with how newcomb got yoinked the other day i wouldnt be surprised if cape was voted out today and im slightly bervous about that
04-28-2022, 01:16
katze
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
vote: to enable majority
04-28-2022, 01:18
katze
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
eh
vote: monty
i still kinda think it's cape over this but maybe i'm just wrong again tbh
04-28-2022, 01:22
Dobby
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by katze
eh
vote: monty
i still kinda think it's cape over this but maybe i'm just wrong again tbh
love u if tru
btw an hour ago or something i thought day ended today but aparently we have 24 more hoursof waiting
give maj plaes
04-28-2022, 01:31
katze
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobby
love u if tru
btw an hour ago or something i thought day ended today but aparently we have 24 more hoursof waiting
give maj plaes
will u love me if its cape? :pleading_face:
04-28-2022, 01:32
Dobby
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by katze
will u love me if its cape? :pleading_face:
ill lve you even if its you ~:grouphug:
04-28-2022, 01:36
katze
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobby
ill lve you even if its you ~:grouphug:
now i wish it was :sweetheart:
04-28-2022, 01:36
hollowkatt
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuthillius
i adore that this has just taken on such a vibrant life of its own
fyi I'm thanking this in post
04-28-2022, 01:40
hollowkatt
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by katze
i hope one of you is a wolf so they bring the other to F3
my ideal f3 is me, you, and raskol b/c shitposting galore
04-28-2022, 01:42
Cuthillius
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobby
cuth is always in f3 and theres nothing any of us can do about that
off the top of my head i can't really remember being in f3 in a long game as v in a meaningful capacity in a long time
i tried to in alpacas but it didn't work
04-28-2022, 01:43
Cuthillius
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobby
idk if nsfw (idk if it even is) jokes are allowed here butt
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
at work it means per rectum
lmfao
(i mistyped poe)
04-28-2022, 01:44
katze
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by hollowkatt
my ideal f3 is me, you, and raskol b/c shitposting galore
if i were in that f3 i'd probably cry trying to solve it
04-28-2022, 02:01
Dobby
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by hollowkatt
my ideal f3 is me, you, and raskol b/c shitposting galore
im slightly insulted
04-28-2022, 02:07
hollowkatt
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by katze
if i were in that f3 i'd probably cry trying to solve it
But imagine the shitposting opportunities. Also yes, I would too
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobby
im slightly insulted
Please don't be! While I believe in my heart of hearts you can shitpost with the best of them you're too pure and kind. Plus I'd just snap vote whomever else was there and that's no fun.
04-28-2022, 02:07
Sleep
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuthillius
can't wait to dunk on you in f3 again gira
if i'm there again i'm snap voting you
though really it's my fault for not outing my LOCK MAFIA "sort these players from v to w" tell
04-28-2022, 02:11
Dobby
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by hollowkatt
But imagine the shitposting opportunities. Also yes, I would too
Please don't be! While I believe in my heart of hearts you can shitpost with the best of them you're too pure and kind. Plus I'd just snap vote whomever else was there and that's no fun.
im not kind this is the first game i havent tilted in (yet) in... months or years
04-28-2022, 02:17
Sleep
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
also jeez yall blew this thread up
04-28-2022, 02:17
Montmorency
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by zack
did Dobby ever explain why he reacted to dolby dying twice 5 hours apart like that?
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
idk what happened but I'm on my phone and somehow the above got posted to my blog instead of the thread
The question was answered yesterday, bit I'm just sad @zack erased Double A's claim to history. :teardrop:
Quote:
Originally Posted by katze
i dont understand what approximately any of this means
i was the top poster d1 what do you mean "without much thread presence"
During EOD you were, like Ender, present but in the background noncomittally.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hollowkatt
what if:
I guess the big question of the day is this: was there a wolf on Ladd and given their role and given the way the wagon flashed out of nowhere I'm inclined to think wolves were trying to save Ladd more so than gain credit from being on his wagon. Obvs they could not be flashy about saving him b/c it would out them.
I've said before, the crucial element of EOD1 was that only 1-2 Mafia were active, and Ender we now know never moved his vote off Newcomb throughout EOD. Isn't it likely that Mafia simply were not at all in control of the wagons and more or less passively hoped to nudge them to their benefit?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleep
he was drawing a reasonable amount of heat for being inactive most of the day, especially from zack
i also felt like he tried to put momentum on newcomb/rask start of day 2 which is certainly not doing nothing. possible to be town who drew the wrong conclusions, i certainly did, but this desnt really fit my view
(also i had a very dumb shower thought this morning)
I voted Neb and gave Rask a daypass in my first post of D2.
I have few posts how are they so easy to misread!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobby
Hey i was going to do this but now someone else did pog
Looking at those vc's I think yes Rask is never wolf, cuth with the first vote on ladd during that eod (other that winston's that i dont count here) to make him a legit wagon when people sussed him already looks good for him.
If a wolf places a vote on ladd here it's - let's look at it.
Rask's vote was within seconds from Monty's vote and both were at :00. Rask's vote can pretty certainly be seen as self-pres. He could've placed a vote that looked good for the mafia sorcerer, but didn't, he voted him.
Those two votes took ladd from 2 votes to 4 votes, and suddenly he went from being one of many wagons, to top one.
Let me stop you right there. In the second before I and Rask simulvoted ladd, Sleep had wagoned and unwagoned ladd: Newcomb > ladd > Newcomb. Right before that, nebbie voted Rask and katze voted Newcomb. So far all either I, and perhaps Rask, knew of the threadstate we were voting to tie ladd 3-3 (ladd-Rask), put ladd past the protowagons with 3, or even tie 3-3-3 (ladd-NC-Rask).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobby
So i just ctrl f:ed "mont" in the first dayphase to see if he had written anything, or if anyone else had mentioned him
These sequences have been covered ig like 10 times already, yet very few people bring up monster's FOS on me for voting him, and no one has ever quoted this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montmorency
Quote:
Originally Posted by ladd
I read a couple of monty games on this forums and he seems to have no problems posting as a wolf. can the orgers elaborate on why they think he is a wolf from his 3 posts?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ladd
you going after monty was spooky, then I saw the other orgers thought he was a wolf too so maybe I was missing some meta but from a quick skim of 2 of his games he seems like a perfectly competent wolf so i dont realy see whats up
Which games though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zack
just for the record, this isn't an ironclad meta-read or anything, it's partly to see how he reacts / light a fire under his bum. (if ladd is a wolf he may have tmi'd monty town in #554 )
more generally, v possible we are v/v and having a hard time communicating with each other
also this is somewhat tangential but i think newcomb is probably Just A Villager here
So bomb ladd.
Seriously, someone assemble all my mentions or interactions of flipped mafiosi, add it up.
@Cuthilius
Remember the failure of Mass Effect (we Tdomed to KO Town).
Quote:
I mean, it mostly looks bad for ladd (lol), but if i turn it around i think yes it can be to put a shield up on a townie that a lot of people push
but it could definitely also be about a teammate that he shields and has a read that he wants cred for when they get ml'ed
As an aside, isn't it a contradiction for ladd to shield a teammate for ML credit later? If I'm his teammate then I wouldn't be an ML by definition.
Quote:
AND MONTY TRIED TO UNVOTE LADD AT :01 TO MAKE HIM NOT TOP WAGON!!
so yes, monty definitely doesn't get cred for it.
only sus
monty you get sus.
You act like it's a bad thing to unvote there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobby
its mostly because benneh, rask and sleep are in my nope never voting tier and just below that are hk and cuth so i wouldnt call it skeptical but if not in you cape monty then yes thats the next tier (im too dumb to count how many yoinks we have left)
Day 3-4-5-6
NK 3-4-5
There are 9 players left. If Cuth and Rask are town they should be NKed. I said before I would expect the F3 to be something like neb-dob-cape.
But speaking of wagonomics, HK of all people should get what was doing. Think of, like, every game we've ever played together (which admittedly might only be a couple).
Quote:
Originally Posted by nebjiamn
not really a case just some gut feelings about how ender interacted with cuth about his wolf reads
i'm a bit too lazy to bother with it today with monty seeming like they're always going over so i'm trying to save face in case he flips wolf
You think Ender was interacting with ladd and Cuth in the same exact conflictual distancing style?
Quote:
Originally Posted by nebjiamn
. . .
I'll repeat again that katze and dobby voted NC and Rask, respectively, at the exact same time (EOD-2), when the formation was still broken into many protowagons. Both of them thought they were pushing someone into the lead. This is important context for evaluating wagons.
04-28-2022, 02:23
Dobby
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montmorency
The question was answered yesterday, bit I'm just sad @zack erased Double A's claim to history. :teardrop:
During EOD you were, like Ender, present but in the background noncomittally.
I've said before, the crucial element of EOD1 was that only 1-2 Mafia were active, and Ender we now know never moved his vote off Newcomb throughout EOD. Isn't it likely that Mafia simply were not at all in control of the wagons and more or less passively hoped to nudge them to their benefit?
I voted Neb and gave Rask a daypass in my first post of D2.
I have few posts how are they so easy to misread!!!
Let me stop you right there. In the second before I and Rask simulvoted ladd, Sleep had wagoned and unwagoned ladd: Newcomb > ladd > Newcomb. Right before that, nebbie voted Rask and katze voted Newcomb. So far all either I, and perhaps Rask, knew of the threadstate we were voting to tie ladd 3-3 (ladd-Rask), put ladd past the protowagons with 3, or even tie 3-3-3 (ladd-NC-Rask).
These sequences have been covered ig like 10 times already, yet very few people bring up monster's FOS on me for voting him, and no one has ever quoted this:
Seriously, someone assemble all my mentions or interactions of flipped mafiosi, add it up.
@Cuthilius
Remember the failure of Mass Effect (we Tdomed to KO Town).
As an aside, isn't it a contradiction for ladd to shield a teammate for ML credit later? If I'm his teammate then I wouldn't be an ML by definition.
You act like it's a bad thing to unvote there.
Day 3-4-5-6
NK 3-4-5
There are 9 players left. If Cuth and Rask are town they should be NKed. I said before I would expect the F3 to be something like neb-dob-cape.
Explained multiple times. I'll ask you to ISO.
And testing you and Winston, specifically.
But speaking of wagonomics, HK of all people should get what was doing. Think of, like, every game we've ever played together (which admittedly might only be a couple).
You think Ender was interacting with ladd and Cuth in the same exact conflictual distancing style?
I'll repeat again that katze and dobby voted NC and Rask, respectively, at the exact same time (EOD-2), when the formation was still broken into many protowagons. Both of them thought they were pushing someone into the lead. This is important context for evaluating wagons.
i dont think ive voted newcomb all game sir
also benneh is never in f3, neither will cape :P
also i kinda looked at your interactions with flipped wolves and posted it (or the relevant stuff from it) i know you addressed ender a lot but he forgot to answer all of it or something if so :P
04-28-2022, 02:26
Sleep
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuthillius
off the top of my head i can't really remember being in f3 in a long game as v in a meaningful capacity in a long time
i tried to in alpacas but it didn't work
its horrible ive done it multiple times in the past year and i lost all but one and the one with you was somehow the least enervating (voting wrong sucks way more than being hammered)
04-28-2022, 02:28
Cuthillius
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleep
if i'm there again i'm snap voting you
though really it's my fault for not outing my LOCK MAFIA "sort these players from v to w" tell
ah yes the lock i do it in literally every game except this one because i can't be arsed to delete the numbers from in front of people's names in the playerlist
04-28-2022, 02:29
Dobby
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobby
i dont think ive voted newcomb all game sir
also benneh is never in f3, neither will cape :P
also i kinda looked at your interactions with flipped wolves and posted it (or the relevant stuff from it) i know you addressed ender a lot but he forgot to answer all of it or something if so :P
oh im tired it said respectively
also talk about the unvote
04-28-2022, 02:31
Cuthillius
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
monty what was your impression of where the wagons were when you unvoted? had you been planning to unvote when you voted initially?
Remember the failure of Mass Effect? D4 we Tdome, I'm ousted, you're NKed, Visor MLed LYLO. Check yourself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobby
not solely no
i think winston was unquestionably super towny (despite being tunneled on me :stare: ) and had some super good posts and read lists that, uh lemme find it i saw a few earlier today
Winston's power level is even higher than Zack's, he routinely gets killed early as town.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobby
holy shit reading through this winston really had it out for me :(
die
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
:smash:
Quote:
Originally Posted by nebjiamn
vote: dobby
:smash:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobby
i dont see anything in winstons iso that would make me think hes sorcerer, and wolves not going for sorc is ballsy unless they think the wolves were well hidden and hoped for town on town action
Why go after sorc? Sorc is more likely to get town killed than scum, and is less efficient than a plain vig. Moreover, waiting until D2 allows for rolefishing.
Quote:
i also dont understand why winston stopped pushing me because he hated everything about everything i wrote and suddenyl was on ladd eod :P
It's so strange that when I did this (D1 unvote killing scum) as town, which I surely always am, I was almost consensus cleared for it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by katze
im aware the read on you is related to the readlist, that doesn't make me struggle to parse it as real and if it's a meme then i think it's still a pretty awko taco meme and my meme energy reads are 100% this game (read: 1 for 1) therefore this one is also correct
and i just explained why i'm voting cape over monty but im not going to strongarm it because i don't TR monty i just think cape had a series of wolfy posts and ive struggled to find any reason to townread him at all this game whereas ive had reasons prior to townread monty even excluding the ladd vote
shrugze
Setting up D4.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hollowkatt
alright here's where I'm at, final edition:
monte has a lot of really good associatives, should be chopped just because
The only thing against me is the Newcomb flub, which while bad does not change the reality of prior interactions with known scum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by katze
anyway i'm gonna try to explain my mindset rn because i think the misunderstandings are coming from me being lazy more than anything and being misunderstood is a bit of a peeve of mine so i should stop not doing myself any favors:
i think this game is still easy; i don't really feel obligated to... try that hard to win it? like, i feel pretty good about it just being in monty or cape. if it's not there, i expect to get executed, and i might fight that a bit if it comes to it because i'm a stubborn bastard but i've already basically accepted it.
So the immediate point about this list is that from a scum-Katze POV:
D3: Mont
D4: Cape
D5: Cuth
D6: Dobby
is pretty much necessary. Although if neither katze nor none of those options are scum themselves then any scum would have to follow the same path, substituting katze for Cuth.
What I'm saying is that the POE is kind of rigid from almost any theory of the game.
I agree this is not a great look especially given the consistent pattern of distancing day 1 among the flipped scum. very soft touch.
04-28-2022, 02:38
Sleep
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuthillius
ah yes the lock i do it in literally every game except this one because i can't be arsed to delete the numbers from in front of people's names in the playerlist
legit i couldnt find a single town game u did it in in my sample lmao
04-28-2022, 02:48
Cuthillius
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleep
legit i couldnt find a single town game u did it in in my sample lmao
that's hilarious but also i just clicked three town games from before we played for eachofthese games:
i feel like this might be a sample size issue lmao
04-28-2022, 02:48
Sleep
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cape90
^If Cuth mafia, then all 5 names listed here are town so this worldbuilding doesn't look super wolfy fmpov
allow me to tell you about the hours of meta research i did on cuth's scumgame now that i've outed
04-28-2022, 02:49
Cuthillius
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
*i clicked 3 and 2/3 had it and i clicked around a bit more after
didn't actually play that many games on mu in general but
04-28-2022, 02:49
Montmorency
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobby
i dont think ive voted newcomb all game sir
"katze and dobby voted NC and Rask, respectively, "
y no1 red my poasts
Quote:
also benneh is never in f3, neither will cape :P
A very interesting opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuthillius
monty what was your impression of where the wagons were when you unvoted? had you been planning to unvote when you voted initially?
I think I posted about this in one of my two posts of minutes ago, but...
I thought I was voting to tie ladd 3-3-3. I saw right at the bell ladd was in the lead with Rask's vote and Sleep's switch back to NC.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleep
I agree this is not a great look especially given the consistent pattern of distancing day 1 among the flipped scum. very soft touch.
How were scum interacting w/ each other vs. w/ flipped townies vs. w/ me.
Think about it.
Quote:
What can I say, Zack and Sunbae had a great game. Cuth or katze are good candidates for final scum. But Cuth might be spewed town by Ender spending most of EOD whining that Cuth wouldn't sheep his case on NC even though Cuth TLed him, unless you think that's part of the same sort of theater as Ender-ladd. Anyone remember that? Just reread EOD1.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
So, if I vote myself out will people believe I have something on Newcomb and go there tomorrow instead of staying off them for ? reasons?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuthillius
for the love of all that is good in the world please just don't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by katze
if you're voted out today is your legacy "kill newcomb with fire" or "stop ignoring newcomb and talk about him more" because i feel like im the loudest anti-newcomb voice and if i died today i'd absolutely not lean the former
Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
I don't mind this if Newcomb is off the table.
I do not feel like their reads feel entirely legit. Especially the way they've treated me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
I right now feel the former.
Might be that I read their reaction to the case I posted where they "forgot" who posted it.
And idk I just viscerally want the flip and the red blood of a wolf on my hands to prove myself right now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
Also like, Csargo's weird flip flop on me to a townread actually feels more legit than Cuth's progression.
What I think happened now - my theory for EOD1 - is that 2 scum were AFK, Ender was present almost flailing with his vote parked on Newcomb throughout, and katze was in there without much thread presence finally dropping a vote onto Newcomb 1 minute out.
It could be Sleep or Dobby too playing a similar role with votes on NC and Rask respectively, but I doubt it, and that's up for others to sort since this game looks more like my Mass Effect a year ago without the super-deep mafia.
Vote: Katze
She has too been posting like SOD3 threw her for a loop.
My final answer is katze; I shan't afford another. ggwp
Unfortunately I can't go beyond myself without breaking the game.
Reposting.
04-28-2022, 02:50
Sleep
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuthillius
that's hilarious but also i just clicked three town games from before we played for eachofthese games:
i feel like this might be a sample size issue lmao
yeah it was 100% just bad sampling because i cba to dig thru all the turbos to find the long games
04-28-2022, 02:51
Cuthillius
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
so monty to be clear
you thought you were tying it both when you initially voted and when you unvoted then?
were you planning to unvote at all before it happened?
04-28-2022, 02:51
Cuthillius
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleep
yeah it was 100% just bad sampling because i cba to dig thru all the turbos to find the long games
rip
i'm still
i should so not have won that game
04-28-2022, 02:54
Montmorency
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuthillius
so monty to be clear
you thought you were tying it both when you initially voted and when you unvoted then?
were you planning to unvote at all before it happened?
If I was unvoting to get the tie, presumably I wasn't planning to unvote when I thought I was setting the tie. I just have a reticence toward making the wrong wagon pick in raw CFDs so ties are safer. Disconcerting that you and HK don't remember this from my meta, since it has been a subject of conversation before.
04-28-2022, 02:55
Sleep
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuthillius
you two are goofs and i love you for it tbh
i have to say this catchup has been unexpectedly hilarious and delightful
04-28-2022, 02:57
Sleep
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuthillius
rip
i'm still
i should so not have won that game
yeah eh i mean a sub in f3, what can you do? just super messed up the gamestate
i recovered like 2 days later because i got to replace into a game, draw a mafia slot, and hammer town!nacho
04-28-2022, 02:59
Cuthillius
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montmorency
If I was unvoting to get the tie, presumably I wasn't planning to unvote when I thought I was setting the tie. I just have a reticence toward making the wrong wagon pick in raw CFDs so ties are safer. Disconcerting that you and HK don't remember this from my meta, since it has been a subject of conversation before.
sleep voted ladd at least 20 seconds before you voted though and switched right before you posted
did you see his post before you voted or did you think you were the fourth vote lol
04-28-2022, 02:59
Cuthillius
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleep
yeah eh i mean a sub in f3, what can you do? just super messed up the gamestate
i recovered like 2 days later because i got to replace into a game, draw a mafia slot, and hammer town!nacho
oh brilliant i'm glad to hear
i was a wreck afterwards
04-28-2022, 03:02
Cuthillius
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
it's a cute tiger
04-28-2022, 03:07
hollowkatt
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobby
im not kind this is the first game i havent tilted in (yet) in... months or years
honestly same lol
04-28-2022, 03:18
hollowkatt
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montmorency
If I was unvoting to get the tie, presumably I wasn't planning to unvote when I thought I was setting the tie. I just have a reticence toward making the wrong wagon pick in raw CFDs so ties are safer. Disconcerting that you and HK don't remember this from my meta, since it has been a subject of conversation before.
I don't think we've played enough games for me to have an understanding of what you'd do from a meta perspective.
That being said, ties are resolved at Random, which seems less than good when you're trying to understand who wanted which wagons and how the run up to EOD(X) goes. I wouldn't play for purposeful random on any day unless there was something that personally benefited me to do so, so when you say you wanted to set the tie and you had cold feet about being on the wrong wagon I want to believe you, I just can't put myself into that kind of mindset.
I think I may believe you more if you'd cast another vote instead of just trying to unvote as at least you'd be on the record of wanting somebody dead whereas if your unvote had been successful probably we're still having this conversation, only instead of saying "unvote post chop is sus" it's "unvote and not taking a position when there are multiple options to choose from is sus"
04-28-2022, 03:23
Montmorency
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuthillius
sleep voted ladd at least 20 seconds before you voted though and switched right before you posted
did you see his post before you voted or did you think you were the fourth vote lol
Why specifically 20 seconds? I recall reacting to the flurry of voting immediately following this tally. I made my decision to tie-vote and went to upload the reaction image.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hollowkatt
I don't think we've played enough games for me to have an understanding of what you'd do from a meta perspective.
That being said, ties are resolved at Random, which seems less than good when you're trying to understand who wanted which wagons and how the run up to EOD(X) goes. I wouldn't play for purposeful random on any day unless there was something that personally benefited me to do so, so when you say you wanted to set the tie and you had cold feet about being on the wrong wagon I want to believe you, I just can't put myself into that kind of mindset.
I think I may believe you more if you'd cast another vote instead of just trying to unvote as at least you'd be on the record of wanting somebody dead whereas if your unvote had been successful probably we're still having this conversation, only instead of saying "unvote post chop is sus" it's "unvote and not taking a position when there are multiple options to choose from is sus"
The point being is that I don't necessarily want to provide the decisive vote onto anyone if I wind up wrong (remember this is information voting from my end; it's different when pursuing a hard case.)
If katze was scum, she was voting to put NC in the lead past Csargo, HK, Sleep, Rask, and ladd. (Neb voted simultaneously onto Rask, so in theory we could say the same about his vote.)
Sleep > ladd (3)
dobby > Rask (4)
Sleep > NC (3)
Sleep as scum would be reacting very cannily to the immediate VC here. Either way, he was probably following the VC to the dot.
Mont > ladd (3)
Rask > ladd (4)
Simultaneous.
Out of all these people katze has the worst associatives. Only one can be scum.
There is my theory. Take it today or take it tomorrow.
04-28-2022, 03:34
Sleep
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuthillius
it's a cute tiger
ty i was searching through the default avatars and it reminded me of a friends avatar
anyway for actual game related business:
potentially dumb read alert: i kind of feel like cape has almost been too wrong to be mafia, and...i don't really get what the mafia were doing if they ere, like, distancing from each other day 1 but HARD SHIELDING cape, because, like, no offense but he has the last forum mafia experience of anyone here? don't get me wrong, he's a sharp kid, no slouch at all, but like, do they realistically expect him to endgame in this playerlist? probably not, so like, are they really going to spend day 1 trying to powerwolf for him? kinda doubt it, feels in my gut like bog standard white knighting now (i am pretty sure i have scumread cape in every single non-turbo game i have played with him. i was right once! but honestly he was worse that game than he's been here and his WIM sank like a stone despite the fact that his team was winning)
04-28-2022, 03:46
Cuthillius
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montmorency
Why specifically 20 seconds? I recall reacting to the flurry of voting immediately following this tally. I made my decision to tie-vote and went to upload the reaction image.
ok that's
weird
but alright
20 seconds because there's the post cooldown and he voted and then voted someone else within that window before you posted
04-28-2022, 03:47
Cuthillius
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleep
ty i was searching through the default avatars and it reminded me of a friends avatar
anyway for actual game related business:
potentially dumb read alert: i kind of feel like cape has almost been too wrong to be mafia, and...i don't really get what the mafia were doing if they ere, like, distancing from each other day 1 but HARD SHIELDING cape, because, like, no offense but he has the last forum mafia experience of anyone here? don't get me wrong, he's a sharp kid, no slouch at all, but like, do they realistically expect him to endgame in this playerlist? probably not, so like, are they really going to spend day 1 trying to powerwolf for him? kinda doubt it, feels in my gut like bog standard white knighting now (i am pretty sure i have scumread cape in every single non-turbo game i have played with him. i was right once! but honestly he was worse that game than he's been here and his WIM sank like a stone despite the fact that his team was winning)
i imagine the game went down the chute once ladd actually died there
04-28-2022, 03:47
hollowkatt
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montmorency
The point being is that I don't necessarily want to provide the decisive vote onto anyone if I wind up wrong (remember this is information voting from my end; it's different when pursuing a hard case.)
It's not a strategy, just psychology.
Yeah, again I can't wrap my head around that. I'd rather be decisively wrong and own it than leave things up to chance.
All voting is "information voting" unless you've got a red check on someone so yeah.
I do believe you believe what you're saying though
04-28-2022, 05:52
nebjiamn
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
K I’ve sorted it out
were gonna yeet Monty today and he’ll flip v
im gonna die and you’re gonna lunch cuth to win the game
Read cuth and ender at eod. Read cuths position as a wagon during that discussion. Wolves thought he was going over. Ender found reasons to suspect cuth while sticking around trying to lunch newcomb and build that wagon as a counter. He then weakly clears cuth for a boring post. Props to Monty for deducing that post meant nothing
ladd goes from a 5th option that cuth wouldn’t kill to a 2nd vote on Ladd when it seems the wagons are going to tip back to cuth or cfd onto newc, rask, or some other lhf. Worst case cuth lands on Ladd in a 4 way rand.
ladd literally catches fire with votes from sleep and Monty with literally no time on the clock. Theres no time to react and no real way this could have been predicted. But why would cuth go against his word when other wagons he WOULD lunch and DOES wolf read more than Ladd ? Why does ender clear cuth over a NAI post? Cuth wagon disintegrates at that point and ender needs a way to decommit from voting there if newc doesn’t catch on.
I’ll bet my entire deck mafia card collection on this. Cuth is mafia
04-28-2022, 05:54
nebjiamn
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
No one else is mafia
except monty
and kat
and cape
and dobby
but no one else
04-28-2022, 07:21
Cuthillius
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by nebjiamn
K I’ve sorted it out
were gonna yeet Monty today and he’ll flip v
im gonna die and you’re gonna lunch cuth to win the game
Read cuth and ender at eod. Read cuths position as a wagon during that discussion. Wolves thought he was going over. Ender found reasons to suspect cuth while sticking around trying to lunch newcomb and build that wagon as a counter. He then weakly clears cuth for a boring post. Props to Monty for deducing that post meant nothing
ladd goes from a 5th option that cuth wouldn’t kill to a 2nd vote on Ladd when it seems the wagons are going to tip back to cuth or cfd onto newc, rask, or some other lhf. Worst case cuth lands on Ladd in a 4 way rand.
ladd literally catches fire with votes from sleep and Monty with literally no time on the clock. Theres no time to react and no real way this could have been predicted. But why would cuth go against his word when other wagons he WOULD lunch and DOES wolf read more than Ladd ? Why does ender clear cuth over a NAI post? Cuth wagon disintegrates at that point and ender needs a way to decommit from voting there if newc doesn’t catch on.
I’ll bet my entire deck mafia card collection on this. Cuth is mafia
counterpoint: i was never going over there
04-28-2022, 09:27
Raskolnikov
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cape90
I have no idea how you all are so confident on Rask, like at all. I think they look like town
But so does like
everyone that isn't Mont :laugh4:
i mean even Mont has some good posts
tbh you should be turboed in the unlikely event Monty doesn't flip wolf (because I go afk for 24h and you are setting me up for next day lol. u know even if you pretend to not seeing it, people read the thread and have witnessed the action. tinfoiling a slots for raisins won't do any good here. #forSunbae)
@hollowkatt: re Winston might have been a read list: remember this post from EOD1 where he said "Ladd/Newcomb/Montmorency were all good targets"? I do
04-28-2022, 09:28
Raskolnikov
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raskolnikov
tbh you should be turboed in the unlikely event Monty doesn't flip wolf (because I go afk for 24h and you are setting me up for next day lol. u know even if you pretend to not seeing it, people read the thread and have witnessed the action. tinfoiling a slots for raisins won't do any good here. #forSunbae)
@hollowkatt: re Winston might have been a read list: remember this post from EOD1 where he said "Ladd/Newcomb/Montmorency were all good targets"? I do
*re Winston might have been a read list kill
04-28-2022, 09:37
Raskolnikov
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by hollowkatt
my ideal f3 is me, you, and raskol b/c shitposting galore
Remember the failure of Mass Effect? D4 we Tdome, I'm ousted, you're NKed, Visor MLed LYLO. Check yourself.
Winston's power level is even higher than Zack's, he routinely gets killed early as town.
die
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
:smash:
:smash:
Why go after sorc? Sorc is more likely to get town killed than scum, and is less efficient than a plain vig. Moreover, waiting until D2 allows for rolefishing.
It's so strange that when I did this (D1 unvote killing scum) as town, which I surely always am, I was almost consensus cleared for it.
Setting up D4.
The only thing against me is the Newcomb flub, which while bad does not change the reality of prior interactions with known scum.
So the immediate point about this list is that from a scum-Katze POV:
D3: Mont
D4: Cape
D5: Cuth
D6: Dobby
is pretty much necessary. Although if neither katze nor none of those options are scum themselves then any scum would have to follow the same path, substituting katze for Cuth.
What I'm saying is that the POE is kind of rigid from almost any theory of the game.
Coolbean.gif
04-28-2022, 09:46
Raskolnikov
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
I mean, it feels like "hey that was a good plan, can't believe it didn't work here saddddddssssssss"
04-28-2022, 10:10
Raskolnikov
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
I hate this game tbh: because of Benneh's post, I am rereading EOD1 to check cuth's positionning, and I read Dobby's readlist gut clearing all flipped scums.
"monstrbro - town."
"EnderWiggin - I've had some big doubts on this slot because a lot of thought patterns have felt feigned (i translated the word from swedish sorry if its a dumb word that doesnt make sense) but the more i think about it i feel like it's probably just from a town mindset and if i go with gut this is just town yes."
"Ladd - I've been flipflopping on ladd, this post just had way more than id expect at that point, but maybe its just the ladd way of pumping out reads and then tweaking. His later posts just feel like they have the enthusiasm and "fire" that town ladd has, especially the more (for ladd) wordy ones, it's also a bit relaxed which is nice to see. Gut says town."
anyone has meta on wolf!Dobby? (don't say 1610 pls)
back to reading cuth's EOD :coffee:
04-28-2022, 10:13
Raskolnikov
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winston Hughes
i kinda still feel like dobby might be scum, but if so this is a work of genius
This feels bad because from the competing wagons, I am prolly the one with the lower perceived skills AND have a locked vote on my face because monstr isn't coming back.
The reply to Visor also feels like it's precisaly the VC which triggered the vote switch from Monty. the VC with a clear incoming wolf lunch
I will check Monty's reads on me prior to this point once I am done with cuth's EOD.
04-28-2022, 10:34
Raskolnikov
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
(no post from cuth yet in my reread)
(so it feels good to lock Monty in the meantime :creep:)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montmorency
Voting Newcomb is a dumb idea katze. Vote Ender instead.
this is prolly Monty's next post after having unvoted Ender to tie me up with him.
LOL
04-28-2022, 10:37
Raskolnikov
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montmorency
I have mixed feelings about most of you.
Is this a bit?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winston Hughes
no...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montmorency
You keep starting bare wagons.
Also, I'm reticent to even voice this, but I can't help but notice how the host declined to edit his tally even when you posted a new vote just seconds before.
Almost as if he KNEW you were about to change your vote.
:magnify:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winston Hughes
yeah
but they're honest
The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 3 characters
04-28-2022, 10:51
Raskolnikov
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuthillius
oh and more to the point if this is tryhard wolf bladescape i think that maintaining this level of play would be challenging in a way distinct from average in this playerlist
ie i'm happy with what i'm seeing today and i'm not super worried about him going super deep if w and i'm very happy with holding him to the precedent he set d1 in future phases
This post comes after what could be read as TMI reads on Newcomb and Cape.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuthillius
i'm very comfortable with calling cape strong v at this point and just making sure to look back in a day or two
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuthillius
this feels like it comes from v!newc some amount more often than not
But rn I am not seeing how Cuth goes from soft defending goon!Ender to bus sorcerer!Ladd.
...
Nah actually I see how he could have (w!Cuth sees that 1. Monstr is about to get banned and is LHF that isn't endgaming anyway 2. sees that Ender is not ending game too re the amount of heat he got D1 3. panicks at EOD when he sees the CFD on Ladd and thinks bussing hard here is the only path to victory). A possibility to me rn, nothing definitive though.
Moving on. :anothercoffee:
04-28-2022, 11:22
Raskolnikov
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
COntext
Quote:
Originally Posted by nebjiamn
Vote: Cuthillius
Quote:
Originally Posted by nebjiamn
Cuth can you tell me about your rask read or link me to where you discuss it?
Compare this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuthillius
uh sure i can flesh it out once i catch up
off the top of my head his posting last night was pretty yawn and then he was pushing something i didn't like when i voted him
to this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuthillius
my issue is that
and this may be a factor of the playerlist composition
everyone feels super homogeneous in a way that's distinct from like thinking everyone's super towny or whatever
just there aren't. lines
there aren't divides which aren't necessarily that helpful but once you stack enough of them on top of each other people start popping out
there's like some of it in the org-specific group kiinda but even then it's. very non-discrete in a way that doesn't make me uncomfortable because i don't think we're like way off track necessarily but it's puzzling
last post feels like a preemptive back up reasonning to vote me out (with unfakable in-depht thinking lmao) because he may have felt something ugly could happen to him. dunno
moving on (rn I am still at Monty > above them all fwiw. I am just trying to see if "Cuth is a wolf" is an idea that matches what happened at EOD1, because I had the thought too N1 and Benneh's post was convincing. might as well test it because I don't want us to railroad Monty being lazy)
04-28-2022, 11:25
Raskolnikov
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
I think katze calling that post out is a good look for them btw. (independantly of Cuth's alignment, because the switch between the posts I just quoted from Cuth in terms of wording, thinking, etc... is noticeable)
04-28-2022, 11:31
Raskolnikov
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by katze
no lol
here is another good look for our favorite cat (I am pretty sure they'd me as LHF as wolf. definatly if tied to zackito. so I'd expect w!katze to go with a "why? word salad" rather than "no lol")
04-28-2022, 11:33
Raskolnikov
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
Talk to me about why? I don't feel he's done anything that sticks out to me as super scummy.
CASE IN POINT lmao.
I am locking katze villa. took me a while but I am landing here.
04-28-2022, 11:43
Raskolnikov
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
I secretly hope Cuth is town tbh (I parked on Ender before going Cuth > ladd D1), because otherwise my LHF status will take a serious hit and I will have to shorten my posts and slack even harder as town. which is out of my range tbh. (u can switch Cuth for Monty, it works too)
apologies for this post btw. (I just had an ego pooping watching at the D1 VCs)
04-28-2022, 11:46
Raskolnikov
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
If you're so convinced I'm town, why do you seem so unimpressed by my case?
Caveat that I've skimmed very vaguely so if I missed something I apologise, but it feels like you've slapped this great big townread on me but have also completely ignored my actual push and has put a weak af townread on Newcomb
This feels indeed partnery (Ender self applpying MASSIVE TOWNREAD to his slot, and points out a bad move from wolfbuddy!Cuth to get him to work more and look better). Maybessssss
04-28-2022, 11:58
nebjiamn
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
vote: monty
just listen to zack, newc, and sunbae and not me
04-28-2022, 12:03
Raskolnikov
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raskolnikov
OK Cuth you are full of crap lmao. The only mention about my slot in your ISO is the initial "lock villa"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuthillius
what 180?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuthillius
your point being?
i didn't say "i wrote a bunch of words about rask in my iso"
i said "i voted rask because his entrance was lackluster and he was pushing something i didn't like right before i voted him and i'll give it a closer look once i've caught up"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raskolnikov
You are saying it now actually. What's the thing I was pushing you didn't like?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuthillius
benneh
ender
katze
sunbae
monstr
cape
hk but this read is from early d1
newc
roro
sleep
zack
ladd
csargo
monty
winston
rask
and if you're saying to yourself "gee four orgers on the bottom of that list" guess what i've been saying to myself for the last like 24 hours too
alphabetical within tiers as always
ok tell me t!Cuth is gueninely solving here (compare the vote reason to my position in the read list, add the fact that before I started this convo with my subtile "you are full of crap", there was one mention of me in Cuth's ISO locking me villa for my opening shit post talking about shitposting - ur not up to my level @Dobby, surrender - )
---
tbh on reread I am liking this more and more. I can totally see how w!Cuth ends up bussing the AFK ladd. (because that's his only path to victory with Monstr/Ender positionning, his own positionning that was starting to be called out by me, sleep, WH and others, and the CFD on missing Ladd)
04-28-2022, 12:03
nebjiamn
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
Montmorency lunched
nebjiamn NK'd
kill katze
rask NK'd
kill cuth
sleep NK'd
F3:
hollowkatt , Dobby, Cape
04-28-2022, 12:04
nebjiamn
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
dead villagers don't know shit
vote: cuth
04-28-2022, 12:06
nebjiamn
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
worst case scenario:
we lunch v!cuth who should basically be lock clear, open up the game for a boxed in wolf that should have 0 chance because they don't have enough miskills unless we kill cuth today, and we lose the game tragically in f3
that's not ... so bad?
04-28-2022, 12:47
Raskolnikov
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by nebjiamn
vote: monty
just listen to zack, newc, and sunbae and not me
"I refuse not to conf-bias myself"
04-28-2022, 12:49
Raskolnikov
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
So, if I vote myself out will people believe I have something on Newcomb and go there tomorrow instead of staying off them for ? reasons?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuthillius
for the love of all that is good in the world please just don't.
So, if I vote myself out will people believe I have something on Newcomb and go there tomorrow instead of staying off them for ? reasons?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuthillius
and also no it wouldn't tip the scale there in the slightest i already think you're probably town but that doesn't mean much about the validity of your read
sorry if sounds harsh
the most useful thing it would do is make me consider how newc's treated you this phase but off the top of my head i don't have big issues with that so
Compare Cuth's post in reply to Ender, to his reason to lock me scum. ("ur villa, but I don't think ur reads are of any value, Ender" vs "Rask, you are scum because I disagree with your push (on Ender))
04-28-2022, 13:01
Raskolnikov
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuthillius
what is the point of this post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raskolnikov
Hearing your case actually, or even the reason you have to vote me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuthillius
why would i even have to have a reason to vote you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuthillius
oh i forgot about this post
i have a hard time reading monstr because his playstyle as a wolf is self-aware in a way distinct from a lot of people, and it's not just like being able to post like a villager would but genuinely intuitively generating stuff that he would think as a villager by maintaining a sort of self-aware distance while wolfing
meaning his wolf posts have a villagery flavor to them that is stronger than a lot of peoples' and it's similar enough to mine that i have a hard time ever trusting how i read it
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raskolnikov
vote: cuthillius
multiquote drama. Continuing in an incoming post.
04-28-2022, 13:10
Raskolnikov
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raskolnikov
@cuthilius: what did you mean in that post? you can't read monstr because?
i have a hard time reading monstr because his playstyle as a wolf is self-aware in a way distinct from a lot of people, and it's not just like being able to post like a villager would but genuinely intuitively generating stuff that he would think as a villager by maintaining a sort of self-aware distance while wolfing
meaning his wolf posts have a villagery flavor to them that is stronger than a lot of peoples' and it's similar enough to mine that i have a hard time ever trusting how i read it
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raskolnikov
ok. I still don't get the last sentence (like if you can isolate a pattern of posting which is AI for him, and it's a behaviour which is simular to yours, which arguably you can understand, why don't you trust that particular read?).
---
vote: Cuthillius
---
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuthillius
looking back i'm pretty sure i voted you primarily for
you'll never guess
your catchup being lackluster but mostly specifically this post
ender i've talked about more than enough
sunbae i think is pretty villagery but there's been enough waffling that it's conceivably something wolves feel absolutely fine going for
and monty is shrug it's fine but i don't super vibe with any of the people who feel more strongly about it than mild shrug and doesn't look good
and specifically i think these reads are presented from most to least objectionable
and in the absence of thinking any individuals are super wolfy i'm inclined to vote the people who are not actively villagery and who are also trying to kill people that a) i think are villagers and b) feel like villagers wolves would try to kill here
my "most objectionable read" was...
... wait for it...
...Ender, a wolf.
04-28-2022, 13:13
Raskolnikov
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
I need to go, but will come back to this and check the context of Cuth's vote on Ladd.
looking back i'm pretty sure i voted you primarily for
you'll never guess
your catchup being lackluster but mostly specifically this post
ender i've talked about more than enough
sunbae i think is pretty villagery but there's been enough waffling that it's conceivably something wolves feel absolutely fine going for
and monty is shrug it's fine but i don't super vibe with any of the people who feel more strongly about it than mild shrug and doesn't look good
and specifically i think these reads are presented from most to least objectionable
and in the absence of thinking any individuals are super wolfy i'm inclined to vote the people who are not actively villagery and who are also trying to kill people that a) i think are villagers and b) feel like villagers wolves would try to kill here
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raskolnikov
ok so you are not poundering my alignment here. cool stuff. (because that's basically what you are doing here, you don't try to figure it out. why is me disagreeing with you about 3 specific slots makes me a wolf?)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuthillius
it's not, i don't really have that much of a read on you
i'm voting you because i have an idea of who villagers are in this game and no real leads in any way on who the wolves are and so i'm voting people who aren't villagery and who are trying to kill villagers
that doesn't mean that your posts are wolfy it just means they're not villagery and you're trying to kill people i think are villagers and also in what could be an opportunistic way
OK, lets be real. These can come from a villager. Still, I can't shake out of my head some bits of it are absolutely disgustingly wolfy. Like the bold sentence. It perfectly matches what the challenge wolves face D1.
@Montmorency: I strongly suggest you hope on pal. katze is prolly villa and we really need a thunderdome toDay (we really need to yeet a wolf and end this game, but in the case we fail, we need that info)
04-28-2022, 14:46
Raskolnikov
Re: Sorceror 17er Game Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuthillius
it's kinda sad that both katze and benneh are voting me
that gets me down a bit
in terms of how i'm playing this game
i would be tempted to vote ladd but i think winston voting ladd just from the game perspective more broadly is vaguely wack and it makes me feel less great about it
rask is fine
otherwise csargo monty really just feel like uninteresting
i think if i had another hour i might feel good about going hk but right now i have a hard time i need to spend more time and there isn't more time
you were like hm maybe we can go newc here? or something
and i was like
what
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuthillius
vote: ladd
---
So, as I said earlier, I totally get how w!Cuth ends up bussing in this gamestate (Ender widely sussed, Monstr banned, Ladd afk). It's a win strat when Ladd flips.
What is giving me pause is why resist the Newcomb pushes? It's very possible to get away with his ML D1 I guess? And it'd be arguably good for the wolf pack.
---
"why is ladd pushed over Monty/Csargo though? (compared to his last posted readlist)": I reread Benneh's post (Benneh's post) and I think he might be right.
Cuth's switch on me and gearing up on Ladd is just after this VC, which suggest Cuth is about to eat it.
