Low Gaul morale

I've noticed on my Sweboz game that the Aedui and Arverni rout very quickly. I'm not using any scary units or anything, and they usually outnumber me. If I was fighting Romans and they had the same number of troops as some of these Gaul armies, I'd probably lose the battle. Usually about a minute after my main line engages, the gauls break and I chase them down.

I mean, I could easily make a joke about French people retreating, but that doesn't explain anything. Why do the gauls have such low morale?

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Originally Posted by Unintended BM

I mean, I could easily make a joke about French people retreating, but that doesn't explain anything. Why do the gauls have such low morale?

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Possibly because you're facing all-levies armies. Gauls in this game are a type of faction with a very strong core of elite units, and a large base of average warriors/levies.

I've fought quite a few Solduros and naked dudes. The naked dudes never rout, but I just kill them with javelins and slingers. Solduros like to kill my FMs, but they usually run when the rest of the army starts going.

But really, usually I face them with one or two FMs, a bunch of levy and regular germanic spearmen, and some germanic archers or celtic slingers and maybe some celtic swordsmen mercenaries. Are my spearmen really superior to regular celtic spearmen?

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Originally Posted by Unintended BM

Are my spearmen really superior to regular celtic spearmen?

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Yes. The strength of the celtic armies are (except of spear-elites) their swordsmen. The levy spearmen are no good line-infantry, only good to fight some Cavalry and outnumber the enemy. The southern and later spearmen are able to hold some time longer but stil the germanic ones are superior. Without a change to the EDU your spearman (*) could also be able to win one on one against the northern celtic Swordsmen.

Also germanic and celtic troops have high charge bonus which gives the better attacker a high advantage.

*There is some modifation of the edu which gives all spearman a penalty of 4 to attack, so that the spearmen are no longer superior in melee to swordsmen.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Unintended BM

I've fought quite a few Solduros and naked dudes. The naked dudes never rout, but I just kill them with javelins and slingers. Solduros like to kill my FMs, but they usually run when the rest of the army starts going.

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Solduros and Gaesatae are some of the game's toughest units. The Carnutes are even nastier in some respect.

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Are my spearmen really superior to regular celtic spearmen?

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Yes, and here's why (my "homemade" eplanation): Gauls were actually more civilized than most people think. Hence the regular Gallic units are maybe less hardened than the warriors of a more primitive, aggressive culture situated in a rougher climate (rough or extreme climate means axebitten inhabitants, see Afghanistan, Frisia, Scotland, ...).
Also, the Germanic tribes were described as more disciplined as Gauls.

And don't forget that you are infinitely better as a general than the RTW AI, which also contributes to the phenomenon.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Code:

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;61
type            celtic infantry gaeroas
dictionary      celtic_infantry_gaeroas      ; Gaeroas
category        infantry
class            spearmen
voice_type      General_1
soldier          celtic_infantry_gaeroas_balroae, 50, 0, 1.1
officer          ebofficer_celtic_officer
officer          ebofficer_celtic_standardbearer
mount_effect    elephant -3
attributes      sea_faring, hide_improved_forest, hardy
formation        1, 1.4, 2, 2.8, 5, square
stat_health      1, 1
stat_pri        5, 6, javelin, 45, 3, thrown, archery, piercing, spear, 10 , 1
stat_pri_attr    prec, thrown
stat_sec        15, 6, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 0 ,0.13
stat_sec_attr    light_spear
stat_pri_armour  1, 12, 3, flesh
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        2
stat_ground      0, 0, 1, -1
stat_mental      10, impetuous, trained
stat_charge_dist 40
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 1208, 302, 50, 70, 1208
ownership        britons, gauls, scythia, slave, romans_julii, romans_brutii, romans_scipii, numidia, macedon, thrace, greek_cities, egypt, carthage, spain, seleucid, dacia, pontus, parthia, armenia, saba, germans

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Code:

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;32
type            germanic infantry frameharjoz
dictionary      germanic_infantry_frameharjoz      ; Dugunthiz
category        infantry
class            heavy
voice_type      General_1
soldier          germanic_infantry_dugunthiz_chattispearmen, 50, 0, 1.1
officer          ebofficer_germanic_standardbearer
mount_effect    elephant -3
attributes      sea_faring, hide_improved_forest, hardy
formation        0.76, 1, 1.4, 2, 5, square
stat_health      1, 1
stat_pri        7, 8, javelin, 30, 2, thrown, simple, piercing, spear, 10 ,1
stat_pri_attr    prec, thrown
stat_sec        15, 8, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 0 ,0.13
stat_sec_attr    light_spear
stat_pri_armour  2, 12, 3, flesh
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        2
stat_ground      0, 0, 1, 0
stat_mental      11, impetuous, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 1233, 308, 81, 140, 1233
ownership        germans, romans_julii, romans_brutii, numidia, macedon, thrace, greek_cities, egypt, carthage, parthia, gauls, britons, scythia, spain, dacia, armenia, pontus, romans_scipii, seleucid, saba, slave

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Also, perhaps you had this kinda situation, the domino effect. Like in my SPQR campaign, i attacked a 3500 ptoly army with 2000 romans, and once i engaded the line an the FM died, i rushed at left flank with my extraodrinarii, and first the first unit routed, then then next phalanx, and then the next and in 10 seconds the whole army statred to rout. I lost only 100 men even though the ptolies had like 8 phalanx units, and i almost no cavalry

I've seen your arme composition in the EB empires thread and with that army it's no wonder, that you root the celts so fast; seven units of sweboz bodyguards are seven units of elites and 5 units of experienced slingers kill about half of the enemy army before you can engage them.

EDIT: Typo.

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Originally Posted by Kival

I've seen your arme composition in the EB empires thread and with that army it's no wonder, that you root the celts so fast; seven units of sweboz bodyguards are seven units of elites and 5 units of experienced slingers kill about have of the enemy army before you can engage them.

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That's not my usual army, but that army was awesome. I had three big armies going through gaul, and they all met up around there, so to save troops and to beat the crap out of everything, I just did that. Usually I just use a bunch of spearmen and maybe 1 or 2 FMs with some germanic archers.

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with some germanic archers.

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ah the crappiest of the archers yet in the campaign probably the most effective :DDD

Celts do have rather low morale compered to Sweboz when similar looking units face each other, yet Sweboz units have pretty high moral overall(probably do to what athanaic said) the advantage of the celts(next to economic advantages of course) (and their Elite units) is their weapon technology, they have a lot more and better swords than the Sweboz and tend to have better armor. in my Sweboz campaign the celts were easy prey until they started useing bataroas as line troops. Dugunthiz are exellent line troops(when no archers around) but those guys just got better choppaz^^. this made them a easy enemy...

And don't forget about them....
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...oz_slaganz.gif

When the Gauls switch to heavy armoured swordsmen and fancy heavy cavalries, these guys will save your ass... :grin:
I swear in frontal combat, one unit of them could beat one unit of Solduros!!! :thumbsup:

I started an Arverni game, and the lower morale is apparent, at least for the spearmen. I've never had any german troops rout when I was using them, but both the levy and regular gaul spearmen rout whenever I have them holding their place in towns. I have them block a street in a town, then send my swordsmen around to the other side to flank the enemy, but half the time, my spearmen rout before I can get my swordmen around.

In my Sweboz game, I basically already wiped out the gauls, so I'm not worried about fighting them. I'm worried about fighting the Sweboz on my Arverni game now though.

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Originally Posted by Unintended BM

I started an Arverni game, and the lower morale is apparent, at least for the spearmen. I've never had any german troops rout when I was using them, but both the levy and regular gaul spearmen rout whenever I have them holding their place in towns. I have them block a street in a town, then send my swordsmen around to the other side to flank the enemy, but half the time, my spearmen rout before I can get my swordmen around.

In my Sweboz game, I basically already wiped out the gauls, so I'm not worried about fighting them. I'm worried about fighting the Sweboz on my Arverni game now though.

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1) Did you built Taverns on your home? If yes, don't forget that for some good reasons, More Civilized Celts are prone to had bad vices (and yes, morale reducing) vices from Taverns..... where the Sweboz got insane and get Berserkergang, Biting Shields, and much morale improving vices... :grin:
2) Made sure the Sweboz army didn't have naked guys in black...
3) Train your own naked guys... they improve the morale of your men (the Uirodusios)

I didn't know Sweboz FMs get good traits from taverns. I just assumed everyone got bad traits from them. I usually get rid of them, but I'll keep that in mind for my Sweboz game.

Those black naked guys are crazy. I'll probably end up spamming a lot of naked dudes in my Arverni game.

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Originally Posted by Unintended BM

Those black naked guys are crazy. I'll probably end up spamming a lot of naked dudes in my Arverni game.

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Sure, but don't come back complaining about low Roman morale after you sack Rome with your porno army. :clown:

Srsly, the naked Gallic buggers are crazy.

Yeah, I always have huge trouble taking Segesta and the other northern Italian town with the naked dudes on my Roman games, I can only imagine how great they'd be elsewhere. I've used the galatian variant before, but I can only imagine how easy the game would get if I could constantly recruit and retrain them.

And if you really want ZE unit for Sweboz : Worgozez. pitty they're only merc, but they seriously will refuse to die even in front of the stubbornest ennemy! I used them extensively in my sweboz campain... and I ate Romans for breakfest with them! I engaged them just a bit later in the battle, to let the time for the moral to go lower a bit for the roman, and uasualy, with their AO axes and their scary attribute, it's a rout on contact! the same with the Black naked dudes

The problem with gaul armies is that they rarely field any notable cavallery and have lots of levies, which are routing fast and by that reduce the morale of the other troops. Everytime I won against the gauls it was because of a mass rout. Esspecially after the death of the general, which is easier to kill, than the sweboz one.
Its the same with camillan roman armies. Their Triarri are insanly powerfull and never rout, except when you rout their rorarii first...^^

but the problem for almost every AI led army is mass rout... even with the grey plague... their phalangitai are unkillable, but kill their general, and surround them fast, and it's almost surely a rout. I don't think it's only a Gaul problem...

yeah but gauls rout before they are surrounded :/
funnily they rout as soon as their charge wears of, exactly like some roman chronits discribe them.^^
and always remember when facing phalangitai: a surrounded Phalangite is a dead Phalangite.

PS: Wargozez: WIN!

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Originally Posted by Ca Putt

yeah but gauls rout before they are surrounded :/
funnily they rout as soon as their charge wears of, exactly like some roman chronits discribe them.^^
and always remember when facing phalangitai: a surrounded Phalangite is a dead Phalangite.

PS: Wargozez: WIN!

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Exactly. Simply fighting the gaul levies lets them rout. But I have the feeling its the same for the roman levies, but not for most other factions. Phalangitai never rout, when only enganged at the front and so do the sweboz and lusotann.

Well, why complaining about the likelyness of a Gaul rout? the guy's playing as Sweboz, i think it's great! so you need one scary unit to rout the army and one unit of light cav... to play in the routing mass after it! don't complain! you'll see, late in the game when you'll face Maks (if they come up, like they did to me) against phalangitai, now the real sport begin! or when you take the territory near the sauromate, and they decide they want it also... it's scary the casualities them nomad inflict on our disarmoured units... so if you want real sport, wait before expanding, and you'll see that rout is something that happens less often

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Originally Posted by Unintended BM

I started an Arverni game, and the lower morale is apparent, at least for the spearmen. I've never had any german troops rout when I was using them, but both the levy and regular gaul spearmen rout whenever I have them holding their place in towns. I have them block a street in a town, then send my swordsmen around to the other side to flank the enemy, but half the time, my spearmen rout before I can get my swordmen around.

In my Sweboz game, I basically already wiped out the gauls, so I'm not worried about fighting them. I'm worried about fighting the Sweboz on my Arverni game now though.

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Everybody worries about the Sweboz, as it should be. Historically everybody did.

Seconded... yeah, i made a mistake, i told he was playing as sweboz... i just saw that he's playing as Arverni.. Sorry!

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Originally Posted by Duguntz

Seconded... yeah, i made a mistake, i told he was playing as sweboz... i just saw that he's playing as Arverni.. Sorry!

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Actually he's playing as both. Originally he was talking about how in his Sweboz game, the Gallic armies routed very quickly. But now he also is playing an Arverni game where he is worried about fighting the Sweboz.

haaa... Ok thanks... well, EVERYONE should worry about Sweboz (especially their neighbour!)

And themselves, but that is not reflected in RTW except through the nasty rebels (read, best way of getting the leet post-reform Sweboz units, *sends a loaded and experienced diplomat the Rebel Hárjánáz' way*)

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Originally Posted by Macilrille

And themselves, but that is not reflected in RTW except through the nasty rebels (read, best way of getting the leet post-reform Sweboz units, *sends a loaded and experienced diplomat the Rebel Hárjánáz' way*)

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True i must say, but in that time, every one had to worry about themself also, as war between petty kingdoms and neighbour territories was frequent, as chieftains tried to extend their sphere of influence...

In EB2 the rapid routing of A.I. led Celts will be fixed for levy types, especially in the early era when the warrior society wasn't as exclusive and in the hands of the 'few' as it was in the Later Era. That being said, the levies of the later era will probably not be as powerful as the early era, but the armored chainmail/javelin/lance infantry and cavaly will be professionals in every sense of the word, though I hope to make them a bit smaller in number that ones in the Early Era. So if all comes to be, you'll be facing stronger lower end units in the start, but as time goes on those lower end units loose their 'edge' as the professionals become more specialized, more armored, and focused upon their craft, especially with their infantry and mounted semi-professional fighting vassals and men-at-arms in tow. It will not be the 'walk over' it seems to be in EB1 -- I never see the Celts excell in Europe in the hundreds of campaigns I've played

Sounds nice :-D
In my current Roman Campaign the Aedui were doing quite well, having all of Gaul except "Brittany" and Massilia (Greek till the Greeks attacked me and I took it) and reducing the Averni to two settlements in the Alpe Region. Their war with the Sweboz had turned against them after they had pushed forwards to take the northernmost Gawjam, but they held their own against Sweboz and Lussos in Gaul itself. Then they decide for no reason to attack a fort of mine bordering not themselves, but the Averni and I had to punish them. I gave them the two settlements I took and plundered back in exchange for peace, but I fear that they are now broken and will be pushed back by Sweboz and Luso unless I give them lots of money. I am allied to both their enemies so...

I will probably use the Console instead to help them a bit.

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Originally Posted by Macilrille

I gave them the two settlements I took and plundered back in exchange for peace, but I fear that they are now broken and will be pushed back by Sweboz and Luso unless I give them lots of money. I am allied to both their enemies so...

I will probably use the Console instead to help them a bit.

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That's the thing about the Gallic factions in EB. It's very possible for either the Aedui or Arverni to come out on top early and take all of Gaul, but the problem is then they tend not to last long in this position because they get squeezed by the Sweboz, Romani, and sometimes the Lusos. I've seen strong Sweboz and Romani empires quite a bit, and there are instances where the Lusotanians go berserk and take the entire west half of Europe, but I don't recall ever seeing a Gallic faction do the same thing. They can hang on for a while with a decent empire in Gaul, but they always seem to come out the underdog in the end. So, it's a good thing that EB2 is working to change this.

Well, I think it would have been a stalemate between them all three had he noot foolishly attacked me.

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Originally Posted by Macilrille

Well, I think it would have been a stalemate between them all three had he noot foolishly attacked me.

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True, but my personal experience has just generally been that even though the Gauls can hold the Romani, Sweboz, Lusos, etc. to a stalemate for quite a while, I rarely see them actively creating an empire larger than Gaul itself and they eventually tend to get absorbed by the surrounding factions. There are obviously exceptions though.

In general I agree, I just like nitpicking. Eventually the Lusos and Sweboz would have shared Gaul.

The Gauls should be made a proper use of their Leuce Epos and Sweboz will be a piece of cake...
Too bad, the AI are so stubborn and choose to field 2 units of lugoae instead... :wall:

Seriously guys, the only department that Celts outshine sweboz (sightly, Sweboz reigns supreme in the North), are cavalry....

Hey, you forgot about swordsmen! Gauls get swords earlier than germans, and they come in greater numbers.

Too bad AI doesn't use those swordsmen enough, but focus on Lugoae. I mean, Bataroas are one of the few gaul units that are actually match for Swebos infantry, but now they just rout with the rest of the army. Stupid AI!

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Originally Posted by Cute Wolf

The Gauls should be made a proper use of their Leuce Epos and Sweboz will be a piece of cake...
Too bad, the AI are so stubborn and choose to field 2 units of lugoae instead... :wall:

Seriously guys, the only department that Celts outshine sweboz (sightly, Sweboz reigns supreme in the North), are cavalry....

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I thought the germanic cavallery and esspecially the celtic german mixed cavallery are far superior to leuce Epos?

They are far superios... the Reidonez are better than Leuce Epos and beats them on every field

German and Celto-German cavalry are also more of a skirmisher and "anti-cavalry" unit than the more general-use Leuce Epos (Celto-German cavalry can wipe out Roman bodyguards for example) however, they don't do as well charging against infantry
They're also a bit more expensive

The cavalry issue will also remedied (forgot to mention that!). The Celts were a culture with a big focus on horses. When I was redoin the units, I could not understand why they had just 2 horse types (under different names) to be found. Maybe its a RTW limitation on the EDU slots, not sure. However in EB2 you'll have a larger selection of horses and these will do the Celts proud for sure.

On a historical cavalry related note that some of y'all might be interested in, I was reading the archeological discoveries at Alesia, in French, but enough was apparent. There are some interesting horses found there, skeletons of course. Apparently the Gaul had some of the larger breeds that were found outside of the Celtic regions, like found in Italy, Scythia, etc...but bones to those horses were few and far between which denote these were valuable perhaps, and not readily offered up. Next came the Gallic ponies, the small Iron Age breeds that are common and much smaller than modern breeds (yet maintain the stamina and energy of the larger ones, and incredibly disease resistant in comparison to them). Also found were even smaller horses that are found east of the Rhine only, which denote trade with the Germanic, or Celto-Germanics living there. I hope the similar sizes can be used in game. We'll have to see...

I think that some of the stats for EB1 might have been focused on the Gallic War, perhaps. In EB2 Arverni and Aedui will not/shouldnot be at war in the beginning of EB2. That would not have happened until sometime after 121 B.C. I was entertaining an idea that perhaps a script can be written for the Gallic Civil Wars or, well, Inter Tribal warfare (for the politically correct out there) to occur under certain situations, say both of them have 'x' number of provinces or something...

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Originally Posted by Cute Wolf

The Gauls should be made a proper use of their Leuce Epos and Sweboz will be a piece of cake...
Too bad, the AI are so stubborn and choose to field 2 units of lugoae instead... :wall:

Seriously guys, the only department that Celts outshine sweboz (sightly, Sweboz reigns supreme in the North), are cavalry....

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I disagree completely. The Sweboz outshine the Gauls in regular line troops to a certain extent, but not by very much. The Northern Gallic swordsmen can stand up to any line unit the Sweboz produce, while the top-tier armored units like the Carnutes, the Solduri, and the Arverni Arjos are clearly superior to the Sweboz top-tier and line units, not to mention the Gaestae. Cavalry-wise, the sweboz are at a dsiadvantage to the Gauls obviously. Why the Sweboz are so dominant over the Gauls is that they can produce better-quality cheaper troops, and also obviously produce better spearmen and lower-end units. The Gauls have the ability to produce better troops, but economic restraints and AI stupidity tend to hold them back. The Sweboz have the same AI stupidity and economic restraints, but the cheap units that they produce are superior to the cheap Gallic units.

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Originally Posted by Power2the1

The cavalry issue will also remedied (forgot to mention that!). The Celts were a culture with a big focus on horses. When I was redoin the units, I could not understand why they had just 2 horse types (under different names) to be found. Maybe its a RTW limitation on the EDU slots, not sure. However in EB2 you'll have a larger selection of horses and these will do the Celts proud for sure.

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Sounds like the Gauls will change a lot.

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On a historical cavalry related note that some of y'all might be interested in, I was reading the archeological discoveries at Alesia, in French, but enough was apparent. There are some interesting horses found there, skeletons of course. Apparently the Gaul had some of the larger breeds that were found outside of the Celtic regions, like found in Italy, Scythia, etc...but bones to those horses were few and far between which denote these were valuable perhaps, and not readily offered up. Next came the Gallic ponies, the small Iron Age breeds that are common and much smaller than modern breeds (yet maintain the stamina and energy of the larger ones, and incredibly disease resistant in comparison to them). Also found were even smaller horses that are found east of the Rhine only, which denote trade with the Germanic, or Celto-Germanics living there. I hope the similar sizes can be used in game. We'll have to see...

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All Under Heaven features Steppe "Ponies", maybe you guys can share them?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://img130.imageshack.us/img130/6351/alixi06.png

On the cavalry comparison - time for some facts. With all reforms having kicked in, Gauls and Germans in EB I are about equal when it comes to cavalry.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

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;69
type            germanic cavalry ridoharjoz
dictionary      germanic_cavalry_ridoharjoz      ; Ridanz
category        cavalry
class            light
voice_type      General_1
soldier          germanic_cavalry_ridoharjoz_komataihippeis, 25, 0, 1
officer          ebofficer_germanic_standardbearer
mount            light horse
mount_effect    elephant -2, chariot +2
attributes      sea_faring, hide_improved_forest, hardy, cantabrian_circle
formation        1.8, 4, 3, 6, 4, square
stat_health      1, 1
stat_pri        8, 27, javelin, 31.5, 4, thrown, simple, piercing, spear, 10 ,1
stat_pri_attr    thrown
stat_sec        9, 27, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 0 ,0.15
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  4, 12, 3, flesh
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        3
stat_ground      0, 0, -2, 0
stat_mental      13, impetuous, trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 2745, 686, 60, 80, 2745
ownership        germans, slave, romans_julii, saba, romans_brutii, numidia, macedon, thrace, greek_cities, egypt, carthage, romans_scipii

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Code:

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;496
type            germanic cavalry marhathegnoz
dictionary      germanic_cavalry_marhathegnoz      ; Marhathegnoz
category        cavalry
class            heavy
voice_type      General_1
soldier          celtic_cavalry_brihentin_remimairepos_lavotuxri_marhathegnoz, 25, 0, 1
mount            medium horse
mount_effect    elephant -4, chariot +2
attributes      sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy
formation        1.5, 4, 3, 6, 4, square
stat_health      1, 1
stat_pri        6, 30, no, 0, 0, melee, siege, piercing, spear, 160 ,0.33
stat_pri_attr    ap
stat_sec        12, 15, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, slashing, sword, 0 ,0.225
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  11, 11, 2, metal
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        4
stat_ground      0, 0, -2, 0
stat_mental      16, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 4034, 1009, 95, 444, 4034
ownership        germans

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Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

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;58
type            celtic skirmisher cavalry leuce epos
dictionary      celtic_skirmisher_cavalry_leuce_epos      ; Leuce Epos
category        cavalry
class            missile
voice_type      General_1
soldier          celtic_cavalry_leuceepos_equitesgallovrum, 25, 0, 1
mount            medium horse
mount_effect    elephant -2, chariot +2
attributes      sea_faring, hide_improved_forest, very_hardy
formation        2, 4, 4, 6, 5, square
stat_health      1, 1
stat_pri        4, 30, javelin, 55, 8, thrown, simple, piercing, spear, 10 ,1
stat_pri_attr    thrown
stat_sec        3, 30, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 160 ,0.33
stat_sec_attr    ap
stat_pri_armour  5, 11, 2, flesh
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        2
stat_ground      0, 0, -3, -1
stat_mental      11, impetuous, trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 1983, 496, 40, 60, 1983
ownership        gauls, scythia, slave, britons, germans, romans_julii, romans_brutii, romans_scipii, numidia, macedon, thrace, greek_cities, egypt, carthage, spain, dacia, pontus, parthia, armenia, saba

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Code:

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;17
type            celtic cavalry brihentin
dictionary      celtic_cavalry_brihentin      ; Brihentin
category        cavalry
class            heavy
voice_type      General_1
soldier          celtic_cavalry_brihentin_remimairepos_lavotuxri_marhathegnoz, 25, 0, 1
officer          ebofficer_celtic_standardbearer
mount            heavy horse
mount_effect    elephant -4, chariot +2
attributes      sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy
formation        1.5, 4, 3, 6, 4, square
stat_health      1, 1
stat_pri        4, 30, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 160 ,0.33
stat_pri_attr    ap
stat_sec        9, 15, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, slashing, sword, 0 ,0.225
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  11, 9, 2, metal
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        4
stat_ground      0, 0, -3, -1
stat_mental      13, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 3100, 775, 95, 444, 3100
ownership        gauls, scythia, britons, slave, thrace, greek_cities, egypt, spain, seleucid, saba, pontus, armenia

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Suebi cavalry units are a little stronger in melee than the standard Gallic ones, but Gauls have acccess to Belgae cavalry.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vilkku92

Hey, you forgot about swordsmen! Gauls get swords earlier than germans, and they come in greater numbers.

Too bad AI doesn't use those swordsmen enough, but focus on Lugoae. I mean, Bataroas are one of the few gaul units that are actually match for Swebos infantry, but now they just rout with the rest of the army. Stupid AI!

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Um.... maybe I forgot about it.... BTW, Germanic heavy infantry also available as mercs, so talking about wider and easier to get....
BTW, Sweboz got bigger swords (marshikoi Lugii), the only celts that outshine them are Kluddargos, and they are only in Brits.... BTW, talking about the hyper insanity Gaesatae.... I think I really forgot to mention it... sorry.... (because most of the time, my Medikikas allready take care the most of them)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Os-Q

German and Celto-German cavalry are also more of a skirmisher and "anti-cavalry" unit than the more general-use Leuce Epos (Celto-German cavalry can wipe out Roman bodyguards for example) however, they don't do as well charging against infantry
They're also a bit more expensive

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Talking about cost-effectiveness, not per unit power, Gallic cavalry wins..... Reidonez is good at melee too, but they can't really hurt in a single charge (where the leuce epos can), and don't forget, the Brihentin are quite cheaper than their germanic counterparts... not talking about Remi Mairepos and their Gallic cavalry general...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kekailoa

I disagree completely. The Sweboz outshine the Gauls in regular line troops to a certain extent, but not by very much. The Northern Gallic swordsmen can stand up to any line unit the Sweboz produce, while the top-tier armored units like the Carnutes, the Solduri, and the Arverni Arjos are clearly superior to the Sweboz top-tier and line units, not to mention the Gaestae. Cavalry-wise, the sweboz are at a dsiadvantage to the Gauls obviously. Why the Sweboz are so dominant over the Gauls is that they can produce better-quality cheaper troops, and also obviously produce better spearmen and lower-end units. The Gauls have the ability to produce better troops, but economic restraints and AI stupidity tend to hold them back. The Sweboz have the same AI stupidity and economic restraints, but the cheap units that they produce are superior to the cheap Gallic units.

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Yeah.... Sweboz units are really bang for the bucks... if you try to use the Gallic Swordsmen everywhere in early-mid campaign, your economy will simply broke up....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kekailoa

I disagree completely. The Sweboz outshine the Gauls in regular line troops to a certain extent, but not by very much. The Northern Gallic swordsmen can stand up to any line unit the Sweboz produce,

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The standard Germanic swordsmen are significantly better in terms of quality, they just suffer from smaller unit size and poor javelin range.
Compare:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Code:

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;66
type            celtic infantry bataroas
dictionary      celtic_infantry_bataroas      ; Bataroas
category        infantry
class            heavy
voice_type      General_1
soldier          celtic_infantry_bataroas_northerncuroas, 50, 0, 1.1
officer          ebofficer_celtic_officer
officer          ebofficer_celtic_standardbearer
mount_effect    elephant -2, chariot +2
attributes      sea_faring, hide_improved_forest, very_hardy
formation        1.2, 1.6, 2.4, 3.2, 4, square
stat_health      1, 1
stat_pri        6, 8, javelin, 35, 2, thrown, simple, piercing, spear, 10 ,1
stat_pri_attr    prec, thrown
stat_sec        10, 8, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, slashing, sword, 0 ,0.225
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  5, 12, 3, flesh
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        2
stat_ground      0, 0, 1, -1
stat_mental      11, impetuous, trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 1503, 376, 196, 374, 1503
ownership        gauls, scythia, slave

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Code:

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;73
type            germanic infantry sahsnotoz
dictionary      germanic_infantry_sahsnotoz      ; Herunautoz
category        infantry
class            heavy
voice_type      General_1
soldier          germanic_infantry_sahsnotoz_pictones_cherusciiswordsmen, 40, 0, 1.15
officer          ebofficer_germanic_standardbearer
mount_effect    elephant -4
attributes      sea_faring, hide_improved_forest, very_hardy
formation        0.85, 1.2, 1.4, 2, 4, square
stat_health      1, 1
stat_pri        7, 8, javelin, 30, 2, thrown, simple, piercing, spear, 10 ,1
stat_pri_attr    prec, thrown
stat_sec        11, 8, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, slashing, sword, 0 ,0.225
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  5, 13, 3, flesh
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        2
stat_ground      0, 0, 1, 0
stat_mental      13, impetuous, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 40
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 1646, 412, 50, 70, 1646
ownership        germans, slave, romans_julii, romans_brutii, numidia, macedon, thrace, greek_cities, egypt, carthage, spain, dacia, parthia, armenia, pontus, seleucid, saba

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Quote:

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The Gauls have the ability to produce better troops, but economic restraints and AI stupidity tend to hold them back. The Sweboz have the same AI stupidity and economic restraints,

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Gallic economy/infrastructure is way better than Swêboz economy. Paved roads, univerities, better farms, hero tombs, for starters (Gallic economy is almost equal to that of Hayasdan).

Quote:

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but the cheap units that they produce are superior to the cheap Gallic units.

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That's true.

Quote:

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Cavalry-wise, the sweboz are at a disadvantage to the Gauls obviously.

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No.
See my post above.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cute Wolf

and don't forget, the Brihentin are quite cheaper than their germanic counterparts

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And weaker, accordingly.

Quote:

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not talking about Remi Mairepos

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As expensive and strong as the Germanic guys.

Quote:

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if you try to use the Gallic Swordsmen everywhere in early-mid campaign, your economy will simply broke up....

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Besides, it wouldn't be very realistic.

not agree. On a 1 to 1 basis, the clubman of sweboz (wich is a medium unit) eat the Solduri for breakfest! not only, on my own experiance, I kill the Mighty Katas with those clubmen. I mean, Sweboz clearly outshine celts on a unit level. you speak about economics? common, celts have ZE best economics of all northen cultures, while the Sweboz struggle and still winn over numericly superior celt opponant. why? because their units are better!

Which is the fun and "barbaric" part of playing the Sweboz; your economy sucks, you cannot build proper cities and have no stone building- but lots of wood in your forests. But your hardy, warlike and savage people will flock to their warlord's banner to pour out of the north and plunder the weak Wolhoz and Rumi, carrying home a rich booty of trophies, riches, women and slaves, for you may not be able to build cities, but you can take them...

The Gallic elite units are fine, unfortunately the AI does not build them, while the elite German Ferulharjoz should be very expensive, since they were rare. I could never build them anyway. Perhaps the Solduros and Carnutes should be less expensive.

*thinking about made a submod that tweak the economy and unit cost somewhat*

Actually I noticed that the gallic factions do produce a fair amount of Solduros at least. Their main issue is that they recruit too many Lugoae and fight amongst each other and the Romans too much to be competative once the Sweboz arrive. In the games where Carthage attacks Rome early, the Aedui usually maintain a solid hold on most of Gaul.

Gauls may sometimes withstand their neighbors but I've never seen them really powerfull with more than Gaul and maybe the Boii regions or Galatia. whereas I often see them field Bataroas and the better spearmen i've just forgot the name of next to Solduros and Neietos still those lugoae are a weak point that makes it easy to rout the whole army

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ca Putt

whereas I often see them field Bataroas and the better spearmen i've just forgot the name of next to Solduros and Neitos still those Lugoae are a weak point that makes it easy to rout the whole army

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You mean Gaelaiche. The good thing is that by the Time of Soldiers reform, they lose Lugoae, forcing them to recruit the much more useful Gaelaiche instead. The bad thing is that by that time they are too weakened from internal strife and the Romans, Lusotannan, and Swêboz eat them alive.

Actually, the main problem with RTW.exe are the Lusotannan. Once they've kicked out Carthage, they rule supreme over a very rich area, with nobody threatening their back. I frequently see them gobble up Gaul and Rome, which is not amusing at all (I'd much rather see the boring old Romans or the Suebi become an empire, because that's more historically accurate (and coupled with a nicer factional colour. On the minimap, the Lusos holding all of Europe looks like a scenario of WW2 where the bad guys won).

In my campaigns Lusotannan are not that strong. Maybe it's because of the -4 attack reduction for light spear units in my EDU.

yeah, on my sweboz Campaing, I don't expand before the 220BC (for the fun and challenge to see real roman... if sweboz go toward rome early on... to take Barbaropolis is as hars as picking flowers in a wood walk) but still keep strong frontiers, so as they can't expand eastward, the Aedui went to knock on the door of lusos... they fare pretty well and lusos loose ground... in fact, only once have I seen lusos really strong. usualy, they're strong but Cartage hold fast to her northen border of the empire, and it seems the Lusos can't do sh** about it...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by athanaric

On the minimap, the Lusos holding all of Europe looks like a scenario of WW2 where the bad guys won).

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LOL good one! Make me think about the table game axis and allies!

My Gauls are great against Sweboz, the combination of slingers, armor, javelins, and deciding to lure them into unwinable sieges can be devastating to Sweboz armies, especially when so many of them are Germanic Archers and unarmored spearmen.

The clubmen used once in awhile are never a match for slingers. The best part about slingers is they are also almost all virtually the same, but they don't all come with the same price tag.

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Originally Posted by TancredTheNorman

The best part about slingers is they are also almost all virtually the same, but they don't all come with the same price tag.

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Um, no. There are significant differences in range, attack, ammo, and protection. Even knife lethality (Balearics 0.11 > Gauls/Dacians 0.1 > all others 0.04) The Gallic dudes are very efficient, though - their mediocre range notwithstanding.
If you want to truly devastate the enemy, you can hire some Balearic slingers. They have slightly better range and the highest attack of all slingers, as well as the best melee weapon (AP!). Only their protection (1/9/1) and ammo (20) are inferior to those of the Iaosatae (who have 35 pebbles, which is the biggest amount of ammo for any slinger unit).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by athanaric

Um, no. There are significant differences in range, attack, ammo, and protection. Even knife lethality (Balearics 0.11 > Gauls/Dacians 0.1 > all others 0.04) The Gallic dudes are very efficient, though - their mediocre range notwithstanding.
If you want to truly devastate the enemy, you can hire some Balearic slingers. They have slightly better range and the highest attack of all slingers, as well as the best melee weapon (AP!). Only their protection (1/9/1) and ammo (20) are inferior to those of the Iaosatae (who have 35 pebbles, which is the biggest amount of ammo for any slinger unit).

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What about Rhodian slingers? They are pretty good, specially when heading east to fight armoured infantry/cavalry, and have some armour against missile attacks. The only problem is that they can only be recruited in Rhodes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NikosMaximilian

What about Rhodian slingers? They are pretty good, specially when heading east to fight armoured infantry/cavalry, and have some armour against missile attacks. The only problem is that they can only be recruited in Rhodes.

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The main strength of Rhodian Slingers is their range. They can shoot a stone 195 meters, which is almost as much as the range of Skythian Foot Archers. Balearic's do more damage with their stones, but their range is less, about 175 meters. I would argue overall Rhodians are better though, as they also carry 30 stones instead of only 20. Given their range, relatively high stone attack, and ammo amount, Rhodians are probably the best slingers in the game, unless I'm forgetting another elite slinger unit.

One slinger (preferably Rhodian) and two Toxotai Kretakoi, two- three cavalry and the rest nice and heavy legionairres + allies; oh yes!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WinsingtonIII

The main strength of Rhodian Slingers is their range. They can shoot a stone 195 meters, which is almost as much as the range of Skythian Foot Archers. Balearics do more damage with their stones, but their range is less, about 175 meters. I would argue overall Rhodians are better though, as they also carry 30 stones instead of only 20. Given their range, relatively high stone attack, and ammo amount, Rhodians are probably the best slingers in the game, unless I'm forgetting another elite slinger unit.

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I agree with you. The only drawback of Rhodians (besides not being available as mercs) is their nigh-useless melee weapon. They fit my personal military doctrine best (high range and armour first).
Balearic Slingers carry a higher price tag, which is justified by higher attack, far better melee capabilities (def skill 9 as opposed to 6; much better lethality; AP attribute), and the best morale of all slingers. Still, their armour and shield (1 each) are piss poor compared to Rhodians. They are an elite equivalent of the Caucasian Archers - an all-out attack unit with decent (but not outstanding) range, but poor protection.

The best run-of-the-mill slingers are the Sphendonetai/Persians (same unit with different names and skins), followed by the Celtic guys.

The Gaul factions are pretty much better than Sweboz in MP battles. The cheap Neitos, slingers and naked dudes can easily bash through any German line easily in my experience.

Celtic slingers are great, I always use a few of those. But really, all slingers are useful, unlike some archers. Most regions with crappy archers aren't far from an area where you can get Cretan Archers, so what's the point in even using the crappy ones? All slingers are great though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Unintended BM

Celtic slingers are great, I always use a few of those. But really, all slingers are useful, unlike some archers. Most regions with crappy archers aren't far from an area where you can get Cretan Archers, so what's the point in even using the crappy ones? All slingers are great though.

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You can hire many toxotai for the money it takes to hire a few toxotai kretikoi. Take the initiative in the battle; don't let the battle come to you, but rather take the battle to your opposition. In close range, your numerous archers will prove that their blood was worth something.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vartan

You can hire many toxotai for the money it takes to hire a few toxotai kretikoi. Take the initiative in the battle; don't let the battle come to you, but rather take the battle to your opposition. In close range, your numerous archers will prove that their blood was worth something.

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But if you're in an area where you can hire tons of toxotai, you might as well just hire tons of sphendonetai. They only have 1 less missile attack than toxotai, their range is significantly longer than toxotai, and their attack is of course armor piercing. Plus, they carry twice as much ammunition as toxotai, and toxotai only have a unit number equal to slingers anyways.

In my personal campaign experiences, sphendonetai are consistently more useful than toxotai, and judging by the stats, it makes a lot of sense. The only situation where massed toxotai might be more effective than massed sphendonetai is if the enemy brought only unarmored troops, and even then I'm not so sure, because the difference in attack is pretty marginal and may be outweighed by the range and ammo differences.

Depends on whether you use slingers historically. I.e. putting them right out in front of the army, or right out on the wings for enfilading fire. (Where they are vulnerable both to enemy missiles and to enemy cavalry charges.)

(The Romans, to be different, had the Accensi right at the rear of the army, where in actuality they wouldn't see any action in a normal battle that was going well for the Roman side - they were a reserve to help the Triarii in case everything went pear-shaped and the rest of the army ran away.)

Archers have one advantage over slingers - you can put them behind your army, and they can safely fire over the heads of a protective line of infantry in front of them.

IMO, in EB, losses from slinger 'friendly fire' if they shoot from behind a friendly unit should be MUCH higher - since that would be downright dangerous if you did it in real life, telling slingers to aim over the heads of friendly men in front of them! So firing with slingers placed behind a friendly unit is an 'exploit', IMO.

Not just that Stu. The toxotai can use flaming arrows to demoralize enemy units. The best option would be to combine and have both slingers as well as archers in one's army. We already know slingers pierce armour and flaming arrows demoralize enemy troops.

EDIT: Scato mentioned one critical thing and that is how archers can be positioned behind your own troops as their trajectory is higher than slinger trajectory.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vartan

Not just that Stu. The toxotai can use flaming arrows to demoralize enemy units. The best option would be to combine and have both slingers as well as archers in one's army. We already know slingers pierce armour and flaming arrows demoralize enemy troops.

EDIT: Scato mentioned one critical thing and that is how archers can be positioned behind your own troops as their trajectory is higher than slinger trajectory.

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I usually try and have both slingers and archers, however, I almost never use toxotai, if I'm campaigning in Hellas I'll just recruit merc Kretans, and everywhere else that has toxotai available generally has a better alternative nearby (Skythians, Syrians, Persians, etc. are all near/in areas where toxotai are recruitable). Truth be told I only use flaming arrows very rarely anyways, so I tend to see sphendonetai as all around more useful than toxotai for me personally, but obviously, others may have different tactics.

Scato, that is a good point about friendly fire, I didn't really think about how the game allows that. I'll admit I do generally take advantage of that exploit, usually without really thinking about it.

Toxotai happen to be a truly terrible archer unit, especially when you take their recruitment area into consideration. To the East lies vast expense of Asia, filled with all sorts of nasty characters with terrifyingly powerful weapons. To the North are the massive forests which reduce their effectiveness to nil. The only faction they can stand toe to toe with are the Romans, who don't even have their own archers. Truly a sad, sad existance.

Arrows will still cause plenty of friendly fire if they're too close to the melee. But slingers fire their bullets at a nearly flat trajectory regardless of distance, so there is no alternative.

Throw at me all the slingers you have. You shall have no room to talk once your slingers are lying on the ground because they have been shot down by arrows. They are for winning the missile fight and overall against barely armoured units. (Note: When it comes to units, among other aspects of the game, 99 percent of my brain is thinking from a multiplayer point of view, so you'll have to excuse me.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WinsingtonIII

Truth be told I only use flaming arrows very rarely anyways

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To be historical, my house rule is that I only use flaming arrows when I'm defending. When you're defending a fixed position, and the archers just wait for the enemy to come into range, the fires (braziers, hot coals, or trench filled with burning oil) that they need to light their arrows are right there, just where they want them. But the archers couldn't realistically run around carrying those fires around with them. So if the archers move position, I imagine they move away from their fires and therefore they can't fire flaming arrows anymore.

Simply put, I roleplay that archers can only fire flaming arrows as long as they don't move after the battle starts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Titus Marcellus Scato

To be historical, my house rule is that I only use flaming arrows when I'm defending. When you're defending a fixed position, and the archers just wait for the enemy to come into range, the fires (braziers, hot coals, or trench filled with burning oil) that they need to light their arrows are right there, just where they want them. But the archers couldn't realistically run around carrying those fires around with them. So if the archers move position, I imagine they move away from their fires and therefore they can't fire flaming arrows anymore.

Simply put, I roleplay that archers can only fire flaming arrows as long as they don't move after the battle starts.

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Interesting aspect of roleplaying..... :idea: :thumbsup:
Well, did they don't have matches at that time?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cute Wolf

Interesting aspect of roleplaying..... :idea: :thumbsup:
Well, did they don't have matches at that time?

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Nope, no matches. They had flaming torches, but you can't hold a lighted torch and fire a bow at the same time, so the archers would need a slave to carry the torch. You'd probably need one torchbearer for every 4 archers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Titus Marcellus Scato

Simply put, I roleplay that archers can only fire flaming arrows as long as they don't move after the battle starts.

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There are many things EB's MP veterans would be upset about if they saw it occur in battle, but going around using flaming arrows wouldn't be one of them. It would be just fine!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vartan

Throw at me all the slingers you have. You shall have no room to talk once your slingers are lying on the ground because they have been shot down by arrows. They are for winning the missile fight and overall against barely armoured units. (Note: When it comes to units, among other aspects of the game, 99 percent of my brain is thinking from a multiplayer point of view, so you'll have to excuse me.)

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I'm pretty sure sphendonetai can defeat toxotai in a missile duel...

Most archers will certainly defeat most slingers in a missle duel, but I'm saying that sphendonetai specifically are better than toxotai specifically, and I stand by that statement, because toxotai are terrible.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vartan

There are many things EB's MP veterans would be upset about if they saw it occur in battle, but going around using flaming arrows wouldn't be one of them. It would be just fine!

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Those are really, people used to win every single battle in campaing and then frustrating when they see that a player outsmart them! I mean... to say that clicking benind a phalanx to make your units run threw is cheating, ok (though i've some issue with that one too) but to say that fire missile is treachin... I mean common, what's the next step? soon we'll hear... Ha no, you cannot use heavy infantry against my Legions, it's cheating. Fire arrows is a ''special ability'' and ought to bu used wherever and whenever the player wants. If it dosen't make sens for some of u, well, use your imagination and imagine there's 1 slave per 5 archer carrying touch and that's it... The hell with cheating dad gummit

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Duguntz

Those are really, people used to win every single battle in campaing and then frustrating when they see that a player outsmart them! I mean... to say that clicking benind a phalanx to make your units run threw is cheating, ok (though i've some issue with that one too) but to say that fire missile is treachin... I mean common, what's the next step? soon we'll hear... Ha no, you cannot use heavy infantry against my Legions, it's cheating. Fire arrows is a ''special ability'' and ought to bu used wherever and whenever the player wants. If it dosen't make sens for some of u, well, use your imagination and imagine there's 1 slave per 5 archer carrying touch and that's it... The hell with cheating dad gummit

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I'm relativley sure Vartan told us to use flaming arrows is no problem in multiplayer ;-).

Yeah. The barb charging tactics we use involve 1 unit with fire arrows.

If we were to complain about anything it would be that fear penalties don't rely on numbers so 1 set of flaming arrows or 1 unit of Gaesatae scares pretty much all units in a certain radius that is about 1/2 your main line.

I'm not saying it's cheating to use flaming arrows. Just that I like to roleplay these things, some people don't, that's fine. Each to their own.

My understanding of fire arrows is that their use was relatively rare - it was much more common for archers to fire an ordinary arrow than a flaming one. Otherwise accounts of ancient battles involving archers would nearly always include descriptions of flaming arrows streaking across the sky. If it was easy to fire flaming arrows, you'd want to use them most of the time because they are scary, and demoralise poorly-disciplined enemy troops. But relatively few accounts of ancient battles specify that flaming arrows were used, so I assume that they were relatively rarely used because using them was not easy for some reason, and firing ordinary arrows is much easier and faster.

My houserule just enables me to keep my use of fire arrows to a minimum, and not use them all the time to scare the AI troops and give me easy victories.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by antisocialmunky

Yeah. The barb charging tactics we use involve 1 unit with fire arrows.

If we were to complain about anything it would be that fear penalties don't rely on numbers so 1 set of flaming arrows or 1 unit of Gaesatae scares pretty much all units in a certain radius that is about 1/2 your main line.

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So it does not make sence to use more than one scaring unit in your army?

It does make sens to use more than one, if you fight on a large area. keep them far from missile though! in general i use 2 scary units in ambush... in the heat of battle when moral is depleted on both side, i spring those fear units... in general, the ennemy rout... one at each end of the battle line... plus a xtrong center as i don't know if those in the center are affected by the ''fear radius''.

And for my older post, yeah, I tought Vartan was speaking about those who'd think it's cheating to use flamming arrows... it's my mistake, sorry!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kival

So it does not make sence to use more than one scaring unit in your army?

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Save it for the visitor message page Duguntz. And Kival it doesn't make sense* unless you realize that no unit is unstoppable. If your scary unit routs, what scary units have you left?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vartan

(...)make sense*

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Ups. Thanks, I make that mistake far to often... Nonetheless, it is a good idea to have some additional fear unit in your backhand but i did want to know if you get a bonus for more than one unit at the same moment.

On my newest Roman campaign, the Gauls still rout really quickly, but it's nearly impossible to get low casualties. They don't fight for long, but they do some damage for the short time they fight.