Chess - Game Thread [Concluded]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zack

Your point, or GH?

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GH.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Winston Hughes

Fredwood feels real in the now.

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idk what this means

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief

Winston, thoughts on Fred's "unfortunately"?

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Contrived = scum?

Could be.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zack

idk what this means

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I meant it felt like he was posting freely.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Winston Hughes

Contrived = scum?

Could be.

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I mean, the interpretation/paraphrase that makes most sense to me is the following:

There are two wagons right now, Logic and Barto. I'm scumreading Barto more than Logic but am fine with either lynch. Unfortunately I'm still going to vote Logic despite my greater scumread of Logic.

It just... doesn't make sense from town? It's almost like he's trying to appease Pizza.

Y'all took opposite read on the snap.

Gut says I like him, but I see where you're coming from.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief

In your experience, how often has the consensus lynch choice halfway through a D1 been correct?

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Depends on the strength of the read and the reliability of the pursuer. I've been in a lot of games where consensus was right, i've been in a lot of games where it wasn't. So I don't really see how that's a relevant question, it's not common or rare enough to really discount the voracity of Pizza's read because of it.

I haven't seen this much of a consensus of a lynch Day 1 though, this is what was bothering me earlier. To the point where you defended him, I guess Zack had a soft defense that didn't leave an impression everyone was cool with his lynch.

I don't see a world, even if Logic does survive (I'll set aside that if he does survive it won't be because he did a good job tapdancing), that this won't be a thing for the rest of the game. His pressure has been oppressive to an absurd degree and the only way I won't vote him today would be because I empathize with him; this would blow as either alignment.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief

And what do you mean "unfortunately?" If you're town you're not hemmed into any particular read here, you get to say what you want.

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Because I feel hella sorry for him.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief

I mean, the interpretation/paraphrase that makes most sense to me is the following:

There are two wagons right now, Logic and Barto. I'm scumreading Barto more than Logic but am fine with either lynch. Unfortunately I'm still going to vote Logic despite my greater scumread of Logic.

It just... doesn't make sense from town? It's almost like he's trying to appease Pizza.

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What? That seems a bit of a manipulation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fredwood

Depends on the strength of the read and the reliability of the pursuer. I've been in a lot of games where consensus was right, i've been in a lot of games where it wasn't. So I don't really see how that's a relevant question, it's not common or rare enough to really discount the voracity of Pizza's read because of it.

I haven't seen this much of a consensus of a lynch Day 1 though, this is what was bothering me earlier. To the point where you defended him, I guess Zack had a soft defense that didn't leave an impression everyone was cool with his lynch.

I don't see a world, even if Logic does survive (I'll set aside that if he does survive it won't be because he did a good job tapdancing), that this won't be a thing for the rest of the game. His pressure has been oppressive to an absurd degree and the only way I won't vote him today would be because I empathize with him; this would blow as either alignment.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fredwood

Because I feel hella sorry for him.

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This is super lazy, you should vote for your biggest scumread regardless of context except for very specific exceptions.

This isn't one of them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fredwood

Because I feel hella sorry for him.

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I think thats towny from Fred. Same thing happened in the wild west game that he started to feel sorry for the guy under immense pressure and fred was town there. Not that its not fakeable etc etc but it's in line with his prev town play so thats :top:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief

This is super lazy, you should vote for your biggest scumread regardless of context except for very specific exceptions.

This isn't one of them.

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Don't like this post.

Feels like Fredwood's playing 72/24, while GH is looking to eod.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief

This is super lazy, you should vote for your biggest scumread regardless of context except for very specific exceptions.

This isn't one of them.

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lolok either are my top scumread, except logic is more of a thing, if you want to twist that into an agenda then feel free to do so.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Winston Hughes

Don't like this post.

Feels like Fredwood's playing 72/24, while GH is looking to eod.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fredwood

lolok either are my top scumread, except logic is more of a thing, if you want to twist that into an agenda then feel free to do so.

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Winston: You might be right, I don't usually play 72/24, but can you explain how this is a Bad Thing?

Fred: My concern is still your wording, if you were fine with both wagons then I think you would have just left it at that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Winston Hughes

Vote: El Barto

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I'm gonna go with this.

Vote: El Barto

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief

Winston: You might be right, I don't usually play 72/24, but can you explain how this is a Bad Thing?

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Town play the day, scum play for the deadliine.

Vote: GH

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Winston Hughes

Town play the day, scum play for the deadliine.

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Can you elaborate?

I'm still comfortable with my vote, but GH is giving me a scummy vibe too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Csargo

I'm gonna go with this.

Vote: El Barto

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I don't care for this either. :no:

Vote count:

Pizza (1): Manasi

Manasi (1): GH

Zack (3): Montmorency, El Barto, Xiahou

Logic (5): Pizza, Dp101, Slaan, Choxorn, Kagemusha

Reinoe (1): Fredwood

Kagemusha (1): Logic

El Barto (3): Zack, Reinoe, Csargo

GH (1): Winston Hughes

Not voting (1): Cuthillius,

With 17 players there are 9 to hammer.


EOD1:
https://pending.me.uk/cd/bla_1507413600.png

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief

Winston: You might be right, I don't usually play 72/24, but can you explain how this is a Bad Thing?

Fred: My concern is still your wording, if you were fine with both wagons then I think you would have just left it at that.

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So now you're trying to direct what my response should have been? Saying that I have sympathy, something that I stated within the meat of the post, so it wasn't that much of an inference that the unfortunately meant that despite my humanity I'm likely to vote him. The wording is only misleading because you're actively altering the meaning.

Either way, I posted it because I felt like it and wanted people to know where I was at.

Couple that with your inference that I should not vote Logic because he's consensus and lolconensusisneverrightyouguyslol, then calling me lazy for not "voting" my top scumread (when Logic is a relatively top scum read)...tis strange.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief

Can you elaborate?

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Town's job is to use the time available to rebalance the information equation in its favour.

Scum's job is to ensure town guesses wrong at eod.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

I'm still comfortable with my vote, but GH is giving me a scummy vibe too.

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Zack is a bad vote.

Join me on GH.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Winston Hughes

Town's job is to use the time available to rebalance the information equation in its favour.

Scum's job is to ensure town guesses wrong at eod.

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For the town part you're generally correct, but I think you're oversimplifying the mafia's job. There's a lot more nuance to it, working on multiple levels to ensure both short and longterm success.

Luckily all I have to do is just say what's on my mind this game. :yes:

Show me the good stuff, GH.

Exciting stuff is happening. Catching only snippets Fredwood came out townie and GH came out awkward. Not sure if scummy though.

I can understand someone not voting their top scumread. For example logic has at least one "pseudo-vote" from Winston and I wouldn't mind going there myself. But I want to see a counterwagon and see how it develops and who's on it. Even though I haven't felt great about zack I can say that his 3 person wagon is not cool.
@GeneralHanderkerchief

Whom are your scumspects from strongest to weakest?

Zack
pizza
Monty
Fredwood
Dp101

Townpile.

GH
Logic
El Barto
Manasi
choxorn

scumpile

Slaan
Csargo
Kage
Cuth
reinoe
Xiahou

remainder

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

I'm still comfortable with my vote, but GH is giving me a scummy vibe too.



I don't care for this either. :no:

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Hi.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Winston Hughes

GH
Logic
El Barto
Manasi
choxorn

scumpile

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What do you think of Choxorn?

Can you clarify the ordering in those piles, if they are ordered?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

What do you think of Choxorn?

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Conservative, lacks juice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

Can you clarify the ordering in those piles, if they are ordered?

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Townpile order was deliberate, others were in order of recollection.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Winston Hughes

Conservative, lacks juice.

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He has two distinct blocks of three posts. First set of 3 posts is a joke and a few low-impact reads, standard Choxorn.
Second set of 3 posts is shading a few people (Zack and Xiahou), recreating a case against Logic to sheep Pizza (who is looking like town but you can never be sure).

It's the second block, right?

Order as in top-bottom or.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

He has two distinct blocks of three posts. First set of 3 posts is a joke and a few low-impact reads, standard Choxorn.
Second set of 3 posts is shading a few people (Zack and Xiahou), recreating a case against Logic to sheep Pizza (who is looking like town but you can never be sure).

It's the second block, right?

Order as in top-bottom or.

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He's not left scumhooks, except by omission.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

Order as in top-bottom or.

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Townpile is most townie at top.

You're making me feel you should be even higher.

Very nice work if you're scum.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

I'm still comfortable with my vote, but GH is giving me a scummy vibe too.



I don't care for this either. :no:

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Why?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Winston Hughes

He's not left scumhooks, except by omission.

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Here's his full ISO:

1-3

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Choxorn

'Sup

Medium Claim: 4th Party Hyperdimensional Alien Serial Survivor Pirate

(a pawn on the c-file)

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Choxorn

Hot Takes:

Dp101's posts are good

Csargo's are scummy

Zack, Pizza, Winston, and Monty all being themselves, more or less

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Joke + quick leans on major actives-so-far.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Choxorn

That was the joke.




Don't like this post. Hard to say way, it just sorta rubs me the wrong way. Call it gut feeling, I guess.

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Leans being weak was "the joke", replying to Zack. Negative gut feeling about Logic's wall on his return following the first volleys from Pizza.

4-6

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Choxorn

> Says Pizza is going after low-hanging fruit
> Votes El Barto

:inquisitive:



Your post is bad and you should feel bad

Even El Barto had more to say than just "I don't like how active the thread is"

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Shading Zack for criticizing Barto for going after low-hanging fruit. Shading Xiahou's opening for complaining about post-count and voting Zack; compares Xiahou to Barto.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Choxorn

I find myself agreeing with most of what Pizza says and getting solid town vibes from him.

Of course, given that this is Pizza, I'm not going to place him in the "definite town" column unless I get a 100% Truescan Reading on him saying he's absolutely, totally townie, and even then I'm still going to have some doubts.

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Solid town vibes from Pizza, but Pizza can never be fully trusted.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Choxorn

Logic-

First few posts are just talking about video games, total fluff

First real post is this one, in response to Pizza calling him scummy:



Then more fluff

Some stuff about how he's confused by how Pizza's playing, which is odd, because talk a bunch and engage in weird roleplaying is what Pizza always does.

Then there's this:



I still don't like this post. Still just feels off, and voting Kagemusha for an obvious joke vote looks scummy to me. His later attempt to justify it seems like he's really grasping at straws:





And this post is just wishy-washy. And still feels off to me.


Just generally Logic feels very non-committal with his suspicions, is guarded with his language, never pushing anything he says too strongly so he has room to go back on what he said earlier, and a lot of his posts are pretty light on content.

Vote: Logic

Nxe7+

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Logic ISO, concludes case against Logic for being guarded and non-commital.

What pinged me is the compartmentalized shade and sheeping without venturing anything new or evaluating players broadly on balance. What is the omission from your POV?

I looked at town Choxorn in Swords and Sorcery, where I recall him being fairly good. 4 evenly spaced few-liner posts, shift in earnest attacking and voting DP for a scummy thing he did, responding to DP's challenge with analysis of DP alone and DP-Winston, absenting himself for the second half of the day then popping back in during night to offer a fair contribution of analysis on day's events. I think one way to put the difference is that Choxorn was more precise and focused in that D1, in the one instance he addressed the game course. What Choxorn did here in his second block of posts was spreading himself thinner.

So if you want to diversify wagons,

Unvote: Zack

Vote: Choxorn

might be a better shot than Barto or Manasi.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Winston Hughes

Don't like this post.

Feels like Fredwood's playing 72/24, while GH is looking to eod.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Winston Hughes

Town play the day, scum play for the deadliine.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Winston Hughes

Town's job is to use the time available to rebalance the information equation in its favour.

Scum's job is to ensure town guesses wrong at eod.

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This progression seems off to me. It reads like you were trying to insert an opportunity to grandstand about that, because I've squinted my eyes in confusion a few times to try and find the relevance to the argument between GH and Fred, and it's not there.

On that point, I think they both come out of it looking good, actually.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Winston Hughes

GH's big post looks townie in itself, but it feels a little scummy to me that he'd make that his main engagement with the thread at this stage.

Where's the chat, GH?

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This post got me thinking about one thing that bugged me about GH in pokemon. I had him near the top of my reads lists almost the whole time I was alive, embarrassingly, but I remember still being frustrated that he wasn't engaging with me more in the thread. He seemed to pop in and out, and if he didn't want to answer a question, he'd leave the thread and ignore it. In contrast, so far that hasn't been the case (even as I know he's busy with another game). Winston was on the right track in that, if GH is a wolf he probably just drops that text bomb and leaves. But he stuck around and picked fights. And I think he really did see things in Fred's post that bothered him, and he wanted to dig in.

Fred's side looks really pure -- dunno if as a wolf he's capable of taking that criticism so easily in stride like that. Fred's back up again, but I still think that post is problematic if one of Barto and Logic is a wolf.

Upon reflection, Winston probably good too -- I think he'd be more content to stay in the background a bit more if he was scum.

Csargo responding to the Xiahou post with a simple, "why?" is EXACTLY how I was going to respond to it. X only voted me because I had a lot of posts (even though he thanked one of them, so clearly he didn't really mind that much), he never said I was scummy that I remember, but he seems to be implying that he did find something legitimately wolfy about me. I've only played with him in Pirate Ship Mafia, don't remember his behavior at all outside of the 200 gold fiasco, which I don't think is relevant here. In any case, not enough of an issue yet for me to go digging through past games for clues.

Monty -- I think the push on choxorn has merit (certainly more than the one on me :stare:).

He seems to be riding / piggybacking on Pizzaguy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Winston Hughes

Slaan
Csargo
Kage
Cuth
reinoe
Xiahou

remainder

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I think you and logic are the only ones that low on Kage. Anything specific there?

Oh, I just realized that was the null pile.

but still

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://i.imgur.com/Gvuc4Cr.png

Kage is 90% town here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

You and others have contested this (mostly indirectly), but Zack feels too free-spirited. He's committing to trivial things, but gliding about the agendas of the day. Only Csargo agrees AFAIK. If Zack flips scum I think it spews you as scum-risk, but if not I think you're a solid town read. Pizza for one believes this kind of calculation only has a place later in the game.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Winston Hughes

I like this. It speaks to my residual doubt on Zack.

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I have residual doubt on Zack, too, might just be paranoia but might not be. And I still think it's weird that he'd call out Pizza for going after what he calls "low hanging fruit" in Logic and Csargo, and then Zack proceeds to, 2 pages later, start going hard after El Barto, the lowest possible hanging of low hanging fruit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief

Winston: You might be right, I don't usually play 72/24, but can you explain how this is a Bad Thing?

Fred: My concern is still your wording, if you were fine with both wagons then I think you would have just left it at that.

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The townies have control of the day. It's generally a good idea to let it last as long as possible, to get the most information you can.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

I looked at town Choxorn in Swords and Sorcery, where I recall him being fairly good. 4 evenly spaced few-liner posts, shift in earnest attacking and voting DP for a scummy thing he did, responding to DP's challenge with analysis of DP alone and DP-Winston, absenting himself for the second half of the day then popping back in during night to offer a fair contribution of analysis on day's events. I think one way to put the difference is that Choxorn was more precise and focused in that D1, in the one instance he addressed the game course. What Choxorn did here in his second block of posts was spreading himself thinner.

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Well, yeah, but that was pretty atypical for me- it was a game where DP and Al Sips stood out to me as really scummy, pretty much right from the start. Usually I don't play very well on Day 1 and get better as the game goes on. Case in point: This game, and my game in the mafia championships where I guessed horribly wrong the first two days and went really hard after a scummy townie instead of an actual mafia.

Also, I had a lot fewer RL commitments back in February than I do right now, which is why I'm only just briefly popping in and out- that's all I really have time to do.

Quote:

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I have residual doubt on Zack, too, might just be paranoia but might not be. And I still think it's weird that he'd call out Pizza for going after what he calls "low hanging fruit" in Logic and Csargo, and then Zack proceeds to, 2 pages later, start going hard after El Barto, the lowest possible hanging of low hanging fruit.

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did you read my posts on el barto?

I'll be around for the next 40-60 minutes and I'll try to read the last ~250 posts. If anyone wants to ask anything during that time, go ahead.

I really don't like Xiahou's vote on Zack on #729. I usually employ the O.M.G.U.S. algorithm on Day One, but that reads like trying to form a counterwaggon for Logic's benefit.

vote: Xiahou

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dp101

Firstly, I wouldn’t exactly describe my r actions towards logic and Barto tearing st their throats, but anyway, I feel that out of those 3, the lynch order should be Logic > Barto > Manasi, with manasi basically being my null benchmark at this point. Barto’s outright refusal to read the thread feels like a new level of anti-town behaviour from him, and I’m starting to agree with Pizza on Logic. However, I want to emphasise here that I am not entirely sure how to read logic, and so my vote is more sheeping than anything else. Could you elaborate as to what you mean by “Logic the round before his lynch”? Are you referring to a past game here? Or do you think logic is playling like this because he thinks he is going to get lynched? I really can’t parse your statement.

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It's not an outright refusal; I said I might read it if/when I had the time. Which, having a 72-hour phase, isn't that much of a stretch.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief

I thought Reinoe's entrance was fine. Why didn't you like it?

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Didn't he vote for me?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Winston Hughes

I'm bored with being townread.

Tell me why I'm scum.

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'cos you voted for me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zack

Also, anyone who is riding the train of "Logic is scum here, because he is noticeably and explicitly different from XCOM mafia, where he was town."

Read Barto in that game, read Logic in that game. Read them both in this game.

There's a stark difference in one of them, and it's not Logic.

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How did I behave in Day One in that game?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zack

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Winston Hughes

Convince me to vote Tak, Zack.

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People refuse to read him, because he's barto. But it's not that hard.

In the CFC/MTGS game on MU, I defended him for days before finally giving up. He was town.

I don't remember the game it was, but he was worried with fixing votecounts or something while having zero interest in the actual thread. I called him out on it as being wolfy, and got a mixture of scorn and ambivalence.

In Sooh's last game, I called him out as a probable wolf again. He was scum. I barely escaped getting mislynche d1, and got immediately killed by the town vigilante.

In Representative Democracy, as my teammate, I was literally begging him in our scum chat to please, post and do something. He did nothing but occasionally pop in to complain about the number of posts and do not really anything, pretty much what he's done here.

Look at XCOM. How much time does he spend complaining about having to read the thread? Does he make thoughtless OMGUS votes then peace out?

Nope.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zack

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fredwood

As a recipient of Barto's unique version of the welcoming committee and me getting a bug in my bonnet about it, he does feel different. I feel a demonstrable difference between Bart in Xcom as opposed to Logic in XCom. Unfortunately most of Logic's play has been off the back foot so even if I did sense a change in playstyle.

I agree with Monty in the sense that Logic feels like the "correct" lynch today, but illogical me would like to vote Bart here.

Anyway fatigue etc etc etc neither have been here defending themselves etc etc etc.

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this post feels like a wolf prepping for a wolf flip

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Alternate theory: the mafioso knows the two leading bandwaggons are on people not his faction. Thus he makes a post where he faffs about, muses a bit, and contradicts himself. When one flips town he will say he really should have gone with his conscience and votes the other one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Winston Hughes

Zack is a bad vote.

Join me on GH.

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Give me a bit more justification and I might bite. At worst we'll just have given him more time in which to prepare the fourth edition of Pirate Ship Mafia (this is a good reason to lynch him, incidentally).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Winston Hughes

GH
Logic
El Barto
Manasi
choxorn

scumpile

---

Two-fingered salute it is.

vote: choxorn

Don't really want to lynch barto anymore

I'm going to bed

winston's stuff recently looks good

i like what he's doing and where he's going

movin' him up

Time's up, lads.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Choxorn

(…)Also, I had a lot fewer RL commitments back in February than I do right now, which is why I'm only just briefly popping in and out- that's all I really have time to do.

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Is this why you're voting choxorn, Zack?

I've read everything, but I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to participate much tonight. I'm wiped out after a whole bunch of studying and probably should get more sleep than normal rather than play mafia late into the night. What I will say is that Zack is becoming even more lock town to me, I really feel the push on him is criticising him playing the game effectively rather than him doing anything scummy. I also think that the Fredwood mini-push based on the "unfortunately" phrasing is really stupid, and probably a poor look for everyone involved. Such a minor phrasing thing is just a really poor thing to base a read off of. Also, I think I'm mostly off of the Logic wagon, the GH analysis feels like it pushes him more towards town than anything else. Zack's Barto case looks decent, and I think that it is probably one of the stronger options at this point in time. The swap to chox is hot garbage IMO, the strategy of lynch the lowposter is rarely a good one. I get that the posts themselves have been a tad sheepy, but not sure that it's enough to make him the lynch.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zack

did you read my posts on el barto?

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I don't think the case is totally without merit, but I think it's grasping at straws a bit- Town El Barto is also prone to complaining about how active the thread is and Town El Barto also loves to OMGUS people. And it's for sure a low-hanging fruit case, because El Barto is, by virtue of his unconventional play, always a low-hanging fruit case that scum love to go after at some point.

Vote count:

Pizza (1): Manasi

Manasi (1): GH

Zack (1): Xiahou

Logic (5): Pizza, Dp101, Slaan, Choxorn, Kagemusha

Reinoe (1): Fredwood

Kagemusha (1): Logic

El Barto (2): Reinoe, Csargo

GH (1): Winston Hughes

Choxorn (2): Montmorency, Zack

Xiahou (1): El Barto

Not voting (1): Cuthillius,

With 17 players there are 9 to hammer.


EOD1:
https://pending.me.uk/cd/bla_1507413600.png

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htobTBlCvUU

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dp101

I've read everything, but I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to participate much tonight. I'm wiped out after a whole bunch of studying and probably should get more sleep than normal rather than play mafia late into the night. What I will say is that Zack is becoming even more lock town to me, I really feel the push on him is criticising him playing the game effectively rather than him doing anything scummy. I also think that the Fredwood mini-push based on the "unfortunately" phrasing is really stupid, and probably a poor look for everyone involved. Such a minor phrasing thing is just a really poor thing to base a read off of. Also, I think I'm mostly off of the Logic wagon, the GH analysis feels like it pushes him more towards town than anything else. Zack's Barto case looks decent, and I think that it is probably one of the stronger options at this point in time. The swap to chox is hot garbage IMO, the strategy of lynch the lowposter is rarely a good one. I get that the posts themselves have been a tad sheepy, but not sure that it's enough to make him the lynch.

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don't remember you being so quick to dismiss things as stupid and hot garbage before

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Choxorn

I don't think the case is totally without merit, but I think it's grasping at straws a bit- Town El Barto is also prone to complaining about how active the thread is and Town El Barto also loves to OMGUS people. And it's for sure a low-hanging fruit case, because El Barto is, by virtue of his unconventional play, always a low-hanging fruit case that scum love to go after at some point.

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why are you defending him but not logic?

also, I was hoping that when barto said he was going to be around that long he would do a little more than that :/

Hello

If Logic flips wolf I'm going to start looking realy hard at GH btw... in the wild west game he also tried to save a mafia buddy by going after Fredwood.

That being said I don't mind his attitude rn, doesnt hurt to look further than the 'easy' lynches so that's fine

Btw whats the EoD meta here? What can I expect? CFD's? Lots of vote change? Or is it more quiet?

more quiet, though some people might be here to do stuff

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Slaan

If Logic flips wolf I'm going to start looking realy hard at GH btw... in the wild west game he also tried to save a mafia buddy by going after Fredwood.

That being said I don't mind his attitude rn, doesnt hurt to look further than the 'easy' lynches so that's fine

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Im thinking along the same lines. One reason for switching back to Logic yesterday for me was to see what GH would do.

Quick question to all before I even read up:

The people on the Logic wagon. Are we all townies? This 1-wagon formation is really not what I was expecting to come back to. I don't have an issue with anyone on the wagon though, or didn't at the time of my last post.

That's a lot of folks just spread out on random names elsewhere.

I'm highly suspicious of Cho, rest is fine

How i see Chox, is that all his townie games prepare for playing scum eventually, so there is not anything one can pick apart as difference. For that reason Chox becomes someone to be lynched at one point always, but i rather lynch him at points when there is not anything else to pursue.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dp101

Oh, I was referring to his consistent early pushing of me when he's scum. I'm pretty happy calling him town now.

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It might have happened a couple of times, but I don't think that should be a reliable tell. I know when I am scum I do try to deliberately mix it up who I push against, and it's largely based off of who I think I can call scummy based on the game state. It'd be a coincidence if it was the same person in multiple games.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cuthillius

i don't have much of a lean on winston

i've been burned in the past

i'm not going to maintain that as a read unless i actually can come up with some reason

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My gut reaction is to town read this post, regardless of where I have everyone else or the game state. It just strikes me as a genuine thought, but I don't know if I can put into words why I think so, and I'd rather go study some Cuth as scum games to get a better read for his latest scum meta. All I can remember offhand is his town game because it's been a while since he was scum against me I think.

Cuth someone I didn't have a strong read on before, so that's my homework assignment for end of round / before start of day 2.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Csargo

1. GH
2. Csargo
3. Dp101
4. Pizza
5. Fredwood
6. El Barto
7. Montmorency
8. Zack
9. Cuthillius
10. Manasi
11. Slaan
12. Reinoe
13. Choxorn
14. Winston Hughes
15. Logic
16. Xiahou
17. Kagemusha

Any of the bolded people I'd consider suspicious. Probably throw WH in there for paranoia reasons as well, maybe Zack too for tinfoil reasons.

---

This list isn't making me feel better about Csargo's slot. If you bold WH and Zack, what you have left is still a bunch of folks I've argued are town, and doesn't town read any of my suspects. He doesn't even disagree with my suspects, but he thinks I'd bus them on day 1, which is not my MO at all. I feel like there should be a dichotomy between me and Logic if you suspect either one. Actually with such strong agreement with my leans, I don't think he should be having an issue with my slot at all, which makes me think he's not actually reading my slot for alignment.

Csargo doesn't really care if you scum read him if he's town. I've seen him get wagons on him and not even react. This list just feels like it was written from a non-town perspective for Csargo.

No more or less suspect than before, but it doesn't look right to me. Feels dishonest.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Slaan

... what? Do you know what my scumrange and townrange are and could you even tell what is in one and not the other? Have you read a scum game from me to make those reads? Sorry but this post feels very bad from my point of view. What do you think is underwhelming about or going in a strange direction? Who do I shade unnecessary? You linked post is me calling out Bart for apparently being Bart and playing like crap (no offence ;)), I think calling him out on it is necessary. And yes my opening is weak, I don't care for the game in RVS and I'm not looking to solve there. I try to get to know the ppl a bit so I can better remember their names going forward... Let me put this differently: Who didnt have a weak opening in the first 2 hours?

This post just feels empty despite there being many words... same as the long post about dp previously... whats up Cuth?

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This post reads generically like it could be scum taking advantage of a weak/attackable post by a townie. But all of those questions also feel legitimate and I feel like this could all be normal Slaan.

What I mean another way, is that this is the kind of post I look for motive on, because if Cuth is town, that post was really attackable, and how people attack suspicious posts tells me a lot about their real process. Passive aggression is something I've been noting across games more and more as a fairly reliable generic scumtell, if passive aggression is not in the person's town playbook. Something about being scum causes people to give easier justifications for scumreading people, and they also tend to distance themselves from that suspicion. Not always, not even in the majority of cases, but they do like to make it someone else's fault that they're scum reading them and they also tend to phrase the suspicion like innocent questions or smudges as opposed to "X is a wolf for this post".

This post would fit that pattern in general of Just Asking Questions to smudge Cuthillius. But my gut is telling me to discount that, like the reasons Slaan is doing it would be more like his own personality causing him to react this way to Cuth. The specific questions on townrange/scumrange and the question on who had a strong opening in the first couple hours feel like solving questions Slaan would most likely legitimately have.

So it fits a scummy pattern in the generic sense, but I don't think the tell is reliable in this specific instance. Slaan can be scum, I haven't locked him town, but this post isn't pushing me in that direction, even though it fits stuff I tend to look for.

I don't know Slaan's range, all I remember is that he was a seemingly competent and fun town player in his champs game. That's all I got. My town is pretty full but I still don't think he's doing anything here that would lead to kicking him out, despite the List Of Questions style post.

I'll break this up so it's not a big wall, posting and continuing.

@reinoe

I'm somewhere around here right now:

Zack
Kage
Monty

Dp101
reinoe
Slaan
Logic
Winston
ATPG

---town line---

Csargo
Xiahou
Cuth
Fredwood
El Barto

Choxorn
Manasi

~~~~~~

Zack is obvious town, Kage I already talked about, Monty seems like usual Monty.

The people in the next best slot all are either matching their town meta or are otherwise helping push the gamestate along in a way I consider to be townie.

Xiahou I think might be town just off the two post reads but I'm not arrogant enough to move him up a tier for that. I don't really have a read on Csargo and Cuth is sort of improving for me since I voted him early on in the phase as he gets more engaged, but he's not there yet. Fredwood I need to take another look at now that we've had some distance from our interaction yesterday and how it went down.

Choxorn as town just has... more bite to him. I'm not really seeing that from him here. Compare his some of his posts in Swords and Sorcery, where he was town:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Choxorn

I didn't know there was a lynchproof spell, it wasn't among my options.



I don't like this post at all, it sounds like what a scum would say if they wanted to defend a scumbuddy and go after the one attacking them. What do you mean, would have found something else by now? It's been a few pages, and it's still day 1, there's not much to go on.

Vote: Dp101



Well, only for one hand, he can still get more for his other hand, can't he (oh dear god, please no)

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Choxorn

[snip]
At this point I'd say Sooh is probably scum unless she has a really good explanation for what happened night 1 and can show up today and stop acting like a scum with low wim who's resigned to defeat. If not her, lynch Snerk, if not either of them, lynch Csargo.

Vote: Sooh

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To posts in Representative Democracy, where he was mafia:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Choxorn

You missed my district vote for Cuth.



And I thought Pizza's textwalls were bad...

Seriously, make your point more succinctly, or quote some of the posts you're referring to, or something, because this is more or less a bland wall of text, it's hard to see the evidence if you don't quote anything Zack has actually said, and I can't really parse a lot of it to make sense of what your argument is.

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And he's just more direct and to the point when he's town. So far the closest note he's hit here is probably this post:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Choxorn

> Says Pizza is going after low-hanging fruit
> Votes El Barto

:inquisitive:



Your post is bad and you should feel bad

Even El Barto had more to say than just "I don't like how active the thread is"

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Which isn't quite there.

Well, it was just a normal Slaan response to a read post about me that doesnt make sense from my perspective, I think I'd respond this way as either alignment. Same way I'm now voting on Logic because of his read on me, Winston's read on me also pinged me a bit scummy and why I questioned Fred's townread on me. Reads towards me are always of considerable interest because trying to see how they got that read can tell me what mindset they have in regards to solving...

And on the subject of Cuth... for some reason I have him as a strong player in my mind but I'm starting to question it ... don't even know how I came to that conclusion in the first place, probably the different coloured nametag on MU and having talked with him on discord during champ games... anyway, I expected alot from him and his read on me fell way short.

Interesting analysis on the passive aggressive thing though... and I agree on principle although I might get into trouble for that considering I can be pretty p/a in general :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cuthillius

no? i haven't read a single wolfgame from you, i'm just comparing it to when i have played with you, particularly anni

you just

are going in directions that... i don't expect and i don't think are the most productive, and i'm honestly not going to bother isoing you and quoting more

because it's a relatively thin read from my single read-through of this thread

and there's no huge reason i feel is making me want to or need to figure you out at this point

and... most people didn't have that weak of an opening? or at least felt more natural or, as is probably more applicable in the case, acted like i'm used to them acting, in that i've played with most of them at least multiple times

do you have a particular issue with me talking through a read of you/anyone else if i don't come to a firm conclusion at this point in the game?

---

Strikes me as a real thought townies have.

It may not be a perfect process, but I often have to juggle who I invest my time in. I often deliberately put some people in a vaguely town or vaguely suspect limbo state and wait until they do more, or I have more time, to tackle the slot.

I feel like such thoughts go missing from a scum-perspective. That's not on the forefront of their mind which is why this is more town indicative when you see it.

It's not widely thought of as a town tell so only the truly best scum actors should be faking this brainwave.

That should mean I have a strong town read on Cuth by now. I don't think my gut has caught up to my head.

@GH Why do you have Logic so far up? He hasnt really been pushing the thread forward or anything really... Even if you don't agree with pizzas point or mine to have him so far above Xiahua who has similarly done not much... ?

PS: Can someone tell me why 'reply to thread' button sometimes opens a 'quick reply' window at the bottom and sometimes take me to the 'detailed reply' form?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Slaan

@GH Why do you have Logic so far up? He hasnt really been pushing the thread forward or anything really... Even if you don't agree with pizzas point or mine to have him so far above Xiahua who has similarly done not much... ?

PS: Can someone tell me why 'reply to thread' button sometimes opens a 'quick reply' window at the bottom and sometimes take me to the 'detailed reply' form?

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Logic has a larger sample size than Xiahou to judge, and he's acting in line with his town meta as per the context of the game as I mentioned yesterday. :yes:

No idea about the other issue unfortunately. Just one of those things.

@GH/Pizza: do you guys know how both of you have such different interpretations of Logics meta? Do you feel like the other is lying/pushing a mislynch ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Slaan

@GH/Pizza: do you guys know how both of you have such different interpretations of Logics meta? Do you feel like the other is lying/pushing a mislynch ?

---

I don't think it's a different interpretation of Logic's meta so much as Pizza's case kind of just snowballing. At the time Pizza initially posted his first suspicion of Logic, Logic was still just interacting with the thread and engaging in the general fluffposting that had characterized the game to that point and called him out for it. As I mentioned in the big wall I made yesterday, Logic got down to the game faster in Pokemon, but that was also because everybody got down to the game faster in Pokemon.

Pizza also has a tendency to tunnel every now and then. I think he does it more as town than mafia, and he's right maybe a bit >rand, and he's been getting better at not doing it lately, but he still does it from time to time and I think the foundation of his tunnel is flawed here as I pointed out last night.

Hence, snowballing.

Quote:

---

Xiahou I think might be town just off the two post reads but I'm not arrogant enough to move him up a tier for that.

---

???

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

Quick question to all before I even read up:

The people on the Logic wagon. Are we all townies? This 1-wagon formation is really not what I was expecting to come back to. I don't have an issue with anyone on the wagon though, or didn't at the time of my last post.

That's a lot of folks just spread out on random names elsewhere.

---

I think the most likely scenario is:

you are town, logic is a mislynch, wolves are blowing smoke up your butt to encourage it

I will be in and out today, most likely

will try to get the tiers list I talked about yesterday settled

should be here for eod

monty's interaction with winston/zack at the beginning of the game is really really weird

i just

don't think it's particularly game-related

it

still really just bothers me a little

i feel like he drags something that's unrelated anything out for no discernable reason?

it's not even fluff or stuff, it just feels like it's taking fluff and... almost trying to get it to a game-related area without doing so?

probably reading into it too much

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

This list isn't making me feel better about Csargo's slot. If you bold WH and Zack, what you have left is still a bunch of folks I've argued are town, and doesn't town read any of my suspects. He doesn't even disagree with my suspects, but he thinks I'd bus them on day 1, which is not my MO at all. I feel like there should be a dichotomy between me and Logic if you suspect either one. Actually with such strong agreement with my leans, I don't think he should be having an issue with my slot at all, which makes me think he's not actually reading my slot for alignment.

Csargo doesn't really care if you scum read him if he's town. I've seen him get wagons on him and not even react. This list just feels like it was written from a non-town perspective for Csargo.

No more or less suspect than before, but it doesn't look right to me. Feels dishonest.

---

It was probably a poor decision to bold you in that list tbh, since I would probably lump you in with Zack/WH at this point. My vote has just been a placeholder for a while now. Zack/WH/ATPG are me just being cautious about just lumping you all as town without due diligence on my part. It's still early and I think doing so would be a mistake. I did say at some point that the Logic flip would effect my view, which seems clear to me, but maybe I didn't make it so, but I really like holding contradictory views in my head, which has already been pointed out :). I honestly don't really town read anyone at this point, besides Kage, Monty, and DP101, I feel good about a lot of the unbolded people in my list, but I'm not really town reading them per se. As far as reading your slot for alignment, I'll just say that I'm being obstinate ~:wink:.

Just because we've come to the same conclusions on who is suspect at this point doesn't mean that you can't be scum or I can't be scum. It's just waiting for flips to see.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Logic

I don't get it. I've not seen pizza play like this before. I know everything he does has a purpose, but here it feels like he is just playing by the seat if his pants. I'm confused, but I don't know if am am more or less so than Dp.

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this post feels mildly discredit-y