What should the voting age be?

**Rhyfelwyr** · 11-03-2010, 19:07

Basque separatism has nothing to do with democracy. As with Catalonia, as the wealthier and more industrialised parts of Spain, they are unhappy at seeing their funds pouring into Andalusia and such places. As always, economic realities determine how things work. Come one HoreTore, a leftie should accept that!

Democracy only really works with a nation state. For proof, see Belgium...

**HoreTore** · 11-03-2010, 19:12

Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

Basque separatism has nothing to do with democracy. As with Catalonia, as the wealthier and more industrialised parts of Spain, they are unhappy at seeing their funds pouring into Andalusia and such places. As always, economic realities determine how things work.

.....But when people see "their funds pouring into Andalucia and other places", can we say that they have been heard and seen?

And yet there are more examples I can think of where people accept seeing their funds pour into other parts of the country, like western Norway, yet we see no seperatism there, do we?

**gaelic cowboy** · 11-03-2010, 19:15

@ Horetore

A quick look at a topographic map and then a population density map shows the fact the two big regions which agitate most for independence have a high population and they feel they are separate from the rest of Spain both culturally and physically too due to the mountains between them and Madrid.

**HoreTore** · 11-03-2010, 19:18

Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy

@ Horetore

A quick look at a topographic map and then a population density map shows the fact the two big regions which agitate most for independence have a high population and they feel they are separate from the rest of Spain both culturally and physically too due to the mountains between them and Madrid.

There is both a huge mountain running through the middle of Norway and there are big populations(granted, in a Norwegian scale) on both sides with very few in-between. If what you say is true: why is Norway a country?

**gaelic cowboy** · 11-03-2010, 19:21

Originally Posted by HoreTore

There is both a huge mountain running through the middle of Norway and there are big populations(granted, in a Norwegian scale) on both sides with very few in-between. If what you say is true: why is Norway a country?

Because the pattern of settlement was influenced by marine factors.

Much easier to keep everyone feeling they belong in Norway if they feel connected by the sea.

There is no sea route to any of Spain's either historical or present day capitals they pretty much been inland for a long while now.

Plus the Basques and Catalans are probably more likely to oreient to a Northern power centre even if they have arguements with France part of the ancient Homelands are the other side of the Pyrennes.

**HoreTore** · 11-03-2010, 19:29

Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy

Because the pattern of settlement was influenced by marine factors.

Much easier to keep everyone feeling they belong in Norway if they feel connected by the sea.

Hmmmm..... So, what you're saying, is that the people living in Norway stay together because they feel they are being heard....hmmm, interesting....

**gaelic cowboy** · 11-03-2010, 19:40

Originally Posted by HoreTore

Hmmmm..... So, what you're saying, is that the people living in Norway stay together because they feel they are being heard....hmmm, interesting....

No it absolutely has nothing to do with being heard.

For example Ireland is separated by water from UK this means the ability of the UK to submerge Irish culture is vastly reduced unlike say in Wales which has a land border with England.

In the 19th century we were eventually allowed to practice our religon freely we could vote for Irish parties to be Heard the story we told them was for UK to go home. No amount of being listened too was going to stop that revolution it was inevitable when the boot was off our neck.

Britain was not going to do the kind of actual extermination war like summit from Africa they needed to stop us, yes they loosed the Tans on Ireland but in the grand scheme of things it was a dying sting of an empire who could not decide which way they should turn.

**HoreTore** · 11-03-2010, 19:47

Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy

No it absolutely has nothing to do with being heard.

For example Ireland is separated by water from UK this means the ability of the UK to submerge Irish culture is vastly reduced unlike say in Wales which has a land border with England.

In the 19th century we were eventually allowed to practice our religon freely we could vote for Irish parties to be Heard the story we told them was for UK to go home. No amount of being listened too was going to stop that revolution it was inevitable when the boot was off our neck.

Britain was not going to do the kind of actual extermination war like summit from Africa they needed to stop us, yes they loosed the Tans on Ireland but in the grand scheme of things it was a dying sting of an empire who could not decide which way they should turn.

What you're describing is still the symptoms of one root cause, that of, you guessed it, not being heard. The Irish had gone several centuries without being heard at all.

Being heard, taken seriously and then challenged is the fundamental need all humans have to be productive in a micro level. I haven't seen any indication that it's any different on a macro level.

EDIT: Do note that I'm not being literal here.... An example of "being heard"(or seen) can be a co-worker that fills up your coffee mug in the morning just before you come in.

EDIT2: standing in the doorways, shaking hands with and welcoming every pupil into the classroom every morning is a nice and very easy way of making sure that every one of my pupils are seen.