The military have become policemen. But let's not derail the topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by ajaxfetish
~Jirisys ()
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The military have become policemen. But let's not derail the topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by ajaxfetish
~Jirisys ()
Washington lied their tongues out. Anyone surprised?
First of all, it seems like OBM did not hide behind a wife. Just propaganda to make him look cowardly.
Secondly, President Obama did not see when OBM got captured/killed because of a technical error (HP machines remember?).
As a side note, eye witness reports say OBM got captured and then assassinated, the source might of course lie. On the other hand, that source might lie, where as pentagon and washington have their pants on fire already.
Something is rotten here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shibumi
Source is his daughter. If they didn't want him alive bomb -> roof
Do you have links to go along with your unbiased claims?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shibumi
Or do I have to continue to suffer through your posts?
Something is rotten here....your continual denial that this is the way the world works. If I am going to have to sit here and endure 10 pages of forigeners running through every little gotcha moment they can dig up I'll be beside myself
Your telling me the story of a covert raid which resulted in the killing of the most wanted man in the world has confliciting stories just days after it happend?
Why people continue to idulge these kind of childlike delusions on this board is beyond me. Not soley picking on you but the Scandanavian members as a whole seem to be the most out of touch in everything ranging from realpolitik to social interaction. Trying to pull the rope tighter, stroking and reading the latest snippit from the AP that reveal the tiniest inconsistoncey in Americas "official" story may be sporting where you come from
But here you just look misinformed
I will take my ban now
See everyone after exams
Yes, bin Laden thankfully.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shibumi
And therein lies the real story for those of us who champion human rights. President Obama could have bombed the entire complex flat, thus killing many civilians and probably half the Abbottabad suburbs. No risk to US forces, no confused after action stories, just as much acclaim.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
The fate of Jimmy Carter looms large to any Democrat president. Those rusting hulks in Iran's desert must have weighed heavily in Obama's mind. Yet he took the right decision and saved a lot of lives. As Xiahou rightly notes, the US is at war with al-Qa'eda so the killing is perfectly justified as an act of self-defence. Even as an extra-judicial execution it is justifiable - the world is sometimes thus. Note that bin Laden also considered himself at war - and almost certainly welcomed death to incarceration at the hands of the "infidel". All the combatants got what they wanted, and because of an extraordinarily brave decision by the president, no further innocents had to die because of bin Laden's evil.
Well done sir, very well done.
I am not surprised. I did not believe the "wife as human shield" story; it did not sound remotely plausible. The wife trying to protect him and getting shot in the leg makes more sense. I'm also dubious about what exactly "resisting capture" means, given that he did not have a gun. The reason why I was not surprised is that we have seen several times with initial reports of missions or high profile combat episodes that the story changes later on (e.g. the Jessica Lynch episode; the sportsman who died in service in Afghanistan).Quote:
Originally Posted by Shibumi
Whether they lied, I don't know. One thing that makes me give Washington the benefit of the doubt is that they change the story quite quickly and do seem remarkably open about such matters compared to almost any other government I can think off. If they were going to lie, you'd think they would brazen it out for longer. Because lying and being caught out within a few days just damages your reputation. On the other hand, the initial stories always seem more favorable from a PR purpose. "OBL kills his wife" is great black propaganda. And no doubt there's a segment of the population who catches the initial headlines, then never sees the corrections or cares. Many people are still confused about the lack of any connection between Saddam Hussein and 9/11. But on balance, I'm inclined to think it's a case of confusion of warfare and PR people spinning initial reports in the most favorable way they can. I'd rather the PR people were reined in and more circumspect, but in today's climate with all the bizzare birther stuff gaining traction, I can see why they fight fire with fire.
And what do the Genevé conventions say about a man such as bin Laden?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shibumi
LOL, Anytime someone throws out the Geneva conventions I know two thingsQuote:
Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger
They know nothing about the topic at hand
They have an agenda so the topic at hand is nothing more than a springboard
I'll have gray hair and be thriced divorce before someone on her proves this killing was illegal using Geneva
heh quite the rant back there Strike, don't ever go to Scandinavia trust me, it would be bad for your heart.
Fragony, Banquo's Ghost, if he bombed it would have been hard to confirm the kill. Also, bombing civilians in "neutral" territory was probably advised against. Do I have to explain why or can you figure it out?
econ21, I was not very surprised either, the whole hiding behind a woman thing just seemed too good to be true. Small matter, maybe, but I just hate propaganda. Like with Obama not watching the assault. Does it matter? Not really, it is just worth pointing out he did not because they started the whole propaganda-look-at-our-commander-in-chief-yee-haa-and-here-is-the-cool-picture-to-show-thing. Not vital at all, just showing the theatrical side of US politics. That is the picture that will be remembered, you know. Just like when I think of the Iraq war I see this picture of Saddam's statue falling with a cheering crowd around - even though I now know that was completely staged and the cheering crowd was paid to be there and cheer.
Strike for the south, I will adress you when/if you learn proper manners. Or when/if you write something interesting. Whatever happens first.
PJ, My talk about Geneva was directed to the WW2 comment from before, and I made a whole other point than what you seem to have got. I do not believe I claimed OBM should be handled by the Geneva convention as you seem to think.
Of course they can identify him after a bombing, much less work than building a replica of the mansion in fact. Meat -> lab
You see, that's why they should have tried to capture him alive and drag him to a court, that way everybody would officially know where he was, what the evidence against him was, why he was captured and how the matter was handled.Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
What they did was do a covert operation, shoot him several times, then buried him deep below the sea, waited for a week and only then came out saying he'd been killed, that he wasn't armed etc. without presenting any objective evidence so far.
And you wonder why there are different stories and conspiracy theories? :laugh4:
And about this being a war, I wasn't aware that Pakistan was a war zone/at war with the US, or that OBL was the crucial, single decision-maker of global terrorism.
The point being that the way it sounds this was a pure revenge for 9/11 matter for most Americans rather than a prevention of further terror attacks.
I'm not going to put blame on the seal who shot him because I wasn't there, I take issue with people saying that it was right even if it was technically murder for revenge and nothing else.
If someone directly affected by 9/11 murdered him for revenge that's one thing, but state-sanctioned murder for revenge just shouldn't happen.
There is a direct (speculated) link between that event and this one, being that the team that was formed in response to the Iran stuff up is the one that went in. I'm not so sure if it was whom they nickname SEAL team 6, makes for an interesting piece of speculation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost
As for bombing the place and finding the meat:
a) Pakistan would have to let you back in.
b) A piece of meat could be just a foot, and now you have a one footed kidney dialysis patient (two footed ones aren't very mobile to start with).
That was something I had against bombing Tora Bora, we were left with a probable, not certain death. Still prefer the idea of a day in court and then a short drop.
Will this make an iota of difference to the Al Qaeda franchise? Nope, KFC is still doing fine after the colonel kicked the bucket. Once an idea is out there, it can't be unthought.
I think there's a big issue of whether terrorists should be assassinated by governments. Spielberg's film Munich tackled that superbly, although even after repeated viewing I still don't know what I think about the issue (or what Spielberg does!). It's a tough one. At one level, in a war, shooting an enemy general is probably always justified unless he has his hands up and offers to surrender. At another level, we have incredibly strict legal rules about how states should deal with suspected criminals (including presumption of innocence etc.). In this particular case, I think killing OBL is far closer to the "enemy general" paradigm than the "suspected criminal" one but the gulf between the two is massive and appears something of a grey area to me at least.
On the practical issue of what actually happened here, I think we still don't know enough. I read something this morning about an AK and a pistol being at OBL's bedside and him going for it. If that was true, then even on the "suspected criminal" paradigm, shooting him dead was absolutely fine.
Not to burst your bubble of the all knowing all powerful evil CIA/USA military establishment but is it not possible all the stories we heard quoted about human shields and the like in the news were ye know made up by the tv and papers.Quote:
Originally Posted by econ21
No, as I understand it, the story about the wife as human shield came from a White House briefing on Monday, retracted on Tuesday.Quote:
Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy
Having just typed that, the latest I read is that the rules of engagement were not to let him surrender unless he was naked.Quote:
Originally Posted by econ21
I don't know who you think I am (have I ever said the USA was evil?), but one thing I love about the US is how open with information it seems to be. That's why I usually tend to incline more to the cock-up than conspiracy theories when it comes to these changing stories.Quote:
Originally Posted by gaeliccowboy
The confirmation of the kill might have been slightly more difficult, but had the decision to bomb been taken, the necessity would have been to completely total the area. There will be conspiracy theorists and deniers whatever had been done. As with other attacks, DNA would have been taken at the scene of the bombing later on. A bombing mission was the safest, most reliable option (from the US point of view) but the president chose a course that minimised the loss of even more innocents.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shibumi
Point two: the United States continues to bomb areas in Pakistan with drones and planes and has done for a long time. To my mind, the continuing slaughter of innocent Pakistanis in the North West, for entirely dubious reasons, is of far more concern than the execution of an evil man. Thus the worries the US may have had over bombing the compound were certainly not because of upsetting a "neutral" Pakistan.
There, I figured it out. Do I get a balloon?
My thought as well. I mean, why would the White House even try to correct this stuff at quite a cost to themselves? It's not like there are any witnessesQuote:
Originally Posted by econ21
leftthat are going to be believed.
They do it because America is still a great country that tries its best to be open. Sure, it fails a lot and gets flack for it, but that's only because we get to know.
Anyway, I liked the wife-shield story. For a man who sent young nutters to fly into buildings to murder thousands of innocent people going about their day's work, hiding behind his wife in a firefight was actually quite a step up cowardice-wise.
Sorry that was my fault the start of your earlier piece has the feel of someone who wants to believe the worst of the USA, however I reread it and saw that stupidly I missed the change in the second half of the post. I also tend to go with the same in regard to these incidents I don't believe that anyone can keep these kinds of things secret for long so I usually disregard any talk of conspiracies etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by econ21
Apparently twas because he might have a suicide vest on.Quote:
Originally Posted by econ21
All the media fluff is pointless.
OBL is dead. He was executed by the United States.
Executed is not a loaded term in this context. If he had been returned to the U.S. and stood trial for the death of thousands of people, the end result would be the same.
Who knows, maybe PlanA was to get him out alive; perhaps the sacrifice of one helicopter and PlanB simply made changes "necessary".
In any case, job well done SEALS.
In English, to "lie" means intentional deceit. And if this administration were lying, as others have pointed out, they would have stuck to their story until it was no longer tenable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shibumi
"Corrections," on the other hand, usually come quickly as new info is gained.
Which seems more likely?
You appear to be very ready to accept any negative theory about America without a great deal of critical examination. Blind spot, that. Best to check your mirrors and look out the rear window before backing up.
I'm glad I can provide you with amusement. You might want to look into this guy named Brian Ross, who is a fairly serious journalist. Note: by using the term "serious journalist," I mean that he has a factual, checkable track record for uncovering true things before other people, with little regard to who the facts help or hurt. The organization with the biggest beef against Ross? Not the Republican party. Toyota.Quote:
Originally Posted by ELITEOFKINGWARMAN88
Crazy thread, some people really go out of their way to hate America...
All I will say is that I do not celebrate the death of OBL as a person. Because I never really see things in personal terms. He had his reasons for why he saw the world the way he did, just like we do. On the whole, he was a spoiled brat. Raised in privilege from day one, right to the end with his nine wives and massive complex (so much for hiding in the caves).
Something the more far-out western liberals tend to forget is that AQ are not the poor oppressed underdogs. They are often well (and western) educated, pretty wealthy... they represent the aspirations of the disaffected Arab middle-class. They cannot be compared to the likes of insurgents eg the Taliban, which really are just goatherders and what not. And lets not forget that the vast majority of AQ's victims were your typical oppressed Muslim peasant. For all the talk of Pakistan looking bad in this, we should remembers they have suffered far more at the hands of AQ than the west has.
So, what I do celebrate the death of OBL as the figurehead of Al-Qaeda. He may not have had a very active role in the organisation of late, but this is a huge symbolic victory over them, and sort of puts the icing on the cake after the Arab Spring, which itself did a lot to discredit AQ.
Also think I should add that IMO Obama did this whole thing perfectly. It was a good call not to bomb and kill civilians. And a good call with how he dealt with the body. Because whatever happened there would be conspiracy theories.
Should Osama have had a trial? Ideally, maybe so. But the reality is we were at war with him and his organisation. The Geneva Conventions don't take account for the nature of modern warfare, it isn't one country v another, nation states aren't billiard balls any more. If might not be official but we are at war with AQ as an organisation. So it is perfectly legitimate to hunt OBL down and shoot it out.
I would say despite the fact it is plain as mud Osama did it, the facts to hand might have been a bit muddy to actually convict him of anything to do with Sep 11. I could imagine the trial dragging on for years with OBL spouting all sorts of rubbish everyday to the papers burnishing his credentials as the saviour of Islam, tis better he was topped however distasteful that may feel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfelwr
You see no potential discrapancy in these two statements? You should work at Guantanamo bay. The interrogators were told to see constant protestations of innocence as proof that they were terrorist masterminds schooled in anti-interrogation by AQ.... oh **** - it turns out some of them really were just shepherds :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy
No I see no discrepency at all cos he said himself he did Sep 11th in a video, but that does not prove he did it now does it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Idaho
I agree with the fact that taking OBL back to America for trial wouldn't have been wise.
I'm not versed with America's legal system, or whether it is as dysfunctional in certain situations as our own, but trying to prove a known terrorist is guilty in a court of law with full proceedings is a waste of time and resource.
As an example I'll cite the lone survivor of the group who attacked Bombay in 2008. Nearly three years later, that man is still alive behind bars, while his trial dragged on. In the meantime he's been getting three full meals a day inside his cell (which is more than what many millions in this country can manage). The cell itself was made specially, lest some of the other prisoners try and harm him, far as I can remember I actually read an article where it was claimed that an overpass was being made so that no road passed anywhere close to the prison compound where he was held. Now after his conviction from the High court, he has a chance to appeal to the Supreme court, where his case is likely to go on for several years again. And once irrevocably convicted, it will still take a few years for the sentence to actually be carried out.
So the point I'm basically trying to make is, that when you know a person is utterly guilty, no sort of logic can justify them being put on any sort of trial at all. Shot on sight and dumped into the sea is being kind to a man who was behind the death of thousands of innocent civilians.
A bit off topic, but has the org even considered a "like" function like they have on facebook and other message boards?Quote:
Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost
I don't care about the photos of OBL's corpse, and I suspect the admin is correct in not releasing them now. On the other hand I demand -- DEMAND! -- to see pictures of the explosive-sniffing doggie involved in the operation. I mean, seriously, an elite commando dog in an armored jacket with videocameras and an oxygen mask? This I have to see. I have a right, a god-given right to see this dog.
Cool a real live Commando Doggie I smell a disney movie in the off
Osama's chums who were in the compound have far, far more to gain from muddying the waters by lying to the notoriously unreliable Pakistani newspapers than the Obama administration has to gain from providing a slightly misleading account of his death.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shibumi
It's sad how critical journalism is considered "bias" by ignorant people. True bias lies in doing what does not deserve to be written, and writing what does not deserve to be read.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
On a side note, it is positively heartwarming to see the same men who fill the streets demanding the death of anyone who dares to criticise law against blasphemy reduced to a solemn silence by the Bin Laden's death. We can all have good reason to be cheered by that, even if we consider finding joy in Bin Laden's death abhorrent.
Bin Laden's death was the result of a "targeted killing." The validity of this concept is, itself, debated.
Bin Laden would not have been labeled "hors de combat" and hence a "protected person" under the tenets of the 4th geneva convention as there was no means by which to determine that he was unarmed.
I don't know that it's ignorance, rather an attempt to divide the world cleanly into "us" and "them." In other words, everyone is either with my cause or against me. Seems like a very depressing perspective, and doomed to error, not to mention alienating for everyone who doesn't agree with all of your views. A very smart American conservative noted that "somebody who agrees with you 80% of the time is an 80% friend not a 20% enemy." Modern rightwingers would do well to think on this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Subotan
In more important news, details are emerging about the counterterrorism dog hero, but still no photos. Pshaw!
Little is known about what may be the nation’s most courageous dog. Even its breed is the subject of great interest, although it was most likely a German shepherd or a Belgian Malinois, military sources say. [...]
The training of dogs in Navy Seal teams and other Special Operations units is shrouded in secrecy. Maj. Wes Ticer, a spokesman for United States Special Operations Command, said the dogs’ primary functions “are finding explosives and conducting searches and patrols.”
“Dogs are relied upon,” he continued, “to provide early warning for potential hazards, many times, saving the lives of the Special Operations Forces with whom they operate.”
Last year, the Seals bought four waterproof tactical vests for their dogs that featured infrared and night-vision cameras so that handlers — holding a three-inch monitor from as far as 1,000 yards away — could immediately see what the dogs were seeing. The vests, which come in coyote tan and camouflage, let handlers communicate with the dogs with a speaker, and the four together cost more than $86,000. Navy Seal teams have trained to parachute from great heights and deploy out of helicopters with dogs.
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...mmando-dog.jpg
OBL hid behind a woman?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
Somewhere in the chain someone lied. Same with the photo. Interesting is to get to know where in the chain, or rather more importantly, why.
I am not saying that President Obama sat in a throne dictating "LIE ABOUT THIS YOU GRUNTS", but somewhere in the propaganda machine these lies came to be. Do you not find where and why to be interesting?
I think some here misunderstand my position. I am honestly glad OBL was assassinated, he was not a positive influence in this world. However, I will not celebrate someones death, just as I said initially. I see him as a rabid fox, needs to be killed, but it is nothing I will celebrate. I am more interested in curing the disease, than celebrating a dead rabid fox.
I also have a hard time accepting the propaganda machine, I will call bull when I see bull. I also want to know where in the chain the bull got started, and hang these people out.
Does this make me "oh so anti american"?
I think not. I see many a great thing in and with America. I believe in the American Dream. I just wish Americans would believe more in it, and uphold it. America can be better than this, should be better than this, and I hope will be better than this. I hope that one day the USA could get the next OBL because he gets sold out at once because people at large believe more in the American dream than some ****** up demagogue - instead of America having to send covert ops teams on assassination missions.
You can call me a weed smoking university hippie (was several years ago), but I believe in a better world, and I believe America is the leader of the powers that can make this happen.
So make it happen.
Skeptics. We do not believe what the govt say, we don't make up explanations either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost
Just, watch and call out the idiocy.
~Jirisys ()
Much of what happened in the raid will not become common knowledge for decades, if ever. It is not in the interests of those tasked with such work to have their "sources and methods" scrutinized. This can only make such efforts more difficult in the future. As it was, this one took nearly ten years.
I'm not so sure about that. This admin had a choice: Get word out immediately or try to sit on a story that was already leaking. They chose to go public with most everything they knew, probably while the team was still being debriefed. OBL was armed and then he wasn't? Why the discrepancy? Well, now it looks as though OBL had armaments in the room and may have been going for them. Hence the confusion. OBL hid behind a woman and then he didn't? Looks now as though one of his nine wives was in the room and may have gotten in the way of a shot, deliberately or not. Hence confusion. The admin could have tried to sit on the details, but they chose to go public first and correct later.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shibumi
Could this be some sort of mishandled psyop? I suppose, but I don't think it would play out the way it's going. A simple narrative would have been advanced and maintained for as long as possible. This smells more like early reporting of a breaking story, plus confusion and fog of war. Should the admin have waited on some of the details? Maybe. Maybe not.
I was going to try to mix things up by claiming you were a telepathic dolphin, but okay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shibumi
Exactly. Some people here do not seem to have an understanding of the nature of after action reports. Combat operations are fast-paced, chaotic, and terrifying affairs, and there is often not much time to stop and analyze what just happened. In this case, the SEALs had only 40 minutes from the start of the operation to lift off, which included the initial combat sweep, the detention of the dozens of women and children within the compound, and the subsequent hardware sweep - oh and dealing with a malfunctioning chopper. They were pretty busy, to say the least.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
Comparatively, the initial reports were actually far more accurate than one would expect. The big discrepancies:
Was he armed? - Well initial reports were yes, then no, and now it appears he was standing within arms reach of an AK47 and a Makarov.
Was the wife used as a human shield? - Initial reports said yes, then no, that she lunged towards the SEALs, and now the newest details claim he shoved the woman towards the SEALs - so yes again.
Was there a firefight? - Again, yes, then no, and now it appears that at least one of the couriers did fire at the SEALs.
Those are all, in fact, incredibly minor details to someone experienced in reading military AARs. I've recently been reading a collection of American military AARs from Normandy, and it is very common to read of engagements with dozens of Tiger tanks that I know never existed. :beam:
Events, units, equipment, and a hundred other little things in AARs diverge from the accepted historical record, from enemy accounts, and even from other AARs within the same unit on every side in every war. That doesn't mean the authors are all lying, it is just the nature of AARs - which are essentially attempts to translate incredibly chaotic events that just occurred into a sanitized, fact based summaries.
Lemur is right, Shibumi, you do seem latch on to any evil you can find in America and/or its actions, even if it doesn't exist. The administration didn't need to change its initial story at all, as none of us would have been the wiser. It is to their credit that they have come out to correct the record several times.
Breaking commando dog news: Some of the SEAL dogs have titanium fangs. ZOMG CYBORG DEATH DOG ALLOY JAWS!
...
We are better, and we are better exactly due to the reason you state.Quote:
Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name
However executing someone who we know deserves it, without a trial, does not make us fall to their level.
Anyway what logic do we follow by putting a man on trial when we know he has committed a crime without a shadow of doubt? I'm not talking about some criminal who might've murdered people...What OBL did was on a far larger scale.
But we didn't use an indescriminate attack like say flying a 747 into a tall buildingQuote:
Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name
We put boots on the ground and things could've gone very badly
Now of course America is not always right but nor is it always wrong. Of course being the hegemon does mean we have some of the trappings that go against an idealized version of what America should be and their are numerous examples of America being a bully. However it seems some here wish to hold us to some redicolous standard which no nation can ever hope to aspire to. Sometimes principles have to be comprimised, no one likes and it should not become a habit but that is simply the nature of things.
Bear in mind that lying is not the only potential source of false information.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shibumi
Ajax
Some people do not seem to have an understanding of the nature of an after action report? You do?Quote:
Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger
Then you go on to explain how fast paced and action filled combat is. Been there?
With all respect, but you do come off more like a history buff expert at handling combat in a simulated environment and used to bully teenagers in historical computer games than someone who has seen combat as of lately. When you tried to draw some kind of comparison between WW2 and now when it comes to after action reports, well, it kind of gave you away.
To compare a 19 year old storming a beach with thousand others in a country he only heard about in the news as "the devils land" to DEVGRU, one of the best trained units in the world, with helmet cameras and a legion of media analyzers and spin doctors to back them up (in an operation planned for months) - is faulty to say the least.
The additional fact that you then see yourself to be able to fill some sort of role as umpire between me and Lemur is..
Lemur, I can assure you, somewhere someone put a spin on this. You would not have world media reporting false facts if not. Find the spinner, question the motives.
Although I have been guilty of it myself on far too many occasions, you might not want to get too personal. I can say this as a sinner, 'cause I know the sin. Intimately.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shibumi
Anyway, sure, people are spinning this. The administration wants to trumpet its good news, and who can blame them? The rightist media is doing its best to use this event to exonerate some of the more repugnant episodes of the GWOT; the leftist media is screaming that Obama is now "unbeatable," which is nonsense. Pakistan is paying lobbyists to pour oil on the rightly roiling waves in the US Congress. Everybody's got a chisel out, looking to see what chip of this can work for them. That's natural.
I don't understand, however, your injunction to "find the spinner." The admin shared intel, and some of it got corrected, sometimes with multiple variations. Things were probably confused. It's already been reported that the SEAL who double-tapped OBL had a broken camera helmet, so the higher-ups weren't sure what was happening.
High-tech is very different from infallible. First-tier combat units are still engaged in the confusing, messy, difficult stuff called "combat."
I dunno, where do you want to go with this? Give me the telepathic dolphin's point of view.
-edit-
P.S.: Awesome wardog slideshow. I am filled with canine-American pride.
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...4_wardogs4.jpg
A) The one who shot OBM had a broken camera. Yeah, he was alone there. I can assure you that there is not a chance what so ever that a soldier alone walked into the room. That is, unless the Rambo training finally paid off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
B) Why the "find the spinner" is important? Because someone somewhere tried to outright lie to the world at large. That should not go unnoticed? Do you really believe that the world news portraying OBL as hiding behind a woman was a honest mistake?
Ever seen/read testimony from eye witnesses in court? The accounts are often at odds with one another and with independently measurable facts. This is especially true in confusing/charged situations. Innacuracies -- even gross ones -- cannot be assumed to be the result of purposeful evasion or prevarication.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shibumi
You know, if I was told 9 years ago that Osama Bin Laden would be killed, but I wouldn't get to see the photos, I would have said YES, that's one hell of an acceptable compromise.
People will always find something to complain about.
First false information meant LIES!Quote:
Originally Posted by Shibumi
Now spin means LIES!
If you want to accuse someone of lying, could you point out the lies, rather than the things that are not necessarily lies?
Ajax
I'm only in this thread anymore for those awesome yankeenines. :cheerleader:
Soon, Lemur will dig up pics of the dog scuba team.
But that's not in any of our laws.Quote:
Originally Posted by india
If he was going for a weapon, fine, but if it was perfectly possible to arrest him and he was shot anyway out of pure revenge, then I think that's wrong.
I think it's wrong for a government that is supposed to uphold certain laws to just shoot someone because they think he is guilty.
Of course that's because I don't see the whole mess as a war.
There's even more to dragging him to court than that though, for one you absolutely break the person in many cases, you finally force them to think about what they have done, the atrocities they committed.
And you can break the myth surrounding a person, you can destroy all doubts about that person's guilt anyone may have had left, in many cases the whole glory of that person will fade when they sit there with their head lowered, a criminal, not a glorious leader of some resistance movement.
The assassination and the surrounding secrecy however make for all kinds of stories, half-truths and fabrications as can be seen in this very thread.
I'd even say nobody would care a lot about the raid if we were all discussing his trial in court now.
And concerning the time it takes to settle a case in court, I wouldn't use India as an example.
All in all, I'll rejoice once this terrorism madness stops but I don't see this guy's death as a big practical milestone, symbolic milestone perhaps, but that doesn't mean a whole lot as long as these decentralised structures keep killing people. :shrug:
No scuba dogs just yet, but I did find an awesome shot of a dog with an oxygen mask parachuting from 30k feet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...-parachute.jpg
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shibumi
Nope. Were you in the room when the great conspiracy was hatched to lie about minor details of this incident for one day and then come out the very next day and correct the record?Quote:
Then you go on to explain how fast paced and action filled combat is. Been there?
Interestingly, a careful analysis of military history will lead one to the realization that the primal emotions surrounding armed conflict that lead to errors in recollection are remarkably similar throughout time and technological advancement. You'll note that my entire point was that the inconsistencies in the original story were miniscule in comparison to other AARs that I have read, which is undoubtedly due to the SEAL's experience, level of training, and the technological monitoring capabilities employed.Quote:
With all respect, but you do come off more like a history buff expert at handling combat in a simulated environment and used to bully teenagers in historical computer games than someone who has seen combat as of lately. When you tried to draw some kind of comparison between WW2 and now when it comes to after action reports, well, it kind of gave you away.
To compare a 19 year old storming a beach with thousand others in a country he only heard about in the news as "the devils land" to DEVGRU, one of the best trained units in the world, with helmet cameras and a legion of media analyzers and spin doctors to back them up (in an operation planned for months) - is faulty to say the least.
Your insistence that every tiny detail of the operation must have been known from day one and therefore the United States government was obviously lying is a)naive or b)agenda driven.
Not at all. I simply agreed with Lemur and thought that I could add to his point with my own experience with AARs, as most people are not nerdy enough to spend their free time reading through thousands of them. :smart:Quote:
The additional fact that you then see yourself to be able to fill some sort of role as umpire between me and Lemur is..
%&^@# !! Awesome!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
:unitedstates:
Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war!
Ajax
Wet dog smells worse then spin.
As for defeating an idea, bullets are a poor cousin to a long protracted court case where the defendent gets treated well. Court cases that are factual, follow the rule of the law and give a fair trial are a very effective manner in stripping off any super villan halo.
As for the idea that unless naked the person is armed... does this become a recipricol standard? Is every Aussie nightclubber at a Bali night club now considered armed because they have shirts on? There are far reaching consequeces to even the smallest idea.
Ever seen a videotape/DVD? Or do you think they used 4 helicopters to fly in one guy with a broken helmet cam? How long time do you think it takes to debrief US most highly trained team, several days?Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
I thought I had pointed out the lies. I can assure you that there are more spin doctors involved in this operation than guys with guns.Quote:
Originally Posted by ajaxfetish
As someone mentioned - Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. Yet a majority of Fox viewers years afterwards thought it had. Spin? False info soon corrected? Lies? You must understand what the spin doctors understands, the majority of the population see a headline and take it to their hearts and minds, they do not go out on the internet and search for the truth.
All the world around headlines said OBL hid behind a woman, do you think this is because a reporter misheard a member of the assassination squad? Or do you think that somewhere someone thought it would be a good idea to print this, not necessarily having honesty as top priority?
PJ, I did not say that the US government was lying - that is your guess. I simply said that somewhere in the chain between operatives on the field and headlines around the world someone had an agenda.
As to your self-acclaimed experience of AARs from what I falsely or not assume is hobby reading, I really can not be bothered.
I'm assuming miscommunication somewhere along the lines, possibly reinforced by the desire for a positive spin. That seems most consistent with the swift correction. I'm still not sure what lies you have identified, or who you think is doing the lying. Some amorphous 'them', apparently.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shibumi
Ajax
I would suggest you re-read what I have written in my last posts.Quote:
Originally Posted by ajaxfetish
What you deem apparent really has very little to do with what I have written.
Shibumi
I'll refer you to your own post, #242.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shibumi
From other posts, I can assume you're from somewhere in Scandinavia? In the English language, it is commonly understood that "Washington" implies the US government. Example.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shibumi
Did you mean the state of Washington? The Washington DC city council? The Washington Post? George Washington? :inquisitive:
My post wasn't meant for your entertainment. :shrug:Quote:
As to your self-acclaimed experience of AARs from what I falsely or not assume is hobby reading, I really can not be bothered.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shibumi
That sounds pretty amorphous to me. Care to make it more specific?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shibumi's previous post
Ajax
I would think it would be standard only when it comes to confirmed terrorists. The US armed forces aren't that stupid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Papewaio
...
Actually, it's now reported that the soldiers' video feeds were killed during the raid. Looks like the team was doing as little broadcasting as possible. Radio silence and all of that. So unless their video was stored locally, there may be very limited footage of the raid itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shibumi
Furthermore it appears that the helicopters were some sort of stealth technology, based on the fuselage, eyewitnesses and the rotor of the one that was trashed. Locals didn't hear much until the choppers were right on top of them. If you've been around normal helis, you know they are insanely loud.
Last interesting detail -- from when the raid began until the helis pulled out, power went out in the city and all cells died. Looks like our patriotic geeks have been up to good works. I'm beginning to appreciate what various SEALs mean when they keep talking about what a broad-based team effort this was.
Not the US forces, the ones we are fighting. Fallujah... did the mercs forget to take their shirts off, hence they were considered to being threats? Based on OBL being considered a threat if he wasn't playing for the skins team, it means that from now on anytime the enemy have one of our soliders who surrenders whilst dressed and within the same room as an unsecured firearm they are a threat and can be executed on the spot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyblades
OBL was as a person a threat. His ideas were a much larger one. Much more gains would have made by capturing and sentencing him. Boring, unexciting, unhollywood, but damn effective.
Did OBL get what he deserved. Yeap. Was his death maximised for counter terrorist effect and wiping out his support base, nope a missed oppourtunity.
Special Forces guys are notoriously secretive, this is the best pic available of the Bin Laden assault dog.
https://img15.imageshack.us/img15/24...anmalinois.jpg
Not pure revenge...justice. I think that is the point we differ on. The meaning of justice. While I understand that it would be more 'correct' for a country that is expected to uphold the laws, to follow them to the letter itself, but in some exceptional cases, in my opinion, going by the book is not the best way. Making a system too rigid and ultimate....any system...even the system of justice, is not the optimal way to go. There should always be some leeway that can be used in exceptional cases.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
As for shaming OBL in the courts....Do you really think that would have happened? Do you really think that you can shame a fanatic about his fanaticism or dispel the aura his followers see? Capturing him alive and showing him in the courts as just another guilty criminal might have helped those who feared him get over their fear, but I doubt it would have done anything more for others.
Edit : Nearly 1500 days to 300 :laugh:
Can't say anything about that except for the fact that our system is badly :daisy: I wish the man we're holding here was held there...or even better that he'd have never been held at all, in the first place.
Then I misunderstood, I thought you said that what should be done should be backed by logic and not principles.... In your opinion America needs to show its nobility most of all when it is a question of a terrorist who had no honour. In my opinion displays of honour and nobility are best left to times when there is no risk of anything going sour. I don't think that the majority of Americans or the world think any less of your government now that Osama has been shot and not brought back to trial. The people who do not like and criticize it, are most probably the people who also think that Americans are as bad as terrorists because of the civilian casualties during the war...Very idealistic people..... And when idealists step down from their ivory towers onto the streets, they're apt to step straight into the gutter. I can't remember who said that.Quote:
Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name
Niqaab for men! Progress!Quote:
Originally Posted by drone
Or do you think that somewhere someone thought it would be a good idea to print this, not necessarily having honesty as top priority?
Because you are from Sweden you probably are unfamiliar with the concept free press, they can write what they want and if it turns out to be untrue they will rectify it. In the USA newspapers write newspapers not the government
...
Kinda wrong about that, it isn't that we don't understand it mind youQuote:
Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name
@acin
I understand what you're saying. I actually did not mean one needs to wait to show one's quality until absolutely nothing can go wrong...but atleast until a less high profile situation presents itself.
Anyhow. I believe it finally comes down to the individual opinion as to where one thinks a country can be a little slack in upholding its own principles and laws, so that the system does not become too rigid.......
We don't have anything to debate I guess.
From BBCQuote:
Al-Qaeda has confirmed the death of Osama Bin Laden in a posting on a jihadist website, saying his blood 'will not be wasted', reports say.
A little canine-American pride to get your day started right:
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...4_wardogs1.jpg
Soon it will be Neodogs and Marauder suits....Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
Amphibious dogs...parachuting dogs...dogs jumping out of helicopters....ever never knew those things existed. If I were a terrorist I'd be getting real worried right about now! :jumping:
Also: http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/wanted_by_the_fbi :cool3:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
“Amphibious dogs...parachuting dogs...dogs jumping out of helicopters....ever never knew those things existed”
Louis, you should go and have a walk in a park or “à la campagne”, and you will probably see a dog swimming in a pound, river or other piece of water.
An amphibious dog that is just a military dog that swims.
As for the jumping one, just join the Army… Or find recruitment pamphlet “engagez vous, rengagez vous, vous verrez du pays” how they used to say. Probably a picture on it.
Joke a part, I remember my trainer when I was in the process/training to go through the door saying the difficulty to jump with a dog as the animal refuse (well, instinct) to do it. Having experimented this visceral fear myself and overcome it only by the sheer power of training and a dead brain (at that moment, thanks), I can’t really blame the dog.
I would have bite the adjudant if I could…
Apparently, bin Laden was more involved in operational planning in recent years than many thought.
So maybe this is more than just as symbolic victory? One can hope.Quote:
Bin Laden's leadership: The wealth of information pulled from bin Laden's compound has reinforced the strong role he played in planning and directing attacks by al-Qaida and its affiliates in Yemen and Somalia, senior U.S. officials said Friday.
And the data further demonstrate to the U.S. that top al-Qaida commanders and other key insurgents are scattered throughout Pakistan, not just in the rugged border areas, and are being supported and given sanctuary by Pakistanis, a senior defense official said.
U.S. counterterrorism officials have debated how big a role bin Laden and core al-Qaida leaders were playing in the attacks launched by affiliated terrorist groups, particularly al-Qaida in the Arabian Peninsula, which is based in Yemen, and al-Shabab in Somalia.
Information gathered in the compound, officials said, strengthened beliefs that bin Laden was a lot more involved in directing al-Qaida personnel and operations than sometimes thought over the last decade. And it suggests bin Laden was "giving strategic direction" to al-Qaida affiliates in Somalia and Yemen, the defense official said.
Bin Laden's first priority, the official said, was his own security. But the data show that he was far more active in providing guidance and telling affiliated groups in Yemen and Somalia what they should or should not be doing.
The officials spoke on condition of anonymity.
I see his DNA results are in: 24% cocoa, 52% coconut, 18% sugar and 6% milk.
Probably due to the bounty on his head.
LOL@(naturally)England, pro Bin Laden protests, good job labour that's how you rub diversity in the noses of the right.
Ijjits
Keep it classy, Mohamed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony