through phalanx instead of being skerwered after the first stings, I don't actually think the phalanx is overpowered and if it is too overpowered, what makes it so unrealistic more powerful?

[BurningEGO]

I agree. In normal RTW, phalanxes WERE overpowered. I remember dropping a few near the city plaza and routing entire armies that way. Only Parthian Kataphrats were able to get through.

In EB, things are diferent. After a good while, and IF the enemy drops a crapload of men into a single point, the phalanx will eventually be broken (sometimes it doesnt even require a good quantity of men). That, or if a heavy cavalry unit charges through. Their armor points is terribly huge and even the phalanx cant kill them that fast.


About the wild men, just charge them from all sides with heavy cavalry, or shoot 'm to pieces. They have no fighting spears so they are not extremely good at charge blocking. And skin does not really block arrows or stones

Yeah i know, but sometimes i am unable to do such. Sometimes my archers are busy dealing with something else, and then the naked men manage to get engaged with some other troop of mine. I usually attack them from all sides but they keep on fighting.

Anyway about the elephants. I usually disband them at the start of my Epirus campaign, but this time i decided i would not. In a single HUGE battle against Macedonia, my elephants charged a division of Hippeis Thessalikoi and destroyed them all till they fled. They then charged an Hoplite unit, which quickly fled. Then i used them to charge yet another Hoplite unit (head to head), and a Phalanx unit from behind. They caused terrible casualties on my enemy, and i lost only 2 elephants!

They are expensive, yes, but they are battle winning troops. Damn, i just wish i could get my hands into these heavily armored bastards. Would make my army last for a very long time during these long campaigns in foreign territory since their armor rocks.

Curious stuff though, how did Pyrrhus get his hands in Elephants? If they are really indian ones, they came a LONG way. Also, how do you transport Elephants across the sea? Did the boats of that age permit such weight?

[desert]

There was a thread a month ago that has a link to Pyrrhus's elephants.

Basically, they were elephants that Alexander captured/received in India and were passed down through the successors until they reached Pyrrhus.

[Cute Wolf]

Untowered elephants are bad.... why did the Carthies are soo dumb to let their elephants didn't carry the tower it deserve?

at least the archers can kill some couple of skirmishers on the run...:laugh4:

[Banzai!]

Dude! Elephants don't cause friendly damage. So you are supposed to send in the elephants after your main line has engaged, at which point most of the enemy skirmishers should be stuck in melee with your troops. As long as they don't get hit by javs elephants are virtually invulnerable.

[LordCurlyton]

Actually, if you are super-heavy cav and feel the urge to charge a phalanx head-on, your best bet is probably to "walk in slowly". Most of the kills a spear/phalanx unit would get would likely be the initial impact of cav onto spear/pike. Negate the suicide part and your ultra-heavy armor gives you a good chance of being able to make it in closer since the pikemen/spears can only apply one human's worth of force to each strike instead of human + charging horse. That still doesn't make it smart to do so, and every time the AI tries that tactic at best they usually only get a trickle going, which are then swiftly overwhelmed by numerous phalangites.
Even then, a phalanx facing non-phalanx infantry in EB is still basically invincible. I have never once lost or even suffered major casualties from a non-phalanx infantry unit when pitting a phalanx of any quality against it. At best the non-phalanx can only hope to tire them out and hope their morale wavers, something which has happened before to me when I couldn't break the flanks quickly enough.
Its especially gratifying to watch Gaesetae or Tindanotae waste themselves on pikes.
The thing with pikes is that are basically a very cumbersome, unwieldy weapon. That's why the Galatians used their shortswordsmen to go under the pikes and get in close (to which pike users did teach new tactics to deal with that, obviously). Sadly, EB is unable to simulate that sort of "getting close". An infantry (and most cavalry) unit hits the front, it STAYS in the front, far away from the troops. The crapload of enemies that need to be dropped in a single point is far too counterproductive to be useful; I'll happily let them and encircle their troops with my unengaged phalanxes. Granted, on VH the number probably drops somewhat but is likely to still be far more than is useful.
And, of course, arrows can't have a lethality other than 1, making every arrow hit at least thrice as deadly as every hit from a xyston/kontos. If you are finding VH/VH the only way to challenge yourself, then play Sweboz (or better, Casse) on that difficulty and see whether you keep the same opinion. Heck, even Rome after it enters mid- to late-game and has to go up against the pumped up phalanxes of the Hellenes.
I'll readily admit, I find H/M to be the most enjoyable as you can still reason with the AI at times in diplomacy, the AI still hires mercenaries, and spawned Eleutheroi stacks will still on occasion besiege your cities. I can't play harder battle difficulties not through inability but because I hate "artificial" challenge boosters. I'd gladly play harder battle difficulty if each level unlocked tougher AI algorithms to face, but alas it is just stat boosting. Incidentally, this is why I loved the Galactic Civilization games since their more difficult levels actually unlocked more complex AI.

[antisocialmunky]

If you form high moral heavily armored infantry into columns and order them to run through a phalanx, it can work but you need to focus a ton of mass at a single point - something only the Romans can really do.

[Cute Wolf]

Silly answer against heavy cavalry charging your phalanx.....

If your enemy plays a lot (or even all) of HC army, you just need to form a box of pikes, with archers inside... and watch the enemy suicide before your pikes...

*. Borrowed from Vanilla greek cities tactic...

[A Very Super Market]

Do not even get me started on vanilla phalanxes. I basically made a wall, and was invincible for the rest of the game. NO ONE could get through, the Horse Archers ran out of arrows after killing 10 guys (And losing a lot more from my mercs) and I eventually added artillery, which just destroyed everything before it even got to my 3 gold chevron Spartans. But I couldn't attack anyone at all

[Dutchhoplite]

These guys:

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/eleutheroi/celtic/rebel_northern_curoas.gif

I use them in my Casse campaign but they never do what i expect of them :no:

[Fluvius Camillus]

Actually, if you are super-heavy cav and feel the urge to charge a phalanx head-on, your best bet is probably to "walk in slowly". Most of the kills a spear/phalanx unit would get would likely be the initial impact of cav onto spear/pike. Negate the suicide part and your ultra-heavy armor gives you a good chance of being able to make it in closer since the pikemen/spears can only apply one human's worth of force to each strike instead of human + charging horse. That still doesn't make it smart to do so, and every time the AI tries that tactic at best they usually only get a trickle going, which are then swiftly overwhelmed by numerous phalangites.
Even then, a phalanx facing non-phalanx infantry in EB is still basically invincible. I have never once lost or even suffered major casualties from a non-phalanx infantry unit when pitting a phalanx of any quality against it. At best the non-phalanx can only hope to tire them out and hope their morale wavers, something which has happened before to me when I couldn't break the flanks quickly enough.
Its especially gratifying to watch Gaesetae or Tindanotae waste themselves on pikes.
The thing with pikes is that are basically a very cumbersome, unwieldy weapon. That's why the Galatians used their shortswordsmen to go under the pikes and get in close (to which pike users did teach new tactics to deal with that, obviously). Sadly, EB is unable to simulate that sort of "getting close". An infantry (and most cavalry) unit hits the front, it STAYS in the front, far away from the troops. The crapload of enemies that need to be dropped in a single point is far too counterproductive to be useful; I'll happily let them and encircle their troops with my unengaged phalanxes. Granted, on VH the number probably drops somewhat but is likely to still be far more than is useful.
And, of course, arrows can't have a lethality other than 1, making every arrow hit at least thrice as deadly as every hit from a xyston/kontos. If you are finding VH/VH the only way to challenge yourself, then play Sweboz (or better, Casse) on that difficulty and see whether you keep the same opinion. Heck, even Rome after it enters mid- to late-game and has to go up against the pumped up phalanxes of the Hellenes.
I'll readily admit, I find H/M to be the most enjoyable as you can still reason with the AI at times in diplomacy, the AI still hires mercenaries, and spawned Eleutheroi stacks will still on occasion besiege your cities. I can't play harder battle difficulties not through inability but because I hate "artificial" challenge boosters. I'd gladly play harder battle difficulty if each level unlocked tougher AI algorithms to face, but alas it is just stat boosting. Incidentally, this is why I loved the Galactic Civilization games since their more difficult levels actually unlocked more complex AI.

Yes but extremely heavy cavalry is supposed to survive a head on charge in the phalanx. Do this with hellenic cataphracts vs pantodapoi phalanx and they'll charge through them. I think that is supposed to happen, but a single general gradually walking through seems pretty unrealistic to me. But really, what is so unrealistic about infantry not breaching the pikes? Just imagine, 120 people, holding extremely long spears poking all in your direction from a fortified position, I don't really see how you should get through then.

About the difficulty, I don't always play VH/VH, on my Pontos campaign for example I am trying H/H, to let the AI have some bonuses and I heard that Hard campaign only makes the AI less aggressive


I agree. In normal RTW, phalanxes WERE overpowered. I remember dropping a few near the city plaza and routing entire armies that way. Only Parthian Kataphrats were able to get through.

If your enemy plays a lot (or even all) of HC army, you just need to form a box of pikes, with archers inside... and watch the enemy suicide before your pikes...

*. Borrowed from Vanilla greek cities tactic...
Oh how I love the box formation, saved cities from the house of bruttii/scipii with that!


These guys:

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/eleutheroi/celtic/rebel_northern_curoas.gif

I use them in my Casse campaign but they never do what i expect of them

Hmm, they usually do when I use them. Just another mercenary group which can come in quite handy or hold the line.

[Mooks]

No one insulted them. Many peaple said that they are good and only a few (including me, perhaps just me...) said that they are bad, but I also admitted that they have some good points. But I didn't insulted them. If it sounds like a insult for you, I will apologize. But IMO they are too expensive for that what you get from them.

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam



Apologize? I wouldnt accept it, since you have nothing to apologize for. And this here is the internet, no need to be so polite.

Elephants are well worth it (Unless as garrisons). They are able to destroy both phalanx and Close combat troops. Sometimes though they do peform very poorly.

--

Hellenic factions arent "Melee" based factions in my book. Dacians, sweboz, the gauls are. Its ridiculously easy winning with a phalanx army and most of the troops dont really get in "Hand to hand" combat but just push their stick a few feet foward and repeat.

Granted, I despise phalanx troops though. Dont understand how someone can have fun with them.

[richardfburton]

I find that elephants if used correctly are an awesome unit well worth their cost. They can be decisive in a battle. If the enemy has skirmishers, especially javelins, then these must be destroyed before sending in the elephants. Likewise, they are at their most effective when taking pinned units in the flank or in the rear, backed up if needed by flanking infantry and cavalry to ensure that units that rout are not able to rally.

[Fluvius Camillus]

I find that elephants if used correctly are an awesome unit well worth their cost. They can be decisive in a battle. If the enemy has skirmishers, especially javelins, then these must be destroyed before sending in the elephants. Likewise, they are at their most effective when taking pinned units in the flank or in the rear, backed up if needed by flanking infantry and cavalry to ensure that units that rout are not able to rally.

Imagine your phalanx is pinned down with enemy phalanx and the enemy morale is not really high. Well I know how it feels if you charge the enemy phalanx from the back with elephants then, it is awesome and elephants are fantastic units!

"It's raining men":laugh4:

[satalexton]

"It's raining men":laugh4:

"HALLELUJAH!"
"It's raining men! Every specimen!"
"Tall, blond, dark and lean~ Rough and tough and strong and mean~~~~~~"

The armoured ones doo better =P more 'needle' proof too!

[Tollheit]

Druxtiz Xeruska:
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/sweboz/sweboz_druhtiz_herusku.gif
Compared to ordinary Xerunoudozez, the Druxtiz Xeruska sucks is somewhat disappointing.
Same price, higher morale (doesn't matter since they are all dead before any other longsword unit would rout), recruitable in only one province, severly worse armor, worse stamina (in spite of being unarmored!), negligibly better javelin attack.
Contrary to the description, these dudes are not "exceptional in defense", and their formation isn't any bit denser than their neighbour's Xerunoudozez, either.

[desert]

Xerounoudozez? You mean Herubrukonez?

Why are you replacing the H's with X's?

[Tollheit]

Xerunoudozez:
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/sweboz/sweboz_herunautoz.gif
I'm using the new and improved EB 1.2 protogermanic nomenclature.~;)

[desert]

Yeah, those are Herubrukonez according to EB 1.1.

Ironic that the only thing keeping me from upgrading is a Sweboz campaign.

[antisocialmunky]

Xerounoudozez? You mean Herubrukonez?

Why are you replacing the H's with X's?

I guess the EB German guy was right that the X's were going to freak people out.

[SwissBarbar]

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/arverni/arverni_lugoae.gif

During my Arverni Campaing I detected the Lugoae to be far more useful than I thought. They are cheap like hell, available in great numbers and can hold a line against heavy warriors long enough to circle around them with heavier infantry or cavalry and attack their rear. Especially when they already have some experience, they are very useful.

They are not meant to win battles against heavier soldiers alone, but though are still far more capable than I expected and therefore diserved to be mentionned in this thread ;-)

[seienchin]

Yes and no. They can hold lines, but dont do any damage and even worse they die like flies when attacked with Javelinnes, which realy gives you a bad day against most other celtic or roman enemies and never even try to fight iberians with them :help:
I think they are unsurprisingly bad.:2thumbsup:

[Rilder]

Gaemile Liguriae (Ligurian Infantry)
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/eleutheroi/italy/rebel_gaemile_liguriae.gif

This babies are the mainstray of my Ligurian army in my Aedui campaign (RPing that Liguria is independant but a protectorate of the Aedui)

They can stand face to face with the romans, and win, they also seem pretty flexible. (Though a bug makes them always stand the wrong way while in formation)

[antisocialmunky]

Those guys are pretty good. I like them because the are basically a good version of Celtic levy spearmen.

[A Very Super Market]

Ligurians are basically slightly weaker Romans, but they have a lot more men per unit, making them very good for any Gauls working to sack Rome again.

[machinor]

That's true. I love 'em, too. They are the bane of any Roman Republic being invaded by foreign armies.

[SwissBarbar]

Yes and no. They can hold lines, but dont do any damage and even worse they die like flies when attacked with Javelinnes, which realy gives you a bad day against most other celtic or roman enemies and never even try to fight iberians with them :help:
I think they are unsurprisingly bad.:2thumbsup:

As I said, some experience points, and they even hold their ground against mean Iberians ;-) I tested it. Please note, that I always play on Medium Battle difficulty for balancing reasons. On VH or so, I wouldn't recruit them either. I think wether they're good or bad is to be decided from the point of view how you use them ;-)

[BurningEGO]

On Very Hard these guys are a nightmare. In my first and hopefully last Roman Campaign, these guys have been tearing my men apart. If i dont flank them or cause a major rout, they will kill my army without doubt.

They are nasty man, nasty.

[A Very Super Market]

Gah, experience points don't count man! Veterans are expected to be better than fresh recruits.

[SwissBarbar]

yes, but Veteran Lugoae are not expected to be so good :wall: basta

[A Very Super Market]

They're expected to be better than regular Lugoae, aren't they? And if they perform better than fresh recruits, its nothing special.

[Zett]

We should stop talking about experience points. IMO only freshly recruited units should count.

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

[SwissBarbar]

Now I am a bit annoyed. Let me try again to make it inescapably cear:

I t - i s - n o t - e x p e c t e d - t h a t - t h o s e - m o r e - e x p e r i e n c e d - s o l d i e r s - h o l d - t h e i r - g r o u n d - s o - g o o d - a g a i n s t - o t h e r - a n d - b e t t e r - u n i t s (which are not Lugoae, but other units. Nonlugoaeic units, which are better armoured and armed than the Lugoae themselves, but are not Lugoae in any from - be it veteran or recruit) :whip: :whip: :whip:

If this does not convince you:

At least to me they are unexpectedly good. I don't say they're great elite warriors, I only say they can do more than I expected. If you didn't expect them to be worse than they are, so to you they are not surprisingly good. Voilà. You have the right to think so. That's the reason why I posted them to be unexpectedly good and not you.

It's completely clear, that more experienced units are better than unexperienced units of the same kind. That's not the point at all.

Any further questions?

[Zett]

Any further questions?

:2thumbsup: I respect your point of view. I only said that i think they shouldnt count (my opinion) nothing else.:beam:

And on topic:https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/arche-seleukeia/seleukid_katpatuka_zanteush.gif

The Katpatuka Zanteush (Cappadoccian Hillmen) are my "wall-defense-unit" at my currently KH campaign, they are not able to beat enemy elites on the field, but on a wall they are able to slaughter even Peltastai Makedonikoi or Hayasdan elite units.

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

[SwissBarbar]

OK ^^

[BurningEGO]

Gah, experience points don't count man! Veterans are expected to be better than fresh recruits.

Oups, sorry, but i was speaking of game dificulty... isnt that diferent from experience points? :dizzy2:

[Ludens]

On Very Hard these guys are a nightmare. In my first and hopefully last Roman Campaign, these guys have been tearing my men apart. If i dont flank them or cause a major rout, they will kill my army without doubt.

But VH screws up game balance, so that's hardly a good reference. On VH any A.I. controlled unit will do major damage.

[heldelance]

I'm playing in normal difficulty right now because I realized that for some reason, my 6 star general with 2 Uirodiosos acting as morale boosters/breakers and the elite Getai Spearmen as my linesmen were breaking and running even when fighting inferior units like the hoplite mercs. Kinda cheesed me off because by all accounts I should have had far more morale.

Anyway, to the units.

As Getai, I find that the elite spearmen are excellent lineholders even against pikemen, they just don't break easy. Bit on the expensive side but I feel they're more than worth their gold, excellent on wall defense too but I've noticed they're not as spectacular on wall offense.

Komatai Thorakitai Stratiotai (Dacian Heavy Phalanx)
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/getai/getai_komatai_thorakitai_s.gif


Another awesome unit is one that I find indispensable are the Boii Cingetos. Decent linesmen but their speed makes them much better as flankers. They're kinda like the kluddolons (another useful unit, easier to acquire than Boii when campaigning east) but better able to withstand missile fire. I usually use them in conjunction with Drapanai, they guard against enemy counter attacks while the drapanai rip into the enemy from behind.

Boii Cingetos (Boii Swordsmen)
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/eleutheroi/easteurope/ele_boii_infantry.gif

[heldelance]

Sorry for the double post but I've got a few more to add. :laugh4:

The Skuda Fistaeg Fat Aexsdzhytae (Scythian Foot Archers) are insanely good for knocking out mounted skirmishers and other archers. Long range (same as Cretan archers) and decent damage and they seem to only take light casualties when arrow dueling. Pretty cheap as well, I use them heavily for wall defense since they'll cause huge casualties before the enemy even gets to the walls.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/eleutheroi/steppe-euro/rebel_scythianfootarchers.gif

The samnite swordsmen (the ones Roma use a lot) are insanely annoying, archers don't do jack against them even from behind they only take light casualties and skirmishers are just as useless against them.
Bloody annoying to have to fight them.

My surprisingly bad unit(s) are pretty much any infantry from the east. Barring the elites, most of the infantry collapse like wet toilet paper when my troops roll in. A frontal charge by my Rhomphaiaphoroi is like seeing a chunk of meat going through a mincer (the meat being the eastern infantry) Some of the non-elites do hold up well like the Ethiopian Swordsmen who do tend to give my mediums a run for their money and they manage to resist my Rhomps. Thorakitai and Thureophoroi troops do tend to hold much better though.

[A Very Super Market]

Well, get far enough East and you will find Indians, which are just insane, even without armour or anything.

[antisocialmunky]

My surprisingly bad unit(s) are pretty much any infantry from the east. Barring the elites, most of the infantry collapse like wet toilet paper when my troops roll in. A frontal charge by my Rhomphaiaphoroi is like seeing a chunk of meat going through a mincer (the meat being the eastern infantry) Some of the non-elites do hold up well like the Ethiopian Swordsmen who do tend to give my mediums a run for their money and they manage to resist my Rhomps. Thorakitai and Thureophoroi troops do tend to hold much better though.

Well the the steriotypical 'peasant levy with spear' kinda suck but most of the eastern light infantry is pretty good. Caucasian Sparabara are my personal favorite of that type.

[heldelance]

I gotta say that some of the eastern light infantry are problematic once they outflank you but they still can't hold the line worth a damn. They'll hold against most light and some medium cavalry but against infantry (I'm using Boii Cingetos and Rhomps with a couple of Gaesatae troops as line breakers) they really just won't hold at all.

[desert]

That's a bit unfair, though.

Rhompaiaphoroi and Gaesatae are the best of the best and will defeat even Spartans handily, and you expect crappy unarmored levies with spears or axes and shields made out of their armpit hairs to hold them off?

https://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr309/desertSypglass/getai_thraikioi_rhomphaia.gif

[antisocialmunky]

Those light infantry beat Spartans. They're only good against heavily armored infantry. Not naked dudes.

[heldelance]

Heh, my favorite "tactic" when there's a lot of eastern infantry is to set up my rhomps so they're only 2 deep and backed up by Gaesatae in 3 deep. Just do a frontal charge and watch the enemy get absolutely slaughtered. Need some flankers though because the easties always wrap around my guys.

[desert]

Those light infantry beat Spartans.

Pfft! Yeah - if you surround the Spartans with 2 units of them while having the ones behind the Spartans throw all their javelins before charging!

[A Very Super Market]

Well gosh, that isn't much is that. It takes at least 3 units of levy hoplites to not get wiped out by them. With cavalry support. That is pretty good.

[antisocialmunky]

Pfft! Yeah - if you surround the Spartans with 2 units of them while having the ones behind the Spartans throw all their javelins before charging!

Not really. I've seen them just shred Spartans. I mean, if the Spartans don't die not unless they are undermanned, they are pretty messed up by the end of the battle. I'm refering to campaign experiences of course. 2 battles without a resupply leads to only a hand full of Spartans that you can't do anything with.

For a 1000-1400 unit to easily destroy the combat effectiveness for a 3000 unit is amazing.

[desert]

My fresh hoplites would BURN those guys within 30 seconds when I had to face them. Then again, they were Ekdromoi, but same difference.

[antisocialmunky]

Those are light hoplites though. Not heavily armored elites.

[desert]

There's only one way to settle this - custom match showdown.

I'll see you by the sheriff's office tomorrow at noon. If you ain't a coward, that is. :whip:

[antisocialmunky]

I'm not a coward, I have work and a test and I don't know what your time zone is.

[Nachtmeister]

Not really. I've seen them just shred Spartans. I mean, if the Spartans don't die not unless they are undermanned, they are pretty messed up by the end of the battle. I'm refering to campaign experiences of course. 2 battles without a resupply leads to only a hand full of Spartans that you can't do anything with.

For a 1000-1400 unit to easily destroy the combat effectiveness for a 3000 unit is amazing.



That's why you don't send Spartans into combat without support. The only times I can think of that they fought unsupported by other infantry against numerically superior forces and were successful were both with un-usual terrain (Thermopylae and the Messenian wars in front of that trench rendering a retreat but also a double-envelopment impossible). You want to prevent any melee units from getting *behind* the Spartans and use them *only* in defend-mode (unless you are instants from routing the enemy).
Then, they are positively a fortress. Even sarissa phalanxes don't penetrate them as long as you do not try to actually run through the phalanx from the front with them. This and the fact that they take up formation much faster than any sarissa phalanx makes them a very valuable asset in any infantry-reliant army whereas an army composed only of them is not going to be very effective. Use them as they would have been used historically - as an absolute elite of the elites, a very specialized unit for holding the line against *any* frontal assault ('xcept elephants, that is - never tried that one as it seems a bit stupid). But make sure it is always a frontal assault.

[antisocialmunky]

This is from the front as in a ton of cheap infantry hitting a line of 8 Spartans and engaging in protracted melee. Interestingly, I've learned after those battles the hard way that its actually better to use normal attack mode againstl ight infantry since they usually have really high stamina and those AP weapons will do way more damage the longer you let them grind at your infantry. It is actually more efficient to kill them as fast as you can rather than grind.

[Nachtmeister]

This is from the front as in a ton of cheap infantry hitting a line of 8 Spartans and engaging in protracted melee. Interestingly, I've learned after those battles the hard way that its actually better to use normal attack mode againstl ight infantry since they usually have really high stamina and those AP weapons will do way more damage the longer you let them grind at your infantry. It is actually more efficient to kill them as fast as you can rather than grind.


Sorry, my bad, I didn't mean "grind" - I meant "pin and flank with prodromoi, then watch them die horribly" somehow similar to the beautiful graphical equation some posts above. :laugh4:

[desert]

It was a joke. Just post the results whenever you want.

[Tollheit]

Meh, Spartans, Spartans, Spartans. What were they ever good for?
I'd rather pay the extra 28 mnai and get myself some proper Epilektoi Hoplitai.

[A Very Super Market]

Hoplites inevitably take casualties, but Spartans are the best reserve possible.

[heldelance]

Spartan hoplites are damned good if you've got them well supported, but then again, who has an unsupported hoplite army? :laugh4:
However, they just cannot hold too long against Rhomps (as if anything could). Frontal charged spartans with my rhomps and found that they;ll hold against the initial charge but they'll start dropping like flies afterward. Even then, they're nigh on impossible to break.

[antisocialmunky]

I just use them as a reserve as someone else mention. They unit size is too small and they are too hard to come by to be sued as line infantry.

[desert]

Technically, with their bronze breastplates and stout shields, it should be nearly impossible to kill Spartan(s) with light infantry. But oh well.

I'll test it on Friday.

[A Very Super Market]

Axes. Are. Insane.

The whole point of one is so you can penetrate armour with a small weapon.

[desert]

Yes, but will they have time to swing their axes once the phalanx crashes into them?

Even if they crack a shield in half, they're likely to be stabbed, and a spear wound for an unarmored guy often means that they're out of the battle. And if someone is literally pushing them aside with a big shield, backed by 7 guys right behind him, it's more likely that they'll just run.

[A Very Super Market]

They, uh... step to the side?

The idea is that you smash these guys into the flank, not a frontal assault on freaking Spartans. Which is what all light infantry is for, come to think of it, but these guys do it better.

[desert]

Well, exactly. If they step to the side, they'll just get trampled/speared by the next guy.

And that's why a mile-long line of hoplites in a plain with Spartans on the right will be able to crush 200000 of those axemen while taking about 1% casualties.

[Mooks]

Well, exactly. If they step to the side, they'll just get trampled/speared by the next guy.

And that's why a mile-long line of hoplites in a plain with Spartans on the right will be able to crush 200000 of those axemen while taking about 1% casualties.

pics or it never happened (or can) :smash:

[desert]

Sure thing, I'll just hop into my DeLorean and visit my old pal Thuce. :laugh4:

[heldelance]

The axemen in the east will drop like flies if they charge into anything head on. They don't have the armor to last in a frontal melee, they'll cause a few casualties in the beginning but soon they'll get hacked apart. Light infantry should only be used to attack enemy flanks (they're damned fast) or to prevent the enemy from hitting the line's flanks. Even when defending, you'd better have something sturdier to back them up because they'll collapse if the flankers are medium or higher.

One of the reasons why a mile long line of Spartans could kick their asses is that the Spartans were like robots with a spear and shield, the eastern axemen weren't exactly the most ferocious group and were pretty likely to fall apart should the battle not go their way quickly. Celts were more likely to break the spartan lines because of their ferocity.

[desert]

I meant a mile-long line of hoplites clad in bronze breastplates with Spartans in the position of honor at the right.

If there were enough Spartans to make a mile-long phalanx, then they would have just conquered the whole world. :dizzy2:

Or at least Greece.

[Ca Putt]

spartans are imo exactly what you expect of them, nothing more nothing less, they just stand there and just don't die or run away, they just stand there and hold the line, they don't kill to many foes but they are just too stubbern to die :D combined with lance cavalary, Elite archers, twohanded ones or anything else that kills a lot but dies when engaged they pwn about everything. still, they have to be used with caution because they cost their share.

[antisocialmunky]

Hoplites in general excel at the whole sit there and don't die job.

[Mooks]

Meh, I still despise phalanxes. So boring, so slow, so repetitive.

[Cullhwch]

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/eleutheroi/northafrica/rebel_numidian_javelinmen.gif

I find these guys to be surprisingly good. They're dirt cheap, easy to recruit, throw lots of javelins, and last just long enough in melee for me to charge the Numidian Cavalry home. An all-Numidian army consisting of a Libyan General, 6 units of skirmishers, 2-4 cavalry, and a few archers is absolutely excellent for mopping up the last bits of Carthaginian resistance in North Africa. Does anyone else use this setup?

[Ibrahim]

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/eleutheroi/northafrica/rebel_numidian_javelinmen.gif

I find these guys to be surprisingly good. They're dirt cheap, easy to recruit, throw lots of javelins, and last just long enough in melee for me to charge the Numidian Cavalry home. An all-Numidian army consisting of a Libyan General, 6 units of skirmishers, 2-4 cavalry, and a few archers is absolutely excellent for mopping up the last bits of Carthaginian resistance in North Africa. Does anyone else use this setup?

when I played as romani, they were useful as a form of irregulars, so as to pillage and raid the insides or carthaginian teritory-critical for me when you consider that I keep to the coast. they preformed wonderfully indeed. :yes:

[desert]

OK, I ran a few tests.

1 match with Eastern Axemen vs AI Spartans: 174 killed - 36 killed

2 matches with Spartans vs AI; default formation used: 20 - 179
37 - 162

2 matches with Spartans vs AI; 8-shields-deep: 33 - 153
13 - 161

1 match with Spartans vs AI; maximum line length: 19 v 125

The AI of course did retarded things like try to throw missiles while I mauled their lines, and run away after having done so only to charge me and repeat the whole process every 30 seconds.

[A Very Super Market]

Nobody would send those guys solo against Spartans. There is no point. You send them into the flank. Thus, your information is INVALID!!!! :P

[desert]

Eh, no, because I was trying to find out how Spartans would fare against Eastern axemen in a head-on collision. So it is valid. In reality, the Spartans would lose a couple men, while the axemen would lose 50 men, at which point they would rout.

[Aemilius Paulus]

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/eleutheroi/northafrica/rebel_numidian_javelinmen.gif

Did these guys get re-skinned in 1.2?? In 1.1 they have a completely different skin. And I am still playing 1.1.

[A Very Super Market]

What do they look like in 1.1? Frankly, I hate their current skin. Maybe its just my slight OCD talking, but it just looks so dirty. One of the reasons why I dislike using Illyrians.

[Mediolanicus]

You dislike using Illyrians because you don't like the way Numidians look like :inquisitive:

[Zett]

You dislike using Illyrians because you don't like the way Numidians look like :inquisitive:

He dislikes the "dirty" look of them, if i got him right.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/epeiros/epi_illyrian_pirate.gifhttps://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/kart-hadast/kart_numidian_javelinmen.gif

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

[Phalanx300]

I could classify all Hoplite units as Suprisingly bad, they are really underpowered in EB. They were killing machines from the front, as prooven by Thermopylae where even the non Spartans were slaugtering the Persians from the front. In EB Hoplites drop to easilly from the front, guard mode only makes it worse.

Hoplites rely on destroying the enemy from the front, not to rely on cavalry or light infantry to do it from the back. Which is really one of the bad points of EB, Hoplites should be given some sort of formation to better portray their real Phalanx.

Right now they just fight as individual soldiers. :shame:

[Mediolanicus]

When fighting Epeiros as the Romani in my campaign I had serious trouble with their Hoplitai.
Epeiros moved to Greece in my campaign and were throwing stacks full of Hoplitai and Thorakitai. I found the Thorakitai much easier to kill than the Hoplitai.

[Phalanx300]

Stat wise the Thorakitai are better. The point is that the Hoplites aren't really good enough portrayed in EB :shame:.