View Full Version : Small Mafia Game Swords and Sorcery Mafia Without the Swords [Concluded]
Montmorency
02-12-2017, 21:39
I think coordinating actions before night is the best way to help the corrupted mage manipulate them.
First just tell me your thoughts on how Csargo should be treated. Do you agree that Snerk and Arakhor could also be looked at?
Montmorency
02-12-2017, 21:40
Is there an updated night action chart?
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?152488-Swords-and-Sorcery-Mafia-Without-the-Swords-In-Play&p=2053738519&viewfull=1#post2053738519
First just tell me your thoughts on how Csargo should be treated.
I suggest you re-read the post you just quoted.
Did you and GH get the same spellbook?
We each had access to the same list of spells, yes.
I agree the POE is Arakhor, Csargo, Snerk in some order. I won't comment on what night actions should be taken or if anyone should be given priority.
We each had access to the same list of spells, yes.
Can you invite me to mason chat? Is that a spell?
Day Two end of day vote count:
Visor -- 6(Renata, WInston Hughes, GHC, Choxorn, Arakhor, Sooh)
Sooh -- 5(Atheotes, Snerk, Lewwyn, Montmorency, Kcaz)
Lewwyn -- 1(Visor)
Atheotes -- 1(Csargo)
So that's a bad look for Snerk and an iffy one for Csargo (who was defending Visor at one point). We're not going to speak of what the other living people on Sooh at end of day does to my paranoia.
That's not true at all...
Montmorency
02-12-2017, 21:45
OK, we agree. Csargo will be blocked at any rate. gl gl
Can you invite me to mason chat? Is that a spell?
Sorry, we've taken it to a coffee shop outside Seattle. You need to know the barista.
That's not true at all...
It kinda is though.
It kinda is though.
:shrug:
I actually think that looks good for Csargo, I can't imagine both Visor and Csargo would stay away from the next highest lynch if they were both scum. Csargo even did vote for Sooh and then switched to atheotes, which really doesn't seem to make sense if he was Visor's last teammate.
On the other hand, the tally was 3 Visor, 2 Sooh, 1 Lewwyn (that would be Visor's vote) when he made his final post of the day, so he might have just been hoping that the town would go after Sooh and his teammate wouldn't have to save him. There were almost 20 hours left in the day when he left, but the tally didn't change until several hours after he made his final post. Even so, I'm really surprised he couldn't find time to show up at EoD and save himself.
Arakhor put Visor and Sooh into a tie late and then Sooh self-pres'd to break the tie, which looks good for Arakhor, bussing doesn't really make much sense in that spot.
True story, GH has discussed protecting me so maybe he dies and has more time to prepare his game. I've considered protecting him because I'm such a wimp that part of me wants to get out while the gettin's good. :p
Good luck mafia figuring out what we actually do.
Well you just spelled it out.
Also have the mafia even killed anyone?
Apparently not, though Sooh's broken vest would suggest that they did take at least one shot -- probably at Choxorn and redirected, maybe at her.
GeneralHankerchief
02-12-2017, 22:29
True story, GH has discussed protecting me so maybe he dies and has more time to prepare his game. I've considered protecting him because I'm such a wimp that part of me wants to get out while the gettin's good. :p
Good luck mafia figuring out what we actually do.
You told me you wouldn't say anything if I didn't! :bigcry:
Oops ...
I've betrayed my mason buddy. I feel terrible.
Well, that was exciting. Sooh was being scummy without actually having been corrupted.
My brain didn't quite revolve all the way around to the fact that if she was killing atheotes she probably wasn't making herself a godfather at the same time. Just as well.
Winston Hughes
02-13-2017, 01:23
Snerk looks bad from every angle.
Tone is within his scum meta.
Off wagon D1 and absent eod.
Awkward progression of Visor reads D2, and stayed on the Sooh wagon.
Blocked N2 when there was no scum kill.
Sooh's conviction he was scum over the N1 shenanigans (of which she was so suspicious that she shot Atheotes, even though his flipping town would be damning for her).
If you can show the awkward progression that'd be cool.
Winston Hughes
02-13-2017, 01:39
Didn't like that he argued for disregarding Sooh and Atheotes as lynch candidates today. So he essentially traded places with Winston for a place among my tier two suspects.
Like there's nothing else scummy about Visor at this point.
So going for the mechanical over the meaningful? Could be.
Winston Hughes
02-13-2017, 01:46
Feels like acknowledging Visor's a real suspect for the sake of appearances.
Snerk looks bad from every angle.
Tone is within his scum meta.
Off wagon D1 and absent eod.
Awkward progression of Visor reads D2, and stayed on the Sooh wagon.
Blocked N2 when there was no scum kill.
Sooh's conviction he was scum over the N1 shenanigans (of which she was so suspicious that she shot Atheotes, even though his flipping town would be damning for her).
I'm with you, Snerk is definitely the most likely scum at this point, from the awkward reads, to being off-wagon day 1 and voting Sooh day 2, to his weird night actions... Just everything about him screams "I'm a scumbag"
Fine. I had a BPV from the start of the game. After N1 I was told it was shattered. Then Snerk comes and tells everyone his action on me failed.
So I saved Choxorn with the redirect maybe? heh.
I'm with you, Snerk is definitely the most likely scum at this point, from the awkward reads, to being off-wagon day 1 and voting Sooh day 2, to his weird night actions... Just everything about him screams "I'm a scumbag"
100% agree.
Right then. Lewwyn, sound off: jail Csargo?
Renata and GH, Snerk is up to you. Snerk, sort it with them.
Arakhor could use a scan if anyone has one.
Sure I'll jail Csargo. I think scum is more likely Snerk, but if others are taking care of that?
Montmorency
02-13-2017, 03:54
In principle, I agree that Csargo doesn't look awful and Arakhor looks decent (D2 events tone and mechanically better for him than Csargo, per Choxorn's quotes), but since this is endgame I do believe Csargo should be blocked to whittle things down.
Arakhor, I think it's just good sense that a scan here would be helpful. He wouldn't be first for the lynch tomorrow (and rightly so), so more information earlier is good insurance. I don't know who if anyone can accomplish this, so I'll leave it up to the silent majority.
I agree that Snerk looks worst of everyone, and encourage anyone not targeting Csargo or Arakhor to do whatever they think they need to do to take out Snerk. I suspect that if both Snerk and Csargo are blocked, we don't even need to worry about kills, so deploy those jailings wisely. Few would shed tears if Snerk were to turn up dead, and if he uses self-protection then he isn't casting lynchproof for tomorrow. It should work out.
Personally, as I said I will be tracking. I said I would track Lewwyn, but there are a couple of good candidates for track seeing as we definitely have only one mafia scum left.
These are the dispositions for tonight.
GeneralHankerchief
02-13-2017, 18:13
Kind of feel bad for Sooh. She got a great role and then RL plus game circumstances didn't really allow her to have fun with it. Always a punch in the gut when that happens.
Revealing my night action now in case I'm too dead to tell you about it in a few minutes: I Jailblocked Snerk.
Deadline. No posting until resolution.
There will be a momentary delay. Expect at least 10-15m
No Posting
As your third night together comes to a close, each mage feels more relaxed than they had since this ordeal started. Everyone had lost friends. Some were lost to death. Some were lost to the knowledge that the image they presented was not their true self. Some were lost to corruption. Still, when the body is ill, that illness must be excised, and sometimes healthy flesh was the cost. Confident that they had it figured out the mages had laid plans for who would contain whom, and all expected to arise in the morning.
They were right. For the first time since the death of the Archmage, the night passed largely uneventfully. Despite the general confidence surrounding their survival, all of the mages seemed surprised when they once again convened in the courtyard that morning.
There were no deaths.
Day four has not yet started. No posting until all PM’s are sent and I post acknowledging the game has resumed.
Vote: Snerk
Did anyone else jailkeep anybody?
Day four ends in
All PM's are out. Posting may resume.
No Posting
As your third night together comes to a close, each mage feels more relaxed than they had since this ordeal started. Everyone had lost friends. Some were lost to death. Some were lost to the knowledge that the image they presented was not their true self. Some were lost to corruption. Still, when the body is ill, that illness must be excised, and sometimes healthy flesh was the cost. Confident that they had it figured out the mages had laid plans for who would contain whom, and all expected to arise in the morning.
They were right. For the first time since the death of the Archmage, the night passed largely uneventfully. Despite the general confidence surrounding their survival, all of the mages seemed surprised when they once again convened in the courtyard that morning.
There were no deaths.
Day four has not yet started. No posting until all PM’s are sent and I post acknowledging the game has resumed.
Vote: Snerk
Did anyone else jailkeep anybody?
A wave of residual magics left over from the ritual blasts Choxorn, rendering him mute.
Choxorn is mute for
Choxorn's vote on post #1286 does not count.
Sorry Choxorn. :)
My spell went fizz, probably because of Choxorn's jailkeep.
What's the matter Choxy baby, cat got your tongue? ~:)
GeneralHankerchief
02-13-2017, 21:38
What's the matter Choxy baby, cat got your tongue? ~:)
What's your take on the overall state of things?
What's your take on the overall state of things?
Well first of all they should never have made you General.
Winston Hughes
02-13-2017, 21:41
chox frozen scum
suggest portuguese fire drill
chox frozen scum
suggest portuguese fire drill
I have seen a security hologram... of him... killing Yuenglings strokes beard awkwardly
so he's probably hungover
Montmorency
02-13-2017, 22:06
Interesting night. I decided to keep it simple and watched Csargo to verify blockage. Fizzled. Sounds right?
And something else. Something weird I don't know what to do with, which scares me. This is so big that I don't want to bother sitting on it to see how the day develops, at this point...
Montmorency
02-13-2017, 22:07
Winston, quick, what were your results? What about Choxorn?
Montmorency
02-13-2017, 22:09
Updated list of claims (N1):
Monty: Commuted
Winston: Failed watch on Monty; can multicast
Arakhor: Watched Zack, no visitors
Snerk: Failed scan on Sooh; confirms existence of alignment spell
Zack: Scanned Winston non-corrupt
Lewwyn: Redirected from Choxorn to Sooh
Renata: Jailblocked Montmorency, no success
Atheotes: Watched Renata, only Al Sipsclar visited
Csargo: Scan ("Detect Corruption") on GH, not corrupt
Sooh: Protected Renata
Choxorn: Vigged Al Sipsclar
GH: Nothing impactful
BSmith (from Monty's deadscan N2): Scanned Winston non-corrupt
Al (From Atheotes' watch): Something targeting Renata
Visor: ???
Updated list of claims (N2):
Montmorency: Dead scan BSmith, BSmith scanned Winston uncorrupt N1
Zack: Scan Sooh, not corrupt
Choxorn: Watch Renata, no visitors
Csargo: No action
Snerk: Block Lewwyn, attempt failed
Arakhor: Manadrain atheotes 'for a low amount'
Lewwyn: Commuted/Invisibility
Renata: Blocked (JK?) Hankerchief
Winston Hughes: Watch GH (Renata and atheotes visited), block Snerk
Sooh: ???
GH: Nothing impactful, was JK'd by Renata anyway
atheotes (from Winston's watch): Something targeting GH
Montmorency
02-13-2017, 22:09
BLLEaAAaaAaSSsSEe
Winston Hughes
02-13-2017, 22:13
Winston, quick, what were your results?
I tracked Arakhor, but it fizzled.
What about Choxorn?
:laugh4:
GeneralHankerchief
02-13-2017, 22:15
Interesting night. I decided to keep it simple and watched Csargo to verify blockage. Fizzled. Sounds right?
And something else. Something weird I don't know what to do with, which scares me. This is so big that I don't want to bother sitting on it to see how the day develops, at this point...
A Balrog of Morgoth?
chox frozen scum
suggest portuguese fire drill
vote: Choxorn
Aye aye captain!
Winston, quick, what were your results? What about Choxorn?
Choxorn jailkept Snerk, revealed it last page before his tongue got cut out. I tried to do mean things to Snerk. Fizzled.
I tried to fizzle but it fizzled.
Montmorency
02-13-2017, 22:21
Well, you know how Zack...
doesn't like to be tinfoiled?
It's for a reason.
Remember how he claimed to be scanning?
Nothing but scanning?
It was an important job. Someone had to do it.
That's why Zack didn't know - couldn't know -
Al Sipsclar watched Renata N1. Atheotes visited.
kneeslapper
I tried to fizzle but it fizzled.
Who'd you try to murder?
Montmorency
02-13-2017, 22:24
I don't get it, Monty.
Deadscan was 2-for-1.
Let's go, everyone, any more results on Snerk, Csargo, and Arakhor?
Winston Hughes
02-13-2017, 22:25
Well, you know how Zack...
doesn't like to be tinfoiled?
It's for a reason.
Remember how he claimed to be scanning?
Nothing but scanning?
It was an important job. Someone had to do it.
That's why Zack didn't know - couldn't know -
Al Sipsclar watched Renata N1. Atheotes visited.
kneeslapper
:bow:
GeneralHankerchief
02-13-2017, 22:26
Deadscan was 2-for-1.
Let's go, everyone, any more results on Snerk, Csargo, and Arakhor?
Nothing of note on my end.
Word of warning though, if we keep JKing everyone we're probably not going to get many results. Unless everyone's fine with a super glacial pace, we're probably going to have to take some risks if we want these three resolved faster.
Montmorency
02-13-2017, 22:26
Nothing of note on my end.
Word of warning though, if we keep JKing everyone we're probably not going to get many results. Unless everyone's fine with a super glacial pace, we're probably going to have to take some risks if we want these three resolved faster.
Yeah, we're lynching one.
GeneralHankerchief
02-13-2017, 22:28
Vote: Snerk
Deadscan was 2-for-1.
Let's go, everyone, any more results on Snerk, Csargo, and Arakhor?
OK. What's that got to do with Zack?
Montmorency
02-13-2017, 22:29
OK. What's that got to do with Zack?
Sometimes, Zack just has to do with things.
You know what? My brain is fried. I'm going to try to forget you said anything.
A Balrog of Morgoth?
W (https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/none-shall-pass-2-game-thread-concluded.543924/page-25#post-13716561)ho would do that? (https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/none-shall-pass-game-thread-concluded.513049/page-77#post-12891045)
Nothing of note on my end.
Word of warning though, if we keep JKing everyone we're probably not going to get many results. Unless everyone's fine with a super glacial pace, we're probably going to have to take some risks if we want these three resolved faster.
Yeah, I didn't read it closely enough and that it was a standard JK (protect from death + roleblock). If I had read more closely and realized it made it so NO spells AT ALL could target them, I wouldn't have picked that power.
Or the alternative is we draw the game out indefinitely until the last mage gives up and concedes.
Winston Hughes
02-13-2017, 22:53
vote: Snerk
needs moar lolcat
Winston Hughes
02-13-2017, 23:36
Because what I wanted to do was a daytime ability apparently...So I chose to do nothing instead.
You had no other abilities, or you didn't feel the need to use any other abilities you may have had?
I didn't feel they were particularly useful at this moment in time.
What spells do you have, Csargo?
What spells do you have, Csargo?
The best spells. I didn't do anything Monty.
Winston tried to watch me and it fizzled? That's surprising, as I didn't use a spell to get that effect.
As it happens, none at all. I simply forgot to send in a night action as I was busy and thought I'd send it in "later".
(That's actually the first time I've ever forgotten to send in a valid night action, I believe.)
I jailed Csargo.
Vote: Snerk
Montmorency
02-14-2017, 02:50
N3 Claim List
Monty: watch Csargo, fizzled; dead scan Al Sipsclar watching Renata N1, atheotes visited
Choxorn: Jail Snerk
Renata: Tried to do mean things to Snerk, fizzled
Zack: Jailed someone?
Winston: Tracked Arakhor, fizzled
GH: Nothing of note
Csargo: No action
Arakhor: No action
Lewwyn: Jailed Csargo
Snerk:
Zack, can you clarify your action?
Strange that Arakhor claims no action while Winston claims failed track. Did you block Arakhor, Zack?
What spells do you have, Csargo?
I have a watch, jail, and stasis.
Montmorency
02-14-2017, 03:43
Stasis?! What's that?
You must have started with 7-12 mana.
Stasis?! What's that?
You must have started with 7-12 mana.
I can use it if you want...
Montmorency
02-14-2017, 05:52
I can use it if you want...
what is it
what is it
It just ends the day phase without anything happening.
Montmorency
02-14-2017, 06:08
Save, uh, save it for when town is going to be lynched.
That sounds like a town ability...
Montmorency
02-14-2017, 06:52
A stronger lynchproof, I guess. Maybe. At the very least, it must take a lot of mana to deploy. Unless we haven't seen his final form.
Winston Hughes
02-14-2017, 11:46
Maybe you all are scum...
Snerk/Arakhor/Csargo - corrupted mage wannabes
Renata/GH - overconfident lovers (evil)
Lewwyn/Monty/Zack - franchise crossover villains (mlp:fim?)
choxorn - Serial Killer II: This Time It's Actually Quite Scary
GeneralHankerchief
02-14-2017, 12:55
Renata/GH - overconfident lovers (evil)
We're actually thinking about drafting you into a secret project we're planning, so easy on the draw there, buddy.
So when Winston tinfoils it's just cute, eh? Tsk tsk tsk.. :no:
GeneralHankerchief
02-14-2017, 13:43
So when Winston tinfoils it's just cute, eh? Tsk tsk tsk.. :no:
Winston's was clearly not serious. You sounded like you legitimately wanted to advance the argument.
So, since you apparently don't trust me enough to use my extensive knowledge for the good of the academy, do you have any views on whom I should for today?
GeneralHankerchief
02-14-2017, 15:47
It just ends the day phase without anything happening.
I guess this explains the day ability that Csargo alluded to a couple phases ago.
Out of every word I could have messed up, I managed to miss out the important verb. :rolleyes:
...do you have any views on whom I should vote for today?
I think you should judge for yourself, no?
Day four ends in
Current Vote Tally (accurate to post 1342)
Snerk -- 3 (GHC, Winston Hughes, Lewwyn)
Choxorn -- 1 (Renata)
No Vote -- 6 (Arakhor, Choxorn, Csargo, Kcaz, Montmorency, Snerk)
Given the decrease in conversation, I am open to reducing the length of the next game day should that day arrive. Please PM me either Reduce, or Stay The Same before the end of this day phase.
Choxorn may now speak as well.
GeneralHankerchief
02-14-2017, 21:07
I'm assuming by "Extend" you mean "Reduce"?
Vote: Snerk
For real this time!
Welcome back choxorn. :)
vote: Csargo
Partly being contrary, partly why do you ever give a stop-day abilty to a townie, partly that he claims to have done nothing for two nights straight despite sitting on an incredibly valuable watch spell.
It could well be Snerk -- heck it probably is given his lack of cooperation with giving his action today -- but given the mislynches we probably have to spare I'm not too fussed either way.
I'm assuming by "Extend" you mean "Reduce"?
Not sure what you are talking about. Clearly it says reduce not extend. Geeze.....
*clouds gathers*
*room darkens*
*lightning cracks*
*voice darkens*
http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/nightshadebooks/images/c/cf/Evil_wizard_by_danilolatino-d306w01.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130501195623
Foolish council! With you foolish uncorrupt ways! I pity you wretched souls who will walk through life without ever tasting the sweet sweet wine of corruption. The uncorrupt way is a bent and miserabel crawl through life, never living up to your real potential. And don't get me started on the music. Your uncorrupt music is terrible!! With your happy clappy naive themes. You haven't lived until you've had a flagon of corrupt ale and rocked out to some sick corrupt beats. Also corrupt chicks are so much better than uncorrupt ones..
You will never be able to destroy corruption. It will always linger within the mages, sleeping, biding it's time. Until it's reawakening when it will claim victory for pure corruption and the end of the council once and for all.
Oh and lynches are silly, let us dispense with such foolishness. cast: STASIS
And as for tonight. Let's just say there is a surprise in store. There can be no victory over the all powerful might of corruption.
Corruption rules, the council drools!
Oh, well then. vote: Snerk
I'd like the honor of being NKed. Can you arrange it?
I'd like the honor of being NKed. Can you arrange it?
No, sorry.
Funnily enough, Snerk has form as being the last remaining mafioso. He got to chew the scenery in Masque of Death too. ~:)
I always appreciate a good bit of scenery chewing, and this is pretty good.
The oppression of the Sith corrupted will never return! YOU. HAVE. LOST.
Funnily enough, Snerk has form as being the last remaining mafioso. He got to chew the scenery in Masque of Death too. ~:)
Lol true dat. But IIRC I had a lot more wiggle room in that game than I ever had here. But I guess that's a topic for the post game chat.
The oppression of the Sith corrupted will never return! YOU. HAVE. LOST.
Lost? Only a Sith corrupt mage deals in absolutes..
GeneralHankerchief
02-14-2017, 23:56
*clouds gathers*
*room darkens*
*lightning cracks*
*voice darkens*
http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/nightshadebooks/images/c/cf/Evil_wizard_by_danilolatino-d306w01.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130501195623
Foolish council! With you foolish uncorrupt ways! I pity you wretched souls who will walk through life without ever tasting the sweet sweet wine of corruption. The uncorrupt way is a bent and miserabel crawl through life, never living up to your real potential. And don't get me started on the music. Your uncorrupt music is terrible!! With your happy clappy naive themes. You haven't lived until you've had a flagon of corrupt ale and rocked out to some sick corrupt beats. Also corrupt chicks are so much better than uncorrupt ones..
You will never be able to destroy corruption. It will always linger within the mages, sleeping, biding it's time. Until it's reawakening when it will claim victory for pure corruption and the end of the council once and for all.
Oh and lynches are silly, let us dispense with such foolishness. cast: STASIS
And as for tonight. Let's just say there is a surprise in store. There can be no victory over the all powerful might of corruption.
Corruption rules, the council drools!
10/10, much better than lolcatting.
Winston Hughes
02-14-2017, 23:56
I voted "Extend".
I voted "Extend".
I think we found the scum, guys!
Is there a reason not to end day early? Assuming Jabbz is available of course. :beam:
*clouds gathers*
*room darkens*
*lightning cracks*
*voice darkens*
http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/nightshadebooks/images/c/cf/Evil_wizard_by_danilolatino-d306w01.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130501195623
Foolish council! With you foolish uncorrupt ways! I pity you wretched souls who will walk through life without ever tasting the sweet sweet wine of corruption. The uncorrupt way is a bent and miserabel crawl through life, never living up to your real potential. And don't get me started on the music. Your uncorrupt music is terrible!! With your happy clappy naive themes. You haven't lived until you've had a flagon of corrupt ale and rocked out to some sick corrupt beats. Also corrupt chicks are so much better than uncorrupt ones..
You will never be able to destroy corruption. It will always linger within the mages, sleeping, biding it's time. Until it's reawakening when it will claim victory for pure corruption and the end of the council once and for all.
Oh and lynches are silly, let us dispense with such foolishness. cast: STASIS
And as for tonight. Let's just say there is a surprise in store. There can be no victory over the all powerful might of corruption.
Corruption rules, the council drools!
As Snerk casts the stasis spell, the wind stills. Sounds dampen. Smells become less substantial. Even with their highly trained minds, every mage present has to bring all of their focus to bear just to speak. The magics necessary to enact the Ritual of Purification would be impossible under these circumstances.
The game will continue until the allotted end of phase, but there will be no lynch this day.
Well all righty. I say we all use all our mana burn on him if we have it (like I tried to do last night!) and if anybody's got a vig they use that too. If he can do something about that, oh well.
Winston Hughes
02-15-2017, 01:12
I think we found the scum, guys!
If they'd just told me the cool stuff about corruption in the first place, I might have been tempted.
But it's clear now that the price of all that sex, wine and country music is you look really suspicious and you can't shoot for shit.
ugh really
can't we just end it, seems pointlessly tedious to drag it out :/
GeneralHankerchief
02-15-2017, 02:27
ugh really
can't we just end it, seems pointlessly tedious to drag it out :/
Agree with this, assuming Snerk's our final mafioso.
ugh really
can't we just end it, seems pointlessly tedious to drag it out :/
Yeah seriously there's no point to spending the next 18 hours staring at Snerk and being like, "sup?"
GeneralHankerchief
02-15-2017, 02:32
Snerk
sup?
Montmorency
02-15-2017, 06:06
So is this night phase, or are we literally waiting for the day phase to end with no lynch before we can do anything?
If anyone can vig, say so now, because I probably just jail Snerk tonight.
If anyone can scan, just say so.
Also, if Snerk is scum, why does Csargo have the stasis power? Could we really have Csargo-Snerk, or 5 mafia + 1 SK in a game with 10 townies?
I mean, our extra special performance wouldn't negate the inherent imbalance if that were the case.
Montmorency
02-15-2017, 06:07
Csargo, have you a comment?
Day four ends without a sound. Despondent each member of the guild wanders into the holes for what they hope is last time. Despite his desperate attempts during the night, Snerk is unable to accomplish even one killing. In the history of Mage Council Uprisings this may go down as the least successful.
As the sun rises above the horizon, the mages gather in the courtyard only to see Snerk waiting for them, standing atop a pyre of his own crafting. He waits calmly for the last of you to arrive, then releases a blast of hellish flame into the wood, consuming it. Snerk is consumed shortly thereafter.
Snerk has lynched himself. He was a
Corrupted Mage
The remaining members of the council watch with a mix of disgust and respect as Snerk's form fades to ash. What was once a council of 17 now lies in ruins, only nine remaining. Still, like the wheat separated from the chaff, these remaining mages are strengthened and reinvigorated by their trial. More than ever before their mission to protect humanity from itself and the forces of corruption drives their vision. They will rebuild, they will recover, and they will resist, until the need is no longer there.
Town Wins
Scum QT: https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/M9pRWhnh3iQwm
SK QT: https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/qD6yhK78Y8WM
Mason QT: https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/PWsvDJQaGTpf
Dead QT: https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/ZetkkVuWDAMK
Master spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1aYu1ntViDVe8ofdSiK1mFPxQkBIhct_A-S_9l7RYbNo/edit?usp=sharing
Please note not everything on that sheet is 100% accurate. There were some changes made along the way that didn't make it into the document, especially regarding power distribution and the specifics of various roles. The Spell List, Roles, Spellbook, and Action pages are completely accurate to my knowledge. Roles listed every available spell players COULD get along with their mana totales, spellbook is what they chose, though I did subtract spells from them as they were used.
Scum PM:
Greetings Dark One. The time is at last ripe. The powers you and your fellow Corrupted Mages have spent so long working for are nearly at hand. All that stands in the way of you and the final ritual is the Archmage and the council of mages, of which you and your fellows are members. The fact that they know naught of your presence, or of your plans is of great advantage to you. Of even greater advantage is the fact that you four, unlike every other mage in existence, have shared knowledge of your private stock of spells. As a result, the four of you each have access to more magics than any other mage, including spells only usable by one who has gone through the rituals of corruption.
That fact is somewhat tempered however. As you have gained power going through the ritual of corruption, you have also reaped a great cost. With all but the final ritual behind you, your connection with more traditional magics have been weakened. As a result, it takes substantially more effort to cast the same spells. All is not lost however, as you can cast corrupted spells with ease, and each night one of you is able to summon the Hellfire Blaze, a ritual that costs no mana, leaving you to place your resources elsewhere while still having the ability to take the fight to those who would oppose you, if they but knew you were a threat.
As day faded to dusk, you and your brothers prepared for your strike. Using highly challenging ritual, you seal every door in the Keep except those you wish to utilize. You gather together, and then sought out the chambers of the Archmage. As four against one, you knew this was going to be an easy battle.
You have never been more mistaken in your life. Though surprised, the Archmage responded with an alacrity that nearly ended your plans before they could truly start. The battle raged for many minutes, and only slowly did the Archmage lose ground. Finally he cast his final spell, and then slumped to the ground. Bereft of all magics yourselves, you simply sat and watched him as his life force slowly left. His gaze was a combination of disappointment and condemnation, and despite your new allegiance you still found it unnerving.
Eventually he took his final breath, after which one of your brethren stepped forward and, using a knife, ensured the deed was done.
Your plans however needed to be changed. You had expected this to be an easy kill, instead it had used up every bit of your power. Instead of being able to move through the Keep and kill the rest of the mages, you now instead would be forced to return to your rooms and prepare anew for the upcoming days. Victory would still be yours, if you are worthy. As the moon rises, you assume a meditative pose, and for what would hopefully not be the last time, open yourself to the arcane.
You are a Corrupted Mage.
You win when you have defeated all members of the Council of Mages, or nothing can stop you from doing so.
Each night, one of you may cast the Hellfire Blaze ritual. This does not cost mana, but does prevent you from engaging in any other castings. You may also select spells from both the Corrupted and Traditional spell lists up to your mana total. Due to your transition towards corruption, you must spend twice the mana to select or cast traditional spells as you would otherwise. Your corrupted nature also renders the Grease spell ineffective, so while you may memorize it, casting it will accomplish nothing. Your corrupted nature also prevents you from controlling the Wild Magics spell in the same way. You may choose 13 (14) Mana points worth of the following spells, and may only memorize one instance of each. You must report to me through PM which spells you are choosing before 1200 PST (2000 GMT) on February the fourth.
Spell List follows
Traditional Spells
1 - 1 (1) Mana Burn – Remove mana from both the target and the caster. If this results in a value of -1 or less, it kills that mage. Casting mage may choose to burn between one and five mana. (Unique Role)
1 - 2 (1) Phantasmal Stalker – Summons an extra-planer beast, visible only to the caster, that will follow the target and report on everyone they visit. (Tracker)
1 - 3 (1) Phantom Eye – Creates an invisible eye that follows the target throughout the night, reporting on everyone who visits them. (Watcher)
2 - 1 (2) Wild Magic s– Creates a mystical connection between two mages. Any spells cast upon the first will instead affect the second. (Redirector)
2 - 2 (2) Corporeal Shield – Places a shield formed of your very life force to guard another mage. Any magics that would kill them, will instead be intercepted by you, allowing you to die in their place. (Bodyguard)
2 - 3 (2) Vitality – "Fills the caster with additional vitality, allowing them to temporarily survive wounds that would normally kill them. The blow will still be fatal, but they will survive halfway through the following day. When cast, this spell lasts for two days. (Tough Guy)
"
2 - 4 (2) Wane – Start the process of fading from this world to the next. During this two day transition, the mage is invulnerable to all spell effects, and is unable to cast any spells themselves. During the first day, the player is not capable of mentioning the spell in any way, lest it instantly collapse and instantly kill the mage instead. By the start of the second day however, the process is complete, and that restriction is lifted. The mage will pass at the end of the second day, and as such does not receive a vote. (Modified Tree Stump)
2 - 5 (2) Warp – Displaces the target from this plane of existence. All spells sent towards or from the target are ineffective. (Jailer)
3 - 1 (4) Commune with the Dead – After this spell is performed, for two nights in a row the caster may focus on a dead mage, and determine what spells they cast the night they died, and any results they would have received from those spells. The process involved in lynching renders this spell ineffective. (Pathologist)
3 - 2 (4) Invisibility – Caster cannot be seen to be targeted by any abilities. (Hider)
3 - 3 (4) Magic Mouth – Augments the voice of the caster giving them more weight in the following vote. (Judge)
3 - 4 (4) Magic Shell – Provides a magical sphere of protection that will block lethal spells cast upon the target for one night. (Doctor)
3 - 5 (4) Quintessence Reliquary – Stores the soul of a caster for a single night, making them unkillable. (Bulletproof)
3 - 6 (4) Silence – Removes the ability of the target to cast that night. (Roleblocker)
4 - 1 (6) Detect Corruption This spell sees into the soul of the target and reveals signs of corruption. (Cop)
4 - 2 (6) Grease – Covers the casters body in a thin nearly invisible layer of fluid that prevents them from being bound against their will for the following day. This renders the caster immune to lynching. (Lynchproof)
4 - 3 (6) Incineration – Engulfs the target in a blast of fire, killing them. (Vigiliante)
5 - 1 (8) Stasis– Casting this spell affects reality, temporarily interfereing with the relationship between cause and effect. Until moonrise, no one can be killed. (Governor)
5 - 2 (10)Veritas – This extremely powerful spell can be cast at night, and will give the caster the total number of corrupted that were involved in the previous days lynching. (Unique Role)
Corrupted Spells
0 - 1 (0) Hellfire Blaze Kills the targeted mage. (Faction Kill)
0 - 2 (2) Empower Cast in conjunction with other spells to allow the targets spell to penetrate protective magics. (Strongarm)
0 - 3 (2) Ventriloquism Cast in conjunction with other spells, this allows the targets spell to appear to come from nowhere, making it impossible to track the spells source. (Partial Ninja)
"0 - 4
" (2) Static Field Cast in conjunction with other spells, this prevents the target's spell from being traced to its destination. (Partial Ninja)
"0 - 5
" (2) See Invisible Cast in conjunction with other spells, this allows the targets spell to find those who are invisible. (Unique Role)
0 - 6 (6) Mask of Mirrors This spell makes the caster appears to be the exact same alignment as any mages scanning them. (Godfather)
SK PM:
Greetings Esteemed one. As per our agreement everything on our end is in place. The governments of the three greatest nations on this continent are at the brink of collapse, and are more than ready to bow to one who has both the will and the power to save them. Once you have met your side of the accord and…. retired, the remaining mages of the Council, we will support you in assuming your place as Emperor.
With Great Humility
Brax Thorson
Head of the Guild of Merchants.
The guild of Merchants approached you because of both your gifts, and your flaws. Without a doubt you are the most talented mage on the council, more powerful even than the Archmage. With that power however comes great pride, pride so strong that no other mage would be willing to follow you. This of course makes you the perfect individual for a coup. In preparation for this, the Guild of Merchants have shared with you an ancient spell Flame Tongue. It performs in a manner similar to Incinerate, but is much easier to cast. This, combined with your great talents which allow you to not only hold far more magics than your fellow mages, but to also under the right circumstances be able to cast two spells at once, will pave your road to victory, and finally place you where you belong. At the top.
As the day ends you once again read through this missive. Content with how your plans are coming to fruition, you take one last calming breath, then walk to the door ready to face the Archmage. The moment you attempt to open the door however, you realize something is very, very wrong. From the center of the keep you can sense a great battle. The door itself is sealed, and you can do nothing but stand frustrated flailing with your magics against the seal on the door. Eventually the battle wanes, and you tire. Upon calm examination you realize the spell on your door will end with the following dawn. These events will mean changes to your plans, but your goals remain the same. You will acquire the power you deserve, regardless of who stands in your way. Calming yourself, you sink back into a meditative pose and await the dawn.
You are a Betrayer. (Serial Killer)
You win when you are the last mage standing, or nothing can stop you from doing so.
Given your rebellion, you cannot admit to your goals or the entire guild will turn against you instantly. If you in any way come out as a Serial Killer you will be modkilled. What constitutes coming out as a serial killer is at the GM’s discretion so please don’t push the line. As part of your preparations for this coup, you have a shield that will stop one fatal spell from hitting you, which will last for one full day and night (1 shot bulletproof applied for the first 72 hours of the game, until the start of day 2).
Each night you may cast a single spell or two spells with a combined cost of no more than ten points. The spells must also be of different tiers. You may memorize no more than two copies of any spell tiers one to three, and only one of tier for and five. There is no need to spend memorization points on Flame Tongue, and you may cast it as long as you have sufficient mana to do so. Casting it does cost 4 mana, and counts both as one of your spells for that night, but also towards the total of 10 maximum mana you can use in one night. You may choose up to 44 points worth of spells within the above restrictions, from the following list.
Spell List
1 - 1 (1) Mana Burn – Remove mana from both the target and the caster. If this results in a value of -1 or less, it kills that mage. Casting mage may choose to burn between one and five mana.(Unique Role)
1 - 2 (1) Phantasmal Stalker – Summons an extra-planer beast, visible only to the caster, that will follow the target and report on everyone they visit. (Tracker)
1 - 3 (1) Phantom Eye – Creates an invisible eye that follows the target throughout the night, reporting on everyone who visits them. (Watcher)
2 - 1 (2) Wild Magic s– Creates a mystical connection between two mages. Any spells cast upon the first will instead affect the second. (Redirector)
2 - 2 (2) Corporeal Shield – Places a shield formed of your very life force to guard another mage. Any magics that would kill them, will instead be intercepted by you, allowing you to die in their place. (Bodyguard)
2 - 3 (2) Vitality – "Fills the caster with additional vitality, allowing them to temporarily survive wounds that would normally kill them. The blow will still be fatal, but they will survive halfway through the following day. When cast, this spell lasts for two days. (Tough Guy)
2 - 4 (2) Warp – Displaces the target from this plane of existence. All spells sent towards or from the target are ineffective. (Jailer)
3 - 1 (4) Commune with the Dead – After this spell is performed, for two nights in a row the caster may focus on a dead mage, and determine what spells they cast the night they died, and any results they would have received from those spells. The process involved in lynching renders this spell ineffective. (Pathologist)
3 -2 (4) Magic Mouth – Augments the voice of the caster giving them more weight in the following vote. (Judge)
3 - 3 (4) Magic Shell – Provides a magical sphere of protection that will block lethal spells cast upon the target for one night. (Doctor)
3 - 4 (4) Silence – Removes the ability of the target to cast that night. (Roleblocker)
3 - 5 (4) Flame Tongue Creates a stream of flames that engulf and kill the target. (Vigilante)
4 - 1 (6) Detect Corruption This spell sees into the soul of the target and reveals signs of corruption. (Cop)
5 - 1 (10) Veritas – This extremely powerful spell can be cast at night, and will give the caster the total number of corrupted that were involved in the previous days lynching. (Unique Role)
Mason PM:
You awake to an odd sensation you cannot quite describe. Your head hurts, and there is a low sound in the background like a river rushing through a narrow canyon. As you sit up and wait for the pounding in your skull to stop, you realize that you’re hearing everything twice. You even heard that realization twice. Confused you then realize, you heard it in two different voices.
Before your shock has a chance to become panic, a new voice breaks through the background noise, and it is instantly recognizable as that of the Archmage. It does however feel weak, and distant.
“Renata? GeneralHandkerchief? Can you hear me?”
There is a slight pause, but before you (either you) can respond your master continues.
“Time, it’s always time. Never enough. Listen carefully. Last night my chambers were invaded, and I was assailed by strange magics. There was certainly more than one individual in the room, but how many more I cannot tell you. They have also succeded in sealing off large amounts of the keep, which I believe was to help them, but may instead be their downfall. One of my greatest fears has been realized, some among you have been delving into forbidden realms of magic, and that group poses a grave threat not only to our Council, but to our world. Even I could not fight them, but I was able to seal away a small part of my consciousness and magics before I fell to their assault.
“These I transfer to you, my two servants that most bear my trust, and along with them a bond to each other that will allow you to share thoughts. With these tools I give you this charge. Find those who dabble in corruption. Stop them whatever the cost. Do not allow the fine works of our guild to be turned against the people of these lands that have trusted us for so long. Do not allow all we have done to be for naught.”
With this the voice and the noise retreat to the back of your mind. What stays however is an array of spells, and an intimate connection with your new counterpart. You both gather your collective thoughts, steel yourself against what is to come and examine the seal on your doors. It doesn’t take long to realize that the seal will dissipate with the dawn. Realizing there is nothing you can do until then, you clear your minds, and seek the mystic gateways to your magics, and meditate until dawn.
You are a Mindlinked Council Member. (Mason)
You win when all threats to the Council have been eliminated. Given the dire nature of this conflict, at least one Council Member must survive, or the world will suffer greatly.
As part of a Mindlinked pair, you will share a QT with your partner, and the assurance of the Archmage that both of you are loyal to the Council’s cause. The nature of the Archmage’s intrusion on your mind has removed many spells matrices from your memory completely, to the point where you only know that you have forgotten something important. It has also limited the mystical pathways in your mind, limiting the number of spells you can cast. You may select up to 11 (12) points worth of spells from the following list, with no restrictions other than total mana count. You may cast one spell per night, as long as you have the mana to do so.
Spell List
Tier - Spell Number (Mana Cost) Spell Name - Spell Effect (Equivilant Role)
1 - 1 (1) Mana Burn – Remove mana from both the target and the caster. If this results in a value of -1 or less, it kills that mage. Casting mage may choose to burn between one and five mana.(Unique Role)
2 - 1 (2) Wild Magic s– Creates a mystical connection between two mages. Any spells cast upon the first will instead affect the second. (Redirector)
2 - 2 (2) Vitality – "Fills the caster with additional vitality, allowing them to temporarily survive wounds that would normally kill them. The blow will still be fatal, but they will survive halfway through the following day. When cast, this spell lasts for two days. (Tough Guy)
2 - 3 (2) Warp – Displaces the target from this plane of existence. All spells sent towards or from the target are ineffective. (Jailer)
3 - 1 (4) Invisibility – Caster cannot be seen to be targeted by any abilities. (Hider)
3 - 2 (4) Magic Shell – Provides a magical sphere of protection that will block lethal spells cast upon the target for one night. (Doctor)
3 - 3 (4) Quintessence Reliquary – Stores the soul of a caster for a single night, making them unkillable. (Bulletproof)
Hunter PM:
Before you even realize you are awake, years of training confirm you are safe in your room, that you are uninjured, that your magics are stable, and that something is very wrong. Without making any movements that would betray your awakened status, without tightening a single muscle or even changing your breathing pattern, you reach out with your senses to determine what aroused you so violently. After a few moments you hone in on distant noises echoing throughout the stone halls of the Mages Keep. There is a massive magical battle occurring in the center of the keep. In the Archmage’s chambers.
Suppressing your anger you rise from your bed. The old mage is a harsh taskmaster, but he took a young nearly feral boy and brought him into his home. He taught you to read, to think, and later to access your own innate abilities and conjure great magics. While he is not your friend or your family, he certainly was closer to both than anyone else you have ever met. Now he might be at risk, and now you are enraged beyond anything you thought possible.
You rush to the door only to find it sealed. Taking a deep breath you analyze the seal only to realize it is beyond your powers to remove. Still, it will not last long, perhaps only until dawn. Calming yourself, you gather your thoughts and prepare your spells, you pause for a moment, then remove another book from a hidden drawer in the wall.
The spell you read is one of your own creation, something that could only come from a mind that had spent so much time working as a thing of nature, operating below conscious thought. The cost for the spell is high, and the spell itself terrible in nature. Still, the Archmage may have fallen, and if so, he must be avenged. If this is the way that it must happen, so be it.
You are a Vengeful Mage (Hunter, Town Aligned).
You win when all threats to the Council have been eliminated. Given the dire nature of this conflict, at least one Council Member must survive, or the world will suffer greatly.
Your role has a few unique features. 1. By enacting the Retribution spell, you can pick someone to kill when you are killed. It is unblockable, will be maintained until your death, and the cost is only extracted when it fires. 2. If you drop below 8 mana, you will be unable to cast their retribution spell upon death. 3. You may cast a second spell on any given night for the cost of both spells plus an additional 3 mana. Spell must be of a different tier. Due to your wild nature, you do not memorize spells, but rather have unlimited castings for all spells in your book, as long as they have sufficient mana. You have a total of 23 mana, high for a mage, and know the following spells in addition to Retribution.
Tier - Spell Number (Mana Cost) Spell Name - Spell Effect (Equivilant Role)
Spell List
1 - 1 (1) Phantasmal Stalker – Summons an extra-planer beast, visible only to the caster, that will follow the target and report on everyone they visit. (Tracker)
1 - 2 (1) Phantom Eye – Creates an invisible eye that follows the target throughout the night, reporting on everyone who visits them. (Watcher)
3 - 1 (4) Commune with the Dead – After this spell is performed, for two nights in a row the caster may focus on a dead mage, and determine what spells they cast the night they died, and any results they would have received from those spells. The process involved in lynching renders this spell ineffective. (Pathologist)
3 - 2 (4) Magic Mouth – Augments the voice of the caster giving them more weight in the following vote. (Judge)
3 - 3 (4) Silence – Removes the ability of the target to cast that night. (Roleblocker)
Town PM:
Like so many others in the tower, you awake to an awareness of utter chaos. You can hear the sounds and feel the effect of a large magical battle occurring somewhere near the center of the Keep. Leaping from your bed you rush towards the door to defend your brothers, only to find it completely immovable. Reaching out with your magics you try to force it, only to find it is blocked by a power that dwarfs your own.
You are somewhat relieved to find the spell is already unraveling however, and that it should completely dissipate by dawn. The feel of the spell disturbs your senses. You recognize many of the patterns contained with it as being identical to those you yourself use, but others are completely alien. It is that moment that you realize your brotherhood has been betrayed from within.
Reaching back to your training you calm yourself. Accepting that there is nothing you can do at the moment, you assume a meditate pose and reflect on the magics you have available to yourself. The following days will be trying, and you must arm yourself for a battle where wit and wisdom will be more important than strength of spell. You lose yourself in meditation, and await the dawn.
You are a Guild Member (Vanilla town with access to one shot abilities)
You win when all threats to the Council have been eliminated. Given the dire nature of this conflict, at least one Council Member must survive, or the world will suffer greatly.
Regular mages had access to a random list of spells (Noted on the Roles tab of the Master Sheet) that they had to choose from, and a fairly random amount of mana.
This was enjoyable to host, thank you folks. I only wish it hadn't been such a steamroller, as I didn't get a good chance to evaluate the setup. After congratulations I'd like to open the thread up to discussions of balance. First and foremost I know that I had invisible and warp mixed up as far as costs. Someone pointed that out to me after I sent out roles but it was too late to change it. All other criticisms are welcome.
Hopefully this left you guys with a good impression of my hosting. Following GHC's game I'd like to host another, and I'll be straight up with you, it's a bastard setup. I think however it's a bastard setup that you guys will like. Hopefully you'll trust me to run it. I'll do final adjustments to the front page, but I'm off to bed. Good night folks, and well played all.
GG all. Sorry for playing like shit, Jabbz, team.
I feel like I'd have some comments on the overall balance of the setup and inherent design, but I'll leave it for now I think.
Do want to praise the timely updates/responses, flavour and uniqueness of the setup, its certainly interesting.
Thanks for hosting.
Wp town.
Actually, WP does not do that town justice. Everyone that was part of the town played amazingly. GH terrified me, Renata was great too, Monty was also amazing, Lew and Zack too, and I'm sure I'm forgetting more names. Getting W/W wagons D1 was incredible, then ignoring the cleared peek on Sooh to get the SK. I don't blame Snerk at all for conceding, he was in an unwinnable situation.
Montmorency
02-15-2017, 07:07
Town is definitely the master.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Lw2vQOlXds
There were some who contended that working in public was inviting the Mafia to outmaneuver us, and generally this would be correct, but for this game I quickly came to realize that the aggressive brute force approach would be the most appropriate and successful, given that everyone was empowered with abilities and the mafia had their back broken in the first round. In fact, I have had experience in the advantages and disadvantages of this approach. In 2012, Jarema's time-travel game, I was the strongest town role and announced it early. I was arrogant. The game went on for a while, and having continuously failed to catch a single scum, it ended even as I tried to rally the Town - flawless Mafia victory. At every step, I had gone wrong, and the scum ruthlessly turned it to their advantage. This was the very worst Town defeat I had ever participated in or witnessed, and I had been its author.
In an interesting parallelism, here Sooh was a lone SK hoping to turn the death of the Mafia to her advantage, whereas in the 2012 game Pizza had been scum who didn't know his partners, who could only rejoin his team after establishing contact. And that he did, using his prior infiltration of my inner circle to dominate all parts of the game. So in defeating Sooh I take vicarious victory over Pizza?
So the worm has finally turned. My vengeance is complete. Feels good.
Oh, and I forgot, great job on the flavour! I really really enjoy the long paragraphs of description.
Montmorency
02-15-2017, 07:39
Zack and Winston let GH, Renata, and I take up the brunt of the work after D1, and admittedly I at times was unnerved by their aloofness.
The scum definitely had some strong powers:
0 - 2 (2) Empower Cast in conjunction with other spells to allow the targets spell to penetrate protective magics. (Strongarm)
0 - 3 (2) Ventriloquism Cast in conjunction with other spells, this allows the targets spell to appear to come from nowhere, making it impossible to track the spells source. (Partial Ninja)
"0 - 4
" (2) Static Field Cast in conjunction with other spells, this prevents the target's spell from being traced to its destination. (Partial Ninja)
"0 - 5
" (2) See Invisible Cast in conjunction with other spells, this allows the targets spell to find those who are invisible. (Unique Role)
0 - 6 (6) Mask of Mirrors This spell makes the caster appears to be the exact same alignment as any mages scanning them. (Godfather)
Those could have broken any town protective or investigative ability, if used well. On the other hand, after going down to a single member after the first night, that was no longer possible. But beginning with the assumption that such catastrophe would not befall the scum, limiting their individual mana-pools to 14 (I had 14 mana in fact) was correct for balance.
Of course the dead QT still has people listing me as their first choice for scum. :rolleyes:
Thanks for hosting Jabbz.:2thumbsup:
Zack and Winston let GH, Renata, and I take up the brunt of the work after D1, and admittedly I at times was unnerved by their aloofness.
I was fairly busy with other stuff and the situation seemed well in hand. Surprised to see I had the second-most posts in the game.
Montmorency
02-15-2017, 08:17
Of course the dead QT still has people listing me as their first choice for scum. :rolleyes:
Maybe it's because you insisted on voting without a "Vote:" tag. That's pretty evil.
Of course the dead QT still has people listing me as their first choice for scum. :rolleyes:
I never did that :P
atheotes
02-15-2017, 08:23
Well played town!
Thanks for hosting Jabbz. flavor and set up were very good.
W/W wagons d1 killed it for the scum.
atheotes
02-15-2017, 08:26
Of course the dead QT still has people listing me as their first choice for scum. :rolleyes:
that was because of BSmith claiming something...
iirc, i was town reading you while alive and scum reading Winston partly because of his shade on you.
Montmorency
02-15-2017, 08:27
I never did that :P
Atheotes and BSmith did, as townie dead.
GH (in the QT), why so much tinfoil about me being a liar? If I claim I won't do something at night, then I'm not doing it. If I claim I will do something from a set of options, then at most I will go a bit lateral.
I only outright lie when I'm third party (or Mafia, I guess), and even then it's usually only a specific small thing (i.e. town victory is not exclusive to my win conditions :grin:).
Even when I was outright serial killer, I barely even hid the fact, went on to kill last Mafia, and begged townies to spare me at LYLO for my good works. My most established meta is my pro-town bias.
atheotes
02-15-2017, 08:27
Monty, i did not think you were a novice mage. I had 19 mana :laugh4:
Heh, Glad that ended before it got drug out.
GG everybody. I think townies just looked really townie this game. No mislynches! 2 Double scum wagons!
Montmorency
02-15-2017, 09:30
Commune with the Dead, or Pathologist (3-1): Most townies were offered this spell, but I'm the only one who used it. BSmith and Choxorn also started with it. Definitely a specialist spell.
Vitality, or Tough Guy (2-3): Half the town was offered this one, but it's arguably the least-useful spell available. Why would anyone cast this when they could be doing anything else, or even nothing? It's only made possible by the ruleset prohibiting discussion after death. If it's going to exist, it might as well permit discussion for the rest of the game, if only as a novelty device. (Then El Barto would use it). Zack and atheotes started with this.
Grease, or Lynchproof (4-2): Many people hate this, and arguably it is a bit bastard. I'm not sure if it would be improved or made worse by having the runner-up lynched following its use. At least, it's use ought to carry heavy penalties beyond mana-cost. Pretty funny to allow Mafia to use it even though it has no effect on them. In combination with Stasis, a long and healthy game would not likely lose much by excluding it. No one in the game selected this, though atheotes and Csargo selected stasis.
Veritas (5-2), the spell showing the number of corrupted on the lynchwagon, is usually not worth the cost compared to other spells that could take its place. It's unique virtue is that bypasses obfuscation of investigative roles. Very few were offered this, though Stasis, the other Tier-5 spell (see above), was offered to only atheotes and Csargo, and they both took it.
Speaking of the scan (Detect Corruption 4-1), it appeared a bit less than I expected (though everyone who was offered took it). Csargo, BSmith, and Zack had it, and used it up fairly quick. BSmith's only told because I communed with him, and Zack had the unusual virtue of multi-use. BTW Jabbz, looking at the spreadsheet Zack doesn't seem to be marked as having the scan, or really any spells other than Vitality. Is that an oversight?
Another seeming error in the Spellbook, Choxorn is not listed as having Incineration (4-3), though he used it. Incineration was offered to me, Choxorn, and atheotes. Only Choxorn took it, and he used it well. This spell was well-balanced in the setup IMO.
atheotes
02-15-2017, 10:27
Vitality, or Tough Guy (2-3): Half the town was offered this one, but it's arguably the least-useful spell available. Why would anyone cast this when they could be doing anything else, or even nothing? It's only made possible by the ruleset prohibiting discussion after death. If it's going to exist, it might as well permit discussion for the rest of the game, if only as a novelty device. (Then El Barto would use it). Zack and atheotes started with this.
Grease, or Lynchproof (4-2): Many people hate this, and arguably it is a bit bastard. I'm not sure if it would be improved or made worse by having the runner-up lynched following its use. At least, it's use ought to carry heavy penalties beyond mana-cost. Pretty funny to allow Mafia to use it even though it has no effect on them. In combination with Stasis, a long and healthy game would not likely lose much by excluding it. No one in the game selected this, though atheotes and Csargo selected stasis.
.
i picked vitality bcos there was nothing else to pick.
I was late for d1 and had to kind of rush to choose and picked the stasis thinking it will prevent night kills. yes. it says moon rise, governor etc. still my brain only registered high tier, town ability and my own high mana (based on tier 1 track,watch etc. and tier 3 doc) :shrug:
Well, that was interesting. There were a lot of jailkeeper/blocking abilities in the game.
I thought I was doing well to have 19 mana at start of play, but of course I only got to cast two spells, one of which I misdirected on Atheotes.
Actually, WP does not do that town justice. Everyone that was part of the town played amazingly. GH terrified me, Renata was great too, Monty was also amazing, Lew and Zack too, and I'm sure I'm forgetting more names.
Not naming me among the townies who played well, after I spent the first day and night leading a wagon on you and vigging Al Sips? I am disappoint.
In an interesting parallelism, here Sooh was a lone SK hoping to turn the death of the Mafia to her advantage,
I've usually found that Serial Killer is actually harder if the Mafia all go down early- it's to your advantage if both sides (or all sides, if there's more than you, the town, and the mafia) are kept in relatively equal balance, then you can slip under the radar more easily because they're all too focused on each other.
Veritas (5-2), the spell showing the number of corrupted on the lynchwagon, is usually not worth the cost compared to other spells that could take its place. It's unique virtue is that bypasses obfuscation of investigative roles. Very few were offered this, though Stasis, the other Tier-5 spell (see above), was offered to only atheotes and Csargo, and they both took it.
The way I figured it was, with my 14 mana available, I could take Veritas, or I could take Commune with Dead and Incineration, and those two combined looked way more valuable than Veritas was on its own. I also couldn't take both Incineration and Veritas, and I really wanted my Vigilante Spell. Considering how we barely needed investigative roles to catch all the scums but Incineration was put to great use on night 1, I think I'm satisfied with my choice.
Montmorency
02-15-2017, 11:10
Well, that was interesting. There were a lot of jailkeeper/blocking abilities in the game.
I thought I was doing well to have 19 mana at start of play, but of course I only got to cast two spells, one of which I misdirected on Atheotes.
Speaking of the manaburn, most people were offered but (other than automatically for the masons) only Arakhorn and Lewwyn took it.
Arakhor, according to the spreadsheet you took Manaburn x2, Watch x2, Redirect, Wane (like Tough Guy, with the all-game component I suggested - seriously screw this thing), Judge, Doctor, not taking Veritas or Bodyguard.
The mana costs for spells other than manaburn would be 2x1, 2, 2, 4, 4 = 14, leaving 4 (5) points between the mana burns. I think bodyguard is better to take, and you could have anyway within your limit. I figure, you can save bodyguard for last when you don't have the mana to survive anyway.
Manaburn is only useful towards late-game, and at that point there aren't many situations wherein you have no more spells you want to cast, yet plenty of mana to burn just to inconvenience another player. Might be better off replaced with some form of mana-suck spell that transfers mana to the caster.
Not naming me among the townies who played well, after I spent the first day and night leading a wagon on you and vigging Al Sips? I am disappoint.
I've usually found that Serial Killer is actually harder if the Mafia all go down early- it's to your advantage if both sides (or all sides, if there's more than you, the town, and the mafia) are kept in relatively equal balance, then you can slip under the radar more easily because they're all too focused on each other.
Yeah, Choxorn played well.
I mean that Sooh in this case tried to take advantage of the circumstances - it's not like she had any choice if she wanted to live, at any rate.
You could really see the (albeit evil) desire and frustration showing through in this comment:
What? Did you think that top 2 trains on D1 and D2 were all 4 scum? Seriously? You're good, but you're not that good.
Note the use of "you" rather than "we".
And it fit her role flavor!
EDIT: Since Sooh's character survived, maybe Jabbz can do a recurring series around her a la The Frenchman.
In an interesting parallelism, here Sooh was a lone SK hoping to turn the death of the Mafia to her advantage, whereas in the 2012 game Pizza had been scum who didn't know his partners, who could only rejoin his team after establishing contact. And that he did, using his prior infiltration of my inner circle to dominate all parts of the game. So in defeating Sooh I take vicarious victory over Pizza?
So the worm has finally turned. My vengeance is complete. Feels good.
This may come as a surprise to you, but I am not Pizza. Pizza is not me. Your vengeance is incomplete.
Also I'm sad, because I had good spells to use, but you people didn't want to listen when I said to lynch Snerk.
Seriously, I blocked the man two nights in a row (sorta), and still you lynch me! (I don't want to hear anything about my murders of the innocent. That was just an unfortunate side effect)
Note the use of "you" rather than "we".
FTR, I would probably have used that if I had been town as well, since I was basically inactive for large portions of the game and didn't feel like I was involved in rounding people up.
Technically, we did lynch Snerk, and you helped point us in that direction.
We just lynched him after you.
Despite his desperate attempts during the night, Snerk is unable to accomplish even one killing.
Err, not one killl? I think you are forgetting about something here..
Snerk has lynched himself. He was a
Corrupted Mage
Apology accepted.
Town got lucky and played sharply. Scums got unlucky and played sub-sharply. Result: now my arse is sore and I'd like to go have a cry in the shower. GG next map.
As for Jabbz: 10/10 would play again.
Winston Hughes
02-15-2017, 12:22
Thanks Jabbz. Fun game, well hosted.
This was a very much a team win, and all town shares the glory.
That said, chox is mvp for the shot and for generally being on the right side of everything.
Renata/GH as masons is op and should be banned.
Commiserations to scum and Sooh. That was a freak D1/N1 by any standards.
Zack and Winston let GH, Renata, and I take up the brunt of the work after D1
Not that it was necessary in the end, but I put in a lot more work reading and analysing the thread than appeared on the surface. If I was going to get to use 'Retribution', I was damned sure I wasn't going to be hitting town with it.
A neat side effect is that, while I did very little to affect the course of the game, I ended up having never pointed my vote at a townie. Four days, four votes, four scum. :verycool:
10/10 will kick Snerk's butt again!
Winston Hughes
02-15-2017, 13:31
BLLEaAAaaAaSSsSEe
This got lols every time I scrolled past it.
The whole sequence was brilliant, but I'm a sucker for the big ham.
GeneralHankerchief
02-15-2017, 13:31
Oh, sweet!
GG everybody and thanks for hosting Jabbz! I'll have more to say in a couple hours.
Funnily enough, part way through day one I was thinking town was in it to lose this game; I'm pretty sure I said so in the mason chat. So many people were playing low impact or absent, Winston was playing deliberately scummy, Zack's Zack -- I thought we were toast. And then a ridiculous proportion of the low impact players actually were mafia (and SK). So it worked out amazingly. I've never played in a game quite like this one.
Being masons with GH was an absolute blast, and I loved it. Mason is almost my favorite role to begin with (after vig!), and then to get it with someone I've played with a bunch recently and who is such a good player was a privilege.
Kudos to everyone who pushed the Dp wagon end of day one; I think that's what really did the damage and turned what would probably still have been a win into a steamroller. Team instincts were so good this game for the town. And I'm so happy at all the activity around end of day one! That was so great.
I have some minor things to muse on about the setup later (it's not really my specialty).
Winston Hughes
02-15-2017, 14:02
Winston was playing deliberately scummy
On D1, I was trying to walk the line between townie enough to be killed by scum and scummy enough to be killed by town. Given that it drew two alignment scans, I guess I waxed too scummy.
From morning D2, otoh, I was trying to get scum to target me, which meant hamming up the scummy to make it look like I didn't want to be targeted, whilst also laying hints about being a special role.
Yes, Wane was a silly idea and Manaburn on N2 was probably my worst possible option, but I do believe that I had a bodyguard spell as well as a doctor spell.
First off, thanks for the game Jabbz. :) You wanted feedback on your hosting, and I have absolutely no complaints and would like to see you do it again.
As regards the setup: in general, (and though it didn't really come into play in this game) I have the belief that sky-high-information games like this are extremely hard on the scum. Not only do they have to carry out their evil deeds, they have to be able to dodge the town powers at least most of the time, and they have to be able to blend into the town when the claims inevitably come, without (too much) fear of immediate contradiction all the time. IMO the scum have to be absolutely stacked. Double actions, undetectable powers, godfather-like powers, anything and everything to make it so that a town trying to brute force the game is going to run into trouble. And there should further be a pool of vanillas with known and to some extent fake-able actions that scum can try to blend into. That's just my general feeling; whether or not your game has done enough in this regard is not something I'm really qualified to judge. I'll leave it to others.
I did feel there may be too much protection and too much roleblocking on the town side.
Montmorency
02-15-2017, 15:30
As far as information goes, scans weren't an issue. Maybe you could argue against tracks and watches (mostly watches this game) being thrown around willy nilly, but otherwise this game was high-information because we had the momentum to lay it all out in-thread. This game was a rare case that can't fundamentally be accounted for in the setup without just making a different setup, probably with far less role action. Role madness games definitely have more capacity to skew towards one side early than more vanilla setups.
The scum did indeed have support abilities to interfere with scans and even protections, but obviously it works better the more scum there are. Consider that with 11 town, 4 scum, and 1 SK, without scum dying at night, and one scum kill blocked each night, town can only mislynch around 2 times, or mislynch 2 times with 2 kills per night including one mafia, which isn't unfair to scum.
Too much blocking? It was probably intended to prevent a bloodbath ending within 4 rounds. At least, jailkeep should be less common than plain roleblock.
Winston Hughes
02-15-2017, 15:44
In no particular order...
https://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll235/WinstonHughes/dirty%20harry.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/WinstonHughes/media/dirty%20harry.jpg.html)
https://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll235/WinstonHughes/hannibal.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/WinstonHughes/media/hannibal.jpg.html)
https://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll235/WinstonHughes/face%20ateam.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/WinstonHughes/media/face%20ateam.jpg.html)
https://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll235/WinstonHughes/easy-rider1.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/WinstonHughes/media/easy-rider1.jpg.html)
https://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll235/WinstonHughes/annie%20wilkes.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/WinstonHughes/media/annie%20wilkes.jpg.html)
https://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll235/WinstonHughes/Blain.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/WinstonHughes/media/Blain.jpg.html)
https://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll235/WinstonHughes/tarkin.jpeg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/WinstonHughes/media/tarkin.jpeg.html)
https://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll235/WinstonHughes/quint.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/WinstonHughes/media/quint.jpg.html)
https://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll235/WinstonHughes/jabba.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/WinstonHughes/media/jabba.jpg.html)
https://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll235/WinstonHughes/muldully.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/WinstonHughes/media/muldully.jpg.html)
https://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll235/WinstonHughes/Bueller.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/WinstonHughes/media/Bueller.jpg.html)
https://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll235/WinstonHughes/mr%20wilson.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/WinstonHughes/media/mr%20wilson.jpg.html)
https://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll235/WinstonHughes/murdoch%20ba.png (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/WinstonHughes/media/murdoch%20ba.png.html)
Oh god Chox I'm so sorry for forgetting you, guess I must have tried to purge that D1 from my memory. Only balance thing I can think of is manybe make godfather last 2 nights, given that the usage of it has to line up exactly with a scan it feels like currently the majority of the time it gets wasted.
GeneralHankerchief
02-15-2017, 15:54
Alright, a couple of thoughts.
First of all, that feel when your 2-person mason chat has more posts than every other QT combined. :laugh4:
Secondly, players. Renata was a fantastic partner and if we weren't mason'd together I'm sure that after the previous (offsite) game we played together we would have spent a disproportionate amount of time nitpicking every single word in each other's posts, so having that comfort that she was lock town right off the bat was huge. 10/10 would mason with again. :bow:
Visor, you mentioned me shading you for not being in-thread during that one morning and I'd like to apologize for that, it was pretty crappy reasoning on my part. But by that point half the town was clear for one reason or another, and a few more townies were also doing good work and you just... weren't. No hard feelings, man.
Monty - stuff like confidently declaring Visor was town after like one post of his on Page 1 is why I can never fully trust you. :laugh4:
Town was on fire this game. Quite possibly the most lopsided town victory in .Org history. Serious kudos to everyone who was a part of it. Singling anyone out (aside from Renata obviously) is really hard, but I'd have to agree with sentiment that Choxorn was devastatingly on-point this game, particularly with the Al Sipsclar vig - I could easily have seen him sneak through another round or two otherwise.
Commiserations to both flavors of our scum too - speaking from experience it sucks to be on the wrong side of a pounding, and you guys were still pretty game about it.
Thirdly, flavor. Excellent work in this department, Jabbz. Think I mentioned it in the mason QT but original universes and well-developed writeups will always have a special place in my heart.
Fourthly, I was going to put balance here but I've decided to make my thoughts on that a separate post.
I never did that :P
*Cough Cough Spoiled Immediately After Death Cough Cough*
Commune with the Dead, or Pathologist (3-1): Most townies were offered this spell, but I'm the only one who used it. BSmith and Choxorn also started with it. Definitely a specialist spell.
Vitality, or Tough Guy (2-3): Half the town was offered this one, but it's arguably the least-useful spell available. Why would anyone cast this when they could be doing anything else, or even nothing? It's only made possible by the ruleset prohibiting discussion after death. If it's going to exist, it might as well permit discussion for the rest of the game, if only as a novelty device. (Then El Barto would use it). Zack and atheotes started with this.
Vitality/toughguy has a couple of things that make it interesting. First it's a two day spell, so you cast it night one, and it provides protection through night one and night two. Second you know you've been hit, but you get to discuss your thoughts after being hit, and lets you participate through half of the day, in a position where town takes everything you say as coming from a town perspective. Plus its cheap as shit.
Basically I have this envisioned as a spell you might cast when you were worried about being targeted, but didn't have better options. Also, its REALLY cheap.
Grease, or Lynchproof (4-2): Many people hate this, and arguably it is a bit bastard. I'm not sure if it would be improved or made worse by having the runner-up lynched following its use. At least, it's use ought to carry heavy penalties beyond mana-cost. Pretty funny to allow Mafia to use it even though it has no effect on them. In combination with Stasis, a long and healthy game would not likely lose much by excluding it. No one in the game selected this, though atheotes and Csargo selected stasis.
I don't see it as being a bastard role. Some people just come across as scummy in their town games (guilty as shit here). This spell provides an opportunity to get out of that, at least once. By only giving it to town (scum couldn't use and it wasn't offered to SK) it provided a towny with an opportunity to stop one mislynch, and that I think is valuable. Plus, it's expensive which means there is a reasonable opportunity cost.
Veritas (5-2), the spell showing the number of corrupted on the lynchwagon, is usually not worth the cost compared to other spells that could take its place. It's unique virtue is that bypasses obfuscation of investigative roles. Very few were offered this, though Stasis, the other Tier-5 spell (see above), was offered to only atheotes and Csargo, and they both took it.
I was actually sad to see no one pick this spell. It's very powerful, but very situational. Picture someone having used that on day 1. They would have been told no scum were on the vote. That person just town cleared six people, five of whom lived through the night. That's over a third of the game. That was the same for both the other two votes. Since scum saw that spell as an option (scum saw every spell option except the unique SK spell, and the hunters retribution) I would have expected them to make sure at least one or two was always on the wagon. Now of course, should the wagon only be 4 ppl and 1 scum, it's less effective, or gods help you its a 7 person wagon with 2 scum, and you still have to sell your results. Still it has the potential to be a very powerful spell, and was largely responsible for a town win the last game I used this ability.
Speaking of the scan (Detect Corruption 4-1), it appeared a bit less than I expected (though everyone who was offered took it). Csargo, BSmith, and Zack had it, and used it up fairly quick. BSmith's only told because I communed with him, and Zack had the unusual virtue of multi-use. BTW Jabbz, looking at the spreadsheet Zack doesn't seem to be marked as having the scan, or really any spells other than Vitality. Is that an oversight?
No I mentioned that I erased the spells used by players as they went so I could keep an account of what spells they had left. You can see which abilities they used on the actions tab.
Another seeming error in the Spellbook, Choxorn is not listed as having Incineration (4-3), though he used it. Incineration was offered to me, Choxorn, and atheotes. Only Choxorn took it, and he used it well. This spell was well-balanced in the setup IMO.
[/quote]
Same as above.
One other thing worth mentioning in regards to Zack's spell choices. I had meant for players to be able to pick up to two versions of any spell tier 1-3, and only one each 4 and 5, but I forgot to mention that in the PM, so I let it slide when Zack wanted two cops. I would have probably drawn the line at someone wanting two incinerates, and definitely would have for two tier 5's. That restriction is definitely something I would impose on using this setup again.
Err, not one killl? I think you are forgetting about something here..
Apology accepted.
Town got lucky and played sharply. Scums got unlucky and played sub-sharply. Result: now my arse is sore and I'd like to go have a cry in the shower. GG next map.
As for Jabbz: 10/10 would play again.
Chronology matters my friend. You were unable to affect a kill "during the night". You killed yourself after the fact. Don't mess with my prose :P
GeneralHankerchief
02-15-2017, 17:20
Computer swallowed my balance post, here's a shorter version of it.
-----
Contrary to what I predicted earlier in mason chat, it *was* mostly threadwork and not night actions that decided the game. Due to this, it's hard to ascertain whether the game was truly balanced, though all in all if you throw aside the issues of momentum and mafia being hamstrung from early on, I think it was mostly a success on Jabbz's part.
That said.
I learned some time ago that in these types of games where there's a lot of night actions, town naturally gravitates towards pooling their information in order to get a better idea of what's going on. While I may bitch and moan about this because it's my M.O., there's nothing inherently wrong with this approach - townies are supposed to try to solve the game, and this is solving behavior. But it still needs to be accounted for in development, most notably by beefing the mafia up by a bit.
In general there are two successful solutions to this. The first one is to give the mafia cover so that they can't simply be caught by everyone adding their stories up. Double night actions, a way to blast through a protection circle, etc. Now, if they get tracked visiting a target who died, or if they get vigged or something, fair play, but otherwise measures need to be taken to allow the mafia to successfully blend in.
The second solution is related to that - while allowing the mafia to blend in, make sure they still have overall agency when it comes to night actions. I've learned the hard way that if the mafia frequently have to make a choice between blending in and doing nefarious things at night, it's not a good sign for balance. After all, when it comes down to it the day is the town's time, and the night is the mafia's time. Obviously give them a few obstacles, but don't close off half of the targets to them. Let them work towards accomplishing their objectives.
tl;dr of this section is that I think balance was adequate. Mafia still would have lost because town was on their game, but may have caused a few more casualties with a couple of tweaks.
--------
A second point I want to touch on is one of game pace.
This doesn't have to do with whether 48/24, 24/24, 36/12, etc. cycles are most appropriate. This is talking about keeping the number of players steadily dropping as the game progresses - i.e. I have a serious bone to pick with Stasis and Lynchproof abilities.
For those who played Capo IV back in the day, my stance on Lynchproof is well known - I think it's the single worst ability that can be assigned and it has no place in any mafia game in any capacity. Stasis isn't quite as bad, but the general intent is still the same: its goal is to thwart the will of the town and circumvent the lynch process. The day phase should always end with a lynch unless the majority of players vote otherwise - the lynch is the fundamental backbone upon which mafia games are built.
But beyond that, Lynchproof and Stasis are bad because they represent stagnation. It's 48 (or 36 or 24 or whatever) hours of discussion with no end result. More information is presumably gleaned from that time in the thread, but the overall game state is exactly where it started. Combine this with the high amount of protections, roleblocking, and jailkeeps that we saw and there was a legitimate chance of going six real-life days without a single change in the amount of living players. That's not ideal.
Obviously, if the mafia derp around and hit a protected target, or are successfully roleblocked once, that's fine. But if it becomes a pattern, then it's a problem. It factors into my "the mafia need to have overall agency when it comes to night actions" argument from earlier. The general cycle of things is kill(s) at night, lynch during the day. Disrupt or hold off that cycle for too long and things start to stagnate.
------
Again, just my 2 cents, overall the game was quite fun and generally well-balanced. :bow:
Yes, Wane was a silly idea and Manaburn on N2 was probably my worst possible option, but I do believe that I had a bodyguard spell as well as a doctor spell.
Wane is a modified treestump. It's a very situational role, but it has its uses. Like I said in a previous comment, I often come across in my town games as scummy, so I view the world of mafia in a very paranoid way. This spell would let someone who was going to be lynched on the morrow survive for two more days and contribute. Technically I offered this one to scum because it would have been freaking hilarious if they took it, but it was really offered to help a scummy looking towny not let town mislynch and still contribute.
First off, thanks for the game Jabbz. :) You wanted feedback on your hosting, and I have absolutely no complaints and would like to see you do it again.
As regards the setup: in general, (and though it didn't really come into play in this game) I have the belief that sky-high-information games like this are extremely hard on the scum. Not only do they have to carry out their evil deeds, they have to be able to dodge the town powers at least most of the time, and they have to be able to blend into the town when the claims inevitably come, without (too much) fear of immediate contradiction all the time. IMO the scum have to be absolutely stacked. Double actions, undetectable powers, godfather-like powers, anything and everything to make it so that a town trying to brute force the game is going to run into trouble. And there should further be a pool of vanillas with known and to some extent fake-able actions that scum can try to blend into. That's just my general feeling; whether or not your game has done enough in this regard is not something I'm really qualified to judge. I'll leave it to others.
I did feel there may be too much protection and too much roleblocking on the town side.
I agree with you on the roleblocking/jb. I talked about it with Dp I think it was, and in the future when I run this (it will be run as an open setup) I'll have warp be a tier 3 + spell. So tier 3, but costs the same as a tier 4. Allows multiple uses, but at a high cost. Silence I think was ok where it was at.
Oh god Chox I'm so sorry for forgetting you, guess I must have tried to purge that D1 from my memory. Only balance thing I can think of is manybe make godfather last 2 nights, given that the usage of it has to line up exactly with a scan it feels like currently the majority of the time it gets wasted.
That's not a bad idea given the cost actually, especially with the fact that you cannot use any other spells the first night.
Winston Hughes
02-15-2017, 17:26
I don't see it as being a bastard role. Some people just come across as scummy in their town games (guilty as shit here). This spell provides an opportunity to get out of that, at least once. By only giving it to town (scum couldn't use and it wasn't offered to SK) it provided a towny with an opportunity to stop one mislynch, and that I think is valuable. Plus, it's expensive which means there is a reasonable opportunity cost.
For me, the lynch is sacred.
Unless it's a game built around unusual lynch mechanics, it should be as straightforward as 'player with the most votes is killed'.
The only case where I don't mind seeing roles/powers have an impact is when votes end up tied.
Computer swallowed my balance post, here's a shorter version of it.
-----
Contrary to what I predicted earlier in mason chat, it *was* mostly threadwork and not night actions that decided the game. Due to this, it's hard to ascertain whether the game was truly balanced, though all in all if you throw aside the issues of momentum and mafia being hamstrung from early on, I think it was mostly a success on Jabbz's part.
That said.
I learned some time ago that in these types of games where there's a lot of night actions, town naturally gravitates towards pooling their information in order to get a better idea of what's going on. While I may bitch and moan about this because it's my M.O., there's nothing inherently wrong with this approach - townies are supposed to try to solve the game, and this is solving behavior. But it still needs to be accounted for in development, most notably by beefing the mafia up by a bit.
In general there are two successful solutions to this. The first one is to give the mafia cover so that they can't simply be caught by everyone adding their stories up. Double night actions, a way to blast through a protection circle, etc. Now, if they get tracked visiting a target who died, or if they get vigged or something, fair play, but otherwise measures need to be taken to allow the mafia to successfully blend in.
The second solution is related to that - while allowing the mafia to blend in, make sure they still have overall agency when it comes to night actions. I've learned the hard way that if the mafia frequently have to make a choice between blending in and doing nefarious things at night, it's not a good sign for balance. After all, when it comes down to it the day is the town's time, and the night is the mafia's time. Obviously give them a few obstacles, but don't close off half of the targets to them. Let them work towards accomplishing their objectives.
tl;dr of this section is that I think balance was adequate. Mafia still would have lost because town was on their game, but may have caused a few more casualties with a couple of tweaks.
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A second point I want to touch on is one of game pace.
This doesn't have to do with whether 48/24, 24/24, 36/12, etc. cycles are most appropriate. This is talking about keeping the number of players steadily dropping as the game progresses - i.e. I have a serious bone to pick with Stasis and Lynchproof abilities.
For those who played Capo IV back in the day, my stance on Lynchproof is well known - I think it's the single worst ability that can be assigned and it has no place in any mafia game in any capacity. Stasis isn't quite as bad, but the general intent is still the same: its goal is to thwart the will of the town and circumvent the lynch process. The day phase should always end with a lynch unless the majority of players vote otherwise - the lynch is the fundamental backbone upon which mafia games are built.
But beyond that, Lynchproof and Stasis are bad because they represent stagnation. It's 48 (or 36 or 24 or whatever) hours of discussion with no end result. More information is presumably gleaned from that time in the thread, but the overall game state is exactly where it started. Combine this with the high amount of protections, roleblocking, and jailkeeps that we saw and there was a legitimate chance of going six real-life days without a single change in the amount of living players. That's not ideal.
Obviously, if the mafia derp around and hit a protected target, or are successfully roleblocked once, that's fine. But if it becomes a pattern, then it's a problem. It factors into my "the mafia need to have overall agency when it comes to night actions" argument from earlier. The general cycle of things is kill(s) at night, lynch during the day. Disrupt or hold off that cycle for too long and things start to stagnate.
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Again, just my 2 cents, overall the game was quite fun and generally well-balanced. :bow:
No, I think that's valid, and not something I was thinking about when I assigned the power. I'll have to put some thoughts into that as I'm not sure its quite as gloom and doom as you make it out to be, but its definitely worth analyzing for the future.
Also, because no one addressed it and I wanted to get a reaction: What do you guys think about me hosting a bastard setup? I'd be willing to have a third party you guys would accept verify its not some horrid game that towns going to hate and only I'm going to enjoy, as I'm pretty sure I'd pass that muster. I'll lie to you guys, but you will have fun anyway :P
As regards the Stasis spell, I was recently part of a mash on MU in which my mafia team had one player with the ability to end the day early. There was a certain window by which the player would have to submit the ability, and then it would kick in 30 min prior to end of day. I don't know how you'd implement it in a game like this if it's even possible non-automated, but I liked it. Good way to give the mafia a lynch-affecting power without actually denying a lynch.
GeneralHankerchief
02-15-2017, 17:36
FWIW, here (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?137953-Capo-di-Tutti-Capi-IV-Concluded&p=2053402327&viewfull=1#post2053402327) is the start of a large, fairly in-depth argument we had about Lynchproof after Capo IV in 2011. You'll be able to get most of what was going on from context, but a quick summary is that before I transitioned from a player to a fill-in cohost, Askthepizzaguy had received the most votes two times in a row but survived each time due to protection from another player's (DaveShack's) role.
-edit- khaan's post 4918 is where the argument really kicks into gear.
Also, because no one addressed it and I wanted to get a reaction: What do you guys think about me hosting a bastard setup? I'd be willing to have a third party you guys would accept verify its not some horrid game that towns going to hate and only I'm going to enjoy, as I'm pretty sure I'd pass that muster. I'll lie to you guys, but you will have fun anyway :P
Bastard games can be fun once in a while. In theory, I approve.
Winston Hughes
02-15-2017, 17:52
Bastard games can be fun once in a while. In theory, I approve.
Aye, if RL permits, I'll be interested.
Hell I've made a series out of bastard games.
Montmorency
02-15-2017, 18:08
I don't fully agree on Mafia agency, and in fact I think that if it should be compensated for the way to do it is to permit direct private comms. I know Capo IV gave you an abiding hatred of night networks and consolidation, but I don't think it's usually detrimental for both night and the day to be both the Town's and the Mafia's - in parallel.
GeneralHankerchief
02-15-2017, 18:15
I don't fully agree on Mafia agency, and in fact I think that if it should be compensated for the way to do it is to permit direct private comms. I know Capo IV gave you an abiding hatred of night networks and consolidation, but I don't think it's usually detrimental for both night and the day to be both the Town's and the Mafia's - in parallel.
Oh, I hated networking long before Capo IV, my friend.
But I think we disagree on the larger point: In my estimation, in the flow of things, the night largely belongs to the mafia, and the day largely to the town. If you want to adjust the balance in either direction, the other side needs to be compensated.
Montmorency
02-15-2017, 18:24
Oh, I hated networking long before Capo IV, my friend.
But I think we disagree on the larger point: In my estimation, in the flow of things, the night largely belongs to the mafia, and the day largely to the town. If you want to adjust the balance in either direction, the other side needs to be compensated.
I think only the vanilla game embodies this, and power roles immediately begin to dilute the separation. My position is that if there are to be power roles in a setup, the shifted dynamic could be treated not merely as a complication but as an entire mode of play.
Balance is, does this gun offer consistent advantage over other guns, mode is deathmatch to capture the flag.
GeneralHankerchief
02-15-2017, 18:29
I think only the vanilla game embodies this, and power roles immediately begin to dilute the separation. My position is that if there are to be power roles in a setup, the shifted dynamic could be treated not merely as a complication but as an entire mode of play.
Balance is, does this gun offer consistent advantage over other guns, mode is deathmatch to capture the flag.
You know this isn't going to hold water with me specifically. :laugh4: I treat all mafia games as an extension of vanilla. If properly balanced, the separation still holds.
I'll be honest, when it comes to ideas of agency I'm more inclined to agree with Monty, that powers skew that dynamic significantly. What I find far more persuasive is the demoralizing effect no lynch after a 48h buildup could cause.
BTW GHC, when are we expecting your game to fire off?
GeneralHankerchief
02-15-2017, 19:00
BTW GHC, when are we expecting your game to fire off?
GH man, GH. None of this GHC stuff. :tongue:
Anyway, target start date is February 28th. Don't want to run it before then because El Barto won't be around, but don't want to run it too much after because then there'd be too much of a gap and it runs the risk of it coming too close to when I leave the country for a week in April. Currently asking Barto for more info on his exact availability.
It's ready to go though and I'll probably post sign-ups in a few days regardless.
TBH I only still call you GHC to rile you up :P
I probably shouldn't play this next round if it's starting that early. I day my comps the 6th, 8th, and 10th, then start my thesis on the 11th. Already behind the ball if I want to graduate on time so yeah, I REALLY need to pass my comps first time around.
seireikhaan
02-15-2017, 21:58
So I got pinged to check in on this game, and.... dang. Was intending to stay off mafia for a bit until GH's game, but I wish I'd signed up. This game looked like a blast. Put me down for an invite if you host any others, Jabbz.
In retrospect, I should have taken Veritas (and I could have afforded it fairly easily too), but I was expecting lots of small votes and scum spread between them, which would make for an ineffective result. The two votes we did have, however, were almost made for such a spell. ~:(
Monstrdude
02-15-2017, 23:41
slot 12 would have been scum if I was playing
didn't really read other than flips but town appears to have crushed it so congratulations are in order
Zack's Zack -- I thought we were toast.
~:mecry:
You must admit my history of reading you is not the best.
Hell I've made a series out of bastard games.
Oh come on, not all the Zack Mafia games are bastard.
Thanks for the MVP votes, everyone. :bow:
I was among the many who came to view Lynchproof as a bastard role in Capo IV, though Capo IV's version of it was especially bastard, a role that could offer unlimited lynch protection to other roles without even revealing itself is the source of the lynch protection. It was also a really complicated game with lots of night actions where townies could potentially defect and form their own scumteams, as happened with the Lynch-Overriding Lawyer DaveShack and his teammate Askthepizzaguy. So Pizza got lynched twice, and it did nothing both times, and nobody had any way of knowing that we had to kill DaveShack first until it was too late to stop them. It was generally just really, really bastard. Lynch-proofing is a bit less bastard if it's a one-off or has other limits, but something like what Capo IV is an absolute bastard role.
The only other comparably bastard lynch-proofing I've seen was Camikaze's LOTR game way back, where some of the scums were immune to death until other scums had been killed first, but at least when sprig got lynched and showed his immunity the first time, he lost his own lynch vote and was publicly revealed as Sauron. Then someone else on the secondary scum-team was lynched out of order, and we didn't get to know why other than they just couldn't be lynched, no reveal of why or even taking his vote away the way that happened to sprig.
I prefer vanilla or vanilla-ish games most of the time. The less "decoration" the better imo.
i picked vitality bcos there was nothing else to pick.
I was late for d1 and had to kind of rush to choose and picked the stasis thinking it will prevent night kills. yes. it says moon rise, governor etc. still my brain only registered high tier, town ability and my own high mana (based on tier 1 track,watch etc. and tier 3 doc) :shrug:
I picked stasis for the same reason. I read moon rise as sunrise scanning the spells.
Front page has been updated with all links, roles, deaths, etc.
atheotes
02-16-2017, 07:05
I dont mind playing a bastard set up when it is announced as such :bow:
The only other comparably bastard lynch-proofing I've seen was Camikaze's LOTR game way back, where some of the scums were immune to death until other scums had been killed first, but at least when sprig got lynched and showed his immunity the first time, he lost his own lynch vote and was publicly revealed as Sauron. Then someone else on the secondary scum-team was lynched out of order, and we didn't get to know why other than they just couldn't be lynched, no reveal of why or even taking his vote away the way that happened to sprig.
I remember that. Was Beefy who couldn't be lynched until the rest of our Isengard crew was eliminated. Problem was that Camikaze forgot to specify that in the lynch write-up, so town wasted yet another lynch trying to string up Beef. So yeah, not so good. And you never know, it's possible that lynch won us the game.
As for bastard elements in a games yay or nay, I'm fine with it. I'm no puritan when it comes to these games at all. If anything I'm the opposite, I prefer that games aren't too vanilla as I tend to grow a little disinterested if it's just an endless slog of tone analysis. I love a good mechanical mystery. Kennigit's games usually scratch my itch in that regard.
Of course the dead QT still has people listing me as their first choice for scum. :rolleyes:
Well, I did say it was tinfoil, so no really a serious allegation. I did find it strange that we did the exact same thing on the same night, so the paranoia led to the thought that maybe you didn't do it and could see what people you killed did instead and were reporting that as cover. :bow:
GG to town here. Finally a game that had tons of roles/abilities and was one that I could actually keep up with. Naturally I get offed N1. :laugh4:
GeneralHankerchief
02-16-2017, 16:46
GG to town here. Finally a game that had tons of roles/abilities and was one that I could actually keep up with. Naturally I get offed N1. :laugh4:
Renata and I were pretty much determined to see you lynched had you survived, so that actually might have been for the best. :laugh4:
Yeah, it moved suspect #2 (Visor) into prime voting territory.
I remember that. Was Beefy who couldn't be lynched until the rest of our Isengard crew was eliminated. Problem was that Camikaze forgot to specify that in the lynch write-up, so town wasted yet another lynch trying to string up Beef. So yeah, not so good. And you never know, it's possible that lynch won us the game.
IIRC, He was Wormtongue, you were Saruman, and who else was on the team? I think I remember Autolycus being a member of the team...
But yeah, it got kind of frustrating to lynch lots of scums for a while and then not be able to do anything at all to you guys, and then we ended up lynching Earthling and Takhisis, who were very bad townies but very obviously townies.
atheotes
02-17-2017, 05:09
oh..i meant to ask earlier. Sooh - why did you claim that you protected Renata? and why did you kill me when i could have been the mislynch?
IIRC, He was Wormtongue, you were Saruman, and who else was on the team? I think I remember Autolycus being a member of the team...
But yeah, it got kind of frustrating to lynch lots of scums for a while and then not be able to do anything at all to you guys, and then we ended up lynching Earthling and Takhisis, who were very bad townies but very obviously townies.
Correct. He was Wormtongue, Auto was an Uruk-Hai, and I was Saruman. I might be mixing it up here but I seem to recall Beef being able to recruit another member after Auto was lynched. CCrunner or Drumstudent/Verarde beacame an Uruk-Hai or something. But it's been too long, I'd have to read the thread.
oh..i meant to ask earlier. Sooh - why did you claim that you protected Renata? and why did you kill me when i could have been the mislynch?
I guess to be able to try and sell it as a vig if need be. Usually fair SK play but in this game the scum faction and SK desperately needed to work somewhat in tandem. Instead we stumbled against each other right out the gate, with us targeting Sooh n1 which lead to me having to forge a case on Sooh and in the process looking super scummy after her flip.
oh..i meant to ask earlier. Sooh - why did you claim that you protected Renata? and why did you kill me when i could have been the mislynch?
Well, I knew I had to claim something, so I picked an action I thought sounded good and since Renata pretty much owned D1 I thought it would have made sense to protect her. Remember, I was only half aware of what was going on in the thread because of my fever. Killing you was to create wifom.
Correct. He was Wormtongue, Auto was an Uruk-Hai, and I was Saruman. I might be mixing it up here but I seem to recall Beef being able to recruit another member after Auto was lynched. CCrunner or Drumstudent/Verarde beacame an Uruk-Hai or something. But it's been too long, I'd have to read the thread.
Oh yeah, now I remember that. Of all the bastard recruitments, that was the bastard-iest. He can't be lynched before his recruits, and he can recruit new recruits as lynch protection? The hell kind of balance is that?
Lol that role was cray cray! Though IIRC he could only replace Auto with a new recruit. I could be lynched and that would also end our faction kill.
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