Knife Fighting

Hey all, I am looking to get a knife fighting expert to come down to my TKD club and give a seminar some time. I was wondering, what are some really good knife fighting systems? From what I have seen, Eskrima and different styles of Silat look like they have some really good stuff for knife fighting, but I was wondering if you knew of any other that I could check into. (or if you could give an opinion on which would better be suited to modern knife defense)
Knife fighting seems to be one of those things that gets overlooked in most popular MAs in the US, so I was thinking of giving the club members (and myself) a rounder education on it.

When I was younger I used to think myself quite the bad ass and I hung out with a far different social class than my own economic situation and upbrining would naturally place me in. I witnessed a knife fight once. Thank god no one died but it appeared as though its random slashing with not very much finesse. Blade length prevents more coordination of specific moves and counters and the dirty nature by which you would come to a knife fight prevents any sort of real skill. Most of these knife fighting experts are mostly nonsense, if you find yourself in a knife fight you can do one thing, run. Barring this try to make some form of guard for your off wrist and absorb blows with this while dealing damage with your knife hand. And thirdly stab as well as slash. I guarantee 90 percent of people in knife fights slash wildly the other ten percent are people trained to kill.

In other words knife fights have no real defense beside being quicker and disabling your opponent first.

I too would like to know this. I think HEMA focus on knifefighting quite a bit but I don't know many places that teach them.

If memory serves you are in Wisconsin. Try this guy: http://www.modernarnis-wi.com/ . I have yet to run into a modern arnis instructor who doesn't know his stuff and is good at what he does.

Silat is very hard to find someone who is the real deal and not a LARPer. As with anything, you'll want to validate any potential guest instructor from any system before you bring them in, if you care about quality of instruction and material. Any instructor should readily be able to state what their degrees are in and whom they hold them under. Beware 5-6th degree BB's on up, most often those are retards who have "created" their own system and promoted themselves to grand master/soke/sijo/grand wizard, whatever, or members of an organization that has very questionable promotion standards, such as WTF and ATA TKD. Also beware systems riddled with foolishness and LARPery, such as the Booj (bujinkan ninjers).

Finally, one of these days we're going to have to have the "Why Vuk has drank the koolaid" discussion about t3h d34dly chun.

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Originally Posted by Centurion1

When I was younger I used to think myself quite the bad ass and I hung out with a far different social class than my own economic situation and upbrining would naturally place me in. I witnessed a knife fight once. Thank god no one died but it appeared as though its random slashing with not very much finesse. Blade length prevents more coordination of specific moves and counters and the dirty nature by which you would come to a knife fight prevents any sort of real skill. Most of these knife fighting experts are mostly nonsense, if you find yourself in a knife fight you can do one thing, run. Barring this try to make some form of guard for your off wrist and absorb blows with this while dealing damage with your knife hand. And thirdly stab as well as slash. I guarantee 90 percent of people in knife fights slash wildly the other ten percent are people trained to kill.

In other words knife fights have no real defense beside being quicker and disabling your opponent first.

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I don't know, there is always a better way to do something than randomly, wildly moving.

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Originally Posted by Whacker

If memory serves you are in Wisconsin. Try this guy: http://www.modernarnis-wi.com/ . I have yet to run into a modern arnis instructor who doesn't know his stuff and is good at what he does.

Silat is very hard to find someone who is the real deal and not a LARPer. As with anything, you'll want to validate any potential guest instructor from any system before you bring them in, if you care about quality of instruction and material. Any instructor should readily be able to state what their degrees are in and whom they hold them under. Beware 5-6th degree BB's on up, most often those are retards who have "created" their own system and promoted themselves to grand master/soke/sijo/grand wizard, whatever, or members of an organization that has very questionable promotion standards, such as WTF and ATA TKD. Also beware systems riddled with foolishness and LARPery, such as the Booj (bujinkan ninjers).

Finally, one of these days we're going to have to have the "Why Vuk has drank the koolaid" discussion about t3h d34dly chun.

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Thanks, I will check him out. I have heard about Arnis, isn't it just Escrima? Bujinkan Ninjers? Are you serious? :P
lol, what do you have against Wing Tsun? It is Wing Tsun (WT) I study BTW, not Wing Chun (WC). The WC styles are mostly very different than the WT styles. Which style do you think is a better one to study in order to prepare yourself for a real fight? :P I have yet to find one better than WT.

The only advice I know about knife fighting (besides; don't get in one) is to bring a gun.

As I understand it, if you get in a knife fight, you are going to get cut. I've seen some fancy knife disarming moves instruction, but they all seem to rely on the attacker over committing with a strong stab or wide slash.

CR

The only thing I ever fight with a knife is a watermelon.


Why would you want to know how to knife-fight?

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

The only thing I ever fight with a knife is a watermelon.


Why would you want to know how to knife-fight?

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I am well aware that it is a bad idea to bring a knife to a fight. Some times though, someone else does, and you need to know how to defeat him. Defense against knives is pretty important, as there are lots of knife attacks.

Didn't go all that well last time, ouch, RUN. Jiu Jitsu has some good disarming techniques, handlock in particular

Lots of yes's and one qualified no.

1. Yes, don't get in one to begin with.

2. Yes, if you are forced, then run like hell.

3. Yes, if you get held up just give them your cash.

4. Yes, if you get in a knife fight you WILL get cut.

5. Yes and no, you can bring a gun, but depending on how close the assailant is to you and if they've already deployed the weapon, you're hosed. I think the average agreed distance is 20 ft for a gun to become largely irrelevant.

All things said and done, IF I were forced into a situation where I couldn't just run (say family was with me) and someone else had a knife, I'd rather at least have some basic knowledge and training down than nothing. I've done some pressure testing at a friend's kwoon (he's a Wun Hop Ken Do black belt under Al Dascascos) with the blunt aluminum training knives, and let me tell you how much of an eye opener that was. It resoundingly reinforced points 1 through 4.

@ Vuk - Come to the chat sometime. Disco and I will get you straightened out. :)

Keep Nunchuks inside your shirt or in your waistband. Beat people up Bruce Lee style.

I always thought the best defense in a knife fight is to wear chain mail, full plate is better but a bit unwieldy for partying and doing your job, shopping etc.
Other than that I'm not going to help you with your planned gang fights, Vuk. ~;)

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Originally Posted by Just Vuk Again

I am well aware that it is a bad idea to bring a knife to a fight. Some times though, someone else does, and you need to know how to defeat him. Defense against knives is pretty important, as there are lots of knife attacks.

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If you wish to learn about defense versus people with knives, then you should concider martial arts instead. From many of those you would be able to learn about defensive stances as well as counter strikes. Aikido for one, is an option there

*Bashing face on desk* No no no no NO NO NO!!! NOT Aikido. Hell no. One of the most useless "dead" "martial arts" there is right now.

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Originally Posted by God Emperor

If you wish to learn about defense versus people with knives, then you should concider martial arts instead. From many of those you would be able to learn about defensive stances as well as counter strikes. Aikido for one, is an option there

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Our Vukkie is quite the martial arts expert, we don't really like him but he can beat us all so we pretend.

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Originally Posted by Whacker

Lots of yes's and one qualified no.

1. Yes, don't get in one to begin with.

2. Yes, if you are forced, then run like hell.

3. Yes, if you get held up just give them your cash.

4. Yes, if you get in a knife fight you WILL get cut.

5. Yes and no, you can bring a gun, but depending on how close the assailant is to you and if they've already deployed the weapon, you're hosed. I think the average agreed distance is 20 ft for a gun to become largely irrelevant.

All things said and done, IF I were forced into a situation where I couldn't just run (say family was with me) and someone else had a knife, I'd rather at least have some basic knowledge and training down than nothing. I've done some pressure testing at a friend's kwoon (he's a Wun Hop Ken Do black belt under Al Dascascos) with the blunt aluminum training knives, and let me tell you how much of an eye opener that was. It resoundingly reinforced points 1 through 4.

@ Vuk - Come to the chat sometime. Disco and I will get you straightened out. :)

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Yeah, I was talking to a Taekwondo Grandmaster in the area who runs testing for my school, and he used to study several different knife fighting styles. He told me that unless you have a knife yourself, you will almost definately get cut, and have a good chance of being seriously injured. He did say however that training could greatly increase your chances of staying alive.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Didn't go all that well last time, ouch, RUN. Jiu Jitsu has some good disarming techniques, handlock in particular

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Honestly, of all the martial arts in the world, I probably have less respect for JJ than any other. :P I once got to trade pointers with a BJJ master in Madison, and even when I agreed not to strike, he still could not defeat me (and I have no grappling training). That was third encounter with a JJist, and it reinforced in my mind the uselessness of JJ against someone who knew what they were doing.
(prepares to be flamed by MMA fans :P)

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Originally Posted by God Emperor

If you wish to learn about defense versus people with knives, then you should concider martial arts instead. From many of those you would be able to learn about defensive stances as well as counter strikes. Aikido for one, is an option there

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lol, I know. I have learned SOME stuff about knife defense from my barehands martial arts, but I was looking for something more geared toward defeating someone with a knife.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Our Vukkie is quite the martial arts expert, we don't really like him but he can beat us all so we pretend.

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lol, actually, I am not. I like them, but I am no expert. You don't love me?! Was it all a lie then? Didn't last night mean anything to you?! ~;)

It was kinda interesting untill I woked up naked in a ditch. BRUISED. JJ is actually kinda good here since you step in, he can't slash anymore and stabbing is harder, leggie behind + push + gravity = win. Didn't work out all that well for me but still.

Bring a bigger knife and go straight for the guts? I haven't really got into a fight for a few years though, increasingly I find violence distasteful.

I blame Jesus for that, spoil sport.

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Originally Posted by Whacker

*Bashing face on desk* No no no no NO NO NO!!! NOT Aikido. Hell no. One of the most useless "dead" "martial arts" there is right now.

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Why no Aikido?

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Our Vukkie is quite the martial arts expert, we don't really like him but he can beat us all so we pretend.

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Haha, good one.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

increasingly I find violence distasteful.

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You have a good point, but for some reason, that sounds very strange.

Krav Maga could be an option.
Not as fancy as those you have mentioned, but none the less effective ... unless you are up against a MJK or similar.

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Originally Posted by Sigurd

Krav Maga could be an option.
Not as fancy as those you have mentioned, but none the less effective ... unless you are up against a MJK or similar.

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Yeah, I have a lot of respect for Krav Maga. I am not sure what type of a focus they have on knife defense though. I know that they put a lot of emphasis on dealing with gun attacks.
MJK? Norwegian special forces? I doubt that I am going to go up against any of them any time soon. :P

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Originally Posted by edyzmedieval

Why no Aikido?

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Because it's a joke? Because it's really a cultural study into Japanese society far more than having any real application?

Sure it teaches a few joint locks, but then again so do dozens of other workable martial arts. The problem is that it doesn't teach fighting. I challenge you to find me actual footage of aikido being used in a situation and that works, and not just some lame compliant or semi-compliant LARPery where the ukes throw themselves around.

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Originally Posted by Whacker

Because it's a joke? Because it's really a cultural study into Japanese society far more than having any real application?

Sure it teaches a few joint locks, but then again so do dozens of other workable martial arts. The problem is that it doesn't teach fighting. I challenge you to find me actual footage of aikido being used in a situation and that works, and not just some lame compliant or semi-compliant LARPery where the ukes throw themselves around.

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lol, while I do agree with you mostly on this, you could be slightly more respectful about it. ~;)
That said, I am not a fan of Japanese bare-hand martial arts. With the exception of Judo, I do not think that they are very practical. As a rule, Japanese martial arts are inferior to Chinese martial arts. I will give it to the Japanese that they have an admirable weapons martial tradition, but that said, so does China. :P Karate/Taekwondo, Jujitsu, and even to an extent, Judo are not really practical for self-defense. First of all, they are all limited to one specialization or another, which means that you are only learning a bit of what you need to know. Second of all, they are lacking the sophistication of a lot of Kung Fu. Even Judo (the only Japanese martial art that I really like) relies on being able to catch or evade people's attacks. Some times they are faster than you, and some times that is not an option. It also relies on them not striking or fighting back as you try to throw them, which is not realistic.
Chinese martial arts are to Asia what Greek martial arts are to Europe. They originated there, and reached a much higher level of perfection. British and Japanese martial arts were never as good as Greek and Chinese.

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Originally Posted by Just Vuk Again

lol, while I do agree with you mostly on this, you could be slightly more respectful about it. ~;)

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I have zero respect for a so called 'martial art' that is completely ineffective.

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As a rule, Japanese martial arts are inferior to Chinese martial arts. (...) Karate/Taekwondo, Jujitsu, and even to an extent, Judo are not really practical for self-defense.

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Where do you come up with this stuff?

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First of all, they are all limited to one specialization or another, which means that you are only learning a bit of what you need to know.

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No.

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Second of all, they are lacking the sophistication of a lot of Kung Fu.

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Complexity doesn't work under pressure. Why do you think there aren't any chunners or kung fooey guys in MMA? Hint: it's not because they're "too deadly", and the "it's designed for the streets" argument is as old and tired as the fools who spout it. MMA *is* the proving ground for effectiveness in martial arts. The only example I can give you of a chunner who has made it work effectively is Alan Orr, and he also cross trains.

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Even Judo (the only Japanese martial art that I really like) relies on being able to catch or evade people's attacks. Some times they are faster than you, and some times that is not an option. It also relies on them not striking or fighting back as you try to throw them, which is not realistic.

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You clearly don't understand judo at all. None of your statements are true.

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Chinese martial arts are to Asia what Greek martial arts are to Europe. They originated there, and reached a much higher level of perfection. British and Japanese martial arts were never as good as Greek and Chinese.

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*Brain shutting down* I really don't know where you get this stuff. Especially since you said you did boxing when you were younger AND you did judo for a semester. Oh well. We talked about it in the chat.

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Originally Posted by Whacker

I have zero respect for a so called 'martial art' that is completely ineffective.



Where do you come up with this stuff?



No.



Complexity doesn't work under pressure. Why do you think there aren't any chunners or kung fooey guys in MMA? Hint: it's not because they're "too deadly", and the "it's designed for the streets" argument is as old and tired as the fools who spout it. MMA *is* the proving ground for effectiveness in martial arts. The only example I can give you of a chunner who has made it work effectively is Alan Orr, and he also cross trains.



You clearly don't understand judo at all. None of your statements are true.



*Brain shutting down* I really don't know where you get this stuff. Especially since you said you did boxing when you were younger AND you did judo for a semester. Oh well. We talked about it in the chat.

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First of all, I never said complex, I said sophisticated. When I say sophisticated, I mean the technical excellence of the principles and techniques, and the ability of the techniques (when used according to the corresponding principles) to be effective in a variety of situations. One of the most important parts of technical excellence is simplicity. (you know how the old saying goes)
In fact, it is the simplicity of WT that makes it so effective, and that makes me love it so much.
Why don't you want to hear it? Because you know it is the truth? The same thing that makes boxing so effective is what allows TKDist to jump around kicking each other. It is the rules. If you take the rules away, a fight is completely different. Would those MMA guys be able to go on if they got one of those punches to the throat? Would a TKDist be able to go on if he got a kick to the groin? Of course not. There is a massive difference between a combat sport and an actual fight. You should know that. You say that you don't like hearing that argument, but you never explain why it is not a good argument.

I am not an expert of Judo, that is true. In fact, I know very, very little about it. That said though, I have a basic knowledge, and I have sparred with Judoists before, and none of them could use their Judo to any avail, so that speaks for itself in my mind. I once asked one how he would counter a simple straight punch, and he showed me a move where he grabbed my arm and threw me to the ground. I asked him to try to stop one punch, and I got three to his throat and pulled back before he even got his hands up. At least in their class, they do not train to catch fast punches, so how could they ever do it when it counts.
So what, just because I did boxing I have to defend it? lol, I am a little more open minded than that. Boxing is fine, and I have nothing against it, but a skilled practitioner of say, Pankration would destroy a boxer. Pankration encompasses so much more, and (in some forms at least) is not a combat sport. Boxing and Wrestling are not on the same level as Pankration, just as Jujitsu and Karate are not on the same level as WT.
I have seen martial arts like Krav Maga, Pankration, and Wing Tsun work, and I know that they are effective. In fact, I have seen them defeat practitioners of popular UFC martial arts as well as Budo martial arts.
I have heard plenty of people make convincing arguments on both sides, so I am going to go with what I have seen to work, and unless someone can show me otherwise, I am afraid that I am not going to change my mind. Talk is just talk.


EDIT: Oh, and BTW, I have nothing against cross-training. In fact, I do it myself. It does not mean that I think that TKD is more practical in a street fight, but simply because I enjoy its other benefits. The same is true about Taijiquan.

There is no need for argument! We have all the proof we need right here to determine that Wing Tsun can defeat popular MMA styles (such as Muay Thai)!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcaqH8fb--c
lol, seriously though, back to the subject of the thread, does anyone know any other effective styles for dealing with knife attacks? I want to do research into as many as possible.

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Originally Posted by Just Vuk Again

There is no need for argument! We have all the proof we need right here to determine that Wing Tsun can defeat popular MMA styles (such as Muay Thai)!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcaqH8fb--c
lol, seriously though, back to the subject of the thread, does anyone know any other effective styles for dealing with knife attacks? I want to do research into as many as possible.

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Dude, you just PROVED that the jits > *.

O W N T

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Originally Posted by Just Vuk Again

First of all, I never said complex, I said sophisticated. When I say sophisticated, I mean the technical excellence of the principles and techniques, and the ability of the techniques (when used according to the corresponding principles) to be effective in a variety of situations. One of the most important parts of technical excellence is simplicity. (you know how the old saying goes)
In fact, it is the simplicity of WT that makes it so effective, and that makes me love it so much.
Why don't you want to hear it? Because you know it is the truth? The same thing that makes boxing so effective is what allows TKDist to jump around kicking each other. It is the rules. If you take the rules away, a fight is completely different. Would those MMA guys be able to go on if they got one of those punches to the throat? Would a TKDist be able to go on if he got a kick to the groin? Of course not. There is a massive difference between a combat sport and an actual fight. You should know that. You say that you don't like hearing that argument, but you never explain why it is not a good argument.

I am not an expert of Judo, that is true. In fact, I know very, very little about it. That said though, I have a basic knowledge, and I have sparred with Judoists before, and none of them could use their Judo to any avail, so that speaks for itself in my mind. I once asked one how he would counter a simple straight punch, and he showed me a move where he grabbed my arm and threw me to the ground. I asked him to try to stop one punch, and I got three to his throat and pulled back before he even got his hands up. At least in their class, they do not train to catch fast punches, so how could they ever do it when it counts.
So what, just because I did boxing I have to defend it? lol, I am a little more open minded than that. Boxing is fine, and I have nothing against it, but a skilled practitioner of say, Pankration would destroy a boxer. Pankration encompasses so much more, and (in some forms at least) is not a combat sport. Boxing and Wrestling are not on the same level as Pankration, just as Jujitsu and Karate are not on the same level as WT.
I have seen martial arts like Krav Maga, Pankration, and Wing Tsun work, and I know that they are effective. In fact, I have seen them defeat practitioners of popular UFC martial arts as well as Budo martial arts.
I have heard plenty of people make convincing arguments on both sides, so I am going to go with what I have seen to work, and unless someone can show me otherwise, I am afraid that I am not going to change my mind. Talk is just talk.


EDIT: Oh, and BTW, I have nothing against cross-training. In fact, I do it myself. It does not mean that I think that TKD is more practical in a street fight, but simply because I enjoy its other benefits. The same is true about Taijiquan.

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In defence of all European martial arts, I have to point out that boxing and wrestling are not among them. Both are designed for settling arguments in a non lethal way (though breaking someone's back in wrestling was popular in some places), not combat.

Right, carry on boys.....

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

In defence of all European martial arts, I have to point out that boxing and wrestling are not among them. Both are designed for settling arguments in a non lethal way (though breaking someone's back in wrestling was popular in some places), not combat.

Right, carry on boys.....

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Wrong. Carry on. :)

1. Assume the guy with the knife isn't proficient in martial arts (why else does he have a knife?).
2. Assume the guy isn't trained in the proper use of the knife (otherwise, you are just screwed anyway).
3. Find a makeshift parrying/entangling device, like a jacket, for quick protection/distraction, go for his knee, and get out as fast as you can. His focus will be on the knife, he thinks your focus will be on the knife. Hopefully you will only get one or two slashes.
4. ???
5. Profit!

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Originally Posted by Whacker

Wrong. Carry on. :)

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Do you know anything about medieval martial arts, armed or un-armed?

Modern boxing is a sport, just like modern wrestling or fencing. There is a disconnect between the modern European martial tradition and its medieval roots, hence the loss of utility and focus on formalism. As a modern fencer I can tell you that even Epee is of limited use as a form of Defence, Epeeists get hit far too often, bouts are very short, and they generally lack either finesse or focus compared to 50 years ago even.

The Rapier has only come back into use as a weapon in about the last ten years.

Gentlemen,

While we are hashing out which super-form is deadliest and casting stones at martial masters, could someone please resolve: Pirate or ninja?

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...sorpirates.jpg

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Originally Posted by Lemur

Gentlemen,

While we are hashing out which super-form is deadliest and casting stones at martial masters, could someone please resolve: Pirate or ninja?

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...sorpirates.jpg

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Depends, does the nija have a cannon?

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Originally Posted by Lemur

Gentlemen,

While we are hashing out which super-form is deadliest and casting stones at martial masters, could someone please resolve: Pirate or ninja?

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...sorpirates.jpg

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lmao, I am surprised that Deadliest Warrior did not do that one. :P

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Depends, does the nija have a cannon?

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No, the ninja has a knife. The pirate studied martial arts while in the orient.

edit

or

scenerio #2

The priate comes at the ninja with a cutlass and the ninja uses martial arts to fend him off!

Actually, I saw scenerio #2 in a movie once with Michael Keane in it, can't remember what it was called though. I think it was Michael Keane...

edit2

Under further consideration, I would seem that my attempt at wit has failed...*cutting belly with knife*

Pirates ftw. They say YARRR all the time and they work towards the procurement and enjoyment of booty.

Pirate wins, with his gold he can hire 10 ninja's

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Pirate wins, with his gold he can hire 10 ninja's

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Conservation Of Ninjutsu wrecks that plan :chucks: