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The state is the means to get people to work together.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skullheadhq
And if one group feels left out, they will rebel, and we will stop working together. Democracy includes everyone, nobody feels left out and everyone works together.
Yes, I am aware of ETA etc, but that is exactly my point, the ETA are militant exactly because they do not feel that their voice is heard, they do not feel included.
No, the state is the means to rule the country as good as possible, nothing more, nothing less.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Spain is a democracy, your argument is invalid.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
How can you rule something that isn't working?Quote:
Originally Posted by Skullheadhq
And wouldn't you define "the country" to mean "the people"?
No, it proves my point perfectly. Spain is a democracy, yes, but not at a good enough level that the Basques feel included and heard. When they feel included and heard, they will lay down their weapons instantly. And the way to achieve that is through more democracy, not less.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skullheadhq
Rubbish. The Basques are over such a small area they'd be subsumed in democracy as part of Spain. They want a democracy of their little area.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
~:smoking:
Are you implying people didn't work before democracy? People don't work for the government but for food, mortgage etc. etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
No.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Their problem is that they don't feel that their voice is heard. How to make that voice heard, in their own democracy or within a spanish democracy is a secondary logistical problem. They say they want their own country, sure, but if they feel their voice is being heard as part of a spanish democracy, they will accept that.Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
No, you've misunderstood me completely.....And I'm not sure how to explain it any better, unfortunately.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skullheadhq
It's not that they're not being heard, they already have a great deal of autonomy but their only goal is independence from Spain, how much autonomy or democracy you'll give them doesn't really matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
....And why do they want independence from Spain?Quote:
Originally Posted by Skullheadhq
Because they feel they're not being heard. Why else would they want indepedence? Because they're really big on new flags?
You're so funny.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separatism
Uhm, yes? Seperatism is what happens when a group doesn't feel like it's heard and seen, which is what I've been saying all along....Quote:
Originally Posted by Skullheadhq
You seem determined to stamp your views on everyone else. They want independence to be... independent.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
~:smoking:
......because......?Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
Let's try again.
I don't want to be part of the EU. This has nothing to do with "being heard". I want nothing to do with the EU.
I don't want to be the 51st state. This has nothing to do with "being heard".
Are you now going to tell me that in fact I do want to be part of the EU, I am just worried about not being heard?
~:smoking:
Why don't you want to?Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
Because I see myself as English and I do not want to join in any greater gestalt.
~:smoking:
And why is it important for you to identify yourself as English?Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
Because it is. It is a belief.
~:smoking:
Everything can be explained, my good rory ~;)Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
Basque separatism has nothing to do with democracy. As with Catalonia, as the wealthier and more industrialised parts of Spain, they are unhappy at seeing their funds pouring into Andalusia and such places. As always, economic realities determine how things work. Come one HoreTore, a leftie should accept that!
Democracy only really works with a nation state. For proof, see Belgium...
.....But when people see "their funds pouring into Andalucia and other places", can we say that they have been heard and seen?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr
And yet there are more examples I can think of where people accept seeing their funds pour into other parts of the country, like western Norway, yet we see no seperatism there, do we?
@ Horetore
A quick look at a topographic map and then a population density map shows the fact the two big regions which agitate most for independence have a high population and they feel they are separate from the rest of Spain both culturally and physically too due to the mountains between them and Madrid.
There is both a huge mountain running through the middle of Norway and there are big populations(granted, in a Norwegian scale) on both sides with very few in-between. If what you say is true: why is Norway a country?Quote:
Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy
Because the pattern of settlement was influenced by marine factors.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Much easier to keep everyone feeling they belong in Norway if they feel connected by the sea.
There is no sea route to any of Spain's either historical or present day capitals they pretty much been inland for a long while now.
Plus the Basques and Catalans are probably more likely to oreient to a Northern power centre even if they have arguements with France part of the ancient Homelands are the other side of the Pyrennes.
Hmmmm..... So, what you're saying, is that the people living in Norway stay together because they feel they are being heard....hmmm, interesting....Quote:
Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy
No it absolutely has nothing to do with being heard.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
For example Ireland is separated by water from UK this means the ability of the UK to submerge Irish culture is vastly reduced unlike say in Wales which has a land border with England.
In the 19th century we were eventually allowed to practice our religon freely we could vote for Irish parties to be Heard the story we told them was for UK to go home. No amount of being listened too was going to stop that revolution it was inevitable when the boot was off our neck.
Britain was not going to do the kind of actual extermination war like summit from Africa they needed to stop us, yes they loosed the Tans on Ireland but in the grand scheme of things it was a dying sting of an empire who could not decide which way they should turn.
What you're describing is still the symptoms of one root cause, that of, you guessed it, not being heard. The Irish had gone several centuries without being heard at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy
Being heard, taken seriously and then challenged is the fundamental need all humans have to be productive in a micro level. I haven't seen any indication that it's any different on a macro level.
EDIT: Do note that I'm not being literal here.... An example of "being heard"(or seen) can be a co-worker that fills up your coffee mug in the morning just before you come in.
EDIT2: standing in the doorways, shaking hands with and welcoming every pupil into the classroom every morning is a nice and very easy way of making sure that every one of my pupils are seen.
The point is that it doesn't matter whether or not Basques are heard in Madrid, since the votes from all the other regions overrule theirs. The only way you could make the Basque voice effective is to make their vote worth more than that of other Spaniards, which would be undemocratic.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Norway works as a country because its people are united by historical factors. For Spain, that is true to a far lesser extent. The different regions feel they have different needs because of their different histories. They are just too different to work together effectively (or so they say).
What you just described is a classical example of "not being heard".Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr
No your still not getting it the people felt different and they were generally treated different because both side agreed we were different. Once we were allowed to properly organise we did not use this power to engage with Britain but to actively disengage.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
This was there from day one and will be still in us long after any of us on the org are dust.
The cultural, religious and the geographical factors all combined to ensure no amount of blandishments and Hearing people could stop the feeling we did not belong in this marriage together.
Britain could point to schools an civil service jobs now available to catholics they could point to reform of landlordism and they gave us the vote an new roads and rail none of it mattered the people had been awakened the game was up.
So, because the people were so different, they didn't think it was possible for them to ever be heard? So because they weren't heard, they decided to abandon the union?Quote:
Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy