Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition

[Apázlinemjó]

http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.net/pics/Info/hellenistic_chariot_scythed_INFO.jpg

Spearmen and Heavy cavalry can destroy them very fast, so you have to use them carefully or they begin to rout or run amok and get you a sad defeat.

[antisocialmunky]

Its pretty funny when they run amok into your elephants and rout them.

[Apázlinemjó]

Its pretty funny when they run amok into your elephants and rout them.

Chain run amok, rofl, never seen that yet.

[Apraxiteles]

Don't charge cataphracts with them. They die in hilarious fashion.

Huh. When I tested them one on one versus Hellenikoi and Hetairoi Kataphraktoi, the Scythed Chariots ate them for breakfast, taking very few casualties. I tend to use them for exactly that purpose. All those spikes are AP, and seem to chew right through armored horses like a huge meat-grinder. But then, maybe it depends on which ones you're using. The Seleukid ones have 4 more armor points than the Pontic ones.

Also, chain run-amok with chariots and elephants is the most hilariously destructive thing ever.

[Companion Cavalry]

For the category of "surprising goodly" I nominate the Dahai Hippotoxotae.
Useful, unless going up against other horse-archers.

[Ibrahim]

Chain run amok, rofl, never seen that yet.

I have. it can quite literally be a bloody mess. I had that with the Pontus army while I was playing as A.S. ; my peltastai threw a hail of javelins that killed a few charioteers, which caused the horses to jerk in most inconvenient ways-this led them to crash into their own men, including another squad of chariots, and they in turn jerked in inconvenient ways. I practically won the battle without most of the men charging sarrissas.:laugh4:

no elephants were used, but its still hilarious to watch. :clown:

seriously,though, chain run amoks can be nasty.:no:

[satalexton]

amok units hurt both sides don't they? lucky they didn't run into you :clown:

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

I used to do 20 on 20 unit battles in Vanilla and by far the most fun were either 20 wardogs on 20 wardogs or 20 ellies on 20 ellies. The elephant battles were determined by who had the best luck in having the last unit of elephants to run amok. :beam:

[satalexton]

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/hayasdan/hay_kardaka.gif

A break from my philhellenic traditions.

No where near as solid as true hoplitai, they have swords. They can hold anything short of a catank charge, and can go toe to toe against the barbaroi in a chop-fest thanks to their large aspis. While that's happening, MY catanks can wheel around and literally mow them barbaroi from behind.

[Companion Cavalry]

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/makedonia/mak_taxeis_hoplitai.gif

These chaps can hold their ground against barbaroi swordsmen for surprising lengths of time,
while the heavy cavalry crush the enemy wings, wheel around, and charge the enemy infantry.

[Ibrahim]

amok units hurt both sides don't they? lucky they didn't run into you :clown:

yes they do so to both sides. I had that happen once when I was in IBFD, but luckily javelinmen were vailable to knock them down-not before I lost 150 men from the rampaging elephants.:wall: (yes, I did win the battle)

[godsakes]

Another good:
Iberian Assault Infantry
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/kart-hadast/iberian_assault_infantry.gif

Exclusively Carthaginian unit. Again excellent ratio: price/effectiveness.

They beat most infantry units available in the game, for example any roman infantry unit 1 on 1, all phalanxes units 1 on1 (if they have access to their sides). Only most expensive infantry elites can beat them, but it means it must be much more expensive infantry than 2239 mnai.
They are good against missiles because of armor.

Their weaknesses are: - they got exhausted quickly as heavy inf, they must avoid chariots and they are less effective against cav then spearmen.
The best use is against infantry lines of any type.

they're a great unit, but one of their flaws is their weapons can't be upgraded

i tend to find by the time i can get them, i've long since held italy and been spitting out (upgraded) samite heavy infantry and conentrate on recuriting pikemen in the home regions

[satalexton]

they, like all karchdoi reform units, have an extra attack point put into account for the 'cant be upgraded' trait. The reasoning is that you are assumed to have built blacksmiths in all of your major recruiting centres.

[dragoon47]

I found the Holitai Haploi to be a surprisingly good unit too. When I was conquering Greece I once had one unit of them try to hold off the Spartan general while my phalangites ate up their main line and they were still fighting them when I was done with the rest of the army, albeit having taken nearly 60% losses, but their losses alone without routing shows their strange resilience, especially with a general unit behind them cheering them on.

EDIT: I probably should also mention that those Spartans may have been in guard mode, so that's another lucky thing, otherwise I think they would have just plowed through the Hoplitai.

[Watchman]

they're a great unit, but one of their flaws is their weapons can't be upgradedAs with all the "siege reform" units with un-upgradeable weapons, they already have the +1 to both attacks factored in.

[godsakes]

As with all the "siege reform" units with un-upgradeable weapons, they already have the +1 to both attacks factored in.

aye, i'm just pointing out that if you already have italy capable of producing upgraded (via blacksmith/temple/gov 4) samite heavy infantry - i'd argue they're a better value alternative and strategically i personally (in the home regions) produce mostly pikemen & calvary ship them off to italy to be reinforced by samite heavy infantry & hastati and maybe the odd classical hospite before moving them on (maybe adding some cretan archers if they're on the way)

the iberian unit would still have better morale and would last longer in a really prolonged battle, or if they were being used as line infantry. So while i can accept they are a better unit, rarely do i find myself in a situation where i need the iberian version over the (cheaper) samite version (but bare in mind i do gear my southern cites in italy for war production - so i get temple/gov4/blacksmiths bonuses)

[antisocialmunky]

Huh. When I tested them one on one versus Hellenikoi and Hetairoi Kataphraktoi, the Scythed Chariots ate them for breakfast, taking very few casualties. I tend to use them for exactly that purpose. All those spikes are AP, and seem to chew right through armored horses like a huge meat-grinder. But then, maybe it depends on which ones you're using. The Seleukid ones have 4 more armor points than the Pontic ones.

Also, chain run-amok with chariots and elephants is the most hilariously destructive thing ever.

In several online battles using Baktria in a heavlong charge vs Scythed chariots, Baktrian Super Kataphracts win every time. Now, if the horses don't go for a straight charge... well poop. You lose.

[Apraxiteles]

Ah, that explains it. They can't handle the cataphract charge. Interesting. If I ever start playing online battles, I'll have to remember that.

[athanaric]

I have. it can quite literally be a bloody mess. I had that with the Pontus army while I was playing as A.S. ; my peltastai threw a hail of javelins that killed a few charioteers, which caused the horses to jerk in most inconvenient ways-this led them to crash into their own men, including another squad of chariots, and they in turn jerked in inconvenient ways. I practically won the battle without most of the men charging sarrissas.:laugh4:


I once won a not-really-serious custom battle with basically 1 unit of Arab Archer-Spearmen: They shot flaming arrows at the advancing chariots, causing them to run amok instantly and run back straight into a unit of 100 Asiatikoi Hippakontistai, all of whom were killed by their own chariot "friends"! My archers meanwhile were unscathed...

[Andy1984]

Huh. When I tested them one on one versus Hellenikoi and Hetairoi Kataphraktoi, the Scythed Chariots ate them for breakfast, taking very few casualties. I tend to use them for exactly that purpose. All those spikes are AP, and seem to chew right through armored horses like a huge meat-grinder. But then, maybe it depends on which ones you're using. The Seleukid ones have 4 more armor points than the Pontic ones.

Also, chain run-amok with chariots and elephants is the most hilariously destructive thing ever.

It depends on how you use them and in what situation you're in. Charge them frontally into an unengaged unit of heavy cavalry and your chariots are done. Charge them in loose formation through a unit of cavalry that is moving or shattered for some reason, and the cavalry is done.

Agreed, they can be taken out quite easily, but then they do only have an upkeep of 900... which is less then most heavy cavalry units.

About the amok feature: I had more than once enemy elephants running amok through streets, killing another unit of enemy elephants... and basically routing an attacking army that way. Making elephants run amok in a city (or chariots) is to me something like a 'last defensive option'. (Yes I admit to have 'sacrificed' my chariots for that specific purpose in the past...)

[antisocialmunky]

I've always wanted to like 400 elephants up and shoot one in the left so they domino.

[WinsingtonIII]

No, the Getic phalanxes don't have AP. Their secondary weapon, like the Komatai, is the sica, which isn't AP.

That doesn't make them any less *awesome*, though. They are your best line infantry, well able to hold anything attacking from the front in place so that you can flank with Drapanai and the like.

And to disagree with WinsingtonIII here: I think that the Komatai Thorakitai Stratiotai (Dacian Heavy Phalanx) is among the best heavy spearmen units available.

And as for the Boii Cingetos: admittedly, I haven't used them yet, but I might have an idea on how you (APX) tried to employ them. They are not meant to be thrown headlong into the frontal assault. With only 7 armor, they are prone to death by missiles. Rather, use them to flank the enemy.

Oh I agree that they're very good spearmen, I was just saying that you can't expect them to do anything ridiculous, but if you use them properly as pinners they're very good. I just used a poor choice of words there saying that they aren't the best heavy spearmen. I think what I meant is that they aren't very versatile compared to your other infantry as the Getai (but this isn't really fair because the Getai have some of the most versatile infantry in the game).

[DaciaJC]

Oh I agree that they're very good spearmen, I was just saying that you can't expect them to do anything ridiculous, but if you use them properly as pinners they're very good. I just used a poor choice of words there saying that they aren't the best heavy spearmen. I think what I meant is that they aren't very versatile compared to your other infantry as the Getai (but this isn't really fair because the Getai have some of the most versatile infantry in the game).

Got ya. :2thumbsup: Yes, they have a specific role, but they excel in that role.

[Companion Cavalry]

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/baktria/bak_kavakaza_kof.gif

Highly efficient elephant killers, and, for their cost, excellent at skirmishing. Due to their unit size, they literally shower enemy lines with javelins. As a bonus, these guys can be recruited a stone's throw away from the Indian regions, where you'll be facing eleutheroi stacks with elephants.

[satalexton]

agree. I use these dudes to screen my catanks. I export them all the way to Italia (as Baktra) to serve as assault troops, which they do surprisingly well at >=D

[WinsingtonIII]

Got ya. :2thumbsup: Yes, they have a specific role, but they excel in that role.

I also like to use them because I feel like it's historically inaccurate to neglect them and just use Drapanai and Komatai. Their description does say that they are the "nucleus of the getic infantry line" or something like that.

[Ludens]

For example I've read of this one guy who arrived at his post as the commander of a legion stationed in Syria or thereabouts (during one of those lulls in the sporadic wars with the Iranians natch) only to find out his new underlings were by *far* more competent in gambling and whoring than soldiering.
So he took them to military exercises in the Armenian highlands... :whip:

That was Gnaeus Domitius Corbulo. According to one chronicler he even found soldiers that had sold their armour. Goldsworthy does caution that tales of famous commanders finding their new command in a dismal state and immediately impose a strict discipline, are something of a Roman literary cliché.

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

*BUMP*

https://europabarbarorum.com/i/units/pontos/pon_kuarothoroi.gif

I hold these guys in high esteem. My Pontos campaign taught me this, alas - Put them on the flank of a phalanx and they'll be extremely valuable. They hardly die alas! Plus they are quite cheap and numerous for elite infantry, which is what the free exp and weapon upgrades turn them into once Ankyra gets a decent infrastructure.

In fact I favour them over the Galatian Wild Men. The East is full of archers and missile troops which can massacre them, but the Kuarothoroi are extremely well armoured, have a better shield and thus are much stronger under missile fire.

I didn't build Galatian Heavy Cavalry since it requires a level 4 regional MIC, but once I finish up building Ankara I'll switch govts. and build it. Needless to say Galatians provide almost everything you need in a Pontos campaign: superior heavy infantry, the best heavy cavalry you can get mid-game plus good, cheap and flexible light infantry. And the best light cavalry in the world (Leuce Epos), IMO.

[Julius Augustus]

I don't know why, but in my experience, Pontic heavy spearmen haven't been too effective. A unit of legionnarries can beat them, as can agrianikoi pelikophoroi. They are not bad, they are just not cost effective.

[athanaric]

*BUMP*

https://europabarbarorum.com/i/units/pontos/pon_kuarothoroi.gif

I hold these guys in high esteem. My Pontos campaign taught me this, alas - Put them on the flank of a phalanx and they'll be extremely valuable. They hardly die alas! Plus they are quite cheap and numerous for elite infantry, which is what the free exp and weapon upgrades turn them into once Ankyra gets a decent infrastructure.


Yes, but OTOH they aren't ideal on walls because they insist on using their spears up there. Not so very long ago I had a siege battle as Makedonia against the Getai, where I put these men up against a unit of Agema Orditon - only to experience a retarded spear-"duel" on the wall. (The Ordes won, btw., being an elite unit while the Kuarothoroi are just heavy infantry, which means I had to remove the Ordes manually with some falxmen or axemen).




In fact I favour them over the Galatian Wild Men. The East is full of archers and missile troops which can massacre them, but the Kuarothoroi are extremely well armoured, have a better shield and thus are much stronger under missile fire.

The shield value of Tindanotae and Kuarothoroi is the same (4), however the armour stats are different enough (12 vs. 5). I, too, slightly favour the Kuarothoroi because they are more versatile (IMO) and because of their being less exhibitionist.


Edit:

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/hayasdan/hay_kardaka.gif

A break from my philhellenic traditions.

No where near as solid as true hoplitai, they have swords. They can hold anything short of a catank charge, and can go toe to toe against the barbaroi in a chop-fest thanks to their large aspis. While that's happening, MY catanks can wheel around and literally mow them barbaroi from behind.

I second that. I didn't expect too much of these guys, however they proved quite capable against both cavalry and infantry and are a very valuable asset for any Pahlava player. The downside is though that they are only available at a lvl 4 MIC.

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

I don't know why, but in my experience, Pontic heavy spearmen haven't been too effective. A unit of legionnarries can beat them, as can agrianikoi pelikophoroi. They are not bad, they are just not cost effective.

...You mean the Kuarothoroi? That's weird because they have have stats up in the 28's for Defense (weapon and exp upgrades) and 12-14 for sword attack (ditto).

:inquisitive:


Yes, but OTOH they aren't ideal on walls because they insist on using their spears up there. Not so very long ago I had a siege battle as Makedonia against the Getai, where I put these men up against a unit of Agema Orditon - only to experience a retarded spear-"duel" on the wall. (The Ordes won, btw., being an elite unit while the Kuarothoroi are just heavy infantry, which means I had to remove the Ordes manually with some falxmen or axemen).


I only had a single wall battle with them in my Pontos campaign and I have to say... I think differently. Of course the unit is not at all suited vs. a heavily armoured elites because it has no ap weapons, but it is still an effective "assault troop". I took many cities while having remarkably low casualties for them, and they certainly excel enough vs. enemy line troops... As well as unarmored troops like Wild Men due to their high attack and lethality. They have all the gear, BTW: heavy armour, high skill, big shield plus a couple more skill defense skill and attack. 1 vs. 1, I would expect them to win against Peltastai Makedonikoi.

By the way, I have no problems with the "spear vs. sword" switch.

All in all their stats and their cost mean they are ironically the best Pontic "elite" overall. Units like the Traikioi Rhomphaiaroi or the TAB might outclass them in the end, but they cost like 2x the upkeep of a single Kuarothoroi?

...I used to think all these elites were fine and all until I started recruiting and paying for them. Then I knew the strength of factions such as the Romani lies in highly effective line troops, which also applies for the Kuarothoroi. I can have twice as many of them as Chalkaspides or Wild Men, so numbers certainly become an advantage... and... since the phalanx is there to pin the enemy, they attacking from the rear also improves their odds. Which also leads to the fact that due to the lack of good heavy cavalry save for the generals, Kuarothroi make for a nice flank troop.

Not that I despise Galatian wild men and other elites. Wild Men fare quite better when the enemy has weaker missile troops or to hit an elite phalanx from the rear but they don't play nearly as large a role in my armies as Kuarothoroi.

[Ibrahim]

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/baktria/bak_kavakaza_kof.gif

Highly efficient elephant killers, and, for their cost, excellent at skirmishing. Due to their unit size, they literally shower enemy lines with javelins. As a bonus, these guys can be recruited a stone's throw away from the Indian regions, where you'll be facing eleutheroi stacks with elephants.

amen.

they saved my rear in the historical battle-the one between seleukos and antigonos. great elephant killings were indeed made by them.:2thumbsup:

[Cyclops]

In my current Pontos campaign I RP'd my (type IV) Galatian allies to attack my Epirote allies and they (I) took Tylis. 4 heavy spears, 4 shortswords, some slings, a wild man and a couple of cav, plus a Vollorix. They were in it on their own, the Pontic Satrap in Byzantion refused to reinforce (so I RP'd) but the Epirotes took their lumps, wrote the loss off and went for peace ASAP.

Its a killer force, those heavy spears are meaty bastards, but with all the mad charging the Wild Men are getting thin on the ground (yeah I know they are best used to flank but you tell them that). All that armour makes a huge difference strategically: if this was an early-game western Celtic force my line would be bled out after 2-3 battles.

[Lupu]

Surprisingly bad unit:
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/baktria/baktria_indian_elephant_armored.gif
These elephants are the single most expensive land unit in the game except for artillery. So they should absolutely mash anything, no matter what with that price, shouldn't they? Funny that all you need to murder a unit of them is to make a single charge with an even halved unit of low-level(relatively) cataphracts=the most expensive land unit in the game made useless.

[athanaric]

These elephants are the single most expensive land unit in the game except for artillery. So they should absolutely mash anything, no matter what with that price, shouldn't they? Funny that all you need to murder a unit of them is to make a single charge with an even halved unit of low-level(relatively) cataphracts=the most expensive land unit in the game made useless.

Yes, but OTOH, pretty much anything dies from a properly executed cataphract charge. That's what the cataphracts are for, after all. In a melee engagement between the two, the elephants win. And if the elephants charge the horsemen, the elephants win decidedly. It is more a matter of who charges who.

Elephants, just as chariots, are very tricky to use. But for a skilled player, they are worth every shilling you spend on them.

[Kevin]

https://img3.imageshack.us/img3/7788/swebozspeutagardaz.gif (https://img3.imageshack.us/i/swebozspeutagardaz.gif/)

At first, they sound good; a barbaric faction suddenly gets a phalanx-like unit. However, I find these units to be REALLY BAD. There's only 80 of them in a unit (on large), they get easily surrounded, they spread out if not in guard mode, and when in guard mode, they suck.

[Lupu]

Yes, but OTOH, pretty much anything dies from a properly executed cataphract charge. That's what the cataphracts are for, after all. In a melee engagement between the two, the elephants win. And if the elephants charge the horsemen, the elephants win decidedly. It is more a matter of who charges who.

Elephants, just as chariots, are very tricky to use. But for a skilled player, they are worth every shilling you spend on them.
It's different if controlled by the player, the eles would simply charge and run through, killing a lot of catas, but used by the AI, it's a suicide unit. Also, they don't win against katas in mellee either, one of them charged my saka early bodyguard cavalry in loose formation, it didn't take too many casualties, and after half a minute of fighting, the eles were away, routing, running insane outside the city walls and wrecking the opposing baktrian army.:skull: Pretty lame, also I think the kataphracts have too high defense to get easily killed by an ele charge, they will suffer a few losses, and then surround the eles, murdering them.

[DaciaJC]

https://img3.imageshack.us/img3/7788/swebozspeutagardaz.gif (https://img3.imageshack.us/i/swebozspeutagardaz.gif/)

At first, they sound good; a barbaric faction suddenly gets a phalanx-like unit. However, I find these units to be REALLY BAD. There's only 80 of them in a unit (on large), they get easily surrounded, they spread out if not in guard mode, and when in guard mode, they suck.

There have been suggestions to make that unit a proper phalanx in the fashion of the Makedonians. Send a PM to Aemilius Paulus if you want to know how.

[athanaric]

https://img3.imageshack.us/img3/7788/swebozspeutagardaz.gif (https://img3.imageshack.us/i/swebozspeutagardaz.gif/)

At first, they sound good; a barbaric faction suddenly gets a phalanx-like unit. However, I find these units to be REALLY BAD. There's only 80 of them in a unit (on large), they get easily surrounded, they spread out if not in guard mode, and when in guard mode, they suck.

Allow me to disagree on this one - being a somewhat experienced Swêboz player, I think they are actually excellent. As with all units in EB, it requires some time and practice to be able to use their full potential.

- They have excellent morale, better than any non-elite pikemen (yes, even better than Hysteroi Pezhetairoi and Chalkaspides). Morale wise, they are equal to elite Thracians and Elite African Pikemen.
- They are actually fearsome cavalry killers.
- They are, apart from the Elite Dacian Phalanx, the best line holders of any barbarian faction.
- They have the strongest charge of all pikemen.
- Their spear has an increased lethality value (0.15 instead of 0.13) which makes them actually quite decent against infantry.

Admittedly, the relatively small unit size and lack of a "special formation" as well as the missing secondary swords (which was, IIRC, dropped because of gameplay issues - they switched too often) are major drawbacks. However, these guys are still well worth the money you spend on them. Besides looking very cool.

[A Very Super Market]

You're aren't using elephants correctly. They require far more micro-management than most units, much like chariots. Said micro-management tends to consist mainly of rapidly spamming way-points and praying they don't bump into each other.

Also, since elephants can't toss cavalry into the air, they must rely on goring/trampling them or leave it to the men on top of them. So it makes cataphracts prickly business.

[Lupu]

You're aren't using elephants correctly. They require far more micro-management than most units, much like chariots. Said micro-management tends to consist mainly of rapidly spamming way-points and praying they don't bump into each other.

Also, since elephants can't toss cavalry into the air, they must rely on goring/trampling them or leave it to the men on top of them. So it makes cataphracts prickly business.
Can't say I don't know how to use elephants, it's more how the AI knows to use them, Baktria is wasting insane sums of money in my campaign on something that a depleted units of my katas kill in a charge. In my carthage campaign, I conquered half of italy with the help of the eles you get at the start, they always got the most kills, and that are the ones so many call useless.
I guess the armored elephants are an OK unit, but for 23000 mnai, you can buy 6 full Saka bodyguard cavalry, and don't let me start on the upkeep one unit costs.

[Andronikos]

Elephants aren't about cost effectivity, they are about prestige. A proper eastern emperor should have them to show off.

[antisocialmunky]

That sit behind the battleline until everyone is tried and then goto town.

[Cyclops]

Elephants aren't about cost effectivity, they are about prestige. A proper eastern emperor should have them to show off.

Nailed it. Just not cost effective but I have to have one.

Huge pwnage when you run your ele's down a line of elite AS pikes, even if 1 unti costs as much as an entire (quite servicable) second line army.

Maybe someone should do a "For the price of an armoured ele you could have built..." thread?

[Apázlinemjó]

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/eleutheroi/gaul/rebel_massiloi_hoplitai.gif

Surprisingly bad, I tried to use them as line-infantry, then as flankers, but they always lose a lot of men and rout. Last time when I used these guys a Lugoae with 1 chevron routed them. So why are they so weak? Or do I use them in a wrong way?

[satalexton]

did u use guard mode and just have them stand there?

[Apázlinemjó]

Yeah.

[Lupu]

That's not cool for the AI, also, how is it realistic that a few elephants with added armor cost so much?:wall: Isn't this the top realism mod for RTW?

[Mediolanicus]

That's not cool for the AI, also, how is it realistic that a few elephants with added armor cost so much?:wall: Isn't this the top realism mod for RTW?

How much, do you think, does it cost to train an elephants, feed and house him while training and afterwards, feed and groom him on campaign. A few of those beast need tons of food and tens or poeple to look after them. Your logistics cost for a huge army would double just by adding 10 elephants.

[Raygereio]

@Apázlinemjó; yeah, guard mode can be very helpfull by allowing your units to 'conserve' energy while the enemy is wearing themselves out before your lines. But remember that in guard mode they do not attack themselves, you need to give your unit an order before they actually do anything, otherwise they just stand there and die; a somewhat unfortunate side-effect...

Perhaps they do suffer a bit from having their lethal swords as primary weapons and having the less-lethal spears as secondary (in other words; in prolonged melee, they will switch to the spears).
I tend to use them to either guard my flanks against cavalry or keep them in reserve and throw them at whatever needs some extra pressure. I find them more then decent units in this role.

@Lupu; for starters an adult elephant eat somewhere around 150-250 kg worth of food per day. Then there are all the caretakers of the beasts. And check out those guys riding the elephant, they need payment and food too.

[antisocialmunky]

@Apázlinemjó; yeah, guard mode can be very helpfull by allowing your units to 'conserve' energy while the enemy is wearing themselves out before your lines. But remember that in guard mode they do not attack themselves, you need to give your unit an order before they actually do anything, otherwise they just stand there and die; a somewhat unfortunate side-effect...


They still inflict casualties jsut at a reduced rate.

[Lupu]

Wow, that's an insane ammount of food:dizzy2: I undrstand the price of eles now. But that doesn't explain the armoured ones.
Prices:
Elephantes Indikoi(Indian eles):
Recruitment: 13000
Upkeep: 3250

Elephantes Kataphraktoi Indikoi(Armoured indian eles):
Recruitment: 23000
Upkeep:5750

That addition of price for extra armour seems extreme.

[Cyclops]

As Pontos I'm finally seeing the worth of chariots and Theurophoroi, two units I avoided before.


...

That addition of price for extra armour seems extreme.

Its all the brasso they use keeping the armour shiny...:shame:

I imagine the armoured ones were the really strong elephants with even bigger appetites than usual.

The manufacture and upkeep of armour must have been a huge cost. Those elephant coats were't exactly pret-a-porter. Add in extra transport costs for the armour as well: I don't think any heavily armoured unit just got up in the morning and put on their full panoply for a day's march. Any souirces on how armoured troops travelled that anyone knows?

On a side note, its a shame the engine can't be stretched to feature un-armoured versions of troops for when you ambush/surprise attack them. IIRC there's a bit in Polybius where Scipio's leuitenant L-something (Laelius?) night-attacks Syphax's camp and Syphax has to run away naked: tons of his guys get cut down in their PJ's.

Anyhoo, I think the Elephants of every variety are worth their salt. I fought a hard (strict stack HR) Carthi campaign up Italy with a seperate Punic and local flavoured armies: wherever the eles went, Nike followed.

[DaciaJC]

On a side note, its a shame the engine can't be stretched to feature un-armoured versions of troops for when you ambush/surprise attack them. IIRC there's a bit in Polybius where Scipio's leuitenant L-something (Laelius?) night-attacks Syphax's camp and Syphax has to run away naked: tons of his guys get cut down in their PJ's.



The engine would first have to allow for surprise attacks in the first place: in RTW, all ambushes occur when one of the two opposing armies moves. There are no night-attacks on encampments, say.

[Apázlinemjó]

@Apázlinemjó; yeah, guard mode can be very helpfull by allowing your units to 'conserve' energy while the enemy is wearing themselves out before your lines. But remember that in guard mode they do not attack themselves, you need to give your unit an order before they actually do anything, otherwise they just stand there and die; a somewhat unfortunate side-effect...

Perhaps they do suffer a bit from having their lethal swords as primary weapons and having the less-lethal spears as secondary (in other words; in prolonged melee, they will switch to the spears).
I tend to use them to either guard my flanks against cavalry or keep them in reserve and throw them at whatever needs some extra pressure. I find them more then decent units in this role.

Since I had a little time I tested them in Custom game against Botroas. At the first try the Massilians were in guard mode and lost the battle. At the second, without guard mode, they won narrowly with 7 survivors. Then I changed the formation to loose and I was wow'ed, the Massilians killed around 80 from the Botroas while lost only 10 men. Tried it out with loose again and the same results. So I want to change my statement, they aren't bad, moreover, quite decent sword heavy infantry. However, against cavalry they tend to shift-shift between swords and spears which isn't that good when you are too busy to watch them.

[chenkai11]

I think the loose formation in RTW is bugged. IMO, with it sometimes falsely represent the ability of an unit. Like for example, I can hold a heavy cavalry charge with peltast in guard mode and loose formation. In real life, I don't think so.

[Raygereio]

They still inflict casualties jsut at a reduced rate.
Hrm, not if your units are in guard mode and you haven't given them an attack order. Then they just stand there and barely defend themselves if they are attacked.
Mind you, I haven't played on RomeTW.exe for a long time, so that could be something specific to alex.exe.


I think the loose formation in RTW is bugged.
That has more to do with the fact that the charge of cavalry is spent as soon as a single unit at the front row of the cavalry formation hits an enemy soldier. It doesn't matter if only one horse in the cavalry unit actually hits someone, the charge is gone.
I always find it somewhat funnny to see how the AI usually switches it's skirmisher units from loose to dense formation when they are about to be charged by my cavalry and thus ensures more casualties on his side.

You can also start cheesing the gameplay mechanics this way and 'catch' a cavalry charge by manouvering a unit so that a single soldier of that unit at the edge of the cavalry's path and is hit by a horse. The entire cavalry unit stops and you only loose a single solder to the charge (which is the most deadly effect of pretty much most cavalry).

[Dewirix]

Maybe someone should do a "For the price of an armoured ele you could have built..." thread?

Elephants are definitely prestige units, right up there with the 9000 upkeep poliremes.

Taking up Cyclops' challenge, for 5750 mnai you could support (prices approximate):

1 x Chaeonion Agema @ ~ 1000
1 x Pezhetairoi @ ~ 550
4 x Phalangitai Deuteroi @ ~ 1600
1 x Prodromoi @ ~ 600
1 x Agrianikoi Pelekephoroi @ ~ 500
2 x Thureophoroi @ ~ 1000
1 x Akontistai @ ~ 200
1 x FM general @ ~ 200

Total Cost: 5650 mnai/turn

Which is the core of my Epeirote royal army. All that's missing are the Toxotai Kretikoi, the Hypaspistai, the Pheraspides and, well, the Elephantes Indikoi - the most expensive 24 archers I'll ever field.

On the plus side, the fear effect is useful in encouraging elites to rout and in the right circumstances the charge is devastating.

[Kevin]

https://img6.imageshack.us/img6/7716/africaninfantrymauresin.jpg (https://img6.imageshack.us/i/africaninfantrymauresin.jpg/)

These guys were quite a suprise in my Romani campaign. I was suprised at first when they were defeating my Camillian Principes. Then, I checked their stats and wow. .225 lethality, fast, and are great skirmishers. Too bad they can only be recruited in North-easter Africa :laugh4:

EDIT: By the way, how do guys put up unit pictures without imageshack?

[DaciaJC]

Find the desired unit picture here (https://www.europabarbarorum.com/factions.html) (each faction has a units page), right-click on the image and click "Copy Image Location". Press this button https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/images/rtw/editor/insertimage.gif and paste the unit-picture location.

Like so:

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/getai/getai_drapanai.gif

I didn't say a word, AP, nary a word... :clown:

[Flavius_Belisarius]

Illyrioi Hippeis

They are very cheap and because of their axes they can siginifcantly damage well armored cavalry.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/epeiros/epi_illyrioihippeis.gif

[Kevin]

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/koinon-hellenon/kh_spartiates.gif

These guys are a major dissapointment. A life time of training and when facing a group of Akondistai at the town center, they win..but ONE dies?? really? "The world's greatest soldiers" lose one to a bunch of peasants during melee?:shame::wall::no:

[A Very Super Market]

There are so many peasants! You're attacking! It's a town battle!

[Kevin]

They were the only units left and i decided that since my spartans weren't as tired, why not send them. They actually lost a guy :no:

[A Very Super Market]

You have unreasonably high expectations. Taking one casualty fighting a horde of Akontistai sounds like an achievement to me. Compare it to Thermopylae, where they had even more armour and still took casualties to the lightly armed Persians.

[Kevin]

I wouldn't say a unit of akondistai (and like 3 hoplitai hoplois) is a horde :inquisitive: Plus, they're poor men using knives. Same with some of the Macedonian bodyguards. I tell them to charge a unit of hoplitai hoploi and they lose two units in the charge

I was like
ಠ_ಠ

[-Praetor-]

Plus, they're poor men using knives.

Well, the following is a depiction of a french cuirassier, and a "poor man using a knife".

http://latejedora.net/dmac/malasana_y_su_hija.jpg

Guess who's getting owned there. :grin:

[A Very Super Market]

So you're disappointed that you took one casualty while fighting more than 3 times as many men as you? I don't quite follow. People die in wars, all the time. A Spartan can get killed by Haploi as a knight by men-at-arms, or a marine by insurgents. Do you expect immortality as a pre-requisite for your army?

[Flavius_Belisarius]

I think too many guys have watched 300 and have taken it serious. -.-

[Apázlinemjó]

"Professional" and "elite" are not the synonymes of "immortal".

[chenkai11]

Well, the following is a depiction of a french cuirassier, and a "poor man using a knife".

http://latejedora.net/dmac/malasana_y_su_hija.jpg

Guess who's getting owned there. :grin:

Damn. If I was a soldier, I don't want to die in that way. :shame: It look so stupid. :laugh4:

[-Praetor-]

The "poor man using a knife" is avenging his daughter lying on the ground.

People defending their clan and their homes should be taken quite seriously, even if they are as lightly armed as an arkontistai.

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

Well the daughter looks hot anyway. Pity she's dead.

[Kevin]

First off, 300 was an awesome movie :laugh4:
The French Curassier (or however it's spelled) probably didn't have the same training as the Spartans or use the same formation. I mean, these Spartans trained since childhood and fought in such a formation, with those giant shields.. How can one have died from tired peasants using a small knife when he is wielding a 8 foot spear, a giant aspis, and have his friends by his side.

Oh well, it's just a game :juggle2:

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

The 8 foot spear is a dead weight in close combat, the armour only covers the torso while exposing the limbs (exactly like the Cuirassier), plus the Cuirassier is a very well trained man. By that analogy we can also see that Knights, who were much better armoured than Spartans, also died knifed in close combat - the peasant here is in fact going for the gap in the defense, a clever and much practiced maneuver against even heavily armoured and skilled fighters. Not entirely impossible, also considering the circumstances that led the man to be immobilized first, which are not available to us but from our experience in combat seem very plausible. Elite fighters also have their weaknesses.

[athanaric]

First off, 300 was an awesome movie :laugh4:

From a technical aspect and in regard to story-telling, yes. Otherwise it was crap.

You have a point with the Spartan staying in formation. Still, your Spartan was fighting in a city, which not only confuses the RTW engine, but provides circumstances and conditions different from fighting in the open - which is what spearmen excel at - whereas in a city, chances are that a professional warrior can be killed with un-professional means quite easily sometimes. See what happened to Pyrrhos.

[Kevin]

From a technical aspect and in regard to story-telling, yes. Otherwise it was crap.

Don't think of 300 has a movie trying to be historical...because movies like that (for example: Alexander) are boring as hell. Instead, think of it as how a greek would retell the story, full of action and bravery. Afterall, the movie is supposed to the survivor inspiring the troops, not boring the shit out of them.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cb/Jacques-Louis_David_004_Thermopylae.jpg/800px-Jacques-Louis_David_004_Thermopylae.jpg
Except the Spartans would have been naked :dizzy2:

I still think it's disappointing for a "Fresh" unit of Spartans to even lose one to a "Winded" Unit of Akontisdai.

[Andronikos]

If you are referring to RL, those peasants wouldn't be just guys with knives, they would use everything to defend themselves, rock throwing included.

I firstly believed that your expectations about Spartans and Makedonian bodyguards are just joke.

[ARCHIPPOS]

[I]I wouldn't say a unit of akondistai (and like 3 hoplitai hoplois) is a horde :inquisitive: Plus, they're poor men using knives. Same with some of the Macedonian bodyguards. I tell them to charge a unit of hoplitai hoploi and they lose two units in the charge
[/SIZE]

... the other day i took 3 FM's out of Baktra to deal with an annoying 3 unit stack of bandit archer spearmen- (they also had a Daha general but i managed to kill him with my super-assassin!!! ) so i charge with my valiant somatophylakes-a thick block of 3 X 13 mounted bodyguards galloping with their spears lowered and all and WHAM!!! two seconds after impact the youngest of the FM dies...

in my oppinion some elite casualties even against lowly troops add depth,complexity and realism to the game...
carrying around an indestructable "Rambo" force can get a bit... dull shall we say ??? a few deaths here and there spice things up and keep you on the edge of your seat :yes:

[Ca Putt]

even if Spartans are supposed to outlast that situation without a scratch(which is not a fact always count in causalties) one casualty can realy be regarded as bad luck. loosing one unit to a bunch of guys with knives is not someting that shout for "overrated!!!!!". statistics statistics statistics the pure possibility of all your spartans dieing to a single arkontistai, the chance is very slim tho^^

on 300: lets not overstress this there were more than 300 discussions about this topic, just see it as a spartan themed action movie with a lot of blood and gore.It's not like it's based on the real event It's based on a comic book.

[A Very Super Market]

Is he trolling? I think he must be trolling at least a bit. No matter, I'm sure someone can come up with a legitimate complaint about Spartans.

https://europabarbarorum.com/i/units/koinon-hellenon/kh_spartiates.gif

Like the fact that they are more expensive and more limited in recruitment than Epilektoi. Arguably, they are a bit of a waste in a post-Koinon army, as history has proven it to be unwise to have your best soldiers be from a rowdy, hard-to-please clique.

[Kevin]

Trolling? :inquisitive:

[mountaingoat]

http://www.decimation.com/markw/images/rand1/caution_this_is_sparta.jpg

[DaciaJC]

Yew must be new to t3h internetz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29).

[antisocialmunky]

Well, the following is a depiction of a french cuirassier, and a "poor man using a knife".

http://latejedora.net/dmac/malasana_y_su_hija.jpg

Guess who's getting owned there. :grin:

It looks like the peasant is trying to kiss the guy on the horse and the guy on the horse doesn't seem fond of that idea.

[Ludens]

Is he trolling? I think he must be trolling at least a bit.

So complaining that your highly-trained, expensively-equipped elite soldier is beaten by a guy with a butterknife is trolling?

Personally, when fighting brigands with a family member, I always imagine that my boys would be embarrassed about the one hetairoi that manages to get pulled out of the saddle when fighting spendonetai. That's not the way a member of the Royal Guard is supposed to die.

Still, doesn't make the unit underwhelming: it happens to all elite units.

[the man with no name]

So complaining that your highly-trained, expensively-equipped elite soldier is beaten by a guy with a butterknife is trolling?

Personally, when fighting brigands with a family member, I always imagine that my boys would be embarrassed about the one hetairoi that manages to get pulled out of the saddle when fighting spendonetai. That's not the way a member of the Royal Guard is supposed to die.

Still, doesn't make the unit underwhelming: it happens to all elite units.

Truth. Sux when it happens 2

[m0r1d1n]

No matter, I'm sure someone can come up with a legitimate complaint about Spartans.

https://europabarbarorum.com/i/units/koinon-hellenon/kh_spartiates.gif

Like the fact that they are more expensive and more limited in recruitment than Epilektoi. .

true dat...plus they are highly cost ineffective in MP battles, even a barb faction can bring an undoubtedly absolute super killer unit with the same cost :furious3:..i only bring one of these guys for role playing n all...

[Flavius_Belisarius]

Not only the spartans are crap, it concerns almost every elite unit which fights in hoplite style. Indo Nobel Hoplites, Hypaspisty, etc.

And this isn't only in this mod. Played mods like RTR and there was also the same problem - without their phalanx ability from Rome Vanilla hoplites are crap - excepted you put them in guard mod which isn't a problem in sp ...

Illyrioi Thureophoroi (Illyrian spearmen)

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/epeiros/epi_illyrian_thureophoroi.gif
As fan of epeiros i tested this unit too. This lightly armored Thureophoroi are able to defeat many heavily armored infantery like classical hoplites. They are quite decent and im surprised because their armor is with 5 really crappy.

[mountaingoat]

yeah , i have used them to hold off hordes of celts and roman.

[Apázlinemjó]

true dat...plus they are highly cost ineffective in MP battles, even a barb faction can bring an undoubtedly absolute super killer unit with the same cost :furious3:..i only bring one of these guys for role playing n all...

They are a prestige unit.

[alexanderthegreater]

Not only the spartans are crap, it concerns almost every elite unit which fights in hoplite style. Indo Nobel Hoplites, Hypaspisty, etc.


What about these guys:

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/baktria/bak_baktrioi_agema.gif

They fight in hoplite style but have big choppa's secondary.
I found them surprisingly good. Fighting the Saka Rauka I attacked a unit of their foot archers but wasnt paying attention, so got charged by saka armoured nobles in the back. (Outwitted by AI XD) I lost halve my units in the charge (I play at huge, but they had already been mauled previously, so it went from 80 to 40)
I thought they were lost then. But being elites they refused to rout, chopped into the foot archers at their front so brutally that they routed, then switched to their spears and trolled the heavy cavalry at their backs. 30 of them were left and i continued to use them throughout the battle, stacking up 350 killzzzz.

[athanaric]

Personally, I think hoplites are quite good. Especially the Spartan guys who have a unique combination of heavy armour and very good stamina. It's a unit that is almost impervious to missiles from the front, kills cavalry, and can run around for a long time, unlike other armoured guys.

[WinsingtonIII]

Personally, I think hoplites are quite good. Especially the Spartan guys who have a unique combination of heavy armour and very good stamina. It's a unit that is almost impervious to missiles from the front, kills cavalry, and can run around for a long time, unlike other armoured guys.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that hoplites are in many cases better than phalanxes. They certainly don't have the frontal stopping power of phalanxes, but in guard mode they will definitely hold units from the front for a very long time. Plus, they are far more maneuverable than phalanxes, and thus can respond to flanking very quickly. Hoplitai Haploi have been mentioned many times in this thread as a surprisingly good unit, and they certainly are. They can hold many better enemies from the front, and their lack of armor is actual helpful in some ways, as it makes them incredibly fast for a unit of spearmen. In my Epeiros campaign these guys run around the map so fast it's astounding.

[ziegenpeter]

I agree. I mean against Phalanx helps only Phalanx but when it vcomes to Phalanx or Hoplitai vs. something else then Phalanx, I definetly prefer Hoplitai because they are more flexible and maneuverable!

[seienchin]

In Eb Hoplites are way more powerfull than phalangitai, if they would have the same numbers. Imagine a 242 unit of greek bodyguards, they would kill everything. :skull::skull::skull:

[Rahwana]

Surprisingly BAD
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/ptolemaioi/ptol_basilikon_agema.gif

No, I not means I was playing with them... but when I sent my pontos army to eat the Ptolemaioi, they start one stack carrying several of them to attack my FM that only lead halfstack of Galatian Warriors and some missile troops. At first I fear that they are a really tough guy to take (like Hypaspistai or Peltastai Makedonikoi), but after my Kluddolon (yes Galatikoi Kluddolon, the bare chested shortswordsmen!) made some short work with them (they are just getting killed very quickly compared to their Machimoi and Pezhetairoi comrades... I was quite dissapointed, how could supposedly elite units getting killed so easily and flee when only facing some bare-chested shortswordsmen? (notice: I don't carry any Tindanotae, just plain Kluddolon and Galatikoi Kuraothoroi as my line army)

[antisocialmunky]

They are good infantry to leave in guard mode for use as assault infantry because of their AP swords. You really don't want them to get into a melee with half naked peasants. They are also quite good as reserve units.

[-42-]

Saba's unit roster is actually better than one would think, simply because they never break, giving you enough time to use your bodyguards to break a phalanx. Red Sea light infantry is also good, cheap, and the AP axes make them nice shock troops for breaking low end ptolie units. Arabian light cavalry is also surisingly nice, due to the decent charge. They are great for routing the Native spears that ore thrown at me in hordes.

On a similar note, Ethiopian Swords are pretty poor troops for the price.

[vartan]

On a similar note, Ethiopian Swords are pretty poor troops for the price.

There is much pricing I do not agree with in EB, but heck, what do I know about pricing?

What do I have in mind at the moment? Take for instance, Armenian Medium Infantry. Have you seen the price on that thing? Georgian Medium Infantry is cheaper...Romans EVEN cheaper. I understand it, but almost 1900 mnai? Come on! Why?

[-42-]

They base it on historical accuracy, Romans are cheap to simulate Rome's ability to recruit massive amounts of troops. Ethiopians are decent for what they are, a stopgap until you can get the powerhouse troops up north (Galatians) but they are pricier than Red Sea Hoplites and offer little benefit, especially once you have units with chevrons gained by slaughtering podromoi.

[WinsingtonIII]

Saba's unit roster is actually better than one would think, simply because they never break, giving you enough time to use your bodyguards to break a phalanx. Red Sea light infantry is also good, cheap, and the AP axes make them nice shock troops for breaking low end ptolie units. Arabian light cavalry is also surisingly nice, due to the decent charge. They are great for routing the Native spears that ore thrown at me in hordes.

On a similar note, Ethiopian Swords are pretty poor troops for the price.

I agree, Sabaeans have amazing morale, and it really is their saving grace.

Ethiopian Swordsmen are terrible. They are one of my least favorite units in EB simply because they look so cool and you expect them to be at least decent, but they inevitably take ridiculous casualties and then rout off the field, even when you use them in the correct role of medium swordsmen. I've seen them get killed off and routed by Ethiopian Light Spearmen, which are meant to be a weaker unit, and the spears were not in guard mode, nor were they flanking the swords.

[Fluvius Camillus]

There is much pricing I do not agree with in EB, but heck, what do I know about pricing?

What do I have in mind at the moment? Take for instance, Armenian Medium Infantry. Have you seen the price on that thing? Georgian Medium Infantry is cheaper...Romans EVEN cheaper. I understand it, but almost 1900 mnai? Come on! Why?

Scythian Riders are stronger than Steppe Riders and Scythians are also cheaper~D

On what basis is the recruitment cost calculated, first I thougth stats but that is wrong I see?


What about these guys:

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/baktria/bak_baktrioi_agema.gif

They fight in hoplite style but have big choppa's secondary.
I found them surprisingly good. Fighting the Saka Rauka I attacked a unit of their foot archers but wasnt paying attention, so got charged by saka armoured nobles in the back. (Outwitted by AI XD) I lost halve my units in the charge (I play at huge, but they had already been mauled previously, so it went from 80 to 40)
I thought they were lost then. But being elites they refused to rout, chopped into the foot archers at their front so brutally that they routed, then switched to their spears and trolled the heavy cavalry at their backs. 30 of them were left and i continued to use them throughout the battle, stacking up 350 killzzzz.

Same goes for their Indo Greek Noble brethren (slightly weaker), I had a depleted group of them kill around 200 Baltic light Spearmen (they were with 16) and at the end there were 5 left, not a single thougth of routing!

~Fluvius

[athanaric]

Scythian Riders are stronger than Steppe Riders and Scythians are also cheaper~D

I've noticed this too. It's the same with the cataphract HAs, where the Parthian guys are actually a (tiny) bit better than the Armenian ones, and yet cost less. Though in that case, I suspect, the availability of suitable horses etc. has been calculated by the team.

[Ludens]

On what basis is the recruitment cost calculated, first I thougth stats but that is wrong I see?

Obviously, we don't know exactly how much a unit would have costed. I guess it is based on equipment, social status and the military system. For example, Romans get a discount on heavy infantry, but their cavalry is expensive. For Equestrian nations the opposite applies.

[-42-]

Surprisingly bad: Loricati Scutari: yesterday one unit of these lost by one unit of lousitanian light infantry :no:

I think i wont train them anymore...

Don't use them against Iberians, use Caetratii, Milites and some Light/Med cav. Loricati Scutarii are not suited to taking on the lighter, more mobile Iberians. The Loricati are murder against Romans, hammer and anvil with Iberian heavy cav and you will never lose to Rome (even when they start hurling stacks Pedite Extrordinarii and Triarii). They also handily kill Hoplites in droves.

THis brings me to my next suprisingly good unit. Caetratii are great light infantry (if way too pricy, ah well, Carthage has the cash) and they are probably the best flanking infantry for their avaliability. The rediculous amount of Soliform helps too. Able to handily kill Hastati and Principes if used correctly.

[alexanderthegreater]

Catraeti are great offensive infantry yes, but mine always take alot of casualties because theyre so vulnerable to missiles (not handy in the javelin heavy west) and completely suck against cavalry.

[satalexton]

you're meant to hide them amongst trees or in tall grass (Fire@will OFF), spring out of seemingly nowhere, throw them AP javalins, then cut the disorientated foe into hamburger patties.

[alexanderthegreater]

its difficult to hide them if you play on huge-

on another note, is there any difference between baktrian royal guard and indo-greek noble hoplites?

[anubis88]

its difficult to hide them if you play on huge-

on another note, is there any difference between baktrian royal guard and indo-greek noble hoplites?

The indo-greeks have + 1 attack with both spear and sword

[athanaric]

The indo-greeks have + 1 attack with both spear and sword

That's because the Indo-Greek Nobles are a Saka reform unit (IIRC), and thus can't have their attack upgraded by a blacksmith.

[WinsingtonIII]

That's because the Indo-Greek Nobles are a Saka reform unit (IIRC), and thus can't have their attack upgraded by a blacksmith.

Baktria gets them too (without any reform), so I don't think that's the explanation. I guess they just were considered to be slightly "better."

EDIT: According the online unit list, the Indo-Greek Nobles and the Baktrian Royal Guard have the exact same stats, 28 Defense, 16 morale, 12 sword attack and 17 spear attack. Is this different in game?

[Fluvius Camillus]

its difficult to hide them if you play on huge-

on another note, is there any difference between baktrian royal guard and indo-greek noble hoplites?

They are both recruitable by Baktria, Bakrion Agema are lvl 5 factionals around Baktria and if you go to the Indus valley the Indo Greek nobles are lvl 5 factionals there.

Indo Greeks are two units less, because they have no unit commander and standard bearer.

Their stats are (almost) identical.

~Fluvius

[-42-]

Hypaspistai are expensive and not very useful, they don't die much, but they don't kill as much as I thought they would.

Mauri infantry are suprising, they kill very efficiently.

[king of thracia]

Hypaspistai are expensive and not very useful, they don't die much, but they don't kill as much as I thought they would.

Indeed, Hypaspistai and Galatikoi Kuarothoroi do not perform as expected. Thorakitai are superior in tests against a variety of opponents. I've read that alt+clicking constantly will resolve this. Unfortunately this is not very practical and we are limited by the engine.

[satalexton]

I find them to be pretty gd in doing wt they do best: A living wall. They do that better than hoplitai AND they can do some chopping if need be.

[Yarema]

the most surprisingly bad units are roman legionnaries (especially the marian ones)...
In reality they were ABSOLUTELY THE BEST INFANTRY IN THE WORLD, while in the game they are inferior to elite hoplites, thorakitai, phalanxes all of elite barbarian inf units.

[moonburn]

the most surprisingly bad units are roman legionnaries (especially the marian ones)...
In reality they were ABSOLUTELY THE BEST INFANTRY IN THE WORLD, while in the game they are inferior to elite hoplites, thorakitai, phalanxes all of elite barbarian inf units.

they where better then any other regular unit that can somewhat be agreed uppon but they where still just regular soldiers being payed a salarium and not trully nobles or particulary devoted soldiers

if you want to make them elite you either require evocatas wich where the old veterans being reasembled or you have to get them alot of experience before they can be considered equals of nobles/elite units

as for phalanxs there´s an american expression that i believe i must use now if you can´t defeat phalanxs with legionaires "YOU´RE DOING IT WRONG" :laugh4:

[satalexton]

Roman legions are 'lings. Individual 'lings may be weak, but the idea is that u can have a seemingly endless rushes of them. What happened when a Romaioi 'ling spam failed? They send more of them.

[seienchin]

Roman soldiers had training and motivation second to none. Of course warrior and hunter cultures had better individual soldiers, but still, everybody lost against rome. :book:

[Ludens]

the most surprisingly bad units are roman legionnaries (especially the marian ones)...
In reality they were ABSOLUTELY THE BEST INFANTRY IN THE WORLD, while in the game they are inferior to elite hoplites, thorakitai, phalanxes all of elite barbarian inf units.


Roman soldiers had training and motivation second to none. Of course warrior and hunter cultures had better individual soldiers, but still, everybody lost against rome. :book:

Sorry, but that just isn't true. Roman legionaries received a good training and were generally well-motivated, but not up to the level of elite units. They were rank-and-file, not elite. Just because they won does not mean their basic grunt was superior to everything the enemy had. The Romans had the best, most flexible rank-and-file unit of the time, and that's how it is in the mod.

[antisocialmunky]

Roman legions are 'lings. Individual 'lings may be weak, but the idea is that u can have a seemingly endless rushes of them. What happened when a Romaioi 'ling spam failed? They send more of them.

You know, that's not really a good analogy since Legionaires are discounted rather than cheap throw away. If you want to see a zerg rush, go watch some MP games of Getai.

They are more like Marines where you can do a disproportionate damage to them since they are so cheap and plentiful you can gain critical mass to be immune from rush attacks or attack the zerg at like 3 places at once though they die rather easily in small groups to everything.

Or this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXq8ukH65GQ) if you're totally awesome or named NaDa.

:smash:

[Cute Wolf]

You know, that's not really a good analogy since Legionaires are discounted rather than cheap throw away. If you want to see a zerg rush, go watch some MP games of Getai.

They are more like Marines where you can do a disproportionate damage to them since they are so cheap and plentiful you can gain critical mass to be immune from rush attacks or attack the zerg at like 3 places at once though they die rather easily in small groups to everything.

Or this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXq8ukH65GQ) if you're totally awesome or named NaDa.

:smash:

Yeah... we can suspect in EB 2, the roman legionary's price will be definitely higher, but their regeneration rate at the recruitment pool is very high... maybe SPQR will be capable to train 3 unit of legionaries per city everytime without gettin exhausted their recruitment. Except when the population was unavailable... this way is more realistic then getting cheap supperior line soldiers come in 100 me, while the others come in 80 men.

[-Praetor-]

the most surprisingly bad units are roman legionnaries (especially the marian ones)...
In reality they were ABSOLUTELY THE BEST INFANTRY IN THE WORLD, while in the game they are inferior to elite hoplites, thorakitai, phalanxes all of elite barbarian inf units.

You could ask Jugurtha, Mithridates, Arminius or Surena if roman legionaires were super humans...

They were the best medium infantry in the world at the time. But they weren't super humans, and you have to know how to use them.

[seienchin]

You could ask Jugurtha, Mithridates, Arminius or Surena if roman legionaires were super humans...

They were the best medium infantry in the world at the time. But they weren't super humans, and you have to know how to use them.
Still you can assume that they were more powerfull than normal hoplites at that time :book::book:
Not to mention the eastern infantry, which the romans slaughtered even when outnumbered 5 to 1:2thumbsup:

[athanaric]

Not to mention the eastern infantry, which the romans slaughtered even when outnumbered 5 to 1:2thumbsup:

Yeah... except when Marcus Antonius had to withdraw from Northern Iran, although the terrain there favoured his troops...

Just depends on what you mean by Eastern infantry. It's not just one unit type, and they weren't all bad.

[Cute Wolf]

Not to mention the eastern infantry, which the romans slaughtered even when outnumbered 5 to 1:2thumbsup:

Pantodapoi, Kavakaza Sparabara, Gundi Nizagan, and Hai Nizgarmantik :laugh4: Not to mention Nomad verieties....

They are bad infantry, useful only as meatshields against swordsmen, although the later two are useful vs nomads...

[athanaric]

Pantodapoi, Kavakaza Sparabara, Gundi Nizagan, and Hai Nizgarmantik :laugh4: Not to mention Nomad verieties....

They are bad infantry, useful only as meatshields against swordsmen, although the later two are useful vs nomads...

They are actually good, unless you throw them at professional Romans, Northern Barbarians, or certain elite units. Every unit type has its purpose and its strengths (except Apeleutheroi). Drapanai for example totally suck against missiles. Still nobody calls them bad, because they have other strengths.

BTW Pandas are by far the worst of the lot. Gund-î Nizagân and the Hai guys are quite decent vs. missile troops, so use accordingly.

[antisocialmunky]

Yeah... we can suspect in EB 2, the roman legionary's price will be definitely higher, but their regeneration rate at the recruitment pool is very high... maybe SPQR will be capable to train 3 unit of legionaries per city everytime without gettin exhausted their recruitment. Except when the population was unavailable... this way is more realistic then getting cheap supperior line soldiers come in 100 me, while the others come in 80 men.

Don't forget about infinite reinforcements :beam: Actually, scratch that. Imagine the EB1 AS stacks except with infinite reinforcement....:skull:

[Cute Wolf]

Don't forget about infinite reinforcements :beam: Actually, scratch that. Imagine the EB1 AS stacks except with infinite reinforcement....:skull:

I've got unlimited men on the battlefield, and manage to throw off many times several AS attacks, especially when their army comprised solely (if not mostly) pantodapoi...

And when they start throwing Argyraspidai, I have their "holy :daisy: they are soo :daisy: effective!" counter.....
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/saba/saba_redsea_axemen.gif

Thanks to their eagerness to be sent on certain suicide missions, they even sent those poor argyraspides running when they simply charge the phalangitai's flank.... Just think as a bit ineffective, as well sightly exspensive form of drapanai.....

[seienchin]

Yeah they are really good armoured unit killers.
At least I thought so until I fought an AS stack complelty made of phalangitai, the better armoured thorakitai, kataphraktoi and Fms in a plain in syria...:book::book:
Instant death for everysaba army (At least when you are not using greek units):sweatdrop:

[athanaric]

Thanks to their eagerness to be sent on certain suicide missions, they even sent those poor argyraspides running when they simply charge the phalangitai's flank.... Just think as a bit ineffective, as well sightly exspensive form of drapanai.....

They fare much better vs missiles than Drapanai though, plus they come in larger numbers. Sadly they don't have javelins, unlike most other axemen. Still a cost-effective and pretty unit.

[team_kramnik]

Still the arabs have morale 11 vs. 15 for the drapanai.
Makes alot of difference for an assault unit.

Can't say I share the same experiance as others with with the sabean units.
They neither have the morale of thracians, sweboz or lusos, nor the armor
of greeks and romans making them much too fickle for my taste.


Another unit I dislike:

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/koinon-hellenon/kh_thorakitai.gif

Thorakitai are a bit of a fan favourite thanks to their good combat stats but I would trade them for
basically anything. With a very slow animation and no stamina they are the slowest unit in the game.
Even pezheteiroi move much faster. Maybe I'm just not patient enough to use them.


To write something positiv:

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/lusotannan/lus_ambakaro.gif

Ambakaro get a undeserved bad rap. They have 6 javelins to soften the enemy but
their speciality is to cut through infantry in melee. With 18 morale, very good stamina
and ap swords they are a legions worst nightmare west of Thrace.

I prefer them to the Vascii tanks as with elite units I look for offensiv capability.
WHat good is ridiculous armor if your allies get slaughtered all around you?

[athanaric]

Of course the Arab guys are still inferior to Drapanai. Playing Saba is a bit of a PitA, as it requires a lot of micro-ing. Still that is what makes it interesting to me. You have no "I win" units or formations like Makedonia or SPQR; instead of that, you have to rely on your wits, just as with the barbarian factions. Defeating elites with mediocre units feels very rewarding.

As a side note, IMO the biggest weakness of Saba is not their unit roster (which I can manage with), but their inability to build paved roads.


e: yes but Thorakitai are still useful as (not-so-mobile) cavalry eaters. I prefer them to phalangites, because although slow, they are reliable and more versatile.

[Cute Wolf]

Thorakitai are not too slow.... at least their line is much more flexible than phalangitai line... and they are not helpless against javelin throwers (they can throw some javelins, that's all)

Actually with KH, My Thorakitai rules all the Mediterania!

[team_kramnik]

As a side note, IMO the biggest weakness of Saba is not their unit roster (which I can manage with), but their inability to build paved roads.

But that's their greatest strenght. Invading ai armies take forever while you can just use ships.



e: yes but Thorakitai are still useful as (not-so-mobile) cavalry eaters. I prefer them to phalangites, because although slow, they are reliable and more versatile.

Not sure what you mean with more versatile. You can use both as barrier. But facing mobile armies who
are not good in melee like e.g. an army with lots of cheap skirmishers I would often use a kind of inverted hammer and anvil. Engade the enemy with my quick assault units then let the phalangitai
charge in their back using swords. You can't do that with Thorakitai, the fight would be over
before they reach the enemy.

[athanaric]

They are less vulnerable to charges or concentrated missiles from awkward angles (usually backside). Also they are better on walls, where Phalangitai get slaughtered (I guess it's because of the low defense skill).

I haven't yet really tried your inversion tactics, so I can't say much about that. When I engage skirmisher armies, I usually play barbarians (who are fast enough to catch the buggers) or cavalry factions, or I just shoot them to pieces in true Achaemenid style.

[team_kramnik]

They are less vulnerable to charges or concentrated missiles from awkward angles (usually backside). Also they are better on walls, where Phalangitai get slaughtered (I guess it's because of the low defense skill).

all true

[WinsingtonIII]

Still the arabs have morale 11 vs. 15 for the drapanai.
Makes alot of difference for an assault unit.

Which is why Hyrkanian Hillmen are the true Drapanai of the East. They have 15 morale just like the Draps, but they have shields, which mean they don't die quite as fast (but still fairly fast) to missiles, and javelins, and they have 40 more men in a unit (on huge). However, on the downside, they have a lower lethality attack and most importantly, they cost over twice as much as Drapanai, which means they can't really fill the role Drapanai do of being cheap and expendable assault troops as well. But they are still a stellar unit and I've had great success with them.

[Yarema]

Satalexton:Roman legions are 'lings. Individual 'lings may be weak, but the idea is that u can have a seemingly endless rushes of them. What happened when a Romaioi 'ling spam failed? They send more of them.
"lings", "destroy barbaropolis" "(...)kicking Romaioi butt(...)" "...the graetest of all Barbaroi", "kill all romans" - it's getting kinda boring, u know.

As for the "lings" - if i memory is correct, the romans always defeated the greeks in the first battle (Flamininus at Cynoscephalae, Ameilius Pauluysa at Pydna, Acilius Glabrio at Thermopylae, Scipio Asiaticus at Magnesia and others not-so-well-known). The only exception was Pyrrhus, but he fought the romans before the legion became an efficient war machine it was made after tha battle of Baecula. And even Pyrrhus didn't manage to defeat the romans, his war could be called a "bloody stalemate" (at best).

Ludens:Sorry, but that just isn't true. Roman legionaries received a good training and were generally well-motivated, but not up to the level of elite units. They were rank-and-file, not elite. Just because they won does not mean their basic grunt was superior to everything the enemy had. The Romans had the best, most flexible rank-and-file unit of the time, and that's how it is in the mod.
I agree, but it even elite roman units (cohors evocata, antesignani) don't beat elite hellenic inf units...
I do realise that it is impossipble to recreate all the advantages of a legion in a computer game - it has already been said in some thread so i'm not going to repeat it. Still, i think the legions are a bit to weak compared to greek inf in EB - other than that, the mod i perfect and i love it :beam:


Praetor: You could ask Jugurtha, Mithridates, Arminius or Surena if roman legionaires were super humans...
They were the best medium infantry in the world at the time. But they weren't super humans, and you have to know how to use them.Yeah, right, but i don't understand why people bring up those FEW defeats that the romans sustained, thinking that it will make us forget about their countless victories. It's like: "HAHA! You see? The Romans DID lose at Carrhae and T. forest! So i was right! they are useless as soldiers after all!".
Why are we using latin alphabet in here? Why are our judicial systems all bade on the roman one? Is it because Rome conquered the world, or because greeks conquered rome and thoght :"hey, their stuff is better than ours, we must change our ways!"
And Romans were far more than just "medium inf" (even if u mean "the best medium inf"). True professionals, second to none. I believe someone quoted Polybios of M-polis who gives the reasons why phalanx is no match for a legion...

[anubis88]

I really disagree with everything you said. It seems you lack proper history background, because some of the comments are just wrong.
The Romans lost a lot of battles, they just didn't lose any wars.
You can't compare the elite Roman units with other elites. the Hellenistic elites were units which were equiped from toe to face with the most expansive and best armour available. That's the reason they were so few in numbers. Rome on the other hand, had a lot of the "elite" units, but they weren't elite because of their equipment, they were elite because they were veterans.
Actually Rome has no elite units, only the Pretorians could be considered as such, but their drawback was that they almost never had experience.

The Romans were great line soldiers, but nothing special.
The thing is, that rome could mass in a heartbeat 50.000 of these men, which was impossible for any other country to achive. Even if Rome lost an army, it could raise a new one practically in the next day. Things could be grim for Rome, if the enemy had had the same possibility.

Imagine: At Magnesia, the Romans got really lucky IMO, and the chariots and the departure of cavalry to far outside the battle were the main reason the Romans won. If Antiochos had the same resources as Rome, he would fight another battle, leave the chariots, augment his cavalry force, and Rome could be defeated.

That's a lot of "if-s", but that's my opinion.

Long story short, Rome had very good soldiers in huge numbers, but not any great elites

[WinsingtonIII]

I don't understand this lobby to improve Roman units. They already have some of the best rank-and-file infantry in the game, and it is certainly some of the most cost-efficient infantry in the game (as it should be). It wouldn't be fun to play with the Romani if their units could just steamroll over anything in their path.

The Romani campaign is already one of the easiest campaigns in EB, I don't understand why there is a need to make it easier.

[Yarema]

anubis88, you completely misunderstood my post. I am comparing greek and roman forces. And i might have amnesia, but i don't remember any battle in which the greeks defeated the romans (besides the battle of pyrrhus, but i worte sth about that didn't i?)


The Romans were great line soldiers, but nothing special.
The thing is, that rome could mass in a heartbeat 50.000 of these men, which was impossible for any other country to achive. Even if Rome lost an army, it could raise a new one practically in the next day. Things could be grim for Rome, if the enemy had had the same possibility.Yeah, nothing special. creating and maintaining the worlds mightiest empire was really a deed achieved by an army which was "nothing special". Actually they got lucky. At magnesia they got VERY lucky. and at watling road they were just lucky. At Alesia thay were also lucky. And at zama, cynoscephalae, tapae, they never had a BETTER TRAINED, BETTER ORGANISED, BETTER LEAD and BETTER ARMED army, they were just lucky. And the fact that they were able not only to create an empire but also hold on to it for hundreds of years was also a matter of luck, not of an almost perfect army and wise policies. It was just luck.
And if some other tribe/state could amass such great armies, they could be beaten easily, right?

But wasn't it the greeks who had numerical advantage in most battles? the romans always defeated them in the first battle. If they would lose, rome would justfield another army. But rome never lost to greeks.

As for rome's opponents fileding massive armies - i'm probabbly ignorant, but i always thought that the gauls, for insance, outnumbered caesar's men in gaul? and didn't the cimbri/teutones outnumber the romans in their battles? and the battle of tigranocerta, and all others?
Dammit, in most of their battles the romans were actually outnumbered, but nobody seems to remember that... People only remember Hannibal form the 2nd punic war (but they refuse to remember other roman-punic battles, like the battle of Ilipa or baecula, and seem to refuse to acknowledge the fact that other punic generals were not like Hannibal). Actually, if the Carthies would implement wiser policies towards their spanish and african subjects (just as rome did towards italians), Carthage could be able to field equally large armies. but the fact is that rome was smart, Carthage (nd others) were not.
I'm tired of writing, people who say roman army was inferior to the greek one just think they are Demiurges, who can change reality by wishful thikning (or wishful talking).

[antisocialmunky]

They were better in the way that CAPPED font is better than uncapped font in making your point. I'm so sick of that discussion, you can answer him Ludens.

Anyways:

@Winsington - They are actually a little underpowered as a faction in Marian and beyond. They have no heavy infantry with AP and get ripped apart by AP armed heavily armored units like those Dacian Strateoi. The post-Marian army gets ripped to shreds by cataphracts while the Polybian units can hold thier own due for whatever reason due to their slightly better per man stats. Maybe if the Roman infantry had more killing power, they would be a contender for jack of all trades in EB but as of right now they are just mediocrely effective but numerous sword infantry that have to attrition everything. However they are quite decent at taking forever to die so Archer + Marian Legion can be harder to break than phalanx + Archer.

Polybian Principes are probably the best general infantry in the game though.

I'm speaking of MP. Everything beats AI.

[Yarema]

now that was just rude...

[athanaric]

but the fact is that rome was smart, Carthage (nd others) were not.

You said it, the Romans were smarter, not more 1337. The reason they were successful were:

- they had the right guys at the right time

- they could muster mass quality heavy infantry faster than anybody else

- many of their enemies were disorganized, had depleted militaries or civil wars going at the time Rome engaged them

AFAIK they were never famous for elite units. Plus nobody here said that Greeks always pwned Romans. They certainly didn't. Still Romans lost many battles against the Parthians and Sassanids, and were finally defeated by Germanic/N. Iranian hordes. Had the Greeks been properly organized and unified, Rome would have had a much tougher time conquering them.
The only real empire the post Marian Romans faced was the Parthian/Persian one, which they couldn't defeat. And that despite a lot of infighting among the Parthians.

[WinsingtonIII]

@Winsington - They are actually a little underpowered as a faction in Marian and beyond. They have no heavy infantry with AP and get ripped apart by AP armed heavily armored units like those Dacian Strateoi. The post-Marian army gets ripped to shreds by cataphracts while the Polybian units can hold thier own due for whatever reason due to their slightly better per man stats. Maybe if the Roman infantry had more killing power, they would be a contender for jack of all trades in EB but as of right now they are just mediocrely effective but numerous sword infantry that have to attrition everything. However they are quite decent at taking forever to die so Archer + Marian Legion can be harder to break than phalanx + Archer.

Polybian Principes are probably the best general infantry in the game though.

I'm speaking of MP. Everything beats AI.

Ah, I see.... I never made it that far into the game with the Romans so I wouldn't know. The Camillian and Polybian units always seemed quite good to me, but I wouldn't know about the Marian ones.

Obviously beating the AI is not particularly difficult with the units as they are now, but if you make them better then the challenge will just decrease more, and I don't think that's a good thing. But, for multiplayer, I can understand the concern, as it makes it more effective to bring a Polybian army rather than a Marian army, which doesn't really make sense.

[seienchin]

I dont understand the people atacking the romans here at all. Of course people do not like the winners, but the charming loosers like hannibal and pyrrhus(yes he lost).
Still saying they just had more manpower is nonsense. The romans really fought most of their famous battles without much numerival superiority.
And saying the romans units were no match for other empires cavallery is in my opinion only speculation. Actually we do not know... What we do know is that the romans always won and they won against armies with a huge part of elite troops.

[A Very Super Market]

Numerical superiority isn't manpower. Manpower is the body of men that a state could use to fight wars. Romans always had more of that. Said body of men were by and large heavy infantry, not equestrians. Roman cavalry was proved to be inferior throughout it's history, and demonstrated by the their policy of using regional auxiliaries to fulfill that role instead. Of course, it doesn't matter if your native cavalry arm is poor if you are a faction based in heavy infantry. That is irrelevant.

Though I am a phalanx proponent, I must say that I do not feel any sympathies for either side of the argument here at the .org. There is too much pretentious, too much hard-line statements and static arguments. The idea that two fighting styles in ancient history could so mismatched is absurd. The fact remains that the Romans fought the phalanx at a height in their power, whilst the successor's had declined sharply.

[seienchin]

What do you mean by decline? In their power? Maybe! in their strategy and tactics? Very unlikely. The phalanx also had its evolution from Philips levy driven army to the professional agyraspidai or the more heavily protected macedonians.
Pyrrus is an excellent example for modern tactics, but still he lost to the romans, even before they had their professional armies.:book:

[anubis88]

What do you mean by decline? In their power? Maybe! in their strategy and tactics? Very unlikely. The phalanx also had its evolution from Philips levy driven army to the professional agyraspidai or the more heavily protected macedonians.
Pyrrus is an excellent example for modern tactics, but still he lost to the romans, even before they had their professional armies.:book:

Phillip probably had more Hetairoi in his army, then all of the Hellenistic rulers that oposed Rome combined. That's a pretty important factor.

The strategy was worse than in Phillips time. The hellenistic rulers forgot that to use a hammer and anvil tactic, you actually need a hammer

[A Very Super Market]

Agyraspidai did not make up the majority of forces at any of the battle fought by Rome and Hellas. How could a state be in decline and afford entire armies of elites?

What is speculation is this argument. There has been nothing near an equal stand-off between the two. We have no examples to draw conclusions from, and all discussion is baseless.

[antisocialmunky]

It was always a middle class city dwelling core with a very large levy contingent until they became desperate when the Romans had them by Southern Greece and Illyria.

It also didn't help that the Agyraspidai were so stubborn that they got surrounded and fought to the death.

[Cute Wolf]

t also didn't help that the Agyraspidai were so stubborn that they got surrounded and fought to the death.

Only happened in EB! :2thumbsup:

In real life, when surrounded, bet most of them will flee for their life...

[seienchin]

Phillip probably had more Hetairoi in his army, then all of the Hellenistic rulers that oposed Rome combined. That's a pretty important factor.

The strategy was worse than in Phillips time. The hellenistic rulers forgot that to use a hammer and anvil tactic, you actually need a hammer
What? No, they didnt forget hammer and anvil.
It was just not easy to trick the enemy any more, every body knew about the tactics alexander used.

[Ludens]

Let's calm down here, OK? Nobody is saying that Roman legionaries weren't any good. I think the "nothing special" comment meant that the legionaires were not elite. Which they weren't: they were well-trained and equipped, but not as well as elite units.

The legionaries, in my opinion, were the best rank-and-file unit of the day. But I do get annoyed at the claims of certain people that, because Rome won all her wars, her soldiers should be superior to anything on the map. Wars aren't won by the quality of the soldiers alone, and even if it was Rome lost a fair few battles so obviously her soldiers weren't that good. Does anyone disagree with that?

By the way, the victories against the Hellenic states were not won by professional legionaries: these were still the conscript levy that had learned sword-fighting from their fathers. They had become proficient through years of fighting in the second Punic war. This experience counts for a lot: as soon as this generation retires, Rome suffered a string of defeats at the hands of Iberian tribes and the sorry remains of Carthage.


Agyraspidai did not make up the majority of forces at any of the battle fought by Rome and Hellas. How could a state be in decline and afford entire armies of elites?

IIRC the Macedonian army used the term Argyraspides for the longer-serving pikemen rather than for an elite unit. That may be the cause of the confusion here.


What is speculation is this argument. There has been nothing near an equal stand-off between the two. We have no examples to draw conclusions from, and all discussion is baseless.

~:shrug: No battle ever has been entirely equal, and so many factors outside of the soldiers' quality affect the outcome.

[antisocialmunky]

Only happened in EB! :2thumbsup:

In real life, when surrounded, bet most of them will flee for their life...

Okay, well it only happened once.

I think it was Perseus's battle at Pydna against Rome where he withdrew and the battle line collapsed and the Macedonian version of them fought to the last, surrounded by the Romans.

[alexanderthegreater]

BACK TO TOPIC!

Since when did this became a phalanx vs legion argument? I believe we had a tournament for that, which we won.

Up yours, Romaioktonoi.

[antisocialmunky]

What was that for?

And I think we settled it as somewhat of a draw though the Hellens got one more victory but none of the other rounds were played.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/eleutheroi/alps/rebel_appea_gaedotos.gif

These guys are surprisingly good. Priced like a Roman unit; it costs less than 300 a turn to upkeep one, and yet they function as decently armored spearmen as well as armor killers with their axes.

[Marcus Ulpius]

Roman legionnaires were very good, compared to the rank and file soldiers of most of their enemies. I'm not an expert, but from what I know, it was mostly levies fighting in wars at that time. Professional soldiers, especially elite ones were rare and extremely expensive. Even relatively better equipped Hellenistic Kleruchoi were in fact levies, although of higher standard. I doubt that any state at that time had significant number of truly professional soldiers. So, I think that an average quality of Roman army was indeed higher than that of their enemies.

[Knight of Heaven]

Let's calm down here, OK? Nobody is saying that Roman legionaries weren't any good. I think the "nothing special" comment meant that the legionaires were not elite. Which they weren't: they were well-trained and equipped, but not as well as elite units.

The legionaries, in my opinion, were the best rank-and-file unit of the day. But I do get annoyed at the claims of certain people that, because Rome won all her wars, her soldiers should be superior to anything on the map. Wars aren't won by the quality of the soldiers alone, and even if it was Rome lost a fair few battles so obviously her soldiers weren't that good. Does anyone disagree with that?

By the way, the victories against the Hellenic states were not won by professional legionaries: these were still the conscript levy that had learned sword-fighting from their fathers. They had become proficient through years of fighting in the second Punic war. This experience counts for a lot: as soon as this generation retires, Rome suffered a string of defeats at the hands of Iberian tribes and the sorry remains of Carthage.



IIRC the Macedonian army used the term Argyraspides for the longer-serving pikemen rather than for an elite unit. That may be the cause of the confusion here.



~:shrug: No battle ever has been entirely equal, and so many factors outside of the soldiers' quality affect the outcome.

The roman legionaries werent elites, allthough, much of the legions who conquered greece, and then defeat the selucids in magnésia were very hard veterans from the wars in africa, against hannibal. they were human beings who past the last 20 years in efective arms, and seen manny victories. they had conquered Spain, Africa , defeated Philip in macedonia, etc
Anyway acording to the theorists, and specialists,as well historians, the roman legionaries, had a special trait a certain resiliance, proper of their social class the roman farmer class, they will fight to the death in manny circustances, they wont give up easy regard the training they had in military, remember the roman mentality was one of have everything or nothing at all. These farmers, centuriatas, had grant of lands, in some cases lands in places not very secured.
Im not saying that the greek Asio-hellenic soldiers didnt have this, but those werent the circunstances at the time. There is more to an elite status then the quality of the material wering.
Butis well knowed that the roman legions were sucessufull, as well, becouse of manny circustances, but mainly becouse they could adapt, very easly in battle to a great manny circunstances. For instance a line of phalanxes with thousend of men, would take hours to form up, and deploy properly. The same wont be the case of the romans. Every cohort had a autonomy on teh battle field that was key to their sucess. Off course If the centurions, or the lieder of the cohorts make a mistake, it wasnt so bad, becouse it was only one cohort, if a phalanxe made a mistake in battle....well it was very costly.

[Theif55]

Another Reason for them to fight to death is Coporal military punishment if a group run 1 in 10 will be killed by drawing lots . if a indviual run the person will die . if the whole 5000 men legion run. 4500 will survive with 500 killed by drawing lot same as 1 in 10



These farmers, centuriatas, had grant of lands, in some cases lands in places not very secured.

if you mean they gain land after doing military service but that happen only after Marian Reforms + they get their land after 25 years of being a small Fry ( legionaire ). if they want to continue their military service they will be promoted to much higher Rankings. + many of those wont be doing much fighting only some like centurion and back-up troops

[Ludens]

Another Reason for them to fight to death is Coporal military punishment if a group run 1 in 10 will be killed by drawing lots . if a indviual run the person will die . if the whole 5000 men legion run. 4500 will survive with 500 killed by drawing lot same as 1 in 10

Firstly, decimation was only used in cases of severe cowardice. Defeated Roman armies were not decimated as a rule. Secondly, by EB's time-frame this punishment was already considered archaic. I am not sure how often it was practiced, but the only instance I know of was during Spartacus' gladiator revolt.

[antisocialmunky]

That's the only instance I remember in antiquity.

Not the last time it was used though...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimation_%28Roman_army%29

Good old Russianess

[Rahwana]

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/eleutheroi/alps/rebel_appea_gaedotos.gif

These guys are surprisingly good. Priced like a Roman unit; it costs less than 300 a turn to upkeep one, and yet they function as decently armored spearmen as well as armor killers with their axes.

They are surprisingly bad in my side... as when the last time I hire several of them as Romani, they are quickly anihilated when I order them to hold Macedonian Phalanx... for a while!!! Even Rorarii does much better job at this!~!!

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

They are surprisingly bad in my side... as when the last time I hire several of them as Romani, they are quickly anihilated when I order them to hold Macedonian Phalanx... for a while!!! Even Rorarii does much better job at this!~!!

Well I wouldn't try to hold phalanxes with anything but other phalanxes or heavy infantry. Appea Gaedotos are medium infantry.

In any event, as Romani I would have used them to flank because they are faster then most Roman infantry and have AP axes to eat into the rear of the phalanx. Use your heavy Romans to pin the phalangites.

Also, I've assaulted barbarian towns with narrow city squares where I've stretched one unit of inexperienced Appea Gaedotos across the whole street in guard mode and they killed a motley collection of Celtic warriors suffering 13 casualties and killing over 150!.

[Ca Putt]

they are good but probably not very valuable for romans as romans have better access to Hoplites on the one side and don't face tooo many armored units in the north anyway(whereas they have their Ped ex early on.... to deal with the occasional FM) for Sweboz they are extremely valueable:
3 halfstacks 2 roman 1 sweboz
1 sweboz Appea Gaedotos at a choakepoint hold off stack 2 while the rest of the sweboz army defeats the 1. roman army. It worked great the AG's broke but not before the 1. army was anihilated and they had killed a decent portion of romans.
oh and they can flank too but as Sweboz you've got better flanking units ;)

[Rahwana]

Well I wouldn't try to hold phalanxes with anything but other phalanxes or heavy infantry. Appea Gaedotos are medium infantry.

In any event, as Romani I would have used them to flank because they are faster then most Roman infantry and have AP axes to eat into the rear of the phalanx. Use your heavy Romans to pin the phalangites.

Also, I've assaulted barbarian towns with narrow city squares where I've stretched one unit of inexperienced Appea Gaedotos across the whole street in guard mode and they killed a motley collection of Celtic warriors suffering 13 casualties and killing over 150!.

I only have polybian hastati, and no other spear - troop type when I decide to attack macedonian holdings in Illyria, I think because the Rorarii (lower qualty spear armed infantry), can hold the phalanx enough to let hastati finish the job, they should becapable to hold enemy phalangitai deuteroi in longer time... but my expectation failed.....

:furious3:

Well, at least now I tought the sheer numbers of rorarii made them capable to doing that feat, where Appea Gaedatos has less men per unit...

[Knight of Heaven]

I only have polybian hastati, and no other spear - troop type when I decide to attack macedonian holdings in Illyria, I think because the Rorarii (lower qualty spear armed infantry), can hold the phalanx enough to let hastati finish the job, they should becapable to hold enemy phalangitai deuteroi in longer time... but my expectation failed.....

:furious3:

Well, at least now I tought the sheer numbers of rorarii made them capable to doing that feat, where Appea Gaedatos has less men per unit...

That cant be. How manny chevrons had your rorari? that is the only explainable reason.

[Cute Wolf]

That cant be. How manny chevrons had your rorari? that is the only explainable reason.

Afaik, with other spear units, activate guard mode, and order them to attack the phalanx, they'll hold for considerable time unless flanked, even the Lugoae can be relied to do this, as long as they only face pezhetairoi downwards.... (NOTE : This only works in medium battle difficulty, get hard, and your low class spearmen are simply gutted!)

[antisocialmunky]

I thought he said he failed.

[alexanderthegreater]

Isnt it about time for a 1.3 edition?

[WinsingtonIII]

Isnt it about time for a 1.3 edition?

Well.... Considering there is no EB 1.3, and never will be, because the team is making EB2, I don't see what purpose a "surprisingly good and bad units 1.3 edition" thread would serve.

Or were you joking? Sarcasm is hard to pick up on in print.

[seienchin]

The raethian axeman are definitly surprisingly good. Because they have more men than most other units I thought they must be bad levys at first, but I used them in every campain I did in the west (roman, carthagenian, lusotann,aedui) and they are one of the best units in the game.
They slaugthered samniti milites, samniti hastati, and with some chevrons even principes. I think they are a little bit overpowered like the lusotan light spearmen, (As a matter of fact in custom battle they sometimes beat the medium spearmen 1 on 1) but maybe my favourite unit in EB.:egypt:

[athanaric]

The raethian axeman are definitly surprisingly good. Because they have more men than most other units I thought they must be bad levys at first, but I used them in every campain I did in the west (roman, carthagenian, lusotann,aedui) and they are one of the best units in the game.
Agreed. Tekastos are one of the most important units for Gauls or Swêboz, especially against Roman or Phalanx troops.

[satalexton]

Milnhaut (sp) works fine too. they chew through anything and can even hold elites without much loss

[alexanderthegreater]

I have another unit to add:

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/makedonia/mak_agrianiai_pellek.gif

Surprisingly good. Being that theyre relatively lightly armored for elites, i didnt think theyd be worth the cash.
But when fighting a battle against some ptollies that had gotten behind my main force (a cleaning up battle) The were surprisingly effective. Complete eating all the ptollie infantry (thureophoroi and peltastai mostly) although they do take some casualties their offensive power is remarkable they cut through any shieldwall.

[athanaric]

Ah, the all-purpose Gebirgsjägers. Invaluable for killing enemy phalanx...

[Grade_A_Beef]

Is it me, or does the Dacian Bodyguard Cavalry do surprisingly well against most Cavalry in its area? Statwise I think they are superior to even the Epiroite Bodyguards, and only lose out the the Hetairoi and the Pontic bodyguards.

On another note, the Komatai are awesome and are a very capable light infantry force.

[antisocialmunky]

Indo Hellenic Mounted Agema are absolutely awesome. 5 Shield makes them able to run in and out of arrow fire.

[Macilrille]

There is 32 pages of replies now, so I cannot be bothered to look through them all (perhaps the OP would want to summarise and conclude? *nudge-nudge).

I would like to chuck in my 50 Øre for the Dacian Skirmishers. I never played Getai begore, but in my current trial Getai campaign the Dacian Skirmishers are very hardy and resilient in melee as well. And as they are fast and maneuvreable they can also outmaneuvre their opponents in many instances.

[DaciaJC]

There is 32 pages of replies now, so I cannot be bothered to look through them all (perhaps the OP would want to summarise and conclude? *nudge-nudge).

I would like to chuck in my 50 Øre for the Dacian Skirmishers. I never played Getai begore, but in my current trial Getai campaign the Dacian Skirmishers are very hardy and resilient in melee as well. And as they are fast and maneuvreable they can also outmaneuvre their opponents in many instances.

The Komatai have been mentioned numerous times in this thread. Excellent troops, I would agree.

How are you enjoying your Getai campaign?

[Zim]

I think they were actually mentioned just in the last page, although they're so great they're worth multiple mentions. Those are the komatai, right? It's been a bit since I played the Getai, but I remember those skirmishers stood me well against far "better" troops.

It shouldn't surprise me since slingers have always been more useful than expected, but in my KH campaign Sphendetoi (possibly horribly mangled spelling) have been much more useful than I expected. I guess I'm just so used to getting Belearic mercs when I play in the west I forget that just a few experience points allow normal slingers to do as well as them.

[Macilrille]

Hey Frontline, I admit freely to have not read anything at all- seing those 32 pages I decided to skip them all.
Anyway, I enjoyed Baktria quite a lot by which I was pleasantly surprised, and I enjoy the Getai as well. Their unit rooster is much better than my beloved Sweboz, which makes it a much easier campaign it seems, Epeiros and Macedonia (even though the latter has grown very powerful and attacked me) are not really comparable to the Roman juggernaut always turning north, and the Macs get easily scared by naked barbarians of various sorts. When the low-armoured, scary second line who awaits the missile exchange ending, charge or charge out of hiding from an ambush, all those wannabee Greeks from Epeiros and Macedonia turn tail and run.

It is quite fun til now though, the good units make them fun barbarians to play, the lesser challenge less fun, though... nah the challenge is ok. It can sometimes feel hopeless to play Sweboz with bad economy, bad units and a red flood coming north. I have usually used the scary tactic, but next time I will try more for Duguntz' realistic Ambush tactic, which I sometimes test in the Getais game on a lesser scale as well. I like it, but the Sweboz are still my favorite barbarians; the getai has some measure of civilisation, the Sweboz none at all ;-)

Experience makes everyone a killer ;-)

[Tiberius Claudius Marcellus]

Yeah, that's why they are so scary. It seems that Penisses were were very terrible those ages.

That should go on a t-shirt!


Ugh, I hate those little turds(Drapanai). They ripped an entire legion of fresh recruits from Capua down by half with their ferocious swing. They are always a favored merc unit of mine when in N. Greece and Illyria.

In my latest Getai campaign I have had the fortunate luck to successfully ambush 3 Mak and 2 Epirote columns invading my territories, each led by a family member. I put my Drapanai to either side of that family member and, no kidding, within 30 seconds of making contact the FM is killed and the rout is on!

They do die in droves, but they're so worth their ability to annihilate enemy forces.

[Dutchhoplite]

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/sauromatae/sau_aorsi_nobles.gif

Aorsi Noble Cavalry

I've used them twice now in my Sauromatae campaign but both times were very disappointing. They just just keep dying like flies :no:

[athanaric]

Aorsi Noble Cavalry

I've used them twice now in my Sauromatae campaign but both times were very disappointing. They just just keep dying like flies :no:

Um, I've found them very useful. Quite resistant to arrows, and good in melee vs light cavalry. Of course they die like flies if you send them in melee against Hoplitai or Drapanai, but for anti-infantry tasks you have other troops.
Actually one of my favourite Sauromatae units...

By the way, anybody else find it unfair that the Saka Rauka can recruit the entire Sauromatae roster (bar the BGs of course), whereas the same doesn't apply the other way round?

[tarem]

i found the arabian light skirmisher cavalry surprisingly good for the money payed, as soon as i reached the recruitment zones where they are available and built level 3 or 4 goverments. so now when ever possible i always bring along 2 or 3 of these guys when figthing in the east. they make very good skirmishers that don't tire easy.

one of the units that did not live to my expectations was the reformed phalanx of the makedones. maybe i expected too much, or maybe i used them in a wrong way? anyway they were very expensive but their performance in phalanx warfare is not notably above the default pezetaeroi of the hellenic factions and the heavy armor just makes them tire faster when on the march. did anyone notice where do these guys shine actualy?

[Drag0nUL]

Hi. After going through a few campaigns (Seleucid and Carthage completed, currently playing Epeiros after failing Sweboz and Getai, really need to get better at blitzing) I can say I've been greatly impressed with Pantodapoi Phalangitai and Thureoporoi.

As long as they are not subject to heavy missile fire(their only big weakness IMHO), the Pantodapoi Phalagitai can hold a line reasonably well even against heavier and better trained infantry. Also their AP axes make them pretty nasty out of phalanx as well.

As for Thureoporoi, I've used them to cover the side of the pahalanx and often to spearhead the attack on cities, and they've performed much better than I've expectedconsidering their cost pretty much against anything(phalanxes, missile fire, heavy infantry, cavalry). As a side note: for some reason, despite having identical stats, the performance of the Lybian spearmen in my Carthage campaign was less than stellar. They got the job done but always suffered heavy losses, even vs. lighter infantry like Caetrati or Rorarii/Hastati.

[Skoran]

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/eleutheroi/eastern/rebel_nizag_gund.gif

Parthian spearman in shieldwall formation = WIN!

I am playing as Baktria and those saka troops die like cattle when they attack my cities where these guys are defending.

[Cute Wolf]

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/eleutheroi/eastern/rebel_nizag_gund.gif

Parthian spearman in shieldwall formation = WIN!

I am playing as Baktria and those saka troops die like cattle when they attack my cities where these guys are defending.

Duguntiz pwn them in 1 on 1 combat w shieldwall formation :laugh4:

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Well in the East spearmen are generally asked to do nothing more than kill cavalry while in the West they need to be able to beat infantry as well.


https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/lusotannan/ele_ibe_iabarannta.gif

I would like to vote for again for another unit(this is like my sixth vote) for Ambushers. Easily recruitable, decent light spearmen but also excellent skirmishers in the Iberian mold. Available all across the penninsula.

I would also like to point out the weakness of the Aorsi Nobles is the fact that they use their spear overhand and as such, are not a good charging cavalry. However, they fare well in melee against light horse.

[Attack]

My most pleasant surprise has been:

Skuda Baexdzhyntae (Scythian Riders)
Skuda Fat Aexsdzhytae (Scythian Horse-Archers)

Cheap,
Long Range,
Quick,
Plentiful ammo,

These are the first such horse-archers available to my Roman legions and are quickly replacing 90% of the archers/slingers.

In a full stack I'd have about 6 of these guys who would rush around the flanks of my opponents army unloading their arrows to the side/rear from a safe distance. Inevitably they will draw the attention of several units from which they will spend the rest of the battle skirmishing away from, the remaining forces will be outnumbered by my line and destroyed piecemeal. The Riders and Archers return to run down the enemy..

Also fun, I usually send a few of these guys out just ahead of my main stack. An opposing army (full stack) will attack, I'll fight and whittle what I can until the ammo is finished then retreat past the main stack.

[Havok.]

My most pleasant surprise has been:

Skuda Baexdzhyntae (Scythian Riders)
Skuda Fat Aexsdzhytae (Scythian Horse-Archers)

Cheap,
Long Range,
Quick,
Plentiful ammo,

These are the first such horse-archers available to my Roman legions and are quickly replacing 90% of the archers/slingers.

In a full stack I'd have about 6 of these guys who would rush around the flanks of my opponents army unloading their arrows to the side/rear from a safe distance. Inevitably they will draw the attention of several units from which they will spend the rest of the battle skirmishing away from, the remaining forces will be outnumbered by my line and destroyed piecemeal. The Riders and Archers return to run down the enemy..

Also fun, I usually send a few of these guys out just ahead of my main stack. An opposing army (full stack) will attack, I'll fight and whittle what I can until the ammo is finished then retreat past the main stack.

Seconded on both

[moonburn]

By the way, anybody else find it unfair that the Saka Rauka can recruit the entire Sauromatae roster (bar the BGs of course), whereas the same doesn't apply the other way round?

sauromatae horse archers are cheaper and thus you can overcompensate this by taking twice as many horse archers to batle then the saka

[Amoxcalli]

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/makedonia/mak_agrianiai_pellek.gif

Agrianikoi Pelekephoroi (Agrianian Assault Infantry) were a real surprise for me. Sure, their AOR isn't fantastic and they're not really Makedonia's most elite troops, but other than that, they're perfect!

Initially (although that may be subscribed to my carelessness as well) I thought of them as the poor man's version of Peltastai Makedonikoi. They're not. First of all, they carry axes instead of swords, which, in my experience, makes a massive difference, especially against the rather heavily armed forces of the Arche, Koinon Hellenon and Epeiros. Also, unlike PelMak, the increased range of their javelins means they're actually useful. They're also cheaper and more numerous.

In defence of PelMaks, they're better disciplined, armoured and have a higher attack. Still, Agrianikoi Pelekephoroi were quite a surprise!

[Grade_A_Beef]

Don't the Thracian Peltasts outclass them? Unless I'm missing something here...

Sorry I'm too used to falxmen and thracians to consider any other armor piercing units in that region.

[satalexton]

Agrianikoi have less armour, denser formation, and a choppier axe.

[Grade_A_Beef]

Ohhh, nice, they have a denser formation! That helps a lot, as I can never use the falxmen against heavy infantry for anything other than attacking from behind due to that incredibly loose formation =(

[satalexton]

yeah that's the downside. At least the peltasts have a thueros shield, the rhomphiaphoroi only have a measly taka...and an even looser formation....

[DaciaJC]

Ohhh, nice, they have a denser formation! That helps a lot, as I can never use the falxmen against heavy infantry for anything other than attacking from behind due to that incredibly loose formation =(

I see the loose formation as useful - it allows the Drapanai to wrap around the flanks of the densely packed enemy.

[Cute Wolf]

I see the loose formation as useful - it allows the Drapanai to wrap around the flanks of the densely packed enemy.

Drapanai warp arround the flanks? :inquisitive: with their allready 80 men strength at large size, they should running directly into flanks instead... as most of their enemies had pesky sarrisa to made a kebab of them...

[Ca Putt]

imagine the casualties they would suffer from Arrows when they had a close formation :D
surely flies would not drop as fast ^^

still loose formation often ruins a close flanking manover (on huge)

[antisocialmunky]

That' true though in my experience, arrows will rout 1 unit before impact and then the other 19 will cut the enemy to ribbons.

[DaciaJC]

Drapanai warp arround the flanks? :inquisitive: with their allready 80 men strength at large size, they should running directly into flanks instead... as most of their enemies had pesky sarrisa to made a kebab of them...

If you're facing isolated units, yes. If you're going up against an unbroken front, obviously you need to send in some holding troops and flank with the Drapanai.

[teoman10]

I haven`t really checked if this unit is allready mentioned, but it should be anyway,
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/baktria/bak_indohellenikoi_peltastai.gif

Peltastai Indohellenikoi (Indo-Greek Peltasts)
they may not look much, but they have javelin attack, some armor and a SPEAR. I have played with a friend a few times and both times he slaughtered my cavalry wings and Equites singulares, since i was thinking that it was just a standard knife armed peltast group

[vartan]

I haven`t really checked if this unit is allready mentioned, but it should be anyway,
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/baktria/bak_indohellenikoi_peltastai.gif

Peltastai Indohellenikoi (Indo-Greek Peltasts)
they may not look much, but they have javelin attack, some armor and a SPEAR. I have played with a friend a few times and both times he slaughtered my cavalry wings and Equites singulares, since i was thinking that it was just a standard knife armed peltast group

EXACTLY! These guys are awesome. Not only did they take out many of my imperial Romans, but they surrounded my own flankers, thus slowly killing my right flank. Had I not defeated Saka's right flank in time I may have lost the battle. I am referring to this battle (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_9pUmVaDLY) seen on YouTube.

[antisocialmunky]

Hordes of those guys against cavalry/missiel light armies is just murder.

[Rahwana]

Hordes of those guys against cavalry/missiel light armies is just murder.

I think Iudaioi Taxeis is similar with them, and hey, they got more men!!!

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/casse/casse_myrcharn.gif

I prefer Myrcharn... terribly cheap, they are perfect one way suicide weapon, just let them ride behindenemy line, charge and forget... don't worry if they are dead... they are intended to be primitive suicide troopers :laugh4:

Note: I really fond of their usefulness in my Casse campaign, having my line of Gaeroas and teceitos hold off those Aedui swordsmen, and let them suicide charge the back... surely a lot of them are dead, but in turns, it was more often turn the tide of battle in my favour...

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

i found the arabian light skirmisher cavalry surprisingly good for the money payed, as soon as i reached the recruitment zones where they are available and built level 3 or 4 goverments. so now when ever possible i always bring along 2 or 3 of these guys when figthing in the east. they make very good skirmishers that don't tire easy.



Definitely :yes: they are good skirmishers, and have a decent charge and melee capacity even after that. Very useful in any army that needs some cavalry support.

[Unintended BM]

On my Baktria game, I've noticed that just about everything in the east is surprisingly good. Most of the light infantry have axes, and as long as you have an armored unit to draw their fire, you can beat the crap out of horse archers with those guys too. Plus, those persian archer spearman are amazing. Get some slingers to go along with them, and maybe a few bodyguards and pikemen to draw arrow fire and some light infantry to possibly flank, and you can take down mostly anything.

[Fedor]

Units I like:

Levy Pikemen: Among the most cost-effective units in the game, they'll reliably grind down AI-controlled Spartans and Gaesatae if you're at all careful with facing, terrain, and positioning. My pike boys have whupped up on charging heavy cavalry, chased down and slaughtered skirmishers, put the beat down on Roman you-name-its ... why upgrade when the lowest is already so good? Even in an AI-controlled army, they can put some real hurt on - and how many units at the price can you say that for?

Levy Hoplites: A scrappy little unit that I have a soft spot for. Cheap, readily available in a broad region, and surprisingly acceptable for medium-intensity fighting. They'll break if you abuse them, but that just make you a more careful general.

Scythian Horse-Archers: Wow, just wow. I got an introduction to them when my men started dying to arrow fire from a unit so far away that I couldn't even see its name. It's worth going half-way around the world just to get these guys into your army. Ridiculously low maintenance for non-nomad factions; totally overpowered for anyone with a decent income.

Scythian Foot-Archers: I'm playing a Macedonia, I bribed a Crimean city, and all of a sudden I can recruit archers that can kill more men per battle than Cretans, at greater range, and for less maintenance. You know a unit breaks any notion of faction historical balance when you feel the need to set up a new house rule in the middle of a VH/H game.

Imannae: Cheap and therefore numerous, which - together with solid stats and great stamina - means very acceptable killing power whether in melee or at range. MVP of my early Casse game.


Units I don't like:

Galatian Shortswordsmen and a bunch of similar units: Require to much TLC to be useful. Especially for the price.

Artillery: Madly overpriced in EB, too slow to keep up, and basically a good way to have one army for the price of two.

Ships: Again, overpriced. In EB, you're tempted to just scurry from port to port with your beaten-up (and thus cheaper) transports, a tactic that only a landlubber could love.

[ARCHIPPOS]

Units I don't like:

Galatian Shortswordsmen and a bunch of similar units: Require to much TLC to be useful. Especially for the price.

Artillery: Madly overpriced in EB, too slow to keep up, and basically a good way to have one army for the price of two.

Ships: Again, overpriced. In EB, you're tempted to just scurry from port to port with your beaten-up (and thus cheaper) transports, a tactic that only a landlubber could love.

Ships are overpriced because you can't use them creatively, because you have no tactical control over them.Agreed with everything else you said with the exception (of skythian foot-archers i have no experience ) and galatian shortswordmen. I find them highly useful, cheap choppers and slashers. They're ok :yes:

btw Imanae i have never used when playing as Casse. I prefer to use shortswordmen supported by slingers as missile troops...

[Poulp']

Scythian Horse-Archers: Wow, just wow. I got an introduction to them when my men started dying to arrow fire from a unit so far away that I couldn't even see its name. It's worth going half-way around the world just to get these guys into your army. Ridiculously low maintenance for non-nomad factions; totally overpowered for anyone with a decent income.


Scythians, eastern slingers and Caucasians archers are the only reason I managed to repel the Arche Seleukia when I was playing Hayasdan.
Plus a good mountain slpoe and a charge downhill from my FM, that is.

[athanaric]

Scythian Foot-Archers: I'm playing a Macedonia, I bribed a Crimean city, and all of a sudden I can recruit archers that can kill more men per battle than Cretans, at greater range, and for less maintenance.
Cretans have bigger range. I don't know why, but they do (only a difference of three meters, though).



Imannae: Cheap and therefore numerous, which - together with solid stats and great stamina - means very acceptable killing power whether in melee or at range. MVP of my early Casse game.
Yup, good unit. Even better though is their Germanic counterpart,which is only available for Swêboz.

[Andronikos]

Yup, good unit. Even better though is their Germanic counterpart,which is only available for Swêboz.

Which one is that?

[seienchin]

Units I like:

Levy Pikemen: Among the most cost-effective units in the game, they'll reliably grind down AI-controlled Spartans and Gaesatae if you're at all careful with facing, terrain, and positioning. My pike boys have whupped up on charging heavy cavalry, chased down and slaughtered skirmishers, put the beat down on Roman you-name-its ... why upgrade when the lowest is already so good? Even in an AI-controlled army, they can put some real hurt on - and how many units at the price can you say that for?

Levy Hoplites: A scrappy little unit that I have a soft spot for. Cheap, readily available in a broad region, and surprisingly acceptable for medium-intensity fighting. They'll break if you abuse them, but that just make you a more careful general.

Units I don't like:

Galatian Shortswordsmen and a bunch of similar units: Require to much TLC to be useful. Especially for the price.

Artillery: Madly overpriced in EB, too slow to keep up, and basically a good way to have one army for the price of two.

Ships: Again, overpriced. In EB, you're tempted to just scurry from port to port with your beaten-up (and thus cheaper) transports, a tactic that only a landlubber could love.
I agree with some of your points. Levy pikemen are incredible overpowered, but on the other hand every phalanx is. The levy hoplites on the other hand are really good. Most times these guys never rout in my games. It drove me crazy charching them with gesatae, botoras and skirmisher cavallery and they didnt rout...
Galatian Swordsmen I find really usefull, they are cheap, make damage, rarely rout and drop like flies. A perfect unit for buying before battles and use them as cannon fodder. Artillery in EB is of course completly useless, which is kind of sad, because the Ki builds them sometimes and makes there armies even weaker.
Ships on the other hand are a great possibility to waste your money^^. Anyway In EB Athens alone cant afford one trieme unit, which is strange.

The unit I dislike the most are the celtic archers. They are the worst unit in the game.

[ARCHIPPOS]

The unit I dislike the most are the celtic archers. They are the worst unit in the game.

They can be used in missile duels against celtic slingers because they have longer range. In my Casse campaign i had my 3 units of veteran slingers battle it out with two celtic archer units. My boys prevailed but at a terrible cost (depleted to 1/2 or 1/3). Ever since i keep a unit or two of mercenary archers for achieving anti-missile superiority. Context is very important in EB. Troops that would be universaly useless and crappy might find some use in one specific theatre...

[mrjade06]

the best in my opinion and most useful unit that is surprisingly good is just the plain old slingers. I always try and keep 2 of these units and by mid game they are ranked up and just pure deadly...almost no upkeep and are so useful for taking out cavalry, gaesatae, spartans, and weakening FMs bodyguard units. Get them on a flank of a phalanx and they will just unleash and annihilate them. About the only thing they are bad against is steppe cavalry which I found out the hard way playing as Baktria...an extremely good cheap unit. Another is the Akontistai or similar unit. Cheap and can do some serious bang for their buck against everything and anything. Have a unit or two of these i your army and elephants dont worry you at all.

Its hard for me to name one surprisingly bad unit as I find tactical use for most of them...but if I had to it would be the Thureophoroi even though I still use it quite often. Doesnt really do anything exceptionally well...would rather have galatian short-swordsmen, eastern axemen, georgian medium infantry or other like units instead. Another two along the same lines is the Ekdromoi Hoplitai and the Iphikratous Hoplitai. I use both, but they are not very effective against any unit that throws javelins before there good. About there only purpose is wrapping around a phalanx...if your opponent uses one...

[athanaric]

They can be used in missile duels against celtic slingers because they have longer range. .

No, their range is inferior to the slingers (Sotaroas 143 m, Iaosatae 162m). However archers generally tend to pwn slingers because of higher attack.
Also, Sotaroas have a spear, which makes them almost useful in melee. Whereas Toxotai only have a knife, rendering them the true most useless unit.



Which one is that?
Jugunðiz. Almost the same stats but somehow a tighter formation and a better shield.

[Andronikos]

Also, Sotaroas have a spear, which makes them almost useful in melee. Whereas Toxotai only have a knife, rendering them the true most useless unit.

QFT, their spears can do some damage, especially to flanking cavalry. They are best used to lower enemy's morale with fire attack, so that infantry charge can lead to instant rout, especially if you have some scary (read: naked) units.

[Poulp']

Cretans have bigger range. I don't know why, but they do (only a difference of three meters, though).

Who has the longest range, or who is the stronger is not the point here.
Cretans are trained in 3 areas on the whole map; Caucasians are trained at home (Hay), from a much lower MIC, and are much cheaper (2 1/2 Caucasians for 1 Cretans).

Those shepherds saved the kingdom from the AS.

Plus, deploy Caucasian archers at the top of a hill and they'll outshoot many other archers.

[antisocialmunky]

Some Notes:
-Caucasian Archers are really expendable. They'll lose missile duels but do enough damage.
-Cretan Archers are really good light infantry even with no chevrons. I HAVE NO IDEA HOW PEOPLE KEEP KILLING MY GENERAL WITH THEM. -_-' Maybe because everyone else is tried and they only JUST ran out of arrows and are freshly killing everything.
-There are 2 version of Cretan Archers. The Mercs from Crete and the KH ones. The Mercs have better stats.

[athanaric]

Who has the longest range, or who is the stronger is not the point here.
Cretans are trained in 3 areas on the whole map; Caucasians are trained at home (Hay), from a much lower MIC, and are much cheaper (2 1/2 Caucasians for 1 Cretans).
That's true, however people keep confusing stats here, perhaps due to the fact that they are surprised by the efficiency of some cheap units and overestimate their strengths. Caucasian Archers being recruitable from MIC level 1 makes them one of the must-have level 1 units.



Plus, deploy Caucasian archers at the top of a hill and they'll outshoot many other archers.
Anybody can do that. There was a battle where the Romans stood on a hill and could chuck their javelins at the (bow-wielding) Parthians, who had reasons to not find this amusing.

[WinsingtonIII]

-Cretan Archers are really good light infantry even with no chevrons. I HAVE NO IDEA HOW PEOPLE KEEP KILLING MY GENERAL WITH THEM. -_-' Maybe because everyone else is tried and they only JUST ran out of arrows and are freshly killing everything

This is very true. In my Epeiros campaign, I've had to throw these guys into melee multiple times, and in these situations they consistently are the unit that brings down the enemy general. It's like they're a magnet for suicidal AI generals. You very well may be right that it is because they are still "fresh" or "warmed up" when every other unit on the field is "very tired" or "exhausted"

[ARCHIPPOS]

I have to be at the verge of losing the battle to throw the cretan archers into melee... i am always very protective of them. I see them as a kind of investment. Any alive cretan represents a multitude of dead opponents in future campaigns.Or are you guys referring to multiplayer battles ???

[Ca Putt]

I think that's true for most archer unit with mentionable melee equipment. for me it's the germanic archer, not because they are particulary good at anything but because they are trained where nobody cares to ware armor :D and a large bunch of fresh high cevron dudes with pointy sticks are a force to be reconed with when everybody is totally exhausted. Everywhere else one would see how crappy they are^^

[WinsingtonIII]

I have to be at the verge of losing the battle to throw the cretan archers into melee... i am always very protective of them. I see them as a kind of investment. Any alive cretan represents a multitude of dead opponents in future campaigns.Or are you guys referring to multiplayer battles ???

ASM was referring to multiplayer battles I believe. I was referring to my Epeiros campaign, but I've only really thrown them into melee 3 times, and it was in situations where it was necessary to win the battle. But it's just strange because every time I threw them into melee, they performed really quite well and killed the enemy general, which just surprised me because they only carry low-lethality short swords as a secondary. Not exactly a great anti-cav weapon. I would expect them to fare well in melee against light infantry or even as flankers against heavy infantry, but I was surprised that they did well against heavy cavalry.

[vartan]

ASM was referring to multiplayer battles I believe. I was referring to my Epeiros campaign, but I've only really thrown them into melee 3 times, and it was in situations where it was necessary to win the battle. But it's just strange because every time I threw them into melee, they performed really quite well and killed the enemy general, which just surprised me because they only carry low-lethality short swords as a secondary. Not exactly a great anti-cav weapon. I would expect them to fare well in melee against light infantry or even as flankers against heavy infantry, but I was surprised that they did well against heavy cavalry.
They probably stabbed the cav to death o_O Kretans must be deadly in the slums.

[WinsingtonIII]

They probably stabbed the cav to death o_O Kretans must be deadly in the slums.

Haha it's a little known fact that Crete was the Compton of the ancient world.

[Tiberius]

Scythians, eastern slingers and Caucasians archers are the only reason I managed to repel the Arche Seleukia when I was playing Hayasdan.
Plus a good mountain slpoe and a charge downhill from my FM, that is.

Caucasian archers are simply fantastic, I'm 20 years into a VH/VH Armenian campaign because of them.

[seienchin]

Yeah because VH has no effect on the efficieny of your arrows...

[vartan]

Caucasian archers are simply fantastic, I'm 20 years into a VH/VH Armenian campaign because of them.
Lucky! I play Hai as M/M, or H/M, but I never increased to VH/VH! Must be crazy. What exe you use?

Yeah because VH has no effect on the efficieny of your arrows...
Exactly, minus the super defense that enemy has, thus making them less efficient, as in less kills.

[seienchin]

Lucky! I play Hai as M/M, or H/M, but I never increased to VH/VH! Must be crazy. What exe you use?

Exactly, minus the super defense that enemy has, thus making them less efficient, as in less kills.
What?
You know that the increased defence skill in VH has no effect on blocking arrows or atacks from behind.
Most player on VH just use archers and cavallery from behind and think they are hardcore, but in that case the only difference to m is a little better morale of the enemy.
I personally dislike VH for that , because it encourages players to fight with unhistorical armies.

[athanaric]

I personally dislike VH for that , because it encourages players to fight with unhistorical armies.
That.

Personally, I see this as the most disappointing aspect of TW games: The complete lack of a increasingly difficult battle AI, which was "made up for" with a cheat system of the AI getting better stats.

VH battles make the game completely ahistorical. You can rationalize money boni, but there is no such thing in the real world as arbitrarily increased stats.

[Ludens]

Caucasian archers are simply fantastic, I'm 20 years into a VH/VH Armenian campaign because of them.

Welcome to the .Org, and to EB.
~:wave:

[antisocialmunky]

The Caucasian Spearman are also quite good at killing things at river crossings.

[vartan]

The Caucasian Spearman are also quite good at killing things at river crossings.
That's why the rest of the soldiers should swim across the river!!!

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.net/pics/Info/eastern_infantry_georgian_swordsmen_INFO.jpg

I've used these fellows in my war with AS, in which they excel as both flankers and phalanxs-pindowners.
I sure didn't expect this from eastern infantry, given that most eastern infantry is just plain crap. :idea2:

[Fluvius Camillus]

http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.net/pics/Info/eastern_infantry_georgian_swordsmen_INFO.jpg

I've used these fellows in my war with AS, in which they excel as both flankers and phalanxs-pindowners.
I sure didn't expect this from eastern infantry, given that most eastern infantry is just plain crap. :idea2:

You must be referring to Nomadic infantry, or RTW Eastern infantry.

EB eastern infantry is often marked here as surprisingly good! Examples are Eastern Axemen, Baktrian Light Infantry and quite some more!

~Fluvius

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

You must be referring to Nomadic infantry, or RTW Eastern infantry.

EB eastern infantry is often marked here as surprisingly good! Examples are Eastern Axemen, Baktrian Light Infantry and quite some more!

~Fluvius

Well, I don't use eastern infantry that very often so you might be right, though one have to use Eastern Axemen in flanking only IMO. And by "crap" I of course mean in comparison to western infantry. :sweatdrop:

[Dram]

Lustonann's Caetrannan are one of the best overall infantry. Also avaliable as regional troops to Celtic nations.

If you look at other AP units you'll generally notice that they have less base damage than their equivalent non-AP sword unit. Eg. Axe and Club units have low base. Iberians seem to be the exception - their falcata's do pretty much the same damage as their Celtic neighbours but keep the AP.

So with the Caetrann you've got 100 men with AP falcatas, they carry 6 javelins each, theyve got very good stamina, move quickly and have 5 armour which is actually on the middle range of armour values considering the region. Only costs 350 upkeep. The 6 javelins allow them to act as skirmishers or throw them over walls in sieges and the swords work well against regular troops but rape armoured troops too. Super versatile :)

[athanaric]

Lustonann's Caetrannan are one of the best overall infantry. Also avaliable as regional troops to Celtic nations.

If you look at other AP units you'll generally notice that they have less base damage than their equivalent non-AP sword unit. Eg. Axe and Club units have low base. Iberians seem to be the exception - their falcatas do pretty much the same damage as their Celtic neighbours but keep the AP.
At the price of a very low lethality.

Compare:

Knife - 0.04
Average short sword - 0.1
Falcata - 0.11
Gladius - 0.13
Club - 0.14
Axe - 0.165
Celtic longsword - 0.225
Falx - 0.26
Crazy two-handed weapon - 0.285

etc.

This balances out attack, and you will find that the Celtic "equivalent" (though there is no direct one) of Caetrannan are more effective vs unarmoured troops.
Though I do agree that having this many javelins at a decent range is a handy thing.

[Dram]

Thanks for pointing that out. I had always wondered why one sword unit would inflict heavy defeat on another unit with almost identical stats, but different types of swords.

I only just found out about lethality today - I have read numerous guides and even the units.txt itself says that those numbers are referring to the delay between attacks in 1/10ths of a second. I always read it as 0.04 meant the knife would be used to stab more quickly while a two handed weapon would have a longer delay between swings. It's really quite ridiculous that even the data files themselves contain incorrect information.

[athanaric]

I only just found out about lethality today - I have read numerous guides and even the units.txt itself says that those numbers are referring to the delay between attacks in 1/10ths of a second. I always read it as 0.04 meant the knife would be used to stab more quickly while a two handed weapon would have a longer delay between swings. It's really quite ridiculous that even the data files themselves contain incorrect information.
Lethality indicates the likelyhood that a hit will be deadly. Attack delay is a different value, and can be found in the EDU as well. Example:

;291
type celtic cavalry remimairepos
dictionary celtic_cavalry_remimairepos ; Remi Mairepos
category cavalry
class heavy
voice_type General_1
soldier celtic_cavalry_brihentin_remimairepos_lavotuxri_marhathegnoz, 25, 0, 1
mount heavy horse
mount_effect elephant -4, chariot +2
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy, mercenary_unit
formation 1.5, 4, 3, 6, 4, square
stat_health 1, 1
stat_pri 5, 30, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 160 ,0.33
stat_pri_attr ap
stat_sec 11, 15, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, slashing, sword, 0 ,0.225
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 11, 13, 2, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 4
stat_ground 0, 0, -3, -1
stat_mental 16, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 4034, 1009, 95, 444, 4034
ownership gauls, scythia, britons, slave

Green indicates attack delay, red lethality. The higher the delay number, the slower is the attack frequency (as opposed to lethality where higher is better). This unit has an underhand lance with a high lethality, but a low attack frequency and attack value. The secondary weapon, a longsword, doesn't suffer from delay.

[Dram]

Cheers man, I would never of worked that out myself.

[Ludens]

I only just found out about lethality today - I have read numerous guides and even the units.txt itself says that those numbers are referring to the delay between attacks in 1/10ths of a second. I always read it as 0.04 meant the knife would be used to stab more quickly while a two handed weapon would have a longer delay between swings. It's really quite ridiculous that even the data files themselves contain incorrect information.

IIRC the lethality parameter was not added until R:TW 1.2: the documentation in the unit file is still for the old 1.0 data format.

[Moosemanmoo]

Today I lost almost two units of Hastati to some Peltastai on a wall, the defenders had no exp whilst mine had 3 chevrons
Usually they perform well but I have nearly lost all faith in them

So were the Peltastai surprisingly good or were my Hastati surprisingly bad?

[vartan]

Today I lost almost two units of Hastati to some Peltastai on a wall, the defenders had no exp whilst mine had 3 chevrons
Usually they perform well but I have nearly lost all faith in them

So were the Peltastai surprisingly good or were my Hastati surprisingly bad?
Both. Were your Hastati (either of them) on guard mode by any chance?