What should the voting age be?

[gaelic cowboy]

There is both a huge mountain running through the middle of Norway and there are big populations(granted, in a Norwegian scale) on both sides with very few in-between. If what you say is true: why is Norway a country?

Because the pattern of settlement was influenced by marine factors.

Much easier to keep everyone feeling they belong in Norway if they feel connected by the sea.

There is no sea route to any of Spain's either historical or present day capitals they pretty much been inland for a long while now.

Plus the Basques and Catalans are probably more likely to oreient to a Northern power centre even if they have arguements with France part of the ancient Homelands are the other side of the Pyrennes.

[HoreTore]

Because the pattern of settlement was influenced by marine factors.

Much easier to keep everyone feeling they belong in Norway if they feel connected by the sea.

Hmmmm..... So, what you're saying, is that the people living in Norway stay together because they feel they are being heard....hmmm, interesting....

[gaelic cowboy]

Hmmmm..... So, what you're saying, is that the people living in Norway stay together because they feel they are being heard....hmmm, interesting....

No it absolutely has nothing to do with being heard.

For example Ireland is separated by water from UK this means the ability of the UK to submerge Irish culture is vastly reduced unlike say in Wales which has a land border with England.

In the 19th century we were eventually allowed to practice our religon freely we could vote for Irish parties to be Heard the story we told them was for UK to go home. No amount of being listened too was going to stop that revolution it was inevitable when the boot was off our neck.

Britain was not going to do the kind of actual extermination war like summit from Africa they needed to stop us, yes they loosed the Tans on Ireland but in the grand scheme of things it was a dying sting of an empire who could not decide which way they should turn.

[HoreTore]

No it absolutely has nothing to do with being heard.

For example Ireland is separated by water from UK this means the ability of the UK to submerge Irish culture is vastly reduced unlike say in Wales which has a land border with England.

In the 19th century we were eventually allowed to practice our religon freely we could vote for Irish parties to be Heard the story we told them was for UK to go home. No amount of being listened too was going to stop that revolution it was inevitable when the boot was off our neck.

Britain was not going to do the kind of actual extermination war like summit from Africa they needed to stop us, yes they loosed the Tans on Ireland but in the grand scheme of things it was a dying sting of an empire who could not decide which way they should turn.

What you're describing is still the symptoms of one root cause, that of, you guessed it, not being heard. The Irish had gone several centuries without being heard at all.

Being heard, taken seriously and then challenged is the fundamental need all humans have to be productive in a micro level. I haven't seen any indication that it's any different on a macro level.



EDIT: Do note that I'm not being literal here.... An example of "being heard"(or seen) can be a co-worker that fills up your coffee mug in the morning just before you come in.

EDIT2: standing in the doorways, shaking hands with and welcoming every pupil into the classroom every morning is a nice and very easy way of making sure that every one of my pupils are seen.

[Rhyfelwyr]

What you're describing is still the symptoms of one root cause, that of, you guessed it, not being heard. The Irish had gone several centuries without being heard at all.

The point is that it doesn't matter whether or not Basques are heard in Madrid, since the votes from all the other regions overrule theirs. The only way you could make the Basque voice effective is to make their vote worth more than that of other Spaniards, which would be undemocratic.

Norway works as a country because its people are united by historical factors. For Spain, that is true to a far lesser extent. The different regions feel they have different needs because of their different histories. They are just too different to work together effectively (or so they say).

[HoreTore]

since the votes from all the other regions overrule theirs.

What you just described is a classical example of "not being heard".

[Sasaki Kojiro]

since the votes from all the other regions overrule theirs.

What you just described is a classical example of "not being heard".

Weren't you claiming democracy was the answer? But in a democracy their vote would be vastly outnumbered.

[Rhyfelwyr]

What you just described is a classical example of "not being heard".

No, they are heard, and their voice is overruled. That is what happens with democracy. Your solution of more democracy does not make sense. The only way to allow the Basques to have an active role in running the affairs of Spain is to have less democracy, to allow the much smaller Basque population to have the same impact on the political system as the larger population in the rest of the country.

[gaelic cowboy]

What you're describing is still the symptoms of one root cause, that of, you guessed it, not being heard. The Irish had gone several centuries without being heard at all.

Being heard, taken seriously and then challenged is the fundamental need all humans have to be productive in a micro level. I haven't seen any indication that it's any different on a macro level.

No your still not getting it the people felt different and they were generally treated different because both side agreed we were different. Once we were allowed to properly organise we did not use this power to engage with Britain but to actively disengage.

This was there from day one and will be still in us long after any of us on the org are dust.

The cultural, religious and the geographical factors all combined to ensure no amount of blandishments and Hearing people could stop the feeling we did not belong in this marriage together.

Britain could point to schools an civil service jobs now available to catholics they could point to reform of landlordism and they gave us the vote an new roads and rail none of it mattered the people had been awakened the game was up.

[HoreTore]

No your still not getting it the people felt different and they were generally treated different because both side agreed we were different. Once we were allowed to properly organise we did not use this power to engage with Britain but to actively disengage.

This was there from day one and will be still in us long after any of us on the org are dust.

The cultural, religious and the geographical factors all combined to ensure no amount of blandishments and Hearing people could stop the feeling we did not belong in this marriage together.

Britain could point to schools an civil service jobs now available to catholics they could point to reform of landlordism and they gave us the vote an new roads and rail none of it mattered the people had been awakened the game was up.

So, because the people were so different, they didn't think it was possible for them to ever be heard? So because they weren't heard, they decided to abandon the union?

[gaelic cowboy]

Horetore I think I just made the point that when we were Heard the narrative we gave to London was to disengage, these other nations and cultures like Catalonia are most defo saying go home so it must be you who is not listening.