Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition

[Cute Wolf]

i think the peltastai must made a lot of Romaioi kebabs there, don't forget thet they can still fire javelins when fighting on walls... X)

next time, use principes.... or much better.... evocatae... (or hire a tindanotae)

[WinsingtonIII]

i think the peltastai must made a lot of Romaioi kebabs there, don't forget thet they can still fire javelins when fighting on walls... X)

Yeah, javelin volleys thrown from on top of walls to enemies down below are quite devestating.

[Moosemanmoo]

I lost only a few from javelins prior to the actual fight, I took the Hastati off guard mode but they soon became exhausted, all Peltastai never even got to winded 0.0
oh well, they're dead now lol

[vartan]

I lost only a few from javelins prior to the actual fight, I took the Hastati off guard mode but they soon became exhausted, all Peltastai never even got to winded 0.0
oh well, they're dead now lol
Perhaps Pletastai have more stamina than Hastati.

[WinsingtonIII]

I lost only a few from javelins prior to the actual fight, I took the Hastati off guard mode but they soon became exhausted, all Peltastai never even got to winded 0.0
oh well, they're dead now lol

Well, Peltastai do have better stamina than Hastati (Very Hardy instead of Hardy), which I guess explains why they stayed fresh for so long. But it's still strange that they could beat two units of Hastati on walls. They do have a slightly higher lethality sword than Camillian Hastati and one more armor, but overall they have less defense and they should have lost in a melee (especially against two experienced units). Were they being commanded by an extremely good general that would give them bonuses/were you playing on a battle difficulty above medium?

[vartan]

Well, Peltastai do have better stamina than Hastati (Very Hardy instead of Hardy), which I guess explains why they stayed fresh for so long. But it's still strange that they could beat two units of Hastati on walls. They do have a slightly higher lethality sword than Camillian Hastati and one more armor, but overall they have less defense and they should have lost in a melee (especially against two experienced units). Were they being commanded by an extremely good general that would give them bonuses/were you playing on a battle difficulty above medium?
Not just that. The peltastai does not face both hastati at the same time. This is on a wall, not on the field. Peltastai get a tactical bonus that way.
They are the clear favourites.

[Moosemanmoo]

Well, Peltastai do have better stamina than Hastati (Very Hardy instead of Hardy), which I guess explains why they stayed fresh for so long. But it's still strange that they could beat two units of Hastati on walls. They do have a slightly higher lethality sword than Camillian Hastati and one more armor, but overall they have less defense and they should have lost in a melee (especially against two experienced units). Were they being commanded by an extremely good general that would give them bonuses/were you playing on a battle difficulty above medium?

My General had 4 stars and an array of respectable traits etc, his (being an AI general) had more stars but there wasn't much between them
Battle difficulty on meduim

From what I saw the Hastati weren't landing their strikes, most of the Peltasts fell to their deaths rather than being cut down

[WinsingtonIII]

Not just that. The peltastai does not face both hastati at the same time. This is on a wall, not on the field. Peltastai get a tactical bonus that way.
They are the clear favourites.

Depends what happened. You're assuming that both Hastati units were climbing up the same ladder/tower to engage the Peltastai frontally one at a time. If they were coming from the side they engage the Peltasts in a much more equal manner. But I'm guessing you're right and this is probably why they lost the fight.

[vartan]

Depends what happened. You're assuming that both Hastati units were climbing up the same ladder/tower to engage the Peltastai frontally one at a time. If they were coming from the side they engage the Peltasts in a much more equal manner. But I'm guessing you're right and this is probably why they lost the fight.
They could have used 60 ladders for all I care. Fact is they couldn't have been surrounded. The only way the Peltastai can be at a tactical disadvantage is if they were facing opposition that had come up ladders from either side of the Peltastai. Even in this case, the Peltastai can easily maneuver to one side, in order to face only one unit of Hastati. The wall gives the Peltastai a good force multiplier.

[WinsingtonIII]

You're assuming the AI would maneuver to one side... It's pretty easy to pin an AI controlled unit on a wall with two units, one coming from each side, and it's a pretty effective way of quickly routing a unit (unless they're elite). But in this case you're probably right that this did not happen. If it did happen the Peltasts would have easily lost.

[vartan]

You're assuming the AI would maneuver to one side... It's pretty easy to pin an AI controlled unit on a wall with two units, one coming from each side, and it's a pretty effective way of quickly routing a unit (unless they're elite). But in this case you're probably right that this did not happen. If it did happen the Peltasts would have easily lost.
RTW needs drop in battles LOL. Then NOBODY WOULD WIN CAMPAIGN HAHA!

[WinsingtonIII]

RTW needs drop in battles LOL. Then NOBODY WOULD WIN CAMPAIGN HAHA!

haha there certainly would be no more of the "sally forth but instead just sit on the walls shooting the enemy with arrows" exploit

[vartan]

haha there certainly would be no more of the "sally forth but instead just sit on the walls shooting the enemy with arrows" exploit
Not much of an exploit since people really would go on the walls and fire at the enemy back in the day. Why shouldn't they? They have every right to defend their homeland!

[Intranetusa]

Why are swords/other weapons so much more lethal than spears?
Hoplites, most spearmen, and camillian/polybian triari units only have a lethality of .13 even the elite hellenic spearmen only have .13 lethality ...whereas some other weapons almost double the lethality... I mean swords are almost double the lethality, and heavy weapons are triple the lethality.

It's annoying when 1 unit of thracian troops equipped with flaxes or 1 unit of Goldolics with hammers rips through 2-3 of my "elite" triari units or heavy hellenic spearmen.

[WinsingtonIII]

Not much of an exploit since people really would go on the walls and fire at the enemy back in the day. Why shouldn't they? They have every right to defend their homeland!

Ah but the exploit is the fact that sometimes the AI decides to sit there taking fire, doing nothing, instead of running for cover. That doesn't sound like something people would do back in the day. And if they did, they probably didn't live long enough to pass on the idea to their descendents.

[vartan]

Why are swords/other weapons so much more lethal than spears?
Hoplites, most spearmen, and camillian/polybian triari units only have a lethality of .13 even the elite hellenic spearmen only have .13 lethality ...whereas some other weapons almost double the lethality... I mean swords are almost double the lethality, and heavy weapons are triple the lethality.

It's annoying when 1 unit of thracian troops equipped with flaxes or 1 unit of Goldolics with hammers rips through 2-3 of my "elite" triari units or heavy hellenic spearmen.
Open a few books on history. I'm talking military history. The sword kills. Let me repeat. The sword KILLS. Check this:

The impact energy in foot-pounds from an underhand spear: 13.5. From a gladius being thrust: 21.3. From a cutting axe: 70.5 (note the sudden jump). From an overhand spear: 70.8 (very similar to cutting axe). A penetrating axe? 77.5.

Now...a gladius used in a hacking motion? 101 foot-pounds. Very similar to a stone mace at 101.3 fpds.

To top it all off, most spearmen used dense formations and tended to present the enemy with a wall of spear and shield. This did not give much maneuverability and striking a fatal blow wasn't likely (and this is what lethality represents in the engine: how likely a hit is to be fatal). The gladius as used by the Romans (and many swordsmen around the world alike) was employed differently. Each man had several square yards in which to work in. It was a matter of selecting your target and attacking away. This looser formation required more discipline of course, and the Romans showed that discipline. The same source from which the data comes from also states that "in the hands of the highly trained Roman legionnaire, the sword became the most deadly of all weapons used by ancient armies, and it killed more soldiers than any other weapon in history until the invention of the gun" (Gabriel 26).

Gabriel, Richard A. Empires at War: a Chronological Encyclopedia. Vol. 1. Westport, Conn.: Greenwood, 2005.

P.S. Stuart, if you're talking about the AI, then of course. The AI has no true intelligence. Our guys at the comp. sci. department are still working on it...

[Duguntz]

Neeto! That's very interesting Vartan! Her's a baloon... err, I don't find it... That'll do (baloon) :)

[WinsingtonIII]

P.S. Stuart, if you're talking about the AI, then of course. The AI has no true intelligence. Our guys at the comp. sci. department are still working on it...

What else would I be talking about? To have an exploit you have to be exploiting something, in this case the stupidity of the AI when it doesn't have siege equipment. I certainly wasn't saying putting ranged units on walls was an exploit in the first place.

BTW, Vartan, why would a hacking motion with a penetrating ax contain less foot-pounds of force then a hacking gladius? It does not seem to be like the mass of a one-handed ax would be sufficiently less than a gladius, and if they are both being swung with the same acceleration (considering Force = mass x acceleration), why would there be less force behind the blow of the ax?

[Dram]

Open a few books on history. I'm talking military history. The sword kills. Let me repeat. The sword KILLS. Check this:

The impact energy in foot-pounds from an underhand spear: 13.5. From a gladius being thrust: 21.3. From a cutting axe: 70.5 (note the sudden jump). From an overhand spear: 70.8 (very similar to cutting axe). A penetrating axe? 77.5.

Now...a gladius used in a hacking motion? 101 foot-pounds. Very similar to a stone mace at 101.3 fpds.

To top it all off, most spearmen used dense formations and tended to present the enemy with a wall of spear and shield. This did not give much maneuverability and striking a fatal blow wasn't likely (and this is what lethality represents in the engine: how likely a hit is to be fatal). The gladius as used by the Romans (and many swordsmen around the world alike) was employed differently. Each man had several square yards in which to work in. It was a matter of selecting your target and attacking away. This looser formation required more discipline of course, and the Romans showed that discipline. The same source from which the data comes from also states that "in the hands of the highly trained Roman legionnaire, the sword became the most deadly of all weapons used by ancient armies, and it killed more soldiers than any other weapon in history until the invention of the gun" (Gabriel 26).

Gabriel, Richard A. Empires at War: a Chronological Encyclopedia. Vol. 1. Westport, Conn.: Greenwood, 2005.

P.S. Stuart, if you're talking about the AI, then of course. The AI has no true intelligence. Our guys at the comp. sci. department are still working on it...

the issue with lethality in game is that theres a huge difference in killing power when comparing a 0.225 sword unit and a 0.13 sword unit - the two most common lethalities for swords. if you do some custom battles pitting a basic 0.225 sword unit such as south gallic swords (botroas) against much more expensive and better equipped infantry with lower lethality weapons the boatroas will come out on top. for me it kind of ruins things a bit because i basically dont feel like recruiting most of the units i potentially could. i was quite excited about the idea of capturing the boii city so i could train boii swordsmen for example, but found later they didnt measure up due to their lethality.

i dont have a detailed grasp of history, but i would think that using a large sword in battle and using in a way that produces greater lethality would produce other drawbacks. for example one of the unit descriptions describes the gallic longsword as being 'twirled around above the head to buiild momentum, allowing it to crush armor'. i cant imagine a whole unit of men doing this at the same time while managing to stay in a closely packed formation... they'd be chopping each other to bits accidently twirling around their swords like that. but theres a lot of 0.225 longsword units that fight in the same density as the roman legions. plus, surely they couldent swing their swords as frequently as someone wielding a shortsword, or a roman thrusting using a gladius. yet they all swing at the same speed in game. so at the moment the 0.225 sword units are getting all the advantages of their weapon and none of the drawbacks.

[vartan]

BTW, Vartan, why would a hacking motion with a penetrating ax contain less foot-pounds of force then a hacking gladius? It does not seem to be like the mass of a one-handed ax would be sufficiently less than a gladius, and if they are both being swung with the same acceleration (considering Force = mass x acceleration), why would there be less force behind the blow of the ax?
I will give Stuart and Dram a hint: consider the following characteristics of weapons.

Consider weight.
Consider speed (speed of attack in, say, feet per second).
Consider the impact area (inches).
Consider the area of the wound (inches).

Finally, all these together come together to form the impact energy in fpds (foot-pounds).

As for the math...LOL don't ask. :laugh4: I just got done bombing a math final and the last thing I want to be is depressed because I'm reminiscing a subject I do NOT want to recall.

[WinsingtonIII]

I guess a gladius, being made mostly of metal, might be heavier than most one-handed axes, since they are made mostly of wood with only the metal head. That could explain the difference in force.

[vartan]

I guess a gladius, being made mostly of metal, might be heavier than most one-handed axes, since they are made mostly of wood with only the metal head. That could explain the difference in force.
A penetrating axe, weighing in at 2.2 lbs, attacking at a speed of 48 feet per second, with an impact area of 0.5 inches (of course...as it's a PENETRATING axe!), with a wound area of 1.75 inches, yields an impact energy of 77.5 foot-pounds.
A gladius, weighing in at 1.8 lbs, hacking at 60 feet per second (as it weighs less), with an impact area of 1.5 inches, and a wound area of 4 inches, yields an impact energy of 101 foot-pounds.
Ouch.

[Duguntz]

and then they had to change the foot-pound for foot-tons, when chuck norris came to the world...

[Cute Wolf]

well, at least gladius must have somewhat higher lethality then... or maybe sightly higher lethality than normal shortswords, and sightly higher damage.... *back to doing something again*

[Julianus]

To me all greek low-end troops are surprisingly good.
Once attacked by a 3/4 stack Roman army consists of Hastati, Principle, Triarii and Samnite Infantry, etc, and led by their consul with a huge bodyguard, almost 100 horses.
While as Epeiros I had about only 4 Hoplitai Haploi, 2 Phyletichoi Illyrioi, 2 Akontistai, 1 Sphendonetai, and led by a 1-star general, the only advantage of mine is I've got a little more cavalry, 1 Illyrioi Hippeis and 1 Hippeis Tarantinoi but both of them only half strength, so if you count the horse heads, I don't really have much more than them.
Since my infantry are so heavily outnumbered and outclassed by the Romaioi, I had to deploy them rather thin, and brought up the 2 Akontistai, even Sphendonetai to help hold the line. But I carefully kept a solid line, with every unit protected by adjacent friend units, only the 2 Hoplitai Haploi deployed on the extreme left and right flank got half surrounded by the Romans, which could not be helped, but they got assistance from the Akontistai and Sphendonetai after they spent all their ammo.
It took me quite some time to dispose of the Roman consul because of his large bodyguard, and when I was able to turn back and charge into the rear of the Roman legionaries, all my infantry troops had lost more than half their men and hardly pressed by the Romans, but all held their ground well, morale steady including the skirmishers while the Romans got tired even exhausted.
Hence I got a heroic victory I didn't look forward to. Ah of course, the battle difficulty level was Medium.

[vartan]

Battle difficulty was as it should have been: Medium. Your maneuvering proved decisive. Good thing the Romans failed to defend their cavalry.

[Dram]

Just noticed the Babylonian spearmen have 0.165 lethality AP maces as their secondary weapon, same weapon the cataphracts use as their sidearm. They absolutely kick ass! Just remember to alt-click so they use the mace instead of the crappy spear!

[Silence Hunter]

Yea, these Babylonian spearmen are perfect anti-cataphract (or other heavy cav) troops. They have both spear and AP mace - extremely nasty combination when opposing heavy cavalry. As Hayasdan I used to put them on the left flank, where the enemy cataphract and general charge was expected and these guys made mince meat of them numerous times.

[Grade_A_Beef]

I love those babylonian speamen as well. The biggest gripe I have with them however is their limited recruitment (Seleukia, Babylon, and that province at the mouth of the Tigris,) and their god awful MIC. A level 4 MIC is pretty demanding, not to mention that the Shipri Tukul are only about as powerful as Thureophoroi.

It's a good thing they're common mercs in Persia, or I wouldn't use them much at all.....that said, they're probably the best anti-armor infantry unit you'll get if you play as Pahlava

[satalexton]

To me all greek low-end troops are surprisingly good.
Once attacked by a 3/4 stack Roman army consists of Hastati, Principle, Triarii and Samnite Infantry, etc, and led by their consul with a huge bodyguard, almost 100 horses.
While as Epeiros I had about only 4 Hoplitai Haploi, 2 Phyletichoi Illyrioi, 2 Akontistai, 1 Sphendonetai, and led by a 1-star general, the only advantage of mine is I've got a little more cavalry, 1 Illyrioi Hippeis and 1 Hippeis Tarantinoi but both of them only half strength, so if you count the horse heads, I don't really have much more than them.
Since my infantry are so heavily outnumbered and outclassed by the Romaioi, I had to deploy them rather thin, and brought up the 2 Akontistai, even Sphendonetai to help hold the line. But I carefully kept a solid line, with every unit protected by adjacent friend units, only the 2 Hoplitai Haploi deployed on the extreme left and right flank got half surrounded by the Romans, which could not be helped, but they got assistance from the Akontistai and Sphendonetai after they spent all their ammo.
It took me quite some time to dispose of the Roman consul because of his large bodyguard, and when I was able to turn back and charge into the rear of the Roman legionaries, all my infantry troops had lost more than half their men and hardly pressed by the Romans, but all held their ground well, morale steady including the skirmishers while the Romans got tired even exhausted.
Hence I got a heroic victory I didn't look forward to. Ah of course, the battle difficulty level was Medium.

My friend, you deserve a :balloon3: for being a heroic Romaioktonoi!

[athanaric]

Everyone knows about Batacorii, but here's a truly great unit that proved to be instrumental to my Swêboz campaigns, perhaps as much as Dugundiz, Iaosatae, and Leuce Epos:
The Gaisolitho Aljod. These guys have decent morale like Dugundiz (though 1 point less than Batacorii), a big shield and great javelin range like Batacorii, and more important - a huge recruitment area. For Suebi, they can be trained in all Celtic regions except for Ireland. Surprisingly resilient even in the face of Roman legions. Not to mention looking great (especially the Suebi variant - the Arverni one seriously needs baguettes for javelins).

Also, their "little brother" shouldn't go unnoticed - the Cemmeinarn (Briton Midland Spearmen) (second row), who have the same shield (and skin) and even better javelin range, though slightly inferior stats otherwise.
https://europabarbarorum.com/i/units/eleutheroi/germania/rebel_aljazgae.gifhttps://europabarbarorum.com/i/units/arverni/arverni_aljazgae.gifhttps://europabarbarorum.com/i/units/aedui/aedui_aljazgae.gifhttps://europabarbarorum.com/i/units/sweboz/sweboz_aljazgae.gif
https://europabarbarorum.com/i/units/casse/casse_cemmeinarn.gif

[Duguntz]

That's greeeat! what MIC do I have to built to get them? I got them only in my southern provinces... and I never got to used those guys properly

[athanaric]

Factional MIC level 3. Available in all Celtic/celticized provinces except for Ireland. Gauls can only recruit them in Germanic provinces.

http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.net/pics/Maps/celtic%20infantry%20aljazgae.jpg

[ertai1987]

Leuce Epos, I'm really fond of light cav and this one is simply the best, not only it has very good stamina and an excellent range for its javelin, but it can actually charge too. The only drawback is that it needs a high lvl MIC.

Tindanotae, I hired them as merceneries for the first time in my current Epeiros game, and I must say they are actually NOT overpriced. I don't usually play with elite units, because I don't like their low manpower and high cost, but that fear effect is...awesome.

[Fluvius Camillus]

Leuce Epos, I'm really fond of light cav and this one is simply the best, not only it has very good stamina and an excellent range for its javelin, but it can actually charge too. The only drawback is that it needs a high lvl MIC.

Tindanotae, I hired them as merceneries for the first time in my current Epeiros game, and I must say they are actually NOT overpriced. I don't usually play with elite units, because I don't like their low manpower and high cost, but that fear effect is...awesome.

1. Yes indeed, I barely make tactical use of the javelins but the charge is quite good, and these fast guys are great at chasing down routers!

2. I love elite units, but you are right Tindanotae are the AI's nightmare! If you buy them they will accompany you for a long time, because they don't die much. The fear effect is battle winning, just use them to charge the enemy in the rear of possible, you usally win then! Even the AI had some succes with them in my Seleukid game. I thougth I could pin the down using Pantodapoi Phalanghitai and then focus on the main battle. WRONG! They FRONTALLY slaughtered them, losing around 5 men. But after that it was AI tactics again, I had them routing after repeated BG charges. I got them as factional unit now in my Seleukid campaign.... Epeiros will tremble!

~Fluvius

[Dram]

leuce epos are amazing... great value, wide recruitment range and fast moving and great stamina, yet they ride medium mounts and have a great charge. i usually dont bother recruiting anything heavier!

[ertai1987]

plus, they have an interesting command sound, I sometimes catch myself mimicing a rather excited Conan yelling LUK...EEEEPOS! :D

[gamegeek2]

Necro. This is a great thread that deserves to be up, and is informing and important. It should also be added to the "list of tactical advice" thread.

[Cute Wolf]

I think all unit are allready mentioned gamegeek...

[WinsingtonIII]

I think all unit are allready mentioned gamegeek...

Probably true, but I still like the thread too.

Just to keep it going, I'll mention a unit that may or may not have been mentioned here many moons ago.

http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.net/pics/Info/arabian_skirmisher_tribal_levies_INFO.jpg

Bnei Shevet 'Arabim (Arabian Light Infantry)

They may be lightly armored, but these guys hold out surprisingly well in melee. They have quite decent morale (11), 200 men in a unit (on huge), are excellent skirmishers, and perhaps most importantly, they carry a spear as a secondary and are quite good with it. I'm consistently impressed with the performance these troops put up in melee, they hold out quite well and deal out pretty considerable casualties. They're particularly suited to guarding flanks because they can use the position to get some devestating flank volleys of javelins in on the enemy infantry and then receive cavalry charges with their spears if need be. Truly all around versatile troops, and I tend to recruit them whenever I'm in the area.

Realistically, Arabian and particularly Sabaen troops in general tend to put up a much better melee fight than expected considering their equipment. They often have quite high morale and resolve considering their cost and availability. For instance, Sabaen Levy Spears have 13 morale, which surprised me quite a bit when I first noticed.

[vartan]

Realistically, Arabian and particularly Sabaen troops in general tend to put up a much better melee fight than expected considering their equipment. They often have quite high morale and resolve considering their cost and availability. For instance, Sabaen Levy Spears have 13 morale, which surprised me quite a bit when I first noticed.
http://img2.pict.com/23/76/86/3596220/0/300/screenshot2b1.png (http://img2.pict.com/23/76/86/3596220/0/screenshot2b1.png)
Raised from the urban population of Sabaean society, these men, armed with spears and shields, are the bedrock of the Sabaean military machine.

You can say that again. These beasts of fury (:skull:) proved themselves in the infamous July 2009 EB Online Tournament, holding their ground against the Roman adversary in many 2v2 team battles online, giving the team enough stalling time to use their combined cavalry arm decisively.

[Moros]

http://img2.pict.com/23/76/86/3596220/0/300/screenshot2b1.png (http://img2.pict.com/23/76/86/3596220/0/screenshot2b1.png)
Raised from the urban population of Sabaean society, these men, armed with spears and shields, are the bedrock of the Sabaean military machine.

You can say that again. These beasts of fury (:skull:) proved themselves in the infamous July 2009 EB Online Tournament, holding their ground against the Roman adversary in many 2v2 team battles online, giving the team enough stalling time to use their combined cavalry arm decisively.
Cool.

[Cute Wolf]

too bad, Saby'n have good levy units, but their assilinmodara nobles is very - very crappy, except their morale of course... they are "surprisingly" bad units. (personally, I change them into sword-wielding bodyguard models one)

[plutoboyz]

https://europabarbarorum.com/i/units/saka/saka_horse_archer.gif

these dude are just amazing.

[vartan]

leuce epos are amazing... great value, wide recruitment range and fast moving and great stamina, yet they ride medium mounts and have a great charge. i usually dont bother recruiting anything heavier!
You mean these guys (http://europabarbarorum.wikia.com/wiki/Leuce_Epos_%28Gallic_Light_Cavalry%29)? They're bad*** IMO.

[Moros]

too bad, Saby'n have good levy units, but their assilinmodara nobles is very - very crappy, except their morale of course... they are "surprisingly" bad units. (personally, I change them into sword-wielding bodyguard models one)
I don't really understand why they are considered crappy. They are perhaps no match one on one for hellenistic heavy infantry, but one should expect that. They only wear leather padded jackets and a helmet so one can't expect them to go toe to toe with much more armoured troops. They however give you the ability to last longer against other units than you're lighter ones, so that you have more time and an easier time trying to use your superior tactics to win a battle. As with the Sabaeans it'll be your tactics that should get you to victory, not superior forces. It's the bodyguard unit you need to use to secure your gaps with or to use as an attacking force on the enemies weak spots. That's probably the problem with Saba', that they don't have much attacking/flanking/... units except for their bodyguards. In EB II however there'll be one such unit as there was a historically attested unit that played this role.

[Cute Wolf]

umm Moros, I think the Redsea axemen is an excellent flanking units for Sabyn, and their citizen spearmen (when it comes to hold), are more effective than their nobles for holding the line. It was good to have some strong units for the Sabyn :grin:

I said Assilinmoddara as crappy because they are supposed to be elites, but still die fast and don't kill fast...

[Moros]

The Red Sea axemen are strictly speaking not Sabaeans or part fo any other ancient Sayhad ethnicity. They are usefull and closeby regionals, falxmen for example aren't the Makedonian attacking forces either you know. In EB II the Sabaean will still be able to count on some axe wielding regionals as well, no worries.

The corresponding EBII unit of the nobles will remain about the same. Don't expect any really heavy Sabaean units in EBII, they didn't exist. However there'll be an increase in tactical possiblities for the Sabaeans when it comes to their infantry. Sadly it'll be at the cost of cavalry, as horses were only introduced most likely after our timeframe. But again some new but very exciting regionals shall easily fill that gap.

I'm revealing to much already... I need to leave some secrets for a preview...

[seienchin]

Cool. Finally a realistic saba. :)
EBII looks sooo promising to deliver a game as close as reality as it can get for a game.
On the other hand I cant imagine fighting only foot battles with the germanics. gauls or sabeans most of the game. ^^

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Only foot battles are the best. Why? Well you actually have a chance of losing.

[vartan]

Only foot battles are the best. Why? Well you actually have a chance of losing.
Unless you both have cav and you have the cav disadvantage.

[Moros]

Cool. Finally a realistic saba. :)
EBII looks sooo promising to deliver a game as close as reality as it can get for a game.
On the other hand I cant imagine fighting only foot battles with the germanics. gauls or sabeans most of the game. ^^
Th germanics and especially the gauls have acces to quite a few cavalry units. Of course the focus for both will be foot soldiers, just as Rome and most western civilizations. The Sabaeans will have to rely on mercenaries and regionals for cavalry though.

[athanaric]

I don't really understand why they are considered crappy. They are perhaps no match one on one for hellenistic heavy infantry, but one should expect that. They only wear leather padded jackets and a helmet so one can't expect them to go toe to toe with much more armoured troops. They however give you the ability to last longer against other units than you're lighter ones, so that you have more time and an easier time trying to use your superior tactics to win a battle. As with the Sabaeans it'll be your tactics that should get you to victory, not superior forces. It's the bodyguard unit you need to use to secure your gaps with or to use as an attacking force on the enemies weak spots. That's probably the problem with Saba', that they don't have much attacking/flanking/... units except for their bodyguards. In EB II however there'll be one such unit as there was a historically attested unit that played this role.
Actually, the Noble Infantry are probably my favourite Sabaean unit, and they are not crappy at all. Perhaps the only noble footsoldier unit that can chase down other infantry. All in all, they're quite similar to the Germanic Pikemen, with a weaker attack but higher versatility.

[gamegeek2]

AtB also promises to make Saba more realistic, and more competitive as well. The Nabatu will probably be the more capable faction unit-wise, in the end, but the Sabaeans look to have some good ones as well.

[athanaric]

https://europabarbarorum.com/i/units/lusotannan/ele_ibe_iabarannta.gif Iabarannta
Surprisingly nasty. The AI always deploys them in loose formation, making them cover the whole map, and cheerfully exploits all skirmisher related bugs of the RTW engine - the cavalry charge bug, the loose formation killer combat bug, the melee fire bug (actually an oversight), to name but a few. And unlike the default Lusotannan skirmishers (Iovamann), these guys are actually fierce in melee. Meaning the best counter is a disproportionate number of Kretan Archers, who should be focusing on other tasks. Almost identical and just as effective: Gaesamica.


https://europabarbarorum.com/i/units/lusotannan/ele_ibe_ilergeta.gif Milites Ilergetumhttps://img410.imageshack.us/img410/9807/iberianinfantryilergeta.jpg (https://img410.imageshack.us/i/iberianinfantryilergeta.jpg/)
Very useful for factions campaigning in Iberia, especially the Romans. A reliable unit with medium armour, lethal long swords, and soliferra. What more could you ask for?

[FlyingPig]

Hoplitai Haploi (sorry I'm new I don't know how to do pictures!)
Definitely the core to most armies for several reasons:

1. Upkeep - 200 per turn is an absolute bargain especially in the early game.

2. Arrow/Slinger Fodder - whilst their defence isnt amazing it is better than most other cheap melee units (lugoae, Caucasian spearman etc.) which makes them great at absorbing/wasting opponents arrows.

3. Recruitability - Hoplitai Haploi can be recruited in so many regions within the first level of barracks it is easy to replenish their numbers in the city you have just taken with them

[seienchin]

Dont forget, that they can hold any line.
Hoplitai Haploi or the parthian spearmen plus some light cavallery and the human player can beat nearly any AI Enemy. They are incredible.

[Captain Trek]

People in this thread have been complaining about elite units such as Spartans losing men to shitty units such as Akontistai, but I, for one, merely accept this as being the way the game (and real life) is...

I mean, shit, I once had a 36-man unit of single gold-chevron Mak bodyguards with Teir 1 armour and weapon upgrades lose about a third of their number to two untis of triple bronze chevron and Teir 1 armour upgrade KH FREED SLAVES! You see, I charged onto the slaves (which were defending a town square), then thought it'd be a good idea to have the bodyguards switch to their swords, at which point they proceeded to lose a ridiculous number of men. It just so happened that the game CTDed after that battle, so I had to fight it again... Once again, I found myself in a position where I could attack the two freed slave units with my general and did so, only this time I left them using their lances, just to see what would happen... This time, they blew through both units losing only one or two men...

The point? Elite units lose men to crappy units all the time in EB and if you can't learn to live with it, maybe EB (and TW games in general) are not for you... Indeed, I for one would be pleased as punch to have a unit of Spartans blow through Akonkistai losing only one guy, as I've lost far too many elite men to skirmishers (mostly Peltasti, which is more understandable, but also Akons as well) in my time playing EB (and TW games in general)...

For me, though, I agree that Hoplitai Hapoli are definitely a surpisingly good unit, but for me personally the untis that have impressed me the most have been Rorari, Hippies Thessalikoi and any and every low tier slinger unit.

For the slingers, I've found that Sphendonetai, Laosatae and Accensi all seem to do remarkably well on the battlefield, well able to rack up just as many if not more kills than even elite archers such as the Kretikoi and that their tendency to hit friendlies in the back has been a minor problem at best...

Then there are the Rorari... Call me crazy, but I love those little bastards... They make for a relatively cheap but none-the-less combat effective garrisons (perfect for brigands), are absolute masters at bogging down enemy cavalry and make wonderfully good flankers... Indeed, units similar to the Rorari, such as Thureophoroi, have impressed me overall, but it's definitely the Rorari that stand out...

Finally, I know the Thessalikoi might seem like an odd choice for a "surpisingly good" unit, given that they are elite cavalry and thus are expected to be good, but over the course of my Makedonia campaign, I've generally had a hard time finding effective "hammer" unit for hammer-and-anvil warfare... Most cavalry, I've found, just don't seem to have sufficient "punch" when on the charge, I was having a hard time teching up to the Hetairoi and I had specifically made a point of not stacking the army with FMs, because that's just not something I do... But then I was able hire a couple of units of merc Thessalikoi and ho...lee...shit...! Seriously, these guys are complete and utter monsters! In their first engagement, I charged the two units into the back of a Spartan bodyguard (upwards of 70 men IIRC, with the Thessos being 50 men each) that was being held in place by a unit of Phalangitai Deuteroi (which were, naturally, going to end up on the losing end fairly shortly if they didn't get some help) and I was absolutely aghast when not only was about about a third to a half of the bodyguard instantly slain upon impact, but an instant later the Spartans routed and were cut down by the Thessos! Since then, the Thessos (along with my general, of course, but prior to purchasing the Thessos his effectiveness had been somewhat limited by his small unit size) have reigned supreme on open battlefields, smashing enemy units against my phalanxes (frequently causing them to insta-rout just as those spartans did) and also being surprisingly effective anti-general units (particularly when the general has charged onto my phalanxes and they are able to quickly ride around and encircle him)... I've quickly grown to love them and certainly do personally consider them to be "surprisingly effective" simply because I honestly didn't expect them to be as utterly monstrous as they've turned out to be... :)

[Olaf The Great]

A suprisingly bad unit(in my experience) is the Massilian hoplites, they just get torn to shreds.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

A suprisingly bad unit(in my experience) is the Massilian hoplites, they just get torn to shreds.

Seconded.

[TancredTheNorman]

This of course depends entirely on what your campaign is.

For the non Phalangite factions a bad unit at the end of the campaign is anything, all that will be faced is phalanx spam with a little bit of (family member) cavalry and the occassional archer/skirmisher/slinger, so all that is required is something to attack a Phalanx from the back while it is killing it's designated target, and because anything could do that there are really no bad units, even the Phalanxes that could stand up to Suldoros and Post Marian Cohorts are going to lose about half their men from a chargeto the back while they are commiting a massacre.

Although for one bad unit I would say Ligurian Infantry, they could only be recruited in one place, are not superior to Gaeros, are expensive, and die as quickly as most other lower level spears.

[Cute Wolf]

now, look at this:
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/hayasdan/hay_georgian_swords.gif

- non lethal weapon (crappy swords)
- die like flies (unlike their proper armenian or pontos counterparts with metal armour)
- expensive
- limited recruitment
- small numbers compared with their performance

[Valion]

Noobish Question! where do you guys get the Unit Pictures? :)

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

From this site: http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.net/

[Ludens]

From this site: http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.net/

Or from the official EB site (https://www.europabarbarorum.com/factions.html).

[Lazy O]

Why do the Illergetes have the Qarthhadast symbol 0.o?

[NoHelmet]

http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.net/pics/Info/hellenistic_infantry_argyraspidai_INFO.jpg
and their kind (kleruchoi agema, chaeonian agema). Why even using them when for half of the price pezhetairoi do the same job?
edit: typos

[Olaf The Great]

The only time when an elite phalanx really makes a difference is when your opponent has a phalanx army too, otherwise you can defeat the whole world with levy phalanxes, or if you're Carthage and only have access to an elite phalanx.

[NoHelmet]

Yes, but even then, it is not the phalanx that will kill the opposing one, it just the anchor. And for that, hell, i used Deuteroi to hold Argyraspides, while someone else comes from behind and does the job. Killing, that is. Therefore, my conclusion: When it comes to price&upkeep / effectiveness ratio, ultimate "bad" unit: Elite phalanxes, or any ultra-expensive line holders. Keep the line cheap, make flanks expensive and elite, like thraikioi rhomphaiophoroi, or elite liby-phoenicians. And for the good, well... Any horse archer with an AP charge is worth the money, but you gotta love these:

http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.net/pics/Info/eastern_missile_cavalry_zradha_shivatir_INFO.jpg

[seienchin]

Elite phalangitai can withstand cataphract atacks, are good on walls and can be used without phalanx mode and still beat a marian cohort!
They are great multitaskers and have more men than normal units!

[NoHelmet]

Upkeep of 1000mnai? I don't really consider that cost-effective. For that upkeep, i would rather use 3 units of pantodapoi phalangitai, with AP secondary attack. By the way, why even use them outside phalanx mode on open field? And for siege, i would assault with some other type of infantry, not my elite phalanx, even though i rarely assault, i wait for their reinforcements or use multiple spies to open gates. All i wanted to say, when fielding a large army, i would use cheaper phalanx to provide for effective flankers and cavalry. For 2 squads of Elite phalanxes, you get 6 cheapos. Who, PROPERLY used, do the same job. Just my opinion...

[antisocialmunky]

They can potentially do the job better.

[Cute Wolf]

elite phalangitai are priced because their flexibility, and their numbers per unit, who could be a big deal in a fullstack when you have grown yourself into gigantic empire, they are perfect troops for boosting autoresove.

[athanaric]

Why do the Illergetes have the Qarthhadast symbol 0.o?Because only this version was uploaded. There are also variants for the Romani, Lusotannan, and both Gallic factions, each with appropriate shield and colouring.
I've created a "picture" with all of them for comparison. I can upload this in two weeks or so.


Lusotannan version:
https://img410.imageshack.us/img410/9807/iberianinfantryilergeta.jpg (https://img410.imageshack.us/i/iberianinfantryilergeta.jpg/)

[Ca Putt]

elite phalanxes CAN be quite usefull when fighting scary stuff as no matter how many panda phalanxes you have they have quite low moral which can be the end of every line. personally I don't think Elite phalanxes are cost efficient aswell but what the heck, times come when you have to decide what units to put into your royal fullstack and money is only causing your FMs to become "wealthy" themselves. also remember that the player can only control 20 units whereas the AI could theoretically control 7? armies without behaving like friendly AI reinforcements(the AI isn't smart to start with but these guys were better seved if they were controlled by a calculator) and if my slots are limited I probably would prefer Elite phalanxes over AI reinforcement pandas.

they are a bit like spartans - just twice as much.

personally I prefer having cheap line holders and expensive flankers for the same price, or some Lancing HAs but elite phalanxes do hae some things that speak for them

[NoHelmet]

When i said reinforcements, i meant enemy reinforcements, because then you get the entire army out of the city without having to free-climb the walls... And yes, Elites do have their qualities, but i'm a blitzer, so when i get the Mics for them, i'm far from my homelands and too lazy to drag them to te frontlines. And another classic goodie:

http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.net/pics/Info/eastern_missile_indian_longbowmen_INFO.jpg

Low range, true, but superb secondary weapon, 8/AP/leth. 0.26

[Olaf The Great]

The one thing I don't understand is that the Indian Bowmen are advertised as HA killers, and their range doesn't permit that...but yes, they're a very solid unit regardless, and are absolute killers on walls.

Another suprisingly good unit, the Luso and Celtiberian skirmishers(not Iovamann), but the Ligurian spearmen.

Suprisingly bad, is the Rhaetic axemen.

[NoHelmet]

Suprisingly bad, is the Rhaetic axemen.

On the contrary, i find them to be good. AP primary and secondary, large unit, decent armor, shield... Why do you consider them bad?

[Olaf The Great]

I've had bad experiences wit h them, though admittedly it was against the romans-spamming-extraordinarii and I didn't really have a "hammer" on that battlefield, but I do remember them being chopped up mercilessly and barely killing anything

Plus they have a ridiculous shield.

[NoHelmet]

Well, they have high morale, shield is only slightly worse than roman (did you mean the look of the shield?), but don't expect them to frontaly hack infantry. I use them extensively, and have one silver chevron and one golden that fought all the way through italy, and now in greece in my Aedui campaign (happily destroying hoplites). All i say, they are not thraikioi rhomphaiophoroi, but do the job which they are supposed to do, and that is to grind the flanks. BTW, don't sacrifice expensive infantry to those god damn tanks extraordinarii, put some cheapos to the front, then go with, e.g., rhaetians from the flanks...

[TancredTheNorman]

To no helmet have you ever played a no phalanx or very poort phalanx faction? When you face that ai elite phalanx spam at the end of a typical Romani or even Barbarian Campaign you extend beyond your barbarian goals you will learn to respect and love the elite Phalanx.

[NoHelmet]

Actually, i usually play with "no phalanx or very poor phalanx" faction. I currently face Ptolemaioi with Pahlava. I respect them by not engaging them. Kill the general first, then one by one, they fall. Why would i engage their line if i can break it up? Divide the line and conquer it. Elite phalanx is like a high class "escort", it does the job very good, but you cannot love it.

[Burebista]

I could never understand the ideea behind elite phalanxes. They are rly not worth the effort for their purpose , only used for holding the line. they may have tehsecondary attack , yes , but they will tipically be assigned center , so they wont get to use their sec attack , or a flank , where they are too slow and do less than a normal flanker.

U want to see elites? Buy elephants.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

And yet if you are fighting battles without much heavy cavalry or high class AP infantry, those elite phalangites are a pain in the rear. For example in my Hai campaign I am not spamming horse archers and I don't really use AP infantry all that much so I always lose a lot when fighting them if my general is off somewhere else on the battlefield.

[TancredTheNorman]

Actually, i usually play with "no phalanx or very poor phalanx" faction. I currently face Ptolemaioi with Pahlava. I respect them by not engaging them. Kill the general first, then one by one, they fall. Why would i engage their line if i can break it up? Divide the line and conquer it. Elite phalanx is like a high class "escort", it does the job very good, but you cannot love it.

I agree you can't love them, but I tend to play largely without cavalry, and what little cavalry I have has to protect against the couple horses the ai brings (it feels like the Illiad because it is often famaily member vs family member). I tend to usually defeat a stack of ai spam, my poor Barbarian Infantry never wins or wins with only a couple survivors, Romans fare much better but still suffer unusually high casualties.

My point in the end is not all units are designed to be used by us, I think elite Phalanxes are designed for the ai in general, and Ptolemaioi and Selucid factions in particular in order to encourage us to prevent either from reaching their potential of owning most of the map while you become the only other significant power. My foreign policy in my most recent campaign (I am determined that this time I won't abandon the Romani like I usually do) is to prevent the rise of the House of Ptolemy, and help cause the fall of Selucid Empire.

[Burebista]

I agree you can't love them, but I tend to play largely without cavalry, and what little cavalry I have has to protect against the couple horses the ai brings (it feels like the Illiad because it is often famaily member vs family member). I tend to usually defeat a stack of ai spam, my poor Barbarian Infantry never wins or wins with only a couple survivors, Romans fare much better but still suffer unusually high casualties.

My point in the end is not all units are designed to be used by us, I think elite Phalanxes are designed for the ai in general, and Ptolemaioi and Selucid factions in particular in order to encourage us to prevent either from reaching their potential of owning most of the map while you become the only other significant power. My foreign policy in my most recent campaign (I am determined that this time I won't abandon the Romani like I usually do) is to prevent the rise of the House of Ptolemy, and help cause the fall of Selucid Empire.

i think you are using your armies wrongly. Phalanxes beat anything , it is true , but only from the front. There is the option of disproportionate power on one flank , the tactic of Epaminondas , which should solve most problems . I use it frequently and does wonders. Basically your forces should have a thin center line that hold the line in guard mode while the all-powerful flank (aprox 40-50% of ur forces) creates havoc on one side and starts a domino effect

Remember: Phalanxes can't manoever very well , they cant adjust to your army very fast so flanking them is not very hard. Also , any scary units do wonders as Pantodapoi Phalangitai have only 8 morale

[ChingizLink]

Yeah, that's why they are so scary. It seems that Penisses were were very terrible those ages.

This just reminded me of the scene in Rome on HBO, when Lucius Vorenus comes home to his wife for the first time in a 8-10 years, and he empties his misc keepsakes and money out, and right there is a mummified "phallus" of a Sueve (I think) he killed. I loved the way he explains to his wife, as if she's gonna be like "Oh, so they're especially large, strong men and fearsome warriors? Oh, never mind what I said about throwing the mummified penis out. Let's put it on the mantle..."

[ChingizLink]

Actually, i usually play with "no phalanx or very poor phalanx" faction. I currently face Ptolemaioi with Pahlava. I respect them by not engaging them. Kill the general first, then one by one, they fall. Why would i engage their line if i can break it up? Divide the line and conquer it. Elite phalanx is like a high class "escort", it does the job very good, but you cannot love it.

I totally agree with the above of course, but lately, I've been having pushing my luck when fighting big Successor style armies. I always used the Pahlava armored HAs/Zradha shivatir (can't beat them for the $; I recently started using the Dehbeds more, but I have trouble remembering they're not as tough or able to stick/follow up a charge like the Zradhas) as my core troops, along with an azad or grivpanvar, usually a dahae noble, and then 3-6 HAs. I always try to set up the general and/or the enemy's best cavalry and missile troops first, wear down the phalanxes and elite heavy infantry with HAs and Zradhas/Dahae/etc, and charge the big units once they're reduced by a third or so. But I really love seeing fresh, full strength heavy phalanx units with their guard down (usually walking toward my general like frankenstein) and charging their rear (wow, that came out different than I anticipated) with Zradhas, Dahae or...tee hee hee hee...Grivpanvars.

It's kinda like playing chicken once the charge dies down. Like "Okay, so I'm losing a guy every 5-10 seconds...he's losing em every 2 seconds...okay, so my guy's not...oh OH OH OH OH OKAY OKAY OKAY MOVE MOVE!!!!"

And then there are those times when...you're micromanaging, totally space out about that suicide mission you sent them on until you hear their horn, pause the game, go "RUH-ROH..." like Scooby Doo, then see your Dahae Riders -- those stupid, brave BEAUTIFUL BASTARDS -- in a full charge, like 3 feet from a perfectly formed phalanx unit...

[TancredTheNorman]

i think you are using your armies wrongly. Phalanxes beat anything , it is true , but only from the front. There is the option of disproportionate power on one flank , the tactic of Epaminondas , which should solve most problems . I use it frequently and does wonders. Basically your forces should have a thin center line that hold the line in guard mode while the all-powerful flank (aprox 40-50% of ur forces) creates havoc on one side and starts a domino effect

Remember: Phalanxes can't manoever very well , they cant adjust to your army very fast so flanking them is not very hard. Also , any scary units do wonders as Pantodapoi Phalangitai have only 8 morale

Pantodapoi was not the topic, at the end of all of my campaigns I am facing the royal guard of Phalangites, we are discussing the elites who kill Marian Cohortes without using Phalanxes, and it's not a myth. I have lost Suldoros, Hastati, Triarii, Principes, Gaeros, Hoplitae, and even some usually reliable Phalanx Busters like Hillmen charging those from the back while they fight Lugoe with their pikes. If I don't have enough cavalry to counter their family members on top of needing to deal with their secondary attack I have to deal with cavalry charges to the back of my own flankers.

The best aspect is once the battle is over with a heroic victory it being the ai it just drops in an identical army. Pantadopoi of any type is only some form of line holder, the ai actually respects that and never brings more then 2-4 of those.

I'm not complaining I am just pointing out that to the ai Elit Phalanxes are their lifeblood, Phalanx Spam is just annoying because you want to fight a real enemy not rout everything, Elite Phalanx Spam is a pain unless you have a cavalry heavy army.

Even with cavalry heavy armies I find elite Phalangites fare much better against me then anything else, the ultimate proof is the casualty list, I fought Marian Reform Infantry with cavalry (Brihentin) with 10 losses to their 600 (small unit size), Phalangite Elites of the east took out 35 to the same 600 casualties, numbers do speak for themselves, their price tag is annoying for us which is why the ai gets finnancial assistance via the script.

[Burebista]

Pantodapoi was not the topic, at the end of all of my campaigns I am facing the royal guard of Phalangites, we are discussing the elites who kill Marian Cohortes without using Phalanxes, and it's not a myth. I have lost Suldoros, Hastati, Triarii, Principes, Gaeros, Hoplitae, and even some usually reliable Phalanx Busters like Hillmen charging those from the back while they fight Lugoe with their pikes. If I don't have enough cavalry to counter their family members on top of needing to deal with their secondary attack I have to deal with cavalry charges to the back of my own flankers.

The best aspect is once the battle is over with a heroic victory it being the ai it just drops in an identical army. Pantadopoi of any type is only some form of line holder, the ai actually respects that and never brings more then 2-4 of those.

I'm not complaining I am just pointing out that to the ai Elit Phalanxes are their lifeblood, Phalanx Spam is just annoying because you want to fight a real enemy not rout everything, Elite Phalanx Spam is a pain unless you have a cavalry heavy army.

Even with cavalry heavy armies I find elite Phalangites fare much better against me then anything else, the ultimate proof is the casualty list, I fought Marian Reform Infantry with cavalry (Brihentin) with 10 losses to their 600 (small unit size), Phalangite Elites of the east took out 35 to the same 600 casualties, numbers do speak for themselves, their price tag is annoying for us which is why the ai gets finnancial assistance via the script.

And yet the player is usually the one that fields a full elite phalanx army:))

[Olaf The Great]

I really shouldn't be suprised about this, as they are Elites....but the Liby-Pheonician elites with the axes are INSANELY good, I haven't actually tried the sacred band but I don't know if they're secondary is AP or as lethal as the axe, Throw these guys on walls and they will just win, use them against practically any unit and you will win even when outnumbered. Though they -are- elites, but I would have just assumed that they were just overpriced guys that would get chopped up just the same as everyone else, but they are definitely worth their price.

[lonewolf209]

I really shouldn't be suprised about this, as they are Elites....but the Liby-Pheonician elites with the axes are INSANELY good, I haven't actually tried the sacred band but I don't know if they're secondary is AP or as lethal as the axe, Throw these guys on walls and they will just win, use them against practically any unit and you will win even when outnumbered. Though they -are- elites, but I would have just assumed that they were just overpriced guys that would get chopped up just the same as everyone else, but they are definitely worth their price.

I have to agree. In my last carthage campain i bought a few to guard my flanks just to waist the copious amounts of money i had. i was completely suprised by them. spears, axes, good armor and decent shield, they are totally worth the price

[seienchin]

Unlike the sacred band, which is useless for their price

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

I really shouldn't be suprised about this, as they are Elites....but the Liby-Pheonician elites with the axes are INSANELY good, I haven't actually tried the sacred band but I don't know if they're secondary is AP or as lethal as the axe, Throw these guys on walls and they will just win, use them against practically any unit and you will win even when outnumbered. Though they -are- elites, but I would have just assumed that they were just overpriced guys that would get chopped up just the same as everyone else, but they are definitely worth their price.

I agree as well. In a Roman campaign I played a long while ago, I got my first Polybian legions and decided to invade Africa with them. I met a smallish Carthaginian army with my brand new army of 4 Hastati, 4 Principes, 2 Triarii, 2 Equites, and 4 Velites. It was a bridge battle and the AI stationed one unit of Elite Liby-Phonecians on the opposite side while the rest of his army stood behind. Since I had no long range ranged units I figured I would just bowl them over with my masses of infantry...

Wrong. I lost all 8 Principes and Hastati before my Triarii finally killed the last one and the rest of the Carthaginian army stormed the bridge causing the rest of my army to rout. Only my cavalry got away. It was the most resounding defeat I'd ever had and it came more or less solely at the hands of these guys. They racked up close to 700 kills!

[Burebista]

I'll throw you a curve ball..

One of the best units cost effective in the whole game is.....SOTAROAS. 411 Mnai. For that you get much more than expected.Good archer mass , good sec attack & very hardy.

I am surprised just how good they are for kiting.

[NoHelmet]

I'll throw you a curve ball..

One of the best units cost effective in the whole game is.....SOTAROAS. 411 Mnai. For that you get much more than expected.Good archer mass , good sec attack & very hardy.

I am surprised just how good they are for kiting.

Better yet:
http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.net/pics/Info/arabian_missile_northern_arab_levy_INFO.jpg

Much better than sotaroas and parthian archer spearmen. Bigger unit, more ammo and longer range. Unexpected kick-asses.

[Burebista]

Better yet:
http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.net/pics/Info/arabian_missile_northern_arab_levy_INFO.jpg

Much better than sotaroas and parthian archer spearmen. Bigger unit, more ammo and longer range. Unexpected kick-asses.

Yes , but at double the cost. At that price i can't afford cannon fodder. Sotaroas are in a special category of "i dont care if i lose them , i can spam milions " cathegory.

[Ca Putt]

plus they can be recruited in northern europe thus will face a lot of unarmored troops, in my sweboz campaigns they were often a far to large portion of my army ;) yet imho celtic slingers are better as they have more range and can also be used against romans, and elites.

[Olaf The Great]

The idea is that by now we know that the eastern archer spearmen are really good for their cost, but we all still have prejudice against the western archers, and while they suck in comparison to easterners they are even cheaper and well, do you really need overpowered bows in the west when you're facing mostly naked celts? It's really the fire arrows and spears that do the damage.

[Burebista]

The idea is that by now we know that the eastern archer spearmen are really good for their cost, but we all still have prejudice against the western archers, and while they suck in comparison to easterners they are even cheaper and well, do you really need overpowered bows in the west when you're facing mostly naked celts? It's really the fire arrows and spears that do the damage.

I think you are missing the whole value of the unit.

Imagine this scenario..ur enemy has mostly infantry and a few medium/light horse. if they charge you with the horse you got the spear. And if they chase you with infantry you are kiting or shooting in the back a unit that is probably 3-4 times more expensive than your own, thus not doing the enemy's purpose (they should be considered semi-skirmishers with lots of ammo). This is mostly usefull in Multiplay where every 100 mnai counts , as in Single player the AI does indeed have imense resources.
Unit description "They are not really meant to defeat an enemy force, or even truly damage one, so much as they are meant to irritate and draw attention away from a main force, so it can position itself for flanking. As such, they are good runners, who fire a few volleys as a distraction, and then withdraw to a safe position to hide. If caught in a melee, they would be slaughtered for sure."

[seienchin]

You probably forget that despite their spears sotaroas get butcherd in close combat against cavallery and their bows are next to useless, because of their small unit size. Also fire arrows are good, but most other barbarian armies you face have great morale so it might be usefull in some cases, but against a 7star sweboz general its useless.
I prefer to use every men I can get plus some cavallery to swarm my enemies. That tactic never failed me^^.

[antisocialmunky]

Sotaroas kill cav for cost though. That is all that matters. Besides you can rush in your wall of AP after the archers stop the cav dead.

[Burebista]

Sotaroas kill cav for cost though. That is all that matters. Besides you can rush in your wall of AP after the archers stop the cav dead.

yep , they cost 411 but they keep busy a cav unit of maybe 3000 or a infantry unit of 1500sh

[seienchin]

So yeah they are usefull in multiplayer, but they are useless in a campain game. We should make a difference there. ;)
And their usefullness in multiplayer is not because of their ability, but just because they are the cheapest unit in the game.

[Ca Putt]

mostly useless in campaign because they share their AOR with Celtic slingers, their germanic brothers(with almost identical stats) have a much more interesting AoR as they are the only "long" ranged unit the Sweboz can recruit early on and thus is very usefull in sieges and battles outside the forest in general.
crappy maybe but well even a crappy archer is usefull when fighting barechested guys ;)
and with their spears they are just strong enough to join the final rumble with all other troops depleted and exhausted. especially as they'll probably have a lot o chevrons

[Burebista]

And their usefullness in multiplayer is not because of their ability, but just because they are the cheapest unit in the game.

True , but only half. They are useful because they are "very hardy" and have a spear with decent lethality compared to rest of archers with 0.04 .

[athanaric]

So yeah they are usefull in multiplayer, but they are useless in a campain game. We should make a difference there. ;)
Not true. I use them in campaign, and they are quite useful... if you know how to use them. Plus the Casse version looks very neat.



And their usefullness in multiplayer is not because of their ability, but just because they are the cheapest unit in the game.
Not true. Accensi are cheaper.

[Olaf The Great]

A unit doesn't have to be good to be suprisingly good. Sotaroas are really quite horrible, but they're SUPRISINGLY good.

[Burebista]

http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.net/pics/Info/iberian_cavalry_light_curisii_INFO.jpg

Here's another. Iberi curisi .

Can anyone guess why i think this unit is sometimes extremely good?

[Arjos]

Here's another. Iberi curisi .

Can anyone guess why i think this unit is sometimes extremely good?

Hiding? ^^

And for good unit I'll say the Appea Gaedotos (phalanx with guard on and "hellraiser" with its axe :p)

[Burebista]

Hiding? ^^

And for good unit I'll say the Appea Gaedotos (phalanx with guard on and "hellraiser" with its axe :p)

Yep..hiding in grass...i loled so hard first time i saw it:)

Also , love the Appea too.They are great , especially for their cost and stamina

[GenosseGeneral]

Here's another. Iberi curisi .

Can anyone guess why i think this unit is sometimes extremely good?

Because they are affordable, because they have very good stamina, can easily fight other medium cav (like equites romani). They can do simply everything, they can chase, fight cav, or even charge.

[panten]

Two units i learned to love during my ongoing AS campaign:

Eastern Axemen: They are simply awesome, they win the important fights for me and have had more than their fair share in killing Pahlavian family members.
Of course they die like flies if put directly against those arrow railguns, but supported by Pantodapoi and the light HA/archers I can recruit, they kill everything Pahlava throws at me. Next to the phalangitai pantodapoi and Persian archers they are the most valuable units in my garrisons and field armies in the East.

Podromoi: I love that cavalry. It's perfect for my style of fighting: pinning down the enemy and than go for aggressive and repeated charges on the flanks and the rear. They also kill cavalry effective enough and have a great stamina recovery. Has been one of the key units when fighting the Ptolemaioi.

[Olaf The Great]

Okay, the best, the most dangerous, and the cheapest(free once you first make it) killing machine in the game is....
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_FhgkI_RYao8/SZoywXoK5jI/AAAAAAAACtY/J-QxwLdVHLE/s400/50_Cal.jpg
inside of a
http://amcboston.org/walks/pics1/LynnWoods-StoneTower-6-2-02-JB.jpg
They slaughter everything that gets in range and only one unit in the game can take them down, and only a few factions even get access.

[Kikaz]

Okay, the best, the most dangerous, and the cheapest(free once you first make it) killing machine in the game is....
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_FhgkI_RYao8/SZoywXoK5jI/AAAAAAAACtY/J-QxwLdVHLE/s400/50_Cal.jpg
inside of a
http://amcboston.org/walks/pics1/LynnWoods-StoneTower-6-2-02-JB.jpg
They slaughter everything that gets in range and only one unit in the game can take them down, and only a few factions even get access.

Especially useful against the AI, who love to bask in raining death for reasons not yet known.

[anubis88]

I think every singe unit was mentioned in this thread :laugh3:

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

I think I'll be bored later today. I'll do a tally of votes so we can actually have some results.

[Olaf The Great]

One of the "poor guys in the east with axes" will win the "surprisingly good" vote, but what would be the most surprisingly bad unit?

[seienchin]

In Singleplayer I would still go for the sotaroas, but okay they are not "surprisingly bad"
Massylian hoplitai are really surprisingly bad and so are thorakitai in my opinion. They are heavy armoured and should be able to hold a line and dish out damage, but they dont do any damage and are getting butchered against AP carying levies.

[Arjos]

Uhm... Bad units... Katapeltai or Lithoboloi?
Was there such an high upkeep? (maintenance for a wooden structure with springs of sinews)...

[Olaf The Great]

I would be happier with the siege weapons if they came in higher numbers with the same or slightly cheaper price, the problem is they come onto a battlefield with 1 or 2 machines on huge and run out of ammo after one thing gets broken, or even before that if they get unlucky with missing. The anti-personelll version is pretty much useless, or atleast I assume it is, it might be "suprisingly good" but I can't say because I've never seen the purpose in using them.

[athanaric]

I would be happier with the siege weapons if they came in higher numbers with the same or slightly cheaper price, the problem is they come onto a battlefield with 1 or 2 machines on huge and run out of ammo after one thing gets broken, or even before that if they get unlucky with missing. The anti-personelll version is pretty much useless, or atleast I assume it is, it might be "suprisingly good" but I can't say because I've never seen the purpose in using them.
The smallest version (Tri... Katapeltai/Scorpiones) are worth the expense - you get six of them per unit (or was it eight?), and they have a very decent range. Good for decimating elite troops, phalanxes, elephants, or bodyguard units.
The three bigger types are a waste of money IMO. They're only useful for destroying wooden towers when assaulting cities with wooden walls, to prevent the "wooden tower backfire bug".

[Ludens]

Was there such an high upkeep? (maintenance for a wooden structure with springs of sinews)...

I suppose it is to discourage people from using them on the battlefield. The bigger ones required a lot of time to set up and range, so no use for on the battlefield. Also, don't underestimate just how expensive they were. They weren't created from from a few logs cut down on the spot, but required special wood types. The people who operate them were highly-paid experts.

[Duguntz]

I suppose it is to discourage people from using them on the battlefield. The bigger ones required a lot of time to set up and range, so no use for on the battlefield. Also, don't underestimate just how expensive they were. They weren't created from from a few logs cut down on the spot, but required special wood types. The people who operate them were highly-paid experts.

True, but as an example, when Caesar invaded gauls, he was building his seige engine on the spot, sending parties in the forest to cut wood for that purpuse only, then the engeener team would build the seige engines... so not, everytime, but in many cases the armies had the material already at disposition in the land they were invading...

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

And you still build siege engines on the spot when assaulting towns. Only the very delicate torsion based weapons require experts to man and build.

And yeah, I started a tally but decided time would be better spent on my campaign instead. Maybe in a few days lol.

[Olaf The Great]

The only time where siege weapons are useful are in the Central European badass zones, and that's only because the script. Since the siege weapons slow down your army to a crawl the "1 turn bonus" for knocking down walls is effectively lost, though it does have a bit of a use in places like central Italy where you can get Rome, Capua, and Arpi in 2 turns with siege weapons, or 3 turns for the 4 southermost Greek cities, but honestly, it's just silly. Elephants can still knock down wooden walls and gates, and actually have a use on the battlefield after the walls are down.

[IPoseTheQuestionYouReturnTheAnswer]

Well, after playing Carthage a bit I decided to bring this thread back with my observations!

Surprisingly Good:
Gldgmtk
https://img840.imageshack.us/img840/1376/kartnumidiannobles.gif (https://img840.imageshack.us/i/kartnumidiannobles.gif/)

These guys are amazing. I always used to hate javelin horses because of the low ammo and short range, but my Gldgmtk turn out to be fearsome engines of destruction in almost every battle. They're fast moving, and can't be caught by any other unit - they can outrun heavy cavalry even while Tired. They have incredible stamina, and will stay Fresh or Warmed up for inhuman amounts of time, and will rest from tired all they way back to fresh in under a minute. Their javelins are capable of tearing a swath of destruction through any unit's rear, even heavy infantry. Give Gldgmtk an elevation advantage and face them to the side or rear of a unit, and be prepared for that 200 man unit to sink down to 50 men in three or four volleys. Then, you can finish the job with a charge since these guys carry long spears as a secondary weapon.

These guys are the best unit I've come across in EB, and are certainly my favorite so far. I've lost count of how many battles witnessed a mere two of these units working together to collapse an entire flank of the enemy army. Just two or three of these guys are worth an entire army. In both of my main armies, my Gldgmtk have significantly more experience than any other unit because they always kill hundreds of men each battle. I just can't say enough about how awesome this unit is. Go Numidia.

I also love these guys for their name. I love words that don't have vowels. G-uhl-d-gmmtk..?

Surprisingly Bad:
Iberian Lancearii
https://img337.imageshack.us/img337/5267/kariberianlancearii.gif (https://img337.imageshack.us/i/kariberianlancearii.gif/)

These guys are such a trash unit. It's incredibly disappointing since Lanceari are among the prettiest units in EB - not to mention the most expensive - but they are really a terrible, terrible unit. In melee, Lanceari will get torn to pieces by any other unit in the game, even skirmishers. They are inferior to Sacred Band cavalry in every way, there's simply no reason to use them. Even the Iberian Medium cavalry lasts longer than Lanceari. Lanceari also have a pathetic stamina rating and will often fall to Winded just from being maneuvered into position, before the charge even occurs. This is an especially bad thing because Lanceari have a virtually nonexistent melee attack and low defense for such an expensive unit, so arriving in melee combat with low stamina, low melee attack, and low defense means equals dead unit. The Sacred Band cavalry have better attack, much better defense, only slightly lower charge rating, and can tank it out in melee for 10+ seconds with no problem, as well as turn their backs on a unit to withdraw from a charge without losing any men at all, whereas Lanceari usually lose at least 4-5 men while withdrawing for a new charge due to poor defense and low stamina/speed.

Sacred Band cavalry and Iberian Medium cavalry are better units overall. On a related note, I'm puzzled as to how Sacred Bands have more defense than Lanceari when the Sacred band horse has only a little bit of barding but the Lanceari is completely covered from head to hoof in armor, and the rider almost as well armored. I realize the Sacred Band are supposed to be the better unit due to cost and 1100 upkeep, but at any rate, I'd expect a heavy cavalry unit with 1000 upkeep to be better than this. The upkeep difference between SB and Lanceari isn't much, but the performance difference is extremely noticable. In my Iberian army, my three units of Lanceari are floating around 30-45 men after years on the road, while my Sacred Band unit is still at 86 men, despite using both only for their charges, and despite generally putting the Sacred Band unit in more dangerous situations, having learned that they handle them better than lanceari. That's a huge difference!

[Burebista]

Nice to see noble numidian cav in there. Don't fully agree with you on their cost effectiveness though. I find them too expensive , and would rather have Curepos/leuce epos as they do the same job but much cheaper. Still , it's a matter of preference.

Iberi lanceari....i am also dissapointed about them. Much better to use Parashim cavalry , either one of the 3.

[Olaf The Great]

Cost effectiveness doesn't mean much as the Carthies. :clown:
But yeah, the Lanceari are just bad units, in my edu I gave them very good stamina and increased their armor and attack a bit, though I increased their cost too.

[vollorix]

I think, Jugundiz were mentioned in this thread allready, but they are the only unit wich has ever managed to slain at least 3 of my sweboz bodyguards ( aside from Lugi monsters in frontal assault ^^ ), while beeing "tired", lost the general, and actually weaving. And i´m not talking about the town center, where they have no way to run.
Somehow, playing as Sweboz, i definetly prefer them over the larger sized levy warband, going then straight to the Dugundiz, wich are, not suprisingly, good ( if one uses them well ).

[QuintusSertorius]

Massylian hoplitai are really surprisingly bad and so are thorakitai in my opinion. They are heavy armoured and should be able to hold a line and dish out damage, but they dont do any damage and are getting butchered against AP carying levies.

I was surprised at how weak the Massilian hoplites are; I think the problem is that they don't automatically switch to swords against infantry, and their melee skill is really low (which is an issue if they're using a spear against a non-spear unit, what with the -4 penalty). Keltohellenikoi are a better Celt-Greek mixed unit.

Thorakitai on the other hand are pretty durable. I used a unit of them in the centre of my line for a bit, though that's not what they're for. They're supposed to be heavy flankers, not for holding the line.

[athanaric]

Thorakitai on the other hand are pretty durable. I used a unit of them in the centre of my line for a bit, though that's not what they're for. They're supposed to be heavy flankers, not for holding the line.
Thorakitai are excellent against cavalry. If anything, they're "unsurprisingly good".

[A_Dane]

I've had the exact opposite experience with sacred band/Lancearri. In my Carthage game, the Lancearri were the unit that broke the enemy most, while the sacred band was just thorn to pieces by anything that hit them.

Might just be me experiencing this, havn't changed anything.

[FriendlyFire]

I've been using Ekdromoi Hoplitai in a KH campaign for the first time, and found them surprisingly good.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/koinon-hellenon/kh_ekdromoi_hoplitai.gif

Looking at their stats I've always thought they were a waste of Mnai, since for about the same upkeep I can have Classical Hoplites who'll hold a line forever, or Thureophoroi who can guard the flanks with javelins. In desperation I tried some to counter hordes of Makedonian skirmishers, and found out that they're exactly what it says on the tin: fast enough and fit enough to run down, fight, and rout any light skirmisher.

Then I started experimenting with them as flank guards, to push far out and cover my flanking infantry as they charge the backs of the enemy's main line. I've generally used Thureophoroi for this, but they always seem to be tired out before they've even made contact. Ekdromoi get there faster, in better condition, and are quite able to stand up to the regular second enemy line. They'll fight off cavalry, and have brought down enemy FMs. When the enemy line is tired out and wavering, the Ekdromoi will still only be warmed up, and ready to launch an all-out charge with a hefty charge bonus of 8. With their speed, endurance, charge, and ability to hold out long enough for heavier forces to rescue them (if they end up fighting sword infantry, for example) I've begun thinking of them as a dirt-cheap line-holding quick-response light cavalry unit, instead of a somewhat-expensive light infantry unit.

Ekdromoi also have a big strategic advantage, since they're recruitable from a second-level MIC. This is key in the early campaign, or when you're expanding outwards into new territories, since it means recent conquests can recruit Ekdromoi while your core cities supply classical hoplites from their third-level MICs.

[Epimetheus]

I've found the Ekdromoi surprisingly useful on the steppes, actually. Though they're designed to counter peltasts, they actually work fairly well against horse-archers as well. I once used a stack of them to defend the Bosphorus from the Sauromatae. The results were hilarious. I set the Ekdromoi in loose formation, and ended up chasing the nomads all over the map. The Ekdromoi were able to keep pace with the nomads, though they could never quite catch up, and their huge shields meant that they took few casualties. Eventually the nomads became exhausted, ran out of arrows, and were quickly butchered when they tried to enter melee.

[rotten]

1 unit vs 1 unit they win, but if the horse archers manage to not waste their arrows on the aspis, the ekdromos is toast.

[Vaginacles]

This has probably been done to death but, recently i've been playing as AS and holy crap, Archer-spearmen are almost OP. I've been wasting Pav HA and archers with a half stack of these guys. Its LOL funny when i place these dudes on top of a hill, waste the PAV general, and then rout the rest of his army with my charging general. Considering my entire plan is to just delay the :daisy: out of the east until i can mop up the ptolemies (which by the way, prodromi are :daisy: useful as fodder kamakazi routing calvalry) then i can focus my money on recruiting and building up infra.

[Captain Trek]

During my current Saba campaign (wherein I wound up invading Egypt too early, leaving my economy in poor shape due to corruption and my Faction Leader dashing around the place like a headless chicken fighting off endless 'Ptolemic stacks), I've found that Machimoi are surprisingly good. Recruited out of level two regional MICs in Alexandria and Memphis, these guys are decently well-armoured, tough and seem to level up extremely fast. Despite being swordsmen and not spearmen, they can even fight well against enemy FMs and hack right through the flanks of enemy pike phalanxes. In other words, these guys have really saved my bacon during that campaign and I'm definitely surprised at their truly excellent performance for their low teir and their small price...

[The_Blacksmith]

In my Makedonia campaign ive been stunned by the Prodiomoi.. GOD THEY ARE GOOD!!!

and the Royal Skirmisher cav for Makedon is REALLY bad... even at hunting down fleeing troops...

[seleucid empire]

surprisingly good:
Bactrian light infantry (great against infantry)
Maure infantry
Arabian light infantry (core of my armies when i conquer south arabia as AS)
Sabean levy spearmen (these guys srsly piss me off when I play against saba. They hold on until theres 40 men left in their unit ouf of 240 and the only way to rout them early is to use massed arabian skimishers)
Jewish infantry
Steppe riders (just WOW. I never thought a unit of cavalry could possibly be that good)
lucanian light infantry (they are skirmishers with spears but for some reason they are acutally very good on walls. I remember in my siege of Capua, I deployed one of these on the walls to hold of a marian cohort while my mercenary peltasts came from the other side. I was praying to god that they wouldn't rout before they got there but to my surprise they were actually holding on their own and doing a lot of damage to the marian cohort)
Triballi infantry
Chatti spearmen (big fan of these. too bad you can onnly get them in one province
Median and eastern medium cavalry (people dont like them but for me they are excellent. They are more like light cavalry than medium but still have ok charge. I keep one unit around when i head west)

Surprisingly Bad:
Pelt Maks: i guess they are mobile and good in sieges but but suffer quite few casualties even against medium infantry. I prefer Hypaspistai cause they never break and murder everything
Kinsmen heavy cavalry (bad stamina imo, not that good in charging. Suffer higher casualties despite that pretty looking armour they have)
Bactrian horsearchers (give me a unit of steppe riders ANY day)
Chalkaspides/Bronze shields/pontic elite phalanx (not really a match for any of the elite phalanxes of nearby factions)

[Brennus]

Jewish infantry


Possibly the most beloved and praised unit in EB.

[mikepettyrtw]

Oh yes. Those mofo's can kill a clean 20 noble cataphracts in a prolonged melee, have a nearly infinite number of javelins & ridiculously high morale. Heck, thay can take a Cat charge from both side at once!
https://img99.imageshack.us/img99/9809/jewishspearmen1.jpg
Unlike these guys who think they're each individually Michael Jordan:
https://img837.imageshack.us/img837/3711/suckypreatorians.jpg
https://img222.imageshack.us/img222/7965/suckypreatorians2.jpg
C'mon, don't these guys realize the Jordan thing only works if they all do it at once!
https://img17.imageshack.us/img17/253/suckypreatorians3.jpg

[seleucid empire]

oh yeah also ligurian infantry

They are pretty solid considering their stats dont look too high. I created an army of these in my AS campaign to protect the western border of italy. They held against fullstacks of professional and elite troops of the Brown death and Aedui

[Frtigern]

I will throw in some here. These units represent what I've come to rely on in tight spots and continually surprise me by their durability and cost efficiency. Some I recruit for their forest and ambushing abilities. I avoid levies if I can because I want versatile units that can throw javelins or pull out an AP sidearm. Being half the upkeep of some elites, they make up what they lack in discipline or morale with numbers and well rounded stats. It costs too much to maintain an army of units with more than 400 upkeep each. Spearmen are the natural, unrewarded underdogs of ancient warfare. Anyone can make a spear, swords take much more resources, time and skill to make. Bad thing about sword units is that they can't counter heavy cavalry charges. Spearmen can. Cavalry... well you need horses, and dudes who can ride them. Archers... uh, you need dudes who can shoot bows well and they can't do much else. Also spearmen, both pike and non-pike can fill many roles. But spearmen will always be the backbone, if fighting Greeks I always bring along some pikemen but for most uses the short sticks will do.

Good cheap units <300 upkeep
Thracian Light Spearmen
Iberian Light Spearmen
Dacian Light Phalanx
Alpine Phalanx

Good cheap units >300 but <400 upkeep
Celto-Hellenic Infantry
Noricum Spearmen
Belgae Spearmen
Hellenic Native Phalanx
Machimoi Native Phalanx
Babylonian Heavy Spearmen - I love their maces and old school-ness

[seleucid empire]

just remembered some more:

Good:
Armenian spearmen
Belgian spearmen
Boii swordsmen
Indian spearmen (held off a Saka cat charge, didn't suffer half as bad as i thought it would)
Parthian Hellenic infantry (im surprised no one has mentioned these. They kill twice as fast as Princeps but have much lower morale. They are fast, flexible and deadly despite their lower stats. I only wish they would have higher morale, then i would start a parthian campaign just to make an army of these and sail them to Italy to see how they do against the legions)

Bad:
Thessalian cavalry, Greek noble cavalry and their roman equivalent (not completely bad but let downs)

[Ca Putt]

Parthian Hellenic infantry (im surprised no one has mentioned these. They kill twice as fast as Princeps but have much lower morale. They are fast, flexible and deadly despite their lower stats. I only wish they would have higher morale, then i would start a parthian campaign just to make an army of these and sail them to Italy to see how they do against the legions)

Bad:
Thessalian cavalry, Greek noble cavalry and their roman equivalent (not completely bad but let downs)

Orly? for me it always was the other way around. Maybe it's also because of differing expections, Parthohellens afterall are what Parthia gets as factional "heavy" infantry so I was hugely unhappy with them and got back to babylonian Spearmen(hellyeah) + Eastern axemen as my infantry. Western Heavy lancers never let me down, I prefer their cheapest version(KH) but If i get my hands on Tessalians(premium edition) or the Equites Extraordinari(the overpriced ones) I'm really happy. They probably are so popular as they are THE heavy Lancer for two factions with real cavalry deficits: Romans and Koinon hellenon.

[huth]

someone should make a summary from all propositions :P

[moonburn]

that would be 80% of all non elit units

my favourite is the haploi

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

The Parthohellenikoi Thureophoroi perform poorly in my experience. They have a shortsword but don't have gladius lethality and their morale and discipline leave much to be desired. That being said, they are really the only infantry the Parthians get that has armor and javelins so they do have some use, especially as garrison units.